Lakers pop weary Spurs: Cold shooters, bad attitudes lead to loss (MySA)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Lakers pop weary Spurs: Cold shooters, bad attitudes lead to loss

Web Posted: 01/18/2007 12:35 AM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News

Their season having reached a new low, the Spurs trudged off the AT&T Center floor Wednesday night with another loss, unable, among other things, to count to five, let alone beat a Los Angeles Lakers team missing two starters.

With Kobe Bryant scoring 34 points, more than a few of which he accumulated by pounding the ball over Tim Duncan's head, the Lakers held on for a 100-96 victory. The loss was the Spurs' seventh at home, equaling their total from last season.

The loss also once again raised questions about the direction of the team and the makeup of its roster. The Spurs looked tired at times, rudderless at others, committing 19 turnovers and missing 16 3-pointers — none of which approached the level of embarrassment as when the team took the court for the fourth quarter with only four players.

"Our attitude was not the best," Manu Ginobili said. "We were hanging our heads, feeling sorry for ourselves, getting upset with the refs.

"If we really want to make it to the end and be the team we usually are, we need to step up and play better — and more professional."

Hitting a few shots also would help. Tim Duncan scored 26 points and Tony Parker 25, but the Spurs made only 6 of 22 3-pointers. In Monday's loss in Chicago, they made 6 of 23.

"We've got a lot of guys who have shots who aren't taking them and taking some shots that are contested," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "We're just really out of whack as far as the shooting is concerned."


Bruce Bowen had his worst game of the season, missing all four of his 3-pointers and failing to slow Bryant until the closing minutes. He spent much of the evening carping at the officials for letting Bryant clear out space with his left forearm and also accepted blame for a technical the Spurs received when they opened the final quarter with only four players.

Popovich said he made just one substitution at the end of the third quarter, putting Duncan in the game. But Bowen evidently thought he was being replaced, and no one apparently told him otherwise, so he stayed on the bench.

The Spurs were 15 seconds into the possession when the officials noticed the error. The technical allowed the Lakers to tack another point onto their lead — a costly mistake because the game was close in the final seconds.

"There was no communication," Popovich said of the error.

Said Bowen: "It's my fault. Pop didn't sub me out, and that is that."

The Spurs canceled practice Tuesday, along with their game-day morning shootaround, because of the icy conditions that had shut down much of the city for two days. But with most of the highways opening Wednesday afternoon, the AT&T Center was filled almost to capacity, including a rather vocal group of Lakers supporters.

Vladimir Radmanovic's hot shooting allowed the Lakers to surge to a 10-point lead midway through the fourth quarter. Ginobili, who scored eight of his 16 points in the quarter, rallied the Spurs, giving them a 91-90 lead with 2:54 left.


But Bryant found Luke Walton cutting to the basket for a layup then hit a tough fadeaway himself. Duncan missed a couple of key free throws, and Parker threw away a pass when he thought Ginobili was cutting the opposite direction.

"I think we have to talk between us and start bringing the best of each of us," Ginobili said. "We know every team is good and trying to beat us, but we are just letting them get away with too much."

Bryant, who was in foul trouble early, scored 17 points in the second quarter while making 7 of 9 shots.

Bowen struggled to stay in front of Bryant, and he didn't have much help behind him. Even when one of the Spurs' big men tried to protect the rim, Bryant usually twisted around him and scored anyway.

Once in the third quarter, Bowen tried to herd Bryant to the baseline only to watch him elevate and dunk viciously in Duncan's face. A couple minutes later, Bryant dunked over Duncan again, this time flushing a lob pass from Smush Parker.

"It's just mental," Ginobili said. "We have to forget about all the things we're doing wrong and start from zero."

Provided, of course, they can count that high.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

i would love to see Manu chew EVERYONE out and become that locker room vocal leader

[Kori Ellis]

i would love to see Manu chew EVERYONE out and become that locker room vocal leader

:lol He'd have to chew himself out too. He was pretty invisible for quarters 1-3.

[Mr. Body]

"We've got a lot of guys who have shots who aren't taking them and taking some shots that are contested," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "We're just really out of whack as far as the shooting is concerned."

