Question on Racism

[MajorMike]

Would you consider me a racist:

If i went to a "church congregation which is Unashamedly White" and prided themselves on being "a European people" who "remain 'true to our native land,' which adopted a "White Value System" which pledges allegiance "to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System" and a "personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System."

?

[ObiwanGinobili]

yes because excludes others based on their race. which is based on and leads into a line of thinking that at the best is intolerant and ignorant.

the same applis for if you switched the words "white" to read black, african american, korean, french, or martian.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Obama?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.


These are your church concepts, CM.

And I do not think it is necessarily racist, at least in absolute terms.

[Melmart1]

Any church with such exlusionary tactics is not very Christian, imho.

[Melmart1]

I would also add that if you even have to ask yourself that question, you probably already have your answer.

[Jim Jones]

You're a racist cracker.

[MajorMike]

Obama?

Correct.


Obama says he is a Christian with "deep faith rooted in the Christian tradition." He is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ of Chicago, which on its web site declares to be a "congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian" and "an African people" who "remain 'true to our native land,' the mother continent, the cradle of civilization."

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted a "Black Value System" which pledges allegiance "to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System" and a "personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."



How is that not racist??

[1369]

Correct.




How is that not racist??

Because white guys aren't doing it.

[Fillmoe]

Political Forum

[Fillmoe]

and I also think that you are REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEACHING.

[101A]

Political Forum

What? You want these guys run out or there like you were?

BTW: Arguing that an organization, in this country, espousing black pride, is racist is a non-starter. However much it may be "not fair", it is what it is. The majority in our society, the white majority, ARE held to a higher standard because of many reasons, not the least of which are: Slavery, segregation, lynchings, etc....

It is understandable for a relatively recently oppressed minority group to be wary of calls from a White organization espousing "All White Leadership." From a practical standpoint, we have that now (Look at pictures of Congress from the State of the Union Address). If Whites then band together because that level of control is not ENOUGH, then, again practically speaking, they MUST desire an entire society that is exclusionary and elitist.

Minority groups in this country, and especially African American minority groups, are not, and probably should not, be held to that standard. Their rhetoric CANNOT lead to the same systemic racial abuses that Whites were able to carry out for hundreds of years on this continent. That rhetoric is certainly tinged with racism, but I would consider it more prideful than racist, and, again, not very dangerous. That being said, the fact that Obama is a member of the congregation, however, does raise questions about his own sensibilities.

[samikeyp]

If his church said that people were not allowed to join because of their race, then yes it would be racist. I didn't see anywhere that was said...if it was I missed it.

[MajorMike]

So, a black girl can enter the Miss USA but a white girl can't enter the Miss Black USA? That is not racist? Can you imagine the NAACP going nuts if the Don started a Miss White USA?

[Spurminator]

Are you guys sure he's a member?


MEET SENATOR BARACK OBAMA!!!

On Sunday, January 28th, immediately following the 11:00 a.m. worship service, meet Senator Barack Obama, author of the best-selling book, Audacity of Hope. Purchase your copy of Audacity of Hope in the Akiba Bookstore and have it personally signed by Senator Obama. You do not want to miss this monumental experience!


http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

[DarkReign]

Loaded thread.

Look, it isnt fair or balanced, but the bottom line is that black people can have all black colleges and schools (which are partially funded by the government) but white people cannot.

Get over it. If it bothers you that much, take solace in the fact that in under 30 years, white people will be a minority in this country. Affirmative Action for white people.

[Spurminator]

Nevermind, he is. I just thought it was weird that they would have a bulletin posted to meet a member...

As you were.

[Slomo]

Because white guys aren't doing it.I have stumbled upon this argument a few times, and generally in some US media (Print, Radio, TV...).

And frankly I don't get it. A person (I don't really care who it is) who excludes a group of other people based on their race, religion, ethnicity, nationality or cultural background is a racist plain and simple.

In my life I've met racist from many different groups (from the above criteria) and I don't really understand why I should treat/consider them differently because they are from different groups?

I'm not trying to reduce the responsability of the white people (God knows we have some really bad specimen) but if you behave as bad as ours do, you're just as big an asshole.

[ShoogarBear]

Get over it. If it bothers you that much, take solace in the fact that in under 30 years, white people will be a minority in this country. Affirmative Action for white people.We already do.

http://www.blogue.canoe.com/mediam/Nash-MVP.jpg

[Kori Ellis]

“Just as my pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright from Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, welcomed me as a young man years ago, UCC churches across the country open their doors to millions of Americans each Sunday, and they accept, love and counsel all who enter,” Obama said. “This spirit of inclusiveness has served as a model for me in my time in the Senate, and the love for one’s fellow man that the UCC stands for is the foundation of my work.”

