Blind Mavs fans will still disrespect the Suns

[RonMexico]

Dallas lost Sunday but did not hurt its defensive "reputation" by giving up 101 points. The Lakers needed 71 shots and hit 54.9 percent.

The Suns likely will continue to get panned defensively on this thread and across the nation because the Warriors scored 105 and nobody will notice the fact that they took 85 shots (43.5 percent) and still had 25 turnovers.

Those 25 turnovers were the most GS had all season and were not just unforced errors, but the results of the Suns' active defense. No matter what happens, though, Mavs fans will not rip apart their own defense for giving up 101 pts to the Lakers, despite endless ridicule about the Suns giving up 101 to the Mavs. I just want to change the standard Mavs fan response from: "but the Suns are giving up so many points" to something a little more valuable. But that will never happen unless some idiot ESPN writer knocks the Mavs' D first.

[dirk4mvp]

You seem to be going by a couple of games.

[RonMexico]

You seem to be going by a couple of games.

... I'm only following in your collective footsteps, if that's the case.

I still disagree, because I've been applauding the Suns' defense for over 3 weeks now, including the game against Dallas (even though I admitted they had dumb mistakes down the stretch on both ends of the floor to lose that one).

If you need more evidence, then we'll put it on a couple week watch to see how my theories hold up.

[dirk4mvp]

If you need more evidence, then we'll put it on a couple week watch to see how my theories hold up.


Let's do that and see how things go.

[Xylus]

Suns

PPG: 110.78
OPP: 102.78
Diff: +8.00

Off. Efficiency: 1st in NBA
Def. Efficiency: 8th in NBA



Mavs:

PPG: 98.51
OPP: 91.94
Diff: +6.57

Off. Efficiency: 5th in NBA
Def. Efficiency: 6th in NBA



The Suns started the year with a terrible defensive efficiency rank, and have been slowly creeping up all season. So the difference between Dallas and Phoenix on defense is two spots, 6th and 8th respectively. We'll check back at the end of January and see where these two teams are.

[ponky]

well, you started the thread, not us...all i have to say is, 0-5 against the spurs, mavs, jazz

[tlongII]

I've been saying for a while that the Suns are the best team in the NBA. The Mavs fans and Spurs fans keep acting like its between their two teams, but they are fools.

[Nashfan]

All I have to say is that you have been blown out by a few teams and have lost to both the Spurs and Jazz also.

Loss to Spurs 97-91
Loss to Rockets 107-76.....blowout
Loss to Warriors 107-104
Loss to Clippers 103-85.....blowout
Loss to Wizards 106-96.....semi-blowout
Loss to Pistons 92-82.....semi-blowout
Loss to Jazz 101-79.....blowout
Loss to Lakers 101-98

In all eight Suns losses we were never blown out.

[mavsfan1000]

I've been saying for a while that the Suns are the best team in the NBA. The Mavs fans and Spurs fans keep acting like its between their two teams, but they are fools.
Well you are wrong. The suns are the second best team, spurs the third best team, and the lakers 4th best.

[lurker]

well, you started the thread, not us...all i have to say is, 0-5 against the spurs, mavs, jazz
Yeah, I'm not really seeing how the Suns can be considered the better team right now when they haven't gotten a win against the other 3 top teams in the West.

[BUMP]

Yeah, I'm not really seeing how the Suns can be considered the better team right now when they haven't gotten a win against the other 3 top teams in the West.

exactly. they are just beating up on the bad teams to pad their stats and make it look like they are better than us. the W's and L's are the only indicator.

[Findog]

Dallas lost Sunday but did not hurt its defensive "reputation" by giving up 101 points. The Lakers needed 71 shots and hit 54.9 percent.

The Suns likely will continue to get panned defensively on this thread and across the nation because the Warriors scored 105 and nobody will notice the fact that they took 85 shots (43.5 percent) and still had 25 turnovers.

Those 25 turnovers were the most GS had all season and were not just unforced errors, but the results of the Suns' active defense. No matter what happens, though, Mavs fans will not rip apart their own defense for giving up 101 pts to the Lakers, despite endless ridicule about the Suns giving up 101 to the Mavs. I just want to change the standard Mavs fan response from: "but the Suns are giving up so many points" to something a little more valuable. But that will never happen unless some idiot ESPN writer knocks the Mavs' D first.

The Mavs held a better team to fewer points. Phoenix absolutely can win a title playing the way they do, but right now I think Dallas is a hair better. Doesn't matter until they meet in May.

[da_suns_fan__]

Dallas is better defensively, but Phoenix just has way too much firepower for the Mavs to keep up with.

And they have Nash.

[Findog]

Dallas is better defensively, but Phoenix just has way too much firepower for the Mavs to keep up with.

And they have Nash.

Having Nash is fine if you want to win a game in February. Having Nash in late May is another story. He needs to be limited to 35 minutes a game to have enough left in the later rounds of the playoffs. The biggest boost the Suns got from getting Amare back is another guy for their rotation. They had to play Dallas with basically 6 guys last year.

When it comes to Dallas and Phoenix in the playoffs, Dallas is better at forcing a slower pace and getting stops in the fourth quarter. Dallas has become San Antonio and Phoenix has become Dallas.

[Amare_32]

well, you started the thread, not us...all i have to say is, 0-5 against the spurs, mavs, jazz


Why do you keep harping on this? Last year the Heat were

0-2 vs Phoenix
0-2 vs Spurs
0-2 vs Mavs
1-3 vs Nets
1-3 vs Pistons

They still managed to win the title granted the Mavs choked but still.
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[da_suns_fan__]

Having Nash is fine if you want to win a game in February. Having Nash in late May is another story. He needs to be limited to 35 minutes a game to have enough left in the later rounds of the playoffs. The biggest boost the Suns got from getting Amare back is another guy for their rotation. They had to play Dallas with basically 6 guys last year.

When it comes to Dallas and Phoenix in the playoffs, Dallas is better at forcing a slower pace and getting stops in the fourth quarter. Dallas has become San Antonio and Phoenix has become Dallas.

:rolleyes

How original.

Any more cliches?

Nevermind...if you think that Dallas ever had an inside presence like Amare Stoudemire, then your posts aren't even worth reading.

[Amare_32]

Having Nash is fine if you want to win a game in February. Having Nash in late May is another story. He needs to be limited to 35 minutes a game to have enough left in the later rounds of the playoffs. The biggest boost the Suns got from getting Amare back is another guy for their rotation. They had to play Dallas with basically 6 guys last year.

When it comes to Dallas and Phoenix in the playoffs, Dallas is better at forcing a slower pace and getting stops in the fourth quarter. Dallas has become San Antonio and Phoenix has become Dallas.

Amare is more than just one more guy in the rotation. That is as dumb as saying Wade is just part of the Heat's rotation.
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[stretch]

Why do you keep harping on this? Last year the Heat were

0-2 vs Phoenix
0-2 vs Spurs
0-2 vs Mavs
1-3 vs Nets
1-3 vs Pistons

They still managed to win the title granted the Mavs choked but still.
funny how yall constantly talk shit about the Mavs, considering the Suns havent gotten any farther than the Mavs recently. 1 year, the Suns beat the Mavs, then got owned by the Spurs. then last year, the Mavs beat the Suns, and got to the finals, but unfortunately lost. and now this year, the Mavs are clearly the better team so far. you guys are total fucking morons. wait until the playoffs to talk shit.

