Suns

[spursreport]

The Suns have now won 15 in a row! The west is not about 2 teams this year (Spurs/Mavs) and I wish people would stop saying that. The Suns are for real and people need to fucking realize this. This is not a 5 game series type of team anymore and they will be a very tough to beat in a series. The west is so fucking loaded that 3-5 teams actually have a realistic chance of winning it all.

[stretch]

fuck that. the Nets won like 13 or something in a row a few years ago. does that mean they were true title contenders? the Suns are a good team, but they still play NO defense, and cant rebound worth a shit. to win in the playoffs, the two most important things are to be able to play defense, and rebound the basketball. they dont do either. the suns are a nice team, but wont win jack shit. either the Spurs or the Mavericks WILL win the title this year.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

the suns will get 16 straight tomorrow night. I doubt AI plays and even if he does its not like the team will gel from the get go.

[spursreport]

fuck that. the Nets won like 13 or something in a row a few years ago. does that mean they were true title contenders? the Suns are a good team, but they still play NO defense, and cant rebound worth a shit. to win in the playoffs, the two most important things are to be able to play defense, and rebound the basketball. they dont do either. the suns are a nice team, but wont win jack shit. either the Spurs or the Mavericks WILL win the title this year.

The Suns manage to nearly push you guys 7 games last year with no amare,kurt thomas, and Raja Bell playing on 1 fucking leg and they eliminated you 2 years ago. They are going to be fucking tough in a series and it is retarded to deny that.

[dirk4mvp]

The west is loaded.

[spursreport]

The west is loaded.

Thank you. At least you know more then 2 teams are very capable of winning it all.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

AI isnt playing tomorrow. His 1st game will be Saturday vs the Kings

[spursreport]

BTW the Heat werent exactly an amazing defensive club either yet they managed to win the title. Go figure :lol

[dirk4mvp]

Thank you. At least you know more then 2 teams are very capable of winning it all.


The west is loaded, but only 3 teams have a chance of winning it.......

[spursreport]

The west is loaded, but only 3 teams have a chance of winning it.......

I think a healthy Lakers team would give fucking fits to anyone in a series. They are so deep,versatile,athletic and have big fowards who can give teams serious headaches and matchup issues. IF Houston is healthy they would give serious fits as well. The Mavs/Spurs/Suns is the true top 3 in the west.

[Leetonidas]

Eh, I still don't see them as a powerhouse come playoff time. Remember, in 2003, the Mavs started out 14-0 and everyone jumped on their sack. Fact of the matter is, the Suns are just the like the Mavs and Kings from 3-4 years ago. All scoring, no defense. Unless the Suns add some rebounders (besides Marion) and start playing defense, they're not going anywhere.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Suns are a nice little team! While I do agree the west is this loaded, it comes down to the Mavs first then everybody else comes in after them. Spurs are probably 2nd but lots of teams can challenge them for that spot. Suns MIGHT take that spot away from them but we shall see.

[Leetonidas]

Suns are a nice little team! While I do agree the west is this loaded, it comes down to the Mavs first then everybody else comes in after them. Spurs are probably 2nd but lots of teams can challenge them for that spot. Suns MIGHT take that spot away from them but we shall see.
Wrong. Spurs > Suns > Mavs :smokin

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Wrong. Spurs > Suns > Mavs :smokin



:p: :downspin:

[RonMexico]

Eh, I still don't see them as a powerhouse come playoff time. Remember, in 2003, the Mavs started out 14-0 and everyone jumped on their sack. Fact of the matter is, the Suns are just the like the Mavs and Kings from 3-4 years ago. All scoring, no defense. Unless the Suns add some rebounders (besides Marion) and start playing defense, they're not going anywhere.

I just chuckle reading all these things - a Mavs fan talking about defense... Then this guy saying the Suns don't "have rebounders." FYI, they have more than just Marion out there in terms of guys who can rebound. Rebounding is more about getting good position and imposing your will. The Suns have the athletes capable of doing this, so they don't need to "go get another one." Question is - will these players such as Amare, Boris Diaw, and Kurt Thomas step up and make a concerted effort to start rebounding? That is left to be seen.

I don't think a team that is holding opponents to 41% shooting over this winning streak, is now second in the league in point-differential, and is not giving up the most PPG in the league must play some kind of defense out there. Whether they can sustain this effort for a playoff series remains to be seen. You obviously haven't watched many Suns games this year and you are basing your arguments off whatever Charles Barkely or some dumbass on ESPN says. (Barkley, btw, didn't play that much defense, but he sure could rebound.)

I'm tired of this constant Spurs and Mavs bias that the Suns never play defense - they are genuinely putting forth the effort to clamp down on the defensive end this year, and while they still have lapses, it is a start. I mean, they didn't have to hire Avery Johnson and then "suddenly" become a defensive team, while then bitching that every other team plays "bear-hug" defense.

To retort your comment about the 2003 Mavs... that team seems a lot like the 2004-05 Suns who jumped out to a 30-4 record and everyone starting proclaiming a 70-win season. That team has changed dramatically in 2 years and realized over the past 2 seasons that perhaps a little defensive effort is necessary to win in the playoffs despite 2 deep WCF runs (can't say the Spurs or Mavs got to the last two WCFs can we?).

Also, you fail to realize that they lost their two main "enforcers" and "rebounders" in Kurt Thomas and Amare Stoudemire, but both of those guys are healthy and getting back in shape this year. I guess Amare doesn't "rebound" when he gets 7-straight double-doubles for the first time in his career. Start watching a game or two (since I'm sure you just look at the boxscore or your 2005 Spurs Championship DVD to form your opinions). Look past the PPG and maybe look at blocked shots/steals which are both steadily increasing for this years' Suns. Just come to me with something different than what every dumbass on this message board says.

[RonMexico]

fuck that. the Nets won like 13 or something in a row a few years ago. does that mean they were true title contenders? the Suns are a good team, but they still play NO defense, and cant rebound worth a shit. to win in the playoffs, the two most important things are to be able to play defense, and rebound the basketball. they dont do either. the suns are a nice team, but wont win jack shit. either the Spurs or the Mavericks WILL win the title this year.

Dirk still plays NO defense and has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry still plays NO defense and is equally shitty when the game is on the line. The Mavs have NO offensive options besides running the ball through Dirk. Josh Howard still has NO discipline and is an immature punk who gets frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the first game of the year and has to throw an elbow.

[mavsfan1000]

This is the right order here. Mavs>Spurs>Suns

[phyzik]

This is the right order here. Mavs>Spurs>Suns

This season, yes...

ONLY because Dallas took out Spurs in the WCF.... they are not the better team however... 14>>>>>1 in playoff series as far as Im concerned.

Dallas Ponnies still have ALOT to prove... can they do it again??? possibly.... but only time will tell. THIS is the key for Mavs fans to get respect around here and you need to keep that in mind. One series aint shit.

Youv'e won one series against the MANY times you've played the Spurs in the playoffs... granted the team looks better than ever.... but prove it.

[Nashfan]

You beat me to it RonMexico! :lol I too get tired of these Spurs and Mav fans saying things like this about the Suns. :rolleyes The Suns are improving in rebounding and defense now that Kurt Thomas is back and Amare is playing so well. Cannot wait until we play the Mavs in December. :ihit They are too much a one on one team and we play as a team.

[phyzik]

You beat me to it RonMexico! :lol I too get tired of these Spurs and Mav fans saying things like this about the Suns. :rolleyes The Suns are improving in rebounding and defense now that Kurt Thomas is back and Amare is playing so well. Cannot wait until we play the Mavs in December. :ihit They are too much a one on one team and we play as a team.


2005 playoffs.... wasnt Amare Healthy then?? :rolleyes




4-1..... WHOOPS!!! :drunk

Suns are improving in defense.... maybe a fraction.... but they are still a run-and-gun, die-by-the-3-pointer team even WITH Amare.

[mavsfan1000]

You beat me to it RonMexico! :lol I too get tired of these Spurs and Mav fans saying things like this about the Suns. :rolleyes The Suns are improving in rebounding and defense now that Kurt Thomas is back and Amare is playing so well. Cannot wait until we play the Mavs in December. :ihit They are too much a one on one team and we play as a team.
Devin Harris is distributing pretty well. Dallas passes more than you think. Anyways the mavs are one of the few teams that can matchup with Phoenix's athleticism. Phoenix can have a 20 game win streak but until they beat Dallas and San Antonio than they are still 3rd in the west.

[Nashfan]

2005 team is not the same team as this years team you idiot. We have completely different players around Amare now. More skilled in a lot of areas of the game than before. So, using the 2005 team as a comparison won't work now.

[Nashfan]

Actually, I believe we are second in the West right now! :lol

[Bob Lanier]

Dirk [...] has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry [...] is equally shitty when the game is on the line.
:drunk :drunk :drunk :drunk :drunk

And as far as I can see, you're making arguments about the potential of certain players to be effective rebounders, and while that's all well and good, it's not in any way indicative of how they'll actually perform. Rebounding is generally a skill that one has or one doesn't, and it doesn't take long to tell if someone doesn't.

[mavsfan1000]

2005 team is not the same team as this years team you idiot. We have completely different players around Amare now. More skilled in a lot of areas of the game than before. So, using the 2005 team as a comparison won't work now.
Same thing goes for the mavs. You can't compare them to 2004. This team is getting better every year to this point. Harris and Howard have really developed and Diop was a nice addition.

[Xylus]

2005 playoffs.... wasnt Amare Healthy then?? :rolleyes




4-1..... WHOOPS!!! :drunk

Suns are improving in defense.... maybe a fraction.... but they are still a run-and-gun, die-by-the-3-pointer team even WITH Amare.

Die-by-the-3-pointer team? You really think so? Let's look at the six Suns losses, and see if 3-point shooting had anything to do with the loss:

Oct 31 at LA Lakers - 13-30, 3PM-A, 43.3%
Nov 3 vs. Utah Jazz - 9-31, 3PM-A, 29.0%
Nov 4 at LA Clippers - 11-27, 3PM-A, 40.7%
Nov 8 at San Antonio - 10-23, 3PM-A, 43.5%
Nov 9 vs. Dallas Mavs - 11-21, 3PM-A, 52.4%
Nov 18 at Utah - 7-18, 3PM-A, 38.9%

The Suns shot reasonably well from the 3-point line, apart from that first Jazz game. The reason why they lost all these games is because they had no defensive chemistry at the beginning of the season. They were still trying to integrate Amare, and it look a few weeks to do so successfully.

The Suns' two worst 3-point shooting performances occurred during dominant wins.

Dec 10 at Charlotte - 5-18, 3PM-A, 27.8%, Suns win 114-84
Dec 11 at Orlando - 4-16, 3PM-A, 25.0%, Suns win 103-89

Obviously, the Suns played pretty decent defense in these two games.

The Suns have developed a defensive chemistry and are winning over and over and over because of it. There have been a couple of nights on this win streak where their shot just wasn't falling, but they still managed to win handily. Furthermore, the Suns now have an inside and outside game--Amare Stoudemire is eating up the opposition, and Boris Diaw is becoming the aggressive point-center that he was late last season.

And lastly, the Suns have a point differential of 6.9 ppg, 2nd best in the league, 2nd only to the Spurs.

[RonMexico]

2005 playoffs.... wasnt Amare Healthy then?? :rolleyes




4-1..... WHOOPS!!! :drunk

Suns are improving in defense.... maybe a fraction.... but they are still a run-and-gun, die-by-the-3-pointer team even WITH Amare.

You're an idiot - duh, they really didn't play defense back then, which was one of my main points. So they go out and get Kurt Thomas to help down low and then both of them get hurt the next year, you fuckin' wiseass... read my whole argument before you post. Amare is trying to play defense for the first time in his career this year and it's good to see.

Hmmm, they don't "die-by-the-3" when they have outscored their opponent in the paint in the last 4 games - and 2 of those games had 7-point stretches inside by Amare to close out the game(s): vs. Golden State and the Kings.

Oh, and btw, the Suns are 14-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500. What are the Spurs, you ask? Why, they are 15-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500, so why don't you do a little more research on your 2006 WCSF loser before trying to talk too much shit right now.

[RonMexico]

:drunk :drunk :drunk :drunk :drunk

And as far as I can see, you're making arguments about the potential of certain players to be effective rebounders, and while that's all well and good, it's not in any way indicative of how they'll actually perform. Rebounding is generally a skill that one has or one doesn't, and it doesn't take long to tell if someone doesn't.

Will you stop fellating Ben Wallace and look at what you just said about potential and it being a skill someone has? Ben had a 0 pt, 0 rebound game earlier this year when he was acting like a little baby (and therefore, had no motivation to try and do the only thing he can out on the court - rebound). So, what happens - the team puts that all behind them, they rattle off a few wins, and he racks up 2 20+ rebound games in a row. I guess he just acquired that great rebounding skill recently is what you're saying? He didn't have to work for position and fight people off and time the ball properly?

Amare and Co. can time the ball very well coming off the basket - where they fall into trouble is that they get lazy in boxing people out and trying to get position and that leads to offensive boards for the other team. Trust me, they're NBA players - they have a rebounding skill, but it takes a few practices where the coaches force them to put a body on a player when the ball goes up.

Ben Wallace wasn't grabbing down 20+ per game in his 2nd season. I guess he worked on rebounding because he soon realized he would contribute nothing on the offensive end, where Amare is more than adequate. Shooting is a skill someone has - rebounding is about brute force, strength, and desire.

[AZLouis]

Let's not forget that only 2 of the 15 teams beaten during this streak had winning records.

Rockets and Magic.

Everybody else were losers and some of the teams were missing guys named Wade, Shaq, Bosh, Calderon.

Impressive streak yes.

Now they'll start playing PO contenders such as Denver (w/o AI or Melo), Wizards (Arenas wants to drop 50 cause of the Team USA thing), and then Dallas followed by SA.

We'll find out just how good the Suns have gotten.

[RonMexico]

Let's not forget that only 2 of the 15 teams beaten during this streak had winning records.

Rockets and Magic.

