Another 4th qtr collapse? [Archive]

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 09:43 AM

TP was the only reason the score was as close as it was in the end of the game

You mean when they let him drive to the basket for layups when the game was out of hand? Those points you were referring to? What about the forced jumpshots he took when during the crucial possessions when the Cavs took the lead? Our point guard cannot lead the team in turnovers in the 4th qtr of games!!

This loss isn't exclusively on TP but he had a big hand in it. TP forces things and TD seems more worried about getting calls. At this point I have much more faith in Manu than TP or TD.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 09:44 AM

you cannot hang this on tp. this starts at the top with tim and pop. without tony attacking the basket the spurs would really suck ass.

This seems to wrk for the first 3 qtrs.. Thne Tony goes into teh 'I'm the man' zone..in the 4th

Bruno

01-03-2007, 09:48 AM

Is my TP hate coming out again?

Yes.

MannyIsGod

01-03-2007, 11:15 AM

ShoogarBear

01-03-2007, 11:20 AM

Anybody who can start a thread bashing TP after last night's game gets the title of of Parker Hater Emeritus.

If last night Manu had played like Tony and Tony had played like Manu, there would be 1500 threads (each with 700 replies) about Manu's heart and courage and guts and will to win and intelligence and good looks and cooking skills, and 5000 posts from Walton and the usual gang about what a complete piece of shit Tony is.

I'm still waiting for the first thread giving Tony his propers.

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 11:21 AM

Its not your TP hate, its your complete lack of understanding of basketball that is coming out again. How anyone in their right mind can be critical of Tony after the game he had last night is mind boggling. He was the only Spur outside of Bonner who showed up to play and you have the nerve to ask if he's the most turnover prone in the last minutes of a game? I'm really hoping that question was dripping with sarcasm because if not then I'll have to remember never to take one of your basketball posts seriously ever again.

:lol :lol :lol but, i agreee...

tony was the only player on the spurs last night playing with any sort of passion. manu was bricking left and right and ironically the only shot he hit was a layup. after the 3rd brick you would have hoped he would start attacking the basket to get the lay up or the free throws to get his game going. but no...he just keeps chucking jumpers. this team needs 2 things, another slasher and a firecracker in the locker room to pump these pussies up. aj, elie, kersey all had that fire in them. this team right now is too fucking passive.

1Parker1

01-03-2007, 11:24 AM

This loss isn't exclusively on TP but he had a big hand in it. TP forces things and TD seems more worried about getting calls. At this point I have much more faith in Manu than TP or TD.

:wtf I just don't understand some people. Manu didn't even make a basket last night till about 35 seconds left in the game. As much as everyone loves Manu, me included, he has been highly inconsistent this season and nowhere near the level he was in 2005. TP and TD have been far more consistent this season. Parker played with a lot of heart and drive last night, ironically the same level of heart and drive that everyone always praises Ginobili for. However, if you think all he was doing was stat-padding yesterday then you obviously either have some sort of personal biasness against Parker or you just don't understand basketball, as Manny pointed out.

MannyIsGod

01-03-2007, 11:29 AM

Those of you waiting for Manu to return to 05 level can forget it.

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 11:31 AM

Those of you waiting for Manu to return to 05 level can forget it.

i agree, i just don't think he has that gear anymore. we're seeing the slow decline of his abilities. i hope i'm wrong...

tlongII

01-03-2007, 11:31 AM

1Parker1

01-03-2007, 11:32 AM

Those of you waiting for Manu to return to 05 level can forget it.

I'm not expecting that level, but I do expect him to play better than he has been and be a little more consistent after so many years in the league...

Amuseddaysleeper

01-03-2007, 11:32 AM

Those of you waiting for Manu to return to 05 level can forget it.

:depressed

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 11:42 AM

Didn't Parker have 6 TO's? That is way too many for a point guard.

tony has the ball in his hand most of the time so he will have more turnovers. 6 last night were too many, manu had 3.

tony averages 2.7 turnovers per game which is pretty good considering that the best point guard, steve nash averages 3.7.

people are focusing on the wrong things and wrong people to place the blame.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 12:40 PM

Didn't Parker have 6 TO's? That is way too many for a point guard.

No TP is perfect.. his only flaw is that he has a turnover problem in the 4th qtr during critical times..other than that he's the greatest point guard ever..

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 12:43 PM

Its not your TP hate, its your complete lack of understanding of basketball that is coming out again. How anyone in their right mind can be critical of Tony after the game he had last night is mind boggling. He was the only Spur outside of Bonner who showed up to play and you have the nerve to ask if he's the most turnover prone in the last minutes of a game? I'm really hoping that question was dripping with sarcasm because if not then I'll have to remember never to take one of your basketball posts seriously ever again.

