Why is it that?

[Fillmoe]

In basketball when fights breakout the players are called "thugs" but in almost every other sport when a fight breaks out its just part of the game..... look at hockey.... fights break out and these dudes get 5 minute timeouts..... baseball the benches clear all the time and no one gives a shit about it 2 days later.... but in basketball a fight breaks out and all of the sudden the NBA's image is being tarnished by these "thugs".... the media is fucking shit up!

[AZLouis]

I always thought it was because there is an underlying racist theme.

Blacks represent the majority of the league's players and many are into the hip hop scene (ie baggy clothes, jewelry)

[ALVAREZ6]

Stupid media.

Athletes have been getting into fights for decades in every single major sport. It happens naturally. Even in soccer.

[nkdlunch]

yup only racist mofos only single out the NBA as thugs.

remember that fool drug addict birdman who got banned??

did anybody call him a thug, or something like that?

nope, but had he been black, all kinds of shit would have been said about him

[KB24]

NBA full o' NIGA w0rd!

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

it IS a race issue.

It's a double standard: hockey, soccer, all of those sports have worse incidents that no one blinks twice to, but this one a cheap swipe at a player? and a little shoving? It's really nothing, it just sounds bad by ESPN's unnecessary 24 Hour Coverage. The whole idea that the league has to pin extra conduct on the NBA which is predominately black, is a testament of that the marginal market in this country are Prejudiced...

I'm only confused by the 80's the ballers used to be a lot rougher, and no one noticed too much and that was a time when the NBA was more popular and attracted the marginals, because Magic and Bird were the faces of the league.

It's a touchy issue because where do you draw the line of responsibility, from those ignorantly assuming all NBA players are "thugs", or when players like Carmelo get involved in that Snitch video, or make news because they got caught with a gun on a plane. Fact is, some players are young, stupid, and careless.

[Solid D]

Was it a race issue when Larry Bird told his Celtics teammates (caught on tape) in their Lakers' series "no more layups" and then Larry and the Celts proceeded to take people out whenever the Lakers drove to the hoop?

[Solid D]

Was it a race issue when Bill Laimbeer turned into a major fight instigator during the playoffs against the Bulls?

[JamStone]

You can't compare fights in hocket to fights in basketball. Fighting in hockey is part of its culture and history. With the way the game is, big hits along the boards or slashing hockey sticks at another player will lead to ill feelings that will eventually result in bad blood and fighting. It's part of the sport. Fighting in basketball is not nearly as much part of the history and culture of basketball as it is in hockey.

As for baseball, fights are generally part of having being hit by a pitch. Getting hit by a 95 mph fast ball that could maim you or do worse is something you can understand fighting over. Getting fouled hard in basketball is not at the same level as getting darted in with a baseball.

And, then you look at each respective sport. Basketball has approximately 400 players in the NBA. In football it's over 1500 players in the NFL. In baseball, it's over 750 players. In hockey, it's over 600. Basketball has the fewest players. And, unlike the other three major sports, they don't wear hats, masks, or helmets. NBA players are more recognizable. You know what tattooes they have. You know their hairstyle. The media can follow their personal lives more closely because their faces are generally more recognizable. Not so in football or hockey. And, baseball, you have to be Derek Jeter or Barry Bonds for most people to know who you are.

The NBA and its players are more recognizable. And, in today's MTV/hip hop generation, people are interested in Carmelo's relationship with Lala and Kobe Bryant's rape case and Shaq's beef with Kobe and Ron Artest's album release.

The biggest stars in the other sports don't come close to the NBA's biggest star in LeBron James. How many people can identify LeBron James? And, how many people could identify Derek Jeter? And, how many people can identify Peyton Manning? And, how many people can identify Sidney Crosby?

Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning get a lot of pub. But, after those two, who in their respective sports could people know on looks alone in the NFL and MLB. There would be plenty of people who don't even know what LaDanian Tomlinson and Johan Santana look like. And, hockey. Well, come on. Could you tell me what Rick Nash looks like? Could you point out Martin Brodeur out in a crowd?

It's about recognizability and familiarity. While the NFL is still king, all of those guys wear helmets.

People know who LeBron is, who Carmelo and Dwyane Wade are, who Kobe is, Iverson, Shaq, KG, Tim Duncan. They are easily recognizable. The media knows that. They know people identify them and identify with them.