[BradLohaus]

I said this before in another Suns thread, but the reason I can't see the Suns winning the title with their current roster and style is because of one stat: rebounding differential. Here's the NBA team rankings on RebDiff from NBA.com

1 Utah +5.94
2 New York +5.13
3 Cleveland +4.45
4 Houston +4.26
5 Dallas +3.85
6 Orlando +3.71
7 San Antonio +1.48
8 New Jersey +1.45
9 Denver +1.41
10 Chicago +1.32
11 Detroit +1.32
12 L.A. Clippers +1.20
13 NO/Okla. City +1.00
14 Portland +0.62
15 L.A. Lakers +0.44
16 Minnesota +0.15
17 Miami -0.33
18 Boston -0.84
19 Indiana -1.05
20 Sacramento -1.35
21 Charlotte -2.25
22 Atlanta -2.42
23 Washington -2.69
24 Seattle -3.19
25 Phoenix -3.27
26 Memphis -3.62
27 Philadelphia -3.72
28 Toronto -3.88
29 Milwaukee -4.03
30 Golden State -5.52

The correlation between +RebDiff and Wins has to be pretty strong. Of course, 2 teams really jump out at you in that list: the Knicks are 2nd and the Suns are 25th. I won't touch NY since this is a Suns thread. As for Phx, I think they were -2 when I checked a couple of weeks ago, and now they're -3.3. How can they win 4 seven game series while giving up more boards than they get? They would have to stay very hot for a very long time for that to happen, maybe even hotter than any postseason team has been before. As I wondered in the other thread, has any team ever won the title with a negative rebounding differential? I wouldn't think so.

[Xylus]

I agree with Brad that rebounding is our team's greatest weakness. I've been saying for awhile that the Suns need to pick up a strong rebounder soon. I'd love to have David Lee, but I'm afraid that acquiring him is nothing more than a pipe dream.

The Suns' rebounding has gone down primarily because Shawn Marion has been guarding a lot of point guards and shooting guards. As a result, he's forced to defend on the perimeter, rather than in the paint, where he'd be in a better position to grab rebounds.

[RonMexico]

The correlation between +RebDiff and Wins has to be pretty strong. Of course, 2 teams really jump out at you in that list: the Knicks are 2nd and the Suns are 25th. I won't touch NY since this is a Suns thread. As for Phx, I think they were -2 when I checked a couple of weeks ago, and now they're -3.3. How can they win 4 seven game series while giving up more boards than they get? They would have to stay very hot for a very long time for that to happen, maybe even hotter than any postseason team has been before. As I wondered in the other thread, has any team ever won the title with a negative rebounding differential? I wouldn't think so.

I agree with your point, but I want to make a slight modification: Defensive rebounding is their greatest weakness. I like to think that the Suns can maintain a 48%+ FG in the playoffs as they have in the regular season through 33 games. Only a handful of those top rebounding teams have high shooting percentages and 2 of them in particular (Utah and SA) are traditionally good rebounding teams. There isn't a direct correlation, but I see a pattern of teams with positive RebDiff not having the highest shooting percentage, which can lead to a few extra rebounds. The Suns are still losing the rebounding battle by 3-4 boards per game even in blowouts, so I'm only concerned about the close games with good teams.

[mabber]

I agree with your point, but I want to make a slight modification: Defensive rebounding is their greatest weakness. I like to think that the Suns can maintain a 48%+ FG in the playoffs as they have in the regular season through 33 games. Only a handful of those top rebounding teams have high shooting percentages and 2 of them in particular (Utah and SA) are traditionally good rebounding teams. There isn't a direct correlation, but I see a pattern of teams with positive RebDiff not having the highest shooting percentage, which can lead to a few extra rebounds. The Suns are still losing the rebounding battle by 3-4 boards per game even in blowouts, so I'm only concerned about the close games with good teams.

From one who had the same chip on his shoulder last season in regards to the Mav's D getting no respect...you need to just forget about it. Assuming you're correct about the much improved Sun's D, they'll get their respect once the nation (and Mav fans) get to see it in the playoffs. Trust me, it will be a lot easier on you if you don't worry about it right now.

[Shank]

'Suns' and 'defense' don't belong in the same sentence. The Suns idea of defense is letting the other team get into a trackmeet with them and blindly jack up shots to try to keep up. The 0-5 against the top teams in the West is quite damning. They're winless against them because these other teams can force the Suns to change their style and have the weapons to take Phoenix out of their game.

The only thing the West has to fear about the Suns when it comes playoff time is if they'll be able to outscore Phoenix. There's no concern about if Phoenix will be able to shut them down.

[RonMexico]

'Suns' and 'defense' don't belong in the same sentence. The Suns idea of defense is letting the other team get into a trackmeet with them and blindly jack up shots to try to keep up. The 0-5 against the top teams in the West is quite damning. They're winless against them because these other teams can force the Suns to change their style and have the weapons to take Phoenix out of their game.

The only thing the West has to fear about the Suns when it comes playoff time is if they'll be able to outscore Phoenix. There's no concern about if Phoenix will be able to shut them down.

I'm glad you proved my point... thanks for throwing out the same regurgitated stat of "0-5" as your backup - your ignorance keeps this thread going...

[Shank]

I proved your point that the Suns STILL can't hang with the top teams in the West? Ok, then. I guess we can delete this thread since it has no value whatsoever until Phoenix stops padding the stats against Toronto.

[Shank]

I don't get you, dude. You're alway on here, clamoring for people to respect the Suns. And then you take stats and skew them in your favor when we all know the only thing that matters is wins and losses. The Colts had the worst run defense in the NFL and somehow held Larry Johnson to a handful of yards on Saturday. In the end, the numbers don't mean a thing.

Wins. And losses. There's no in-between.

[mabber]

'Suns' and 'defense' don't belong in the same sentence. The Suns idea of defense is letting the other team get into a trackmeet with them and blindly jack up shots to try to keep up. The 0-5 against the top teams in the West is quite damning. They're winless against them because these other teams can force the Suns to change their style and have the weapons to take Phoenix out of their game.

The only thing the West has to fear about the Suns when it comes playoff time is if they'll be able to outscore Phoenix. There's no concern about if Phoenix will be able to shut them down.

I believe the point that is trying to be made is that the Suns are playing better D late in games when they need a stop. Obviously, their system is predicated on trying to play up-tempo and making the game more wide open but Ron Mexico is saying that they're better in key situations this season (I think that's the jist of what he's trying to say). Other than the games with Dallas and a couple of others I haven't seen the Suns play enough to comment on their defense.

I have no doubt that the Suns can play good defense when they put their mind to it, but I'm still of the opinion that you need to put forth the effort to do that from the start of games to the end of games during the regular season if you're going to win a title. I don't think the Suns can just try to step up on D once the playoffs start. We will see.

[Findog]

:rolleyes

How original.

Any more cliches?

.

Who cares if it's "cliched" or not "original" analysis? It's true and you can't refute it. Nash breaks down every May. I watched it happen four straight years in Dallas and the last two in Phoenix. If I need a guard to rack up 20 points and 11 assists in February against Atlanta, give me Nash. If I want to win a title, give me a guy who can play both ways and not break down in the playoffs.


Nevermind...if you think that Dallas ever had an inside presence like Amare Stoudemire, then your posts aren't even worth reading.

Where did I say Dallas had an inside presence comparable to Amare Stoudamire. Don't you mean to say that my posts are beyond your reading comprehension skills?

[Findog]

Amare is more than just one more guy in the rotation. That is as dumb as saying Wade is just part of the Heat's rotation.

