Karl livid with Thomas for role in brawl

[GrandeDavid]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6286254?FSO1&ATT=HMA

DENVER (AP) - George Karl blasted Knicks coach Isiah Thomas for his role in the brawl between New York and the Nuggets, calling him a "jerk" who acted despicably by blaming Denver for the fight.

"He should be accountable for what his actions are," Karl said.

Karl was livid with Thomas for telling Carmelo Anthony not to go into the lane in the final minute-plus of the Nuggets' 123-100 win at Madison Square Garden on Saturday night. Ten players were ejected after Mardy Collins' hard foul on J.R. Smith started the fight.

Karl also said Thomas' actions "after the game were despicable."

"There's no question in my mind it was premeditated," Karl said in an obscenity-laced news conference on Denver's practice court Monday morning. "He made a bad situation worse. He's a jerk for what he's trying to do."

Thomas maintained that it wasn't what he said or didn't say to Anthony, but Karl's actions at the end of the game that may have instigated the brawl. Thomas felt Karl should've taken his starters out before the Nuggets were up nearly 20 points.

"I can't speak for him, but he put his players in a tough situation," Thomas said Monday morning. "I'm not here to place blame, we all shared in it."

When informed that Thomas wasn't suspended by the league for his role, Karl just shook his head. He lost his two leading scorers when commissioner David Stern handed out the suspensions - Anthony for 15 games and Smith for 10 games.

"If that's the truth (about Thomas) then there's no question it was wrong," Karl said.

Stern said he'd talk to the Nuggets' organization about Karl's comments regarding Thomas.

"We believe that the heat of the moment allows certain overstepping of traditional bounds," Stern said. "We understand that we've got some original characters among our coaching staff and we allow a one-time outburst. But over time we have to realize that a lot of people are watching us, many of them young."

Karl and Thomas already had tension in their relationship over the way Larry Brown was fired by the Knicks. Karl and Brown are close friends.

But Thomas said he didn't mean to provoke anything Saturday.

"I just said to those guys (Anthony and Marcus Camby) that this isn't a way that you should act," Thomas said. "You shouldn't be rubbing it in, but it wasn't a threat. It was more like this isn't how you do it. It wasn't necessarily not to go to the basket but basically don't rub it in."

Karl claimed he wasn't doing that by leaving his starters in the game.

"Where were we running the score up?" he said. "He had the same team in the game that pressed us and trapped us and cut a 25-point lead to 10 in about two minutes. Same team. Same pressure. Same 3-point shooters. Exact same. He didn't throw in no towel. He didn't take his best team off the court and say, 'Hey, the game's over.' He never gave one (darn) signal to it. It's absurd."

Karl said he's seen big leads by the Nuggets evaporate before and wanted to guard against it. After losing three of the first four on the road trip, Karl wanted to make sure the Nuggets put the win away.

"My team has blown 10-point leads, 11-point leads with two minutes to go," Karl said. "I watched Utah blow a 12-point lead to Sacramento two nights before that with four minutes to go in the game and you're telling me that I'm running the score up?"

Karl fumed for a few seconds longer and then ended his news conference.

"I'm done," he said as he walked away.

[GrandeDavid]

The reason I have to agree with George Karl is because Isaiah Thomas has a horrible track record of being an idiot, such as the classless way in which he dealt with Bruce Bowen. If this clown is not fired within a month I'll be sick. I would be shocked and embarrassed at any team hiring this guy in the future.

[GrandeDavid]

May I also add that David Stern and Stu Jackson are idiots, too. I'm tired of Stern's "young people are watching us" crap. Dude, its 2006, the media is everywhere. Shut up with it already. That quote is tired. I don't want the NBA to be a bunch of thuggery, but I think by and large the players compose themselves pretty well on and off the court in the NBA. It will never be squeaky clean as he wants.

Stu Jackson is a freaking fool for calling Bruce Bowen about his defensive tactics.

And Stern and Jackson can lick each others' asses for not at least reprimanding Isaiah Thomas for his actions during the Spurs game and also in instigating this brawl, possibly.

[JMarkJohns]

Karl shouldn't have had his starters in with a 20-point lead with around 90 seconds to play when the Knicks had already pulled their own starters.

Karl doesn't have his starters in running the score up with transition dunk after transition dunk attempt, then perhaps none of this happens.

Karl was certainly running up the score. Why, who knows, but despite not knowing the reason, one can't deny it's what was going on.

