Recent personel decisions have hurt this team?

[2centsworth]

Should RC be fired or is it totally on the Owners Cheapness? Tony Parker was the last really good personel decision this team has made. It's been 3 years of Jerry Jones like decisions.


Examples:

1. 2003 Draft- Don't Draft Josh Howard, but instead draft Leandro Barbosa. Trade Barbosa to the Suns for a #1.

2. 2004- Udonis Haslem is on the summer team for the second straight year and is now tearing it up. Spurs let him go for nothing and the guy is putting up very good numbers for the Heat.

3. 2005- Let go Devin Brown for nothing when he would be the best swing player on the bench now.

4. Today- Spurs have a bunch of old way past their prime FA which bring back images of Terry Porter.

5. Luis Scola Debacle- Worst Trade in Spur's History

6. Tiago Splitter Waste

7. Lack of a productive pick in many years

8. Noccionni Birth Date mess
Spurs have got to bring in youth and athleticism just like they did when they brought in Tony and Manu.

[yavozerb]

2003- champions
2004- western finals
2005- champions again
2006- rather not talk about it
2007- 30-13 so far
Another stupid thread posted!!

[2centsworth]

2003- champions
2004- western finals
2005- champions again
2006- rather not talk about it
2007- 30-13 so far
Another stupid thread posted!!
bad personel decison typically don't have an immediate impact. Team usually slowly decline and have moderate success because of the good decison of the past.

But if you prefer to be simple minded sobeit.

[johnpaulwall21]

2003- champions
2004- western finals
2005- champions again
2006- rather not talk about it
2007- 30-13 so far
Another stupid thread posted!!

-TIM DUNCAN

[yavozerb]

bad personel decison typically don't have an immediate impact. Team usually slowly decline and have moderate success because of the good decison of the past.

But if you prefer to be simple minded sobeit.
I will stay simple minded and stay away from posting stupid threads and you, you do what you do best and post stupid threads!!

[Mr. Body]

Getting Nocioni's birthdate wrong, missing the chance to draft him.

Letting Raja Bell go.

Some are unfortunate. We got Bowen after years of development... Haslem and Bell weren't ready yet.

But what kills is blowing the draft of Howard and not drafting Nocioni. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

[2centsworth]

Getting Nocioni's birthdate wrong, missing the chance to draft him.

Letting Raja Bell go.

Some are unfortunate. We got Bowen after years of development... Haslem and Bell weren't ready yet.

But what kills is blowing the draft of Howard and not drafting Nocioni. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.
Haslem was ready that year. He played well for the Heat that year. Raja was a long time ago. I'm mostly talking last 3-4 years. Nocioni is huge.

[objective]

2003- champions
2004- western finals
2005- champions again
2006- rather not talk about it
2007- 30-13 so far
Another stupid thread posted!!

2004 western finals was the Lakers vs. the Timberwolves

[yavozerb]

2004 western finals was the Lakers vs. the Timberwolves
Thanks..

[SPURS vs NBA media]

Should RC be fired or is it totally on the Owners Cheapness? Tony Parker was the last really good personel decision this team has made. It's been 3 years of Jerry Jones like decisions.


Examples:

1. 2003 Draft- Don't Draft Josh Howard, but instead draft Leandro Barbosa. Trade Barbosa to the Suns for a #1.

2. 2004- Udonis Haslem is on the summer team for the second straight year and is now tearing it up. Spurs let him go for nothing and the guy is putting up very good numbers for the Heat.

3. 2005- Let go Devin Brown for nothing when he would be the best swing player on the bench now.

4. Today- Spurs have a bunch of old way past their prime FA which bring back images of Terry Porter.


Spurs have got to bring in youth and athleticism just like they did when they brought in Tony and Manu.


another loser thread

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Don't kid yourselves. Everything RC does is signed off on by Pop. RC just does the paperwork and hangs out in Europe to scout.

[T Park]

Don't kid yourselves. Everything RC does is signed off on by Pop. RC just does the paperwork and hangs out in Europe to scout.


So Kori is wrong when she says

Pop and Duncan wanted Josh Howard and RC didn't?

[Jimcs50]

Don't kid yourselves. Everything RC does is signed off on by Pop. RC just does the paperwork and hangs out in Europe to scout.

Yes, Pop should be fired, first and foremost.

[Kori Ellis]

Don't kid yourselves. Everything RC does is signed off on by Pop. RC just does the paperwork and hangs out in Europe to scout.

You are an idiot sometimes.

POP WANTED JOSH HOWARD. Badly. RC didn't want him. And eventually RC's decision ruled.

RC oversaw the scout who messed up on Nocioni's birthdate - Not Pop.

I know you sit around jacking off all day thinking of how bad Pop is. But really, STFU about this. Some stuff is RC's decision.

[joeyjfive]

Man I would love to have Leandro Barbosa at the back up point guard, instead we got stuck with Beno.

[SequSpur]

So Kori is wrong when she says

Pop and Duncan wanted Josh Howard and RC didn't?

WTF? The Spurs probably didn't even look at him since he wasn't applying for Immigration Status....

WTF are you all talking about?

The Spurs trade their picks.. they haven't kept shit in years.

[SequSpur]

You are an idiot sometimes.

POP WANTED JOSH HOWARD. Badly. RC didn't want him. And eventually RC's decision ruled.

RC oversaw the scout who messed up on Nocioni's birthdate - Not Pop.

I know you sit around jacking off all day thinking of how bad Pop is. But really, STFU about this. Some stuff is RC's decision.

umm... really... and you confirmed this how?

[joeyjfive]

You are an idiot sometimes.

POP WANTED JOSH HOWARD. Badly. RC didn't want him. And eventually RC's decision ruled.

RC oversaw the scout who messed up on Nocioni's birthdate - Not Pop.

I know you sit around jacking off all day thinking of how bad Pop is. But really, STFU about this. Some stuff is RC's decision.



Damn, I didnt know this, I also wanted to draft Josh Howard but was unsure what position he would play. I didnt know Pop wanted him on the team, I just thought the spurs didnt think anything of him. Pretty big mistake.

[itzsoweezee]

signing jackie butler instead of reggie evans or several other free agents or even scola

not picking up devin brown

passing on corey maggette when he was available

[Kori Ellis]

umm... really... and you confirmed this how?

Umm ... Public knowledge.

Josh Howard went to Wake. Duncan and Pop lobbied for him - RC didn't want him.

[SequSpur]

So now, it's RC fault?

Now I believe ownership has alot to do with the Spurs being cap friendly, but please refresh my memory as to how Josh Howard was passed up because RC said so.

[Kori Ellis]

So now, it's RC fault?

Now I believe ownership has alot to do with the Spurs being cap friendly, but please refresh my memory as to how Josh Howard was passed up because RC said so.

Because he thought other players were better. So the Spurs passed on him.

[SequSpur]

Umm ... Public knowledge.

Josh Howard went to Wake. Duncan and Pop lobbied for him - RC didn't want him.

Well at the time, they probably didn't need him because Allstar Manu was here and they had SJax, Barry, Hedo, Parker, etc. etc...

So I can understand that....

After all, no one knew that he would be this good... hell, maybe Avery's system makes him successful... If he was here, he would be told to be a role player and pass it to Bonner for the game winner... WTF

[ALVAREZ6]

Howard, Haslem, Nocioni, Scola...the Spurs suck.

[SequSpur]

Howard or Manu? Don't they play the same position?

[Big Shot Rob]

For what its worth--

The highly recognized and esteemed Spurs FO has taken a backseat lately.

[2centsworth]

Howard, Haslem, Nocioni, Scola...the Spurs suck.
they far from suck but they haven't been themselves in the personel department over the past few years.

