Ellis: Where's The Bench?

[Kori Ellis]

By Kori Ellis
SpursZONE.com

http://www.woai.com/content/sports/spurs/story.aspx?content_id=66daaa4e-4094-408a-a7c4-66b341fd87da

After another disappointing defeat at home, San Antonio is left wondering what exactly is wrong with the Spurs. With the Dallas Mavericks holding a 5 ½ game lead in the division, the Spurs’ chances are slim that they’ll be able to catch their intrastate rival.

Wednesday night the Houston Rockets, who had lost 17 straight contests against the Spurs in San Antonio coming into the season, won their second game of the season in the AT&T Center. Tracy McGrady had 37 points in the 90-85 victory, a win that came without All-Star center Yao Ming.

The Spurs mounted a furious comeback at the end of the game, but it was too little too late. Tim Duncan had 37 points for the Spurs, but got little help from his teammates.

Where has it all gone wrong for the Spurs?

You can question the hunger and energy the Spurs bring night in and night out, and while that is a valid concern, San Antonio’s bench is the main culprit as of late.

Coming into this season, many saw the Spurs’ bench as a strength of this team. However, it’s turned out to be quite the opposite. Again Wednesday night, it was the team’s bench that buried the Spurs.

When the Spurs’ starting lineup was on the court, the team outscored the Rockets by nine points. But when Gregg Popovich turned to his reserves, he got nothing.

The bench problem starts at point guard. Beno Udrih has struggled virtually all season and has regressed to the point that it’s questionable if he’s actually an NBA quality player. He has great natural skill, but he has steadily gotten worse since the beginning of his rookie year and now it seems that his confidence is gone.

Jacque Vaughn, who played five horrible minutes against the Rockets, is a third string point guard at best. With Udrih or Vaughn on the court, Houston outscored the Spurs by 15 points.

And while Tony Parker is a very good player, he needs a decent backup point guard to keep him fresh. Udrih and Vaughn aren’t the answers. Whether the Spurs need to make a trade or find a player in the D-League, something must be done. The backup point guard position has been a sore spot for the Spurs all season and it just keeps getting worse.

Coming off the bench at the swing positions are Michael Finley and Brent Barry. While both have had great careers, it appears that age has caught up to both of these players. Finley has struggled with his shot all year and the problem has gotten worse instead of better. Barry has shot the ball well, but his lack of defense brings down his overall effectiveness and keeps him on Popovich’s hot seat.

Getting a dynamic athlete who can create his own shot would be a huge boost for the bench. That is why the Spurs have expressed interest in Corey Maggette and will continue to look for help at that position before the trade deadline. Finley and Barry are both good teammates who want to win, but is there any gas left in their tanks? At times, there doesn’t appear that there is.

For example, the Rockets outscored the Spurs by 14 points when Barry was on the court and outscored the Spurs by six points when Finley was on the court. You can’t have that type of negative contribution from your bench and expect to win many games in this league.

The Spurs bigmen outside of Tim Duncan have been lacking, to say the least. Both Francisco Elson and Fabricio Oberto have looked decent at times, but at other times look more suited to be 12th men rather than starters for a championship contending team. Robert Horry has had moments, but for the most part has been a non-factor.

The Spurs have two main options to strengthen their bench play. They could make a trade to try to infuse some life into their second unit, or the Spurs can shorten the rotation to help the players try to get in better rhythm.

On the trade front, there doesn’t appear to be many likely trade partners out on the market. Maggette is available, but the price tag is likely more than the Spurs can afford. Morris Peterson is probably available, but he doesn’t bring much more than the Spurs get out of Barry and Finley. The Spurs’ best bet might be getting a backup point guard, such as the Grizzlies’ Chucky Atkins, the Magic’s Carlos Arroyo or Seattle’s Earl Watson.

The more likely option is shortening the rotation. The Spurs currently use a nine or sometimes ten man rotation. Limiting the rotation to eight players (the starting five, plus a backup swingman, a backup bigman and a backup point guard), could help the team play more consistently.

With an eight-game Rodeo Road Trip starting Sunday in Los Angeles against the Lakers, the Spurs don’t have much time to right the ship. A subpar trip could cause the Spurs to tumble down the standings.

It isn’t time to panic just yet, San Antonio. But unless the Spurs fix their problematic bench, that time may come soon.

[Melmart1]

It isn’t time to panic just yet, San Antonio.

Too late.

[polandprzem]

The worst thing is spurs play right now is that you can't see the place for improvenment.
In recent years the spurs could get into the slump but when they concentrated you just knew they were able to beat everybody in this leauge.
Right now you can't observe that in spurs game

[ponky]

chucky atkins would be a great pickup

[team-work]

1. Departure of front-office people with great scouting instinct
2. "Conservative" approach of this team in terms of trusting in veterans, e.g. van Exel over Beno, has left this team "old", and also left the young players inconfident.

