Here's a more reliable way of poltical/cultural change...

[boutons_]

.... than the Repugs invading countries and starting wars to force democracy and freedom on incapable and/or unwilling poplulations.

==================

Raul Castro Urges Students to Debate 'Fearlessly'

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, December 22, 2006; A21


MEXICO CITY, Dec. 21 -- Raul Castro has set a surprising new tone for Cuban politics, telling university students in Havana that they should debate "fearlessly" and bring their concerns directly to him.

Castro's remarks, published Thursday by the Communist Party newspaper, Granma, are the clearest indication yet of how he might reshape Cuba (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/cuba.html?nav=el) after the death of his ailing brother, Fidel Castro. Raul Castro told the students that his brother is "irreplaceable."

"Fidel cannot be replaced unless all of us replace him together, each in his or her own place, carrying out his or her concrete task," Raul Castro was quoted as saying. "Only the Communist Party of Cuba (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/cuba.html?nav=el) can replace Fidel."

Raul Castro, who is Cuba's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/cuba.html?nav=el) defense minister, tempered his remarks by telling the students that a "unified command" is a key military principle, but "that doesn't mean that discussions can't happen."

The notion of freewheeling political debate is almost unheard-of in Cuba (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/cuba.html?nav=el), where many residents fear repercussions if they criticize the government. But it is not without precedent. At one time, Raul Castro encouraged open debate, including criticism of the government, at Cuba's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/cuba.html?nav=el) military college. Such debate has been reined in over recent years, but some experts say they think Raul Castro could one day introduce a similar system of free speech in Cuban society.

"It's true that Raul Castro has tried over the years to open spaces for conversation," Jorge Dom?nguez, a Mexican political analyst who has written extensively about Cuba, said in an interview from Harvard University, where he is teaching this winter.

Granma articles are often used as propaganda vehicles by the Cuban government. Analysts said the article featuring Raul Castro's remarks appeared to address the perception that he is cold and uncharismatic, noting that he delivered his remarks with "customary joviality" and "shared anecdotes" about his childhood.

"That's important," Dom?nguez said. "He doesn't speak well, and he doesn't look good on television, but Raul Castro is a very likable person in small groups."

Raul Castro, who has been Cuba's acting president since his brother's July 31 intestinal surgery, also seemed to be defining himself and, more important, distinguishing himself from his brother. Granma reported that he told the students he would not follow his brother's example and deliver an extensive speech at a convention of the University Student Federation.

Although Fidel Castro appointed his brother interim president, Raul Castro still seems reluctant to seize the official mantle of power while his brother is alive. The Granma article refers to him as the leader of Cuba's military, the second secretary of the Communist Party and the first vice president of the state council. But it never calls him president.

==============

An interesting development. We'll see if it eventually liberates Cuba from oppression and poverty and nepotism. Only when the Cubans (or any population) is ready, wil they modernize and liberalize.

[101A]

Fidel ruled with an iron fist; population was terrified of him.

I hope Raul isn't trying to make his mark early by identifying people opposed to his rule and then...

[101A]

...wil they modernize and liberalize.

So Fascism is conservative AND communism is conservative?

What's liberal?

[boutons_]

"What's liberal?"

do you have a good dictionary not printed by RNC or Rupert Murdoch?

and don't try to read a dictionary on your lap. Your knees jerk badly.

[101A]

I looked it up.

Liberal: Any form of government/economic system Boutons approves of.

Conservative: Not Liberal.

Thanks B, that helped.

[ChumpDumper]

We're talking Adam Smith liberal. That was really knee-jerk of you.

[boutons_]

Figured a right wing, illiterate dumbfuck would be truly dumb, ideologically rigid, and agenda-driven closed-mindedness .

From Merriam-Webster's Unabridged:

Main Entry: libera

Function:adjective

Etymology:Middle English, from Middle French, Medieval Latin & Latin; Middle French, from Medieval Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin liberalis of or constituting liberal arts, from Latin, of freedom, of a freeman, noble, generous, from liber free + -alis -al; akin to Old English l*odan to grow, l*od poeple, Old High German liotan to grow, liut person, people, Old Norse lothiun shaggy, Gothic lindan to grow, Greek eleutheros free, Sanskrit rodhati, rohati he climbs, grows; basic meaning: growing

1 a : of, belonging to, being, or consisting of liberal arts or one of the liberal arts *the studies are liberal, not in one of the technical fields*

b archaic : of, belonging to, or befitting a man of free birth; also : of, belonging to, or befitting one that is a gentleman in social rank

c : of, belonging to, or befitting a free man *the liberal occupations of the gentry of ancient Rome*