I didn't say Amare was just one guy in the rotation. My point was that Phoenix lost in 6 games to Dallas with basically a 6-man rotation without Bell and Stoudamire. Simply being able to field a regular 8-man rotation will help them in their quest for a title more than anything else.

[JamStone]

How does a team commit 25 turnovers and still score 100 points???

What kind of defense causes 25 turnovers and still allows 100 points???

[Xylus]

How does a team commit 25 turnovers and still score 100 points???

What kind of defense causes 25 turnovers and still allows 100 points???
Is this sarcastic, or do you really not know? Ron said it in his very first post, for Christ's sake.

Golden State took 85 shots, which is a result of the fast pace played by both teams. The faster you play, the more shots you get in a game. So even if the Warriors had shot only 40% from the field, they still probably would have hit 100, or at least 98.

I don't understand why people don't get this: It doesn't matter how many points Suns' opponents score...what matters is the combination of FG%, offensive rebounds allowed, turnovers forced, and point differential--That's defense, not points allowed. The Suns could win 200-130, and you'd still say they didn't play defense. :lol

The Warriors shot 43.5% and committed 25 turnovers...both of these are the products of good defense. A team doesn't normally commit 25 turnovers unless the opposing team is playing good defense.

I realize I'm using only one game as an example. But I could pick out just about any game over the last month and a half as a good example.

[mabber]

Is this sarcastic, or do you really not know? Ron said it in his very first post, for Christ's sake.

Golden State took 85 shots, which is a result of the fast pace played by both teams. The faster you play, the more shots you get in a game. So even if the Warriors had shot only 40% from the field, they still probably would have hit 100, or at least 98.

I don't understand why people don't get this: It doesn't matter how many points Suns' opponents score...what matters is the combination of FG%, offensive rebounds allowed, turnovers forced, and point differential--That's defense, not points allowed. The Suns could win 200-130, and you'd still say they didn't play defense. :lol

The Warriors shot 43.5% and committed 25 turnovers...both of these are the products of good defense. A team doesn't normally commit 25 turnovers unless the opposing team is playing good defense.

I realize I'm using only one game as an example. But I could pick out just about any game over the last month and a half as a good example.

Not only does D'Antoni have his players sold on that style of play, he's apparently got the fans sold on it as well. Hell, there's a first time for everything but until a team that plays that way wins the title I won't think it's the best way to go about trying to win it. It's damn fun to watch though from a fan's perspective.

[BradLohaus]

Some Suns defensive rankings:

Opponents FG%: 10th (tied with SA, yikes)
Point differential: 2nd (SA 1st)
Turnovers forced per game: 11th (Spurs 22nd)
Turnover differential per game: 10th, Spurs 13th (this stat explains why NY can rebound so well and still be so bad, along with having Jamal Crawford and Starbury jacking shots left and right. They are dead last here by a full TO per game, which is alot.)
Off Reb%: 30th (last, Spurs are 28th)
Def Reb%: 18th (Spurs are 2nd, Rockets 1st)
Overall Reb%: 24th (Spurs are 7th)

The Suns do rank pretty well in the stats Xylus mentioned. Even the 18th in defensive rebounding % was better than I thought they'd be. The bottom 4 in offensive reb. % looks like this:
27) Miami: .247
28) SA: .245
29) Tor: .237
30) Phx: .209

The dropoff between the Suns and the rest of the league is pretty big. Every team has at least one weakness, and it's pretty obvious what the Suns' is. It's going to take very hot shooting to overcome 18th in def. reb and last in off. reb when you only play the elite teams on the post season. Of course, the Spurs have statistical weaknesses ourselves. I don't know how we're 2nd in defensive rebounding and 3rd to last in offensive rebounding. The Spurs must improve from 10th in Opp FG%, that's our stat! We could force some more turnovers as well.

[BradLohaus]

I agree with Brad that rebounding is our team's greatest weakness. I've been saying for awhile that the Suns need to pick up a strong rebounder soon. I'd love to have David Lee, but I'm afraid that acquiring him is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I couldn't agree more. David Lee would be a fantastic addition to a contender. The guy just flat out gets rebounds on both ends. Isaiah doesn't start him now that Frye is healthy, but he does play more minutes than Frye. I don't even think Isaiah is dumb enough to part with him on the cheap, but he might be destined to leave NY anyway. He's too good not to start somewhere soon, and the Knicks will probably keep the Curry, Frye, Jeffries frontline together (which is wrong. I'd let Frye go to keep Lee in a heartbeat). If an elite Western Conference team could land him it would be huge.

[Amare_32]

funny how yall constantly talk shit about the Mavs, considering the Suns havent gotten any farther than the Mavs recently. 1 year, the Suns beat the Mavs, then got owned by the Spurs. then last year, the Mavs beat the Suns, and got to the finals, but unfortunately lost. and now this year, the Mavs are clearly the better team so far. you guys are total fucking morons. wait until the playoffs to talk shit.

I am simply responding to your post about the Suns being 0-5 vs Mavs,Spurs,Jazz. Last year the Heat were horrible vs other elite teams. They went on to beat the Nets,Pistons and Mavs in the playoffs. Teams that had thier number in the regular season. Don't forget the Suns still play the Mavs 2 more times plus the Jazz and Spurs. My point is don't put much into what teams the Suns beat or don't beat in the regular season. The only thing that matters is how many wins they collect.
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[mabber]

I am simply responding to your post about the Suns being 0-5 vs Mavs,Spurs,Jazz. Last year the Heat were horrible vs other elite teams. They went on to beat the Nets,Pistons and Mavs in the playoffs. Teams that had thier number in the regular season. Don't forget the Suns still play the Mavs 2 more times plus the Jazz and Spurs. My point is don't put much into what teams the Suns beat or don't beat in the regular season. The only thing that matters is how many wins they collect.

I agree with this and actually think the Suns have a great chance to get the best record this season. My issue is that their style of play is built for the regular season and not the playoffs. I wouldn't care if the Suns won most of their regular season games vs. the other elite teams cuz it won't translate to the playoffs unless they learn to play better halfcourt defense and rebound better. That's just my opinion though. I know you've heard this a hundred times but Mav fans have experienced it and realize that your style of play doesn't usually work against the top teams in the playoffs. Avery Johnson understands this and has drastically changed the way the Mavs play now. Hopefully, they're finally ready to win a title this season but we'll see.

On a side note, I think it would be awesome if the Suns won the title by playing the way they do (if the Mavs don't win). It would show that it can be done that way and more teams would try that style. It would make for a more entertaining league...but I just don't see it happening.

[RonMexico]

The Suns do rank pretty well in the stats Xylus mentioned. Even the 18th in defensive rebounding % was better than I thought they'd be. The bottom 4 in offensive reb. % looks like this:
27) Miami: .247
28) SA: .245
29) Tor: .237
30) Phx: .209

The dropoff between the Suns and the rest of the league is pretty big. Every team has at least one weakness, and it's pretty obvious what the Suns' is. It's going to take very hot shooting to overcome 18th in def. reb and last in off. reb when you only play the elite teams on the post season. Of course, the Spurs have statistical weaknesses ourselves. I don't know how we're 2nd in defensive rebounding and 3rd to last in offensive rebounding. The Spurs must improve from 10th in Opp FG%, that's our stat! We could force some more turnovers as well.

Brad, one of my theories is that both the Suns and Spurs shoot a high percentage - Spurs at about 48% and Suns flirting with 50% almost all season. Also, the Suns and Spurs are both tops in 3FG%, which means they don't get a lot of those long offensive rebounds induced by 3pt misses.

