Amare sucks?

[Findog]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6406426?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=73

In the Suns' 112-107 win over the Knicks, the exercise was to evaluate the status of Amare Stoudemire. The season is just about halfway gone, and the face-off in New York marked the second of back-to-back road games for Phoenix (although Stoudemire only logged 19 foul-plagued minutes the night before in Washington).

Here are Stoudemire's stats against New York:
MIN FG FT REB A ST TO BS PTS
33 9-14 12-16 11 0 1 4 0 30

And here's why these initially impressive numbers are grossly misleading:

Seven of Stoudemire's hoops (on only seven shots) were the direct result of passes from Nash — and accounted for half of the reigning MVP's total assists in the game at hand. Moreover, nine of Stoudemire's free throws were similarly generated by Nash's pin-point passwork.

In all, Stoudemire and Nash teamed up for 17 screen/rolls, which led to eleven of Stoudemire's total points. Moreover, give Nash credit for finding Stoudemire on a lob pass, a nifty pass through traffic on a fast break, a timely pick-up of a dive-cut by AS, as well as a given-and-go also occurring on the run. Including the and-ones, that's another ten points in Stoudemire's column.

When the S/Rs were not operative, Stoudemire mostly hung out just above one elbow or the other while Nash took the ball into, or near the paint. On several occasions, Stoudemire actually waited with his hands on his hips. Then, at precisely the right moment, Stoudemire recognized the most effective angle at which to make his cut — and Nash always hit him when he was open. As was frequently the case, the Knicks defense had to rotate to cover Stoudemire's dive-cuts, and Nash easily located the perimeter shooters that the defensive shifts left unattended.

Stoudemire also scored a bucket on the receiving end of a S/R he worked in tandem with Boris Diaw. One more hoop plus two free throws eventuated from a pair of S/Rs he ran with Leandro Barbosa.

Here's what happened when Stoudemire tried to score on his own:

A stumbling move on a turn-and-face from the right box led to a turnover.
A clear-out resulted in his badly missing a wide-open 18-foot jumper.
An iso from above the foul line turned into an awkward spin and a botched fadeaway jumper from 10-feet.
When Stoudemire tried to create something off his dribble on a pair of wing-isos, he came up empty and had to harmlessly pass the ball back out.
He missed a baseline layup from the left box.
He missed another layup when he tried to put-back an offensive rebound.
He was fouled when attempting another put-back and converted 1-2 free throws.
And he managed to drop a simple layup after still anther offensive rebound.
While Stoudemire has mastered the difficult art of flawlessly moving without the ball, he is absolutely dependent on his teammates' (mostly Nash) hand-feeding him easy shots. That's also why his field-goal percentage is so inflated.

Yes, he's still quick, but he lacks the jet-speed that he had before his knee surgery. Also, the tight spins and sudden changes of direction seem to be similarly missing from his game.

What else?

His jumper has retrogressed, and he has a difficult time handling the ball in traffic.

The inevitable conclusion is that while Stoudemire has perfectly adapted to the Suns' wide-open offense, he wouldn't be nearly as effective on any other team. Still, he is where he is, and that's good enough to help the Suns in their run for a championship by consistently ringing up impressive numbers.

At the other end of the court, Stoudemire's defense was worse than ever.

The Suns are quick to two-time any post-player, even those who aren't especially potent scorers — like the Knicks' David Lee, or Brendan Haywood when they played the Wiz. Their intent is to force opposing big men to make accurate passes while the other three Suns are speedily darting in and out of the available passing lanes.

Even so, Stoudemire only attacked a single entry pass into Curry — otherwise he mostly stationed himself behind the bigger man and passively waited for help. Too bad Curry was frequently able to establish such deep position in the paint that he could catch and shoot before the double-team arrived. This happened five times and resulted in four easy baskets by Curry plus a foul on Stoudemire.

Nor was Stoudemire any better when the Knicks S/Rs were aimed at him. He neither attacked the ball nor rotated with the roller. Instead, he tended to get caught in no-man's land and thusly permitted the Knicks to have their way.

