The Official Prospects Watch Thread [Archive]

Bruno

01-10-2007, 06:06 AM

http://www.draftexpress.com/blogs.php?blogid=4

Robertas Javtokas was considered the best defensive big man in last year’s edition of the Euroleague. After impressive showings for Lietuvos Rytas, considered the Cinderella story of the competition, Robertas was very close to signing a contract with the team who owns his NBA draft rights—the San Antonio Spurs--but in the end he ended up with Greek powerhouse Panathinaikos Athens.

Even if Javtokas was regarded as a major boost to PAO’s title bid and one of the top free agent signings of the summer--given that he was the long and athletic big man they desperately lacked last season-- he has pretty much been in Coach Zeljko Obradovic’s doghouse all year despite being one of the most expensive players on the roster.

The probable reason for it—ignoring the whispers of not seeing eye to eye with the coaching staff-- is Javtokas’s inept offensive game. He has a very modest skill-set and is considered a liability on that end of the floor. Robertas has bad hands and struggles to convert anything outside of two feet from the basket. All of his points come from assisted dunks, offensive rebounds or in transition where his speed running the court helps him.

Maybe Obradovic will use him more later on in the season, when he will need more rebounding and shot-blocking the likes of the Luis Scola’s, Matjaz Smodis’ and David Andersen’s of the League.

Javtokas get more playtime in the greek league (around 15-20mpg agaisnt 7mpg in euroleague). It's a weaker competition and 50% of the games are blowout for his team. I guess that he gets more playtime in this competition because his coach wants to rest players who plays a lot in euroleague and because he uses this "weak" competition to work with Javtokas on his game.

Sanikidze seems to enter in estudiantes regular rotation. They have lost by 40 points sunday in the spanish league but Sanikidze has had a good game (8 points, 4 rebounds in 18 min). He seems to be now in the rotation (8 points, 3 rebounds in 21 min for yesterday's game) but I'm not sure for how long because a good player who plays at his spot just come back from an injury.

Nothign new for Spurs' other players : Mahinmi struggles with Pau but will get more playtime (if he plays better) because Pau will soon trade a PF, Scola is still one of the best player in europe and no news about Karaulov (I even don't know for what team he plays).

TDMVPDPOY

01-10-2007, 06:39 AM

this bs is goin to backfire on us, draft all these clowns, get hype about it from the media, and we dont bring them in allowin them to erode in europe, ending up a busts, karma is a biatch.

yourtehclay

01-10-2007, 06:41 AM

^^^
Thanks for the updates

yavozerb

01-10-2007, 08:26 AM

PLAYER POS MIN FGM-A 3GM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST PF ST TO BS PTS
BJ Elder 41:39 10-22 0-1 6-7 2 2 4 3 1 1 1 0 26
Troy Bell 37:32 7-14 2-4 0-1 2 5 7 6 4 2 3 0 16
James White 34:34 6-16 0-1 5-5 2 5 7 3 1 0 5 0 17

VaSpursFan

01-10-2007, 10:20 AM

damn...is javtokas the second coming of nazr with his hands of brick????

MoSpur

01-10-2007, 11:37 AM

I'm liking James Whites stats so far.

mountainballer

01-10-2007, 12:33 PM

here are two articles from DraftExpress, I just posted the parts about Scola and Javtokas, because the articles are long (but quite interesting for those who care)

http://draftexpress.com/blogs.php?mod=comment&p=704

Who`s Hot?

LUIS SCOLA 6-9 PF Tau Ceramica 1980
24.6mpg 15.8ppg 5.4rpg 2.1apg 60.0% FG 66.6% FT

You keep hearing Scola’s name related to the NBA year after year, but
he never makes it because of the mammoth buyout Tau Ceramica is asking.
Next year could be the year Luis Scola finally steps on the NBA court
after being the top player in international basketball for years—or at
least that’s how the mantra goes. San Antonio still has his rights,
although there have been rumours that they might trade them to another
team.

There is nothing new about him this season-- he is still the same
scoring machine who torches opponents in the post with his wide array
of skills. Scola’s presence is crucial as Tau makes another bid at the
Euroleague crown.

Standing 6-9, Scola is a solid athlete with good strength and
footspeed. He doesn’t have great size, nor is he particularly explosive
though. Scola is a very intelligent and skilled player with a wide
array of low post moves. He is also an above average shooter from
mid-range and a good passer.

A solid man-to-man defender, Luis is an average rebounder and below
average shot-blocker due to his lack of length and leaping ability.

no news. Scola remains to be probably the best PF in Europe. he delivers as usual, despite being not 100% healthy at the beginning of the season.
probably even a bit more effective, shooting over 60% FG. usually he looks as if he could switch even to a higher gear, when PO time comes. his rebounding numbers are a bit lower, but this is also be a result of Splitter getting more minutes.

overall it always gives me a pain when I see him play and think he could be a Spurs this season. (for 3 million a year). he wouldn't sove our problems regarding the lack of athleticismn and rebounding, but compared to what Horry and Bonner do, he IMO would be a huge upgrade as the first back-up PF.

http://www.draftexpress.com/blogs.php?mod=comment&p=722

WHO IS NOT?

ROBERTAS JAVTOKAS 6-11 C Panathinaikos 1980
7mpg 2.1ppg 1.1rpg 0.3bpg 5/17 FT

Robertas Javtokas was considered the best defensive big man in last
year’s edition of the Euroleague. After impressive showings for
Lietuvos Rytas, considered the Cinderella story of the competition,
Robertas was very close to signing a contract with the team who owns
his NBA draft rights—the San Antonio Spurs--but in the end he ended up
with Greek powerhouse Panathinaikos Athens.

Even if Javtokas was regarded as a major boost to PAO’s title bid and
one of the top free agent signings of the summer--given that he was the
long and athletic big man they desperately lacked last season-- he has
pretty much been in Coach Zeljko Obradovic’s doghouse all year despite
being one of the most expensive players on the roster.

The probable reason for it—ignoring the whispers of not seeing eye to
eye with the coaching staff-- is Javtokas’s inept offensive game. He
has a very modest skill-set and is considered a liability on that end
of the floor. Robertas has bad hands and struggles to convert anything
outside of two feet from the basket. All of his points come from
assisted dunks, offensive rebounds or in transition where his speed
running the court helps him.

Maybe Obradovic will use him more later on in the season, when he will
need more rebounding and shot-blocking the likes of the Luis Scola’s,
Matjaz Smodis’ and David Andersen’s of the League.

the article doesn't mention, that Panathinaikos goes without a real center most of the time.
the other center is Dejan Tomasevic, who used to be one of the best centers in Europe, and Tomasevic also averages only 11 MPG in Euroleague games.

from the few moments I can say, that Javtokas just isn't a part of this team. different to last season, he is just lost out there. it is sad, because last year it looked as if he has improved also on offense, showing some nice hook shots. this year he seems to have forgot how to do this.

overall it was a bad decision to sign with Panathinaikos. this has also destroyed any trade value his rights might have had in the summer.

Mr. Body

01-10-2007, 12:47 PM

Scola is regularly listed as a Top 5 overseas talent.

Tau is probably fucking our championship chances with their crazy buyout demands. That's their right, but it's still fucking us.

No doubt the Spurs will identify the players they want to shoot for in the '07 Draft, try to use Scola to trade up about 10-15 spots to get him, fall short of trading, and punt their fucking first round draft pick again.

:madrun

Bruno

01-10-2007, 01:16 PM

Tau is probably fucking our championship chances with their crazy buyout demands.

They have asked a $3M (or $3.5M ?) buyout last summer. It's far from being crazy. In fact it's very reasonable given that Scola is the franchise player of one of the best team in europe.

mountainballer

01-10-2007, 01:20 PM

Tau is probably fucking our championship chances with their crazy buyout demands. That's their right, but it's still fucking us.

the buyout was already there, when Spurs drafted Scola. Tau invests a lot of money in young prospects (consider, that in Europe it is the Clubs, who run all the youth programms), see also Splitter. they just don't have the financial recources to coach them for 6 or more years and then see the best of them them leave for NBA without any compensation, the moment they are starting to be productive.
the buyout has to be paid by Scola himself anyhow. last year was a good chance, when Tau reduced the buyout to 3 million and would have accepted, that Scola pays it over three years.
if Spurs had signed Scola for the 3 years/ 10 millions he demanded, he would be here this season. some called him greedy because of that demand. considering that Nocioni got the same when signing with the Bulls and Garbajosa even more from the Raptors, this isn't a greedy demand.

the whole: we have to get a center first strategy bits the FO in the ass. regarding talent Scola is far superior to the other FA aqisations. considering the aging of Horry (not exactly a secret this summer), the signing of Scola should have been the priority.

Bobby Knight, who'd coached Jordan at the 1984 Olympic trials, urged Blazers GM Stu Inman (an old pal) to take Michael. Inman said, "But we need a center." Knight yelled back, "So play him at center!" Inman didn't listen, and the result was a jaw-dropping scene: NBA commissioner David Stern walked to the podium and said, "With the second pick in the 1984 NBA Draft, Portland selects ... Sam Bowie, University of Kentucky."

ok, a bit out of proportion. just as a reminder.

Mr. Body

01-10-2007, 01:21 PM

They have asked a $3M (or $3.5M ?) buyout last summer. It's far from being crazy. In fact it's very reasonable given that Scola is the franchise player of one of the best team in europe.

Let me add a :madrun to the Spurs organization for not bringing him over when they could this summer. A burst of energy off the bench would be astonishing, nay, miraculous.

They still think they can pull something nice for him by trade. I hope they can this summer.

... I might have said that before... about a year ago...

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 03:05 PM

Eh, Scola's ACB stats aren't far and away better than Marcus Fizer's -- and Fizer was coming off a knee injury. You can certainly say he's top five in Europe, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the NBA.

AFBlue

01-10-2007, 05:08 PM

Scola needs to come across the pond in order to establish any REAL trade value. We'll see him in a Spurs Uni next year and what happens after that depends on trades, draft picks, and the development of our pool of prospects (Javtokas, Mahinmi, etc.)

leonarth

01-10-2007, 06:38 PM

Tonight, Pau defeats Aris Salonique 77 - 62 (Euroleague)

14 MAHINMI, IAN 11:45 min 8 Pts 3/4 Fg 2/2 Ft 3(off) 2 (def) 5 RBs 5 faults
19 SANDERS, MELVIN 16:00 min 10 Pts 2/5 Fg 2/3 3pt 1 (off) 2 (def) 3 Reb 1 Assist

ITW Melvin Sanders after his first game with PAU :

Pau-Orthez Forward
SANDERS, MELVIN

"It is a great pleasure to begin in a team with a victory. Aris has a good defense, but we found the solutions collectively. I was very enthusiastic to come to Pau before the game. I am more enthusiastic now as I had very good feelings in this arena with such fans as these."

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 06:39 PM

:lol Sanders? Screw Austin, Pau is officially our farm team now.

Mr. Body

01-10-2007, 06:41 PM

I want Mahinmi in the NBDL next year. He's not getting enough minutes.