Is there some level of racism? Maybe. I can see some. But, it's also the nature of sports media. Michael Jordan changed the culture of sports advertising. Kobe was on his way to carrying that torch until his feud with Shaq and the sexual assault case. But, look at LeBron now. 75% of the world, nevermind America, knows who LeBron is. You can't say that about other athletes in other sports, not even Peyton Manning.


There are plenty of reasons why basketball players are labelled "thugs" when they cause trouble or get into fights. Racial issues may play a factor, but they're not the only reason.

[JamStone]

Miami Heat's Jason Williams was considered a "thug" especially when he attacked that reporter in Memphis, "homeboy."

Andres Nocioni is considered a "dirty" player.

[Fillmoe]

As for baseball, fights are generally part of having being hit by a pitch. Getting hit by a 95 mph fast ball that could maim you or do worse is something you can understand fighting over. Getting fouled hard in basketball is not at the same level as getting darted in with a baseball.



stupidest shit ive heard of in my life

[Spurminator]

Was it a race issue when Larry Bird told his Celtics teammates (caught on tape) in their Lakers' series "no more layups" and then Larry and the Celts proceeded to take people out whenever the Lakers drove to the hoop?

Apparently not, because it wasn't covered for weeks and Bird wasn't suspended for 15 games.

[resistanze]

stupidest shit ive heard of in my life
I have to agree, that's some weak justification.

Hockey you can probably get away with reasoning , although I question why doesn't anyone doesn't call hockey a "thug" culture, in that case. I hardly heard anyone call Tie Domi a thug when he squirted a fan with water and fought with him, and I heard people say Bertuzzi just made an honest mistake when is BROKE Moore's neck. But people are hit all the time with baseballs, even unintentionally; the risk is about the same to a pitcher that purposely hits someone in the back.

People don't fight in baseball because getting hit with a baseball is more dangerous, its the intention to hurt and disrespect that sets people off. Same goes for basketball, and you CAN injure a person going for a layup badly, intentionally or unintentionally. The fight broke out because Collins intentionally tried to foul Smith as hard as possible, as well as the risk of doing so.

[JamStone]

I'm pretty sure Ti Domi is called a thug by people. And, Todd Bertuzzi was vilified and blasted by the sports media for his actions against Scott Moore.

As for the baseball comment, I did mean when pitchers intentionally hit batters, not just hitting a batter by accident.

I'm not saying you can't hurt someone fouling them on a fastbreak, because of course you can. I just think there's a feeling that the danger is greater with a baseball than with a hard foul in basketball. Maybe the sentiment shouldn't be that way, but I think it is. And, I don't think it really has to do with race.

As for it being a weak argument or the stupidest shit ever ... if that's your opinion, that's fine. I just don't think it's completely a racially instituted issue with the NBA. It could play a part. But, I don't believe it's mostly because of it.

[dg7md]

Hockey allows fights, restricted ones, but they are allowed generally. The NBA doesn't allow it.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

I'm pretty sure Ti Domi is called a thug by people. And, Todd Bertuzzi was vilified and blasted by the sports media for his actions against Scott Moore.

tie domi is one of the original tough guys and he didn't just fight, in hockey fights not only show who the better fighter is but they are used to boost morale ..and i think his name was steve moore

[whottt]

Thug is usually used to label some guy that seems to get into a lot of fights or heated altercations either on the court or off the court...Most of the time the guy doesn't have much talent.

Reason you don't see it applied to many white guys in basketball is that there aren't many white guys that do that in the NBA at this time. Believe me...if you'd been around when Lambeir played you would have heard the term applied to him more than any guy in NBA history.

Having a few thugs in hockey is almost a requirment in fielding a team...I think hockey has the most on court thugs and you see the term applied to the right guys most of the time.

Baseball you usually won't hear the term applied to anyone other than a headhunting pitcher. Other than Albert Belle ;), who was pretty much the embodiment of the term thug...in any era.

Football the term is usually reserved for guys that take a lot of cheapshots intended to hurt players or who get involved in a lot of off the court fights.

Sometimes if just one guy on the team is the thug and he just so happens to be the star of that team, the term can be apllied to the entire team.


Chris Andersen wasn't labeled a thug because he really never got into any fights on or off the court...I have heard him labeled an idiot many times...and rightly so.

I think you are right to an extent...if the guy is young, black and sporting some cornrows and tats he probably will get the label quicker than most...then again, that's usually the public image the guy is looking to portray...gangstas and all that.