Stoudemire's total of eleven rebounds is also misleading since seven of them were totally uncontested. Indeed, his lack of explosion off the floorboards enabled Malik Rose, David Lee, and even 5-foot-9 Nate Robinson to beat him to the top of his jump and steal rebounds away from him. Notice, too, that Stoudemire had no blocked shots.

In sum, Stoudemire is much smarter (on offense) than he was before his knee miseries. But he's also lost the super-charged quickness that made him such a dynamic force at both ends of the court.

Later rather than sooner, Stoudemire's deficiencies will be exploited as the Suns advance deeper into the playoffs. Until then, Stoudemire should at least strew rose petals in front of Nash as they walk to and from the court.

[AZLouis]

LOL.

I can't believe the majority of his baskets were the result of passes from the best PG in the NBA. What a shocker.

What's nice is this article is based on a 30 point performance against the fledgling Knicks and a foul troubled performance in a blow out against the Wiz (who were #1 in the East at the time).

Find me another player doing what's he doing just over a year after surgery to repair a microfractured knee and less than year from surgery on the other knee.

[Findog]

Find me another player doing what's he doing just over a year after surgery to repair a microfractured knee and less than year from surgery on the other knee.

Well, if you read McCallum's book, Amare dogged it in his rehab and took much longer than he should have to come back. Plenty of guys have come back from microfracture and maintained their level of play -- Zach Randolph and Kidd come to mind. Not everybody is going to end up like Webber or Penny. The Suns need Amare to be the force he was 2 years ago to suprass Dallas and San Antonio, and he is clearly not that player yet.

[AZLouis]

Is he going to average nearly 40 ppg in a series like he did against SA?

Amare is improving as each game passes.

His scoring is 8 ppg less than in his last full season. His rebounding is up. Blocks are nearly the same. And fg% and ft% have dramatically increased.

I agree his jumper isn't quite there yet and he doesn't have the elevation of Amare of old. Amare recently said he is 4 inches away in his vertical leap from reaching his pre-surgery best.

I didn't think he be doing that well this year. So it now anything is possible.

Unlike 2 years ago he doesn't have to be that big force. The Suns have much better talent and deeper than that team as long as health prevails.

He doesn't need to be that guy from 2 years for the Suns to have success against the Mavs and Spurs.

[Findog]

I think he's a baller on one side of the court only, just like the Suns as a team. Everybody keeps talking about point differential and how the pace they play at creates more posessions per game and thus higher scoring totals, but I'm just not impressed by them beating Charlotte or Atlanta 135-106 this time of the year. Let's see what they do in May or June.

[RonMexico]

Yeah, I read this last night. Amare had an off-night in all other areas except receiving passes from Nash and finishing. Rosen is acting like the Suns won a title when Amare was doing everything himself against SA in 2005. I like the fact that he can get wide open shots and then when defenders play him tighter off screens, Nash or any of the perimeter guys gets a good look.

Amare admitted earlier in the year that he needed the proper motivation to get his act together (we all know he's still an immature 24-yr-old) and that came when D'Antoni put him the starting lineup. I doubt going against Eddie Curry was the motivation he needed last night to play a good game. I'll tell you this, he didn't average 40 points per game against the Spurs during the regular season, but probably going head-to-head against Tim Duncan in the WCF brought a little passion out in him. Also, you Mavs fans saw quite a dunk off an alley-oop from Nash in Dallas a month ago, which seemed a little "explosive" to me.

Amare's outside jumper wasn't falling but that didn't mean he has "retrogressed" as Rosen says. In fact, he only took two outside jumpers and when you're getting feeds from Nash, Barbosa, and Diaw 3 feet from the basket, why would you step out and shoot a jumper when it's not falling? Rosen should have watched a few other games before using just one night in NYC as a measuring stick.

Rosen sees a single game and then makes a statement about a whole player's career. He watched one Blazers game and immediately called Brandon Roy a "bust." He doesn't understand the term "off night" or "season averages" apparently. We should all flood his box with emails that we watched a game where Kobe had 81 points and so that means he never passes the ball to his teammates (stats be damned that Kobe is averaging 5+ assists this year!).