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 06:44 PM

If he's as raw as he looked in summer league, he'd be struggling for minutes here too -- especially after signing Woods.

Next season, I imagine two or three of the bigs we have won't be back, so who knows?

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:49 PM

Oberto retires or signs with like Indiana.
Horry retires.

no bonner? :depressed

Mahinmi looks like a freshman year college guy. Wich is his age as well.

Hows Sanikidze doing, is that in here and I missed it?

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:50 PM

14 MAHINMI, IAN 11:45 min 8 Pts 3/4 Fg 2/2 Ft 3(off) 2 (def) 5 RBs 5 faults

i assume faults is fouls.

Damn hes a hack machine. That was his proBlem in summer league too. :(

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 06:50 PM

If Oberto opts out, he'd still be a restricted FA.

Marcus Bryant

01-10-2007, 06:53 PM

It's ok, come 2015 we'll be fine.

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:53 PM

Shit....

I personally would rather have Scola and Javtokas in here next year, if I had my druthers.

Apparently though Javtokas has fallen off the face of the earth though.

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 06:54 PM

The scuttlebutt on Robertas is his coach doesn't like his lack of offense. Makes one wonder why they signed him.

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:55 PM

It's ok, come 2015 we'll be fine

God you need prozac.

Bruno

01-10-2007, 06:56 PM

I want Mahinmi in the NBDL next year. He's not getting enough minutes.

Do you realize that he fouled out in this game ?

Mahinmi tonight games sums up what he is : a talented but very raw project.
First half : 0 pts, 0 rbds, 3 PFs in 45 seconds :spin
Second half : 8 pts, 5 rbds, 2 PFs in 11 min

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:57 PM

The scuttlebutt on Robertas is his coach doesn't like his lack of offense. Makes one wonder why they signed him.

Good question.

He never was known as a Vlade Divac.

Although his supposed assets would be quite apreciated on the team right now.

T Park

01-10-2007, 06:58 PM

Second half : 8 pts, 5 rbds, 2 PFs in 11 min

3 offensive, means he could've tipped in his own misses.

Yeah very raw, although, he shows great potential. Not ready to give up on him like some here are already.

Bruno

01-10-2007, 06:59 PM

3 offensive, means he could've tipped in his own misses.

It wasn't on his own misses.

Kori Ellis

01-10-2007, 07:01 PM

The scuttlebutt on Robertas is his coach doesn't like his lack of offense. Makes one wonder why they signed him.

Yeah it is hard to tell what's going on there.

I have realized (because of Noel's situation) that you can never figure out what's going on just because someone doesn't get playing time. Noel was told he had a chance to start before he left Seattle to sign with Maccabi. Now in Maccabi, he mostly racks up DNP-CD's and five minute games. He never had a chance to start. His agent calls their coach and they tell him everything's fine. (The GM even lied to Noel's agent and said Noel was playing 20+ mpg :lol Like he couldn't see a boxscore.) Oh well, I guess at least he is making money but he's dying to play. Sometimes the coaches have obligations to play certain guys, etc.

I hope Javtokas actually gets on track and gets more playing time.

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 07:04 PM

I feel bad for Noel. I think he'd have been a Sonic before Glyniadakis, and probably wouldn't have gotten waived in favor Andre Brown.

timvp

01-10-2007, 07:15 PM

The good thing about Javtokas sucking is that he should now come for the minimum ... which is the price tag he should have come at to begin with. Nothing humbles a player than a year spent as a 12th man. Although he seems scared to make the trip over the pond, so we may never see him in the NBA.

Mahinmi is years away and there's a chance he's never more than a Jerome Moiso. Scola would probably be decent right now but his rebounding going down is a bad sign. Time for RC to fire off another email and for Scola to whine about it. :smokin

Sanikidze is a longshot to ever make it. The Karaulov experiment is pretty much officially over. He's never even started for a Euro team.

Now that the rest of the NBA has caught up in the overseas scouting, hopefully the Spurs can adapt and be able to locate domestic talent. Seeing as how this front office has never landed one American draft pick that panned out, I'm not holding my breath.

LaMarcus Bryant

01-10-2007, 07:16 PM

timvp i gotta hand it to you, you always know how to give us a swift reality kick in the balls

Bruno

01-10-2007, 07:17 PM

:lol Sanders? Screw Austin, Pau is officially our farm team now.

Yes, our dear Melvin (look at the shirt) :
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/equipe/20062007/sanders.jpg

The good news is for people like timvp who can fear to see Sanders back with Spurs : Sanders will stay with Pau until the end of the euroleague (even if he receives a nba offer) and so he won't be able to play in nba this year.

Kori Ellis

01-10-2007, 07:17 PM

I feel bad for Noel. I think he'd have been a Sonic before Glyniadakis, and probably wouldn't have gotten waived in favor Andre Brown.

Yeah I feel sorry for him too. But at the time, there was no guarantee in Seattle and Maccabi was guaranteed. At least he has stockpiled some money and that's good for his future (and for his son). They are just funny about it, there was 100's of rumors he was getting waived last month and then the coach/GM both insist absolutely not -- but they still don't play him that much. They have some obligations to give Lior a lot of minutes. And I understand that though -- he's Israeli and they are trying to get him ready for Houston. And there's a lot of turmoil between their two owners, president, gm, coaching staff etc.

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 07:20 PM

At least he has stockpiled some money and that's good for his future (and for his son)Absolutely. He could afford to play in the D-League or the like if it came down to it without starving for a year and be exposed to many more scouts, for instance. I mainly feel bad about the PT and lack of exposure.

Kori Ellis

01-10-2007, 07:24 PM

Absolutely. He could afford to play in the D-League or the like if it came down to it without starving for a year and be exposed to many more scouts, for instance. I mainly feel bad about the PT and lack of exposure.

That's the plan. Maccabi pays for his car and housing, so he doesn't have much to spend money on. So, whenever he gets back here, be it during this season or next year. He can just play and not worry about money.

SequSpur

01-10-2007, 07:28 PM

Prospect? How bout Chris Webber? Dude is available now!

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 07:58 PM

Slightly off topic, but Stephen Graham is going to play for the Tulsa 66ers now.

timvp

01-10-2007, 08:03 PM

Slightly off topic, but Stephen Graham is going to play for the Tulsa 66ers now.

Graham was a beast in the CBA. I expect him to be pretty deadly in the NBDL. If he gets in a situation where he sees a lot of playing time, I can see him averaging 20+ easy.

I think he's an NBA player ... which is high praise for anyone in the DLeague.

By the way, ChumpDumper, have you seen the stats Will Conroy has put up recently? The last time I saw him play he couldn't score at all. Now he's putting up 20/20s and triple doubles. I thought about starting the official 'Sign Will Conroy' thread and advocate cutting Jacque Vaughn.

Now that would be a ballsy move. :cooldevil

ChumpDumper

01-10-2007, 08:10 PM

Yeah, Conroy hasn't come to Austin, but one of his 26pt/14ast/2to games is going to be on NBAtv tomorrow.

Of course, his team lost. Frank Williams scored 30pts for the opposing Skyforce, but he's been playing alot of SG lately; I don't know if Conroy would be covering him. Frank certainly looks like he's worked on his shot, if not his conditioning.

T Park

01-11-2007, 03:35 AM

Sanikidze is a longshot to ever make it

Why, the kid is 20, and a long 3 that can supposedly shoot.

I don't get the pessimism on him.

Mahinmi either.

T Park

01-11-2007, 03:36 AM

I thought about starting the official 'Sign Will Conroy' thread and advocate cutting Jacque Vaughn.

Thatll happen the same day Jackie starts at center.

ChumpDumper

01-11-2007, 06:54 PM

Conroy looked really, really good on offense. Good decision-making, mixes passing and scoring well, a fearless driver and decent finisher, turns over the ball very little considering how agressive he is. On D he was ok, looks like he could work in our system if it came down to a Beno trade.
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/getty/21/full.getty-72916090ge002_66er_14er_3_35_37_am.jpg
And damn, Frank Williams can now bury the threes when he's hot.

timvp

01-11-2007, 07:11 PM

Mr. Body

01-11-2007, 07:26 PM

He looks like he has a lot of strength. Even if I hadn't read his profile on DX I'd trade Udrih for him just off the picture. Hell, I wouldn't even need the picture.

ChumpDumper

01-11-2007, 07:40 PM

A lot of guys have been sent down in the past couple of weeks so they can be scouted along with other D-Leaguers in the MLK Showcase next week. Almost all the games are going to be on NBAtv.

ChumpDumper

01-11-2007, 10:59 PM

White is playing in Anaheim tonight, only the Arsenal audio feed is working.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20070111/AUSANA/livestats.html

Marcus Bryant

01-11-2007, 11:25 PM

Damn, Conroy got a lot skinnier. He used to be a chubster not that long ago.

In addition, he's not past his 57th birthday.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 12:26 AM

White's line vs. Anaheim
39:50 min
6-12 fg
0-2 3pt
5-7 ft
4 reb (3 off)
6 ast
4 pf
2 st
2 to
1 blk
17 pts

Nice game. White spent most of the second half feeding the hot hand in Elder.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20070111/AUSANA/boxscore.html

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 12:33 AM

Austin is a different team with Woods and White.

I don't know if White can replace Bowen's defense completely, and he may not be the rebounder we'd like, but he looks like a pretty good facilitator and secondary ball-handler. Kind of like in Cincinnati, actually.

timvp

01-12-2007, 12:35 AM

Loren Woods is going to bo buck wild in the NBDL. 20, 10 and 5 if he can stay healthy and motivated.

The thing I like so far about White is that he's helping them win. They couldn't buy a win without him. With him it seems that they are at least in every game.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 12:36 AM

Austin is a different team with Woods and White.I never thought I would say it, but you have to include Troy Bell in that sentence.

White is never going to get many rebounds unless he bulks up, and I'm not sure if that possible.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 12:38 AM

With him it seems that they are at least in every game.They only really got blown out in one, maybe two games that I saw, but having one or two guys with at least rudimentary ballhandling skills is helping this team immensely.

mountainballer

01-12-2007, 04:48 AM

Scola would probably be decent right now but his rebounding going down is a bad sign. Time for RC to fire off another email and for Scola to whine about it. :smokin

don't worry about the rebounding numbers. his Euroleague numbers are down for 1 rebound per game, this could also be just the usual up and down of stats. His numbers in the Spanish league are up, there he is currently averaging 7.7 RPG.

Sanikidze is a longshot to ever make it.

right now Sanikidze can't get any minutes at the very bad MMT team, he played only in 4 games. (don't know if there was another injury). he can get nice numbers in youth competitions, but when playing with the pros, he is struggeling. yes, he is "only" 20, but you can also argue, that he is already 20, when thinking about the difference to many 20 years old NBA or NCAA players.