Everybody else were losers and some of the teams were missing guys named Wade, Shaq, Bosh, Calderon.

Impressive streak yes.

Now they'll start playing PO contenders such as Denver (w/o AI or Melo), Wizards (Arenas wants to drop 50 cause of the Team USA thing), and then Dallas followed by SA.

We'll find out just how good the Suns have gotten.


I'll repeat how the Suns' record compares to the top team in the West:

The Suns are 14-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500.

The Spurs are 15-1 vs. teams below-.500 and 4-5 vs. teams above-.500.

The Mavs have lost 3 games to below-.500 opponents, and have a slightly better edge against teams with +.500 records.

Head-to-head, the Suns need to show they belong there, but don't start bringing up the "soft schedule led to this streak" bullshit. A franchise-record streak and longest in the NBA since the Lakers had 19 isn't anything to turn your nose at. Are you trying to tell me that the stars aligned just right for this 06-07 Suns and no other team (like say, the 05-06 Pistons and 04-05 Suns who both jumped out to 30-4 records) in the past few years? The key to this Suns streak is that they have been beating the teams they should, while in years past they tended to play down to their competition and would get jumped on by a mediocre team.

However, with Dallas next week and SA after, let's hope they can play up to their competition.

[boutons_]

Suns @Mavs on 28th and @Pistons on 31st.

I doubt the streak survives to 2007, but if it does, it will be most impressive.

[phyzik]

Die-by-the-3-pointer team? You really think so? Let's look at the six Suns losses, and see if 3-point shooting had anything to do with the loss:

Oct 31 at LA Lakers - 13-30, 3PM-A, 43.3%
Nov 3 vs. Utah Jazz - 9-31, 3PM-A, 29.0%
Nov 4 at LA Clippers - 11-27, 3PM-A, 40.7%
Nov 8 at San Antonio - 10-23, 3PM-A, 43.5%
Nov 9 vs. Dallas Mavs - 11-21, 3PM-A, 52.4%
Nov 18 at Utah - 7-18, 3PM-A, 38.9%

The Suns shot reasonably well from the 3-point line, apart from that first Jazz game. The reason why they lost all these games is because they had no defensive chemistry at the beginning of the season. They were still trying to integrate Amare, and it look a few weeks to do so successfully.

The Suns' two worst 3-point shooting performances occurred during dominant wins.

Dec 10 at Charlotte - 5-18, 3PM-A, 27.8%, Suns win 114-84
Dec 11 at Orlando - 4-16, 3PM-A, 25.0%, Suns win 103-89

Obviously, the Suns played pretty decent defense in these two games.

The Suns have developed a defensive chemistry and are winning over and over and over because of it. There have been a couple of nights on this win streak where their shot just wasn't falling, but they still managed to win handily. Furthermore, the Suns now have an inside and outside game--Amare Stoudemire is eating up the opposition, and Boris Diaw is becoming the aggressive point-center that he was late last season.

And lastly, the Suns have a point differential of 6.9 ppg, 2nd best in the league, 2nd only to the Spurs.


Thanks for proving my point...., with just the stats you provided they are averaging 23 3's a game, what other team do you know of that jacks up THAT many 3's? Once they face a defensive effort in the paint they will become that jump shooting team that lives and dies by the 3.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks for proving my point...., with just the stats you provided they are averaging 23 3's a game, what other team do you know of that jacks up THAT many 3's? Once they face a defensive effort in the paint they will become that jump shooting team that lives and dies by the 3.

While I agree with what you're saying, of late, the average number of three-point attempts is down. Early season it's all they did, now it's just one of many.

Also, Amare, if you didn't know, has been very close to a double-digit rebounder the last 15 games. Overall, in the streak he's at 9-per. Throw out his three worst games and he's up at 10.25. SO far this year he's had five games of 12-or-more rebounds and a dozen of double digits.

He is improving. It's not even all about the numbers, he's actually bodying up and boxing out now. He's working at rebounding, not just rebounding. That's important because for a long time, Kurt Thomas was the only box-out rebounder the Suns had.

The Suns certainly need to attack the glass. Believe it or not, they are a pretty solid defensive team, so long as they can finish the stop by getting the defensive board. If they can keep other team's offensive rebound totals down, then they will go a long way to improve their defensive statistics.

It would definately be nice to get another quality big like Steven Hunter or Gadzuric, but I don't think they entirely depend upon it. Backup PG is still the biggest concern. Barbosa can play it, but you can tell he's uncomfortable trying to run an offense. He's still a SG first and foremost.

And yes, like AzLouis, I look at this streak as more of a blessing than a sign. True, they are beating the teams they are supposed to, something that hasn't been said of a Suns team in a while. Still, beating just two good teams during the stretch still leaves some worry as to whether they'll be this good vs. better teams.

I would still say San Antonio is tops, followed by a neck-n-neck Dallas/Phoenix duo...

[tsb2000]

While the Suns have won 15 in a row, the Spurs have the best record in the NBA. :)

Mark 2/1/07 on your calendars- it's on!

[stretch]

The Suns manage to nearly push you guys 7 games last year with no amare,kurt thomas, and Raja Bell playing on 1 fucking leg and they eliminated you 2 years ago. They are going to be fucking tough in a series and it is retarded to deny that.
the Mavericks NEARLY pushed the Spurs 3 years ago to 7 games without Dirk. does it mean they were on the level of the Spurs? absolutely not.

ill tell you whats retarded. whats retarded is to think that a team that plays NO defense and cant rebound for shit is a title contender.

[stretch]

Thank you. At least you know more then 2 teams are very capable of winning it all.
I agree the west is loaded too. but the only TRUE title contenders are the Mavericks and Spurs. its loaded for the regular season, but the only teams that are built for the playoffs are the Mavericks and Spurs. only a total fucking moron wouldnt take the Mavs or the Spurs against ANY team in the west in a 7 game series.

[stretch]

BTW the Heat werent exactly an amazing defensive club either yet they managed to win the title. Go figure :lol
they were a far better defensive team, had an intimidating interior presence in Shaq, and could actually REBOUND the fucking ball. the Suns have NONE of that. i never said anything about being amazing defensively. but you at least have to play an ounce of defense, which the Suns dont.

[stretch]

Eh, I still don't see them as a powerhouse come playoff time. Remember, in 2003, the Mavs started out 14-0 and everyone jumped on their sack. Fact of the matter is, the Suns are just the like the Mavs and Kings from 3-4 years ago. All scoring, no defense. Unless the Suns add some rebounders (besides Marion) and start playing defense, they're not going anywhere.
thank you. its nice to see someone knows that the Suns are not a true title contender.

[JMarkJohns]

And actually the Suns last year only made it to game six vs. Dallas. Not game seven. Their other two series were seven games, but after winning the first game against Dallas (in Dallas?), they lost Bell and then the series in the next five. They were close to pushing it to a game seven, but were far too tired to sustain their early game-six success.

San Antonio > Dallas > Phoenix

[stretch]

Dirk still plays NO defense and has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry still plays NO defense and is equally shitty when the game is on the line. The Mavs have NO offensive options besides running the ball through Dirk. Josh Howard still has NO discipline and is an immature punk who gets frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the first game of the year and has to throw an elbow.
I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb fuck you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dipshit comment like that.

[101A]

In perspective:

The Streak:

@ Golden State
vs New Orleans
vs New Jersey
@ Portland
vs Houston
vs Milwaukee
vs Sacramento
@ New Jersey
@ Boston
@ Charlotte
@ Orlando
@ Miami
vs Golden State
@ Sacramento
vs Toronto

[dirk4mvp]

I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb fuck you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dipshit comment like that.


Because his purple and orange shades that are glued to his head won't allow him to see how much of a hypocrite comment he posted about not playing defense and the ball only runs through Dirk when in reality Dallas has 5 players that can score when they want to and PHX is full of spot up shooters who wait till nash delivers a pass. Talk about the offense running through one player.

[Texas_Ranger]

In perspective:

The Streak:

@ Golden State
vs New Orleans
vs New Jersey
@ Portland
vs Houston
vs Milwaukee
vs Sacramento
@ New Jersey
@ Boston
@ Charlotte
@ Orlando
@ Miami
vs Golden State
@ Sacramento
vs Toronto

Nice streak.
They won some tough teams.
:toast

[JMarkJohns]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a Title.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a Title for its fans to stand on.

[Bob Lanier]

Will you stop fellating Ben Wallace and look at what you just said about potential and it being a skill someone has?
I haven't mentioned his name all year. But as for his rebounding - yes, it has always been his hallmark; he had exceptional rebound rates in all his years in Washington and Orlando.

Your point about some 0&0 game is a non sequitur: all players go into slumps. It doesn't mean that they've lost the skills.

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.


Shooting is a skill someone has - rebounding is about brute force, strength, and desire
Was it you who was arguing that Steve Kerr was a better player than Rodman? Jesus.

[dknights411]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a Title.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a Title for its fans to stand on.

Nice post! :clap :clap :clap

[stretch]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a Title.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a Title for its fans to stand on.
i dont see how saying that a team that plays no defense and cannot rebound is not a title contender, means that we are being smug. thats how it has always been. anyone that knows a damn thing about basketball knows that. the Mavs were the same way a few years ago, and therefore they never won a title. the Suns have shown that they play no defense, and are a poor rebounding team, therefore it is incredibly unlikely that they will win a title.

[JMarkJohns]

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.

I would agree with this. I think his ceiling is around 10 boards a game. Maybe 11, but that's pushing things. I'll be happy with 10 per game.

[JMarkJohns]

i dont see how saying that a team that plays no defense and cannot rebound is not a title contender, means that we are being smug. thats how it has always been. anyone that knows a damn thing about basketball knows that. the Mavs were the same way a few years ago, and therefore they never won a title. the Suns have shown that they play no defense, and are a poor rebounding team, therefore it is incredibly unlikely that they will win a title.

You obviously don't watch too many Suns games. I'll give you credit for no rebounding... They are a mediocre, to average rebounding team. Or at least have been for much of the season. It'll be interesting to see if their recent improvement can remain against good rebounding teams like Dallas.

However, if you watched the Suns, you'd know they do play defense. In fact, their defensive plan is rather effective. They swarm. They aren't big, so traditional defense isn't of use to them. What they have is length and quickness and they use it as well as any team uses their size. They force many, many first-possession misses. In fact, last year, they had one of te top-5 first-possession defensive FG% in the NBA. They get a good amount of steals and blocks to boot.

Their biggest problem, rebounding, unfortunately stems from their defensive strategy. Because they swarm, or rotate to the purists, they are constantly out of position for rebounds. They aren't necessarily within rebounding distance of the basket, let alone within arms reach of a man to box out. Because of this, they give up a HUGE amount of offensive rebounds, most of which end up as easy putbacks. These putbacks affect their PPG, their PPG differential and their defensive FG%.

I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it. That's why I'm so anxious for tonight's game vs. a good rebounding team in Denver and then against Dallas, a very good rebounding team.

During this streak, they've made strides. How much is them, and how much was the competition is yet to be known.

However, for you to flat out say they don't play defense is wrong. Maybe last year, when they had no frontcourt depth and couldn't afford fouls, they didn't play much, but this year they have been pretty solid.

They will always have a high PPG allowed bbecause of their style of play, so just looking at their final scores won't tell you much.

They have issues. I'm not denying that. Still, they are not the only contending team with them. That was the point. Last year was last year. Early season was early season. Now is now. Things change. In the NBA, they do so often. You can't use last year's success as a foundation for gloating this season (unless you win the Title, which you failed to do) as none of the teams are the same.

While not entirely you, many Maverick fans have been forgetting this and belittling other fans/teams. They are entitled to root for their team. Remember, it wasn't long ago when your Mavericks were the team routinely getting trounced in the Semi's...

[N4th4n]

JmarkJohns saying things I agree with. What do you know its like -20 here in Phoenix.

[mabber]

You beat me to it RonMexico! :lol I too get tired of these Spurs and Mav fans saying things like this about the Suns. :rolleyes The Suns are improving in rebounding and defense now that Kurt Thomas is back and Amare is playing so well. Cannot wait until we play the Mavs in December. :ihit They are too much a one on one team and we play as a team.

It sucks doesn't it?!?!?! There's at least a full season lag time before the general public (fans) realize a team has changed a bit from their past. Nobody gave the Mavs any respect for their improved defense last season until the playoffs. Only the fans of those teams with decent basketball knowledge understand when things have started changing. Until the Suns show some better defense in the playoffs, no one will believe you and you will just have to live with that. I have no doubt you're correct though as I went thru the same futile effort last season trying to explain that that Mavs were a much improved defensive team.

By the way, I think the Mavs have regressed a little bit in their defensive effort this season thus far. They can still play really good shut down defense when it matters but they aren't doing it as consistently as they did last season.

[mabber]

Dirk still plays NO defense and has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry still plays NO defense and is equally shitty when the game is on the line. The Mavs have NO offensive options besides running the ball through Dirk. Josh Howard still has NO discipline and is an immature punk who gets frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the first game of the year and has to throw an elbow.

I know you're frustrated by some of these moronic Mav fans on this forum, but this is just nonsense. I generally agree with much of your assessments of teams & players usually but don't stoop to just making stuff up (other than Dirk not playing D :lol ). Dirk has been incredibly clutch the last 2 seasons. There's even a video on you tube showing many of his game winning/tieing shots he's made during that span. I'm still amazed that Spur's fans challenge how clutch he is after he basically ended their season last year. Dirk missed one important free throw in the finals and that makes him a choker??? And Terry...Jet is the one guy that is even more clutch than Dirk on the team. He's got ice in his veins. About Howard, while some of what you said was true last year, he's moved on and is playing at an allstar level. Other GMs have mentioned that he's easily the most improved player on Dallas this season and is a borderline allstar right now.

Just ignore some of the ignorant Mav fans on here (there are a few for sure)!!! They (like several Spur fans on here) just like to spout off worthless crap for the hell of it.

[JMarkJohns]

JmarkJohns saying things I agree with. What do you know its like -20 here in Phoenix.