If that's what he thinks the problem is, we're in serious frickin' trouble.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:lol He'd have to chew himself out too. He was pretty invisible for quarters 1-3.

:lol

true true, but no one argue with the amount of heart/passion he plays with

at least he TRIES to win

[timvp]

Pop better not be warming up his "our shooters just didn't hit their shots and that's why we lost" speech for the playoffs. I back Pop about as much as anyone on this board, but he drives me AHF when he says that BS.

[VaSpursFan]

at least manu addresses the problem...wtf is pop talking about???

[Kori Ellis]

at least manu addresses the problem...wtf is pop talking about???

I don't know. The postgame quotes are weird. Pop talks about shooters not doing their job and then both Tony/Manu are asked about it and they both basically say ... no that's not any of the problem.

[Budkin]

Listen to the Pop Show tomorrow. I'll bet it'll drive us all even more insane.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"We've got a lot of guys who have shots who aren't taking them and taking some shots that are contested," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "We're just really out of whack as far as the shooting is concerned."

Son of a bitch. The guy just doesn't have a clue. Not a single fucking clue.

[andsoon]

:lol He'd have to chew himself out too. He was pretty invisible for quarters 1-3.
manu can not get the ball

[AFE7FATMAN]

Quote:
"We've got a lot of guys who have shots who aren't taking them and taking some shots that are contested," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "We're just really out of whack as far as the shooting is concerned."





If that's what he thinks the problem is, we're in serious frickin' trouble.

YEP the SPURS are in serious trouble and CIA Pop hasn't got a C L U E

[remingtonbo2001]

Quote:
"We've got a lot of guys who have shots who aren't taking them and taking some shots that are contested," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "We're just really out of whack as far as the shooting is concerned."






YEP the SPURS are in serious trouble and CIA Pop hasn't got a C L U E

No, not really. Our offensive issues are pretty simple. Our entire team, specifically our spot up shooters, seem out of sync. Our offense is not in rhythm. It usually runs like clockwork, precision passing, clear lane, open shots, ect. Teams are clogging the lane more often against the Spurs, thus forcing us to play half-court, which we used to be good at. I don't believe we're a half-court team, nor a transition team, we've lost a bit of identity. I believe manu is correct in saying the Spurs must start over. We all know where that starts for this team and that is on defense. I believe Pop tried to create a hybrid team, so to speak, or one that could adapt to any style of play. It kinda worked in 2005, but we still retained our identity. We need to go back to the basic. If we can do that, we'll find our way back.

[TDMVPDPOY]

they always say they wont complain, but it always happens

tim duncan :(

[Dre_7]

It looks like they just dont give a damn. It seems like they are just going through the motions. And then they get down and realize (late in the 4th) that they have to start playing, and by then its too late. That really bugs me. I hate that attitude cuz they have the talent to win, they just arent playing like it matters. They better pick it up cuz its pissing me off.

[WalterBenitez]

at least manu addresses the problem...wtf is pop talking about???
blamin' Beno? :oops

[AlamoSpursFan]

I still say I love it when we struggle during the regular season...

This team still has time to get its' collective shit together.

I'm not panicking.

[nkdlunch]

manu hit the nail, meanwhile Pop is thinking about drinking wine and relaxing at home. Fuck him.

that plus turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers.....

[Rick Von Braun]

:lol He'd have to chew himself out too. He was pretty invisible for quarters 1-3.

Do you agree he has to take more shots then? He took 6 shots in the first 3 quarters, going 3-6. He averages slightly above 10 per game.

In the first 3 quarters, he was 3-6 FG, 1-1 from 3PT, 1-2 FT, 1 OR, 4 DR, 5 RT, 2 AST, 4 TO in 22 minutes. His TO were higher than average, but can you say he was invisible?

Sometimes, I wish Pop would ask him to take 25 shots in one game.

[VaSpursFan]

Do you agree he has to take more shots then? He took 6 shots in the first 3 quarters, going 3-6. He averages slightly above 10 per game.