JPB

01-12-2007, 06:59 AM

The next french prospects, just in case Presti reads this forum :

Nicolas Batum (SF) the next Boris Diaw ? :wow

http://nbadraft.net/profiles/largepics/nbatum07.jpg

http://www.nbadraft.net/2006ast004.asp

-----

Yannick Bokolo (PG)

http://www.allbasketball.com/img/ProA/lem_bokolo_yannick_07_200.jpg

-----

Alain Koffi (PF)

http://ww2.sport24.com/photos/1140439512.jpg

Too early to talk about it anyway.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 07:05 AM

Koffi has worked out with Spurs last summer.

I really like Batum and Bokolo. Batum has all the tools to be better than Diaw but he should be a high lottery pick when he will enter in the draft.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 08:34 AM

I want Mahinmi in the NBDL next year. He's not getting enough minutes.

I think the main advantage of bringing Mahinmi over next year, even if he isn't "ready", is that the Spurs FO will be able to monitor his progress more closely. Right now I know nothing about what he's been doing, that's why I love this thread. Here's what I want to know:

1. Has he put on "good" weight? All the pre-draft scouting reports, and those from the summer league, say this kid's biggest weakness was his inability to hold post positions or finish around the basket because of how skinny he was (some say 6'10, 210?). The scouts seemed to indicate that he had the ability to put on weight, but I was wondering if there had been any results. Update?

2. If the Spurs bring him over next year, does his guaranteed contract take effect then, or is the meter already running?

3. Are his fouls due to agressiveness (a positive trait), or because he tries to overcompensate for his lack of size by using his athleticism to make plays (mis-timed shot block attempts, on-the-ball steal attempts, etc.)?

4. His biggest strength listed in reports was rebounding (b/c of the athleticism). How's he doing with that? A per 40 number?

5. Has his 12/15 ft shot improved? Is he taking those shots? If not, how is he getting his points in limited minutes?

I know those are tough questions to answer for anyone not monitoring his play or watching tape of his game, which leads me to my point. As ignorant as I am on this guy, I wonder how much smarter the Spurs staff are. That's why I'm a proponent of getting this kid stateside so we can 'no kidding' monitor his progress.

JPB

01-12-2007, 09:13 AM

Koffi has worked out with Spurs last summer.

I really like Batum and Bokolo. Batum has all the tools to be better than Diaw but he should be a high lottery pick when he will enter in the draft.

Didn't know Koffi worked out with Spurs.

Batum Better than Diaw, I don't know. Its hard to tell cos he's only 18 and doesn't play a lot (15 mpg Ithink) but I liked what I saw too (ball IQ, court vision).

Bokolo is the most proven since he was in Japan, last World champs, and showed very promising things. Would make a nice TP back up (similar games, T mentoring him) but would be drafted to high IMO.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 09:37 AM

Bokolo is usually projected in the 2nd round. Draft Express has him in the late 2nd.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 09:42 AM

I think the main advantage of bringing Mahinmi over next year, even if he isn't "ready", is that the Spurs FO will be able to monitor his progress more closely. Right now I know nothing about what he's been doing, that's why I love this thread. Here's what I want to know:

1. Has he put on "good" weight? All the pre-draft scouting reports, and those from the summer league, say this kid's biggest weakness was his inability to hold post positions or finish around the basket because of how skinny he was (some say 6'10, 210?). The scouts seemed to indicate that he had the ability to put on weight, but I was wondering if there had been any results. Update?

2. If the Spurs bring him over next year, does his guaranteed contract take effect then, or is the meter already running?

3. Are his fouls due to agressiveness (a positive trait), or because he tries to overcompensate for his lack of size by using his athleticism to make plays (mis-timed shot block attempts, on-the-ball steal attempts, etc.)?

4. His biggest strength listed in reports was rebounding (b/c of the athleticism). How's he doing with that? A per 40 number?

5. Has his 12/15 ft shot improved? Is he taking those shots? If not, how is he getting his points in limited minutes?

I know those are tough questions to answer for anyone not monitoring his play or watching tape of his game, which leads me to my point.

I haven't watched him a lot (maybe 2 or 3 times) but I will try to answer at your questions.

1. You can judge by yourself by looking at these pictures (taken two days ago, Mahinmi is number 14 with a white jersey) :
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/07482A%7E1.JPG
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/074867%7E1.JPG

2. His guaranteed contract will only start when he will sign with Spurs. The meter isn't runing this year.

3. Agressivness, lack of experience (a lot of silly fouls) and poor refs (refs sucks in french league).

4. Euroleague : 12 rbds/40min
French league : 10 rbds/40min

5. I haven't seen him taking 12/15 ft shot. Put backs, transition and basic post moves are how he scored in the games I've watched.

As ignorant as I am on this guy, I wonder how much smarter the Spurs staff are. That's why I'm a proponent of getting this kid stateside so we can 'no kidding' monitor his progress.

Do you realize that :

- Spurs have tapes for all Mahinmi games. Euroleague games are on TV, some french league games too and I'm quite sure they have tapes for french leagues games that aren't on TV.

- Pau's coach is close to Spurs and works for them every summer duting summer leagues. He can do some reports about Mahinmi for them. If Pau ahs signed a palyer like Melvin Sanders, it's because Pau's coach is very close to SA.

- Pau's physical trainer for this year is a member of Spurs' staff and is paid by SA. Spurs knows perfectly how Mahinmi is improving his body strenght.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 09:45 AM

Bokolo is usually projected in the 2nd round. Draft Express has him in the late 2nd.

And I don't thin he would go really higher. he ahs still big weakness in his games : he is a poor scorer (bad jumpshot and layups) and his playmakings skill are very basic.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 10:08 AM

I haven't watched him a lot (maybe 2 or 3 times) but I will try to answer at your questions.

1. You can judge by yourself by looking at these pictures (taken two days ago, Mahinmi is number 14 with a white jersey) :
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/07482A%7E1.JPG
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/074867%7E1.JPG

2. His guaranteed contract will only start when he will sign with Spurs. The meter isn't runing this year.

3. Agressivness, lack of experience (a lot of silly fouls) and poor refs (refs sucks in french league).

4. Euroleague : 12 rbds/40min
French league : 10 rbds/40min

5. I haven't seen him taking 12/15 ft shot. Put backs, transition and basic post moves are how he scored in the games I've watched.

Hey, thanks for all the info and the quick response.

I'm put at ease about the contract situation, because it means the Spurs can take their time with bringing him overseas. Liked what I saw of the pictures and what you said of his agressiveness/rebounding.

Do you realize that :

- Spurs have tapes for all Mahinmi games. Euroleague games are on TV, some french league games too and I'm quite sure they have tapes for french leagues games that aren't on TV.

- Pau's coach is close to Spurs and works for them every summer duting summer leagues. He can do some reports about Mahinmi for them. If Pau ahs signed a palyer like Melvin Sanders, it's because Pau's coach is very close to SA.

- Pau's physical trainer for this year is a member of Spurs' staff and is paid by SA. Spurs knows perfectly how Mahinmi is improving his body strenght.

Actually I didn't know all that, so thanks again. I consider myself much less ignorant and much more at ease with the Mahinmi Project's development.

JPB

01-12-2007, 10:10 AM

Agree on Bokolo (i wasnt' really serious on him backing up Tony)

It's hard to really judge how Mahinmi would do in the NBA from what you see in his games so far. he has real foul problems anyway.

But I don't see him joigning Spurs next year. Too soon.

mountainballer

01-12-2007, 10:18 AM

Bokolo is the most proven since he was in Japan, last World champs, and showed very promising things. Would make a nice TP back up (similar games, T mentoring him) but would be drafted to high IMO.

no way. first of all his size will hurt him. DraftExpress has listed him 6-4, this is just wrong.
he is 6-2 and since he is one of this many SGs with PG size, this will not impress any NBA team. if he can show improvement playing the point, he might rise to mid of 2nd round. however, he will be in the reach of the Spurs 2nd rounders.
right now he doesn't impress much in the French league, in the Euroleague he looks a bit better, but far from making scouts rave about him.
given the fact, that he will be already 22 on draft day (so his upside will be questioned) I really can't see him anywhere else than in the second round. so he definitly is an option for the Spurs, but hopefully they won't use the first rounder on him.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 10:49 AM

Agree on Bokolo (i wasnt' really serious on him backing up Tony)

I think Bokolo can maybe be a good backup PG in nba (in the Marcus Banks mold).

I will really like if Spurs draft him with a second round pick and work with him and his shooting and playmaking skills during his rookie year. He could become a good backup PG for Spurs in 08-09.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 10:55 AM

I'd be more interested in a Mustafa Shakur or even a Javaris Crittendon, should he go out. Shakur could drop into the 2nd round and I'd be surprised if he couldn't pan out as at least a back-up point in this league.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 11:04 AM

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 11:08 AM

Specifically NOT a European PG. I'm all about American players nowadays.

:king

pad300

01-12-2007, 11:42 AM

How about another European PG!?!

Mantas Kalnietis, Lithuania

Goran Dragic, Slovenia

Anton Ponkrashov, Russia - he is likely better than either of them. He might well be available in the 2nd, possibly deep.

JPB

01-12-2007, 11:46 AM

I think Bokolo can maybe be a good backup PG in nba (in the Marcus Banks mold).

I will really like if Spurs draft him with a second round pick and work with him and his shooting and playmaking skills during his rookie year. He could become a good backup PG for Spurs in 08-09.

Ok, so I was serious :lol

Seriously you're right, he does need to work on his shoot and finishing and I don't know if spurs have the time to wait. Maybe as a third PG the first year...
Anyway he has speed, slashing and athletics (remember that dunk against Argentinia ?).

picnroll

01-12-2007, 12:02 PM

1. You can judge by yourself by looking at these pictures (taken two days ago, Mahinmi is number 14 with a white jersey) :
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/07482A%7E1.JPG
http://www.elan-bearnais.fr/cal/0607/matches/aris/074867%7E1.JPG

- Pau's physical trainer for this year is a member of Spurs' staff and is paid by SA. Spurs knows perfectly how Mahinmi is improving his body strenght.
I see the pictures. Question is can he hold position any better, either in low post on offense or for rebounding. In SL he was getting knocked around with ease.

wildbill2u

01-12-2007, 12:06 PM

Sounds like all the great Euro prospects we have, with the exception of Scola, are panning out so well in reality. Remember all those threads last summer about how Javtokas was the saviour du jour?

These guys were drafted so the Spurs wouldn't have to pay out any first round money. They were, and are, way out possibilities that haven't cost us anything other than a missing draft pick for a US player who might not have made the team anyway.

JPB

01-12-2007, 12:10 PM

I see the pictures. Question is can he hold position any better, either in low post on offense or for rebounding. In SL he was getting knocked around with ease.

He still needs to work on his position (PF) basis. He has natural skills but has to work on all the big men fundamentals.

Basically, he's still fresh.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Anton Ponkrashov, Russia - he is likely better than either of them. He might well be available in the 2nd, possibly deep.

Ponkrashov is huge, likely in the Marko Jaric mold. He may be an adept passer and decent ballhandler, but getting regular minutes at the backup PG spot? I dunno.