[boutons_]

December 19, 2006

As Thomas Takes Heat, Karl Escapes Scrutiny

By HARVEY ARATON

Isiah Thomas is the human piñata in New York, and little that has happened in what is supposed to be his last stand of a season speaks for the defense of his tenure running the Knicks. But he wasn’t the only coach at Madison Square Garden on Saturday night putting a personal agenda ahead of his team and the welfare of the sport. He didn’t lay all the landmines by himself.

George Karl knew what he was doing when he kept his starters on the court into the last two minutes of the Nuggets’ blowout victory. He understood he was trampling on Thomas’s increasingly fragile sense of security, taunting the inner Bad Boy, for whom Karl has a contempt that was made so profanely obvious yesterday at a news conference in Denver.

And for what? That is the question the Nuggets’ owner, Stan Kroenke, should have been screaming at Karl yesterday after the league’s leading scorer and his most indispensable player, Carmelo Anthony, bore the brunt of Commissioner David Stern’s frustrations. A 15-game suspension for punching Mardy Collins, so Karl could make his juvenile little statement in memory of his friend Larry Brown? So he could kick the carcass that Thomas will be if more games do not end like last night’s spirited eight-man 97-96 overtime victory against Utah, on Stephon Marbury’s layup at the buzzer?

“I’ll swear on my children’s life that I never thought about running up the score,” Karl said yesterday. “I just wanted to win, get a big win on the road.”

Seventeen points? Twenty-three? What’s the difference to anyone not gullible enough to believe that nonsense? Karl has been a head coach in the N.B.A. for 19 years. He couldn’t read the danger? He had no idea what Thomas, whose Hall of Fame career has been pockmarked with altercations, is capable of when provoked?

We understand this is a professional sport, not youth soccer, but we’re not talking about considerations Karl owed Thomas or the Knicks. His obligation was to his organization and to his players, to weigh the infinitesimal odds of a Knicks rally against the potential consequences of the perception he created by not clearing his bench.

Coaches are paid to protect their players, given what they know about the combustibility of the young men who play a grueling contact sport, to evaluate the moment, risk versus reward.

“He put his players in a tough position,” Thomas said after denying that he ordered the hard foul on J. R. Smith by Collins, a rookie guard, or on anyone else.

Self-serving? No more so than Karl’s child-swearing piety. Thomas said his chat with Anthony preceding the brawl was paternal advice to “show some class.” Maybe. Maybe not, but without the kind of admission the former Temple coach John Chaney made in a similar situation a couple of years ago, or without a Knick to give Thomas up, who was going to prove his intent?

Not the lawyer in the commissioner’s chair. During Stern’s conference call to announce the suspensions of seven players and the $500,000 fines for each organization, he said there was no compelling evidence on which to suspend Thomas, who was back on the bench last night for his most gratifying victory of the season.

“Even in the N.B.A., there is presumption of innocence,” Stern said.

Many people in these parts already convicted Thomas because they want him fired — today, this moment — for failing to make salad out of the slop left behind by his predecessor, Scott Layden, the Jazz assistant coach who last night shook the hand of the Garden’s president, James L. Dolan, possibly in gratitude for his own dismissal three years ago.

For Karl, Thomas’s demise is another kind of moral imperative, what he deserves for the suffering inflicted on Brown, who collected a mere $28 million for tolerating Marbury & Company for one season. Karl and Brown are members in the North Carolina true-blue fraternity.

•

Stern suggested that Kroenke, the Nuggets’ owner, rein in his coach after a Denver reporter repeated some of the invective Karl spewed yesterday. Karl was obviously pained over the suspensions of Anthony and Smith, who got 10 games. But it was hardly out of character for Karl, a blowhard from way back, who once sneeringly described the hiring of Doc Rivers as head coach in Orlando, among other black players to comparable posts, as the “anointment of the young Afro-American coach.”

Karl apparently had the idea that only white journeymen like himself, 57 games under .500 in his first two jobs but still entitled to a third in Seattle, are entitled to practice the brain surgeon’s skills required to teach the high screen-and-roll.

Better Karl should learn to run onto the court and tackle his best player after he has set him up for the kind of trouble Anthony sadly found. Supposedly rehabilitated after some early behavioral missteps, Anthony was turned into an N.B.A. marketing linchpin, with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. Now he’s the guy who sucker-punched Collins and backpedaled in retreat.

Stern had more punishment to mete out, more explaining to do to a national news media always eager to excoriate his players while pro football stars pretty much get a free pass for criminality and antisocial acting out. Stern must wonder how much longer he will be haunted by an idea someone in his office came up with many years ago, an N.B.A.-produced video that christened Thomas and the Pistons of the late 1980s as the Bad Boys.