Wow manny i'm hurt.. In guess TP is perfect.. let me ask you did it bother you last night when 'Tony the great' had 2 turnovers and 2 forced shots during the Cavs run? 4 possessions and 8 cav points.. game over...but I guess the rest of the game he was great..

since I don't understand basketball I will give you a football analogy

If a QB is great during quarters 1 through 3 and then struggles with fumbles and interceptions in the 4th would he continually deserve praise for his play in the first 3 quarters? Or at some point can a fan ask that he take care of the ball and not try and win every game by himself?

SpurYank

01-03-2007, 12:53 PM

If those Oberto shots had fallen (he missed two or three VERY short layups, and if we could get Bruce to NOT shoot but instead give the ball up to Timmy, Tony, Matt, or Brent, unselfishly, we'd have won last night's game. Manu didn't make a meaningful basket all night, and the ONE that he made was when the game was out of reach. He also turns the ball over too much. We lack consistency from our three main guys.

Then, too, I believe some of the calls in the second half were definitely for the benefit of the home team. They were getting a lot of boos from their crowd until the calls were made mostly in their favor.

I still think we will be okay. The Spurs seem to go through this every year.

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 12:55 PM

let me ask you did it bother you last night when 'Tony the great' had 2 turnovers and 2 forced shots during the Cavs run? 4 possessions and 8 cav points.. game over.

:lmao

You're insane.

For one thing, neither of those "forced shots" led to any Cavs points because both were rebounded by Spurs. And one of those happened as the shot clock was winding down.

Only one of his turnovers led to a Cavs basket, and indirectly at that, since it wasn't a fast break and they scored at the free throw line.

Tony's not perfect. Never has been. Yet for some reason you idiots insist on holding him to a standard of perfection that can never be matched by any human.

The Spurs scored 28 points in the 8 minutes Tony Parker was in the game. So did the Cavs. I'm pretty sure the loss can be attributed to something besides Tony's handling of the offense in the 4th quarter.

But I'm becoming convinced that some of you don't watch the game, you just focus on whatever Tony Parker is doing and keep a list so you can post them in a new thread when the game is over.

I love it... Is there any other player in the league who could go 6 for 8 in one quarter and have a "fan" call him out for forcing shots?

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 12:57 PM

Wow manny i'm hurt.. In guess TP is perfect.. let me ask you did it bother you last night when 'Tony the great' had 2 turnovers and 2 forced shots during the Cavs run? 4 possessions and 8 cav points.. game over...but I guess the rest of the game he was great..

since I don't understand basketball I will give you a football analogy

If a QB is great during quarters 1 through 3 and then struggles with fumbles and interceptions in the 4th would he continually deserve praise for his play in the first 3 quarters? Or at some point can a fan ask that he take care of the ball and not try and win every game by himself?

the lead dwindled before that when pop trotted out the crappy lineup to start the 4th. rather than attempting to stem the tide by TO or substituting, he completely lost the lead and got 2 techs called on him, pj 1 and we lose. and yet we want to pin the blame on TP trying to hustle and get us back in the game when everyone else was playing like ASS...sure he forced some things but at least he was trying to make something happen. TD just whined and Manu kept chucking brick until he hit his only shot...a layup late in the 4th. so i guess TP should have passed more to Manu or TD even though they weren't doing shit all game.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 01:06 PM

:lmao

You're insane.

For one thing, neither of those "forced shots" led to any Cavs points because both were rebounded by Spurs. And one of those happened as the shot clock was winding down.

Only one of his turnovers led to a Cavs basket, and indirectly at that, since it wasn't a fast break and they scored at the free throw line.

Tony's not perfect. Never has been. Yet for some reason you idiots insist on holding him to a standard of perfection that can never be matched by any human.

The Spurs scored 28 points in the 8 minutes Tony Parker was in the game. So did the Cavs. I'm pretty sure the loss can be attributed to something besides Tony's handling of the offense in the 4th quarter.

But I'm becoming convinced that some of you don't watch the game, you just focus on whatever Tony Parker is doing and keep a list so you can post them in a new thread when the game is over.

I love it... Is there any other player in the league who could go 6 for 8 in one quarter and have a "fan" call him out for forcing shots?

No I don't watch any games. I just pick up the boxscore and post away... Probelm with this is that Tony forces the issue all of the time in the 4th qtr.. I would rather play team ball in the 4th qtr rather than watch TP take a game over..any game.. Is it to much to ask for our point guard to take care of the ball in the 4th qtr? I'm not expecting perfection but at least acknowledge that EVERY possession is to important for forcing up bad shots or forcing a drive into 5 guys? If the point guard is the primary ball handler is it to much to ask him to run the offense and not be the 'man'?