BTW, I was being sarcastic about adding another foreign PG.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 01:37 PM

BTW, I was being sarcastic about adding another foreign PG.

Cool.

Maybe we can convince BufordPop that Mustafa Shakur is from a foreign place! :spin

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 01:56 PM

Cool.

Maybe we can convince BufordPop that Mustafa Shakur is from a foreign place! :spin

Or Mario Chalmers....there was this italian guy from a video game with the same first name.

Mario...could even be from Argentina, and you know how Pop and RC are about those Argentines!

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 02:10 PM

no more euros and no more projects

Kori Ellis

01-12-2007, 02:31 PM

no more euros and no more projects

So they should draft veterans? :spin

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 02:37 PM

So they should draft veterans? :spin

no, just american college players. ie, players that can contribute right away. no more of this farm system BS that's left the spurs old and out of step.

Kori Ellis

01-12-2007, 02:38 PM

no, just american college players. ie, players that can contribute right away. no more of this farm system BS that's left the spurs old and out of step.

American college players will still be projects at the end of the first round. But I get your point.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 02:38 PM

So they should draft veterans? :spin

Maybe a three/four yr college guy with good skills, but not crazy upside. A couple years ago that player was Josh Howard.

In '07 I think it's possible that a guy like Jeff Green, 6'8 225lb combo forward (Georgetown), falls to the later part of the first round because he doesn't have crazy upside and isn't the score-first flashy superstar. He's a good all-around player and contributes without dominating the ball.

Maybe he falls and maybe he doesn't, but the point is that decent players seemably w/o much "upside" fall in the draft. The Spurs have 3 or 4 picks in the '07 draft and I hope that at least ONE is like Jeff Green....or is Jeff Green.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 02:44 PM

I like the thinking. It will be a big-man heavy draft so most teams will look to collect theirs there. Plus teams usually are going for 'upside' or, as Hubie Brown might put it, 'upside potential' (which is I guess the potential to someday have upside). There may be some seniors dropping to the latter part of the draft and into the second round who will be worth a look, and then some guys who declared early but are getting boxed out by some of their peers. Jeff Green would absolutely be the type of guy to help the Spurs.

Second round I'd like to look for senior point guards, undersized big men, undersized scorers with ability, and so on, with foreign players being last on the list. So make it Mustafa Shakur, Mario Boggan, Demetrius Nichols, and then finally a dude like Ponkrashov.

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 02:51 PM

American college players will still be projects at the end of the first round.

Paul Milsap, Leon Powe, Jordan Farmar, Alexander Johnson suggest otherwise. not polished, but they're able to contribute right away.

timvp

01-12-2007, 02:52 PM

The Spurs suck at drafting American players. I'd trust a vote on SpursTalk on who to draft over the Spurs' scouts regarding domestic talent.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 02:53 PM

They absolutely suck at drafting Americans, but that has to change.

objective

01-12-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

American college players will still be projects at the end of the first round.

Paul Milsap, Leon Powe, Jordan Farmar, Alexander Johnson suggest otherwise. not polished, but they're able to contribute right away.

Don't forget other end of 1st/2nd round projects like Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, David Lee, Gilbert Arenas and the already mentioned Josh Howard who happen to contribute right away.

Kori Ellis

01-12-2007, 03:14 PM

Don't forget other end of 1st/2nd round projects like Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, David Lee, Gilbert Arenas and the already mentioned Josh Howard who happen to contribute right away.

Sure, you can go through and pick guys at the end of past drafts that are good. You can also go through and find tons more that aren't.

My point was that every player when they are new to the NBA is a project unless they are LeBron's. I was agreeing with the poster that the Spurs should draft Americans. I just still would consider them projects - no one is a sure thing.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 03:19 PM

The Spurs will probably accidentally draft Randy Holcomb again.

objective

01-12-2007, 03:21 PM

every new player in the NBA is a project unless they are a Lebron or Carmelo?

there is a difference though between a project who can contribute immediately and a project who couldn't even get on the active roster, like Sanikidze for instance. Even Beno contributed immediately, and guys like Mahinmi and Sanikidze were predicted and fulfilled the promise of being years away from contributing.

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 03:21 PM

Sure, you can go through and pick guys at the end of past drafts that are good. You can also go through and find tons more that aren't.

and my point is that those players at the end of the draft that can play right away are much more likely to be americans than foreigners.

My point was that every player when they are new to the NBA is a project unless they are LeBron's. I was agreeing with the poster that the Spurs should draft Americans. I just still would consider them projects - no one is a sure thing.

well, i guess we think of the word "project" differently.

mountainballer

01-12-2007, 03:56 PM

Even Beno contributed immediately, and guys like Mahinmi and Sanikidze were predicted and fulfilled the promise of being years away from contributing.

difference was, that Beno was 22 when he was drafted and already had played professional basketball for 5 years, some in the most competitive leagues in Europe (like Euroleague).

Mahinmi and Sanikidze were both 18 when they were drafted and had played little minutes in the mediocre French league.
yes, they were years away and unfortunatly they still are. noone is showing the kind of progress you would expect when hoping that they could contribute in the NBA one day.
(to be fair, Sanikidze had bad luck with his injury)

evaluating thoses drafts, it would have been so much better to go for the not so raw players, hoping to have found the European Amare Studemire and the second comming of AK47.

the Sanikidze pick could have been Ariza (the pick was prearanged, Hawks would have picked Ariza if Spurs ask them), the Mahinmi pick could have been Lee. at least Thomas watches the domestic college players.
Ariza and Lee were able to play with some impact from the beginning.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 04:53 PM

You can take every team in the league and say they have drafted player X while player Y was available with player Y >>>>>>>>> player X. I'ts a wrong way to judge a draft.

Bottomline is that Spurs have been very successful at drafting foreigner. Parker, Ginobili, Scola, Javtokas are all great picks. Udrih is an ok pick given who was available in this draft and it's still too soon for Sanikidze and Mahinmi.

And the "they should have drafted solid ncaa players instead of Mahinmi and Sanikidze" is quite stupid :

- Don't forget that Ariza was a freshman : he wasn't at all a ready to contribute player. 10 seniors have been drafted after Sanikidze and only one is still in the league : Pape Sow.

- Spurs have drafted Mahinmi just after the championship. They were really deep at PF/C with Duncan, Rasho, Nazr, Horry and Scola (Spurs really though that he will sign with them at that moment). Drafting a ready to go PF/C would have make few sense because they needn't immediate help. They have chosen the player with a lot of upside and it was the logical choice even that with hindsight you can say that it was a mistake .

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 05:15 PM

- Spurs have drafted Mahinmi just after the championship. They were really deep at PF/C with Duncan, Rasho, Nazr, Horry and Scola (Spurs really though that he will sign with them at that moment). Drafting a ready to go PF/C would have make few sense because they needn't immediate help. They have chosen the player with a lot of upside and it was the logical choice even that with hindsight you can say that it was a mistake .

I agree about Mahinmi because the Spurs only had one pick and no apparent need. I'm just saying that the Spurs have OBVIOUS needs for instant contributors, so that should be the target of at least their first rounder in 2007. Hell, I think they should try to package future picks and trade up if they think they can get a good/great player.

objective

01-12-2007, 05:15 PM

You can take every team in the league and say they have drafted player X while player Y was available with player Y >>>>>>>>> player X. I'ts a wrong way to judge a draft.

we're in agreement, i've already posted the same. But there's nothing wrong with comparing drafts and positions. Nobody leaps to the defense of the Celtics, the Magic and the Jazz front offices for passing on Tony Parker for guys like Jeryl Sasser.

Bottomline is that Spurs have been very successful at drafting foreigner.

what about domestic product?

Don't forget that Ariza was a freshman : he wasn't at all a ready to contribute player.

I think there are two arguements in this thread which are getting mingled and confused:

1. scouting of US based talent

2. drafting of 'NBA-ready' players, foreign or otherwise (like Beno, who was thought to be ready, and proved it)

Besides, Ariza played 80 games his rookie year, averaged 17 minutes a game, scored double figures 18 times, 14 games of at least 5 rebounds, and 19 games of at least 2 steals.

For myself, I've already posted that I think it's too soon for me to look at Mahinmi in comparison to his draft and his impact.

But with Sanikidze it's been two and a half years, and he's a project with little to show for it. In less time, Mahinmi has an arc of becoming a starter, then moving on to a bigger stage and a Euroleague team where he was expected to start, though it didn't work out as hoped. Sanikidze doesn't have that, injuries or not.

It's sad when reasoned observation and comments on Sanikidze and his status are termed 'quite stupid'.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 05:25 PM

Besides, Ariza played 80 games his rookie year, averaged 17 minutes a game, scored double figures 18 times, 14 games of at least 5 rebounds, and 19 games of at least 2 steals.On a shitty, shitty team. No way he would've gotten that on a championship team. I have no doubt in my mind that the PT helped Ariza more than not playing with the Spurs woud have.

The simple fact is that players taken as low as the Spurs picks are always crap shoots no matter what. The Spurs take long term gambles in the second round because they have the biggest potential payoff with no real penalty if they don't work out.

objective

01-12-2007, 05:34 PM

So either Ariza was ready to contribute or he wasn't. Even the worst teams in NBA history have guys glued to the bench.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 05:37 PM

He was ready to contribute to the worst team in the league and got better with the playing time.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 05:42 PM

The simple fact is that players taken as low as the Spurs picks are always crap shoots no matter what. The Spurs take long term gambles in the second round because they have the biggest potential payoff with no real penalty if they don't work out.

The simple fact is the Spurs' front office cannot compare to Isiah Thomas when it comes to pegging young talent. In this Thomas is practically unrivalled. The man is a fiend for the bad financial move, but he has consistently found value wherever his picks are. He picked up Ariza with a second round pick, had a fantastic draft with Lee, Robinson, and Frye last year, this year got Balkman, who is a hustling maniac, and Collins, who may not pan out, but is at least defensive minded. Not only those picks, but he plucked Jackie Butler out of the NBDL and nabbed Ime Udoka over the summer, although he wasn't able to keep him. Udoka is a player the Spurs would love to have.

The point of all this is, for some teams and some general managers, their picks are crap shoots. The Spurs, when drafting domestic talent, are betting blind so much that they practically refused to draft American players for a while. Fortunately they've made up for it, somewhat by their foreign scouting and, moreso, by having Duncan and making shrewd personnel decisions (erring at times for caution).

But drafting... some guys are rolling blind, some guys are winning the game. For his many other faults, Isiah is aces at scouting. The Spurs basically suck.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 05:44 PM

The simple fact is the Spurs' front office cannot compare to Isiah Thomas when it comes to pegging young talent.So hire him as a scout when he gets fired.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 05:44 PM

So hire him as a scout when he gets fired.

I'll be the first to raise that banner.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 05:52 PM

we're in agreement, i've already posted the same. But there's nothing wrong with comparing drafts and positions. Nobody leaps to the defense of the Celtics, the Magic and the Jazz front offices for passing on Tony Parker for guys like Jeryl Sasser.