In the first 3 quarters, he was 3-6 FG, 1-1 from 3PT, 1-2 FT, 1 OR, 4 DR, 5 RT, 3 AST, 4 TO in 22 minutes. His TO were higher than average, but can you say he was invisible?

Sometimes, I wish Pop would ask him to take 25 shots in one game.

gino is falling in love with the 3. Gino would be super effective to me if he would start pump faking the 3 and taking a couple of dribbles in and taking the 15 to 17 footer. if he starts hitting those consistently he could then create lanes to get to the rim with ease. right now, it's either a 3 or a drive to the hop, he's very predictable right now. what i like about tony is he hits the J, he has the floater and he can finish at the basket. he gives defenses fits because they don't know what the hell he's going to do. manu needs that middle game to throw defense off a bit more.

[ploto]

You haven't been watching the Spurs much this season if you could not predict at halftime how the second half would go. Tony scored alot in the first half so he would disappear. Manu would come alive in the fourth quarter, and Tim would miss some free throws down the stretch. And Pop would play small ball at the end.

[Mr. Body]

What I loved were the mistimings and misreadings. Guys passing to no one. Guys passing the ball when they thought a guy was going to cut and sailing it out of bounds. They looked like the first week of a YMCA team.

[ploto]

What I loved were the mistimings and misreadings. Guys passing to no one. Guys passing the ball when they thought a guy was going to cut and sailing it out of bounds. They looked like the first week of a YMCA team.
I agree with the person who said it's time to go back to basics. What happened to the notion of good fundamentals and smart passes- crisp ball movement and good rotations.

[Rick Von Braun]

gino is falling in love with the 3.

I would try to put things in perspective, because sometimes the perceptions that people have of the game are erroneous.

Gino is taking a whooping 0.6 more threes per game than in previous years, hardly a "fall in love" statement.

2002-2003 2.15 3PT-attempts/game .345 3PT%
2003-2004 3.18 3PT-attempts/game .359 3PT%
2004-2005 3.49 3PT-attempts/game .376 3PT%
2005-2006 3.34 3PT-attempts/game .382 3PT%
2006-2007 3.97 3PT-attempts/game .424 3PT%


Gino would be super effective to me if he would start pump faking the 3 and taking a couple of dribbles in and taking the 15 to 17 footer.

Huh? First of all, Gino IS super effective in the role and minutes Pop decides to play him. Do you know that he ranks 12th in the league in PER (24.51) (http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm), and it is the third most efficient SG in the league behind Dwyne Wade and Kobe Bryant (he was ahead of Kobe until yesterday)?

Just for your reference Tim Dunan ranks 7th (25.70), Tony Parker ranks 26th (21.84), and Bruce Bowen ranks 182nd (8.27).

If you want to measure the differential productivity with opposing players, his PER differential (http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS.HTM) is one of the highest in the league, ranking first on the Spurs. His +/- numbers are also great, ranking 2nd on the Spurs behind Tim Duncan.


if he starts hitting those consistently he could then create lanes to get to the rim with ease. right now, it's either a 3 or a drive to the hop, he's very predictable right now. what i like about tony is he hits the J, he has the floater and he can finish at the basket. he gives defenses fits because they don't know what the hell he's going to do. manu needs that middle game to throw defense off a bit more.

Au contraire, the fact that he is a threat from downtown means that opposing players have to stay on his chest, which means easier opportunites for penetration. You do realize that a 33% 3PT shooter is equivalent to a 50% 2PT shooter, right? At the current clip, Gino shooting at .424% for 3PT is equivalent to .636% 2PT shooter, which is exceptional for the 15-17 ft range you suggest. Unless he becames the best 15-17 ft. jump shooter in the league, I would advice against your strategy, unless it is used sparingly to mix things up.

[VaSpursFan]

I would try to put things in perspective, because sometimes the perceptions that people have of the game are erroneous.

Gino is taking a whooping 0.6 more threes per game than in previous years, hardly a "fall in love" statement.