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 01:08 PM

What your asking is for 8-8 instead of 6-8 and no turnovers. Yes, that's too much to ask.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 01:12 PM

What your asking is for 8-8 instead of 6-8 and no turnovers. Yes, that's too much to ask.

what I am asking is that our point guard play like one and take care of the ball in every 4th qtr.

Solid D

01-03-2007, 01:18 PM

Is anyone surprised? I don't know of any other point guard who turns the ball over more consistently in the last 6 minutes of a game than Tony parker... am I wrong? Is my TP hate coming out again?

I think that since there is weed in your avatar, we should send in our local NARC to see where all these WILD ideas are coming from.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/IMAG0108.jpg

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 01:19 PM

I think that since there is weed in your avatar, we should send in our local NARC to see where all these WILD ideas are coming from.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/IMAG0108.jpg

that's not a 4 leaf clover? :oops

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 01:22 PM

what I am asking is that our point guard play like one and take care of the ball in every 4th qtr.

nash averages more turnovers than TP (3.7 vs 2.7), guess he should do a better job with the ball too. turnovers with PG's are inevitable becuz they handle the ball more than anyone else. and if i'm the coach, i want my PG to take care of the ball in ever quarter not just the 4th.

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 01:23 PM

When you're a team that usually has two offensive liabilities on the floor at a time, having a scoring PG is not a bad thing.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 01:25 PM

nash averages more turnovers than TP (3.7 vs 2.7), guess he should do a better job with the ball too. turnovers with PG's are inevitable becuz they handle the ball more than anyone else. and if i'm the coach, i want my PG to take care of the ball in ever quarter not just the 4th.

Every opportunity I get to watch the suns play do I rarely see nash turnover the ball in the 4th qtr. Let me ask you this how many turnovers in the 4th qtr is acceptable to you by a point guard?

LEONARD

01-03-2007, 01:26 PM

Package TP and Duncan for ??????? :fro

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 01:29 PM

Every opportunity I get to watch the suns play do I rarely see nash turnover the ball in the 4th qtr. Let me ask you this how many turnovers in the 4th qtr is acceptable to you by a point guard?

this question makes no sense. every turnover is 1 to many.

i have league pass and have watched the suns play...and nash turns the ball over in the 4th quarter.

dood, no one is perfect not TP, not Nash. if TP was averaging more turnovers than Nash, i'd be worried. but to hate on him because he had a couple of turnovers in the 4th is just misguided.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 01:39 PM

this question makes no sense. every turnover is 1 to many.

i have league pass and have watched the suns play...and nash turns the ball over in the 4th quarter.

dood, no one is perfect not TP, not Nash. if TP was averaging more turnovers than Nash, i'd be worried. but to hate on him because he had a couple of turnovers in the 4th is just misguided.

It's just not this game..whenever the Spurs strugge TP is right in the middle of it usually hurting the team more than helping it. In last year's playoffs (semis)Tony parker had 22 turnovers in 7 games..that's 22 possesions our point guard gave a way in a series that was decided by 1 or 2 possesions.. Nash had 21 turnovers but had an a 3-1 assist/turnover ratio compared to TP's 1-1..

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 01:46 PM

You can't rationalize Nash's TO by how many assist he has.

Sure you can. The only rule is you can't rationalize a PG's turnovers by how many shots he made. Because we all know an assist and a basket are vastly different things.

An assist is two points for a teammate. A basket made is two points for a stupid Frenchie that GGA hates.

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 01:51 PM

It's just not this game..whenever the Spurs strugge TP is right in the middle of it usually hurting the team more than helping it. In last year's playoffs (semis)Tony parker had 22 turnovers in 7 games..that's 22 possesions our point guard gave a way in a series that was decided by 1 or 2 possesions.. Nash had 21 turnovers but had an a 3-1 assist/turnover ratio compared to TP's 1-1..

it's obvious that you don't like tony and no one will convince you that he's doing and admirable job running this team.

when the spurs struggle, TP is in the middle of it along with TD, Manu, Bowen and Pop. TP alone does not cause this team to struggle. His role as defined by pop is to penetrate, and finish or dish. if you don't like his role with the team...that responsibility lies with Pop. funnel your anger there.

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 01:58 PM

So Brevin Knight > TP

I'm quite certain some here believe that.

Eric Snow too.

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 02:00 PM

it's obvious that you don't like tony and no one will convince you that he's doing and admirable job running this team.

when the spurs struggle, TP is in the middle of it along with TD, Manu, Bowen and Pop. TP alone does not cause this team to struggle. His role as defined by pop is to penetrate, and finish or dish. if you don't like his role with the team...that responsibility lies with Pop. funnel your anger there.

TP handles the ball ( I'm guessing) 80% of the time. If he makes bad decisions it affects the team more so than the other players do. I cannot fathom Pop telling TP force it if you have to and take the game over when you want to. If Pop does than maybe he's had to much vino..