My point is that a pick isn't bad if one better player was available. A pick is bad when you look at players drafted after and that most of them are better.

what about domestic product?

Romain Sato ?

Besides, Ariza played 80 games his rookie year, averaged 17 minutes a game, scored double figures 18 times, 14 games of at least 5 rebounds, and 19 games of at least 2 steals.

You have to judge if a player is nba ready just before the draft and not after one year.
If Spurs wanted a nba ready player, they wouldn't have picked Ariza.

But with Sanikidze it's been two and a half years, and he's a project with little to show for it.

Since he has been drafted Sanikidze :

- has spend one year in France where he has averaged 5 pts/3 rbds. That's poor stats but he was very young. As an example, Nicolas Batum (who has the same age that Sanikidze in 04-05 and who is a future lottery pick) averages 3 pts/ 2 rbds in french league.

- hasn't played in 05-06 because of an injury.

- has played well with Georgia youth team and senior team last summer while he hasn't played for one year. Youth competition level was very low but the senior one was higher.

- Has missed the whole training camp and the start of the season with estudiantes because of Georgia NT and a visa problem. He hasn't played a lot but it's quite understandable and he seems to play more lately with some success.

Even if he will maybe be a bust, I find that it's still too soon to give up on him.

pad300

01-12-2007, 05:55 PM

I'll be the first to raise that banner.

That's Three of us who like the idea.

BTW. To the guy who said Ponkrashov is huge...
YEP!
6'7" and 205 at last measurements.
He can play 1 2 or 3 - versatility in the spots we could use some. He really does have the skills. His athleticism might be a problem, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's good enought. He's got BBall IQ.
The size is a real asset for us - it allows him to play with an undersized partner at the 2 (or as the 2 with another 1). For example in 2 PG sets with TP, like we have used Beno, without giving up a defensive mismatch with the opposing SG (both Beno and Tony are really undersized to defend SG's - they get bullied a bit).

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 05:58 PM

The kid isn't 16 yrs old anymore. There are guys in college vastly outplaying Sanikidze right now. Tons of guys. Hurt... visa problems... who cares a whip? If he was worth it, they could have fixed the Visa problems. Countries do all kinds of shenanigans to get players on teams. Just ask 'Turkoglu'.

objective

01-12-2007, 06:06 PM

Even if he will maybe be a bust, I find that it's still too soon to give up on him.

I don't regard it as giving up on Sanikidze. Only as being realistic with him as a player right now and in the short term with the Spurs plans (through the 07 season for example).

Even if he never plays, Bust is a strong word for a second round pick who are usually risks anyway, very few players are regarded as 'sure-things' in the second, usually players who happen to slide out of the first round.

But I have no problem in looking at 2 small forward prospects who were born within 10 months of each other and are both 6'8", drafted one after the other, and examining the two. But some people do, for whatever reason.

Does their order in the draft have anything to do with domestic scouting quality, or just the usual roll of the dice teams take in a draft? As I posted before, a reasonable arguement could be made for the former based on the history. Is it a divine truth? No, just an arguement with some documented facts to go with it.

-----

The timeline for Sanikidze I think you would have to admit does not inspire the same confidence one would get from a similar timeline of Mahinmi.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 06:07 PM

There are guys in college vastly outplaying Sanikidze right now. Tons of guys.

Spurs should have drafted Kevin Durant.

Hurt... visa problems... who cares a whip?

Sanikidze should have played better when he was injured and when he was at 1000 miles away from his team.

If he was worth it, they could have fixed the Visa problems. Countries do all kinds of shenanigans to get players on teams. Just ask 'Turkoglu'.

Visa problems are quite usual in Europe. If I remember well, Sanikidze has lost something like 3 weeks with estudiantes because of that.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 06:09 PM

We drafted Ian in the first round. Manu, Giricek, Scola and Javtokas have really spoiled people. Expecting home runs with every crappy draft pick is just unrealistic.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 06:14 PM

I think what's getting people het up is that the 2007 draft looks a lot like a homerun draft. Not every player will be great, or even serviceable, but it looks nice and juicy. What happened with the last homerun draft in 2003? We punted. A lot of us are concerned we'll wind up punting again. Not literally - it's hard to get rid of 3 picks - but the equivalent. I'm half expecting a slew of foreign players again, which might as well kill us.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 06:17 PM

If we're relying on low draft picks, we're already dead.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 06:17 PM

Does their order in the draft have anything to do with domestic scouting quality, or just the usual roll of the dice teams take in a draft? As I posted before, a reasonable arguement could be made for the former based on the history. Is it a divine truth? No, just an arguement with some documented facts to go with it.

Ariza has been drafted with the 44th pick.
You can praise Isiah Thomas for being great at scouting domestic talents but blaming Spurs for being poor on scouting domestic talents only because of that is a reach : tons of teams have drafted a worse player than Ariza while he was still available.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 06:19 PM

I also think we are slightly less likely to punt because of our cap situation this summer.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 06:24 PM

We can't punt.

We need to replenish the team.

All we have is low draft picks.

That's it.

The reason for the cap room in 2008 is not a big free agent.

It's to replenish the team as much as possible.

By then all these players will be gone: Barry, Horry, Elson, Oberto, Vaughn, Udrih, Finley, and probably Bowen.

A big push to find replacements must begin this summer. This draft is extremely important.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 06:25 PM

Again if you think the answer is at #27 and below, that's fine.

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 06:31 PM

Did I ever say it was?

Bruno

01-12-2007, 06:33 PM

The reason for the cap room in 2008 is not a big free agent.

It's to replenish the team as much as possible.

Have you realized that Spurs will be at best $8M under the cap in 08 and that they will have more money to replenish by spending the MLE in 07 and in 08 ?

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 06:35 PM

Of course, but people are freaking out about this cap room plan as if the Spurs plan on going after (and crapping out on) some high level FA. Not so. They're trying to save money so they can retool the team in multiple spots. Obviously they'll have MLEs in the meantime.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 06:39 PM

Did I ever say it was?

This draft is extremely important.What are you saying?

Mr. Body

01-12-2007, 06:58 PM

That this draft is extremely important but it's not the only thing we have. It's not hard to figure out, bub.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 07:02 PM

So the answer is at #27 and below.

objective

01-12-2007, 07:05 PM

Have you realized that Spurs will be at best $8M under the cap in 08 and that they will have more money to replenish by spending the MLE in 07 and in 08

FWIW, if the Spurs sign anybody to the MLE in the summer of 07 to a multi-year deal that pretty much does away with the caproom in 08.

EDIT: oops, misread. disregard.

objective

01-12-2007, 07:13 PM

You can praise Isiah Thomas for being great at scouting domestic talents but blaming Spurs for being poor on scouting domestic talents only because of that is a reach : tons of teams have drafted a worse player than Ariza while he was still available.

If I was questioning the Spurs domestic scouting based only on Sanikidze . . . you'd be right, that is a reach.

But I'm not. From another recent thread about Joel Pryzbilla:

They haven't drafted a US-produced player other than Tim Duncan who has made any impact in Pop's entire tenure.

Now every team in the league has passed over better players and made mistakes, so everybody does it, but I don't know if anyone else has so long a tenure and has reliably missed out on US product.

Just doing position for position, Beno over Duhon, Sanikidze over Ariza, Karaulov instead of Butler, Bracey over Mo Evans, Carrawell over Michael Redd, Corey Alexander over Eric Snow. Heck even though it's blasphemous they took one foreign scoring point guard over a domestic scoring point guard just about the same age, Parker over Arenas. But that's just nit-picking, Parker has been great and an all-star.

That's probably why they finally hired someone to be their director of college player personnel. Better late than neve

So when I talk about the Spurs and domestic scouting, I'm going back years and years.

Maybe I don't give them enough credit for having a guy like Raja Bell in camp (even though they didn't keep him due to Dial if I remember right).

And maybe it's wrong to say 'probably' instead of 'maybe' with regards to the domestic scouting concerns being the cause of them hiring a director of college player personnel.

But hey, it's just a discussion.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 07:18 PM

The Spurs have only kept a handful of crappy first round picks -- the top picks available to them. Parker, Beno and Ian. The rest they traded away due to tax/cap concerns or their targets' being taken higher (Krstic, Ebi). The overall record when they actually pick isn't terrible. Not perfect, not terrible.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 07:28 PM

Now every team in the league has passed over better players and made mistakes, so everybody does it, but I don't know if anyone else has so long a tenure and has reliably missed out on US product.

Just doing position for position, Beno over Duhon, Sanikidze over Ariza, Karaulov instead of Butler, Bracey over Mo Evans, Carrawell over Michael Redd, Corey Alexander over Eric Snow. Heck even though it's blasphemous they took one foreign scoring point guard over a domestic scoring point guard just about the same age, Parker over Arenas. But that's just nit-picking, Parker has been great and an all-star.

Do you realize that you can do the same thing (player X over player Y) for every franchise in the league and every franchise will look horrible.
Just choose randomly one and you will see how easy it is.

objective

01-12-2007, 07:33 PM

Do you realize that you can do the same thing (player X over player Y) for every franchise in the league and every franchise will look horrible.
Just choose randomly one and you will see how easy it is.

Do you realize that I didn't include foreign talent that they passed up, like Anderson Varajao or Mehmet Okur? That's for a reason.

You can't name me an American product the Spurs drafted other than Tim Duncan in the Pop era that helped the Spurs in any meaningful way.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 07:37 PM

Right, we traded a couple of picks to get Speedy Claxton. That worked out well while it lasted.

Living in the past gets very old.

Bruno

01-12-2007, 07:46 PM

Do you realize that I didn't include foreign talent that they passed up, like Anderson Varajao or Mehmet Okur? That's for a reason.

It has nothing to do with foreign and us player.
If you look at the draft history by looking at what player they have missed, every franchise is horrible.
Just choose one franchise and you will realize it.

You can't name me an American product the Spurs drafted other than Tim Duncan in the Pop era that helped the Spurs in any meaningful way.

Spurs haven't spend a first round pick on a american player (except Tim) for 10 years, it's quite logical that they haven't drafted a meaningful player.

objective

01-12-2007, 07:47 PM

and yes, sometimes they traded picks for established NBA players (American), and got good/great value.

The Curley pick for Sean Elliott. Brilliant pick, that alone should have gotten Pop the Executive of the Year award that season along with the Avery and Person pick-ups, but he was robbed.

The Felipe Lopez slot for Antonio Daniels. Sure Rashard Lewis and Al Harrington were available, but Daniels in exchange for that late a pick was great value for a known product over high schoolers.

But even the stories you hear about players that the Spurs coveted that didn't fall to them are mostly foreigners. Kirilenko. Krstic. Diaw. Kryapha. Delfino. Now wanting those guys, certainly AK, Nenad and Diaw I think coincides with the widely held belief that the Spurs are great at scouting foreign talent. I don't dispute that at all. It's the domestic angle I'm interested in.