These 2 problems has no quick remedy, so just wait and see what happens.

[ArgSpursFan]

The worst thing is spurs play right now is that you can't see the place for improvenment.
In recent years the spurs could get into the slump but when they concentrated you just knew they were able to beat everybody in this leauge.
Right now you can't observe that in spurs game

I think there is some place for improvenment in the defensive end.We can´t have guys like kobe or T-Mac scoring 35, 37 pts.I know Bowen is not a kid no more,but its rediculous to see a guy score like that against him.

[Kori Ellis]

I think there is some place for improvenment in the defensive end.We can´t have guys like kobe or T-Mac scoring 35, 37 pts.I know Bowen is not a kid no more,but its rediculous to see a guy score like that against him.

As you can see in this thread
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58727

Bowen actually had the best +/- of any Spurs player in the Rockets game.

The Spurs lost the game because at the end of the 3rd quarter/beginning of the 4th quarter when Bowen was on the bench for a long period, the Rockets outscored the Spurs by 15 points.

[SequSpur]

Kori.....

Nice!

[itzsoweezee]

i can understand giving other players minutes during the regular season so as to prevent fatigue later on (although popovich has been pretty ridiculous in the amount of minutes he's giving to players who aren't producing).

but come playoff time, if the spurs don't limit their rotation to duncan, parker, ginobili, oberto, elson, bowen, barry, and bonner, the spurs postseason is going to be a short one.

[boutons_]

As others have pointed out, Pop seems married to the idea that Michael 2007 will revert to the Michael of the late 90s/early 2000s, scoring off the bench like he was averaging 20+ PPG as a starter. It's pretty clear Michael's shot is gone, and he's nothing but a shooter. This is the same mistake Pop make with Nick Van Exel.

Even worse, when NBA.com used to show playoff averages, even in his prime, Michael's avg scoring went slightly down in the playoffs. He was never a playoff stud, on average.

[ploto]

1. Departure of front-office people with great scouting instinct
I mentioned this during the summer- people don't appreciate what some of the staff did outside of RC, Pop, and Sam, and how many of these guys are gone. They kept claiming the Spurs were fine as long as the Big 3 were with the team- not Tim, Manu, and Tony-- Pop, RC, and Sam.

[SenorSpur]

I disagree. Now is EXACTLY the time to panic.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I am sure all of us have heard from other fans or even in the media that " 27 teams in the league would love to be at 30-14". There is an undertone of sarcasm when you hear that because those folks think SA fans are overreacting. Count me in with the 'overreacting' crowd. We have all be fortunate to see championship teams grow throughout a season with steady improvement and the team peaking at the right time. This team isn't one of those. I am somewhat amazed at our consistent inability to execute down the stretch. In the past it was a game here or there that this would happen but now it's an ugly pattern. In the past when we would struggle there would be flashes of brilliance on both ends of the court that would leave some hope but no this year. I was not surprised at what happened last night because we have played this way all along. Maybe we're to spoiled by our past success but it's not fun to cheer for a team that would be extremely lucky to get out of the second round. Hell if the playoffs started today we'd be lucky to get out of the first round. Are the days of contending over for this team? We all knew it would happen but probably not this soon. For those who respond to this that say I am overreacting please give ne some insight as to what gives you hope for the rest of the season?

[Mr. Body]

The worst thing is spurs play right now is that you can't see the place for improvenment.

That's it in a nutshell. The team's attitude will improve, which will make them more competitive at some point, but there's not any room for growth otherwise.

[ArgSpursFan]

As you can see in this thread
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58727

Bowen actually had the best +/- of any Spurs player in the Rockets game.

The Spurs lost the game because at the end of the 3rd quarter/beginning of the 4th quarter when Bowen was on the bench for a long period, the Rockets outscored the Spurs by 15 points.

I guess Kobe and Dirk scored most of their points against the spurs when bowen was on the bench also.The point of this thread is that our bench sucks and we all know that,and I agree too,but I just can´t see these guys(kobe,t-mac,dirk,etc)play out of their minds against the spurs all the time.

[polandprzem]

I am sure all of us have heard from other fans or even in the media that " 27 teams in the league would love to be at 30-14". There is an undertone of sarcasm when you hear that because those folks think SA fans are overreacting. Count me in with the 'overreacting' crowd. We have all be fortunate to see championship teams grow throughout a season with steady improvement and the team peaking at the right time. This team isn't one of those. I am somewhat amazed at our consistent inability to execute down the stretch. In the past it was a game here or there that this would happen but now it's an ugly pattern. In the past when we would struggle there would be flashes of brilliance on both ends of the court that would leave some hope but no this year. I was not surprised at what happened last night because we have played this way all along. Maybe we're to spoiled by our past success but it's not fun to cheer for a team that would be extremely lucky to get out of the second round. Hell if the playoffs started today we'd be lucky to get out of the first round. Are the days of contending over for this team? We all knew it would happen but probably not this soon. For those who respond to this that say I am overreacting please give ne some insight as to what gives you hope for the rest of the season?