2 a : marked by generosity, bounteousness, openhandedness : not stinting *a liberal giver* *a man of liberal nature*

b : bestowed in a generous and openhanded way : ABUNDANT, BOUNTIFUL, AMPLE *a liberal donation* *a liberal quantity* *receiving liberal rewards for the risks they took— American Guide Series: New Hampshire*

c : LARGE, FULL *possessed a liberal lip* *a liberal bosom*

3 a : free from restraint or check : unchecked by a sense of the decorous, the fitting, or the polite *possessed a liberal tongue that was always offending people*

b obsolete : lacking significant moral restraints : LICENTIOUS

4 a : not strict or rigorous *a liberal attitude toward one's children*

b : not
confined or restricted to the exact or literal *a liberal translation of the Greek text*

5 a : not narrow in mind : BROAD-MINDED, OPEN-MINDED

b : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional or established forms in action, attitude, or opinion *a man of liberal views who would not mind making significant changes in the social or economic structure if he felt it was for the best* *liberal in his interpretation of his duties as a governor* *theologians, even the most liberal, will rally to the defense of theology— A.L.Gu*rard*

c [French lib*ral, from Middle French liberal] : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism *the liberal theory of progress— M.Q.Sibley* *the issue of liberal constitutionalism— G.H.Sabine* *the liberal emphasis upon the inalienable rights of the individual— J.H.Hallowell* *the Prussian monarchy was not liberal, but it was progressive and enterprising— Stringfellow Barr* — compare CONSERVATIVE, RADICAL 3a

d usually capitalized : of, belonging to, or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism: as (1) : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom evolving from the Whigs and associated during the period of its status as one of the two major British parties of the 19th and early 20th centuries with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives *the English Liberal party was rent asunder by the explosives of modern nationalism— C.J.Friedrich* *Liberal representation in Parliament has been reduced to a tiny handful— Henry Slesser* — compare CATHOLIC, CONSERVATIVE, LABOR, RADICAL 3c(1), TORY, UNIONIST, WHIG (2) : of or constituting a major political party in another member nation of the British Commonwealth *the Province of Quebec T is the stronghold of the Liberal party— C.E.Silcox* *launched the Liberal government's policy in Australia's federal election campaign— A.E.Norman* *Liberal opposition to Labor proposals in the New Zealand parliament* (3) : of or constituting a minor political party active chiefly in New York and associated with social reform and support of policies favorable to organized labor *the anticommunist stand taken by the founders of the Liberal party*

synonyms PROGRESSIVE, ADVANCED, RADICAL agree in application to a person or thing freed from or opposed to what is established or orthodox.

LIBERAL, the most general term, suggests an emancipation from convention, tradition, or dogma that extends from a belief in altering institutions to fit altering conditions to a preference for lawlessness; on the one hand it suggests a commendable pragmatism, tolerance, and broad-mindedness and on the other a highly questionable unorthodoxy, experimentalism, or positive irresponsibility *a liberal Episcopalian, preferred a non-Gothic auditorium in which the congregation could hear well, rather than merely view distant ritual— Robert Berkelman* *the prevailing liberal movement of the time was Benthamite in its emphasis on legal and social reform, and denounced tradition as the chief obstacle to progress— Michael Polanyi* *don't let us be hampered by routine and red tape and precedent, let's T put a liberal interpretation on our duties— W.S.Gilbert* *if liberal, in respect to language, means *tolerant of change*, this book is liberal. If it means *not strict*, the book is not liberal, or at least not intentionally so— J.B.McMillan* *the strict school of rabbis allowed divorce only on the ground of adultery; the liberal school, on almost any ground— J.C.Swaim* PROGRESSIVE implies an opposition to the reactionary or backward, a willingness to forsake past methods or beliefs in the interests of improvement or amelioration *one progressive publisher is now experimenting with plastic bindings— Third Degree* *the party direction must be moderate and yet progressive and dynamic— New York Times* *the struggle T between the conservative and the progressive mind— G.G.Coulton* *to progressive leadership * a leadership which has sought T to advance the lot of the average American citizen— F.D.Roosevelt* *much progressive economic and social legislation designed to benefit the masses and to break the power of the privileged— A.C.Gordon* ADVANCED usually applies to something high in a scale of development or ahead of its time often suggesting mental daring. It can favorably suggest the extremely liberal or progressive or unfavorably suggest something new and experimental to the point of foolishness or bizarreness *the economic interests of the advanced and backward peoples— J.A.Hobson* *the most advanced nuclear weapons— V.M.Barnett* *the continuing notion among many advanced writers that only difficult writing is good writing— F.L.Allen* *to her own generation she seemed advanced in realism and in daring— F.L.Pattee*