The counter-examples were of the Spurs trying to trade Beno for Jarrett Jack's rights and them wanting Jameer Nelson, who slipped farther in the draft than expected and where another team made a trade to get him at 20.

objective

01-12-2007, 08:00 PM

Living in the past gets very old.

The Spurs domestic scouting is in the present, and can be informed on by the past. And will apply to the future.

Hopefully their new DCPP will help them.

I am NOT crying about how awesome and unbeatable the Spurs would be if only they drafted (insert name) instead of (insert name).

I'm just reviewing their domestic scouting based only on what us laypersons can see, stuff in the public record.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 09:15 PM

James White vs. LA D-fenders tonight
34:11 min
9-15 fg
2-4 3pt
5-6 ft
1 reb
3 ast
5 pf
1 st
3 to
1 blk
25 pts

Looks like the Toros shut 'em down in the 4th. My favorite ne'er do well Sean Banks dropped 30 on them though.

AFBlue

01-12-2007, 09:25 PM

So the answer is at #27 and below.

Why can't it be? With multiple picks the Spurs have an opportunity to draft BOTH instant contribution and projects with upside. Here's a scenario....

Jeff Green falls to the latter half of the first round because of aggressiveness concerns and the fact that he's still a "tweener". There's an instant contributor.

Rudy Fernandez falls into the second round because of buyout concerns with his European team and people questioning his heart/motivation.

One instant contributor and one "future Ginobili" to be left overseas for a year or two. Both relatively attainable. I'm just saying...yes it's possible at #27.

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 09:30 PM

There's an instant contributor.Are you sure a 12 and 6 college tweener is going to contribute instantly to a championship contentder?

picnroll

01-12-2007, 10:34 PM

White another nice game in a win.

25 pts. on 9/15. 2-4 from 3, 5-6 FTs. 3 RBs, 5 AS, 1 BS, 1 ST, 3 TO

ChumpDumper

01-12-2007, 10:37 PM

That's so 8:15.

AFBlue

01-13-2007, 06:45 PM

Are you sure a 12 and 6 college tweener is going to contribute instantly to a championship contentder?

Yep. Scouts love his all-around game and he's improved every year, but his numbers suggest he's too passive. He doesn't have to be a primary option on a championship-calibur team....at least not right away. His "game" fits the Spurs need of a long 3 that can play the small-ball 4 (what he does mostly now). He rebounds and can defend the perimeter as well as inside. He's very good at passing (goes good with unselfishness) and has been improving his outside shot/free throws (development suggests the capacity for future learning).

ChumpDumper

01-13-2007, 06:57 PM

And players like this are available every draft at 27 and after?

smdanss

01-13-2007, 07:27 PM

The question is:
Tim Duncan will still have enough energy to wait for help from 08 draft or 08 FA signing? :dizzy :dizzy

AFBlue

01-13-2007, 11:15 PM

And players like this are available every draft at 27 and after?

Nope, just this one. It's not a guarantee but a possiblity. It basically displays the depth of this particular draft in that some very legit NBA prospects can be found into the second round.

pad300

01-14-2007, 07:41 PM

And players like this are available every draft at 27 and after?

Actually, just about every draft there are players that would help a team (and the Spurs in particular) after #27. Let's look at drafts from 2000 onwards.

?before a name indicates a maybe

00 ?Brezec (27), Najera (38), Redd (43),
01 Hassel (29), Arenas (30), Okur (37), Simmons (41),
02 Gadzuric (33), Boozer (34), ?Barnes (45)
03 Howard(29), Walton (32), Pachulia (42), Bonner (45), Korver (51),
04 Varejao (30), Duhon (38),
05 Simien (29), Lee (30), Gomes (50), ?Johnson(56), ?Blatche(49)
06 ?White (31), ?Novak (32), Johnson (45), Millsap (47)

I've left out undrafted players - there usually turn out to be a couple every year who are good.
The trick, of course is to identify the players that will work out before hand, not in the rear-view mirror.

ChumpDumper

01-14-2007, 08:41 PM

The trick, of course is to identify the players that will work out before hand, not in the rear-view mirror.No shit, that was my question. If these guys were sure fire contributors, they would've been picked higher.

LaMarcus Bryant

01-14-2007, 08:47 PM

Dumpt.

mountainballer

01-15-2007, 04:06 AM

Sanikidze, V. 7:22 0 0/0 0% 0/0 0% 0/0 0% 1 0+1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 -1

this binary code is unfortunatly the stats line of Sanikidze from yesterday.
even more disappointing is the fact, that his team MMT played (and won) against the by far worst team of the Spanish league (Menorca).

till now we can call it a lost season for Sanikidze, he played only in 5 games and averages 2.2 points.
absolutly no improvement visible.
if Sanikidze can't even get the role of a back-up player on one of the worst teams of the Spanish league, the chance that he will ever be a NBA player is as high as the numbers in his stat line.

Mr. Body

01-15-2007, 04:32 AM

Eh, I was only minorly interested in Sanikidze when we traded for him in the second round, but then the more I learned about him the less impressed I was. Wasn't Tskitishvili also from Georgia? Boy, those Georgians sure know how to ball.

mountainballer

01-15-2007, 05:17 AM

Eh, I was only minorly interested in Sanikidze when we traded for him in the second round, but then the more I learned about him the less impressed I was.

back in 2004 I was quite interested, because of those AK47 comparisons. but they obviously were as wrong as all the comparisons of Skita Tskitishvili to Dirk or Gasol.

Wasn't Tskitishvili also from Georgia? Boy, those Georgians sure know how to ball.

yes, Skita also is from there.
but on the other hand, Zaza Pachulia is also from Georgia and he for sure is a player I wouldn't mind if we had him on the roster.
(btw. Zaza is playing his fourth NBA season, but is still only 22, which some doubt. they think he is already 24)

Bruno

01-15-2007, 07:05 AM

Sanikidze struggling this year is quite logical and isn't a big deal. ACB is a very though league and Sanikidze is a 20 years old rookie who hasn't played for one year and who has missed the start of the season.

Sanikidze has signed a 2 years contract, the first year is a learning year. I will start to draw conclusions about him next year.

On a side note, Mahinmi is playing better (10 pts, 8 rbds in 24 min this sunday). Let's hope he will have a strong end of the season.

spurtime

01-15-2007, 12:42 PM

Romain Sato looks like he was tearing it up in Europe last season. Then he was in the Suns' camp. What's the latest on him...Anyone know?

Here's a link that talks about his play in Europe last season...

http://217.13.116.51/noticia.jsp?temporada=E05&jornada=27&id=444

Winterthur FCB adds Romain Sato

Winterthur FC Barcelona improved its roster for the Spanish League playoffs by inking forward Romain Sato for the remainder of the season. Sato (195, 25) arrives from Sicc Jesi in the Italian League second division. He averaged 25.6 points and 7.5 rebounds in 27 regular season games, but boosted his numbers up to 35 points and 14.6 rebounds in the playoffs. Sato also shined throughout his four-year NCAA career in Xavier University, averaging 16.3 points and 8 rebounds in his senior year, making it to the Atlantic 10 All-Tournament and All-Defensive team. Sato replaced Ed Cota, whose contract expired at the end of the Spanish League regular season. Winterthur FCB may sign a center to replace Bootsy Thornton, whose injury may keep him sidelined longer than expected. In other news, Shammond Williams may miss Game 1 of the Spanish League quarterfinals against Real Madrid due to a small injury.

Bruno

01-15-2007, 12:57 PM

Sato has played last year in a bad league last year (Italian second league) and he ahs ahd great stats. He has signed with a very good team for the end of the season (Barcelona) but has done nothing for them (he was stuck at the end of the bench).

This year, he plays wor a good team (Siena) that played in Italian first league. His team is doing great, they are first for the moment. Sato averages 13.3 points, and 6.3 rebounds in 28.6 minutes in italian first league. He averages 16.3 points and 5.9 rebounds in 28.4 minutes in ULEB cup (european competition)

spurschick

01-16-2007, 11:43 AM

Something tells me we'll see James White in a Spurs uniform soon.

yourtehclay

01-17-2007, 05:56 AM

AFBlue

01-17-2007, 11:37 AM

http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20070115/SFLAUS/boxscore.html

The toros went down to the skyforce. James White had an off night shooting the ball but he seems to be doing a lot of things on the court. He blocks a nice amount of shots for a wing player.

I was pleased with his aggressiveness and form, just sad that his shots didn't fall on the only day I've seen him play.

ChumpDumper

01-17-2007, 12:36 PM

The Toros just turned the ball over 11 times in the first quarter. They're only down three now that BJ Elder checked in.

ChumpDumper

01-17-2007, 12:38 PM

White has gotten to the line a couple of times, but little else.

TDMVPDPOY

01-17-2007, 01:12 PM

Something tells me we'll see James White in a Spurs uniform soon.

ball boy, water boy doesnt count....

AFBlue

01-17-2007, 04:34 PM

White has gotten to the line a couple of times, but little else.

Looks like another "off" shooting game for 'flight', but the 7 rebounds are encouraging.

Random two-part question: When I saw the last game it looked as if they were playing exclusively zone defense.

a) Why play zone if you're prepping players to play in the NBA, which primarily uses man defense?

b) How can you ascertain someone's on-the-ball defense accurately if they don't man up as often? I only say this because someone mentioned his defense being worse than Barry's in another thread.

Leetonidas

01-21-2007, 07:16 PM

I was just wondering, does anyone think Ian will be in a Spurs uniform next year?

johnpaulwall21

01-21-2007, 11:48 PM

I dont think so cause hes still not good enough hes too raw, and he did alright in the summer league but he didnt pull NBA talent numbers. IF they were to bring him then he will get no playing time like Butler.

timvp

01-21-2007, 11:50 PM

I was just wondering, does anyone think Ian will be in a Spurs uniform next year?

I'm guessing the summer of 2008 is when the Spurs sign him. That fits with the current Holting Pattern.

The only way I think they bring him over this summer is if they weren't happy with the way the Euro team played him and they think he could develop more in D-League.

Bruno

01-22-2007, 06:32 AM

AFBlue

01-22-2007, 07:37 AM

Results of WE games (somestic leagues) :

Scola : 29pts (12/14 FG%)/6rbds in 28 min :tu
Mahinmi : 8 pts/3rbds/2blocks in 20 min. For few games, Mahinmi has solved his foul troubles.
Sanikidze : DNP CD

I guess that even Spurs don't know if they will sign Mahinmi for next season. There are a lot of factors (Spurs' situation, Pau's situation, Mahinmi level...)

Thanks for the update Bruno. I guess with those statistics, which are not anything out of the ordinary for Scola, we should be asking ourselves "will Scola be here next year?"

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 08:13 AM

Did you guys know that Dirk never pasted 25 pts. against Scola´s Argentinian national team??
thats a good stat to know,huh?
Of course Scola was guarding him.but nocioni was there for some double teams as wells,but still,I think Luis can be The best option for our team next year.

Bruno

01-22-2007, 08:29 AM

Thanks for the update Bruno. I guess with those statistics, which are not anything out of the ordinary for Scola, we should be asking ourselves "will Scola be here next year?"