The reason the Suns drop off even more is that the guards and even small forwards play way out on the perimeter, leaving only about 2 Suns players crashing the offensive boards. Against teams that don't fast break a lot, the Suns have poor offensive rebounding numbers, but against the teams that do fast break a lot (aka release their guards and forwards), the Suns can pick up a fair amount of offensive boards. I'll admit that I was really surprised by the rebounding numbers tonight against the Sonics: despite giving up 21 rebounds to Nick Collison (who had the best game I've ever seen him play, including college), the Suns only lost the rebounding battle 45-42 overall and I thought they had been dominated on the glass by the looks of the game.

Either way, I'm glad you looked up the defensive stats and finally found some numbers to back up what Xylus and I have been saying for a few weeks now. I still think the Suns can win in the playoffs losing the rebounding battle by 3 per game. It's when they don't fight for boards inside at all and lose by 10+ that they get into trouble.

[BradLohaus]

Either way, I'm glad you looked up the defensive stats and finally found some numbers to back up what Xylus and I have been saying for a few weeks now. I still think the Suns can win in the playoffs losing the rebounding battle by 3 per game. It's when they don't fight for boards inside at all and lose by 10+ that they get into trouble.

I'm starting to open up to the possibility of a team winning the title despite losing the rebounding battle. Even if it's never happened in NBA history, I suppose it has to happen at some point, especially if this league wide move to smaller ball is actually a generational shift in style and not just a fad. I think the influx of foreign players is helping to cement the shift. I have to admit that if someone does win it all with a -RebDiff it will be someone with the Suns offensive stats: #1 in scoring by 3 ppg, #1 in fg% at almost 50%, 40% on 3s and 80% at the line. Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

[mabber]

I'm starting to open up to the possibility of a team winning the title despite losing the rebounding battle. Even if it's never happened in NBA history, I suppose it has to happen at some point, especially if this league wide move to smaller ball is actually a generational shift in style and not just a fad. I think the influx of foreign players is helping to cement the shift. I have to admit that if someone does win it all with a -RebDiff it will be someone with the Suns offensive stats: #1 in scoring by 3 ppg, #1 in fg% at almost 50%, 40% on 3s and 80% at the line. Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

There's a first time for everything so it could happen and the Suns would be the prime candidate. I think the Suns will have to be the #1 seed for it to happen this season. I think it would be tough for them to go through both the Spurs & Mavs and that's what they'd probably have to do with the #2 or #3 seed.

That's a good point about how the influx of foreign players is probably helping with the shift to small ball. I really hadn't thought of that before.

[fitzgerald]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

[mabber]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

Yeah, they've (Sun's fans) have heard all this before. They're just hoping that the overall change in style of play (more to small ball) will yield a nba champion soon. I don't think it's going to happen but I've been wrong more times than I'd care to admit about things :lol

I don't see the Mavs being stopped this season unless injuries get them. I had always targeted this season for them to finally win a championship. I thought they over-achieved a bit last year. I expected the Spurs to come out of the west last season.

[BradLohaus]

That's a good point about how the influx of foreign players is probably helping with the shift to small ball. I really hadn't thought of that before.

Also the recent rule changes that limit physical play in an attempt to improve scoring.

[RonMexico]

Will Nash have enough in the tank for the stretch run? That might be just as important as these rebounding numbers. He'll be 33 in a month.

That's the key. Either Banks or Barbosa needs to step up and take over as a quality backup PG for around 10+ mins per game to give Nash some rest or the Suns have to pick-up someone who will before the deadline. They only need to do this in the regular season for the most part, so Nash won't have to expend to much energy in late March/April.

I have a feeling that the bench of James Jones and Jalen Rose will be key in any kind of stretch/playoff run, and Diaw/Rose can both run "point forward" if necessary for any periods of time. The maturation of Amare's game - i.e. hitting the 15 ft jumper consistently and developing a few more "go-to" halfcourt post-up moves and consistency from Marion in the playoffs also are key (if he had played better in the 2005 WCF, I don't think Suns would have lost in 5 games... Bowen held him to 7.8 PPG in that series). I believe that role players like Bell and Kurt Thomas will prove valuable in the playoffs, as well.

I'm only concerned about the rebounding when it goes to -10 or more for the Suns because that's when they lose/struggle in the playoffs. The better they rebound, the less of a chance they have to go 6/7 games in the first round, which will help everyone's conditioning.

With respect to Nash, though - this is the first summer in about 3-4 years in which he has not played some kind of competitive sport (i.e. rec soccer leagues or for the Canadian National B-ball Team). Instead, he focused solely on conditioning and treatment of his back issues. He has only been out 2 games this year due to a sprained ankle, and that's reassuring since it isn't back spasms or a hamstring injury like in previous years. I still think that if anyone can run the offense while he is out so he can average no more than 32/33 MPG this year, then he should have it in him for 38+ per night in the playoffs.

[RonMexico]

Phoenix still allows over 100 points per game. Check San Antonio and Dallas. They don't. Check most of the teams in first place in their division. Phoenix is the only team that is in first while allowing so many points. Phoenix can try it just like all other past teams have tried. Good luck.

I'm still waiting for a Mavs fan to explain how the Mavs are a "great" defensive team, and the Suns are a "bad" defensive team considering these facts. Of course, stats don't matter on this board...

Dallas: OPP FG% 45.06
Phoenix: OPP FG% 45.07
San Antonio: OPP FG% 45.08

Dallas: OPP 3POINT% 33
Phoenix: OPP 3POINT% 32
San Antonio: OPP 3POINT% 34

Dallas forced turnovers: 14.1
Phoenix forced turnovers: 15.3
San Antonio forced turnovers: 14.1

The Suns may give up points, but they're second in point differential, and also have many more possessions per game, which allow for more shots and more scoring on both sides of the ball. If you adjust the defensive scoring averages based on # of possessions for all 3 teams, I'm pretty sure the three of them would be pretty close since they allow almost identical OPP FG%.

[mabber]

That's the key. Either Banks or Barbosa needs to step up and take over as a quality backup PG for around 10+ mins per game to give Nash some rest or the Suns have to pick-up someone who will before the deadline. They only need to do this in the regular season for the most part, so Nash won't have to expend to much energy in late March/April.

I have a feeling that the bench of James Jones and Jalen Rose will be key in any kind of stretch/playoff run, and Diaw/Rose can both run "point forward" if necessary for any periods of time. The maturation of Amare's game - i.e. hitting the 15 ft jumper consistently and developing a few more "go-to" halfcourt post-up moves and consistency from Marion in the playoffs also are key (if he had played better in the 2005 WCF, I don't think Suns would have lost in 5 games... Bowen held him to 7.8 PPG in that series). I believe that role players like Bell and Kurt Thomas will prove valuable in the playoffs, as well.

I'm only concerned about the rebounding when it goes to -10 or more for the Suns because that's when they lose/struggle in the playoffs. The better they rebound, the less of a chance they have to go 6/7 games in the first round, which will help everyone's conditioning.

With respect to Nash, though - this is the first summer in about 3-4 years in which he has not played some kind of competitive sport (i.e. rec soccer leagues or for the Canadian National B-ball Team). Instead, he focused solely on conditioning and treatment of his back issues. He has only been out 2 games this year due to a sprained ankle, and that's reassuring since it isn't back spasms or a hamstring injury like in previous years. I still think that if anyone can run the offense while he is out so he can average no more than 32/33 MPG this year, then he should have it in him for 38+ per night in the playoffs.

I'm blown away that he's shooting over 50% on 3 pointers.