It's been your loss the entire time :dramaquee :tongue

We've never been that different, save for me calling it like it is, and you hoping for what it could be. That was the main difference from the beginning. Unless you're a Sarver apologist who doesn't think that him passing on Marcus Williams to save a few bucks didn't hurt this team, both now, in terms of skill and ability, but also longterm, in terms of financially.

Then we're still at odds.. :ihit

[AZLouis]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a Title.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a Title for its fans to stand on.

Good stuff JMark. As always. :toast

[da_suns_fan__]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.

[mabber]

Suns @Mavs on 28th and @Pistons on 31st.

I doubt the streak survives to 2007, but if it does, it will be most impressive.

I hope the streak lasts until the 28th as I'll be at that game and would be a fun game to watch.

[mabber]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.

See there Ron Mexico and JMarks, there are some moronic Sun's fans as well-lol

[da_suns_fan__]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.

[mabber]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.

I'm not going to argue your points as it's a waste of time, but to say that no one is the least bit worried about Dallas and that the Suns are just too much for the Mavs is a joke. Also, why don't you check the records between the 2 teams the last 2 years before saying the Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas-lol

[Leetonidas]

I am glad to see Amare playing well though. It would've been a terrible loss for the league if he couldn't get back on track.

[JMarkJohns]

See there Ron Mexico and JMarks, there are some moronic Sun's fans as well-lol

Yes... And like those of other teams, when they can't be reasoned with, they are better off ignored. I've tried and have been called every name in the book for my effort. Hell, I've even been said to be Cubby. Those Suns fans from PHXsuns.net will understand that reference. That's a little far, no?

Suns are 10-10 vs. Mavericks in their last 20 games, I believe. To say they "have their way" with Dallas and "aren't worried" is lunacy...

[mavsfan1000]

Though the mavs started out the season slowly they along with Phoenix have been playing lights out for the last 20 games. Dallas has really picked up their defense lately though. Harris is the key to Dallas's defense by putting pressure on other teams best guard. He even did a good job on Kobe. Putting Harris on Nash will hopefully allow Dallas to not have to double team. Anthony Johnson is another option to put on Nash. Dallas should be able to dominate the boards which is where I think the mavs have the slight edge in a series. Phoenix might shoot a higher percentage but Dallas will get more shots.

[PhxDog]

Opposing fans' view of the Suns, by month.


February: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."

June: "Wow, the Suns were actually looking pretty good there, even after Raja Bell went down. Put a healthy Stoudemire on that team, they're definitely contenders and probably favorites.

(Un)fortunately, Amare is done--finished!!--and the Suns will never be able to overcome his albatross contract. Too bad for them, I suppose."

December: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."


Eh, we'll see. For the first time in a long time, I like my team's chances... :toast

[spursreport]

they were a far better defensive team, had an intimidating interior presence in Shaq, and could actually REBOUND the fucking ball. the Suns have NONE of that. i never said anything about being amazing defensively. but you at least have to play an ounce of defense, which the Suns dont.

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.

[dirk4mvp]

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.


Who said the Mavs didn't have flaws?


Teams have gotten physical with the Mavs. See: Spurs, Second Round, NBA Playoffs '06. The Suns were even physical to an extent.


Where do you people come up with some of this stuff?

[RonMexico]

I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb fuck you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dipshit comment like that.

Actually, it's not a dipshit comment - it's pretty common knowledge around the league. I'll give you a few links to mull over and see where you stand. Dirk's "new defense" is just to slap down at the ball like Karl Malone would and then scream like a bitch when he gets called for it. Jason Terry doesn't play any defense at all, he goes under screens all the time and allows open jumpers and has no knowledge of how to play the passing lanes. And since regular season play doesn't matter to you, Dirk is not clutch when it counts - i.e. the 4th quarters of the NBA Finals where he would chunk up goose eggs... real clutch.

[mavsfan1000]

Haslem is an underrated defender. His defense on Dirk was superb. He had the speed and strength to bother Dirk. He also shut down Rasheed Wallace the round before. If there is a Dirk stopper in the league it is Haslem. Posey wasn't bad either on defense.

[stretch]

You obviously don't watch too many Suns games. I'll give you credit for no rebounding... They are a mediocre, to average rebounding team. Or at least have been for much of the season. It'll be interesting to see if their recent improvement can remain against good rebounding teams like Dallas.

However, if you watched the Suns, you'd know they do play defense. In fact, their defensive plan is rather effective. They swarm. They aren't big, so traditional defense isn't of use to them. What they have is length and quickness and they use it as well as any team uses their size. They force many, many first-possession misses. In fact, last year, they had one of te top-5 first-possession defensive FG% in the NBA. They get a good amount of steals and blocks to boot.

Their biggest problem, rebounding, unfortunately stems from their defensive strategy. Because they swarm, or rotate to the purists, they are constantly out of position for rebounds. They aren't necessarily within rebounding distance of the basket, let alone within arms reach of a man to box out. Because of this, they give up a HUGE amount of offensive rebounds, most of which end up as easy putbacks. These putbacks affect their PPG, their PPG differential and their defensive FG%.

I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it. That's why I'm so anxious for tonight's game vs. a good rebounding team in Denver and then against Dallas, a very good rebounding team.

During this streak, they've made strides. How much is them, and how much was the competition is yet to be known.

However, for you to flat out say they don't play defense is wrong. Maybe last year, when they had no frontcourt depth and couldn't afford fouls, they didn't play much, but this year they have been pretty solid.

They will always have a high PPG allowed bbecause of their style of play, so just looking at their final scores won't tell you much.

They have issues. I'm not denying that. Still, they are not the only contending team with them. That was the point. Last year was last year. Early season was early season. Now is now. Things change. In the NBA, they do so often. You can't use last year's success as a foundation for gloating this season (unless you win the Title, which you failed to do) as none of the teams are the same.

While not entirely you, many Maverick fans have been forgetting this and belittling other fans/teams. They are entitled to root for their team. Remember, it wasn't long ago when your Mavericks were the team routinely getting trounced in the Semi's...

they do NOT play much defense at all. the Mavericks a few years ago, when they lost to the Spurs in the WCF, were actually a pretty decent defensive team... statisically. they allowed only 95 ppg, and .438% shooting. however, would anyone that watched the Mavericks even say that they were even a DECENT defensive team? not at all. a lot of it was because they intimidated crappy opponents. teams would just see how good their offense was, and think that they had to outscore them, and would end up failing and taking all kinds of dumb shots. but smart teams like the Spurs and Lakers know exactly how to beat the Mavericks. they knew that you could let them jump to a nice lead, but they would eventually get back into the game, because the Mavs relied too much on the jumpshot, and that they (spurs and lakers) could play defense and rebound, but the Mavericks couldn't. its the same thing with the Suns. they intimidate shitty opponents who are stupid and think that the only way to beat them is to outscore them, thus leading to a number of quick, dumb shots, and stupid mistakes. but teams that play defense and rebound, like the Mavericks and Spurs, know that they can just play their style, and eventually the Suns will fall apart, due to their reliance on jump shots, and their inability to defend and rebound.

the fact is, if you cannot either rebound the ball, or play defense, you cannot win. despite the fact that you said you think the Suns play defense (which it COMPLETELY wrong), you admitted that they are not a good rebounding team. rebounding is a part of defense too. rebounding prevents your opponents from having a chance to score, which is ultimately what defense is. you play defense to keep your opponent from scoring. if you let them get offensive boards and easy putbacks, then you basically are not playing good defense. you HAVE to be a good rebounding team to win games. every title winning team has always had 2 things in common... they could play defense and rebound the ball well. some had great offenses, others had shitty offenses. but they ALL could play defense and rebound. and as much as you may think it will (as I did previously with the Mavs), it will never change. the Suns will NOT win a title, playing the way they do. they can get to the WCF 10 years in a row, but it wont mean anything, because they will never win a title until they play defense and rebound.

[mabber]

Haslem is an underrated defender. His defense on Dirk was superb. He had the speed and strength to bother Dirk. He also shut down Rasheed Wallace the round before. If there is a Dirk stopper in the league it is Haslem. Posey wasn't bad either on defense.

I agree with this. Haslem really did a good job on Dirk. He was kinda like Bowen used to be on Dirk before Dirk figured out how to play against him. Dirk never figured Haslem out that entire series. I think Bowen is a better defender than Haslem but Dirk just hasn't played against him enough. Marion used to bother Dirk as well until they had played enough times for Dirk to figure out how to attack him.

[RonMexico]

I haven't mentioned his name all year. But as for his rebounding - yes, it has always been his hallmark; he had exceptional rebound rates in all his years in Washington and Orlando.

Your point about some 0&0 game is a non sequitur: all players go into slumps. It doesn't mean that they've lost the skills.

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.


Was it you who was arguing that Steve Kerr was a better player than Rodman? Jesus.

Amare getting 25 and 10? I'll take that. That's all he needs to do - must mean that he has a rebounding skill and has learned to exploit it to get an extra 2 boards per game. My point was that Wallace went into a self-induced slump based on his own immaturity and feeling of "being wronged" by the team management. That led to a lack of effort, which is the basis of good rebounding. He starts giving double the effort he did before and he's pulling down 27 boards against the Bucks... that doesn't just happen because of a fluke or because he lucked into getting the ball - it's because he worked hard to get in position and box people out for those rebounds... unlike when he got 0 earlier in the season. What else do I have to say to prove to you that rebounding is more than just a "God-given skill"?

And I said Rodman and Kerr were both keys to championship teams and neither should be discredited for their contributions. Never said he was better - but I did say he was a better shooter than Rodman. Dirk wasn't drafted because he might be able to "learn how to shoot" - he was drafted because he might be able to learn how to rebound to complement the great perimeter game he had coming into the league.

[stretch]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.
I guarantee you that the Suns will not beat the Mavericks or Spurs in the postseason, unless one of those teams has a major injury. Most people in Dallas were not scared of the Spurs a few years ago, but unfortunately, we were wrong, and most realized that unless you can play defense and rebound, you cannot win an NBA title. After this season's faliure in the playoffs, the Suns organization and fans will realize that too.

[stretch]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.
Honestly, the Suns can get any shot they want against any team in the NBA. unfortunately for them, good teams can get any shot they want against the Suns as well, only easier, because the Suns dont play defense and rebound.

[stretch]

Opposing fans' view of the Suns, by month.


February: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."

June: "Wow, the Suns were actually looking pretty good there, even after Raja Bell went down. Put a healthy Stoudemire on that team, they're definitely contenders and probably favorites.

(Un)fortunately, Amare is done--finished!!--and the Suns will never be able to overcome his albatross contract. Too bad for them, I suppose."

December: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."


Eh, we'll see. For the first time in a long time, I like my team's chances... :toast
people said similar things in 02-03, when the Mavs still gave the Spurs a fight, despite losing Dirk. unfortunately, they still believed they could win without defense, and ended up getting beat in the first round the next season.

[stretch]

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.
we arent talking about the Mavs, because this thread WASNT about the Mavs. it was about the Suns. hence being titled "Suns". way to read, numnuts.

and if you want to get into it about flaws, the Spurs have plenty flaws them selves. then again, EVERY FUCKING TEAM IN NBA HISTORY had flaws. no one is perfect. the fact is, the Mavs and Spurs have the fewest flaws, compared to all other teams in the NBA right now, therefore they are the two best teams in the league.

[RonMexico]

I guarantee you that the Suns will not beat the Mavericks or Spurs in the postseason, unless one of those teams has a major injury. Most people in Dallas were not scared of the Spurs a few years ago, but unfortunately, we were wrong, and most realized that unless you can play defense and rebound, you cannot win an NBA title. After this season's faliure in the playoffs, the Suns organization and fans will realize that too.

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a title.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a title" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dipshit comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.

[mabber]

they do NOT play much defense at all. the Mavericks a few years ago, when they lost to the Spurs in the WCF, were actually a pretty decent defensive team... statisically. they allowed only 95 ppg, and .438% shooting. however, would anyone that watched the Mavericks even say that they were even a DECENT defensive team? not at all. a lot of it was because they intimidated crappy opponents. teams would just see how good their offense was, and think that they had to outscore them, and would end up failing and taking all kinds of dumb shots. but smart teams like the Spurs and Lakers know exactly how to beat the Mavericks. they knew that you could let them jump to a nice lead, but they would eventually get back into the game, because the Mavs relied too much on the jumpshot, and that they (spurs and lakers) could play defense and rebound, but the Mavericks couldn't. its the same thing with the Suns. they intimidate shitty opponents who are stupid and think that the only way to beat them is to outscore them, thus leading to a number of quick, dumb shots, and stupid mistakes. but teams that play defense and rebound, like the Mavericks and Spurs, know that they can just play their style, and eventually the Suns will fall apart, due to their reliance on jump shots, and their inability to defend and rebound.

the fact is, if you cannot either rebound the ball, or play defense, you cannot win. despite the fact that you said you think the Suns play defense (which it COMPLETELY wrong), you admitted that they are not a good rebounding team. rebounding is a part of defense too. rebounding prevents your opponents from having a chance to score, which is ultimately what defense is. you play defense to keep your opponent from scoring. if you let them get offensive boards and easy putbacks, then you basically are not playing good defense. you HAVE to be a good rebounding team to win games. every title winning team has always had 2 things in common... they could play defense and rebound the ball well. some had great offenses, others had shitty offenses. but they ALL could play defense and rebound. and as much as you may think it will (as I did previously with the Mavs), it will never change. the Suns will NOT win a title, playing the way they do. they can get to the WCF 10 years in a row, but it wont mean anything, because they will never win a title until they play defense and rebound.


Not that you care, but no one is ever going to take you seriously unless you concede something to the other side. If the Mavs were as great as you say they are they'd have won a title by now-lol If the Suns were as lame as you say they are they wouldn't be making conference championship series.