In terms of team...I think the term does apply to Isiah's Knicks this season since Isiah has been at the heart of a lot confrontations...

The Knicks had that label when Riley coached them too...in fact they even said the Knicks played thugball.

[v2freak]

Maybe another reason you have people labeling the NBA as thug-ridden is because, quite simply, you have a lot of bullshit going on. Players firing guns off in the streets during the off season, players showing up in bootleg videos, and players listening to musicians whose lives revolve around "getting rich or dying trying".

You don't have the effect without the cause.

[LB7]

And that only happens in the NBA? Uhh hmm...right off the top of my head, the Bengals come to mind of the NFL. And the type of music they listen to?? How is that specific to the NBA? None of what you said answers the question as to why the NBA is judged differently than other leagues. Everything you said happens in every sport. Pretty sure many football, basketball, and baseball players listen to 50 cent...whatever your point was with that.

[v2freak]

Everyone is making generalizations. Statistically, yes - there is a way to prove that the majority of the NBA is comprised of black athletes. But then a lot of people have already made the association between black people and ghetto people. And statistically, you will find fewer white ghetto people than black people. So when you discuss other leagues, and you make a note that most of those leagues are not predominantly black like the NBA, then you need to consider this as well. Does this have to do with race? Somewhat, but what it comes down to is discrimination against the less well off (euphemism for ghetto), not black people.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the media will stop portraying the NBA as ghetto once the players stop trying to glorify 'the hood' ? Since when does blocking the shot of a player merit standing over him and gloating? Too many players are obsessed with appearing 'hard'.

On a side, but related note, I'd recommend Coach Carter to anyone

If you don't understand what I'm saying, then there's nothing else I can do for you. I'm willing to bet I've already offended quite a few people and to those people, I apologize. But I'm glad that this topic is being addressed

The day we see the media call DRob a thug, based solely on his skin color, is the day in which this topic will truly be a case of racism.


In basketball when fights breakout the players are called "thugs" but in almost every other sport when a fight breaks out its just part of the game..... look at hockey.... fights break out and these dudes get 5 minute timeouts..... baseball the benches clear all the time and no one gives a shit about it 2 days later.... but in basketball a fight breaks out and all of the sudden the NBA's image is being tarnished by these "thugs".... the media is fucking shit up!

lol

[RonMexico]

Stop playing the race card, please! People do care when Pedro Martinez throws down Don Zimmer, Karim Garcia gets in a fight with a Red Sox bullpen employee, Kenny Rogers assaults a cameraman, and a Dodgers guy throws a chair into the stands and breaks a woman's nose.

The classy NBA players (of all colors) get treated with the respect they deserve. Stern is trying to clean up the rest of the league's image, probably to the delight of the African-American elite who would love to see their own children emulate the responsible NBA players (like Gilbert Arenas or Dwayne Wade). These players are treated with the same respect they give the league, and if they don't like, well they can take their lack of college degrees and try to find a job somewhere else that pays them just as well. When Chris Andersen got thrown out of the league last year for violating the drug policy, no one pulled out the race card (I guess that's because he is white). He's still a very bad seed in the league and he got a year's suspension.

You're just buying into the media's spin that this is racially charged. Hockey usually doesn't care about fighting because they want anyone to come and see them play at this point in time b/c the league's popularity is at an all time low (i.e. the fans are treating their greedy asses with the same respect they gave the fans last year by locking out). But when Marty McSorley of St. Louis clocked Donald Brashear (who is black) over the head with his stick, the media played the race card in hockey back then. I'm sure the league would suspend their players a long time if they somehow got into the stands and attacked the crowd. Just like baseball cracks down on players that intentionally fight/injure fans.

Football is somewhat of a different story because anybody seems to look the other way as long as that team is winning. You think the Arizona Cardinals would escape wrath from fans, media, and the league if they had racked up 8 arrests in the past year?

[Bob Lanier]

Since when does blocking the shot of a player merit standing over him and gloating? Too many players are obsessed with appearing 'hard'.
Yeah, Dikembe Mutombo, a real hood rat that one.

[Chris Andersen]'s still a very bad seed in the league
You're serious?