“We’re like a hockey team; everybody wants to see us fight,” Dennis Rodman said in the video introduction, and isn’t it amazing how many of the league’s image issues as a breeding ground for thugs — from the Pistons to Rodman in Chicago to the Malice at the Palace two years ago to Thomas on Saturday night — have derived from Detroit?

It’s been a continuing story for almost two decades now, coinciding with George Karl’s anointment as an N.B.A. coach. You’d have thought that a coach as erudite as Karl would have known that those who don’t learn from pro basketball history are doomed to repeat it.

E-mail: [email protected]

[MrChug]

I hate both coaches. Both were wrong and both did wrong. Not saying what Isaiah did was right, just what Karl was doing was a BIG no-no. Serves him right.

[JMarkJohns]

What happened with the Knicks likely doesn't if the Nuggets starters aren't on the floor. Karl was practically begging for something to happen.

[boutons_]

"practically begging"

Impossible! He swore on his own kids he wasn't doing anything wrong! :lol

[ponky]

What happened with the Knicks likely doesn't if the Nuggets starters aren't on the floor. Karl was practically begging for something to happen.


Bullshit. The two road games prior to this one, Karl left his starters in the game in the last minute of the game with a double-digit lead. He's made his point, explained it fully and the media should jump of the Larry Brown/George Karl lovefest hype. There weren't any fights in those other games so why was there one here? Because Isaiah's a little bitch who jumped to some assumption as to why Karl was leaving in his starters. It's not easy for some fans like Spurs fans who are used to seasoned vets closing a game and then sitting to understand the concept of a bunch of young players like the Nuggets who blow leads. I do remember this game the Spurs played against the Sonics a couple of years back when Parker was wet behind the ears, dang the way he nearly blew a double digit lead the Spurs had in the closing minutes of the game with all his turnovers. It's just a learning process for the young guys, doesn't matter if they're starters, Nuggets have still blown lots of leads. Isaiah has been sanctioned before by the NBA as a coach of the Pacers and for on-court altercations, it's nothing new but people have short-term memories.

[Bob Lanier]

There weren't any fights in those other games so why was there one here?
There wasn't! One open-handed slap does not a "fight" make.

[JMarkJohns]

What exactly was Karl doing? Isiah had the same line up in and was pressing full court.

Same lineup my ass... Look at the play-by-play. Curry and Crawford were removed mid-way through the fourth. Marbury was removed at the 2 minutes mark.

A quick look at the lineups playing, point differential and time remaining says that Thomas had conceded defeat and that Karl was ignoring this and chose to run the score up.

Knicks players on the floor from 2 minutes onward...
Nate Robinson (bench player)
Mardy Collins (bench player)
Jared Jefferies (spot starter)
Channing Frye (spot starter)
David Lee (bench player)

Nuggets players on the floor at same point in time...
Andre Miller (starter)
J.R. Smith (starter)
Carmelo Anthony (NBA's leading scorer)
Eduardo Najera (spot starter)
Marcus Camby (starter)

You tell me that Thomas hadn't conceded now...
You tell me that Karl wasn't running the score up, regardless of him playing his starters fully in prior games now...

I don't give two shakes about the Karl/Brown angle. That's ambiguous. No real truth could ever be known about it. But, what is known is Thomas removed his scorers and put a lineup consisting of mainly role players on the floor, thus conceding defeat while Karl ignored such and allowed his starters to continue playing the same, dunking, fast-breaking, etc...

If Karl does this routinely, then even more shame on him, but Karl is FLAT OUT lying about the lineups and Thomas never conceding.

Karl had the timeout at the two minute mark to remove some of his starters, and didn't. He had the Camby foul at the 1:30 mark to remove some of his starters, and didn't. He could have done so with a 17-point lead and a 19-point lead respectively.

No team with a lineup of bench players is coming back from 19 points in 90 seconds. Not gonna happen, so Karl can just shut the hell up about a comeback.

By the way, the Nuggets entered the fourth quarter with a 10 point lead, promtly built it to 14, before the Knicks cut it back to 10. That's the only "comeback" that was made by the Knicks in that period. After that, the deficit fluxuated from 14-to-20 and largely hovered around 16-to-20 from the 8 minute mark onward.

That game was over. Thomas new it. His players knew it. Worse off, Karl knew it and his players knew it and yet they kept pounding home just how much better they were than the Knicks... LOOK AT THE PLAY-BY-PLAY!!!

Karl is lying out his ass. Don't be so stupid as to believe one word he says.

[JamStone]

They're both jackasses.

I idolized Isiah Thomas growing up. But, he is a jackass. No denying it. No sugar-coating it. If he didn't want his team to get embarrassed, he should have told them to get more physical during the game instead of waiting for the last two minutes. Those players should have showed more pride before the fracas. I don't doubt Isiah Thomas told his guys to commit hard fouls. But, I don't believe he wanted them to start a brawl.