:tu



MrBrody how can the attitude improve?
And even if so ... Not having the riht tools you can forget about TD era. Time to rebuild but on whom? Spurs do not have a time to surround TD with a talent to win it all.

[mabber]

i can understand giving other players minutes during the regular season so as to prevent fatigue later on (although popovich has been pretty ridiculous in the amount of minutes he's giving to players who aren't producing).

but come playoff time, if the spurs don't limit their rotation to duncan, parker, ginobili, oberto, elson, bowen, barry, and bonner, the spurs postseason is going to be a short one.

It will be interesting to see how the Suns hold up as they've basically been playing a playoff rotation (7 man, sometimes 8) the entire season.

[ArgSpursFan]

It will be interesting to see how the Suns hold up as they've basically been playing a playoff rotation (7 man, sometimes 8) the entire season.

they do that every year since 2004,and came up short every year.I don´t think is gonna change this year eather.
they´ll run out of gas again this year.

[mabber]

they do that every year since 2004,and came up short every year.I don´t think is gonna change this year eather.
they´ll run out of gas again this year.

D'Antoni reminds of Don Nelson in that he's totally sold on his way of doing things and won't ever change cuz he believes he can win a championship that way. While I admire the confidence in yourself and your system, at some point you need to realize that it's ok to make some changes to get you over the hump.

His job has to be much easier than most coaches as what player wouldn't want to play in that system(Run & gun w/o much care for defense)? Coaches like Pop, Avery, Jackson, Riley, etc. have to sell their players on playing defense which is a much bigger chore.

[cherylsteele]

The worst thing is spurs play right now is that you can't see the place for improvement.
I can see 2 main places for improvement and it is not personnel.

The biggest problem is attitude.....they get can get up by 20 points on most any team with great ball movement on the offensive end and then down the stretch stopped staying aggressive and this lets the other team back in the game. When they move the ball and make the "D" move they they simply get better looks at the basket, whether it is 3 pointer or layups. This is the biggest of the 2 problems.

The other problem is defensive rotations....especially by the newer players. They are sometimes slow to react when the opposition gets into or near the paint. However, I have been seeing steady improvement.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

1. Departure of front-office people with great scouting instinct




I mentioned this during the summer- people don't appreciate what some of the staff did outside of RC, Pop, and Sam, and how many of these guys are gone. They kept claiming the Spurs were fine as long as the Big 3 were with the team- not Tim, Manu, and Tony-- Pop, RC, and Sam.


team-work and ploto, humor me - who left that mattered? The big ballas in the front office are Pop, RC, and Presti. They're all still here. We lost Pritchard to Portland a couple of years ago, and that's about it.

The problem isn't who left, because no one significant has left.

The problem is that they made their killing on finding Euro talent. Since they made their splash, other teams have invested heavily in foreign scouting and have caught up to the Spurs.

Meanwhile, our domestic talent evaluation sucks, and that's the key problem with this front office. They went bargain basement Euro, and missed out on grabbing guys like Howard and David Lee.

[ALVAREZ6]

We're still only half way through the season.


No need to panic.

[nkdlunch]

Kori great article and I agree with the points of a backup PG, our bench sucks, etc.

But 2 other factors which should be mentioned:
- Our players don't have the motivation anymore and just waiting around for the playoffs
- Pop is becoming a problem, he has publicly stated that nothing is wrong w/us and Dallas beat us because of the Manu foul, etc. Not only that, but Pop's lineups and some plays he has called, along with not calling timeouts when they should(late in the game) is leading me to beleive Pop is becoming senile

somebody needs to call the players and Pop out for this

[mountainballer]

very good article.

it is an interesting point, that the Spurs best bet might be to get another back-up PG.
(considering we have been talking about almost any SF in this league as a possible addition)

in another thread I tried to make a point for a trade for Jasikevicius (+ Barnes, in a best case scenario).
I don't know, if he is even on the market, but considering the make-up of GSW's back-court he doesn't look indispensable.
so, for the right offer, he might be available and the right offer for the Warriors will be one that helps to save cap-space to either resign Pietrus and not jump over the tax threshold.