Horry will retire and Sprus will need a backup PF.
The two more realistic options for the backup PF are Matt Bonner (he will be a restricted FA) and Luis Scola.
Both aren't known to be great defenders and reboundesr, they have the same age and money won't be a big factor (around $3M per year for both). Bonner has for him to be a great shooter, to be nba proven and to know Spurs system. Scola has for him his inside scoring, his BBIQ and his upside (he can be ten times better than Bonner because he has way more BB skills).

Given that Spurs will need a shooter (other Spurs bigs aren't good shooter) and that Scola's trade value is higher than Bonner's one. I think that Spurs will/should re-sign Bonner and try to get something good for the rights to Scola.

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 08:48 AM

Bruno

01-22-2007, 09:07 AM

But,with bonner only, you still need and inside player out there,when timmy is on the bench

Duncan plays 38-40mpg in playoffs, there are only 8-10 mpg without Duncan. Don't forget too Jackie Butler whose main quality is low post scoring. If The Stephen Jackson program works well with him, he can be this inside player usefull when Duncan is on the bench.

whottt

01-22-2007, 09:17 AM

I think it's a mistake to expect White to be anything more than a role player. That's the impression I get from his college history and it fits with what he's doing in the D-League.

He's got athleticism and work ethic but lacks the mindset and consistency to be a dominant player.

Best just to let a player like this be himself and not try to force him to be something he's not...no matter how spectacularly he can dunk.

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 09:21 AM

Duncan plays 38-40mpg in playoffs, there are only 8-10 mpg without Duncan. Don't forget too Jackie Butler whose main quality is low post scoring. If The Stephen Jackson program works well with him, he can be this inside player usefull when Duncan is on the bench.

I just don´t see Timmy playing 40 to 42 mins next year anymore in the playoffs,the guy is human Bruno,And he is not a kid anymore.
And don´t get me wrong I love timmy and I hope he can play till he is 50 ys old.

mountainballer

01-22-2007, 09:30 AM

Horry will retire and Sprus will need a backup PF.
The two more realistic options for the backup PF are Matt Bonner (he will be a restricted FA) and Luis Scola.
Both aren't known to be great defenders and reboundesr, they have the same age and money won't be a big factor (around $3M per year for both). Bonner has for him to be a great shooter, to be nba proven and to know Spurs system. Scola has for him his inside scoring, his BBIQ and his upside (he can be ten times better than Bonner because he has way more BB skills).

Given that Spurs will need a shooter (other Spurs bigs aren't good shooter) and that Scola's trade value is higher than Bonner's one. I think that Spurs will/should re-sign Bonner and try to get something good for the rights to Scola.

I pray that it won't be a decision between Scola and Bonner.
I agree that it will take the same type of money, probably Bonner will be a bit cheaper, but as you mentioned, Scola has much more upside.
Scola could be a decent starter at PF one day, something I can't see with Bonner.
if Spurs could sign Scola (for the mentioned 3 million/per year), they should not hesitate to do it.
then the money Bonner would cost, will be better invested in a SF. (if they had not already aquired a SF via trade during this season, what most of us hope).
jury is out on Bonner anyhow, till POs are played. if he doesn't make an impact in the PO, the Spurs won't try to resign him, even if he plays nice this season.

back to Scola: I didn't ever get the argument, that he can't play alongside Tim (because they are both inside/low block players) and so he isn't a good fit. Scola is a very smart player with some range who can very well adjust his game to the other big on the team. right now Splitter is sticking more to the low post in Tau's game and Scola doesn't have any problem with it. in fact he is shooting a higher percentage than in the last two seasons (60% FG).
so I can see him back-up Tim (which would get him let's guess 15 minutes) and play alongside Tim, when Tim moves at C. (likely another 10 MPG)

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 09:38 AM

I pray that it won't be a decision between Scola and Bonner.
I agree that it will take the same type of money, probably Bonner will be a bit cheaper, but as you mentioned, Scola has much more upside.
Scola could be a decent starter at PF one day, something I can't see with Bonner.
if Spurs could sign Scola (for the mentioned 3 million/per year), they should not hesitate to do it.
then the money Bonner would cost, will be better invested in a SF. (if they had not already aquired a SF via trade during this season, what most of us hope).
jury is out on Bonner anyhow, till POs are played. if he doesn't make an impact in the PO, the Spurs won't try to resign him, even if he plays nice this season.

back to Scola: I didn't ever get the argument, that he can't play alongside Tim (because they are both inside/low block players) and so he isn't a good fit. Scola is a very smart player with some range who can very well adjust his game to the other big on the team. right now Splitter is sticking more to the low post in Tau's game and Scola doesn't have any problem with it. in fact he is shooting a higher percentage than in the last two seasons (60% FG).
so I can see him back-up Tim (which would get him let's guess 15 minutes) and play alongside Tim, when Tim moves at C. (likely another 10 MPG)

Scola(PF)+TD(CENTER)=INTERESTING COMBO
not like the twin towers but still interesting.....

Bruno

01-22-2007, 10:01 AM

I didn't ever get the argument, that he can't play alongside Tim (because they are both inside/low block players)

I've never said that. I've said before on this board the same thing that you (Scola is smart and isn't only a low post scorer).
The edge of Bonner over Scola is that he is a shooter and that Spurs won't have a big who can shoot after Horry's retirement. Not having at all a big able to hit 3's in a team isn't a good thing in the modern nba.

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 10:07 AM

I've never said that. I've said before on this board the same thing that you (Scola is smart and isn't only a low post scorer).
The edge of Bonner over Scola is that he is a shooter and that Spurs won't have a big who can shoot after Horry's retirement. Not having at all a big able to hit 3's in a team isn't a good thing in the modern nba.

yeah,but you can sign a decent 3 pts shooter SF to take care of that,anybody can do better than Finley anyways.
I think with a decent SF a decent buckup guard an Scola playing along with TD, the team can improve ,in order to be at the same level tham on the 2004-2005 season.

Bruno

01-22-2007, 10:25 AM

yeah,but you can sign a decent 3 pts shooter SF to take care of that,anybody can do better than Finley anyways.
I think with a decent SF a decent buckup guard an Scola playing along with TD, the team can improve ,in order to be at the same level tham on the 2004-2005 season.

A backup SF (unless it's a shooting tweener SF/PF) or a backup PG has nothing to do with that. It's about being able to have a big who can shoot to space the floor when you need it.

Let's say that Spurs can trade Scola for the 35th pick of the 07 draft, I take Bonner + the pick over Scola.

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 10:29 AM

A backup SF (unless it's a shooting tweener SF/PF) or a backup PG has nothing to do with that. It's about being able to have a big who can shoot to space the floor when you need it.

Let's say that Spurs can trade Scola for the 35th pick of the 07 draft, I take Bonner + the pick over Scola.

And them you left behind a guy who´s got an Olympic gold medal,a 2nd and 4 rd. place in the last 2 world championships turnaments+ knows how to guard Dirk cause he played against him already.
Oh without mentioning he is the best available player in europe right now.
i don´t think so.
I´d keep Bonner,but For no reazon would trade Scola´s rights.

mountainballer

01-22-2007, 10:45 AM

I've never said that. I've said before on this board the same thing that you (Scola is smart and isn't only a low post scorer).

sorry, I didn't mean you.
it was an often used argument and if I remember right, even RC or Pop mentioned something like this, when they argued why they signed two centers this summer instead of signing Scola.

Bruno

01-22-2007, 11:10 AM

And them you left behind a guy who´s got an Olympic gold medal,a 2nd and 4 rd. place in the last 2 world championships turnaments+ knows how to guard Dirk cause he played against him already.
Oh without mentioning he is the best available player in europe right now.
i don´t think so.
I´d keep Bonner,but For no reazon would trade Scola´s rights.

Dude, I know Scola and what he has done. Having success in europe or in WC doesn't translate for sure in nba. Scola doesn't know more Dirk than nba players and he hasn't played against him lately.

I can be wrong but I don't see Spurs keeping Bonner and Scola. It's a lot of money ($3M for Scola and likely $2M-$3M for Bonner) and there won't be enough playtime for both.

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 11:35 AM

Dude, I know Scola and what he has done. Having success in europe or in WC doesn't translate for sure in nba. Scola doesn't know more Dirk than nba players and he hasn't played against him lately.

I can be wrong but I don't see Spurs keeping Bonner and Scola. It's a lot of money ($3M for Scola and likely $2M-$3M for Bonner) and there won't be enough playtime for both.

Scola(startin PF)+TD(Starting Center)+Bonner(Buckup PF)
it makes sence to me.+horry and a couple more will be gone,it´ll be room for some money to be spent.

mountainballer

01-22-2007, 11:53 AM

I can be wrong but I don't see Spurs keeping Bonner and Scola. It's a lot of money ($3M for Scola and likely $2M-$3M for Bonner) and there won't be enough playtime for both.

agree.
and both will ask for 3 years contracts or longer.
considering that Spurs will likely have a time shedule for bringing in Mahinmi 2008, they won't want to sign 2 PFs for 10 million contracts each.
as often, they will go for a veteran, who signs a 1 year minimum contract, to play the 3rd string PF. (PJ Brown?)

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 03:03 PM

agree.
and both will ask for 3 years contracts or longer.
considering that Spurs will likely have a time shedule for bringing in Mahinmi 2008, they won't want to sign 2 PFs for 10 million contracts each.
as often, they will go for a veteran, who signs a 1 year minimum contract, to play the 3rd string PF. (PJ Brown?)

but,guys this way we come back to this season´s history one more time,The spurs is the oldest team in the league,let´s stop bringing old people in,to me a 30 ys old is not an old player yet,but a 35, 36 ys old is an old player who wont be able to keep up with youngers players speed for example.Michael Finley and Robert Horry are the best examples.Why don´t the spurs just move the team to south florida and maybe sign a retired old man from down there???????

mountainballer

01-22-2007, 03:17 PM

but,guys this way we come back to this season´s history one more time,The spurs is the oldest team in the league,let´s stop bringing old people in,to me a 30 ys old is not an old player yet,but a 35, 36 ys old is an old player who wont be able to keep up with youngers players speed for example.Michael Finley and Robert Horry are the best examples.Why don´t the spurs just move the team to south florida and maybe sign a retired old man from down there???????

I was talking about the 3rd stringer. if we have Tim still starting at PF and Scola, then 27, backing him up, I would not mind to have a 35+ years old player on a one year minimum contract as the third option, especially when assuming that the Spurs bring in the then 22 years old Mahinmi.
of course we need younger players as starters, or in the regular rotation, but some veterans on cheap contracts don't hurt. the current problem is, that our old players are strters (Bowen) or the 2nd option as a back-up and that they are not on cheap contracts. if we had Horry or Barry playing for 1 million, I would keep them of course. (remember Kerr, Ferry, Mass, Willis, etc.)