George Karl is an idiot. He knew what he was doing. And, for him to say otherwise is bullshit. You leave your starters out there in a blowout ON THE ROAD in someone else's stadium, you're asking for trouble. If one of his starters got seriously injured, what the hell would Karl's excuse be then? It's not like the starters were just getting the rebounds and walking the ball up the court and running down the clock. They were running fast break slam dunk drills. That's utterly ridiculous.


They're both jackasses. Nate Robinson is just as much a punk as Carmelo is. Those two could have gotten 40 games and I wouldn't have cared. Mardy Collins was wrong for what he did, but I understand why. He wanted to prove to his coach that he cared about getting embarrassed. He wanted to get Isiah to be (ironically enough) "proud" of him. And, JR Smith had every right to take offense to the foul. It's only Nate and Carmelo that really made the incident get out of hand.

Isiah should be held accountable a little bit. I'm just not sure how much. He may have ordered hard fouls on lay-ups and dunks. But, I'm pretty sure he didn't order them to get into a brawl.

And, George Karl is getting what he deserves for leaving his starters in that long. Now, he doesn't have Carmelo and JR Smith for a considerably long time.

Impressive win for the Nuggets last night against Washington. I'd be impressed if they went 6-9 in the 15 game stretch Carmelo's suspended for.

[JMarkJohns]

They're both jackasses.

I idolized Isiah Thomas growing up. But, he is a jackass. No denying it. No sugar-coating it. If he didn't want his team to get embarrassed, he should have told them to get more physical during the game instead of waiting for the last two minutes. Those players should have showed more pride before the fracas. I don't doubt Isiah Thomas told his guys to commit hard fouls. But, I don't believe he wanted them to start a brawl.

George Karl is an idiot. He knew what he was doing. And, for him to say otherwise is bullshit. You leave your starters out there in a blowout ON THE ROAD in someone else's stadium, you're asking for trouble. If one of his starters got seriously injured, what the hell would Karl's excuse be then? It's not like the starters were just getting the rebounds and walking the ball up the court and running down the clock. They were running fast break slam dunk drills. That's utterly ridiculous.


They're both jackasses. Nate Robinson is just as much a punk as Carmelo is. Those two could have gotten 40 games and I wouldn't have cared. Mardy Collins was wrong for what he did, but I understand why. He wanted to prove to his coach that he cared about getting embarrassed. He wanted to get Isiah to be (ironically enough) "proud" of him. And, JR Smith had every right to take offense to the foul. It's only Nate and Carmelo that really made the incident get out of hand.

Isiah should be held accountable a little bit. I'm just not sure how much. He may have ordered hard fouls on lay-ups and dunks. But, I'm pretty sure he didn't order them to get into a brawl.

And, George Karl is getting what he deserves for leaving his starters in that long. Now, he doesn't have Carmelo and JR Smith for a considerably long time.

Impressive win for the Nuggets last night against Washington. I'd be impressed if they went 6-9 in the 15 game stretch Carmelo's suspended for.

Agreed on every point. Karl, Thomas, just desserts... everything. Well put.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

i love it how people whinge about getting their butt kicked. Don't play professional ball if ur worried about getting beat bad.

Id rub it in if i was a coach to, the knicks suck and deserve whatever they get.

Its obvious Stern is doing Dolan a favour in all this

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

oh, and nearly every article 4gets to mention that THREE bench players were ready to check in at the scorers table

More media spin that wants to make more out of nothing

[JamStone]

oh, and nearly every article 4gets to mention that THREE bench players were ready to check in at the scorers table

More media spin that wants to make more out of nothing


What was wrong with the 2 minute mark? The 1:30 mark? Why not stop play? Commit a foul to get the subs in? Why does JR Smith get two fast break, cherry pick dunks? Just dribble the ball up and slow down the clock. That's all they had to do, even if they had the starters in. It's not about putting a show for the fans. It wasn't in Denver. It was at MSG. How is that not rubbing it in?

Isiah is a jerk. George Karl is just as much of a jerk, in my opinion.

[Bob Lanier]

What was wrong with the 2 minute mark? The 1:30 mark? Why not stop play? Commit a foul to get the subs in?
Ask Flip Saunders.

[ponky]

Same lineup my ass... Look at the play-by-play. Curry and Crawford were removed mid-way through the fourth. Marbury was removed at the 2 minutes mark.

A quick look at the lineups playing, point differential and time remaining says that Thomas had conceded defeat and that Karl was ignoring this and chose to run the score up.