I know, many are not very high on Saras, because of his overall disappointing play in the NBA and there is also a good chance that he doesn't help the Spurs as we would need it.
and for sure he isn't an upgrade of the perimeter defense and the overall athleticismn and he is 30.
BUT
he would be -hands down- a huge upgrade over Beno
AND
it might be the (realistic) trade with the most significant upside potential out there.
if Saras qualities can be somehow unleashed, the Spurs would not only get a special player, they would also get a player who has one quality, that currently seems to lack in this team: a winner mentality like the one we knew from Manu.
I saw Saras lead (and sometimes ferocious push) his teams to various titles, this is a quality that can't be teached and I can't belive that he has totaly lost this ability somewhere over the Atlantic.

We know the the Spurs have liked and scouted him for years and there might even have been some talks.
again, Saras wouldn't be a sure thing, but IMO and in the current situation the Spurs should take (have to take) some risk. something they avoided (for example this summer) when they didn't sign Scola.
many comments stated that the Spurs have also become to predictable. well, one thing for sure: Saras Jasikevicius isn't predictable.

btw: I am a bit superstitious and like signs (only the good ones of course).
Saras once repleaced Beno at Maccabi. the next two years Maccabi won back to back Euroleague titles. what worked once, might also work twice.

and btw 2: just for thoses who think Eva is hot and a great eye catcher on the courtside.
for those who didn't already know her: this is Linor Abargil, Saras wife and former miss world.
http://www.kan-naim.co.il/ARTpic/LinorAbargilSharas_t208k-n_14-7-06_01.jpg

[nkdlunch]

^ holy crap! his wife looks like a dude in that pic

Atkins, Arroryo and even sarunas would be an improvement over Beno.

[mountainballer]

^ holy crap! his wife looks like a dude in that pic

ok ok, another one:
http://www.shamsports.com/images/wives/linorabargil.jpg

(guess you just started the contest)

[AFBlue]

The more likely option to go with 8 players has a big flaw....

One backup PG - Which one!?! They both suck, which is why a trade must be made!

The other two back ups are easily solved in Robert Horry and Brent Barry. For the other starter, rotate between Fabs and Kiko based on the opposing team's personnel. This may not work for the season but could definitely be employed in the playoffs.

[ploto]

Does anyone else think the Spurs keep sharing time between Brent and Finley because Brent may get traded and they will have to rely on Finley?

[AFBlue]

Does anyone else think the Spurs keep sharing time between Brent and Finley because Brent may get traded and they will have to rely on Finley?

If Barry gets traded it better damn well be in a package to get a player of greater value so that the Spurs won't HAVE to rely on Finley.

[ploto]

If Barry gets traded it better damn well be in a package to get a player of greater value so that the Spurs won't HAVE to rely on Finley.
But what if Brent is traded to get an expiring contract?

Now entering the game for Manu Ginobili- expiring contract! :lol

[AFBlue]

But what if Brent is traded to get an expiring contract?

Now entering the game for Manu Ginobili- expiring contract! :lol

Expiring contract > Michael Finley :lol

Just kidding...not really

Honestly, as highly as the Spurs FO values Barry (questioning giving him up for Maggette in the beginning), I doubt they get rid of him to dump salary because it has no financial gain (they're still over the cap if they do the deal).

The only case I see is if that expiring contract also holds value for the Spurs' critical need areas. For instance, if it took Brent Barry to get Brevin Knight for the Spurs backup PG need, I could see that.

[Bruno]

Spurs bench has been crappy at PG/SG/SF this year. I've found it quite versatile at PF/C, there aren't great names except Duncan but players know their roles and all bring something different.

[GrandeDavid]

Honestly, I've got so much stuff going on this year that I have rarely even pondered the present state of the Spurs. But I do believe that they'll put a run together eventually and I do believe they'll be playoff ready...I hope.

[itzsoweezee]

The more likely option to go with 8 players has a big flaw....

One backup PG - Which one!?! They both suck, which is why a trade must be made!

The other two back ups are easily solved in Robert Horry and Brent Barry. For the other starter, rotate between Fabs and Kiko based on the opposing team's personnel. This may not work for the season but could definitely be employed in the playoffs.


barry can play the point, so can ginobili. both are better options than udrih. and parker can 40 minutes a game easily (at least in the playoffs).

and once Bonner gets back, Horry should be planted firmly on the bench.

[johnpaulwall21]

yeah popobitch needs to get parkers young ass out there and play way more minutes. and play beno as least amount possible

[101A]

yeah popobitch needs to get parkers young ass out there and play way more minutes. and play beno as least amount possible


I think his limiting minutes of the starters seriously hurts this team in overtime situations. Our guys consistently run out of gas...remember; Spurs didn't lose to Dallas's on Manu's screw-up; they had a whole overtime to make up for that; but were completely out of gas.

Pop needs to keep the starters in more; NO other team limits as much as Spurs..could also help to contain the nightly meltdown at the end of the 3rd; beginning of 4th quarters.