ArgSpursFan

01-22-2007, 03:25 PM

I was talking about the 3rd stringer. if we have Tim still starting at PF and Scola, then 27, backing him up, I would not mind to have a 35+ years old player on a one year minimum contract as the third option, especially when assuming that the Spurs bring in the then 22 years old Mahinmi.
of course we need younger players as starters, or in the regular rotation, but some veterans on cheap contracts don't hurt. the current problem is, that our old players are strters (Bowen) or the 2nd option as a back-up and that they are not on cheap contracts. if we had Horry or Barry playing for 1 million, I would keep them of course. (remember Kerr, Ferry, Mass, Willis, etc.)

I remember Kerr ,Ferry and willis.Its just that Im so fuckin fristrated with the old guys this year.everytime I see finley or horry getting ready to play, just feel like turnin off the tv.

mountainballer

01-25-2007, 05:26 AM

Kori Ellis

01-25-2007, 05:29 AM

another Euroleague night with three Spurs players and no big news.

Tau had already secured the top spot in their group, so they coasted in the game against Prokom and still easyly won.
Scola had an average night (for his standards) 12 points (5-11) / 9 rebounds

Mahinmi was simply horrifying in Tau's loss against Treviso.
2 points / 1 rebound in 14 minutes, then he fouled out (as usual).
two posts back I mentioned that the Spurs likely will bring him over in the summer 2008. I have to correct myself. it will be 2018.
people often argue that he started late to play basketball.
well, last night he looked as if he played the first game in his whole life.

Javtokas was surprisingly starting for Panathinaikos, but like Tau they already had secured the top spot in their group, so Javtokas got a chance to start.
he played 19 unflashy minutes, 5 points (2-3) 6 rebounds in the loss against Partizan.

Nine rebounds is actually good for Scola, right? Do you know how many rebounds he's averaging in Euroleague games this year? (If not, I can go look it up).

How bad does Mahinmi look? Does he just look like he's not talented enough or can you still see he has a lot of potential?

Good for Javtokas, I know he wasn't playing that much for a while - good to see he got some playing time.

mountainballer

01-25-2007, 06:19 AM

Nine rebounds is actually good for Scola, right? Do you know how many rebounds he's averaging in Euroleague games this year? (If not, I can go look it up).

How bad does Mahinmi look? Does he just look like he's not talented enough or can you still see he has a lot of potential?

Good for Javtokas, I know he wasn't playing that much for a while - good to see he got some playing time.

yes, 9 rebounds are above average for Scola (he averages a subpar 5.6 this season, but he is rebounding much better in the ACB), but it is a bit less impressive considering that Prokom is a very bad rebounding team and the two PFs of them, who were around most of the time, are especially bad in this area.

Mahinmi looks like a great track and field athlete out there.
(who has played a few basketball games in highschool for fun)
I can't see where his talent could he hidden. (talking NBA level talent)
players with his size and athleticismn come as dimes a dozen in the states.
Ian is sometimes so erratic on defense, that you think he wonders by himself when and why a foul is called or not.
considering the Spurs prefer smart players, I don't see how Ian fits this demand.

2centsworth

01-25-2007, 12:21 PM

So essentially the prospect list looks horrible. Maybe Anthony Peeler is available in FA.

Bruno

01-25-2007, 12:43 PM

Mahinmi struggling in euroleague isn't a big surprise or a big deal. This is a very difficult league for young players (more than the nba) especially when they are raw paint players like Mahinmi.

Mr. Body

01-25-2007, 12:43 PM

Mahinmi looks like a great track and field athlete out there.
(who has played a few basketball games in highschool for fun)
I can't see where his talent could he hidden. (talking NBA level talent)
players with his size and athleticismn come as dimes a dozen in the states.
Ian is sometimes so erratic on defense, that you think he wonders by himself when and why a foul is called or not.
considering the Spurs prefer smart players, I don't see how Ian fits this demand.

Ouch. Ouch, Ouch, Ouch, Ouch, Ouch, Ouch.

AFBlue

01-25-2007, 01:05 PM

So essentially the prospect list looks horrible. Maybe Anthony Peeler is available in FA.

Nah, it's not that bad.

Scola has been an international superstar , and though he'll be taken down a peg or two, he still has the game to be a solid starter in this league IMO.

Butler showed in New York that he can be a dominant inside presence, but two things have happened since then:

1) He's lost a lot of the weight he used to establish position in the low post for scoring and rebounding.

2) He hasn't played significant minutes even in garbage time (1-2 min).

He is still adapting to his changed body, but the fact remains he's got a nose for the ball and knows how to put the ball in the hoop when he's underneath.

White looks like he could be a relevant bench player if he keeps progressing, though I think he's only signed with the Spurs for the rest of this year.

Fran Vazquez....oh wait, he's not a Spur...DAMN!

Bottom Line: The Spurs have a pool of talented players, especially overseas, that is really unrivaled among NBA franchises.

ChumpDumper

01-25-2007, 11:05 PM

Jeremy Richardson was just called up from the D-League by the Hawks. Make of this what you will:

According to sources, he also received serious interest following the D-League Showcase from San Antonio, Miami, Dallas and Boston -- none of whom had an available roster spot immediately available, though.

http://draftexpress.com/blogs.php?blogid=6

Dijon Thompson is available again as well, as his ten-day deals with the Hawks have expired.

ChumpDumper

01-27-2007, 10:24 PM

Forgot to mention Will Conroy notched his third triple-double of the season Friday

14 points, 14 assists, 10 rebounds and only 2 turnovers.

15 points, 14 assists and 6 rebounds in regulation tonight.

Ho-hum.

And Vincent Grier has disappeared from the Sioux Falls roster. No word on where he's gone.

Ariel

01-28-2007, 12:03 PM

Given that Spurs will need a shooter (other Spurs bigs aren't good shooter) and that Scola's trade value is higher than Bonner's one. I think that Spurs will/should re-sign Bonner and try to get something good for the rights to Scola.
Scola's trade value isn't necessarily higher than Bonner's. For one, people forget that the Spurs hold the rights to Scola, but they don't have him signed to a contract. That means, to any team over the cap interested in signing him would have to commit a large portion of their MLE on him. Meanwhile, the Spurs have Bird rights on Bonner which means they (or anyone who trades for him) can re-sign him and still use their MLE on other players.

I pray that it won't be a decision between Scola and Bonner.
I agree that it will take the same type of money, probably Bonner will be a bit cheaper, but as you mentioned, Scola has much more upside.
Scola could be a decent starter at PF one day, something I can't see with Bonner.
if Spurs could sign Scola (for the mentioned 3 million/per year), they should not hesitate to do it.
then the money Bonner would cost, will be better invested in a SF. (if they had not already aquired a SF via trade during this season, what most of us hope).
jury is out on Bonner anyhow, till POs are played. if he doesn't make an impact in the PO, the Spurs won't try to resign him, even if he plays nice this season.

The edge of Bonner over Scola is that he is a shooter and that Spurs won't have a big who can shoot after Horry's retirement. Not having at all a big able to hit 3's in a team isn't a good thing in the modern nba.
As I said above, the biggest difference IMO between the two is being overlooked in both these posts, and it has to do with the fact that one of them is signed and can be had without eating into the MLE, while the other cannot. Other issues, while valid, are secondary considering the context.

Let's say that Spurs can trade Scola for the 35th pick of the 07 draft, I take Bonner + the pick over Scola.
That's an incomplete portrayal of the situation. A more accurate picture would be: Scola + whomever you can trade Bonner for VS Bonner + whomever you can trade Scola for + whomever you can sign for the MLE portion Scola would command. You might still pick the latter scenario, of course.

and both will ask for 3 years contracts or longer.
considering that Spurs will likely have a time shedule for bringing in Mahinmi 2008, they won't want to sign 2 PFs for 10 million contracts each.
as often, they will go for a veteran, who signs a 1 year minimum contract, to play the 3rd string PF. (PJ Brown?)
I don't think Scola would demand a contract larger than three years: it'd be against his financial interest. If he wants to play in the NBA (meaning he believes in himself enough to be willing to take chance over security), he'll surely be looking forward to an eventual payday. And, if he proves he belongs like he'd be betting on, then those numbers sound rather meager. Bonner, on the other hand, probably would: he's pretty much a known commodity, and I'm sure he'd be looking for financial security and stability.

But anyway, I think a key issue is being left out in this discussion: if the Spurs decided they wanted to stick with Bonner over Scola, then it's probably better to trade Scola's rights altogether. However, if they intended to sign Scola instead (given the past, it'd seem a really, really far fetched scenario), they should still try to sign Bonner if he proves valuable and would command a a reasonable contract... even if not to keep him. The importance of his value as an asset shouldn't be dismissed, when the Spurs are looking at a major reconstruction of their supporting cast in the next two offseasons, considering: Horry, Finley are likely to retire; Bruce isn't that far off and regardless I doubt the Spurs pick his option for next year at 4M; we have no backup SF or PG; Barry is 35 and has only one season beyond this one.

So, when you have to anticipate the need to fill that many roster spots in short time and you have as little means as the Spurs (one low first round pick each year plus usually short term worthless second rounders, 2 MLEs and a LLE), it makes sense to stockpile assets even if only for a trade in the near future.

wildbill2u

01-28-2007, 12:41 PM

This is the official NBA site for information about global players who are currently under contract to NBA teams.

http://www.nba.com/fedex/

Bruno

01-28-2007, 01:59 PM

Scola's trade value isn't necessarily higher than Bonner's. For one, people forget that the Spurs hold the rights to Scola, but they don't have him signed to a contract. That means, to any team over the cap interested in signing him would have to commit a large portion of their MLE on him.

It's a solid point but don't forget that Spurs have asked a first round pick + cash for Scola last summer. Obviously, it was too much (they haven't find a taker for Scola) but it's way higher than Bonner trade vlaue that should be around a second round pick. Even considering your point, I still think that Scola trade value is higher than Bonner's one.

Ariel

01-28-2007, 02:19 PM

It's a solid point but don't forget that Spurs have asked a first round pick + cash for Scola last summer. Obviously, it was too much (they haven't find a taker for Scola) but it's way higher than Bonner trade vlaue that should be around a second round pick. Even considering your point, I still think that Scola trade value is higher than Bonner's one.
The real value is set by what others are willing to pay, not by what you're asking for. It's been reported that about 4 teams were interested in signing Scola at his salary demands, yet none of them seemed to be willing to give up whatever it is the Spurs were asking for. It appears the FO's expectations may not be that consistent with market value. So, using those demands as measure of value may not be the best starting point to reach a valid conclusion.

Also, I think you're selling Bonner short. You'll forgive me if I'm reaching by making a -admittedly difficult to measure- comparison, but acknowledging they play different positions and all, I don't know that -other than Barry- we have a more capable backup than Bonner. Certainly not Beno or Vaughn or White, and at their present form, Finley or Horry either. So, provided he doesn't command much more than 3M a year, I don't know where we're going to find a better player than him for the price tag. And if his trade value is just a second rounder, then I'll throw in as many as needed to get a player of his caliber at every position we're sorely lacking.