[Dalhoop]

I think that the jury is still out on this one. I saw a few months ago that the Spurs salery situation will clear up dramaticaly in a year or two (I think that I saw only the big three under contract past that)

If I am mistaken then ignore this post, but if I'm right, then the moves could pay off big time in a few years as the Spur make another run with all that cap room to spend on free agents. (This assumes that the management will sign the right players at the right time)

[objective]

There were stories that I remember during Howard's rookie year or next year that spoke of how Duncan liked him. The Pop angle is a recent addition to the mythos.

An example, from a Buck Harvey column in May 2006 (but the Duncan angle had existed for a couple of years):




...

Howard seemingly did everything well. Pro scouts liked the 6-foot-7 package, though most saw Howard falling toward the bottom of the LeBron-Carmelo-Wade first round. Several mock drafts, coincidentally, predicted the Spurs would take him.

"Howard is a versatile scorer at small forward," a West Coast newspaper wrote then, "who could complement defensive specialist Bruce Bowen."

The Spurs understood as much. But the two prospects who intrigued them more were Boris Diaw, Tony Parker's buddy who stars now for Phoenix, and Ndudi Ebi, a high-school project out of Houston who has since failed.

Howard? The Spurs were less fixated on him than they were creating cap room to sign Jason Kidd. Howard still earns less than a million dollars, making him the kind of bargain that Parker and Manu Ginobili once were. But unsure what the salary cap would be that summer, the Spurs wanted to free every dollar for Kidd.

In hindsight, the Kidd plan was as erroneous as the Spurs' analysis of Howard. They saw Howard as a slasher, and they already had one in Ginobili. Didn't they really need shooters to spread the floor for Duncan?

Even after coming up with a find with the 28th selection just two years before (Parker), they still didn't like the odds with another No.28. When Diaw and Ebi went off the board, the Spurs traded that first-round choice to the Suns for one in the future.

Gregg Popovich signed off on it with only one reservation. He knew Duncan liked Howard.

Then Dallas, drafting next, took Howard, and Popovich quickly second-guessed everything. Having just edged the Mavericks in the Western Conference finals, had the Spurs helped their rivals?

...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/bharvey/stories/MYSA050906.1D.COL.BKNharvey.spurs.1258ad56.html



So until recently the official story from the Spurs mouthpieces in the Express News had always been just about how much Duncan liked him.

[SequSpur]

I just don't understand how you go from the practice of getting veterans who are so hungry for a championship to players like Elson, Bonner, Vaughn, Butler, Barry, Finley, Beno, etc.... These guys are/were proven losers on previous teams.
Some of them couldn't get minutes on lottery teams.... WTF?

[Dalhoop]

There is a fine line between "hungry" for a championship and "wanting" a championship. The Spurs have been signing the later and not the former

[objective]

I should add:

After the Mavs moved on and were in the Finals, then Harvey had a story that changed: it wasn't just Duncan's reservations that caused Pop pause . . . now Pop wanted him!


the Spurs also passed on a player who both Popovich and Duncan liked.

Howard.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA060305.1D.COL.BKNharvey.2d75f4fa2.html

[Dalhoop]

For Finley it was a situation of "I put in my time, Now I want a ring" when it should be "I put in my time, Now I'm ready to work toward a ring"

Those players are still waiting around for Duncan to bring their ring to them. It is the Coaches/GMs job to find these players and remove them from the team as quickly as possable. If they are kept for too long, their attitude of "Bring the ring to me" instead of "I will work toward the ring" start to seep into the rest of the team.

[pad300]

Should RC be fired or is it totally on the Owners Cheapness? Tony Parker was the last really good personel decision this team has made. It's been 3 years of Jerry Jones like decisions.


Examples:

1. 2003 Draft- Don't Draft Josh Howard, but instead draft Leandro Barbosa. Trade Barbosa to the Suns for a #1.

2. 2004- Udonis Haslem is on the summer team for the second straight year and is now tearing it up. Spurs let him go for nothing and the guy is putting up very good numbers for the Heat.

3. 2005- Let go Devin Brown for nothing when he would be the best swing player on the bench now.

4. Today- Spurs have a bunch of old way past their prime FA which bring back images of Terry Porter.


Spurs have got to bring in youth and athleticism just like they did when they brought in Tony and Manu.

Of course personnel decision have hurt this franchise in the last few years. But name a franchise that doesn't apply to. Pheonix has made bad personnel & draft decisions, so has Dallas. No franchise makes perfect personnel decisions. While I would have made some different decisions, I can't say that they would have 100% certain worked out better - eg. rather than sign Oberto, I would have signed Steven Hunter for his mobility and shot blocking and being able to play big 1/2 of each game might have won us the series last year, while Oberto sat on the bench. On the other hand, Hunter might have got himself benched even harder than Rasho did against Dallas...

[Agloco]

All of the bad decisions can be rectified by bringing in Gilbert Arenas.......

"My swagger is so phenomenal" :hat

[ShoogarBear]

I think the moral of the story is, given a Once-In-A-Lifetime Franchise Player, you don't need to get all the other personnel decisions right to be successful, just a few.

The question is given the Franchise Player, how often do you need to hit upon a sucessful infusion of young talent? Once a year? Once every 2-3 years?

Here are the year-by-year "significant" acquisitions by the Spurs in the Tim Duncan era. *=player 25 or younger, ()= did not win (or has not yet won) a ring with the Spurs.

98 Tim Duncan*, Malik Rose*, Jaren Jackson
99 Antonio Daniels*, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Jerome Kersey
00 (Samaki Walker*), (Terry Porter),
01 (Derek Anderson*), Danny Ferry
02 Tony Parker*, Stephen Jackson*, Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith
03 Emmanuel Ginobili*, Speedy Claxton*, Devin Brown*, Kevin Willis, Steve Kerr
04 (Hidayet Turkoglu*), Radoslav Nesterovic, Robert Horry "Missed out on": Barbosa*, Howard*
05 Beno Udrih*, Nazr Mohammad, Brent Barry "Missed out on": Nocioni*
06 (Michael Finley), (Nick Van Exel), (Fabricio Oberto)
07 (Jackie Butler*), (Francisco Elson), (Matt Bonner)

You can see that from 1998 until 2004, the Spurs were pretty much on a roll. Every year they picked up at least one under-25 player of reasonable quality who at least played significant minutes. And of course were able to supplement them with a solid veteran, but I would argue that the bulk of the heavy lifting was done by the young guys and not the veteran FA pickups.

However, given the so-far negative trend in Beno and the question marks about Butler (and the fact that Hedo didn't pan out), the Spurs have no significant young talent additions since Manu. And it's interesting to note that eveyone perceptions on the players they "missed out on" coincides exactly with that time.

The jury's still out on Scola, Mahinmi, and Javtokas but it's extremely doubtful any of them will turn out to be near the quality of Barbosa, Howard, and Nocioni.

So did the Spurs just have a lucky streak that was bound to come to an end, have they just gotten worse in their ability to draft young talent, or has the competition just caught up with them?

[Horry For 3!]

I think the moral of the story is, given a Once-In-A-Lifetime Franchise Player, you don't need to get all the other personnel decisions right to be successful, just a few.

The question is given the Franchise Player, how often do you need to hit upon a sucessful infusion of young talent? Once a year? Once every 2-3 years?

Here are the year-by-year "significant" acquisitions by the Spurs in the Tim Duncan era. *=player 25 or younger, ()= did not win (or has not yet won) a ring with the Spurs.

98 Tim Duncan*, Malik Rose*, Jaren Jackson
99 Antonio Daniels*, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Jerome Kersey
00 (Samaki Walker*), (Terry Porter),
01 (Derek Anderson*), Danny Ferry
02 Tony Parker*, Stephen Jackson*, Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith
03 Emmanuel Ginobili*, Speedy Claxton*, Devin Brown*, Kevin Willis, Steve Kerr
04 (Hidayet Turkoglu*), Radoslav Nesterovic, Robert Horry "Missed out on": Barbosa*, Howard*
05 Beno Udrih*, Nazr Mohammad, Brent Barry "Missed out on": Nocioni*
06 (Michael Finley), (Nick Van Exel), (Fabricio Oberto)
07 (Jackie Butler*), (Francisco Elson), (Matt Bonner)

You can see that from 1998 until 2004, the Spurs were pretty much on a roll. Every year they picked up at least one under-25 player of reasonable quality who at least played significant minutes. And of course were able to supplement them with a solid veteran, but I would argue that the bulk of the heavy lifting was done by the young guys and not the veteran FA pickups.