RADICAL usually suggests extremeness to the point of a sharp break with the already established and especially in its political application a desire to uproot and destroy; it is often interchangeable with revolutionary *radical innovators, challenging the authority of the past— G.C.Sellery* *radical and experimental music— Humphrey Searle* *of mild nature and inclined to oppose radical changes in the established order— American Guide Series: Maine* *radical and revolutionary view of the state*

synonyms GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, BOUNTEOUS, OPENHANDED, MUNIFICENT, HANDSOME:

LIBERAL suggests openhandedness and lack of close stinting in giving *liberal gifts to his nephews* *a liberal legacy to his servant* *liberal grants from the legislature* *a liberal serving of pie* GENEROUS may suggest some pleasing personality trait like magnanimity, warmheartedness, willingness to aid, altruism, or forgetfulness of self *he ladled out food with such a generous hand that the Indians named him *Big Spoon*— American Guide Series: Maryland* *if she gave a friend a present * and this must have happened every day, for she was generous beyond the dreary bounds of common sense— Osbert Sitwell* *such a kindly, smiling, tender, gentle, generous heart of her own, as won the love of everybody who came near her— W.M.Thackeray* BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, abundant, and unremitting giving or providing *spare not now to be bountiful, call your poor to regale with you T give your gold to the hospital, let the weary be comforted, let the needy be banqueted— Alfred Tennyson*

BOUNTEOUS has about the same suggestion as BOUNTIFUL but seems somewhat less likely to be applied to persons *the bounteous yields of cotton, alfalfa, small grains, sorghums, melons, lettuce, dates, and citrus fruits for which the state is noted— American Guide Series: Arizona* OPENHANDED suggests free and unguarded generosity; its antonym is closefisted *openhanded to all appeals for charity*

MUNIFICENT may suggest princely or lordly lavishness and richness in giving *had been most munificent to his soldiers. He had doubled their ordinary pay. He had shared the spoils of his conquests with them— J.A.Froude* *guaranteed by the United States government in terms of munificent land grants— Irving Stone* HANDSOME may imply either that a gift is large and impressive or that the giver is magnanimous or gracious *final decision to join the Allies was based on their favorable military position T as well as on the handsome prizes which she was offered— C.E.Black & E.C.Helmreich* *this method of dealing with her, if not lavish, was suitable, and in fact handsome— Edith Wharton*

[101A]

Thanks, Chump; but I don't think Boutons would agree with you.

It's been a while, but from a Wealth of Nations standard, this country (USA) has been getting progressively LESS liberal since its founding; and made MUCH more "conservative" by FDR and people who have followed his designs.

I DON'T think that would be the definition Boutons was referring to.

[boutons_]

"I don't think Boutons would agree with you."

they why bother to post in this thread?

[101A]

Sorry, B; I tend to think of Liberal and Conservative as interchangeable with Left and Right on the political spectrum; poli sci classes, no matter how far removed, do that to a person.

You mean liberal as in "wanting change", as opposed to "conservative" as in wanting everything to stay the same...I get it.

You might try reading some of Adam Smith's works, I think Chump has a copy you could borrow. It will help us avoid confusion in the future.

P.S. See Chump, I told you that's not what he thought.

[boutons_]

I meant Liberal (see the dictionary definition), I would have written Liberal. RIF

[101A]

Good.

Now that that is cleared up; do you think Raul REALLY wants dialogue (I know you can only give a WA guess like the rest of us).

I'm betting he doesn't. He wants to know his enemies more than he wants to give them voice.

[boutons_]

Given that he has history of these attempts while his brother was still competent, this sounds credible and encouraging.

With way the Repugs have fucked up variously in international relations, I am open to anything that sounds encouraging.

And my point remains valid. You can't force a system of goverment and values on a people who don't want it or are not ready for it.

Spain and Portugal moved from dictatorships of 35 years to modern democracies in a very short time and without political violence, and haven't looked back, because the people wanted it, not because the EU or US invaded.

[xrayzebra]

How bout Japan? They don't count.

[sandman]

Given that he has history of these attempts while his brother was still competent, this sounds credible and encouraging.

With way the Repugs have fucked up variously in international relations, I am open to anything that sounds encouraging.



Damn, even in a news event that is completely exclusive to the Bush administration, you still find a way to blame them for something.

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[smeagol]

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Christmas is a stupid Bible Thumper / Holier than thou / red stater / creationist tradition , don't you know that?

[sandman]

Christmas is a stupid Bible Thumper / Holier than thou / red stater / creationist tradition , don't you know that?

Of course I know that! I'm a Bible Thumping, Holier Than Thou, Red State Citizen carrying on a Creationist Tradition. [Or at least according to some around here.]