Stop playing the race card, please! People do care when Pedro Martinez throws down Don Zimmer, Karim Garcia gets in a fight with a Red Sox bullpen employee, Kenny Rogers assaults a cameraman, and a Dodgers guy throws a chair into the stands and breaks a woman's nose.
Who? Besides short, fat, white men in sportscasters' booths who are paid to pontificate on how minor tussles which - so far as I can tell - have never given lasting injuries to anyone are causing the downfall of civilisation?

responsible NBA players (like Gilbert Arenas or Dwayne Wade).
Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade are two of the most egotistical asses in the NBA. Parents really want their children to emulate sniveling, bitching whiners like the two of them?

[RonMexico]

Yeah, Dikembe Mutombo, a real hood rat that one.

You're serious?

Who? Besides short, fat, white men in sportscasters' booths who are paid to pontificate on how minor tussles which - so far as I can tell - have never given lasting injuries to anyone are causing the downfall of civilisation?

Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade are two of the most egotistical asses in the NBA. Parents really want their children to emulate sniveling, bitching whiners like the two of them?

No, they should probably emulate Ben Wallace and instigate a brawl in Detroit. Or perhaps they could emulate Rasheed, who isn't egotistical, brash, whiny at all. You're trying to say Jordan didn't have an ego? That ego is what made him so good. I'm tired of talking to you because you're still sore about D-Wade's performance last year, and won't take the advice of the guy who works for the Rockets and sees them each once a year and knows how they carry themselves. You're sitting on your fat-ass at home bitching because Baby Chauncey got a foul called on him. Dwayne Wade is a very clean-cut individual and isn't any more whiney than Avery Johnson, for example... or Dirk. Secondly, Gilbert Arenas gives back a lot to his community and gives the most time of any All-Star I've ever seen to signing autographs and taking pictures with fans. That's what the league wants to see - not Ben Wallace complaining about wearing a fucking headband like a gigantic, overpaid, can't shoot, egotistical pussy.

You obviously didn't read all the posts on here that were playing the race card, so I'll give you a chance to read that. Secondly, I know Chris Andersen and have been to his home-town of Iola, TX - where I've spoken with his high school coach who says that he really wishes Chris would get his head on straight because he could do so well in the league. I was a big CA fan when he came out because I liked his playing style. But his legargy, laziness, inability to follow rules (like league drug rules) make him a "bad seed" and that's kind of what he's out of the league. When energy guys like that are playing just a few minutes a game, their actions off-the-court play a very large role in their tenure in the league. He's eligible to be picked up right now, but I guarantee you that no coach or GM wants to make that signing because they're not sure if he's cleaned up his act.

[dimsah]

I don't think the NBA has to justify a fucking thing in this case.
They don't want fighting so if you fuck up then you're going to get punished.
End of story.

And why is anyone comparing other pro sports to the NBA. The only thing they have in common is that they're professional sports. That doesn't mean they should all use the same rules.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Now I'm not a fan of the race card! I don't even care for race or give it much emphasis personally, but in terms of Stern's market, there still are undertones projected by both the media perceptions and those sordid tidbits about young players who happened to be black, and because the NBA has been established as a "black man's" league for some time now( as opposed to the other two big American sports.), Larry Bird acknowledged it though it may not be P.C. The white players are the minority in the league so there's less instance of hearing about the seedy characters in there.

Saying that there has to be Blatant racism in order for it to not be a race issue or to assume that most folk besides the media ALREADY uphold a colorblind standard to these guys is denying the reality of it.
I don't think it's a blatant case of an issue of race--and it's probably EVEN exaggerated. But the real issue is Stern's actions ARE reflective of IMAGE and his concerns (with dress codes, stricter conduct codes, the NBA Cares publicity, etc.) is the league's response to that increase of primadonnas and irrational-headcases in the last five years--who prioritized "glamour" and "cred" and somewhat succeeded in associating it with the league. It's only been in the last 8 years after Michael Jordan era ended that the league started getting a "bad rap" to the outerfringe fans who stopped watching after Jordan left. Couple that with the years of tidbits of A.I.'s behavior and then Kobe (who WAS a posterchild and had a pretty squeaky clean image) had to go and rape someone, then compound that with the Malice in the Palace, and you'll see that the league has been overtly doing damage control for the past few years! Why do you think we get those damn commercials about TEAMwork while Lebron and Wade, are being propped up, attributed with the words, "Team-Player" and "humble" constantly trumpeted. It's a backlash!
And you can't deny that among the more "Positive Image", Stern is trying to revamp and sell (to get back the marginal American fans), there ARE race connotations tied into it (Perceived Hip-Hop Culture, hence that Dress Code), because the league is smaller than other sports as one poster mentioned, they're under the microscope a little more, whereas other sports are a little more heterogenous.