However, given the so-far negative trend in Beno and the question marks about Butler (and the fact that Hedo didn't pan out), the Spurs have no significant young talent additions since Manu. And it's interesting to note that eveyone perceptions on the players they "missed out on" coincides exactly with that time.

The jury's still out on Scola, Mahinmi, and Javtokas but it's extremely doubtful any of them will turn out to be near the quality of Barbosa, Howard, and Nocioni.

So did the Spurs just have a lucky streak that was bound to come to an end, have they just gotten worse in their ability to draft young talent, or has the competition just caught up with them?
I think everyone has caught up to them in drafting.

[2centsworth]

I think everyone has caught up to them in drafting.
How does not drafting Howard and then trading Barbosa mean everyone else has caught up?

[SenorSpur]

There's no question the decision that has hurt this team the most is not drafting Josh Howard in 2003. I remember salivating in front of the T.V because there's no way I ever imagined he'd fall the the Spurs. Of course I ended up screaming at the T.V when they passed over him and traded out of the round. I admit, I didn't even expect him to be as good as he's been.

However reading that old Buck Harvy column, several things stick out that make me absolutely want to puke:

Howard? The Spurs were less fixated on him than they were creating cap room to sign Jason Kidd. Howard still earns less than a million dollars, making him the kind of bargain that Parker and Manu Ginobili once were. But unsure what the salary cap would be that summer, the Spurs wanted to free every dollar for Kidd.

I said it at the time it was discussed extensively in this forum and I'll say it again. The Jason Kidd thing was the 2nd dumbest decision this FO ever made (passing on Howard being the dumbest). It was dumb for the following reasons.

(1)Kidd's contract alone (rivaling Duncan's - 90 mil) would have been an albatross over this franchise's salary structure that would have been 10 times worse than Rasho and Malik's respective contracts.

(2) New Jersey (and any other competent team) was not going to simply let Kidd walk without some measure of compensation - even though he was an unrestricted FA. Jersey most assuredly would have worked out a sign and trade. The potential price to pay to obtain Kidd would have meant parting with either Manu or Tony - not smart.

(3) Fresh off their 2nd championship, Parker was clearly on a rapid development track - as we have seen. Kidd, on the other hand, while still a superstar PG, had peaked. Also, Kidd still isn't a good outside shooter.

In hindsight, the Kidd plan was as erroneous as the Spurs' analysis of Howard. They saw Howard as a slasher, and they already had one in Ginobili. Didn't they really need shooters to spread the floor for Duncan?

Duh! You mean the league will only allow 1 slasher per team? Get real! For the past four years they've surrounded Duncan with nothing but shooters (Steve Smith, Turkeylog, Barry, Finley, Bonner). Good job! However after winning the title, the Spurs had just lost SJax to ATL. Howard would have been the perfect fill-in complement to replace Jax's skill set. Need further evidence? They've been looking for an athletic swingman since Jax left. And by drafting him at the bottom of the round, Howard was cheap.

Even after coming up with a find with the 28th selection just two years before (Parker), they still didn't like the odds with another No.28.

Bullshit! They didn't like their odds at 28? However, they would rather seek to build a northern version of the Argentine Olympic team. They already had taken the best Argentine player (Ginobili). There were less odds that another player taken from that same team would be half as good as him. Yet they kept going back to the crap table over and over again (Oberto, Scola). The well is dry already!

Sorry folks, but R.C. screwed the franchise on this one. He is a flat-out dumb-ass. Passing on Howard in the '03 draft, allowing the Mavs to select him one pick later and the fact that the Spurs have desparately needed, and still DO NOT have such a skill set on this team, makes it the dumbest personnel move in the history of the Spurs franchise and they are paying for it every day of every season.

As far as I'm concerned, the pendulum started to swing from that point on.

[exstatic]

Dude, that whole article was posted already. Congrats.

[VaSpursFan]

Howard or Manu? Don't they play the same position?

manu is 2 and j. howard plays 3 on the mavs. he would have been the perfect bowen replacement.

[johnpaulwall21]

as of right now i would rather have howard.

[Marcus Bryant]

How about giving up two #1s for a rental of Nazr Mohammed? That was brilliant.

Anyways, the could've been drafted game is always fun. But what is really killing this team has been the excessive focus on avoiding long term deals for the supporting cast. What are they waiting for? Cap room when TD is 57 years old? The fear of the luxury tax has hamstrung the replenishment of that cast, sans RC's or whoever's draft foibles.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sorry Kori. I remember it being Duncan lobbying Pop and RC, but they chose to go after their Jason Kidd pipe dream (both of them).

Someone already beat me to posting the article, but this Pop and Tim vs. RC thing is a bit of the usual revisionist hometown spin on how the Spurs fucked up on not drafting Howard.

And while I'm critical of Pop's deficiencies as a coach and his maddening inability to adjust, I have a lot faith in Pop running a good front office. That said, it's clear that he and RC both fucked up the Josh Howard decision.


PS - Not sure what I did to piss you off there, whatever it was sorry :lol

[rascal]

How about giving up two #1s for a rental of Nazr Mohammed? That was brilliant.

Anyways, the could've been drafted game is always fun. But what is really killing this team has been the excessive focus on avoiding long term deals for the supporting cast. What are they waiting for? Cap room when TD is 57 years old? The fear of the luxury tax has hamstrung the replenishment of that cast, sans RC's or whoever's draft foibles.

Finally people are seeing what I saw coming for a few years. The spurs cannot just ride Duncan anymore without adding youth and athleticism around him.

No FO makes all the right decisions on every player but the lack of trades the spurs have pulled off as compared to other teams shows this FO is weak in improving the team with trades as compared to other teams. Trades are one of the best ways to improve a team and the spurs do almost nothing or get projects or one year rentals.

The spurs are not as good as other team's front offices in the trade market or even with free agent acquisitions.

Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Miami and Phoenix without the benefit of a cornerstone, number 1, franchise player and nba great like Duncan (who anyone on this board would have taken with the first pick)have turned around weak teams with agressive trades. Compare the players those teams have gotten and compare that with what the spurs have gotten with trades and it isn't even close.

[T Park]

christ, now you jackasses have done it..

You brought this sourpussed ahole out.

[T Park]

Who BTW, would've traded Ginobili for Vince Carter.

Enough said.

[rascal]

Don't forget some of the weak players the spurs have gotten like Steve Smith or doing nothing for fear of perserving the cap space for 3 years and ending up with Rasho as the big free agent signing. Or getting players that only last a year in the system like Nazr or Derek Anderson, or Claxton. Showing no interest in getting good players in the league while they were practically being given away for nothing more than expiring contracts.

[rascal]

Carter > Manu

[T Park]

Carter > Manu

name me the last time Carter won a huge playoff game against a tough defensive team like the Pistons?

Oh yeah you can't, becuase hes such a huge pussy.

Get over it.

[johnpaulwall21]

rascal watch out cause all the manumaniacs are about to attack u

[T Park]

smooch

trolls are cute :)

[Budkin]

Carter is way better than Manure..

Asshole

Nobody likes you dumb fuck

Carter is better at dunking than Manu, and that is about it.

[bigfundamental21]

What's in the past is in the past. A lot of teams could say we should have drafted this guy or that guy. It's a game of chance. The bottom line is that we have had a very good team over the last decade with three championships. How many other teams can say the same? Not many. This season is not even half over..don't count out our Spurs.

[rascal]

name me the last time Carter won a huge playoff game against a tough defensive team like the Pistons?