[mabber]

I'm still waiting for a Mavs fan to explain how the Mavs are a "great" defensive team, and the Suns are a "bad" defensive team considering these facts. Of course, stats don't matter on this board...

Dallas: OPP FG% 45.06
Phoenix: OPP FG% 45.07
San Antonio: OPP FG% 45.08

Dallas: OPP 3POINT% 33
Phoenix: OPP 3POINT% 32
San Antonio: OPP 3POINT% 34

Dallas forced turnovers: 14.1
Phoenix forced turnovers: 15.3
San Antonio forced turnovers: 14.1

The Suns may give up points, but they're second in point differential, and also have many more possessions per game, which allow for more shots and more scoring on both sides of the ball. If you adjust the defensive scoring averages based on # of possessions for all 3 teams, I'm pretty sure the three of them would be pretty close since they allow almost identical OPP FG%.

I never said the Mavs were a "great" defensive team but I do think they are superior to the Suns and equal to the Spurs and I don't need stats to see that. The Mavs are an average at best 1st half defensive team and a really good 2nd half defensive team. They really turn up the defensive pressure as the game progresses. It's very common for them to give up around 50pts in the first half and only 35-40 pts in the 2nd half (although the last night's game was not that way).

[BradLohaus]

I think we may have seen the end of the era of dominant defensive teams. I hate to see it as a Spurs fan, but with the roster changes SA and Detroit have gone through lately, some age issues, and the general smaller, faster, less physical changes the NBA is going through, there are alot of reasons to think a new era is here in the NBA.

I thought the Suns were a bad defensive team until I looked at the numbers. I'd put them at average now (opp. FG% is the significant defensive stat. The Spurs won 3 titles because of this stat, and now Phx is equal to the Mavs and Spurs). The Suns are bad at rebounding, not defense. And they're not as bad at def. rebounding as they are at off. rebounding.

Maybe this depends on what people consider "being good at defense" is. I'd say the best defensive team is the team that is toughest to score on. Opp. ppg. is not all that important, I think (Ron I think you've shown that). It comes down to opp. FG% and DefReb%. The Suns are 10th and 18th or so in those 2 categories. I think the stats say that Phx is an average defensive team, but a bad rebounding one.

[TheMulvany]

First of all, the Mavs are 2-0 vs the Suns this year, so Suns fans have no room to question how good the Mavs are. Win a game then talk. You've lost 4 straight against the Mavs going back to last year's playoffs, by the way.

Secondly, the Suns got really fat off the east. Eventually you'll have to play some good teams in the West (not Portland and Seattle every game, either). And when you do, you'll continue on that 0-5 record you've got against the best in the West. Look at that record vs the East and vs the West. It sucks that you only get to play those EC teams twice each.

And you're actually trying to claim the Suns are a better defensive team than the Mavs? Are you kidding me? The Suns are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They don't force turnovers or block shots, either. They also don't get to the freethrow line. This all adds up to one simple fact: Their opponents get a LOT more shots per game. The Suns have to shoot 50% if they want any shot at winning the game. They can't do that 4 times vs the Mavs or Spurs in the playoffs, and that's why they will never get past them.

The Suns cannot win a game when they shoot poorly against a good team. That's all there is to it. Even when they do shoot well there's no guarantee they'll win.

One of the reasons the Suns defensive numbers have gone up is because they've played the East for the last month. The East sucks. Most of the top offensive teams are in the West.

It's not all about defensive FG%. The Spus aren't doing well in that area and they're a MUCH better defensive team than the Suns are. The Spus and Mavs both get stops when they have to, and they rebound the ball. The Suns do neither.

The only way the Suns can get to the finals is if they somehow avoid the Spurs and Mavs in the playoffs, which is impossible. The Jazz shoot the ball for such a high percentage and are such a good rebounding team that I don't think the Suns would have a prayer against them, either.

To sum it up: The Suns are dead in the playoffs.

[Amare_32]

First of all, the Mavs are 2-0 vs the Suns this year, so Suns fans have no room to question how good the Mavs are. Win a game then talk. You've lost 4 straight against the Mavs going back to last year's playoffs, by the way.

Secondly, the Suns got really fat off the east. Eventually you'll have to play some good teams in the West (not Portland and Seattle every game, either). And when you do, you'll continue on that 0-5 record you've got against the best in the West. Look at that record vs the East and vs the West. It sucks that you only get to play those EC teams twice each.

And you're actually trying to claim the Suns are a better defensive team than the Mavs? Are you kidding me? The Suns are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They don't force turnovers or block shots, either. They also don't get to the freethrow line. This all adds up to one simple fact: Their opponents get a LOT more shots per game. The Suns have to shoot 50% if they want any shot at winning the game. They can't do that 4 times vs the Mavs or Spurs in the playoffs, and that's why they will never get past them.

The Suns cannot win a game when they shoot poorly against a good team. That's all there is to it. Even when they do shoot well there's no guarantee they'll win.

One of the reasons the Suns defensive numbers have gone up is because they've played the East for the last month. The East sucks. Most of the top offensive teams are in the West.

It's not all about defensive FG%. The Spus aren't doing well in that area and they're a MUCH better defensive team than the Suns are. The Spus and Mavs both get stops when they have to, and they rebound the ball. The Suns do neither.

The only way the Suns can get to the finals is if they somehow avoid the Spurs and Mavs in the playoffs, which is impossible. The Jazz shoot the ball for such a high percentage and are such a good rebounding team that I don't think the Suns would have a prayer against them, either.

To sum it up: The Suns are dead in the playoffs.



:blah Let the season run its course the Mavs play the Suns 2 more times. By the way how did it feel to see the Heat hold up the trophy in Dallas?
________
How to roll blunts (http://howtorollablunt.net/)

[dirk4mvp]

:blah Let the season run its course the Mavs play the Suns 2 more times. By the way how did it feel to see the Heat hold up the trophy in Dallas?


Best argument Sun fan has to offer? :lol

[Amare_32]

[

Secondly, the Suns got really fat off the east. Eventually you'll have to play some good teams in the West (not Portland and Seattle every game, either). And when you do, you'll continue on that 0-5 record you've got against the best in the West. Look at that record vs the East and vs the West. It sucks that you only get to play those EC teams twice each.]

The Mavs also will get fat on beating up on the Eastern Conference. You can't make assumptions based on the regular season. The Heat proved it last year. They could not beat one of the elite teams to save thier lives. If we followed the logic of some Mavs fans then the Mavs should have won the Finals since they swept the Heat last year in the regular season. Lastly all the expections are on the Mavs to win it all ths year. The Spurs and the Suns are not even the favorites to win the West this year. It wil be interesting to see how the Mavs handle those expectations because anything short of a trip to the Finals will be a failed season.
________
AmadorC (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/AmadorC)

[RonMexico]

They don't force turnovers or block shots, either.

Suns force 15 turnovers per game, while the Mavs only force 14.

Suns block 5.03 shots per game while the Mavs block 5.33 per game.

The rest of your post is just fluff - the meat of how knowledgeable you are is right there.

[Shank]

Stats are bullshit and don't tell the whole story.

Wins/losses is how a team is measured.

[da_suns_fan__]

All this STUPID statistical analysis is worthless.

All that matters is if the Suns could beat San Antonio or Dallas in a series.

If they have HCA, I say definately yes. If not, its going to be a lot harder.

[stretch]

Fuck the Suns.

[ponky]

All this STUPID statistical analysis is worthless.

All that matters is if the Suns could beat San Antonio or Dallas in a series.