The NBA has gotten more diverse over the years, but the league still gets stigmatized by a few bad apples, and because this is America, stupid things like prejudice and stereotypes still have to be accounted for in this particular business.

[stretch]

I always thought it was because there is an underlying racist theme.

Blacks represent the majority of the league's players and many are into the hip hop scene (ie baggy clothes, jewelry)
Steve Francis said that the other day. I have to agree too. Race is an issue in the NBA. we see people in baseball who throw chairs at people for no reason at all, and its only an issue for a couple days, then everyone forgets about it. but when you see a scuffle in the NBA, suddenly everyone labels all those players as thugs and shit like that. people have really lost the meaning of the term "thug", and use it way too much for people that dont deserve such a title.

[Bob Lanier]

No, they should probably emulate Ben Wallace and instigate a brawl in Detroit. Or perhaps they could emulate Rasheed, who isn't egotistical, brash, whiny at all.
They shouldn't "emulate" any of these people. It is not the job of a professional athlete to be an etiquette tutor to children.

You're trying to say Jordan didn't have an ego?
Why would you possibly think I was "trying to say" that? Of course he had an ego. He had an enormous one. He was a megalomaniacal asshole in just about every respect who had his flaws airbrushed by a fawning media, to an even greater extent than Wade has.

I'm tired of talking to you because you're still sore about D-Wade's performance last year
Believe it or not, I'm not "sore" about anything. It was the last straw, but not particularly worse than any of the others. I don't hold a grudge against David Stern for the way he runs his league, and I certainly don't hold one against Dwyane Wade for benefiting from it. I simply don't watch.
You're sitting on your fat-assMy ass is hardly fat. You see, the difference is that we know that sportscasters and sportswriters are very frequently overweight to morbidly obese. You're only making assumptions about me.

Dwayne Wade is a very clean-cut individual
How he conducts himself off the court is no-one's business but his own. How he or Arenas relates to "his community" has and should have no bearing on how I view him as a professional athlete.

and isn't any more whiney than Avery Johnson, for example... or Dirk.
Possibly not.

That's what the league wants to see - not Ben Wallace complaining
No doubt they want to see that! They believe that they can make more money by forcing athletes to live in a fishbowl, 24-hour-a-day PR spokesmen for their teams and their league. That may be true, but it is unfortunate. I want to see less of this saccharine bullshit, fewer cameras, fewer interviews, fewer sports media. Wade could be an amateur doctor to the poor and humanitarian diplomat and, so long as his extracurricular activities didn't effect his performance as a basketball player, it is his private affair. Wallace's issues with Chicago management were an internal disciplinary matter and his complaints never should have been printed or aired. It may be in the league's financial interests to exploit an irresponsible, sensationalist media, but that doesn't make their actions any less irresponsible or sensationalist.

I can only imagine how the modern media would have treated Wilt Chamberlain's sex life - as puritanical as Americans are, I'm sure they would have had a field day - or Wes Unseld's "dirty" play.

You obviously didn't read all the posts on here that were playing the race card, so I'll give you a chance to read that.
Thanks!

I know Chris Andersen
That's nice.

his high school coach who says that he really wishes Chris would get his head on straight
Good for him.

his legargy, laziness, inability to follow rules (like league drug rules) make him a "bad seed"
Lots of lazy players in the NBA. His personal use of recreational drugs is none of the league's concern.

their actions off-the-court play a very large role in their tenure in the league.
You're right about that. There are aspects of that which are new and some which aren't so new, but in all aspects it's a foolish way to do business.

[Kori Ellis]

I said this in antoher thread in the Spurs forum the other day.

The NBA is 75-80% black. MLB is only 8-9% black.

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior. :rolleyes

I don't believe in calling much a "race issue", but this is one.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

There is a race issue in the NBA, the dress code underlined that pretty clearly. But I don't think anyone in this drama is being called a thug undeservedly. In the last few years who has been handed that title without earning it?

Artest had a rap sheet as long as his arm well before he went into the stands in Detroit. Most Spurs fans weren't too shocked when Jax followed him in there, and no one should have been surprised by the crap he pulled at the strip club this summer.