How do you know the Suns haven't turned a corner on defense this season? Have you watched all their games? I doubt it! You realize you're saying the exact same things that have been said about the Mavs for the last 5 seasons and they managed to change and get to the finals (but they didn't win). You act as if the Mavs are on par with the Spurs when in reality the Mavs haven't done squat but improve their game and move one step farther in the playoffs. The Spurs have won multiple titles. Until Dallas wins a title or two, they are much more like the Suns than the Spurs in reality (perception doesn't count in my book). I'm a huge Mav fan and would like to think that the Mavs will win the title this season but until they do, they're just lumped in with all the other teams like Phoenix & Kings(of past years).

I can really understand why Spur fans get annoyed with some of the Mav posters. Some of you act like the Mavs have actually won something...and they haven't.

[stretch]

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a title.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a title" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dipshit comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.
first off, Charley Rosen is an incredibly biased writer. most people know that. second, i know what it takes to win a title by seeing how the Mavs have failed and failed again, while watching other teams succeed and win titles, doing what the Mavericks COULDNT do. your favorite team doesnt have to win a title, for someone to know what is necessary to win a title. and the fact that you are acting like the Suns are suddenly a better team just because they lost the finals 4-2, but not by losing 4 straight shows how much of a shitbag you are. the fact is, both teams have not won a title. it doesnt matter how you win or lose, the fact is you did.

[Bob Lanier]

What else do I have to say to prove to you that rebounding is more than just a "God-given skill"?
A skil is by definition not "God-given"; it is acquired and developed. Development of rebounding skills usually occurs early in a player's career, i.e. before they make it to the NBA level, and it is rare but it's not unheard-of for a player (like Antonio McDyess, Dirk Nowitzki, or apparently Amare Stoudemire) to progress from poor rebounders to good one or two-space rebounders by working on fundamentals mid-career. But it is unreasonable to expect that -three!- players who have never been very good rebounders will suddenly and miraculously develop the skillset to "step up and make a concerted effort to start rebounding". And it is virtually unheard-of for poor rebounders to develop into great (three or four-space) rebounders this late in their careers.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the Mavericks (and Spurs, Lakers and Jazz!) are not very much, if at all better than the Suns. None of them is a great team, and each has glaring weaknesses that are unlikely to be addressed this season.

[The_Game]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn cocky considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the title. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.

[stretch]

Not that you care, but no one is ever going to take you seriously unless you concede something to the other side. If the Mavs were as great as you say they are they'd have won a title by now-lol If the Suns were as lame as you say they are they wouldn't be making conference championship series.

How do you know the Suns haven't turned a corner on defense this season? Have you watched all their games? I doubt it! You realize you're saying the exact same things that have been said about the Mavs for the last 5 seasons and they managed to change and get to the finals (but they didn't win). You act as if the Mavs are on par with the Spurs when in reality the Mavs haven't done squat but improve their game and move one step farther in the playoffs. The Spurs have won multiple titles. Until Dallas wins a title or two, they are much more like the Suns than the Spurs in reality (perception doesn't count in my book). I'm a huge Mav fan and would like to think that the Mavs will win the title this season but until they do, they're just lumped in with all the other teams like Phoenix & Kings(of past years).

I can really understand why Spur fans get annoyed with some of the Mav posters. Some of you act like the Mavs have actually won something...and they haven't.
when did i ever say ANYTHING about the Mavericks winning a title and being great, etc...? when did i ever say the Suns were lame either? my entire fucking point is that you MUST rebound the ball, and play defense to win a championship, and that the Mavs and Spurs do that much better than the Suns, which is why the Suns will not beat either the Mavs or the Spurs. anyone that knows anything about basketball knows that you must play defense and rebound to win in the playoffs. as a Mavs fan, you of all people should fucking know that, seeing how our team has failed miserably time after time, due to their lack of defense and rebounding.

[stretch]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn cocky considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the title. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.
you fucking moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the title, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my fucking posts you fuckfaced shithead. you must rebound and play defense to win a title. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.

[dirk4mvp]

you fucking moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the title, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my fucking posts you fuckfaced shithead. you must rebound and play defense to win a title. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.



This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

[mabber]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn cocky considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the title. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.

I'm a Mav fan and I don't even like him :lol

He makes a few good points but has no clue how to intelligently articulate them without coming across as an arrogant asshole.

[The_Game]

you fucking moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the title, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my fucking posts you fuckfaced shithead. you must rebound and play defense to win a title. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.

Well done you just proved my point

It's also obvious you are still in your teens. Stay off the crack kid. It's obvious to see when you post. You need to see some help for your language.

[stretch]

I'm a Mav fan and I don't even like him :lol

He makes a few good points but has no clue how to intelligently articulate them without coming across as an arrogant asshole.
thats right. i am an arrogant asshole. im an arrogant asshole because people here are too fucking stupid to simply look at every NBA champion in history, and see that they all were able to win the title because they played defense and rebounded well, and that the Suns do not, and I have simply been pointing that out. i never once said anything about the Mavs being so great as some people said. but they do play more defense, and rebound the ball better. i admitted that. but the fact is, the Suns do not, which is why they will not win an NBA title.

[stretch]

Well done you just proved my point

It's also obvious you are still in your teens. Stay off the crack kid. It's obvious to see when you post. You need to see some help for your language.
fuck fuck shit fuck motherfucking cunt fuck dick sucking cock bitch. is that better?

[RonMexico]

first off, Charley Rosen is an incredibly biased writer. most people know that. second, i know what it takes to win a title by seeing how the Mavs have failed and failed again, while watching other teams succeed and win titles, doing what the Mavericks COULDNT do. your favorite team doesnt have to win a title, for someone to know what is necessary to win a title. and the fact that you are acting like the Suns are suddenly a better team just because they lost the finals 4-2, but not by losing 4 straight shows how much of a shitbag you are. the fact is, both teams have not won a title. it doesnt matter how you win or lose, the fact is you did.

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a title any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.

[The_Game]

Suns defense is not bad at all, It has become quite decent. Their rebounding is far more improved as well

they will need to play some D and rebound yes but there is no reason why they won't. They have a GREAT frontcourt. Amare, Marion,Diaw can all rebound the ball and i won't be surprised if they do a good job at It in the playoffs.

Getting the 1st seed is key to won wins it all IMO. get first seed and you avoid one of the other in the 2nd round.

still think all 3 teams...spurs,mavs and suns have an equal chance of going all the way.

[RonMexico]

thats right. i am an arrogant asshole. im an arrogant asshole because people here are too fucking stupid to simply look at every NBA champion in history, and see that they all were able to win the title because they played defense and rebounded well, and that the Suns do not, and I have simply been pointing that out. i never once said anything about the Mavs being so great as some people said. but they do play more defense, and rebound the ball better. i admitted that. but the fact is, the Suns do not, which is why they will not win an NBA title.

You don't know what you're talking about. There have been plenty of NBA Champions that didn't play the best defense or were the best rebounding team in the league. Get your head out of your ass - the Mavs aren't a shining example of what it takes to win a title, so jump down off your high horse. Their defense isn't that great compared to last year.

[stretch]

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a title any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.
knowing what it takes to win, and your team having what it takes are two completely different things. i know what a team needs to win a title. all we have to do is look at the Spurs. they are a great model of a true title contending team. the fact is, i was not once bragging about the Mavs. all i was simply pointing out, is that the Suns dont rebound the ball well, or play good defense. and in order to win a title, you must do those things. personally, i actually like the Suns a lot. i really wish they could win a title, if the Mavs dont. but i know they wont, because they are exactly like the Mavs were a few years ago, in their inability to rebound and play good defense. that is all i was trying to point out. i never once meant to give an air of superiority or anything like that. i apologize if doing so. but my whole point, is that teams that dont rebound or play defense, cannot win a title. that is all i was trying to say, and a lot of people here completely took that out of context.

[stretch]

You don't know what you're talking about. There have been plenty of NBA Champions that didn't play the best defense or were the best rebounding team in the league. Get your head out of your ass - the Mavs aren't a shining example of what it takes to win a title, so jump down off your high horse. Their defense isn't that great compared to last year.
i didnt say the BEST defense, or the BEST rebounding team. but they all were at least decent, and could do both when they needed it. the Suns cannot. again, i never once said that the mavs are a model of what it takes to win a title. read what i said again.

[mabber]

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a title any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.

I agree with Dirk being soft and Jet not being a good defender, but you said (in earlier post) Dirk & Jet were not very clutch which I disagree with big time.

Outside of all the big time, clutch shots that Dirk has made in the regular seasons, he hit a game winning shot vs. the Griz in playoffs last season. He hit the biggest shot of the season (then made free throw) to send game 7 into OT vs. Spurs last season. He scored 50 pts on the Suns after they had taken all momentum away in the WCF's last season.

All I know about Jet is that I've seen him hit dozens of big shots over the last 2 years. Maybe only one or two game winning shots but he never gets the opportunity since Dirk is there.

[RonMexico]

But it is unreasonable to expect that -three!- players who have never been very good rebounders will suddenly and miraculously develop the skillset to "step up and make a concerted effort to start rebounding". And it is virtually unheard-of for poor rebounders to develop into great (three or four-space) rebounders this late in their careers.

Kurt Thomas has always been a pretty solid rebounder from his days in college where he was one of only 3 people in NCAA history to average a double-double in a season to his career in New York. He just doesn't put up the same rebounding totals he did back then because he's playing much fewer minutes in Phoenix. Amare just needs to get around 10 per game and if he and Marion both do that, then they will be fine. Diaw just needs to have spot duty and pick the rebounds that he should - i.e. 5-7 per game instead of giving up offensive rebounds, which he still does a little too much.

With 20 from Marion and Amare, 7 from Thomas, 6 from Diaw, the Suns wing players just have to do a good job pulling down the longer rebounds to come up with about 10 more per game and the Suns are sitting at about 43-45 boards per game, which is pretty good. In the end, all they have to do is outrebound their opponents for me to be happy - I could care less about where they stand in the total RPG column. As of now, though, they are still -2 in the RPG vs. opponents and that has to change.

[The_Game]

so stretch do you think the nuggets can win a title then?

[RonMexico]

i didnt say the BEST defense, or the BEST rebounding team. but they all were at least decent, and could do both when they needed it. the Suns cannot. again, i never once said that the mavs are a model of what it takes to win a title. read what i said again.

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a title and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.

[mabber]

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a title and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.

I'll be there, should be great game. I hope the Suns still have their winning streak going.

[RonMexico]

I'm excited to see how many wins the Suns can get when teams start tanking it at the end of the season to get Greg Oden... unfortunately, most of those will be in the East, so the Suns won't get too many of those "free" victories.

[stretch]

so stretch do you think the nuggets can win a title then?
nope. they dont play defense, and are not very balanced offensively.

[stretch]

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a title and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.
yea, they can play defense and rebound. but we arent talking about the Mavs. we are talking about the Suns. the Mavs have NOTHING to do with the inability for the Suns to play good defense and rebound the basketball. if they give up 103 ppg, they are not a good defensive team. maybe they are playing defense as you say, but its obviously not very good.

and you have got to be kidding me, to think that a single regular season game will determine much of anything, in terms of a teams ability to win a title. wait till the playoffs, when EVERY game matters, then we will talk.

[stretch]

I'm excited to see how many wins the Suns can get when teams start tanking it at the end of the season to get Greg Oden... unfortunately, most of those will be in the East, so the Suns won't get too many of those "free" victories.
lol, yea. it will be interesting.

[mabber]

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a title.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a title" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dipshit comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.

By the way, this Rosen article is a joke! He assesses an entire team based on one game he saw very early (almost a month ago) in the season??? :lol :lol :lol

I read every player assessment and only agreed with a couple. I wonder if he looks back and reads some of the tripe he writes after the season has progressed some. He's not even close on some of his player assessments.

I can't get over someone assessing a team and it's players based on one game...and this guy gets paid for this :lol

[JMarkJohns]

I'll simply say this; stretch, don't tell me what the Suns are or aren't. I'm not blind, nor a homer in need of an "unbiased" education. If you care to get an education, review my posts on the Suns. You'll learn something and be better off for the trouble.

This whole thing is silly. The worst of it coming from opposing fans who think more of themselves than they ought to, especially with regards to what and how an opposing team is playing and what said team is or has to play to win.

If you've seen more than five Suns games THIS year, I'll be incredably surprised. My guess is you have just passing knowledge on every topic and boost its standing, not with facts or statistics, but by putting down other's takes or other posters in general.

I'd also recommend working on the quality of your posts, rather than the quantity of your postcount. You can't really have an informed opinion on everything related to the Suns, yet, without fail, post after post, reply after reply, you're right there with little to offer, doing such vehemently and excessively.

[stretch]

I'll simply say this; stretch, don't tell me what the Suns are or aren't. I'm not blind, nor a homer in need of an "unbiased" education. If you care to get an education, review my posts on the Suns. You'll learn something and be better off for the trouble.

This whole thing is silly. The worst of it coming from opposing fans who think more of themselves than they ought to, especially with regards to what and how an opposing team is playing and what said team is or has to play to win.

If you've seen more than five Suns games THIS year, I'll be incredably surprised. My guess is you have just passing knowledge on every topic and boost its standing, not with facts or statistics, but by putting down other's takes or other posters in general.

I'd also recommend working on the quality of your posts, rather than the quantity of your postcount. You can't really have an informed opinion on everything related to the Suns, yet, without fail, post after post, reply after reply, you're right there with little to offer, doing such vehemently and excessively.
ok. hows this.

the Suns are 23rd in the league in rebounding differential (-2.16), and 26th in opponent PPG (103.91). now lets go ahead and postpone this discussion of stats until the end of the season, when we have a better picture after a full season played, and then we can also assess their performance in the playoffs.

is that better?

[JMarkJohns]

You can't use PPG. I've already said why. Go back and reread. Thanks.

You don't have to wait until the end of the year, just wait more than 20-something games to write a team off. Early in the year they were getting murdered on the boards. Of course, that was before Amare had been worked back in, before Diaw had gotten back into playing shape and before this team had developed any chemistry.

The Suns have had two seasons thus far this year; pre-Amare and post-Amare. The difference is literally night and day. The current statistics won't properly bear this out.