If they have HCA, I say definately yes. If not, its going to be a lot harder.


You're pretty much right. I like to check out stats too as a soft predictor but they don't always tell the whole story, they're only valuable to a certain point. Bigtime, established Vegas bookies hire crazy statisticians to figure out odds and look how wrong they were about last year's finals. Nobody can predict stuff like momentum, choking, injuries, officiating, clutch shots, etc.

[BradLohaus]

Stats are bullshit and don't tell the whole story.

Wins/losses is how a team is measured.

Yeah, stats are bullshit and it's all about wins and losses. Too bad somebody can't figure out a way to explain why some teams have more wins than others. Then we'd have something to talk about.

[mavsfan1000]

Stats are bullshit and don't tell the whole story.

Wins/losses is how a team is measured.
In that case the suns are the second best team and barely behind Dallas.

[RonMexico]

In that case the suns are the second best team and barely behind Dallas.

Exactly.

[Shank]

Yeah, stats are bullshit and it's all about wins and losses. Too bad somebody can't figure out a way to explain why some teams have more wins than others. Then we'd have something to talk about.

I can. One team outscores their opponent and wins. If they don't, they lose.

[RonMexico]

I wonder if TNT comes and reads our posts and then puts them on the air... Doug Collins and Kevin Harlan basically said the exact same things we've been saying on here the past few days... with the exact same stats. They compared the Suns numbers to the Spurs and Mavs in terms of OPP FG% etc. and then also said that the number of points they give up doesn't matter. They also said the Suns need to up the rebounding intensity if they want to go all the way.

[dirk4mvp]

I'll just use this thread to say........the Suns are raping the so called best team in the east.

[Xylus]

The Suns are making the Cavs look like the Bobcats right now... Statistically, the Suns were destroying the Cavs in every possible category (even total rebounds). Phoenix played one of the best 2nd quarters I've ever seen by a basketball team. They looked like a single entity out there, making all their shots, and causing the Cavs a lot of problems on both ends.

Suns are playing their best offensive and defensive game of the season so far tonight.

[dirk4mvp]

Nash = 2 points and 19 assists. Nashty.

[Xylus]

Nash has 20 assists in the middle of the 3rd quarter.

[mavsfan1000]

Games like this definitely put worry in me that the mavs are not the best team. The spurs have yet to show this but the suns have.

[ponky]

I wonder if TNT comes and reads our posts and then puts them on the air... Doug Collins and Kevin Harlan basically said the exact same things we've been saying on here the past few days... with the exact same stats. They compared the Suns numbers to the Spurs and Mavs in terms of OPP FG% etc. and then also said that the number of points they give up doesn't matter. They also said the Suns need to up the rebounding intensity if they want to go all the way.


Yeah i heard all that, blah blah blah. What would have been more interesting is if motormouth Doug Collins had put his very thorough analytical skills to better use and discussed why the Suns seem to be 0-5 against the Jazz, Spurs and Mavericks. I didn't hear Harlan say much about the subject, just Doug as usual. Barkley put it all into a little better perspective, nice to see that he doesn't completely homer on *his* team.

[ponky]

Games like this definitely put worry in me that the mavs are not the best team. The spurs have yet to show this but the suns have.


Uh, why? Did you even watch the game? The Cavs played basically no D, decided to take stupid jumpers they couldn't make after the first quarter and committed a gazillion turnovers that the speedy Suns converted. The Cavs can't run with the Suns, the Mavericks can do that and more...they can change it up a bit and tweak their game in-game, no need to worry. We'll talk when the Suns beat the Spurs or Mavs...or even the Jazz.

[atxrocker]

mavs ain't winnin shit, chokers aren't capable.

[mavsfan1000]

mavs ain't winnin shit, chokers aren't capable.
3 words for you. Horry for 3! Haha love that shit. Your team is up there with the biggest choke jobs.

[atxrocker]

3 words for you. Horry for 3! Haha love that shit. Your team is up there with the biggest choke jobs.


and how many more rings you bitches got? :king

[ponky]

and how many more rings you bitches got? :king

poor Kings fans, all downhill since, HORRY FOR 3!!! too bad you've been reduced to dissing other teams since there's nothing to talk about when it comes to your ragtag band of losers

[Greg Oden]

mavs ain't winnin shit, chokers aren't capable.


I'm so sorry, poort queens fan. i know your vagina ached good and long when Horry hit that shot. i was a wee las myself, but was able to see your team get nastied on. perhaps if it was me in this black and purple jersey, i would've blocked it........or even secured the rebound like real men do.

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/nba/2002/0526/photo/nbagallery6.jpg

[mabber]

The Suns are making the Cavs look like the Bobcats right now... Statistically, the Suns were destroying the Cavs in every possible category (even total rebounds). Phoenix played one of the best 2nd quarters I've ever seen by a basketball team. They looked like a single entity out there, making all their shots, and causing the Cavs a lot of problems on both ends.

Suns are playing their best offensive and defensive game of the season so far tonight.

The Suns are easily the toughest team for the teams (eastern conference) that only play them 2 times per year to play against. Until you learn how to slow down that offense (like Dallas & San Antonio has) they are a nightmare to play against. I only watched the 1st half as I got bored watching the Cavs running around on D with their heads up their collective asses.

[Amare_32]

Yeah i heard all that, blah blah blah. What would have been more interesting is if motormouth Doug Collins had put his very thorough analytical skills to better use and discussed why the Suns seem to be 0-5 against the Jazz, Spurs and Mavericks. I didn't hear Harlan say much about the subject, just Doug as usual. Barkley put it all into a little better perspective, nice to see that he doesn't completely homer on *his* team.


Since you seem to be stuck on that here it is. The Heat were

0-2 vs Suns
0-2 vs Mavs
0-2 vs Spurs
0-2 vs Nuggets
1-3 vs Pistons
1-3 vs Nets

This was in the 05-06 season. Remind me again who won the title last year.
________
Volcano vaporizer reviews (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[RonMexico]

Yeah i heard all that, blah blah blah. What would have been more interesting is if motormouth Doug Collins had put his very thorough analytical skills to better use and discussed why the Suns seem to be 0-5 against the Jazz, Spurs and Mavericks. I didn't hear Harlan say much about the subject, just Doug as usual. Barkley put it all into a little better perspective, nice to see that he doesn't completely homer on *his* team.

Barkley has lost his charm... I liked him two years ago when he made the same arguments (no defense/rebounding... or as you would say "blah, blah, blah") about the Suns against SA in 2005. But something has happened in the past year where he's become less funny, talks too much (dominates the on-screen time), and takes too much offense when someone disagrees with him. It's disappointing because I feel like he's forgotten what he was like as a player when he tries to throw criticism around... I think he's started taking himself too seriously, which is in stark contrast to the guy I watched since 1992 and met 3 different times in Phoenix.