Oh yeah you can't, becuase hes such a huge pussy.

Get over it.
Don't compare team success with individule player success. They are not the same. You look stupid saying one player is better because his team won. Carter never had Duncan.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Carter > Manu

You're dumb.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Don't compare team success with individule player success. They are not the same. You look stupid saying one player is better because his team won. Carter never had Duncan.

Yeah, I know that I'd much rather see a guy throw down some bitchin' dunks against the Atlanta Hawks than throw down some threes in the NBA Finals to win a championship.

Are you really this fucking stupid?

[rascal]

You're dumb.
No you are. Only a spur fan will say that Manu > Carter.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

No you are. Only a spur fan will say that Manu > Carter.

Or someone who values NBA titles more than dunk contest titles. The sad thing is Manu has more rings than Carter has dunk titles, yet you still suck his dick like some pussy ass wannabe.

Go beat off to your And 1 Mix Tape, dumbass.

[rascal]

Yeah, I know that I'd much rather see a guy throw down some bitchin' dunks against the Atlanta Hawks than throw down some threes in the NBA Finals to win a championship.

Are you really this fucking stupid?

Carter has had the better overall career(better stats more all star appearances but he will win lesss titles because he was not fortunate to have a player like Duncan) and will end up having the better career when they are both finished. By your logic Karl malone and Barkley are not as good as Manu either.

Don't forget Manu choked away two playoff losses last year that cost the spurs against Dallas.

[timvp]

As long as people are complaining, you might as well throw the name David Lee out there. Lee is averaging 11 points and 11 rebounds in only 30 minutes a game ... and just keeps getting better and better. The Spurs traded Malik Rose, the pick that became David Lee, another first round pick and $3M for Nazr Mohammed.

If the Spurs had David Lee, they'd easily win the championship. He's a guy who can rebound but is also agile enough to play against smaller players.



P.S.

And for those saying that Pop always has the last call on personel decisions, don't forget about the Raja Bell case. Pop wanted the Spurs to keep Bell. RC wanted the Spurs to keep Derrick Dial.

:pctoss

[timvp]

Another thing that slowed the Spurs acquisition of a talented young player over the last couple years was messing around with Melvin Sanders. I told people Sanders was a scrub when the Spurs first invited him to summer league two years ago. He wasn't and never will be an NBA quality player.

That'd didn't stop the Spurs from wasting two years on him and giving him the spot in summer league and on the NBA roster that could have gone to someone with actual potential.

[ploto]

I think if you look at that list posted, the most obvious point is that in the past 4 years the Spurs have only added one player who they actually drafted- Beno. The Spurs chose to trade away draft picks in the first round because of fianancial purposes- not just to save money for Kidd, but also to trade Malik,... I also happen to believe- and few will agree- that they should have done something different in the draft in 2005. Regardless of whether or not Ian becomes a stud, the Spurs could have drafted him in the second round. I think there is no real debate on that. They could have found a way to get a second round pick (it's not that hard) and use it on him and use their first round pick for immediate help. The Spurs did not want to use a first round pick for immediate help because that person would have signed a contract that year. They again wanted to save salary. Instead, they also assured themselves of not having to deal with the whole Scola/Javtokas contract negotiation saga again as Ian's salary is locked in at cheap whenever he comes to the NBA. The Spurs get him cheap for 2 years to test out- and then if he works out well, they get him 2 more years cheap. If he is a bust, well, they only spent a little in salary on him. I believe instead they should have been willing to invest less than a million dollars in a young player who could join the team last year.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Carter has had the better overall career(better stats more all star appearances but he will win lesss titles because he was not fortunate to have a player like Duncan) and will end up having the better career when they are both finished. By your logic Karl malone and Barkley are not as good as Manu either.

Don't forget Manu choked away two playoff losses last year that cost the spurs against Dallas.

Carter has had multiple pairings with other All-Star level players. Weak excuse, from a weak poster. My God, he plays on a damn team with Kidd and Jefferson in the piss poor East for crying out loud!

Hmm, I only remember one crunch time screw up by Manu, and off hand I can think of your pretty boy Vinsanity choking at least 4 playoff games, so what's your point?

The Malone/Barkley logic isn't valid either, both of those guys are head and shoulders above anything Carter could ever hope to be.

Carter will go down a lot like Ray Allen and Allen Iverson will - chuckers who never one a fucking thing but scored a lot of points.

It's pretty fucking lame to try and compare Vince to Manu.

Manu:
* 2001 Italian League Championship (Kinder Bologna)
* 2001 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
* 2001 Euroleague (Kinder Bologna)
* 2001 Americas Championship (Argentina)
* 2002 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
* 2003 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)
* 2004 Summer Olympic Games Gold Medal (Argentina)
* 2005 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)

Individual Awards:

* 1999 Italian League All-Star
* 2000 Italian League All-Star
* 2000 Italian League Most Improved Player
* 2001 Italian League All-Star
* 2001 Italian League Most Valuable Player
* 2001 Euroleague Most Valuable Player
* 2002 Italian Cup Most Valuable Player
* 2002 Italian League Most Valuable Player
* 2002 All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship
* 2004 Ideal Olympics Team
* 2004 Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player
* 2005 NBA All-Star
* 2005 Nike Baller Of The Year (fan poll)
* 2006 All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship


Vince Carter:


* 7-time NBA All-Star selection: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006; was selected in 2002 but missed the game due to injury
* 2-time All-NBA:

* Second Team: 2001
* Third Team: 2000

* NBA Slam Dunk Champion 2000
* NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1999
* NBA Rookie of the Year Award: 1999
* The Sporting News NBA Rookie of the Year: 1999


Yeah, you're right, it is really fucking stupid to compare the two :lmao

And spare me the "Carter didn't have a guy like Duncan" bullshit, tell me who on the Argentinian team that Manu captained to gold medals, world titles, etc. could even carry Duncan's jock.

[timvp]

I think if you look at that list posted, the most obvious point is that in the past 4 years the Spurs have only added one player who they actually drafted- Beno. The Spurs chose to trade away draft picks in the first round because of fianancial purposes- not just to save money for Kidd, but also to trade Malik,... I also happen to believe- and few will agree- that they should have done something different in the draft in 2005. Regardless of whether or not Ian becomes a stud, the Spurs could have drafted him in the second round. I think there is no real debate on that. They could have found a way to get a second round pick (it's not that hard) and use it on him and use their first round pick for immediate help. The Spurs did not want to use a first round pick for immediate help because that person would have signed a contract that year. They again wanted to save salary. Instead, they also assured themselves of not having to deal with the whole Scola/Javtokas contract negotiation saga again as Ian's salary is locked in at cheap whenever he comes to the NBA. The Spurs get him cheap for 2 years to test out- and then if he works out well, they get him 2 more years cheap. If he is a bust, well, they only spent a little in salary on him. I believe instead they should have been willing to invest less than a million dollars in a young player who could join the team last year.

Mahinmi only entered the draft because the Spurs guaranteed him a first round selection. It's too early to blame the Spurs for that pick, since Presti has a pretty damn good track record so far with the Spurs.

Mahinmi and Butler are the two players who could save face for the Spurs. If one of those players turns into a startable NBA bigman, then the Spurs will look smart again.

Right now I have more hope for Butler, but Mahinmi had a couple good games in summer league ... so I guess we'll see.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The problem with those picks LJ is that we need help now. Not in 3-4 years when Ian figures out how to play in the damn league or Butler finally gets off the Stephen Jackson plan.

[ploto]

Mahinmi only entered the draft because the Spurs guaranteed him a first round selection. It's too early to blame the Spurs for that pick, since Presti has a pretty damn good track record so far with the Spurs.

Mahinmi and Butler are the two players who could save face for the Spurs. If one of those players turns into a startable NBA bigman, then the Spurs will look smart again.
But will it be too late...

[T Park]

WTF do you care, your a fuckin Raptors fan.