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 02:11 PM

38 points given up in the fourth quarter.

38 points.

How the FUCK do you hold a player going 6-8 with 2 turnovers responsible for that?

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 02:17 PM

38 points given up in the fourth quarter.

38 points.

How the FUCK do you hold a player going 6-8 with 2 turnovers responsible for that?

Find where I did and I wil be happy to answer you. Find where I blamed TP for the loss.

aaronstampler

01-03-2007, 02:18 PM

Those of you waiting for Manu to return to 05 level can forget it.

He's not dunking anymore, but take away last night's game and Manu was on a career season pace this year. Look up his Hollinger PER numbers sometime. He's like the 4th highest ranked SG in the NBA, and just a couple ticks behind Redd for third best.

And yes, his rating is higher than Tony's. He had a stinker of a game last night, no question, and I don't know why 5 of his 8 FGA were threes (but I don't know why he only got 8 FGA either) but Manu had an excellent December and it's not right to dump on him after one bad game.

I'm not defending the guy who started the thread, but all he said is that Tony had too many turnovers in the 4th.

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 02:19 PM

Find where I did and I wil be happy to answer you. Find where I blamed TP for the loss.

Another 4th qtr collapse?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone surprised? I don't know of any other point guard who turns the ball over more consistently in the last 6 minutes of a game than Tony parker... am I wrong? Is my TP hate coming out again?

Deductive reasoning. No mention of defensive issues or any other player's woes.

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 02:21 PM

TP handles the ball ( I'm guessing) 80% of the time. If he makes bad decisions it affects the team more so than the other players do. I cannot fathom Pop telling TP force it if you have to and take the game over when you want to. If Pop does than maybe he's had to much vino..

pop tells tony to attack the basket because he's a great finisher with and without the contact. and what's this nebullous makes bad decisions??? hell there a bad decisions in abundance on this team. tony's not the source of it. manu, TD, Pop. my god man, beno is the king of bad decisions on this team :downspin: :downspin: :downspin:

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 02:25 PM

pop tells tony to attack the basket because he's a great finisher with and without the contact. and what's this nebullous makes bad decisions??? hell there a bad decisions in abundance on this team. tony's not the source of it. manu, TD, Pop. my god man, beno is the king of bad decisions on this team :downspin: :downspin: :downspin:

so then a qb and an offensive lineman both make bad decsions in a game should both shoulder equal blame?

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 02:30 PM

If a football team loses 49-47 and the quarterback throws for 3 touchdowns and one interception in the 4th quarter, do you blame the quarterback?

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 02:30 PM

Deductive reasoning. No mention of defensive issues or any other player's woes.

My point is, and is well documented, that TP usually makes bad decisions in 4th quarters of games we lose. I have always harped on his decision making and penchnat for forcing the issue at really bad times.. I have had this problem with TP long before this season..

I have written today a few times of how tired I am of Tim Duncan looking for a call while the other team races down court... Manu is the high risk/reward player on our team. Our point guard should be dependable and smart coming down the stretch.. do I want him to be perfect? Impossible everyone makes a mistake but TP seems to have a habit of doing it at really bad times..

George Gervin's Afro

01-03-2007, 02:33 PM

If a football team loses 49-47 and the quarterback throws for 3 touchdowns and one interception in the 4th quarter, do you blame the quarterback?

Depends is he down 4 touchdowns? Is he ahead when he throws the int? If he does it over and over again in the 4th qtr I'd take him aside and tell him that he needs to take care of the ball in the 4th qtr and rely on his teammates. His job is to make good decisions and take care of the ball especially in the 4th qtr of a close game. This problem with TP is not just one game in my opinion..

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 02:43 PM

so then a qb and an offensive lineman both make bad decsions in a game should both shoulder equal blame?

why not? if an o lineman misses a block causing the QB to make a bad decision, he should be blamed equally. TP's play in the fourth did not lose this game for the spurs. The collapse happened well before TP's turnovers.

Spurminator

01-03-2007, 04:13 PM

My point is, and is well documented, that TP usually makes bad decisions in 4th quarters of games we lose.

And my point is you chose the wrong game to make thread number 18,000,000 on the subject.

timvp

01-03-2007, 04:51 PM

:lol ... I didn't even see this thread before my Tony vs. Manu post in that other thread.

Manu can be the worst player on the team, Tony can be the best ... and Tony still gets called out.

Classic.

VaSpursFan

01-03-2007, 04:59 PM

tony is a capable PG for our system. sure he has lapses in performance during the season (mostly during the playoffs) but he's young and has shown a willingness to get better as evidence by his improved jumper. if he continues to get better, i'm happy.

but...he did not cause the spurs to lose last night thus my issue with this thread. the linking of his turnovers and the supposed stat padding he did at the end of the game...just unwarranted, misguided criticism.