2002-2003 2.15 3PT-attempts/game .345 3PT%
2003-2004 3.18 3PT-attempts/game .359 3PT%
2004-2005 3.49 3PT-attempts/game .376 3PT%
2005-2006 3.34 3PT-attempts/game .382 3PT%
2006-2007 3.97 3PT-attempts/game .424 3PT%



Huh? First of all, Gino IS super effective in the role and minutes Pop decides to play him. Do you know that he ranks 12th in the league in PER (24.51) (http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm), and it is the third most efficient SG in the league behind Dwyne Wade and Kobe Bryant (he was ahead of Kobe until yesterday)?

Just for your reference Tim Dunan ranks 7th (25.70), Tony Parker ranks 26th (21.84), and Bruce Bowen ranks 182nd (8.27).

If you want to measure the differential productivity with opposing players, his PER differential (http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS.HTM) is one of the highest in the league, ranking first on the Spurs. His +/- numbers are also great, ranking 2nd on the Spurs behind Tim Duncan.



Au contraire, the fact that he is a threat from downtown means that opposing players have to stay on his chest, which means easier opportunites for penetration. You do realize that a 33% 3PT shooter is equivalent to a 50% 2PT shooter, right? At the current clip, Gino shooting at .424% for 3PT is equivalent to .636% 2PT shooter, which is exceptional for the 15-17 ft range you suggest. Unless he becames the best 15-17 ft. jump shooter in the league, I would advice against your strategy, unless it is used sparingly to mix things up.


wow...a bunch of stats here. great and all, but i have played organized basketball and i watch basketball games for the eye of a player.

gino is up .6 over the PRIOR year. but if you look at the trend from when he entered the league, he's up 1.82 3pt attempts per game and it's steadily risen almost every year in the league. to me, that screams falling in love with the 3. numbers don't lie and this substiantes my position.

i don't really care about the stats speak regarding his effficiency. all i know is that when you're on the court and you either shot the 3 or drive to the basket, defenses can guard you with relative ease because you're predicatable. and the argument about a 33% 3 point shooter is better than a 50% 2 point shooter is ludicrous. why would you not go with the shot with the better odds? i'll take the 50% option every time rather than go for the high risk/high reward 3. hell i would love if the team shot all layups because i know a high percentage of them would go in versus the whole team shooting fool's gold 3's.

all i want gino to do is to develop another dimension of his game to make him harder to guard and less predictable. let's keep this to basketball rather than regurgitate a bunch of stats talk that has no bearing on one's performance on a basketball court.

[Cherry]

i would love to see Manu chew EVERYONE out and become that locker room vocal leader

me too




Sometimes, I wish Pop would ask him to take 25 shots in one game.

It´s time IMO

[Tradition]

Phil Jackson has done wonders with this franchise and erased all doubts about him being the greatest coach in league history. Kobe has also been something else this year. This team is growing and gaining confidence in each other with odom and kwame both being out. The Spurs are still a force to respect in the west but a few moves wouldnt hurt. This is a damn good Laker squad who is going to be a bitch to eliminate come playoff time.

[Mr. Body]

Kupchak must be getting some accolades after some time of criticism for putting this roster together. Bynum was a great pick, and Farmar looks pretty good.

[Tradition]

Kupchak must be getting some accolades after some time of criticism for putting this roster together. Bynum was a great pick, and Farmar looks pretty good.

Kupchak has really redeemed himself as a nice gm to have on this squad. Bynum,Farmar,Turiaf,aquiring Maurice Evans, etc he has really made smart moves. I know the shaq trade landed Miami a title but for future reasons it was a smart move and it got us Odom and eventually got us Kwame. I do believe the Lakers will be back as an elite team VERY soon but this year I just dont see it. I do see us making noise in the playoffs and being quite tough to beat in a series though. Just want us to get healthy and begin to really gell.

[Medvedenko]

Yes, a great game...I'm happy we won. Still, the spurs are dangerous and beat themselves as much as get beat by the other team. Still though, I'm happy with the W. Kobe is playing injured and that's allright with me considering he's slowing the game down and picking his spots. Oh, and the crams on Duncan were sweet. Question, why doesn't Duncan play defense on these plays. He just stands there with his hands up, especially with the Turiaf nail....