Go to their messageboards and bother them.

fucking eh.

[Marcus Bryant]

As long as people are complaining, you might as well throw the name David Lee out there. Lee is averaging 11 points and 11 rebounds in only 30 minutes a game ... and just keeps getting better and better. The Spurs traded Malik Rose, the pick that became David Lee, another first round pick and $3M for Nazr Mohammed.

If the Spurs had David Lee, they'd easily win the championship. He's a guy who can rebound but is also agile enough to play against smaller players.



P.S.

And for those saying that Pop always has the last call on personel decisions, don't forget about the Raja Bell case. Pop wanted the Spurs to keep Bell. RC wanted the Spurs to keep Derrick Dial.

:pctoss


That's easily the worst trade in the TD era. And Spurs fans jizzed themselves...

[Mr. Body]

As long as people are complaining, you might as well throw the name David Lee out there. Lee is averaging 11 points and 11 rebounds in only 30 minutes a game ... and just keeps getting better and better. The Spurs traded Malik Rose, the pick that became David Lee, another first round pick and $3M for Nazr Mohammed.

If the Spurs had David Lee, they'd easily win the championship. He's a guy who can rebound but is also agile enough to play against smaller players.

To be fair, the Spurs never would have drafted David Lee. That whole 'American player' thing would've ruled him out.

But yeah, with Lee off the bench, we're in much better shape.

[Mr. Body]

Mahinmi only entered the draft because the Spurs guaranteed him a first round selection. It's too early to blame the Spurs for that pick, since Presti has a pretty damn good track record so far with the Spurs.

*cough*Sergei Karaulov*cough*

[ploto]

I happen to think that part of what has hurt the Spurs in their personel decisions is a little hubris. The Spurs started for a while to get the notion that just about any player would want to join the Spurs, but it has not happened that way.

[Marcus Bryant]

How many other NBA team owners/ownership groups would give a shit about the luxury tax if they had the Big 3 plus management who had a decent knack for finding talent abroad? Spurs fans are far too willing to settle just because the team won a few titles. With a little more aggressive ownership this team could be playing for title #5 in a row. Instead right now everyone is silently hoping this team doesn't get dropped in the 1st round come April.

Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players in the history of professional basketball. He deserves a better supporting cast.

[ducks]

duncan has a hell alot bettter suporting cast then david

[timvp]

*cough*Sergei Karaulov*cough*

*cough* lastplayersinthedraftpanout.01%ofthetime *cough*

[ducks]

duncan needs to start getting agressive on d

duncan is much to blame about the lack of d this year

[Marcus Bryant]

What if TD decides he's tired of settling and walks at the first available opportunity? It's amazing how much Spurs fans want to dismiss his desire and professionalism. Maybe he'll opt to finish out his playing days with an organization that isn't content to coast...

[Solid D]

Recent personel decisions have hurt this team?

*cough* personnel *cough*

[ducks]

he is the one that wanted kidd
and kidd told him HELL NO

[Marcus Bryant]

So now TD is the enemy?

[ducks]

you know everyone said there is one great player liek david robinson and the spurs needed to win
now everyone is saying the same thing with duncan
except for david's play did not drop off as fast as duncan's

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, we just need Duncan to break his back and all will be right.

DRob was able to finish his career with another NBA great who fell in the Spurs lap.

If only TD was so fortunate now.

[ducks]

So now TD is the enemy?

he needs to call a team meeting and get them to start playing d

and trusting each other

I just pointed out duncan had a better supporting cast then david

duncan needs to bring it every night like ai
duncan has the talent to be the finals mvp
BRING IT DUNCAN

[SenorSpur]

I've said this for a while now. The Spurs have becomes masters of mining the international talent. Yet they've done so at time, at the expense of domestic talent here at home - which makes them look awfully foolish.

They act as though it's impossible to get good value at the end of the first round. I know they're being financially cautious and all, yet look at the predicament they've gotten themselves into by placing value on age versus youth and athleticism.

I sometimes wonder how much actual scouting they do in THIS country.

[ducks]

Yeah, we just need Duncan to break his back and all will be right.

DRob was able to finish his career with another NBA great who fell in the Spurs lap.

If only TD was so fortunate now.

he got lucky already with the draft pick of tp :hat

[SequSpur]

Okay, so timvp is saying that RC > Pop when it comes to personnel decisions? If that's true, I disagree. Pop pretty much has the say for all personnel matters on this team... it's been that way since before bob hill left. I know this because I know of someone who works directly with/for RC.

The same guy that passed on Howard, called for a game winning three by Matt Bonner.

[Marcus Bryant]

International talent is no longer solely a Spurs' specialty. The rest of the league has caught up.

[Marcus Bryant]

he got lucky already with the draft pick of tp :hat

TP?

[johnpaulwall21]

you know everyone said there is one great player liek david robinson and the spurs needed to win
now everyone is saying the same thing with duncan
except for david's play did not drop off as fast as duncan's

How is Duncans play dropping fast? Hes got a better cast than when he had to carry the whole team on his back during his mvp seasons. Hes still a 20 10 guy, and he dominated during the semis of last year.

[Mr. Body]

*cough* lastplayersinthedraftpanout.01%ofthetime *cough*

So draft a guy you've never even seen? Wonderboy could have had Jackie Butler there, if they were so hot on him.

[Nero]

For me the biggest mistake was signing Elson rather than Evans for our frontline. The other decisions were on projects and hindsight is 20/20 for those. But in this case you have the best rebounder in the league during the past 5 years versus a career scrub. Furthermore, our team sucked ass on the boards in the playoffs last year. AND Evans is 4 years younger to boot! Okay, maybe they could sign them both and trade Oberto. But you gotta sign Evans for that price.

[ajh18]

Only a spur fan will say that Manu > Carter.

For those still concerned about this argument, here would be how you could make a case for Manu over Carter.

Carter's 24.6 ppg this year come on 19.5 shots, which means he scores 1.26 points/shot. They also come with Carter playing 38.5 min/game, which comes out to .639 points/minute. He also averages 6 rebounds and 4.5 assists per 40 minutes, with a Hollinger PER of 20.46.

Manu averages just 16.3 ppg, but they come on only 11.6 shots, meaning he scores 1.405 points/shot, a higher rate than carter has. He also scores these points in just 27.9 min/game, which comes out to .58 points/minute, while taking many fewer shots. His 40 minute averages of 5 rebounds and 5.2 assists per 40 minutes compare at least equal to Carter's, and his PER of 20.93 is higher. Manu also averages .7 steals/game more than vince, in nearly 11 fewer minutes.

Manu is more effective per minute, and scores more efficiently. Carter scores more, but takes many more shots, though he can play more minutes per game. The point is, there is an argument that can be made for Manu over Carter, and not just based on homer-Spurs logic.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs need the following to win another championship:

A big man who can semi rebound and defend the basket.

A backup pg who can play 8 solid fuckkin minutes a game. Shit, it could be Vaughn.

That's it... I mean how fuckin hard it that...

[SequSpur]

Carter is better than Manu, that's not even a fuckin argument.

If you want to argue that Manu is in the same league as a Vince Carter, then you're probably stupid, high or retarded.

[Nero]

For those still concerned about this argument, here would be how you could make a case for Manu over Carter.

Carter's 24.6 ppg this year come on 19.5 shots, which means he scores 1.26 points/shot. They also come with Carter playing 38.5 min/game, which comes out to .639 points/minute. He also averages 6 rebounds and 4.5 assists per 40 minutes, with a Hollinger PER of 20.46.

Manu averages just 16.3 ppg, but they come on only 11.6 shots, meaning he scores 1.405 points/shot, a higher rate than carter has. He also scores these points in just 27.9 min/game, which comes out to .58 points/minute, while taking many fewer shots. His 40 minute averages of 5 rebounds and 5.2 assists per 40 minutes compare at least equal to Carter's, and his PER of 20.93 is higher. Manu also averages .7 steals/game more than vince, in nearly 11 fewer minutes.