Doesn't seem to racist to me. *shrug*

[Spurminator]

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some of their concepts seem a bit over the top to me... namely "A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA" and "Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System" and such... but I doubt they would exclude anyone who wanted to worship with them.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they're racist... I have no problem with a congregation that worships according to heritage and traditions (these roots and traditions happen to be African and not, say, Italian). If they are offering a place for Christians to worship in a way that pleases God and is spiritually uplifting for them then more power to them.

My only problem with this church would be if it is immoderately involved in Politics, etc. But that wouldn't have anything to do with race, and it certainly wouldn't be limited to this church.

[101A]

We already do.

http://www.blogue.canoe.com/mediam/Nash-MVP.jpg

lol.

[Extra Stout]

It would be superfluous and redundant to espouse allegiance to a "White Value System" in America, since the core political and moral values on which the United States is based came over from European movements. We speak English. Our political ideals flowed out of the European Enlightenment. The dominant brands of Christianity in the U.S. mostly have their roots in Europe. Our most dominant customs and traditions mostly are based upon European customs and traditions. While there is striving to be as inclusive as possible, the Eurocentrism of American culture is obvious and common-sensical. This is not a value judgment, but rather an obvious observation that the United States is part of Western civilization, which I think we are all pretty clear on.

Given that context, when "White Values" is held up as a political movement, the usual connotation is white supremacy. That is racist.

So, an expression of a "Black Value System" connotes a contrast against the implied, predominant, European-based value system of the country at large, and is not racist.

[Fillmoe]

So, a black girl can enter the Miss USA but a white girl can't enter the Miss Black USA? That is not racist? Can you imagine the NAACP going nuts if the Don started a Miss White USA?


what would be the point of a miss black usa if a white girl could enter? why would they even have one.....

[Fillmoe]

captmike is reaching..... real hard.....

[Fillmoe]

What? You want these guys run out or there like you were?



yah what a great forum to post at....

On Hurricane Katrina


Haven't they been given enough coverage?? I'm longing for the next hurricane so we can start feeling sorry for someone else. How does S. Carolina sound??



fuck new orleans.. stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something... but stfu about new orleans



9/11 > Katrina x 100000

I'm a little more concerned about terrorism than I am about the forces of nature. I'm pretty sure the rest of the country is too. As for approval rating...do you actually think the guy gives a shit about it? :lol


I like many other Americans am sick to death of hearing about New Orleans and its unfortunate plight. Enough is enough already. The media as well as the White House have given that burg all the attention it deserves. Like a previous poster mentioned I keep waiting for the next horrible disaster to take place so that we can focus on some other community for awhile. For one thing I don't think it's the federal government's responsibility to rebuild New Orleans. It's up to Louisiana. Instead of subsidizing Tom Benson's Saints and spending tens of millions to refurbish the Superdome the state government should be rebuilding housing, infrastructure etc.





what a great forum....

[angel_luv]

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Some of their concepts seem a bit over the top to me... namely "A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA" and "Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System" and such... but I doubt they would exclude anyone who wanted to worship with them.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they're racist... I have no problem with a congregation that worships according to heritage and traditions (these roots and traditions happen to be African and not, say, Italian). If they are offering a place for Christians to worship in a way that pleases God and is spiritually uplifting for them then more power to them.
.


I agree.
For me, it is all about proper perspective and balance. I'm for being patriotic and being proud of your heritage as long as it's expressed in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.

[MajorMike]

what would be the point of a miss black usa if a white girl could enter? why would they even have one.....


**makes hand signal for airplane flying over fillpot's fro**

[tlongII]

My understanding is that Obama was born and raised a muslim. I realize he converted to christianity, but still...

[Fillmoe]

**makes hand signal for airplane flying over fillpot's fro**


cant reply cuz my statement makes perfect sense......

[kris]

It would be superfluous and redundant to espouse allegiance to a "White Value System" in America, since the core political and moral values on which the United States is based came over from European movements. We speak English. Our political ideals flowed out of the European Enlightenment. The dominant brands of Christianity in the U.S. mostly have their roots in Europe. Our most dominant customs and traditions mostly are based upon European customs and traditions. While there is striving to be as inclusive as possible, the Eurocentrism of American culture is obvious and common-sensical. This is not a value judgment, but rather an obvious observation that the United States is part of Western civilization, which I think we are all pretty clear on.

Given that context, when "White Values" is held up as a political movement, the usual connotation is white supremacy. That is racist.

So, an expression of a "Black Value System" connotes a contrast against the implied, predominant, European-based value system of the country at large, and is not racist.

Good post. There's no need for a "white" Miss America because 90% of them are already white.

[Extra Stout]

My understanding is that Obama was born and raised a muslim. I realize he converted to christianity, but still...
This meme has gotten out there pretty successfully, though it is outrageously false.

By primary time, Democratic voters will be convinced he is the al-Qaeda Manchurian Candidate.