[SenorSpur]

Spurs bench has been crappy at PG/SG/SF this year. I've found it quite versatile at PF/C, there aren't great names except Duncan but players know their roles and all bring something different.

Actually this is the 2nd straight year of the crappy play from these positions.

[AFBlue]

I think his limiting minutes of the starters seriously hurts this team in overtime situations. Our guys consistently run out of gas...remember; Spurs didn't lose to Dallas's on Manu's screw-up; they had a whole overtime to make up for that; but were completely out of gas.

Pop needs to keep the starters in more; NO other team limits as much as Spurs..could also help to contain the nightly meltdown at the end of the 3rd; beginning of 4th quarters.

:dizzy

Wait, wait....are you saying the Spurs should play their starters MORE in order for them to be LESS tired as the game wears on? This simply defies logic, but I have to make sure that's what you're saying...

[mardigan]

I thought all offseason that Atkins was someone the Spurs needed to bring in, but to late on that. A Melvin Ely player would help, as would a Jackie Butler that didnt resemble Oliver Miller. My only question is with James Whites good play on the Toros, why this guy couldnt get any minutes with our old sf and sg positions.

[AFBlue]

barry can play the point, so can ginobili. both are better options than udrih. and parker can 40 minutes a game easily (at least in the playoffs).

and once Bonner gets back, Horry should be planted firmly on the bench.

They can bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense, but neither are quick enough on defense to guard opposing point guards and the bottom line is that would require someone taking the position those two would normally occupy. How does your team look, 1-5, with either Barry or Manu running the point?

[ploto]

Expiring contract > Michael Finley :lol

Just kidding...not really

Honestly, as highly as the Spurs FO values Barry (questioning giving him up for Maggette in the beginning), I doubt they get rid of him to dump salary because it has no financial gain (they're still over the cap if they do the deal).

The only case I see is if that expiring contract also holds value for the Spurs' critical need areas. For instance, if it took Brent Barry to get Brevin Knight for the Spurs backup PG need, I could see that.

Kind of what I really meant- if people want a trade for a PG, I think it will require a trade of Barry and that means more Finley!

[mardigan]

And what happened to Jay Williams in the D league, was he that bad? He cant be worse than Beno

[AFBlue]

Atkins isn't a bad option, but he's on an affordable contract and plays significant minutes as backup to the oft-injured Damon Stoudamire, who's on a much fatter, long-term contract. If Memphis wants to divulge itself of anyone I'm betting it'd be Stoudamire, not Atkins. He'd be good though.

[johnpaulwall21]

u never know, washington and l.a. didnt keep atkins even though he was doing good for those ball clubs

[nkdlunch]

And what happened to Jay Williams in the D league, was he that bad? He cant be worse than Beno

good question

[mardigan]

Atkins isn't a bad option, but he's on an affordable contract and plays significant minutes as backup to the oft-injured Damon Stoudamire, who's on a much fatter, long-term contract. If Memphis wants to divulge itself of anyone I'm betting it'd be Stoudamire, not Atkins. He'd be good though.
But Memphis is the worst team in the league, usually teams like that with older vets are willing to trade those players for youth (Beno), or expiring contracts (Williams+second round pick). Wishfull thinking I suppose

[johnpaulwall21]

jay williams wont be back in the league.

[AFBlue]

Kind of what I really meant- if people want a trade for a PG, I think it will require a trade of Barry and that means more Finley!

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that acquiring a new backup PG HAS to involve Barry. The fact remains that whomever the Spurs bring in to back up Tony, if indeed they do, will only play 12-15mpg, and though they may be "critical" minutes, it would be tough to justify giving up the production that Barry gives. Barry may be inconsistent, but IMO the Spurs would be better off hanging on to him unless they can add a consistent contributor to the lineup (a la Maggette).

Deals are possible with Eric Williams' expiring contract as well. I'll say it again, Arroyo appears to be a good fit based on both teams' needs.

[mardigan]

Nevermind, Jay Williams was waived due to injury, guess he is done, sad

[AFBlue]

But Memphis is the worst team in the league, usually teams like that with older vets are willing to trade those players for youth (Beno), or expiring contracts (Williams+second round pick). Wishfull thinking I suppose

Agreed...it's not that "wishful", and if Gasol gets traded, I'd say it's much more likely because it indicates that Memphis would be in a rebuilding mode (plus they'd probably want a young PG back, seeing as how it's one of their key issues).

[AFBlue]

Nevermind, Jay Williams was waived due to injury, guess he is done, sad

There's other D-League point guards out there if you want to champion one of them (Will Conroy has a thread on his behalf), so don't be sad.

Honestly what is sad is Beno's complete meltdown as a player. I read in an ESPN chat yesterday that the game is 80% mental and I'd believe it. When Beno came into this league it seemed like he had unshakeable confidence and now he's wittled down to being counter-productive when he's on the floor (poor shooting %, turnovers, bad decisions). Pop should take it as a lesson learned that what works for some (Tony Parker) may not work for others....that's sad.