Again, I want to see how they do against some better teams before I say they've improved, but they are no longer getting slaughtered on the boards night in, night out and have even done the slaughtering of late.

None of which, have you even acknowledged. In fact, when I said such, you either ignored r told me differently, as if your an authority on the Suns more than I.

That's laughable, keed...

[ponky]

dec. 28, that's all that matters...rack up as many wins as you want until then sunbathers, you're going down on the 28th

let me just add that i don't hate the suns the way i do other teams, i just want their streak to end already...i like a lot of their guys, esp. nash, amare and barbosa

[mavsfan1000]

I agree with most stretch says but I'm not as angry as he is. The suns are giving up over 100 points on the average so to me that is a glaring weakness either Dallas or San Antonio will exploit. Therefore the championship title hopes are not likely.

[JMarkJohns]

I agree with most stretch says but I'm not as angry as he is. The suns are giving up over 100 points on the average so to me that is a glaring weakness either Dallas or San Antonio will exploit. Therefore the championship title hopes are not likely.

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot look at the amount of points they give up an say they are bad. Style of play has more to so with this than anything.

Hollinger's stats are mostly useless, but his Point-per-100-possession stat is very telling. Suns are always in the top-15 and last year were actually in the top-5 with Kurt Thomas.

Because not everyone plays this same style, an accurate reading can only be derived from an adjusted rate.

[JMarkJohns]

This year so far...

- Possessions per game - Opposing Points per - Per-100-possession
San Antonio....93 per.................90.6 per..................97.4 per
Dallas............91 per.................93.1 per.................102.3 per
Phoenix.........103 per................103.9 per.................100.9 per

When you throw in opposing FG%, you realize you're just spoutin' off...

San Antonio 44.9%, Dallas 45.0%, Phoenix 45.3%

Essentually you're up in arms over less than a half a percent. Per-100 possessions, your Mavericks actually have a higher PPG average and are just marginally better in contesting shots.

Spurs and Mavericks are both still significantly better at rebounding, but like I said, of late, the Suns have been much, much better.

We'll see...

EDIT: I didn't factor in FTs attempted as possessions. With them...

- Possessions per game - Opposing Points per - Per-100-possession
San Antonio....104 per.................90.6 per..................87.1 per
Dallas............104 per.................93.1 per..................89.5 per
Phoenix.........115 per................103.9 per..................90.3 per

The above is based on FG attempts, FT attempts/two and turnovers forced to derive possession totals. You simply divide the Opposing PPG by the Possession total, then multiply the answer by 100.

The free throws adjusts things. I'm not sure which is how Hollinger does his and I no longer have an "INsider" account to find out. Still, we're hardly talking anything between Dallas and Phoenix this season defensively.

[mavsfan1000]

Since when did rebounding not count as a part of defense? Does it matter if the other teams scores on 2 shots instead of 1? That's why those stats you mentioned don't mean that much. They ignore the suns biggest weakness. Also teams with slower paced games tend to do better in the playoffs since most playoff games slow down.

[BUMP]

win streaks like this dont matter. theyre the 3rd best team in the West and they are capable of beating the teams theyve played. they wont meet those teams when it matters in the playoffs. they're 0-2 against Dallas and San Antonio, the two teams that have eliminated them the past two years. regular season wins mean nothing. all about the playoffs

[JMarkJohns]

Since when did rebounding not count as a part of defense? Does it matter if the other teams scores on 2 shots instead of 1? That's why those stats you mentioned don't mean that much. They ignore the suns biggest weakness. Also teams with slower paced games tend to do better in the playoffs since most playoff games slow down.

Now you're being obtuse? Gracious :dramaquee

Of course it matters. Reread my posts in this thread. I'm simply saying that the Suns rebounded has come quite a ways since the first 10 games of this year and that the current rebounding numbers might not be indictive of their current ability.

That's what I've been saying this entire time. I'm not arguing these points with someone who should know better. You're too smart to get caught up in their mindless game simply because you pull for the same team.

[da_suns_fan__]

JOHN HOLLINGER TEAM STATISTICS (Ordered by Defensive efficiency)

NBA: Defensive Efficiency
RNK Team Pace Ast TOR ORR DRR RR Eff FG% TS% Off Eff Def Eff
Houston 93.3 16.6 15.9 26.9 76.5 52.7 49.9 54.2 101.6 96.4
San Antonio 92.8 18.2 13.8 24.8 75.9 51.2 52.6 56.4 107.1 96.9
Chicago 96.4 17.1 14.6 28.4 77.1 51.8 50.1 54.1 103.9 98.3
Cleveland 92.6 16.5 14.2 29.8 76.4 53.3 48.9 52.8 102.3 98.8
Orlando 92.5 14.3 16.9 29.4 73.4 52.0 49.5 53.7 100.1 100.0
Minnesota 93.4 17.1 16.4 24.6 70.6 48.8 49.3 54.1 99.3 100.0
Dallas 92.4 15.6 14.1 28.0 73.8 51.8 50.3 55.4 106.3 100.6
NO/Oklahoma City 93.2 13.8 14.4 28.6 73.5 50.1 46.4 50.0 97.2 101.5
Phoenix 99.8 19.2 14.4 21.2 73.2 48.7 54.9 59.1 109.7 101.8
Charlotte 95.8 16.2 15.1 25.7 70.7 47.9 45.6 50.3 95.2 101.9
Indiana 96.2 16.7 15.8 27.9 71.3 49.1 48.0 52.8 99.8 101.9
New Jersey 94.8 17.8 14.9 26.8 75.2 51.8 49.3 54.2 102.6 102.5
Miami 94.3 15.5 14.7 25.2 75.2 50.3 47.6 52.1 98.8 102.7
Utah 95.2 18.5 15.0 32.4 75.6 54.6 50.6 55.3 106.4 102.7
Denver 102.3 17.9 14.6 31.8 69.3 51.0 50.4 55.2 106.6 102.8
Detroit 90.4 16.6 12.0 28.7 72.1 50.3 48.8 53.6 106.8 103.1
Atlanta 94.1 14.2 15.7 28.1 70.0 48.8 47.8 52.6 99.5 103.1
Toronto 96.0 16.1 12.4 23.3 73.2 47.3 47.4 52.1 101.2 103.3
L.A. Lakers 96.4 17.8 16.1 27.2 73.1 50.3 52.5 56.6 105.4 103.3
Sacramento 96.8 14.9 14.3 27.2 74.2 49.8 46.9 52.9 101.5 103.3
Memphis 92.0 14.5 15.0 25.6 71.4 47.4 47.0 52.8 99.9 103.4
L.A. Clippers 94.4 15.7 14.2 26.8 75.8 51.1 47.4 52.9 101.2 103.9
Boston 96.2 16.5 14.9 24.3 74.6 49.8 50.1 55.5 104.0 104.0
Golden State 100.9 18.1 14.1 23.8 67.4 46.0 52.6 55.8 105.5 105.1
Seattle 95.2 15.6 15.2 29.4 70.4 49.1 49.2 54.1 103.4 105.1
New York 94.9 14.6 15.5 31.4 74.1 52.5 48.6 53.2 102.4 105.4
Philadelphia 94.0 15.3 14.8 26.5 69.3 47.5 47.3 52.5 99.8 106.3
Washington 96.8 15.4 12.2 27.0 70.2 48.2 49.3 54.4 106.8 107.4
Portland 90.6 14.8 15.1 27.8 73.2 50.4 48.6 54.2 102.5 107.7
Milwaukee 95.3 17.1 14.0 26.5 67.1 46.5 50.7 54.6 104.4 109.7

The Suns and Spurs are ranked first and second in offesnive efficiency respectively, Dallas is seventh. However, the differential between first and second in THAT category is, by far, the largest between any two teams.

Offensively, No one even comes close to the Suns. THey're showing they're top ten (see above) in defense as well.

[da_suns_fan__]

Some other Hollinger rankings

True Shooting percentage:
Suns - 1st (By a RIDICULOUS Margin)
Spurs - 3rd
Mavs - 6th

Effective FG%
Suns - 1st (again by a HUGE Margin)
Spurs - 3rd
Mavs - 8th

Rebound Rate
Mavs - 6th
Spurs - 9th
Suns - 23rd

[mavsfan1000]

Rebound Rate
Mavs - 6th
Spurs - 9th
Suns - 23rd
Bingo!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

The Mavs and Spurs are still better...

[confined]

i believe it was steve kerr who said that the suns are an excellent regualar session team because its hard for teams to be ready for the suns unorthodox style of play...but once they meat a team in the playoffs their opponent has time to get into the groove of the suns style and figure out their weeknesses which are rebounding and defence...if u look at it closly the suns won all of the opening games of their series last playoffs but were nearly taken down everytime because the other team ajusted to their style of play

[The_Game]

or maybe they lost a key player for two games (raja bell)

they won in dallas in game 1, then bell went down and lost the next 2.

[mavsfan1000]

Phoenix was lucky to win game 1 against the mavs last year. The mavs choked that game. Otherwise they would've won in 5.

[JMarkJohns]

Hey, Mavs fan...

Is this Suns team the same Suns team as last year's playoffs? I seem to recall adding players like Amare, Thomas and even Rose, Banks and Jumaine Jones if they can be worked in. Last year isn't an accurate guage for this year.

[mavsfan1000]

Well I guess the suns chances just improved big time with Dirk going down. Fuck.

[RonMexico]

Basically, all that can be concluded from the 5 pages in this thread is that:

(a) We all pretty much agree that Phoenix, Dallas, and San Antonio are the top 3 in the West right now

(b) The Suns rebounding is still poor (thus far) and they give up too many second-chance opportunities

(c) The only argument Mavs fans offer to this discussion includes any combination of "rebounding" and "defense" (or "defence" in the case of the publicly-educated Texans in here), with an occasional "Dirk" thrown in for good measure

(d) Last year's Suns team, decimated by injuries to key big men and their best (at that point - only) perimeter defender, lost in a 6-game series, because they didn't have anyone who could execute in the half-court game

(e) The Suns are 0-2 vs. Dallas and SA (4-5 overall against teams with a winning record - the same mark as the Spurs), but those losses came in a back-to-back while chemistry was a huge problem for this team

(f) Mavs fans haven't watched a single Suns game since Wednesday, November 8 and base most of their opinions about the team on that game and the 2006 WCF

(g) 1 of our 3 favorite teams will represent the West in the Finals

(h) That blizzard ruined my night

(i) I want the Suns to trade a leather basketball for David Lee and see if Isiah takes it

(j) The Hollinger per-possession stat is one of the most important comparative tools among these 3 teams because of the differing styles of play

(k) Suns are second in pt differential (7 pts per game), so they have to play some kind of defense out there and anyone who can't understand that is an idiot.


That is all.

[RonMexico]

By the way, this Rosen article is a joke! He assesses an entire team based on one game he saw very early (almost a month ago) in the season??? :lol :lol :lol

I read every player assessment and only agreed with a couple. I wonder if he looks back and reads some of the tripe he writes after the season has progressed some. He's not even close on some of his player assessments.

I can't get over someone assessing a team and it's players based on one game...and this guy gets paid for this :lol

I write Rosen on a daily basis ripping on his ass for everything - it's really funny that a lot of people read my link and then probably looked at his analysis of the Suns and then started making comments like "oh, the Suns are only good in the regular season... blah, blah"

Still, he agreed with me on a few things about the Mavs, so I had to throw it out there.

[RonMexico]

and you have got to be kidding me, to think that a single regular season game will determine much of anything, in terms of a teams ability to win a title. wait till the playoffs, when EVERY game matters, then we will talk.

Spurs and Mavs fans rip on the Suns all the time because they lost to both of them in the second week of the season.

To quote: "When the Suns beat the Spurs and Mavs, then you can talk to me" -Some douchebag

"Suns are 0-2 against the elite in the West, so they can't win the big one." -SequSpur

[Bruno]

4-5 overall against teams with a winning record - the same mark as the Spurs

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Mrg_Div.html

[RonMexico]

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Mrg_Div.html


Hmmm, how does that rate it? Are the opponents currently over-.500 or were they over-.500 when they played the specific games? Because I'm pretty sure the Suns have 5 losses vs. +.500 teams - at least from the stats I saw.

Either way, it shows the Suns have a winning record against +.500 teams, so that's always nice, even though they're behind the Spurs and Mavs.

[Bruno]

Hmmm, how does that rate it? Are the opponents currently over-.500 or were they over-.500 when they played the specific games?

I don't know.
When you look more closely at these stats, it's quite strange.

Spurs are 9-5 against .500+ teams and 20-6 overall but :
- They have lost 2 games against .500- teams when they played them (Suns and Bobcats)
- They have lost 2 games against curently .500- teams (Bobcats and Warriors)




Either way, it shows the Suns have a winning record against +.500 teams, so that's always nice, even though they're behind the Spurs and Mavs.

I haven't put this link because I agree or disagree with you (I haven't read this thread) but because nba.com hasn't the same stats than yours.

[RonMexico]

I haven't put this link because I agree or disagree with you (I haven't read this thread) but because nba.com hasn't the same stats than yours.


Yeah, some of these stats are kinda fishy... we might have to do our own research. I was just using the example (different numbers than nba.com) to exemplify that the Suns' streak and record aren't all just a fluke to be written off because the best of the West have similar records against +.500 teams.

[stretch]

Spurs and Mavs fans rip on the Suns all the time because they lost to both of them in the second week of the season.