In this latest fiasco, no one is a choir boy.
Melo-cheap shot attempt at Manu, busted with weed last year, "Stop Snitching"
Isiah- leader of the Bad Boys, considered an asshole throughout the league, accused of ordering hits on players before this incident
Nate-showboat, hothead, known to be involved in a few locker room altercations
Collins- did the exact same thing in the previous game vs. Pacers and apparently recently said if given the chance he'd do it all over again.

The reason this has such legs to run is because practically none of the guys in are first time offenders. As for the ones that are, have there been any big media blitzes against JR Smith and Jared Jeffries? That's a serious question, BTW. I haven't exactly had my ear to the ground on this one. It's easy to paint the players as thugs when they are just that.

[v2freak]

The thing is, you could dissect this topic in any number of ways. Posters are discussing the social aspects, but no one has discussed the science or economics of this

[MosesGuthrie]

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior

Good point. I think there are some players in all sports that act thuggish and gangsta but its certainly not the majority. A lot of these "thugs" do great things in their communities and that usually gets ignored.

Personally I detest fighting in any sport and think that the penalties should be worse. Baseball is a joke. They talk about cleaning up their sport but guys in brawls usually get 5-7 game suspensions which almost always get reduced to 3 or 4.

[stretch]

I said this in antoher thread in the Spurs forum the other day.

The NBA is 75-80% black. MLB is only 8-9% black.

And unfortunately, many (white) people who watch sports or are corporate sponsors etc., view everything about young, urban black males as thuggish and gangsta. That's why when there's a baseball brawl of a bunch of white guys, no one cares and there's no 15 game suspensions. When there's a basketball brawl of a couple black players, then they "need" to give out huge penalties to stop this thuggish behavior. :rolleyes

I don't believe in calling much a "race issue", but this is one.
i agree 100% Kori. good post. im not 1 bit black, but its obvious that racism still exists to an extent these day.

[LakeShow]

You can't compare fights in hocket to fights in basketball. Fighting in hockey is part of its culture and history. With the way the game is, big hits along the boards or slashing hockey sticks at another player will lead to ill feelings that will eventually result in bad blood and fighting. It's part of the sport. Fighting in basketball is not nearly as much part of the history and culture of basketball as it is in hockey.

As for baseball, fights are generally part of having being hit by a pitch. Getting hit by a 95 mph fast ball that could maim you or do worse is something you can understand fighting over. Getting fouled hard in basketball is not at the same level as getting darted in with a baseball.

And, then you look at each respective sport. Basketball has approximately 400 players in the NBA. In football it's over 1500 players in the NFL. In baseball, it's over 750 players. In hockey, it's over 600. Basketball has the fewest players. And, unlike the other three major sports, they don't wear hats, masks, or helmets. NBA players are more recognizable. You know what tattooes they have. You know their hairstyle. The media can follow their personal lives more closely because their faces are generally more recognizable. Not so in football or hockey. And, baseball, you have to be Derek Jeter or Barry Bonds for most people to know who you are.

The NBA and its players are more recognizable. And, in today's MTV/hip hop generation, people are interested in Carmelo's relationship with Lala and Kobe Bryant's rape case and Shaq's beef with Kobe and Ron Artest's album release.

The biggest stars in the other sports don't come close to the NBA's biggest star in LeBron James. How many people can identify LeBron James? And, how many people could identify Derek Jeter? And, how many people can identify Peyton Manning? And, how many people can identify Sidney Crosby?

Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning get a lot of pub. But, after those two, who in their respective sports could people know on looks alone in the NFL and MLB. There would be plenty of people who don't even know what LaDanian Tomlinson and Johan Santana look like. And, hockey. Well, come on. Could you tell me what Rick Nash looks like? Could you point out Martin Brodeur out in a crowd?

It's about recognizability and familiarity. While the NFL is still king, all of those guys wear helmets.

People know who LeBron is, who Carmelo and Dwyane Wade are, who Kobe is, Iverson, Shaq, KG, Tim Duncan. They are easily recognizable. The media knows that. They know people identify them and identify with them.

Is there some level of racism? Maybe. I can see some. But, it's also the nature of sports media. Michael Jordan changed the culture of sports advertising. Kobe was on his way to carrying that torch until his feud with Shaq and the sexual assault case. But, look at LeBron now. 75% of the world, nevermind America, knows who LeBron is. You can't say that about other athletes in other sports, not even Peyton Manning.