[Kori Ellis]

This meme has gotten out there pretty successfully, though it is outrageously false.

By primary time, Democratic voters will be convinced he is the al-Qaeda Manchurian Candidate.

:lol

I don't know all of his history, but isn't the truth that his mom is a Christian from Kansas and his birth father was an agnostic (whose parents were Muslim)?

[tlongII]

This meme has gotten out there pretty successfully, though it is outrageously false.

By primary time, Democratic voters will be convinced he is the al-Qaeda Manchurian Candidate.

How is it outrageously false? I think it's pretty well known now that his stepfather was muslim. Maybe not devout muslim, but muslim nonetheless.

[Kori Ellis]

How is it outrageously false? I think it's pretty well known now that his stepfather was muslim. Maybe not devout muslim, but muslim nonetheless.

His stepdad was non-practicing Muslim. So how does that make Obama Muslim?

[Spurminator]

He's got them thar Muslim blood in his veins.

[tlongII]

His stepdad was non-practicing Muslim. So how does that make Obama Muslim?

His stepfather gave him the muslim name Hussein, which he rarely uses in public. He went to a Madrassa (muslim school) while he grew up in Indonesia. Sounds muslim to me.

[Extra Stout]

How is it outrageously false? I think it's pretty well known now that his parents were muslim. Maybe not devout muslims, but muslims nonetheless.
You appear to be spectacularly misinformed on the subject.

1) His mother was NOT Muslim.

2) His father was nominally Muslim.

3) Obama's father left when Barack was 2 years old.

4) Obama was in an Indonesian public school from the ages of 6 to 8, after which he transferred to a Catholic school.

5) After the age of 10, he lived with his maternal grandparents in Hawaii.

6) His upbringing was secular.

Based on the facts, it would be very difficult to conclude that Islam was significant in Obama's youth.

The fabrication that Obama was raised as a Muslim was started by the Religious Right political magazine Insight. There has been a big controversy over Obama in evangelical Christian circles since he was invited to speak at an AIDS conference at Rick Warren's Saddleback Church.

[Extra Stout]

His stepfather gave him the muslim name Hussein, which he rarely uses in public. He went to a Madrassa (muslim school) while he grew up in Indonesia. Sounds muslim to me.
The "madrassa" was a public school in Indonesia. Contrary to fabrications that the school in question was a terrorist training school run by the Wahabbi sect, an investigation by journalists who are not outright liars showed it to be an unremarkable public school, although it did offer classes in both the Qu'ran and New Testament.

[tlongII]

From Insight magazine...

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Obama_2.htm

Hillary's team has questions about Obama's Muslim background

Are the American people ready for an elected president who was educated in a Madrassa as a young boy and has not been forthcoming about his Muslim heritage?



This is the question Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s camp is asking about Sen. Barack Obama.



An investigation of Mr. Obama by political opponents within the Democratic Party has discovered that Mr. Obama was raised as a Muslim by his stepfather in Indonesia. Sources close to the background check, which has not yet been released, said Mr. Obama, 45, spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa, or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia.



"He was a Muslim, but he concealed it," the source said. "His opponents within the Democrats hope this will become a major issue in the campaign."



When contacted by Insight, Mr. Obama’s press secretary said he would consult with “his boss” and call back. He did not.



Sources said the background check, conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton, disclosed details of Mr. Obama's Muslim past. The sources said the Clinton camp concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education.



"The background investigation will provide major ammunition to his opponents," the source said. "The idea is to show Obama as deceptive."



In two best-selling autobiographies—"The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream" and "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance"—Mr. Obama, born in Honolulu where his parents met, mentions but does not expand on his Muslim background, alluding only to his attendance at a "predominantly Muslim school."



The sources said the young Obama was given the name Hussein by his Muslim father, which the Illinois Democrat rarely uses in public.



His father was black and came from Kenya. Mr. Obama’s mother, the daughter of a farmer, came from Wichita, Kansas. Mr. Obama's parents divorced when he was two years old. His father returned to Kenya.



Later, Mr. Obama's mother married an Indonesian student and the family moved to Jakarta. Mr. Obama returned to Hawaii when he was 10 to live with his maternal grandparents.



The sources said the background check concerned Mr. Obama's years in Jakarta. In Indonesia, the young Obama was enrolled in a Madrassa and was raised and educated as a Muslim. Although Indonesia is regarded as a moderate Muslim state, the U.S. intelligence community has determined that today most of these schools are financed by the Saudi Arabian government and they teach a Wahhabi doctrine that denies the rights of non-Muslims.



Although the background check has not confirmed that the specific Madrassa Mr. Obama attended was espousing Wahhabism, the sources said his Democratic opponents believe this to be the case—and are seeking to prove it. The sources said the opponents are searching for evidence that Mr. Obama is still a Muslim or has ties to Islam.