Knicks players on the floor from 2 minutes onward...
Nate Robinson (bench player)
Mardy Collins (bench player)
Jared Jefferies (spot starter)
Channing Frye (spot starter)
David Lee (bench player)

Nuggets players on the floor at same point in time...
Andre Miller (starter)
J.R. Smith (starter)
Carmelo Anthony (NBA's leading scorer)
Eduardo Najera (spot starter)
Marcus Camby (starter)

You tell me that Thomas hadn't conceded now...
You tell me that Karl wasn't running the score up, regardless of him playing his starters fully in prior games now...

I don't give two shakes about the Karl/Brown angle. That's ambiguous. No real truth could ever be known about it. But, what is known is Thomas removed his scorers and put a lineup consisting of mainly role players on the floor, thus conceding defeat while Karl ignored such and allowed his starters to continue playing the same, dunking, fast-breaking, etc...

If Karl does this routinely, then even more shame on him, but Karl is FLAT OUT lying about the lineups and Thomas never conceding.

Karl had the timeout at the two minute mark to remove some of his starters, and didn't. He had the Camby foul at the 1:30 mark to remove some of his starters, and didn't. He could have done so with a 17-point lead and a 19-point lead respectively.

No team with a lineup of bench players is coming back from 19 points in 90 seconds. Not gonna happen, so Karl can just shut the hell up about a comeback.

By the way, the Nuggets entered the fourth quarter with a 10 point lead, promtly built it to 14, before the Knicks cut it back to 10. That's the only "comeback" that was made by the Knicks in that period. After that, the deficit fluxuated from 14-to-20 and largely hovered around 16-to-20 from the 8 minute mark onward.

That game was over. Thomas new it. His players knew it. Worse off, Karl knew it and his players knew it and yet they kept pounding home just how much better they were than the Knicks... LOOK AT THE PLAY-BY-PLAY!!!

Karl is lying out his ass. Don't be so stupid as to believe one word he says.

That's cute...now go look at the play-by-play of the last couple of games the Nuggets have played on the road. Hint: You're looking for starters in the last couple of minutes of the game. Also, I like how you conveniently said "that period" in referring to the fourth but failed to include the 25 point lead the Nuggets had in the closing minutes of the third...and the last two minutes of the third quarter where you'll see that the reason the Nuggets had a 10 point lead is because the Knicks cut the lead from 25 to 10 in about two minutes. Thanks for playing, try again.

[BeerIsGood!]

I can't agree with anyone saying that Karl is at fault for having his starters in the game late. This is the NBA, not some high school or college game. There isn't the huge difference in talent and opportunity that there are with high school and college ball between big and small schools. If an NBA team doesn't want to get embarrased then they should play hard and not quit. If a team is going to quit with 2 minutes left they deserve to get run up on. If you get your ass whipped, take it like a man. Don't bitch and make vail threats to the other team's players. Keep your mouth shut and use it as a motivational tool to coach your team. Do you see the Spurs, Mavs, Suns, or even Lakers quit when they are down big? Hell no. Thomas was a great talent as a player, but he is a complete no talent hack as anything else. He sucks at business and coaching. He is nothing more than an aging thug kid who throws tantrums and fits.

[jacobdrj]

Ask Flip Saunders.
Tell me about it...

[JMarkJohns]

That's cute...now go look at the play-by-play of the last couple of games the Nuggets have played on the road. Hint: You're looking for starters in the last couple of minutes of the game. Also, I like how you conveniently said "that period" in referring to the fourth but failed to include the 25 point lead the Nuggets had in the closing minutes of the third...and the last two minutes of the third quarter where you'll see that the reason the Nuggets had a 10 point lead is because the Knicks cut the lead from 25 to 10 in about two minutes. Thanks for playing, try again.

Double talk... the lineup that was puttin' it to the Nuggets in the third was Marbury, Nate, Lee, Frye and Curry. Like I said earlier, Marbury and Curry had been removed.

Also, it took the Knicks over seven minutes to cut the lead from 26 to to 10. SEVEN MINUTES... I know basketball time to real time is scewed, but seven minutes is not two minutes, let alone 90 seconds.

Again, Karl is exaggerating when he said "it was the same lineup"... it wasn't. He is exaggerating when he said "cut a 25-point lead to 10 in 2 minutes"... it didn't happen that way.

So, regardless of whatever period this "comeback" happened in, it still doesn't excuse Karl leaving in EVERY starter with a 17-to-19 point lead with two minutes or less to play.

Once Curry was replaced with a bench player and Marbury was replaced with a scrub, Karl should have followed suit and then not allowed his team to show up the opponant by dunking on them every chance they got.