[VaSpursFan]

Yes, a great game...I'm happy we won. Still, the spurs are dangerous and beat themselves as much as get beat by the other team. Still though, I'm happy with the W. Kobe is playing injured and that's allright with me considering he's slowing the game down and picking his spots. Oh, and the crams on Duncan were sweet. Question, why doesn't Duncan play defense on these plays. He just stands there with his hands up, especially with the Turiaf nail....

he doesn't want to foul...but how many times do you get crammed on before you say eff it, i'm gonna put the next person that comes in this lane on their back. truth told, since lebron posterized duncan earlier this season, he's been getting flushed on left and right.

[Sportcamper]

Ronny Turiaf had the play of the game Wednesday at AT&T Center, a six-foot jump hook over his Childhood NBA idol, Tim Duncan, that put the Lakers ahead, 98-93, with 9.9 seconds left...

"Tim Duncan's my idol," Turiaf said, “I just saw him play so many times on TV and stuff, when I was just a little kid... For me to be able to go out there and score over him “even though he is older now”, was kind of special...

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-01/27430909.jpg

[nkdlunch]

yes Duncan should go for the hard foul once in a while.

When is the last time he has had 5 fouls????

[Medvedenko]

What's worse, getting dunked on while standing looking quite apathetic, or getting dunked on trying to challenge the shot.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Phil Jackson has done wonders with this franchise and erased all doubts about him being the greatest coach in league history. Kobe has also been something else this year. This team is growing and gaining confidence in each other with odom and kwame both being out. The Spurs are still a force to respect in the west but a few moves wouldnt hurt. This is a damn good Laker squad who is going to be a bitch to eliminate come playoff time.

I don't know if the Lakers playing well less than halfway thorugh the season proves Phil Jackson is the "greatest coach in league history". I'd think you'd point to nine championships if you're going to be making that argument.

I still think the Lakers are in the lower half of the West. They could get past the first round though. Probably good enough to win the East.

[SoCal Lakeshow]

For me to be able to go out there and score over him “even though he is older now”, was kind of special...

:rollin :rollin

[Tradition]

I don't know if the Lakers playing well less than halfway thorugh the season proves Phil Jackson is the "greatest coach in league history". I'd think you'd point to nine championships if you're going to be making that argument.

I still think the Lakers are in the lower half of the West. They could get past the first round though. Probably good enough to win the East.

Look at how much this team has dramatically improved over the last year and a half. They went from average to getting on the verge of being a major force again.

[judaspriestess]

Spurs are playing very soft. Charmin soft. Maybe tinkering with the lineup all the time is tinkering with their energy.

[JPB]

[QUOTE=Sportcamper]
"Tim Duncan's my idol," Turiaf said, “I just saw him play so many times on TV and stuff, when I was just a little kid... For me to be able to go out there and score over him “even though he is older now”, was kind of special...

A little kid :( ... Turiaf is 24. Duncan is just 6 years older than him.

[spurschick]

It's time for a team :meeting: :clap

[JPB]

It's time for a team :meeting: :clap

Yes, this or that :

:madrun :cuss :frying: :fight

[wildbill2u]

Son of a bitch. The guy just doesn't have a clue. Not a single fucking clue.
So what is going to say? "Our defensive stalwarts didn't come through. Tim Duncan mailed this one in on defense. He got his points, but with only 2 fouls in the 4th gave up numerous uncontested shots and even fell asleep in the paint, leaving a wide-open man behind him.

And Bruce was terrible shooting and his failure to be on the court was simply a terrible lapse of focus that he normally doesnt have.

16 turnovers with 14 coming from the BIG THREE don't help either."

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Manu summed up the problems perfectly. Meanwhile, Pop is trumpeting out the latest talking point to his lap dog SA media.

[itzsoweezee]

this guy's an idiot. bowen played good defense on kobe, especially in the fourth. kobe was just making ridiculous shots early in the game.

[Rick Von Braun]

wow...a bunch of stats here. great and all, but i have played organized basketball and i watch basketball games for the eye of a player.

gino is up .6 over the PRIOR year. but if you look at the trend from when he entered the league, he's up 1.82 3pt attempts per game and it's steadily risen almost every year in the league. to me, that screams falling in love with the 3. numbers don't lie and this substiantes my position.