For example, last year, he and Magic both called out Raja Bell for coming back in Game 4 against the Mavs, saying he should have "left a roster spot open for someone who is healthy." I couldn't believe that because Barkley and Raja are so similar in temperment (i.e. ultra-competitive, like to trash talk on the court, and both have gotten in on-court scuffles with known "rivals"), and Charles knows that if he were hurt in the WCF, down 2-1, and trying to give his teammates an emotional lift to tie the series, he wouldn't be on the bench. Medically, Bell wasn't going to hurt the calf anymore because what he needed most was rest, but he'd have a lot of time to rest in the off-season, so he might as well play. It's players like that who should receive praise and players like Penny Hardaway who chooses to "deactivate" himself for the playoffs with the Suns because his knee has "slight pain" who should be criticized for being wimps and quitting on their teammates. To compound the situation further, Bell makes a tongue-in-cheek joke during his halftime interview with Craig Sager that he really wanted to come out and play hard because he heard Magic and Charles giving him a hard time on the pregame show. Barkley just flips out and gets so upset that someone would disagree with him. I'd like to see the Barkley of old who could admit when he was wrong and come back with a witty remark rather than acting like (to bring in another thread) Donald Trump/Rosie O'Donnell with the whining.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the most impressive analyst last year on TNT was Kobe during the playoffs - he was incredibly articulate, had spot-on analysis, and was very self-assured in front of the camera (although no one has hogged the spotlight more than him, so that last one is a given). I hate Kobe with a passion (esp. right after the Suns-Lakers series last year), but I had to give it to him that he was fair, un-biased, and really insightful.

In other words, Magic still sucks, Ernie Johnson is the most patient man in the world, Reggie Miller is an obnoxious Pacer homer and whiner, and Kenny is still funny (Gone Fishin' is great).

[Doug Collins]

which is in stark contrast to the guy I watched since 1992 and met 3 different times in Phoenix.


You must be a pretty big deal... :drunk :downspin: :smokin

[Xylus]

Please, Barkley has to be one of the worst basketball commentators on television, second only to Skip Bayless.

[ponky]

Since you seem to be stuck on that here it is. The Heat were

0-2 vs Suns
0-2 vs Mavs
0-2 vs Spurs
0-2 vs Nuggets
1-3 vs Pistons
1-3 vs Nets

This was in the 05-06 season. Remind me again who won the title last year.


If you notice, I did not mention anything about the how the Suns would fare in the playoffs. For very different reasons other than their regular season record, I don't think the Suns will win a championship with their style of play. Try to keep up buddy, don't take stuff from one argument and necessarily assume it applies to another. Playoffs and regular season are different beasts.

[ponky]

Barkley has lost his charm... I liked him two years ago when he made the same arguments (no defense/rebounding... or as you would say "blah, blah, blah") about the Suns against SA in 2005. But something has happened in the past year where he's become less funny, talks too much (dominates the on-screen time), and takes too much offense when someone disagrees with him. It's disappointing because I feel like he's forgotten what he was like as a player when he tries to throw criticism around... I think he's started taking himself too seriously, which is in stark contrast to the guy I watched since 1992 and met 3 different times in Phoenix.

For example, last year, he and Magic both called out Raja Bell for coming back in Game 4 against the Mavs, saying he should have "left a roster spot open for someone who is healthy." I couldn't believe that because Barkley and Raja are so similar in temperment (i.e. ultra-competitive, like to trash talk on the court, and both have gotten in on-court scuffles with known "rivals"), and Charles knows that if he were hurt in the WCF, down 2-1, and trying to give his teammates an emotional lift to tie the series, he wouldn't be on the bench. Medically, Bell wasn't going to hurt the calf anymore because what he needed most was rest, but he'd have a lot of time to rest in the off-season, so he might as well play. It's players like that who should receive praise and players like Penny Hardaway who chooses to "deactivate" himself for the playoffs with the Suns because his knee has "slight pain" who should be criticized for being wimps and quitting on their teammates. To compound the situation further, Bell makes a tongue-in-cheek joke during his halftime interview with Craig Sager that he really wanted to come out and play hard because he heard Magic and Charles giving him a hard time on the pregame show. Barkley just flips out and gets so upset that someone would disagree with him. I'd like to see the Barkley of old who could admit when he was wrong and come back with a witty remark rather than acting like (to bring in another thread) Donald Trump/Rosie O'Donnell with the whining.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the most impressive analyst last year on TNT was Kobe during the playoffs - he was incredibly articulate, had spot-on analysis, and was very self-assured in front of the camera (although no one has hogged the spotlight more than him, so that last one is a given). I hate Kobe with a passion (esp. right after the Suns-Lakers series last year), but I had to give it to him that he was fair, un-biased, and really insightful.

In other words, Magic still sucks, Ernie Johnson is the most patient man in the world, Reggie Miller is an obnoxious Pacer homer and whiner, and Kenny is still funny (Gone Fishin' is great).

ha, i agree with you about barkley but he's still ok for some humor every once in awhile...i do remember kobe's tnt appearance and it was very good...as for magic, i think he's pretty good when compared to kenny/barkley who just go apeshit when someone disagrees with their take

[Doug Collins]

Please, Barkley has to be one of the worst basketball commentators on television, second only to Skip Bayless.

Skip Bayless makes me want to kill myself.

[RonMexico]

You must be a pretty big deal... :drunk :downspin: :smokin

I also had dinner with the current Secretary of Defense. :elephant

[TDMVPDPOY]

suns should get no respect when they havnt done shit to earn it

[RonMexico]

suns should get no respect when they havnt done shit to earn it

You continue to rack up nuggets of knowledge. I'm wondering how many of those 5,000 posts of yours actually have something intelligent to say. Nash has won 2 MVPs, but gets no respect from the officials - that's doing something I think...

[Celtic Pride]

You continue to rack up nuggets of knowledge. I'm wondering how many of those 5,000 posts of yours actually have something intelligent to say. Nash has won 2 MVPs, but gets no respect from the officials - that's doing something I think...


Don't use the Nash and 2 MVP awards for the Regular Season. Nash is the only 2 time MVP to not have won a Championship. As for no respect from the officials, he gets plenty on the Offensive end. It's his defense that hasn't changed since he has been in the NBA. Has he ever made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Team All-Defensive? Nash has more All-Stars on his team than any other except for maybe Duncan, so I don't even know how he won 2 MVP in a row. The Suns are a good offensive team, but not a good defensive team. The Suns have to play defense against the top teams and beat them before they can be considered a good defensive team.

[TDMVPDPOY]

You continue to rack up nuggets of knowledge. I'm wondering how many of those 5,000 posts of yours actually have something intelligent to say. Nash has won 2 MVPs, but gets no respect from the officials - that's doing something I think...

im talkin the suns as a team, not steve nash in particular as an individual

[RonMexico]

Don't use the Nash and 2 MVP awards for the Regular Season. Nash is the only 2 time MVP to not have won a Championship. As for no respect from the officials, he gets plenty on the Offensive end. It's his defense that hasn't changed since he has been in the NBA. Has he ever made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Team All-Defensive? Nash has more All-Stars on his team than any other except for maybe Duncan, so I don't even know how he won 2 MVP in a row. The Suns are a good offensive team, but not a good defensive team. The Suns have to play defense against the top teams and beat them before they can be considered a good defensive team.

#1 - your team sucks dick right now. #2 - the only defensive Celts teams were the ones Russell was on. How many All-Def teams did Bird make? #3 - He gets no respect on the offensive end - he shoots only 3.5 FTs per game - the lowest average ever by an MVP winner. (Those stats come from SI, which ran a "Scoreboard" numbers check on it.)... I guess Paul Peirce should have won MVP the past two years with his stellar D.

[RonMexico]

im talkin the suns as a team, not steve nash in particular as an individual

You're just being a hater, that's all. I'd really like to see what you were like before 1999, when the Spurs kept losing to the Suns in the playoffs.

[Celtic Pride]

#1 - your team sucks dick right now. #2 - the only defensive Celts teams were the ones Russell was on. How many All-Def teams did Bird make? #3 - He gets no respect on the offensive end - he shoots only 3.5 FTs per game - the lowest average ever by an MVP winner. (Those stats come from SI, which ran a "Scoreboard" numbers check on it.)... I guess Paul Peirce should have won MVP the past two years with his stellar D.