Mr. Obama attends services at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago’s South Side. However, he is not known to be a regular parishioner.



"Obama's education began a life-long relationship with Islam as a faith and Muslims as a community," the source said. "This has been a relationship that contains numerous question marks."



The sources said Mr. Obama spent at least four years in a Muslim school in Indonesia. They said when Mr. Obama was 10, his mother and her second husband separated. She and her son returned to Hawaii.



"Then the official biography begins," the source said. "Obama never returned to Kenya to see relatives or family until it became politically expedient."



In both of his autobiographies, Mr. Obama characterizes himself as a Christian—although he describes his upbringing as mostly secular.



In “The Audacity of Hope,” Mr. Obama says, "I was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother as secular, but says she had copies of the Bible, the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita in their home.



Mr. Obama says his father was "raised a Muslim, but by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist...." Mr. Obama also describes his father as largely absent from his life. He says his Indonesian stepfather was "skeptical" about religion and "saw religion as not particularly useful in the practical business of making one's way in the world ...."



In the book, Mr. Obama briefly addresses his education in Indonesia. "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."




Mr. Obama graduated from Columbia University and Harvard Law School; he became the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. He later settled in Chicago, joined a law firm and began attending and helping local churches.



Mr. Obama is married to Michelle Robinson and they have two daughters, Malia and Sasha. In 1996, he was elected to the Illinois state Senate. Eight years later, he became a U.S. senator from Illinois.



The sources said Ms. Clinton regards Mr. Obama as her most formidable opponent and the biggest obstacle to the Democratic Party’s 2008 presidential nomination. They said Ms. Clinton has been angered by Mr. Obama's efforts to tap her supporters for donations.



In late 2006, when the Illinois senator demonstrated his intention to run for president, the Clinton campaign ordered a background check on Mr. Obama, the sources said. Earlier this week, Mr. Obama established an exploratory committee, the first step toward a formal race.

[Extra Stout]

Sometimes it is remarkable to behold how "Christians" like the folks at Insight Magazine will resort to baldfaced lies.

As I mentioned in the political forum, this doesn't even really have to do with Obama as a candidate. It wouldn't make much sense to run the smear campaign against him now, unless the Religious Right has some wink-wink-nudge-nudge agreement with Hillary Clinton.

This has to do more with the effect of Obama's rhetoric on evangelical white Christians. He has a remarkable ability to make very liberal ideas sound like the logical conclusion of Christian faith to those who are easily swayed.

[ShoogarBear]

Obama is too untrustworthy to be president.

We need a Real Murican with Real Murican values to step forth, like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Extra Stout]

Obama is too untrustworthy to be president.

We need a Real Murican with Real Murican values to step forth, like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
He's not Murican anymore, not since he got stem cell funding and greenhouse gas regulations passed in California, and is now working on statewide universal health care.

[ShoogarBear]

He's not Murican anymore, not since he got stem cell funding and greenhouse gas regulations passed in California, and is now working on statewide universal health care.Yeah, but wasn't his dad some sort of alleged Nazi? Doesn't that make him untrustworthy, following some of the logic in this thread?

[Extra Stout]

Yeah, but wasn't his dad some sort of alleged Nazi? Doesn't that make him untrustworthy, following some of the logic in this thread?
If there were a really strong movement to change the Constitution so that the Governator could run for President, you could have had a stinging point.

[timvp]

Racist? With a name like Obama Hussein, I'm just glad he isn't walking around blowing things up and declaring jihads like the rest of those cow worshiping muslims.

[ShoogarBear]

Karl Rove can't wait until Obama is officially in the ring.

[Extra Stout]

Racist? With a name like Obama Hussein, I'm just glad he isn't walking around blowing things up and declaring jihads like the rest of those cow worshiping muslims.
:lmao

[Extra Stout]

Karl Rove can't wait until Obama is officially in the ring.
Err... W doesn't get to run for a third term.

He might try to argue that his executive powers as Commander in Chief give him the power to decide if and when he leaves office, inasmuch as we are embroiled in a Global War on Terror, but he's not going to be elected President in 2008.

[ShoogarBear]

Err... W doesn't get to run for a third term.
Karl Rove != George W. Bush. You think somebody won't hire him as a consultant?

[Fillmoe]

damn the government has y'all shook of Muslim people..... I wonder what pls_dont_ban_me thinks of this subject..... I'm pretty sure hes Muslim.....

[Fillmoe]

are you guys sure you dont want to put all muslims in concentration camps?

[Fillmoe]

So, a black girl can enter the Miss USA but a white girl can't enter the Miss Black USA? That is not racist? Can you imagine the NAACP going nuts if the Don started a Miss White USA?


The Miss USA pageant has been around since the early 50's and since then only 3 winners have been African-American. Like Extra Stout said you don't have to have a Miss "White" USA, its already implied.