Your are correct, numbers don't lie, your understanding and interpretation of them is wrong though. The 1.82 increase from his first year is easily explainable by the reduced playing time in his first year. If you normalize the numbers by playing time and you get:

06-07 0.14 3PTatt/min .424 3PT%
05-06 0.12 3PTatt/min .382 3PT%
04-05 0.12 3PTatt/min .376 3PT%
03-04 0.11 3PTatt/min .359 3PT%
02-03 0.10 3PTatt/min .345 3PT%

A consistent small increase, but hardly a jump or "falling in love" increase. Perhaphs more importantly, with his higher shooting percentage, I fail to understand why you don't want him to shoot more threes. He will produce more points with less possesions... isn't this the ideal?


i don't really care about the stats speak regarding his effficiency.

So, why bring the effective argument in the first place in your original post?


Gino would be super effective to me if he would start pump faking the 3 and taking a couple of dribbles in and taking the 15 to 17 footer.

The above are your comments.


all i know is that when you're on the court and you either shot the 3 or drive to the basket, defenses can guard you with relative ease because you're predicatable.

Count how many players in the league combine the 3PT shooting percentage and the ability to finish at the rim or earn a trip to the charity stripe that Manu Ginobili has? You would be very surprised. He is a fucking nightmare for opposing coaches.


and the argument about a 33% 3 point shooter is better than a 50% 2 point shooter is ludicrous. why would you not go with the shot with the better odds? i'll take the 50% option every time rather than go for the high risk/high reward 3. hell i would love if the team shot all layups because i know a high percentage of them would go in versus the whole team shooting fool's gold 3's.

I see, so you would rather take a 50% chance of a 2PT vs a 40% chance of a 3PT all the time, because it is still a higher percentage shot, right? If you answer yes, I am glad you are not running the team.

What you fail to understand, is that .424 3PT% shooter is always a good option. Manu is 13th in the league in 3PT%. Please count how many players in the league (that qualify) shoot above 62% 2PT... I'll give you hint... zero.

For someone that praises himself as a basketball player, with a good "feeling" for the game, you fail to understand some basic notions of the game. If the opposing team is clogging the lanes (as in playoff basketball), what do you do? There are two ways to break this in the half court:

- ball movement
- exterior shooting

You are new to this board, but I've been firmly entrenched in the camp of ball movement with purpose since the Lakers swept the Spurs in the WCF back in 2001, specially after the 4th quarters' debacles that year. You will find no argument with me there. Pop has been reluctant to do this, and only after PJ joined the team, we have seen a little bit more of movement.

In Pop's mind, exterior shooting is the only option remaining. Talk to the coach.


all i want gino to do is to develop another dimension of his game to make him harder to guard and less predictable.

Yes, we all want all the Spurs' players to do better. I wish Gino could grab more rebounds, be stronger physically, could jump higher, reduce the number of turnovers, etc. etc. My point is that Manu Ginobili is the least of the Spurs problems at this time.

Perhaphs more importantly, although I cannot provide you with the source of the data (NDA), Manu has a significant statistical increase in the 10-18ft jumpers taken this year. I believe this is done on purpose and it is an intentional decision by both the Spurs coaching staff and Manu to make him more durable. By simply watching the Spurs' game this year in comparison to previous year, you'll see this increase quite clearly. The results of this change have been neutral to slightly negative, but more data (time) is required.

Don't worry, Manu is doing already exactly what you propose, albeit probably at a lesser pace that you want.


let's keep this to basketball rather than regurgitate a bunch of stats talk that has no bearing on one's performance on a basketball court.

You may not like stats, but every single professional NBA basketball team uses them heavily, with increase usage in recent years as we get better data. I urge you to trust me on this, I know many collegues that work or consult for NBA teams.

[SoCal Lakeshow]

this guy's an idiot. bowen played good defense on kobe, especially in the fourth. kobe was just making ridiculous shots early in the game.
Kobe was going to the basket at will.