[mardigan]

Jay got waived because he got hurt on the NBDL doesnt have a injury list, he was having a pretty good begining of the season, so I wont give up on him, as far as Beno, it went from me thinking his first year that every 3 he took had a chance to go in, to cringing every time I see him pull his warmups off to come into the game. I havent seen a player fall off this hard since Ed O Bannon, and its to the point where I dont think he even deserves a roster spot

[AFBlue]

Jay got waived because he got hurt on the NBDL doesnt have a injury list, he was having a pretty good begining of the season, so I wont give up on him, as far as Beno, it went from me thinking his first year that every 3 he took had a chance to go in, to cringing every time I see him pull his warmups off to come into the game. I havent seen a player fall off this hard since Ed O Bannon, and its to the point where I dont think he even deserves a roster spot

The crazy thing is...

I think if this kid were in Phoenix and they just let him jack up jumpers all the time w/ reckless abandon...he'd be scoring like crazy (think Eddie House). I think alot of it has to do with Pop coming down so hard, and rightfully so IMO, on quick shots and poor clock management.

[mardigan]

So your saying wrong system, I can see that. Like I asked before though, why cant the Spurs find minutes for James White, maybe he isnt ready, but our 2 and 3s suck balls and at least he will hustle

[Kori Ellis]

The crazy thing is...

I think if this kid were in Phoenix and they just let him jack up jumpers all the time w/ reckless abandon...he'd be scoring like crazy (think Eddie House). I think alot of it has to do with Pop coming down so hard, and rightfully so IMO, on quick shots and poor clock management.

Beno's been chucking all season and he's shooting 35% from the field and about 10% lower from 3. :lol

[101A]

:dizzy

Wait, wait....are you saying the Spurs should play their starters MORE in order for them to be LESS tired as the game wears on? This simply defies logic, but I have to make sure that's what you're saying...


Pay attention, please.

The Spurs starters play fewer minutes than other team's starters; and are not conditioned to play as many minutes.

Then the playoffs roll around and Pop increases his starter's minutes...and the Spurs run out of gas late in games, and especially in overtime against athletic teams.

Also, if the BIG problem on this team is the bench (and it is), play the starters more - there's some time to spare, there, IMO, considering how much other teams play their starters.

[johnpaulwall21]

parkers wayyyyyyy to young to be getting those kinds of minutes!!!!!!!!!!!

[Manu_The _Best]

Kori,

Great article. Congrats. Maybe you can push a little bit Pop whose job is to make sure the boys perform 100% every night...

[AFBlue]

Beno's been chucking all season and he's shooting 35% from the field and about 10% lower from 3. :lol

I see what you're saying, but I think everytime Beno shoots now he's got a mental image of Pop over his shoulder saying "DON'T TAKE THAT F*ING SHOT!" :madrun I think that'd screw anyone up. My point is that his confidence is blown because he hasn't reacted to Pop's in-your-face criticism as well as some others have (Tony/Tim). The damage is done for now, and maybe for good. I'm saying had he started out in a place that welcomes chuckers (Phoenix is the prime example) he might be productive today.

[Kori Ellis]

I see what you're saying, but I think everytime Beno shoots now he's got a mental image of Pop over his shoulder saying "DON'T TAKE THAT F*ING SHOT!" :madrun I think that'd screw anyone up. My point is that his confidence is blown because he hasn't reacted to Pop's in-your-face criticism as well as some others have (Tony/Tim). The damage is done for now, and maybe for good. I'm saying had he started out in a place that welcomes chuckers (Phoenix is the prime example) he might be productive today.

I don't think that Beno has that image of Pop at all, seeing as Pop has given him the green light to shoot for the most part. (Though he should be making better shot selection.)

Pop encouraged Beno a lot before he ever criticized him publically. I think the "in-your-face" criticism was his last resort with Beno. Pop doesn't handle everyone how he handles Tony.

[AFBlue]

Pay attention, please.

The Spurs starters play fewer minutes than other team's starters; and are not conditioned to play as many minutes.

Then the playoffs roll around and Pop increases his starter's minutes...and the Spurs run out of gas late in games, and especially in overtime against athletic teams.

Also, if the BIG problem on this team is the bench (and it is), play the starters more - there's some time to spare, there, IMO, considering how much other teams play their starters.

Honestly, you explained it much better/more clearly the second time around.

Still, while acclamating them to increased minutes would possibly condition them to doing it in the playoffs, it also runs the possibility of tiring out come playoff time so that when those crucial games are upon them they've got nothing left. After all, they do have 40 games or so left...and that's alot of acclamating.