Manu is more effective per minute, and scores more efficiently. Carter scores more, but takes many more shots, though he can play more minutes per game. The point is, there is an argument that can be made for Manu over Carter, and not just based on homer-Spurs logic.

I think Carter would be much more efficient if he played with TD and for Pop. Though he'd probably refuse to play decent D.

[ajh18]

Could be true. Or, maybe Carter HAS to take around 19 shots a game to be effective (his stats from past years suggest this might be true). We don't know how or if VC would be effective as any scoring option other than a first option. The point of displaying those stats was to show that someone COULD make an argument, based on statistics, that Manu is a better/more effective player in his role as a second/third option than Vince is as a number 1. And as for D, that's entirely another issue...

[johnpaulwall21]

Vaughn sucks we need someone like chucky atkins or anthony johnson. people who can be clutch when needed.

[ajh18]

And no, it wasn't to demonstrate that I'm high, retarded, or stupid. Output alone doesn't necessarily equal effectiveness, if the output comes only at the expense of shot opportunities/touches for other players.

[FirebatMIV]

I've said this for a while now. The Spurs have becomes masters of mining the international talent. Yet they've done so at time, at the expense of domestic talent here at home - which makes them look awfully foolish.

They act as though it's impossible to get good value at the end of the first round. I know they're being financially cautious and all, yet look at the predicament they've gotten themselves into by placing value on age versus youth and athleticism.

I sometimes wonder how much actual scouting they do in THIS country.

You're acting like the Spurs never have interest in a domestic player. This is the same team who tried to trade for Jameer Nelson when he fell to the 20s. This is the team that tried to get Daniel Gibson, but were blocked by Ferry. Look at the guys they bring in for work outs. The majority of these players pan out. It isn't as if Scouts magically don't work when it comes to the domestic players. The Spurs recognize talent, but at the same time 1) it's awfully difficult to acqurie talent late in rounds and 2) when you've had a long history of success, fewer and fewer people want to trade with you, especially when it comes to draft picks.

You think that the Spurs didn't want to buy one of the Sun's picks off of them when they were auctioning them off last year? I would be very surprised if a deal wasn't discussed. The problem with criticism like yours is that we know maybe 1/10th of the happenings in the NBA frontoffice. To come to such a conclusion based off of 1 missed move (Josh Howard), is rather stupid.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The problem is Vince doesn't make those around him better. Manu does. You can have Vince's 28 PPG on 25 shots per game, I'll take the born winner who has helped lead his team to titles.

[ShoogarBear]

As long as people are complaining, you might as well throw the name David Lee out there. Lee is averaging 11 points and 11 rebounds in only 30 minutes a game ... and just keeps getting better and better. The Spurs traded Malik Rose, the pick that became David Lee, another first round pick and $3M for Nazr Mohammed.

If the Spurs had David Lee, they'd easily win the championship. He's a guy who can rebound but is also agile enough to play against smaller players.



P.S.

And for those saying that Pop always has the last call on personel decisions, don't forget about the Raja Bell case. Pop wanted the Spurs to keep Bell. RC wanted the Spurs to keep Derrick Dial.

:pctossYeah, I didn't put Lee in the list because the Spurs didn't actually have the opportunity to pick him.

But basically there's been no young addition of consequence since 2004. If the Spurs had just one of Howard/Haslem/Barbosa/Nocioni/Lee, we'd all feel a lot better now, and if they had any two of them, they'd be as near a lock as you can get.

[ArgSpursFan]

For those still concerned about this argument, here would be how you could make a case for Manu over Carter.

Carter's 24.6 ppg this year come on 19.5 shots, which means he scores 1.26 points/shot. They also come with Carter playing 38.5 min/game, which comes out to .639 points/minute. He also averages 6 rebounds and 4.5 assists per 40 minutes, with a Hollinger PER of 20.46.

Manu averages just 16.3 ppg, but they come on only 11.6 shots, meaning he scores 1.405 points/shot, a higher rate than carter has. He also scores these points in just 27.9 min/game, which comes out to .58 points/minute, while taking many fewer shots. His 40 minute averages of 5 rebounds and 5.2 assists per 40 minutes compare at least equal to Carter's, and his PER of 20.93 is higher. Manu also averages .7 steals/game more than vince, in nearly 11 fewer minutes.

Manu is more effective per minute, and scores more efficiently. Carter scores more, but takes many more shots, though he can play more minutes per game. The point is, there is an argument that can be made for Manu over Carter, and not just based on homer-Spurs logic.

I´m with you,The thing is that many of the folks here don´t see the whole picture.They just wanna see high score,spectacular players,who most of the time don´t win a damn thing in their lifes,tham efective,contributors, team oriented players.And personally I don´t blame them,It happens with all NBA fans,thats why Carter,Iverson,T-Mac, etc always get all the votes for the All-star game,while players like manu just win championships instead.
Where would you reather be at??
The all star game or the NBA Finals,and win it all??

[objective]

Yeah, I didn't put Lee in the list because the Spurs didn't actually have the opportunity to pick him.

They did have the opportunity to draft him, they took Mahinmi right before Lee.

[Que Gee]

The problem is Vince doesn't make those around him better. Manu does. You can have Vince's 28 PPG on 25 shots per game, I'll take the born winner who has helped lead his team to titles.

No offense to Manu...But its Tim that makes the difference making people around him better. Not Manu. Vince Carter has never layed with a HOF bigman.

Not saying I don't totally agree with some of your points.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

How about we just draft a player that is the best player or 2nd best on his college team than draft a project that wont play for 5 years? Problem solved. This year we should get our PG in Acie Law that is playing well for Texas A&M on our team than Drtybvtrujy Ftynuykst that is a benchwarmer on a team in Europe. Send this to RC.

[remingtonbo2001]

How about we just draft a player that is the best player or 2nd best on his college team than draft a project that wont play for 5 years? Problem solved. This year we should get our PG in Acie Law that is playing well for Texas A&M on our team than Drtybvtrujy Ftynuykst that is a benchwarmer on a team in Europe. Send this to RC.

As much as I love Acie Law, I don't think the Spurs would bite. Maybe? I believe it is a plus that Law has been able to develope under an incredible system....Pop should move back to GM, let Gillispie coach the Spurs, that is after he is done taking A&M as far as possible. Maybe after Timmy retires?

[AFBlue]

This year we should get our PG in Acie Law that is playing well for Texas A&M on our team than Drtybvtrujy Ftynuykst that is a benchwarmer on a team in Europe. Send this to RC.

Yeah but I heard his potential is through the ROOF! :lol

[rascal]

No offense to Manu...But its Tim that makes the difference making people around him better. Not Manu. Vince Carter has never layed with a HOF bigman.

Not saying I don't totally agree with some of your points.

Exactly. Exchange Manu and Carter and the spurs still win. Duncan is the difference maker. Carter is not good enough to win it all without a dominant big man and neither is manu.

But this thread got side tracked with the manu vs carter comparison.

My main point is the spurs don't pull off any significant trades to improve compared to other teams. I've seen Miami, Detroit, Dallas, Denver and Phoenix get better by pulling off good trades the last few years while the spurs do nothing with trades.


And many good players have been available and exchanged teams during that time and some for very little in return. The spurs could not make one of these trades work out for them in the last few years?

[Mr. Body]

As much as I love Acie Law, I don't think the Spurs would bite. Maybe? I believe it is a plus that Law has been able to develope under an incredible system....Pop should move back to GM, let Gillispie coach the Spurs, that is after he is done taking A&M as far as possible. Maybe after Timmy retires?

It is my unshakeable belief that the Spurs will try to get their starting-quality SF in the first round, preferably trading up with Scola or such to get him, then will try to get their back-up point guard with their 2nd round pick from Milwaukee. Acie Law may not be there at that point, but they'd love to see him there. There are a handful of upperclassman point guards that might be available around there, and the sad-sack teams with better picks in the second round don't really need point guards.