Bird 3 time 2nd team All-Defensive

Celtics have had players make an All-Defensive team 1st or 2nd 18 years since the league started.

Phoenix has had a player make an All-Defensive team 1st or 2nd 14 years since the league started.

Yes my team sucks right now, but that doesn't change the reason why your team can't play D against the top teams does it?

Check this URL if you want education.
http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveteams.html

[ponky]

RonMexico, why are you so bitchy when it comes to your little precious Suns? You get so uptight just because the Mavs and Spurs are more concerned with our own teams and our own rivalry that we won't throw you a bone. Don't get all uptight...you still have the Lakers.

[RonMexico]

RonMexico, why are you so bitchy when it comes to your little precious Suns? You get so uptight just because the Mavs and Spurs are more concerned with our own teams and our own rivalry that we won't throw you a bone. Don't get all uptight...you still have the Lakers.

Again - don't know what you're talking about... Mavs aren't the "class of the NBA" and I think the Suns-Mavs rivalry will out-do the Spurs-Mavs one if the Spurs keep being such pussies this year. I really just don't like the Mavs at all from management (Cuban) on down (Caveman), but I hate people whose teams suck and know nothing about basketball (like Celtic Pride) or extreme haters who know nothing about the Suns (like TIMVPDPOY) acting like their shit is gospel around here.

At least you, ponky, know what you're talking about, but you still like to rip on me personally for some reason. I just retaliate when people don't post anything with intelligence or facts to back up their statements. And someone east of Tucson has to stand up for the Suns, since when I arrived here in 2002, people thought Phoenix was a town of under 1 million people, and we rode horses and played basketball with tumbleweeds.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who likes to spread my opinion about the Suns/Spurs/Mavs/NBA since I routinely create threads on here that grow to 4+ pages, so there have to be some people out there to help out...

[mabber]

Again - don't know what you're talking about... Mavs aren't the "class of the NBA" and I think the Suns-Mavs rivalry will out-do the Spurs-Mavs one if the Spurs keep being such pussies this year. I really just don't like the Mavs at all from management (Cuban) on down (Caveman), but I hate people whose teams suck and know nothing about basketball (like Celtic Pride) or extreme haters who know nothing about the Suns (like TIMVPDPOY) acting like their shit is gospel around here.

At least you, ponky, know what you're talking about, but you still like to rip on me personally for some reason. I just retaliate when people don't post anything with intelligence or facts to back up their statements. And someone east of Tucson has to stand up for the Suns, since when I arrived here in 2002, people thought Phoenix was a town of under 1 million people, and we rode horses and played basketball with tumbleweeds.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who likes to spread my opinion about the Suns/Spurs/Mavs/NBA since I routinely create threads on here that grow to 4+ pages, so there have to be some people out there to help out...

Not likely cuz the Mavs/Spurs is also a Texas thing in addition to a great rivalry between two really good teams. There is some serious hate between the two cities and their fans there. There's really nothing between the Mavs & the Suns other than they're just two really good teams with a brief playoff history (two series). Also, Mav fans still love Nash.

By the way, who's caveman?

[sandeepgm]

When the day ends , you can be sure the last word on all the threads will be RonMexico's. Dude must get the last word on everything!!!

[SoCal Lakeshow]

Suns havn't played anybody. We will get a better idea of how good they are after they start playing better competition.

[dirk4mvp]

When the day ends , you can be sure the last word on all the threads will be RonMexico's. Dude must get the last word on everything!!!


And it's usually nothing but spewing bullshit.

[StylisticS]

Not likely cuz the Mavs/Spurs is also a Texas thing in addition to a great rivalry between two really good teams. There is some serious hate between the two cities and their fans there. There's really nothing between the Mavs & the Suns other than they're just two really good teams with a brief playoff history (two series). Also, Mav fans still love Nash.

By the way, who's caveman?

I agree except the the two cities hating each other. Dallas hates the city of Houston more. :lol j/k. There is no hatred between all cities.

[JMarkJohns]

It's all I'm going to say on the topic, but even Charlie Rosen says the Suns defense has improved. That they appear to play harder and smarter on that end of the floor this year. While it may not have equal success via wins yet, the Suns have been in every game up to arguably the last shot vs. San Antonio and Dallas thus far. Perhaps they'll overcome once, then again and again. Perhaps not. Still, Suns fans hope so and Rosen, known for a bias towards teams with a defensive identity is now saying that Phoenix is a legit Title contender.

[Celtic Pride]

Again - don't know what you're talking about... Mavs aren't the "class of the NBA" and I think the Suns-Mavs rivalry will out-do the Spurs-Mavs one if the Spurs keep being such pussies this year. I really just don't like the Mavs at all from management (Cuban) on down (Caveman), but I hate people whose teams suck and know nothing about basketball (like Celtic Pride) or extreme haters who know nothing about the Suns (like TIMVPDPOY) acting like their shit is gospel around here.

At least you, ponky, know what you're talking about, but you still like to rip on me personally for some reason. I just retaliate when people don't post anything with intelligence or facts to back up their statements. And someone east of Tucson has to stand up for the Suns, since when I arrived here in 2002, people thought Phoenix was a town of under 1 million people, and we rode horses and played basketball with tumbleweeds.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who likes to spread my opinion about the Suns/Spurs/Mavs/NBA since I routinely create threads on here that grow to 4+ pages, so there have to be some people out there to help out...

Ron Mexico, I'm glad you think I know nothing about basketball. I think you know nothing about basketball. And that still doesn't change the fact that until the Suns win against the best teams this year, they are still behind the best teams. I will admit again that my Celtics suck and your Suns don't suck as bad, but I also live in Dallas and my Mavs do not. I don't expect any homer to admit anything bad about their team. Spurs fans still disrespect the Mavs even after the Mavs beat them. Why should Mavs fans be any different towards the Suns? What matters to you is that your upset that nobody takes your team seriously, kinda like the Mavs thought until they changed the way they play.

[da_suns_fan__]

Bird 3 time 2nd team All-Defensive

Celtics have had players make an All-Defensive team 1st or 2nd 18 years since the league started.

Phoenix has had a player make an All-Defensive team 1st or 2nd 14 years since the league started.

Yes my team sucks right now, but that doesn't change the reason why your team can't play D against the top teams does it?

Check this URL if you want education.
http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveteams.html


I assume you meant "hadn't had a player make all-defensive team for 1st or second in 14 years since the league started.


If thats the case, look at your link again. Kidd made first team twice and second team once as a Phoenix Sun.....

What was that about education jackass?

[Celtic Pride]

I assume you meant "hadn't had a player make all-defensive team for 1st or second in 14 years since the league started.


If thats the case, look at your link again. Kidd made first team twice and second team once as a Phoenix Sun.....

What was that about education jackass?

I got your jackass. Read it the way I wrote it and don't assume anything. To Assume make you an Ass. That is the reason SUNS FANS don't get respect, you ruined it for all of them by typing your crap. And I think you need to learn how to comprehend what you read and not take it out of context. I think you owe me an apology for assuming what I was typing. I pointed out the exact facts that you are trying to start crap over. I did not short change the SUNS in my facts. I presented facts for both teams. By the way, the Mavs had 2 All-Defensive by Derek Harper, not Steve Nash.

[Greg Oden]

lol @ you wanting an apology. that's some t pork bullshit right there.


still, good post :toast