[AFBlue]

I don't think that Beno has that image of Pop at all, seeing as Pop has given him the green light to shoot for the most part. (Though he should be making better shot selection.)

Pop encouraged Beno a lot before he ever criticized him publically. I think the "in-your-face" criticism was his last resort with Beno. Pop doesn't handle everyone how he handles Tony.

So it doesn't strike you as odd that the monumental dip in his production coincided with Pop taking the harshest approach?

[Kori Ellis]

So it doesn't strike you as odd that the monumental dip in his production coincided with Pop taking the harshest approach?

No. Pop called him out after he was already sucking.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Sit Oberto, start Elson and the Spurs go 9-0 on the rodeo trip :smokin

[Kori Ellis]

Sit Oberto, start Elson and the Spurs go 9-0 on the rodeo trip :smokin

Have you seen him play lately? He hasn't even figured out how to set a screen. :lol

[AFBlue]

No. Pop called him out after he was already sucking.

He sucked before he even played a game (training camp)? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is when Pop called him the team's "4th Point Guard" right? I'm sure that would instill a great level of confidence in me if Pop were my coach.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Have you seen him play lately? He hasn't even figured out how to set a screen. :lol

It's all part of the plan :lol

Seriously though i have seen Oberto and that guy stinks more than 12 month old prawn heads in an aussie summer

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Spurs should have traded Udrih to the Bucks for Steve 'big shot' (as he has been dubbed in Denver, sorry Chauncey :lol ) Blake :smokin

[VaSpursFan]

Seriously though i have seen Oberto and that guy stinks more than 12 month old prawn heads in an aussie summer

:lol :lol :lol i'm a spurs fan...but this is a hilarious quote

[VaSpursFan]

Spurs should have traded Udrih to the Bucks for Steve 'big shot' (as he has been dubbed in Denver, sorry Chauncey :lol ) Blake :smokin

blake is a solid PG...and boykins has flourished in Milwaukee. that trade worked out well for both teams.

[ArgSpursFan]

Sit Oberto, start Elson and the Spurs go 9-0 on the rodeo trip :smokin

It don´t really matter who´s the starter at this moment (oberto or elson).they play the same kind of minutes and they aver.the same kind of points and rebounds.eather can start,It wont change the team´s performance that much.

[AFBlue]

It don´t really matter who´s the starter at this moment (oberto or elson).they play the same kind of minutes and they aver.the same kind of points and rebounds.eather can start,It wont change the team´s performance that much.

I disagree from the perspective that each offers a uniquely different set of attributes that can be utilized depending on the situation.

I'd argue that (at least in the playoffs) the Spurs should start Oberto against a slower plodding team like the Rockets and use his offensive intellingence to their advantage, while not being a defensive liability. Against a team like the Suns, however, the Spurs should start Elson to keep up with the fast-paced transition game and abuse the smaller lineup with his length.

[Bruno]

Actually this is the 2nd straight year of the crappy play from these positions.

I've found Barry/Finley quite good in the second half of last season.
Spurs haven't had a good backup PG for a whole season since 2003.

[ArgSpursFan]

I disagree from the perspective that each offers a uniquely different set of attributes that can be utilized depending on the situation.

I'd argue that (at least in the playoffs) the Spurs should start Oberto against a slower plodding team like the Rockets and use his offensive intellingence to their advantage, while not being a defensive liability. Against a team like the Suns, however, the Spurs should start Elson to keep up with the fast-paced transition game and abuse the smaller lineup with his length.

I agree,Thats why I said ¨at this point¨,but when playoffs come around we´re gonna star seeing a dif.rotation,with only 8 players on it.

[wildbill2u]

"For example, the Rockets outscored the Spurs by 14 points when Barry was on the court and outscored the Spurs by six points when Finley was on the court."

Should we be making judgements based on one game's suspect stats?

Doesn't the fact that Barry played twice as many minutes make a difference in the equasion here. And while Barry was shooting 50% for 8 points, Finley was shooting 2 of six (30%) for 4.

If you assume both are the same defensively, which is the better passer and more involved in ball movement (team player). I'd rather have Barry on the floor this year based on what both have done through the season.

[ChumpDumper]

Jay got waived because he got hurt on the NBDL doesnt have a injury list, he was having a pretty good begining of the season, so I wont give up on himHe had a nagging groin injury -- at the same time I didn't see anything from him that would've suggested he'd help the Spurs this year. I'm still on the Will Conroy bandwagon, though I was really impressed by the debut of his former teammate Cheyne Gadson for the Toros yesterday. Pooh Jeter looked like crap in the same game. I've seen him look fantastic in other games -- it just looks like he needs more time to ensure a high level of consistency. It is his first year playing the point after all.