To quote: "When the Suns beat the Spurs and Mavs, then you can talk to me" -Some douchebag

"Suns are 0-2 against the elite in the West, so they can't win the big one." -SequSpur
well, that was "some douchebag" and "seguspur". not me. i will wait until the playoffs to make my ultimate judgement. but from their past, and the several games ive seen of them this season, they still rely too much on the jumpshot, play minimal defense in comparison to all other championship teams, both past and present, are a poor rebounding team, and are not capable of winning a game with their defense. thats what ive seen so far, and what history has shown us. true, things can change, but i saw very similar stats last season, in terms of their efficiency, etc... but they still did not past the WCF. and they really shouldnt have even been in the WCF to begin with. they were incredibly lucky that they Lakers didnt beat them in the first round. they better pray they dont see the Lakers this year too, because the Lakers have looked awful good. I actually see them as being more of a contender for a championship than the Suns. i personally think the 3 best teams in the West are the Spurs, Mavs, and Lakers, but I dont think the Lakers have enough firepower to beat the Spurs and Mavs.

anyways, back to the point, i will wait till the end of the season and the playoffs to make my final judgement. but ive seen probably about 10 or 11 games of theirs this season, and from what ive seen, im not impressed with that defense at all.

[JMarkJohns]

anyways, back to the point, i will wait till the end of the season and the playoffs to make my final judgement. but ive seen probably about 10 or 11 games of theirs this season, and from what ive seen, im not impressed with that defense at all.

You're full of crap. If you watched that many, than you would know better. You're essentually telling me that you've seen close to half their games when not even a half-a-dozen of them have been on national television.

Wait, wait... here comes the "I have League Pass" reply :blah

I've seen every game this season and as someone who's been a statistician and sportswriter for five years, I can tell you without any hesitation that they do play defense and play it for extended periods of time, but, at least in the early part of their season, couldn't rebound. They have been, let's see if it keeps up against good rebounding teams.

Defense isn't the issue, and for you to say such in the face of the Hollinger adjusted stats and efficiency rankings only goes further to unqualify your critiques.

Did you look at the adjusted stats? You know, based on a level playing field where style of play can't greatly affect a teams PPG when compared to another's contrasting style of play and its PPG.

San Antonio ranked 2nd in defensive efficiency, Dallas ranks 7th, Phoenix ranks 9th.

So basically, this all goes back to the statement I made earlier in this or another thread on the topic.

San Antonio > Dallas > Phoenix.

San Antonio is tops, followed by Dallas team that may or may not be any better than a vastly improving Phoenix team.

Spurs greater than Mavericks greater than/equal to Suns.


But that's right, you're such an authority on basketball that your opinion is to be exhaulted above those of paid professionals (Hollinger) and a fan who literally watches and/or tapes every Suns game, not for enjoyment only, but to review and breakdown the flim to analyze strengths and weaknesses, and has done such for the past four years...

[sandman]

While the Spurs, Mavs, Jazz and Suns have all arrived at basically the same place a third of the way into the season, the Spurs have been the only team to not need an extended win streak. As of last night's win, that is the 4th 4-5 game win streak this season, compared to 8 by the Jazz, 11 by the Mavs and now 15 by the Suns in order to reach their current records.

When you consider that TD is playing career low minutes while the stars on the other teams are logging the same if not more minutes than last year, the consistency of the Spurs is seen as an advantage. IMO, I'll take a team that goes 4-1 every 5 games than one that goes 5-5 then 10-0. At some point you can't count on hot streaks to keep you in the Title hunt.

On a side note, speaking of winning streaks, what is more important at this early point in the season- the opponents record at the time they played or their current record now that there is a decent sample size? If we go by current records, the 15 game win streak only has two current .500+ teams, Houston and Orlando, and both of those clubs are playing .500 or less in their last 10 games. Yes, 15 game win streaks are impressive, and the Suns definitely have the hot hand right now, but let's not assume that the conference goes through PHX just because they beat the teams they were supposed to beat.

That's like saying SA is not a contender because they lost to Charlotte at home in the 8th game of the season, playing their 8th game and 3rd B2B in a 14 day time frame. Early season results are always skewed, and no sane, rational follower of the NBA ever thought that the Suns would not be a part of the West elite.

[Leetonidas]

Well if the Phoenix defense really is getting better that's great for them but rebounding needs to improve. The main problem in their defense is Nash. Nash is a horrible defender (at least in terms of guarding TP). TP always gets by Nash with no trouble. The defense at the PG spot needs to improve.

[mabber]

My only worries about the Sun's defense is the same worries I have about the Mav's defense. Most teams are capable of playing good defense in situations but unless you play good, hard defense most of the game it will come back to bite you in the ass in the playoffs. Avery had the Mavs playing hard on defense all last season so when the playoffs came around it wasn't such a big adjustment for them to continue playing hard defense. I haven't seen that yet with the Mavs this season. I haven't seen enough Suns games to be able to make an assessment on their defense but I'm guessing (from what you're saying and their stats) they're playing better defense in situations when it counts. I just don't think that will cut it in the playoffs. As you recall, the Suns played "balls out" defense in the first half of game 6 vs. the Mavs. I was amazed at how hard and well they played "D" that first half. But it was obvious that it absolutely wore them out cuz they had NOTHING left in the 2nd half. This is why the Spurs have been successful for so long. They play good defense throughout games and throughout the regular season. The Mavs were like that last year as well. Until the Suns learn this, I think they will have problems. Yes, I understand that they play a different style which might not lend itself to playing hard on defense as much (cuz they want the other team to jack the ball up quickly) but I think it will be an issue. I'm concerned about the Mav's D thus far this season as well. They haven't played as consistently as last season and I'm hoping it's just the new guys still learning the rotations.

[da_suns_fan__]

This thread is ridiculous. How do I know the Suns would beat the Mavs in a series? Because I 've seen numerous games from both teams now, and the Suns are just BETTER! Better talent, better chemistry, better execution.

I don't need to over-analyze the stats of their first 25 games, its obvious just by WATCHING the two teams play: Phoenix is better!

[JMarkJohns]

When you consider that TD is playing career low minutes while the stars on the other teams are logging the same if not more minutes than last year, the consistency of the Spurs is seen as an advantage. IMO, I'll take a team that goes 4-1 every 5 games than one that goes 5-5 then 10-0. At some point you can't count on hot streaks to keep you in the Title hunt.

I agree with this. I've said such and have been criticized by other more rah-rah type of Suns fans for it. Still...


On a side note, speaking of winning streaks, what is more important at this early point in the season- the opponents record at the time they played or their current record now that there is a decent sample size? If we go by current records, the 15 game win streak only has two current .500+ teams, Houston and Orlando, and both of those clubs are playing .500 or less in their last 10 games. Yes, 15 game win streaks are impressive, and the Suns definitely have the hot hand right now, but let's not assume that the conference goes through PHX just because they beat the teams they were supposed to beat.

Again, I've already addressed this. I've tried to get the point out that this streak should be considered more of a blessing than a sign.

Still, I'll not sit back and allow moronic homers of other teams, who have watched very little of the Suns this season, to pick apart the Suns as though they are an authority on the matter.

I, and others, have provided stats showing that the Suns do in fact play defense and do so almost on par with Dallas, so Maverick trolls who say Dallas is here, but the Suns are nowhere close simply need to be put in their place.

Rebounding is still, and likely will remain their biggest issue. Still, I have hope they can improve to a top-12 rebounding team throughout the year. They have taken some quality steps toward such during this streak. I hope it continues...


That's like saying SA is not a contender because they lost to Charlotte at home in the 8th game of the season, playing their 8th game and 3rd B2B in a 14 day time frame. Early season results are always skewed, and no sane, rational follower of the NBA ever thought that the Suns would not be a part of the West elite.

I don't think any fan has gone this far; to say that a good team isn't a contender because they lost to a few bad teams.

Yes, I've said early season wins/losses and their statistics are scewed.

And yes, I agree with you last statement. Suns need to rebound better to win it, but even without, they are still in the discussion and, as the Suns showed last year, it's a long season frought with injuries. No team can count on being completely healthy and if the Suns happen to get a favorable matchup because of an injury to the opposing teams star, then they could very well stand a chace.

Still, you can't count on that, so it' best that they focus on attacking the defensive glass as hard as they can and go from there.

[sandman]

Mav trolls remind me of those posuers from the pre-paid wireless commercials. They are incapable of recognizing anything other than their fawning and blind allegiance to The Big Hasselhoff.

[mabber]

Well if the Phoenix defense really is getting better that's great for them but rebounding needs to improve. The main problem in their defense is Nash. Nash is a horrible defender (at least in terms of guarding TP). TP always gets by Nash with no trouble. The defense at the PG spot needs to improve.

I've never understood how Nash has always had trouble keeping guys in front of him. He's certainly quick enough on offense. It's the only thing I don't miss about him being a Mav. He was an incredible defensive liability.

[JMarkJohns]

He's quick, but doesn't have great lateral movement. At least not going backwards...

[stretch]

You're full of crap. If you watched that many, than you would know better. You're essentually telling me that you've seen close to half their games when not even a half-a-dozen of them have been on national television.

Wait, wait... here comes the "I have League Pass" reply :blah

I've seen every game this season and as someone who's been a statistician and sportswriter for five years, I can tell you without any hesitation that they do play defense and play it for extended periods of time, but, at least in the early part of their season, couldn't rebound. They have been, let's see if it keeps up against good rebounding teams.

Defense isn't the issue, and for you to say such in the face of the Hollinger adjusted stats and efficiency rankings only goes further to unqualify your critiques.

Did you look at the adjusted stats? You know, based on a level playing field where style of play can't greatly affect a teams PPG when compared to another's contrasting style of play and its PPG.

San Antonio ranked 2nd in defensive efficiency, Dallas ranks 7th, Phoenix ranks 9th.

So basically, this all goes back to the statement I made earlier in this or another thread on the topic.

San Antonio > Dallas > Phoenix.

San Antonio is tops, followed by Dallas team that may or may not be any better than a vastly improving Phoenix team.

Spurs greater than Mavericks greater than/equal to Suns.


But that's right, you're such an authority on basketball that your opinion is to be exhaulted above those of paid professionals (Hollinger) and a fan who literally watches and/or tapes every Suns game, not for enjoyment only, but to review and breakdown the flim to analyze strengths and weaknesses, and has done such for the past four years...
thats right. im the top fucking authority. fuck you and other sportswriters. anyone who PLAYS the game of basketball, knows a hell of a lot more than any sportswriter will ever know. the only sportswriters/analysts i give any credibility to are the ones who are actually played in the sport that they write about. for instance, Charles Barkley. the man may seem biased to some, but he knows what hes talking about. for years, he always said the Mavericks couldnt win because they couldnt rebound and play defense. well, in 02-03, there were plenty of stats showing that they were a much improved defensive team, much like you are showing me about the Suns. however, stats dont tell the whole story. all you had to do was watch them, and realize, while their defense was improved, those stats were misleading, and they were still not a good defensive team, and were a piss poor rebounding team against GOOD rebounding teams, much like the Suns. ive seen quite a bit of the Suns, and their defense is not the slightest big impressive, especially against GOOD fucking teams. its one thing to beat the shit out of teams like Golden State and Toronto. you cant judge their performance against teams like those, and think it will work against elite teams, because it doesnt. but so far, they havent fared well against elite teams, like the Mavs and Spurs. granted, its still the regular season, and there is a lot of basketball left to be played, including the playoffs. but so far, it has not been impressive at all, against teams that actually matter.

once again, i will wait till the playoffs for now, and just let your team do the talking, as they will, once again, fail, due to their reliance on jumpshots, poor defense, and poor rebounding. hopefully one day you will wisen up and realize that you must be capable of playing shutdown defense at times, and be a good rebounding team to win the title. and dont bring the Mavericks into what i said here, like you and your other suns bitches have been doing after every post. what im saying is strictly about BASKETBALL. im not saying anything about the Mavericks being a great defensive team or rebounding team. while im a Mavs fan, im primarily a basketball fan, and obviously know a hell of a lot more about basketball than you will ever know. it already shows in the fact that you think a team that plays minimal defense, and cant rebound is capable of winning a title.

[stretch]

This thread is ridiculous. How do I know the Suns would beat the Mavs in a series? Because I 've seen numerous games from both teams now, and the Suns are just BETTER! Better talent, better chemistry, better execution.

I don't need to over-analyze the stats of their first 25 games, its obvious just by WATCHING the two teams play: Phoenix is better!
grasp your ears firmly, and pull your head out of your ass.

[sandman]

grasp your ears firmly, and pull your head out of your ass.

Funny, but that is what everyone else is saying to all the Mavs fans who think that one Finals appearance makes for a dynasty and conference ownage in perpetuity.

Do it a few years in a row before you start demanding that everyone be your bitches.

[mavsfan1000]

I never said the mavs are clearly better than the suns. What I'm saying is the suns weaknesses will show up more in the playoffs and if Dallas doesn't finish them off San Antonio will. It is key for the suns to get the 1 seed. Otherwise it is almost impossible for them to win it all.

[The_Game]

it is key for both the spurs and mavs to get the 1st seed

[RonMexico]

thats right. im the top fucking authority. fuck you and other sportswriters. anyone who PLAYS the game of basketball, knows a hell of a lot more than any sportswriter will ever know. the only sportswriters/analysts i give any credibility to are the ones who are actually played in the sport that they write about. for instance, Charles Barkley. the man may seem biased to some, but he knows what hes talking about. for years, he always said the Mavericks couldnt win because they couldnt rebound and play defense. well, in 02-03, there were plenty of stats showing that they were a much improved defensive team, much like you are showing me about the Suns. however, stats dont tell the whole story. all you had to do was watch them, and realize, while their defense was improved, those stats were misleading, and they were still not a good defensive team, and were a piss poor rebounding team against GOOD rebounding teams, much like the Suns. ive seen quite a bit of the Suns, and their defense is not the slightest big impressive, especially against GOOD fucking teams. its one thing to beat the shit out of teams like Golden State and Toronto. you cant judge their performance against teams like those, and think it will work against elite teams, because it doesnt. but so far, they havent fared well against elite teams, like the Mavs and Spurs. granted, its still the regular season, and there is a lot of basketball left to be played, including the playoffs. but so far, it has not been impressive at all, against teams that actually matter.

once again, i will wait till the playoffs for now, and just let your team do the talking, as they will, once again, fail, due to their reliance on jumpshots, poor defense, and poor rebounding. hopefully one day you will wisen up and realize that you must be capable of playing shutdown defense at times, and be a good rebounding team to win the title. and dont bring the Mavericks into what i said here, like you and your other suns bitches have been doing after every post. what im saying is strictly about BASKETBALL. im not saying anything about the Mavericks being a great defensive team or rebounding team. while im a Mavs fan, im primarily a basketball fan, and obviously know a hell of a lot more about basketball than you will ever know. it already shows in the fact that you think a team that plays minimal defense, and cant rebound is capable of winning a title.