With the last pick, my own personal fantasy is then to bind our late second with Beno Udrih to trade up in the 2nd round. Mail him off with rockets.

[ArgSpursFan]

No offense to Manu...But its Tim that makes the difference making people around him better. Not Manu. Vince Carter has never layed with a HOF bigman.

Not saying I don't totally agree with some of your points.

No doubt TD Makes people around him better,even Tony Parker is a better player with TD in the same team.But I reather play with a Smart player who knows when to go off and scores,and plays strong D all the time,tham a guy who´ll try to get most of the shots and wont care that much on the defensive end.

[zeleni]

worst decision recently?

moving Rasho to Toronto.

[cheguevara]

worst decision recently?

moving Rasho to Toronto.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[ShoogarBear]

They did have the opportunity to draft him, they took Mahinmi right before Lee.Point taken. However, we still don't know how good Mahinmi will be (though at the rate that Lee is improving, it's increasingly unlikely Ian will be that good). So the comparison I was making was not choosing Mahinmi ahead of Lee, because there's a possibility that may end up being the better choice.

However, the jury is not still out on losing that draft pick in exchange for the Nazr rental.

[Spurodamus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Negrodamus.jpg

Peter Holt makes Red McCombs look like a spendthrift.

[2centsworth]

bump. let's add Scola to the list.

[ChumpDumper]

So why start another Scola thread after bumping this one?

[kace]

bump. let's add Scola to the list.

your initial thread about the poor spurs FO was strange considering the 3 titles in 99, 03 and 05. since, the spurs have won another title and still you bring the same thing ?

well, i guess i'll be fine with you bringing it every year as long as the spurs wins the title every year.

but if you keep on annoucing a disaster for an enough long time, a day will come where you'll be right.

[Typhoon]

Carter > Manu

Epic lulz

[2centsworth]

So why start another Scola thread after bumping this one?
i started the scola thread before bumping this one. I realized the Scola thread was more related to this one, so I bumped it.

[2centsworth]

your initial thread about the poor spurs FO was strange considering the 3 titles in 99, 03 and 05. since, the spurs have won another title and still you bring the same thing ?

well, i guess i'll be fine with you bringing it every year as long as the spurs wins the title every year.

but if you keep on annoucing a disaster for an enough long time, a day will come where you'll be right.
you've got to read the thread a little deeper. Bad FO decisions don't come back to haunt you until later. All the titles were due to good FO decisons made before 2002.

[ChumpDumper]

We're tied for the second best record in the west.

We're fine.

[2centsworth]

We're tied for the second best record in the west.

We're fine.
We're fine because we have Tim, Manu, Tony and Bruce. I guess that means RC doesn't have to do a good job anymore. We need a GM that can help reload this team. someone like Jerry West who can get us a Kobe Bryant out of no where and not miss a step.

[ChumpDumper]

We're fine because we have Tim, Manu, Tony and Bruce. I guess that means RC doesn't have to do a good job anymore. We need a GM that can help reload this team. someone like Jerry West who can get us a Kobe Bryant out of no where and not miss a step.Yeah, Jerry West did such a magnificent job in Memphis.

Great take.

[2centsworth]

Yeah, Jerry West did such a magnificent job in Memphis.

Great take.He did ok getting them to the playoffs, but he was awesome in LA.

BTW, wouldn't it be nice to have Josh Howard, Nocionni, and Scola on the team right now.

What could have been. I know RC is your friend, but he's been brutal.

[ChumpDumper]

He did ok getting them to the playoffs, but he was awesome in LA.His main advantage was the team he worked for. Once that advantage was gone, he sucked horribly.


BTW, wouldn't it be nice to have Josh Howard and Scola on the team right now.So what? It's done. What good is bitching doing? Is it bring them back? Are we getting a do-over if we post enough?


What could have been. I know RC is your friend, but he's been brutal.He's not my friend, but yes, multiple championships are brutal. The horror.

Between West and RC, I'm taking RC.

[2centsworth]

His main advantage was the team he worked for. Once that advantage was gone, he sucked horribly. we can argue this, but it's a diversion


So what? It's done. What good is bitching doing? Is it bring them back? Are we getting a do-over if we post enough? Time to fire the person responsible for the mess. btw, don't forget the nocionni fiasco which Kori already stated was Buford's responsibility.


He's not my friend, but yes, multiple championships are brutal. The horror. Living off the fruits of the past. It will all come home to roost if nothing is done.


Between West and RC, I'm taking RC. be careful what you wish. With time you'll be wrong on this too. Remember you saying Scola sucked, you were wrong again.

[dingoANDtheBABY]

I thought we basicly just picked whoever Phx wanted, b.c of a previous deal.

They wanted Barbosa so thats who we drafed and then sent him on his way...

[ChumpDumper]

we can argue this, but it's a diversionActually it's simply true. Jerry West was possibly the worst example of a GM you could come up with in the past five years. I guess Zeke might be worse overall, but his draft picks were so much better than West's. Horrible. Much, much worse than RC.


Time to fire the person responsible for the mess. btw, don't forget the nocionni fiasco which Kori already stated was Buford's responsibility.You're seriously trying to characterize the Spurs' sustained excellence over the past decade as a mess?


Living off the fruits of the past. It will all come home to roost if nothing is done.Yeah, hiring Jerry West will solve everything.


be careful what you wish. With time you'll be wrong on this too. Remember you saying Scola sucked, you were wrong again.I never said that. Why do you have to lie to make a point?

[2centsworth]

Actually it's simply true. Jerry West was possibly the worst example of a GM you could come up with in the past five years. I guess Zeke might be worse overall, but his draft picks were so much better than West's. Horrible. Much, much worse than RC.

You're seriously trying to characterize the Spurs' sustained excellence over the past decade as a mess?

Yeah, hiring Jerry West will solve everything.

I never said that. Why do you have to lie to make a point?

simple question, has RC done a good job over the past 5 years? How would you rate his performance?

[smeagol]

BTW, wouldn't it be nice to have Josh Howard, Nocionni, and Scola on the team right now.

Too many Argies.

You want Sequ to die of a heart attack . . .?

[ChumpDumper]

simple question, has RC done a good job over the past 5 years? How would you rate his performance?Given the restraints of the luxury tax, he's done well enough. The thing I disagree with most is trading away the 1st rounders prematurely to clear cap space. I personally think those can be traded well into the free agency period.

Did Jerry West do a good job in Memphis?

[Kori Ellis]

Time to fire the person responsible for the mess. btw, don't forget the nocionni fiasco which Kori already stated was Buford's responsibility.
I didn't say Buford was responsible for the Nocioni birthdate error. Sam Schuler (sp?) was responsible for that error and he was soon after out of the organization.

I did say that I understand that Pop/Duncan wanted Josh Howard and that RC didn't.

[K-State Spur]

seriously, if you focus only on the misses, you could turn EVERY gm in the history of sports into a guy who should be out on street.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You could play "woulda coulda shoulda" with the history of every GM and every franchise. Yet, somehow, this terrible front office has brought 3 rings to the Spurs since the alleged "last good decision" (ie. Parker). Does that compute? No, it doesn't. You are completely ignoring all the good personnel decisions - the Nazr trade, Finley, Horry, Barry, Oberto, Ime, just off the top of my head.

Everyone can be made to look bad in hindsight and I think that's what this thread is about.

[blizz]

they've won on the strengths of old decisions...giving rc credit for tony, manu and tim is wrong. the question is...what has he done...as a GM...lately? our excellence has nothing to do with anything he's done. those decisions were done before he had the influence he has now. what has he done lately that will set us up for the next few years? nothing. we have a ton of old players who are done...who do we replace them with?