For pure scoring, most of the NBA-caliber scorers have already been picked up. Jawad Williams is doing ok in scoring but plays zero defense and is a crappy rebounder for this size. Vincent Grier is probably the best all-around guard left. Von Wafer has been shooting very well this year though he sucked yesterday when I saw him. I'm still trying to figure out why Devin Green left a couple of weeks before the callup floodgates opened to play like seven games in Germany. He was getting alot of time at the point in Los Angeles and was on everyone's radar.

For tweeners to pretend to be long SFs I still like Jamar Smith, who guarded TMac in preseason better than any Spur not named Bruce, and Mike Hall, who is a better outside shooter than Jamar this season, though he hasn't been playing as much perimeter defense.

The Spurs might keep guys like this in mind if they send out more people in trade than they take back or waive anyone who isn't in their future plans after the trade deadline.

[mardigan]

CD, why has White not been called up, his stats seem pretty decent, and I know he is active, has he not played well enough in the D league to get minutes with the Spurs?

[pad300]

The Spurs might keep guys like this in mind if they send out more people in trade than they take back or waive anyone who isn't in their future plans after the trade deadline.

I'm certainly hoping that the Spurs will do a trade that will leave them with a roster spot to play with. I still suspect a Francis buyout is coming - it makes to much financial sense for the knicks, and I don't think he likes it there anyway. It would be nice to have a roster spot to catch a talent like him, or for a pick-up if someone in the D-league looks nice.

[ChumpDumper]

CD, why has White not been called up, his stats seem pretty decent, and I know he is active, has he not played well enough in the D league to get minutes with the Spurs?It's just two very different levels of play. Athletic players will always have their stats a bit inflated in the D-League because they can get away with alot of stuff they couldn't in the NBA, where defenses are better and opposing players are bigger and faster.

Also, the Toros roster has been through some major changes, so he's just starting to play in something resembling a coherent halfcourt set. It'll be nice to see how he's used in a little more structured offense like the Spurs run now that there are a couple of guys on the team that can run the show.

I hope the Spurs are watching D-League game tape and keeping tabs on what plays that work for White there may translate to the NBA. Personally I think his best offensive use on the Spurs would be as a off-the-ball cutter and occasional spot up shooter -- if that sounds like Jack to you, you're right, but don't expect prolific scoring like Jack. Defensively, he's the only guy we currently have who could follow in Bowen's footsteps as a versatile perimeter defender, and that alone may make him worth holding onto.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm certainly hoping that the Spurs will do a trade that will leave them with a roster spot to play with. I still suspect a Francis buyout is coming - it makes to much financial sense for the knicksIt depens on the amount of the buyout.
It would be nice to have a roster spot to catch a talent like him, or for a pick-up if someone in the D-league looks nice.I would take Francis over any D-Leaguer at this point provided he can function with his tendinitis.

[ChumpDumper]

One more thing about White -- I still really haven't seen what he can do off a decent pick. Those just don't seem to happen on the Toros (and less often on the Spurs these days, unfortunately). I would have more faith in him in that kind of play than most one-on-one situations in the NBA.

[timvp]

Can White even dribble, though? From what I saw he had bad handles and avoided contact at all costs.

Then again, those two games I saw him play were supposedly his two worst games.

[ChumpDumper]

He can dribble ok, not a lock to dribble off his foot like Jack, but still much better in straight lines than changing direction -- like I said I'd just like to see him in that situation. He does avoid contact but was quick to follow shots when there was any opening and it would be nice having another guy who could keep up with Tony on a break. As I said before, I don't see his main role on the Spurs as a scorer.

[mardigan]

More of a energy hustle guy? Sounds like what the Spurs need

[ChumpDumper]

No, more of a regular defender and option in offensive plays, not the primary scorer. The energy he would provide would be in transition.

If you want a pure energy player, pick up Louis Amundson.

[mardigan]

Hows Jawad Williams played? Always thought he would be a good pro when he was at NC, but I guess something didnt translate

[ChumpDumper]

Jawad is turning into Lee Nailon. Ok offense but nothing else.

[mardigan]

Is Luke Jackson still in the D league, or was he called up yet? He is a great shooter and I could never understand why he couldnt catch on. Reminds me of Kapono a little bit

[ChumpDumper]

He got called up by the Clippers but went back to Idaho after his 10-day contract ran out. I think teams are still leery about his knee, but he'll probably get another contract next season if not this one.

[SPURS vs NBA media]

a player from the D-LEAGUE what a joke,ELLIS

[ploto]

Can White even dribble, though? From what I saw he had bad handles and avoided contact at all costs.

Then again, those two games I saw him play were supposedly his two worst games.
I meant to tell you how much the Raptors commentators like Devin. Leo went so far as to say that they once miked Devin for an NBDL game and that he was impressed with how much knowledge Devin had even back then. He started the game last night at PG, but later played SF.