I've played, coached, and analyzed more basketball than your pussy ass ever will. If anyone is a top authority, I'll take it from here - you don't know anything about the Suns or how they play the game. I love how you use the Mavs as your examples of what "great" and "championship" teams do, but then you say "don't bring the Mavs into what I say here." You're just a whiny, bitch homer who doesn't want to admit anything about the other team.

JET is a defensive liability, as well, but he's not as bad as Nash. Nash is not a good one-on-one defender, but he is good playing the passing lanes. It's obvious Spurs fans don't watch Suns games either, because they've put Marion on Parker for at least the past 5 games the teams have played, so Nash doesn't have to guard him.

Watch some basketball from 1982-1988 and see how much "defense" was played back then. When the Celtics are giving up 140 pts to the Lakers, but still winning, then maybe they played just as much defense as they had to in order to win. Their style of play is going to lead to a lot of points for both teams, but the real test will come in 7-game series to see which teams can make the better adjustments.

[JMarkJohns]

:blah :blah :blah

That was an awful lot of words to say nothing at all...

[RonMexico]

Question is: will the Suns be able to fly out of Denver before tomorrow night's game in Phoenix? What a bummer that would be missing 2 games in a row...

[stretch]

Funny, but that is what everyone else is saying to all the Mavs fans who think that one Finals appearance makes for a dynasty and conference ownage in perpetuity.

Do it a few years in a row before you start demanding that everyone be your bitches.
i have not seen a single person say anything about the Mavs being a dynasty and owning the conference. i know for a fact i never said such a thing. i never even asked anyone to be my bitch. you really need to read my posts a little more thoroughly.

[stretch]

I've played, coached, and analyzed more basketball than your pussy ass ever will. If anyone is a top authority, I'll take it from here - you don't know anything about the Suns or how they play the game. I love how you use the Mavs as your examples of what "great" and "championship" teams do, but then you say "don't bring the Mavs into what I say here." You're just a whiny, bitch homer who doesn't want to admit anything about the other team.

JET is a defensive liability, as well, but he's not as bad as Nash. Nash is not a good one-on-one defender, but he is good playing the passing lanes. It's obvious Spurs fans don't watch Suns games either, because they've put Marion on Parker for at least the past 5 games the teams have played, so Nash doesn't have to guard him.

Watch some basketball from 1982-1988 and see how much "defense" was played back then. When the Celtics are giving up 140 pts to the Lakers, but still winning, then maybe they played just as much defense as they had to in order to win. Their style of play is going to lead to a lot of points for both teams, but the real test will come in 7-game series to see which teams can make the better adjustments.
i never bragged about the Mavs being great or anything. i personally think they are among the best two teams in the league, along with the Spurs. do they have what it takes to win a championship? only time will tell. but they do play solid defense, rebound the ball very well, have great coaching, and have an explosive and balanced offense. you are just a bitch whiny homer that is so fucking stupid that he thinks you can win a championship without defense and rebounding like only a total fuckfaced moron would.

I agree JET is not a great defender. he plays passing lanes pretty well, better than Nash does, but hes a piss poor pick-and-roll defender.

back in the 80s, basketball was a lot different. the VAST MAJORITY of players knew how to shoot. we rarely saw any missed 5 foot jumpers. we rarely saw people miss wide open shots, period. compare the shooting to today, its night and day. people today cannot shoot for shit. this is one reason why i appreciate the Suns. they are a team that knows how to jumpshoot, which opens up their offense a LOT more. ultimately, being able to score inside and driving is what you have to do on offense to win, but being able to shoot the jumpshot makes it MUCH easier to drive and get interior scoring. also, look at the difference of shooting percentages. we have a lot more people that take stupid, unnecesary shots today, as opposed to then, therefore fucking up their team's offensive productivity. back then, shooting 50% was what you would aim for, at least. now, shooting in the 40's is considered normal, the high 30's is not great, but at least somewhat acceptable, and 50% is considered phenominal. another thing that has changed is officiating. there are a lot more ticky tack fouls being called, and less solid, hardnosed defense being played. when you have a foul being called every minute of the game, its a little tough for offenses to get in a rhythm, and it slows the game down, leading to less shots.

dont compare today's game to the past. if you truly knew a fucking thing about basketball as you said you did, you wouldnt say dumbfuck shit like that, you fucking cunt.

[stretch]

That was an awful lot of words to say nothing at all...
The only difference between your face and a bag of crap is the bag.

How's that?

[JMarkJohns]

The only difference between your face and a bag of crap is the bag.

How's that?

Weak... but that's typical.

[The_Game]

Why do you need to swear all the time? If you are a grown adult there is no need for It. Every now and then ok but every post? to swear that much you have to have mental problems.

[Trainwreck2100]

It was pretty weak.... a good put down is "It's people like you that are the reason we haven't bothered to cure cancer" feel free to use that in the future

[JMarkJohns]

Why do you need to swear all the time? If you are a grown adult there is no need for It. ...

There in lies the problem... you're expecting adult behavior from a kid.

Grown ups, if you're listoning, please, help control the pest population... have your Mavs trolls spayed or neutered...

I guess I should take my own advice and stop feeding them :oops

[The_Game]

I think Kori does an amazing job on here but she really needs to cut out all the offensive posters If possible. Or any other mods can. On most places what Stretch writes is banning material.

[BradLohaus]

The Suns will not win a title with Amare at the 5 and Marion or Diaw at the 4. If the Suns could turn Marion's contract into some quality bigs then Phoenix could win it all. Of course they'd have to fire their coach, but we once thought Bob Hill was the man to lead us to the promise land.

[The_Game]

Whats wrong with Amare at the 5? he is a legit 6'11 player who no one can stop. Diaw may only be 6'8 but does alot of good things around the basket. Marion is just a freak.a 20 and 10 player at the SF position is pretty good.

Honestly i don't see why winning a title is a problem with that frontcourt. The only team who can even compare to that is the Jazz.

[stretch]

Why do you need to swear all the time? If you are a grown adult there is no need for It. Every now and then ok but every post? to swear that much you have to have mental problems.
fuck fuck shit fuck.

[stretch]

I think Kori does an amazing job on here but she really needs to cut out all the offensive posters If possible. Or any other mods can. On most places what Stretch writes is banning material.
Kori herself tells people to fuck off from time to time. thats what makes this board 10 times better than any other board. shes a very cool moderator. if you dont like it, then leave, because there are plenty of other people who post FAR more offensive stuff, including many spurs fans. so shut the fuck up.

[The_Game]

You have alot of growing up to do.

Swearing and posting offensive stuff is not "cool" no matter what you think. Forums like these are used for basketball disussion not abusive people who insult and swear at people left right and center.

[mavsfan1000]

You have alot of growing up to do.

Swearing and posting offensive stuff is not "cool" no matter what you think. Forums like these are used for basketball disussion not abusive people who insult and swear at people left right and center.
Go to spursreport than if you're against swearing. lol

[BUMP]

I've played, coached, and analyzed more basketball than your pussy ass ever will. If anyone is a top authority, I'll take it from here - you don't know anything about the Suns or how they play the game. I love how you use the Mavs as your examples of what "great" and "championship" teams do, but then you say "don't bring the Mavs into what I say here." You're just a whiny, bitch homer who doesn't want to admit anything about the other team.


didnt you pick the Suns to beat the Mavs last year? :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[RonMexico]

didnt you pick the Suns to beat the Mavs last year? :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

That was before Raja Bell went down. After that, I pretty much gave up all hope until the first half of Game 6. Then, the second half came around and all was lost. I still think that team had the talent without Thomas and Stoudemire, but once Bell was done, it was over.

[dirk4mvp]

This thread sure has turned into a poo fling for the ages!

[RonMexico]

I just had huge retort for stretch, but my internet went out, so I lost it... man, I'm pissed off - should have copied and pasted.

[dirk4mvp]

Eh, shit happens.

[stretch]

You have alot of growing up to do.

Swearing and posting offensive stuff is not "cool" no matter what you think. Forums like these are used for basketball disussion not abusive people who insult and swear at people left right and center.
lol. i fucking dont fucking think its fucking cool one fucking bit. i just fucking think its fucking funny as fuck that motherfuckers like you get so fucking fucked up over shit like that. oh fuck.

if we want good basketball discussion, then there wouldnt be morons like you who think that a team that doesnt consistently play good defense or rebound the ball well, can win a title. any knowledgable fan of basketball and the NBA would know that.

oh, and if you are going to bitch and moan to me about bad language, bitch and moan at the other suns fans that say the same offensive things. otherwise, shut the fuck up.

[stretch]

I just had huge retort for stretch, but my internet went out, so I lost it... man, I'm pissed off - should have copied and pasted.
or maybe you should have just re-wrote it. or better yet, not even post it at all, as you did, because it was probably some more worthless bullshit saying that the Suns can win it all despite not being a good defensive or a good rebounding team.

[RonMexico]

or maybe you should have just re-wrote it. or better yet, not even post it at all, as you did, because it was probably some more worthless bullshit saying that the Suns can win it all despite not being a good defensive or a good rebounding team.

It basically centered around you saying that I can't bring up the past, but you keep referencing it with your "throughout history, this is how you win championships" bullshit.

And that your only argument is that they give up 100 PPG, which is ignorant.

I'll explain more later using a magna-doodle which is your standard form of communication.

[stretch]

It basically centered around you saying that I can't bring up the past, but you keep referencing it with your "throughout history, this is how you win championships" bullshit.

And that your only argument is that they give up 100 PPG, which is ignorant.

I'll explain more later using a magna-doodle which is your standard form of communication.
dude, you may possibly be the most ignorant moron in the history of this forum (next to Jonathan). its one thing to say that throughout history, and all the way down to our time, all championship teams played good defense and rebounded the ball well. its another thing to compare the amount of scoring in the NBA today, to how the scoring was 20 years ago. more scoring may have been allowed, but teams also scored more PERIOD. its not like championship teams were scoring 95-100 ppg (as most teams average close to in our day), and allowing 110-120 (as teams allowed back then). thats fucking stupid as hell. its like comparing in football. what may work in high school or college, will not work in the NFL. but ultimately, no matter what the circumstances are, you HAVE to have a good defense, and be able to control the trenches to win titles. offenses will change in basketball, but ultimately, you have to be able to play defense and rebound to win titles. anyone that has ever played basketball knows that the most important things are to play defense and rebound. if you do those things, everything else will eventually fall into place.

[RonMexico]

dude, you may possibly be the most ignorant moron in the history of this forum (next to Jonathan). its one thing to say that throughout history, and all the way down to our time, all championship teams played good defense and rebounded the ball well. its another thing to compare the amount of scoring in the NBA today, to how the scoring was 20 years ago. more scoring may have been allowed, but teams also scored more PERIOD. its not like championship teams were scoring 95-100 ppg (as most teams average close to in our day), and allowing 110-120 (as teams allowed back then). thats fucking stupid as hell. its like comparing in football. what may work in high school or college, will not work in the NFL. but ultimately, no matter what the circumstances are, you HAVE to have a good defense, and be able to control the trenches to win titles. offenses will change in basketball, but ultimately, you have to be able to play defense and rebound to win titles. anyone that has ever played basketball knows that the most important things are to play defense and rebound. if you do those things, everything else will eventually fall into place.

It's tiresome to explain things to you. Please watch NBA TV or ESPN classic someday and figure this out. The Celtics would give up 120 PPG in the Finals to the Lakers and still win. That's because they outscored the other team and could shoot. I wasn't comparing straight number totals (in fact, I was denouncing you for having only this "they give up 100 PPG" bullshit argument to describe the Suns defense). Everything is relative.

I have to go get laid right now... by a woman - which is something you've never experienced. So when I relieve that frustration, take a nap, and get back up - I'll come and give you a very long lesson in historical cycles of the NBA, how to play, watch, or analyze basketball, and best lubing techniques next time your boyfriend pounds you in the ass.

You took a 3 line comment by me and put your own spin on it and made it into something it's not.

[mavsfan1000]

Defense has taken over in this league. The Pistons were the first to fully concentrate on defense. Ever since than no team with purely offense has won a championship. The kings of a few years ago come the closest to the suns style.

[BradLohaus]

Whats wrong with Amare at the 5? he is a legit 6'11 player who no one can stop. Diaw may only be 6'8 but does alot of good things around the basket. Marion is just a freak.a 20 and 10 player at the SF position is pretty good.

Honestly i don't see why winning a title is a problem with that frontcourt. The only team who can even compare to that is the Jazz.

In the playoffs the teams that win 1) get back on defense and prevent transition points 2) crash the defensive boards and prevent 2nd chance points (that's why we lost to the Mavs last year) The Suns are 12th in the league in rebounds per game, but they are involved in games with lots of shots because they jack it up so early in the shot clock. They are 23rd in rebounding differential. In fact, they are the only team in the top 15 in total rebounds with a negative rebounding differential, except for the Kings. Rebounding differential is a funny stat. The top 5 in the league are 1.) Utah 2.) Cleveland 3.) Knicks (?, We should steal David Lee from Isaiah while there's still time) 4.) Houston 5.) Dallas. The Spurs are tied for 9th (definitely cause for concern). From what I can tell: You need to be + to be a winning team, unless you're Phoenix, but it's not necessarily true that the more + the better the winning%, but there is something to that.