[phyzik]

they've won on the strengths of old decisions...giving rc credit for tony, manu and tim is wrong. the question is...what has he done...as a GM...lately? our excellence has nothing to do with anything he's done. those decisions were done before he had the influence he has now. what has he done lately that will set us up for the next few years? nothing. we have a ton of old players who are done...who do we replace them with?

He got Duncan to sign a contract for less money after he was showed "the plan". Tim must have liked what he saw and I will trust in that.

[Typhoon]

Too many Argies.

You want Sequ to die of a heart attack . . .?

what???? Sequ loves Manu!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs have built a multiple championship team in a small market while staying within the salary cap.







Yes. Clearly RC and the Spurs management suck ass. Good call! :tu

[FilSpursFan]

Trade Barbosa to the Suns for a #1.

Who shall we get for the Barbosa trade?

:donkey :donkey

[K-State Spur]

they've won on the strengths of old decisions...giving rc credit for tony, manu and tim is wrong. the question is...what has he done...as a GM...lately? our excellence has nothing to do with anything he's done. those decisions were done before he had the influence he has now. what has he done lately that will set us up for the next few years? nothing. we have a ton of old players who are done...who do we replace them with?

no, but giving him (and pop) credit for continually being able to surround those 3 with role players who can contribute on a championship level is not wrong. all while staying at or around the luxury tax - which, like it or not, is a constraint that any GM of this team will have to deal with.

[The Truth #6]

Complaining about players that got away is fruitless at this point. If one wants to make an argument, then it should be about not getting more out of the players we DID have on the team. Not developing talent has become a small problem.

[kingmalaki]

How can anyone say your GM hasn't been doing the job as of late? You giys have won 2 of the last 3 titles!!!!

Some of y'all are severly discounting the importance of surrounding your star players with quality role players..which is a very crucial part of winning. I watched Rockets management waste 3/4 of Hakeem's career by surrounding him with scrubs, and I have watched us go 3 seasons with starters like Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Juwon Howard. Older Spurs fans surely remember how management couldn't surround Robinson with enough for the majority of his career I assume? Getting players like Horry, Finley, etc is doing the job....especially when you are winning rings......

[my2sons]

[QUOTE=2centsworth]

BTW, wouldn't it be nice to have Josh Howard, Nocionni, and Scola on the team right now.

AT what cost, over Manu and Tony and there would be little to no role players on this team due to salary. There is more to look at than talent on this team. The prevailing argument to your take will always be scoreboard on a budget in the smallest market in the NBA. By the way how much hardware are these players carrying today. It would be a nice problem to have but how do you forsee paying timmy, tony, manu, howard, nocioni and scola.

[stubborn1]

I have trolled this site for many years but never wished to post. I have no insights into Spur's management so I don't know if each of you actually have money invested in the Spurs or whether this is some fantasy league do over.

I am old enough to remember the only pro basketball in the Arena was pre season NBA between Houston and L.A.(that was a horrible sight, our stadium filled with fans wearing those jerseys).

If you were part of the management team that rented the Dallas franchise for a year so San Antonio would have pro basketball, I want to thank you.

If you were part of the management team that signed George Gervin then went to court to keep his rights, I want to thank you.

If you were part of the management team that wheeled and dealed to get San Antonio into the NBA, you really screwed up. The owners of the St. Louis ABA franchise made millions by selling their city out. I'll bet it hurts the bottom line to write out annual checks to those St. Louis folks. Don't know when the St. Louis payments stopped but I want to thank you for thinking San Antonio first.

If you are/were part of the Spurs fan base that added to the team's unique character, THANK YOU.

If you are part of the current management team that forgot to schedule defensive driving lessons for Robert Javatokas (sp?), you really screwed up. Before the accident, he was going to be the big man replacement we always wanted.

If you are part of the current management team that facilitated the Barbosa trade, GREAT move; sorry it didn't work out. Seriously, the Spurs were never going to draft in the lottery or even the teens during the Duncan era. Phoenix was decidedly average during this time with a decidedly average coach in Frank Johnson. During Barbosa's rookie year, the Suns only won 29 games. The lottery protection clause kicked in but it was just a matter of time before their lottery pick would be ours and we would have our next vaunted big man. There was nothing to indicate D'Antoni would come in and win 62 games his first full year. What ever happened to that 1st round pick; did it go to the Knicks in the Butler deal?

Scola, Scola, Scola. He is really blossoming with Houston and I am happy for him. He really is coming into his own since Yao and Landry have been injured. Does that mean Tim would have had to suffer significant injury for Luis to come into his own as a Spur? If that is the case, I prefer Tim. I know Luis Scola said all the right things about limited minutes and being a back up, etc. He is to be commended for his public statements. During my career, I never saw anyone who had talent and was at the top of his/her career who was satisified with a role that did not fully utilize the person's talents. Did you ever know someone who was not hired because he/she was "overqualified for the job"? Just curious.

Thanks for letting me vent on this allergy induced, sleepless evening. GO SPURS!

Respectfully,

[ShoogarBear]

Don't know when the St. Louis payments stopped

Never. They never stop.

[intlspurshk]

J butler, F Elson, NVE were clearly some bad HR decision by RC but this may in turn due to owners' instruction.

[ArgSpursFan.]

I have trolled this site for many years but never wished to post. I have no insights into Spur's management so I don't know if each of you actually have money invested in the Spurs or whether this is some fantasy league do over.

I am old enough to remember the only pro basketball in the Arena was pre season NBA between Houston and L.A.(that was a horrible sight, our stadium filled with fans wearing those jerseys).

If you were part of the management team that rented the Dallas franchise for a year so San Antonio would have pro basketball, I want to thank you.

If you were part of the management team that signed George Gervin then went to court to keep his rights, I want to thank you.

If you were part of the management team that wheeled and dealed to get San Antonio into the NBA, you really screwed up. The owners of the St. Louis ABA franchise made millions by selling their city out. I'll bet it hurts the bottom line to write out annual checks to those St. Louis folks. Don't know when the St. Louis payments stopped but I want to thank you for thinking San Antonio first.

If you are/were part of the Spurs fan base that added to the team's unique character, THANK YOU.

If you are part of the current management team that forgot to schedule defensive driving lessons for Robert Javatokas (sp?), you really screwed up. Before the accident, he was going to be the big man replacement we always wanted.

If you are part of the current management team that facilitated the Barbosa trade, GREAT move; sorry it didn't work out. Seriously, the Spurs were never going to draft in the lottery or even the teens during the Duncan era. Phoenix was decidedly average during this time with a decidedly average coach in Frank Johnson. During Barbosa's rookie year, the Suns only won 29 games. The lottery protection clause kicked in but it was just a matter of time before their lottery pick would be ours and we would have our next vaunted big man. There was nothing to indicate D'Antoni would come in and win 62 games his first full year. What ever happened to that 1st round pick; did it go to the Knicks in the Butler deal?

Scola, Scola, Scola. He is really blossoming with Houston and I am happy for him. He really is coming into his own since Yao and Landry have been injured. Does that mean Tim would have had to suffer significant injury for Luis to come into his own as a Spur? If that is the case, I prefer Tim. I know Luis Scola said all the right things about limited minutes and being a back up, etc. He is to be commended for his public statements. During my career, I never saw anyone who had talent and was at the top of his/her career who was satisified with a role that did not fully utilize the person's talents. Did you ever know someone who was not hired because he/she was "overqualified for the job"? Just curious.

Thanks for letting me vent on this allergy induced, sleepless evening. GO SPURS!

Respectfully,

RC, is this you? :lol

too many apologies about Scola, and BTW just if you didn't noticed,Scola could've taken Oberto's or Thomas minutes not Duncan's.
Just imagine The Duncan/Scola tandem for a second dude,and try not to pi in your pants while doing it.

[cherylsteele]

The Spurs are working toward 5 titles in 10 yrs and most of you people are complaining like they have done nothing right.

God forbid that the internet and this forum would have been around in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. You would have wanted to trade Gervin in his prime because he had trade value.

Sit back and enjoy the championship ride a little, okay?