There are plenty of reasons why basketball players are labelled "thugs" when they cause trouble or get into fights. Racial issues may play a factor, but they're not the only reason.

I think you make an excellent point in bold.

[LakeShow]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/061218

Just an ol' Jock fight
By Jemele Hill
Page 2


Don't blame The Game.

It ain't Master P's fault.

Throwbacks weren't the cause of this throw down.

Two things you could count on happening in the aftermath of the Knicks-Nuggets fight: (1) Overusage of the word "thug," which belongs right next to "race card" in the Phrases That Should Be Eliminated Hall of Fame; (2) Somehow this will all be blamed on hip-hop culture -- the convenient scapegoat for everything wrong with the NBA. Forget blaming this on a petty feud between George Karl and Isiah Thomas. Let's just point the finger at Ludacris.

Seriously folks, can we not make the same mistake with "Melee at Madison Square" that we did after the "Malice at the Palace"? Can we not smash the overreact button and realize Saturday's multiplayer brawl was just a regular ol' jock fight?




Kurt Snibbe
The punishments given by NBA commissioner David Stern on Monday were frighteningly predictable. To be fair, Stern was in a tough spot. Were it not for the Palace fiasco, this latest ordeal would merely have been a rehash of previous NBA feuds that, quite honestly, helped make the 1980s a fantastic NBA era to watch.

Newsflash: competitive athletes fight sometimes. They also are egomaniacs. And they get especially pissed when they feel their opponent is running up the score. But hey, if you belonged to an organization that is as mismanaged and woeful as the Knicks, fighting in an otherwise meaningless NBA game would be a worthwhile sacrifice if it meant shortening the number of times you had to wear that uniform.

Let's be smart. Let's blame this one on false bravado, machismo and stupidity. Let's not turn this into some tired diatribe on how the NBA was destined for doom the minute Allen Iverson grew cornrows. Let's not have pointless discussions about how today's young athletes are wannabe gangsters. Asked by Salt Lake Tribune columnist Gordon Monson last week if any of his players ever got in his face, Utah coach Jerry Sloan said, "No, not up in my face. If they did, somebody would be going south. I've got too much craziness in me." And to my knowledge, no one ever has called Sloan the dreaded t-word (thug).

It is what it is. A NASCAR guy can drop-kick another driver through his car window and it is just considered part of the sport. Hockey players drop their sticks and pound on one another on a regular basis and no one dares blame it on anything other than just a boiling, competitive spirit. When NASCAR drivers blast one another with their cars out of anger it isn't symptomatic of what's wrong with white people. So please don't turn a silly NBA fight into a town hall meeting about what's wrong with African Americans -- even though, unfortunately, something like this somehow winds up reflecting poorly on the entire black community.

Of course, the fight was wrong. No one is denying that. It should never have gone as far as it did. Clearly, Carmelo Anthony must never have heard of Kermit Washington, whose life was irrevocably altered because he sucker-punched Rudy Tomjanovich. Melo could have seriously injured Mardy Collins. At worst, criminal charges should be strongly considered, and at best, Melo should be sentenced to a lifetime of snickers because Mr. Don't Snitch ran during the fight from Nate Robinson, who is a mighty 5-foot-7. Melo is now the recipient of the Disgraceful Fighting Award, an honor that in years past has belonged to Doug Christie (your wife cannot throw a meaner punch than you do), Kobe Bryant (Chris Childs gave Kobe a combination that would make Lennox Lewis jealous) and Shaq (how is a 7-footer going to allow himself to get dropped by Charles Barkley, who is 6-foot-5 on a good day?).

And by the way, a memo to pundits, experts and columnists: What happened at Madison Square Garden was a fight. Now that incident that occurred at a basketball game in Serbia a couple of weeks ago -- that was a riot.

Anyway, Stern's tactics suggests he fashions himself as Michael Corleone, but a dress code can't prevent a 10-player brawl any more than a birthing video can stop teenage sex.

Stern has gone out of his way to try to sever the league's connection to hip-hop -- except, of course, when it comes to peddling NBA apparel that costs as much as a car payment -- but trying to use this fight as an example of widespread, unchecked "thuggery" is ridiculous and irresponsible. To borrow a quote from "The Wire"'s Omar, sometimes, it's all in the game.

Jemele Hill, a Page 2 columnist and writer for ESPN the Magazine, can be reached at [email protected].