Remember when Utah played Kirilenko at the 4 and Okur or whoever at the 5? Then they got Boozer and moved AK47 to the 3 and all of a sudden they're the fronline of the future (they're +7 in rebound differential. #2 is 4.4 I think. I don't want to face Utah in the playoffs). If the Suns could get anything close to a Boozer-type 5 for Marion and play him at the 5, Amare at the 4 and Diaw at the 3 then it will be Jazz-Suns out west. Once Duncan gets another ring or 2 and rides off into the sunset, of course. :king

[JMarkJohns]

Interior defense is now the only real defense allowed. There's so many new rules that prohibit perimeter contact and the obstruction of an offensive player that unless said player is just extremely skilled and instinctive defensively, that it's almost more trouble to try. Basically teams are resigned to force to funnnel the ballhandler towards the baseline and the interior defense. Not many players can play straight up man-to-man perimeter defense very well any more. Bowen, Kobe... basically star defenders who'll continue to get the benefit of the doubt. Just look at Jason Kidd. He's supposed to be the best defensive PG and he's getting lit up, by and large...

It's not reason not to try, it's just perimeter defense is much more scheme than individual now...

[stretch]

It's tiresome to explain things to you. Please watch NBA TV or ESPN classic someday and figure this out. The Celtics would give up 120 PPG in the Finals to the Lakers and still win. That's because they outscored the other team and could shoot. I wasn't comparing straight number totals (in fact, I was denouncing you for having only this "they give up 100 PPG" bullshit argument to describe the Suns defense). Everything is relative.

I have to go get laid right now... by a woman - which is something you've never experienced. So when I relieve that frustration, take a nap, and get back up - I'll come and give you a very long lesson in historical cycles of the NBA, how to play, watch, or analyze basketball, and best lubing techniques next time your boyfriend pounds you in the ass.

You took a 3 line comment by me and put your own spin on it and made it into something it's not.
one minute, you talk as if you are an old geezer who knows everything, coached basketball for a long time, etc... the next second, you talk as if you are a fucking nerd, who thinks i give a fuck what you say, thinking i believe one bit of you getting some tonight... by a woman - which is something ive never experienced, according to you. no one gives a shit whether you beat off to some virtual nerd girl or some stupid shit like that. the only people that actually use sex as an insult over the internet, are total fucking twats that seriously have no life, and probably get no sex either. how about fucking yourself in the ass till you're bloody, and analyzing how you manage to chug more cock than Jenna Jameson.

[JMarkJohns]

"Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast."
- Ron Burgundy, "Anchorman"

What the hell has this thread devolved into?

Gracious... Don't you ignorant bastards know that name-calling is stupid?! :)

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to back away from this mess that I helped create.

S-l-o-w-l-y... s-l-o-w-l-y... s-l-o-w-l-y... gone...

[RonMexico]

one minute, you talk as if you are an old geezer who knows everything, coached basketball for a long time, etc... the next second, you talk as if you are a fucking nerd, who thinks i give a fuck what you say, thinking i believe one bit of you getting some tonight... by a woman - which is something ive never experienced, according to you. no one gives a shit whether you beat off to some virtual nerd girl or some stupid shit like that. the only people that actually use sex as an insult over the internet, are total fucking twats that seriously have no life, and probably get no sex either. how about fucking yourself in the ass till you're bloody, and analyzing how you manage to chug more cock than Jenna Jameson.

dirk4mvp, let's never fight again... I'm sorry for all those things I said to you because this douche right here is the biggest asswipe on the entire message board.

And stretch, thanks again for offering nothing constructive to this argument. I always have said that the Suns' rebounding concerns me, but I have been encouraged by their defensive activity so far this year. I'm not going to waste anymore keystrokes on you for tonight.

By the way, your mom was great... :hat

[SirChaz]

Defense has taken over in this league. The Pistons were the first to fully concentrate on defense. Ever since than no team with purely offense has won a championship. The kings of a few years ago come the closest to the suns style.


Then it is time to change again and it is already happening.

The Suns are not the Kings or Mavs, they are the 2007 Suns.


If the Suns don't win the title it won't be because of their style of play but because they weren't good enough.

It comes down to execution and effort regardless of style.

[BradLohaus]

^ No, it doesn't. That's a nice warm thought but it's not true.

[mavsfan1000]

The Heat did to the mavs what the mavs did to the Suns last year. They adjusted to the speed of the game and always got back on defense making it more of a half court game. When teams are forced into a tempo they aren't used to they will struggle. If teams have equal records usually the team with the slower tempo has an advantage in a playoff series.

[BradLohaus]

If teams have equal records usually the team with the slower tempo has an advantage in a playoff series.

Very nice = mavsfan1000 law. Seriously, I think you're on to something there.

[stretch]

"Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast."
- Ron Burgundy, "Anchorman"

What the hell has this thread devolved into?

Gracious... Don't you ignorant bastards know that name-calling is stupid?! :)

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to back away from this mess that I helped create.

S-l-o-w-l-y... s-l-o-w-l-y... s-l-o-w-l-y... gone...
thats cool. i respect that man. i think i shall follow, considering i was the one who started this mess. ill just leave this topic alone, and we can debate again once the playoffs role around, and i will be sure to leave offensive language and such behind. how about that?

[stretch]

dirk4mvp, let's never fight again... I'm sorry for all those things I said to you because this douche right here is the biggest asswipe on the entire message board.

And stretch, thanks again for offering nothing constructive to this argument. I always have said that the Suns' rebounding concerns me, but I have been encouraged by their defensive activity so far this year. I'm not going to waste anymore keystrokes on you for tonight.

By the way, your mom was great... :hat
thank you. you too have a wonderful day, Mr. RonMexico. it was a pleasure debating with you. we will definitely have to debate again come playoff time, when we have a better picture of what these teams are going to be like, and when every game matters. peace out bro.

[JMarkJohns]

thats cool. i respect that man. i think i shall follow, considering i was the one who started this mess. ill just leave this topic alone, and we can debate again once the playoffs role around, and i will be sure to leave offensive language and such behind. how about that?

We actually agree on the Suns rebounding being an issue. I'm optimistic because they have plenty of players that could rebound if they applied themselves and such has been the case recently.

We know why we bickered initially, so I needn't rehash... I'm about as realistic a fan as there is, so when I say something is so, it's generally because it is such. I understand having differing opinions, and if we were having the same discussion about the Mavericks, I'd defer to Mavs fans... since they've seen more of their team than I. So, why would I expect anything less when we're discussing the Suns? I'm not sure there's another on this board who goes to the lengths I do to breakdown a team. Perhaps, but it requires a lot of time and effort, so when said time and effort is called into question with the belittling or ingoring of my informed and generally well-regarded opinions, I'll defend them to the hilt...

I've had many a quarrell on this site with many fan. I admit when I'm wrong without hesitation, so you needn't worry about that.

Again, my only qualm is how you spoke in absolutes when nothing in the NBA is guaranteed. Things change, injuries occur, trades are made, players develop... Now is not then, whether it be past or future...

That's all I'm saying.

Good luck, hopefully Dirk is healthy for the upcoming Suns game.

[JMarkJohns]

In the playoffs the teams that win 1) get back on defense and prevent transition points 2) crash the defensive boards and prevent 2nd chance points (that's why we lost to the Mavs last year) The Suns are 12th in the league in rebounds per game, but they are involved in games with lots of shots because they jack it up so early in the shot clock. They are 23rd in rebounding differential. In fact, they are the only team in the top 15 in total rebounds with a negative rebounding differential, except for the Kings. Rebounding differential is a funny stat. The top 5 in the league are 1.) Utah 2.) Cleveland 3.) Knicks (?, We should steal David Lee from Isaiah while there's still time) 4.) Houston 5.) Dallas. The Spurs are tied for 9th (definitely cause for concern). From what I can tell: You need to be + to be a winning team, unless you're Phoenix, but it's not necessarily true that the more + the better the winning%, but there is something to that.

Remember when Utah played Kirilenko at the 4 and Okur or whoever at the 5? Then they got Boozer and moved AK47 to the 3 and all of a sudden they're the fronline of the future (they're +7 in rebound differential. #2 is 4.4 I think. I don't want to face Utah in the playoffs). If the Suns could get anything close to a Boozer-type 5 for Marion and play him at the 5, Amare at the 4 and Diaw at the 3 then it will be Jazz-Suns out west. Once Duncan gets another ring or 2 and rides off into the sunset, of course. :king

Would Melvin Ely help? If they can get him without trading Marion, Diaw or Thomas, than they add a legit PF/C who can board pretty well and block shots in limited minutes to a highly skilled, extremely athletic frontline that's offensively the most potent in the League...

Word is, they really want him. They wanted him in the offseason, had a sign-n-trade worked out, then pulled the plug because they wanted to see how James Jones would fit. He's been a disappointment so far, but much of it might be the sporatic minutes he's getting. He's worth more to an offensively challenged team like Charlotte, who happens to be sitting Ely at the moment.

Sounds like a trade that works for both and according to the East Valley Tribune, is a possibility.

[stretch]

We actually agree on the Suns rebounding being an issue. I'm optimistic because they have plenty of players that could rebound if they applied themselves and such has been the case recently.

We know why we bickered initially, so I needn't rehash... I'm about as realistic a fan as there is, so when I say something is so, it's generally because it is such. I understand having differing opinions, and if we were having the same discussion about the Mavericks, I'd defer to Mavs fans... since they've seen more of their team than I. So, why would I expect anything less when we're discussing the Suns? I'm not sure there's another on this board who goes to the lengths I do to breakdown a team. Perhaps, but it requires a lot of time and effort, so when said time and effort is called into question with the belittling or ingoring of my informed and generally well-regarded opinions, I'll defend them to the hilt...

I've had many a quarrell on this site with many fan. I admit when I'm wrong without hesitation, so you needn't worry about that.

Again, my only qualm is how you spoke in absolutes when nothing in the NBA is guaranteed. Things change, injuries occur, trades are made, players develop... Now is not then, whether it be past or future...

That's all I'm saying.

Good luck, hopefully Dirk is healthy for the upcoming Suns game.
no problem. like i said, i will wait till the end of the season to make my final judgement on the Suns, and then we can both discuss this with more facts and stats that are complete, rather than stats that will likely change thoughout the course of the season.

[SirChaz]

^ No, it doesn't. That's a nice warm thought but it's not true.


It is not true if you limit your perspective to the very recent past.

Fortunately not everyone suffers from your limitations. :toast

[BradLohaus]

It is not true if you limit your perspective to the very recent past.

Fortunately not everyone suffers from your limitations. :toast

Who has won a title with the Suns style of play in the last 25 years? The 80's Lakers ran alot, but I think they rebounded well. They also had a 6'9 point guard and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, so they're probably not a good comparison to this Suns team. Maybe one or more of those 70s championship teams ran alot and didn't play defense or rebound well, I don't know much about those teams. But, I'm pretty sure that the great teams in this era focus on defense more than the teams of the 70s did. I wonder if any NBA championship team has ever had a negative rebounding differential. I wouldn't think so.

[boutons_]

anybody heard whether the Suns' charter plane will get out early after the Denver runways are opened?

[JMarkJohns]

Who has won a title with the Suns style of play in the last 25 years? The 80's Lakers ran alot, but I think they rebounded well. They also had a 6'9 point guard and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, so they're probably not a good comparison to this Suns team. Maybe one or more of those 70s championship teams ran alot and didn't play defense or rebound well, I don't know much about those teams. But, I'm pretty sure that the great teams in this era focus on defense more than the teams of the 70s did. I wonder if any NBA championship team has ever had a negative rebounding differential. I wouldn't think so.

To me, rebounding is more important than defense. If you simply contest shots, you'll force the other team to miss 45% of the time. If you can rebound largely every one of the misses, then you're in great shape.

However, last year for example, the Suns held opponants to 43% first-possession FG%. However, they gave up the most amount of offensive rebounds in the League. The result, middle of the pack defensive stats and an ouster to a better rebounding team.

Much of it stemmed from who was out for them, but as evidensed this year, not all of it did. They have potential to be a top-10 rebounding team, but for various reasons will likely max out around 14th-16th... If they do, it could cost them.

[JMarkJohns]

anybody heard whether the Suns' charter plane will get out early after the Denver runways are opened?

No. Only that the deadline for departure was around noon. Since noon has past, I assume that if they aren't in the air, then the game tonight is also grounded...

[SirChaz]

I wonder what the Suns rebounding differential is for this win streak.

I think the Suns early season stats are a little out of wack because of the horrible start. It will be interesting to see how good they can become over the course of the season.

I am not here to say the Suns should be favored to win it all but I think they have a chance.

As for today, per AZcentral, Suns are scheduled to arrive in Phoenix at 5:30 after a 4:00 departure from Colorado Springs.

[Obstructed_View]

The Suns only had a horrible start because they were playing good teams. Or perhaps it's just a coincidence that they are 0-5 against the other four top teams in the West?

[SirChaz]

The Suns only had a horrible start because they were playing good teams. Or perhaps it's just a coincidence that they are 0-5 against the other four top teams in the West?


Yes they played good teams but that is only half the story.

They held leads in all of those games but they weren't playing well enough to pull them out.

It is not like they were dominated by those teams despite the record.

[JMarkJohns]

Amare is the difference. Not that he's playing well, but that's he's playing period.

First five games, 15.6 minutes per game. Since, 31.2 minutes per game.

It's no coincidence that as soon as Amare was incorperated and chemistry (re)developed, that the Suns started to compete again.

[LakeShow]

Most definitely Amare is the difference. When I look at the teams, I look at head to head matchups and Matchups in general. I think the Suns have a chance to win a title, if things flow their way. Some teams do not matchup well with them. With the top 5 teams in the western conference, I see only an advantage against the Mavs and the Jazz for the Suns. Marion is still the PF and he can not guard Tim Duncan or Lamar Odom, that alone will create matchup problems for the Suns. The Spurs and Lakers will be able to utilize their size over the Suns. Marion has had success guarding Dirk in the past so he may be able to make him work. Don't know the history against Boozer (if there is any) but the Jazz are inexperienced and will probably pull a Grizzles act in the Playoffs.

Another thing the Suns have to worry about is burning out their starters. Nash is averaging more minutes this season than any of his previous seasons with the suns. He has a history of burning out at the end of the season. Older? More minutes? That's a recipe for disaster! Aside from Amare the others are averaging 30+ minutes a night.