However, I might be happy he wrote this article because it can only add more fuel to Amare's fire and perhaps give that "extra motivation" he needs to turn it up even against the shitty opponents. There are so many more points of inaccuracy I can find in his analysis and writing style but everyone already has to read this shitty article, so why read more of what I have to say?

Ok, one more thing: to say a guy shouldn't get 11 rebounds because so many were "uncontested" or that his shooting percentage is "inflated" because he gets so many good feeds from the two-time MVP is just asinine to me. Could it be perhaps Amare is being smarter with the basketball and instead of forcing shots (like he did in 04-05 when he only shot 52%), he might be creating for his teammates? The team's shooting percentage is at its highest since the 2004-2005 season and some of this has to be the unselfishness among the group as a whole.

By the way, Rosen, they never double-teamed David Lee once in that game... he seems to exaggerate/make up parts of the game to convince himself that his arguments are valid.

[stretch]

Amare is a fucking baller that any team would love to have. Sure he is a lot better with Nash, but who isn't?
Dirk Nowitzki.

[stretch]

Yeah, I read this last night. Amare had an off-night in all other areas except receiving passes from Nash and finishing.

as he does just about every game the Suns play. same for Marion. without Nash, those guys are half the players they are now. Marion DEFINITELY would not be an all-star.

[AZLouis]

as he does just about every game the Suns play. same for Marion. without Nash, those guys are half the players they are now. Marion DEFINITELY would not be an all-star.

You ever see Amare's and Marion's pre-Nash stats?

From JMarkJohns

- Amare Stoudemire -
Pre-Nash: 21 ppg, 9 rpg, 48% FG
Pro-Nash: 26 ppg, 9 rpg, 56% FG
---------------------------------------
TOTALS...+5 ppg, -- rpg, +8% FG

- Shawn Marion -
Pre-Nash: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 44% FG
Pro-Nash: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 48% FG
--------------------------------------
TOTALS... -- ppg, -- rpg, +4% FG

Marion was also an all-star in 02-03 which was prior to Nash arriving.

Amare was ROY and Nash came in Amare's third year in the league.

[u2sarajevo]

Yeah, Amare sucks Phoenix... so why don't y'all trade him to my Mavericks. We'll give you some expiring contracts (Stackhouse and Croshere).

Would ya? Since, you know, he sucks so bad?

[Tradition]

as he does just about every game the Suns play. same for Marion. without Nash, those guys are half the players they are now. Marion DEFINITELY would not be an all-star.

Even though he is not an all star yet, Josh Howard would not be this good without Dirk. Harris wouldnt be this good either along with Devon George and just about every other Mav on the team.

[TDMVPDPOY]

nash, amare, marion all have one thing in common = overrated

[JamStone]

Karl Malone sucks too.

James Worthy sucks too.

[P-O-Z]

Dirk Nowitzki.
hell naw

[u2sarajevo]

hell naw2 things...

1. It would have been more efficient to use the word "no", as this was only 1 character instead of 2. But if your fingers needed the exercise never mind.

2. How can you make the claim that Nash would make Nowitzki better? We have seen it, lived it, etc.... Nash left and Nowitzki took over.

[da_suns_fan__]

as he does just about every game the Suns play. same for Marion. without Nash, those guys are half the players they are now. Marion DEFINITELY would not be an all-star.

Moron...

Marion was an all-star in 03.

[Extra Stout]

Posting an article by Charley Rosen immediately eviscerates the argument of anybody agreeing with Rosen.

+1 point for Suns fans.

[Doug Collins]

Posting an article by Charley Rosen immediately eviscerates the argument of anybody agreeing with Rosen.

+1 point for Suns fans.

nice :fro

[Bookit]

as he does just about every game the Suns play. same for Marion. without Nash, those guys are half the players they are now. Marion DEFINITELY would not be an all-star.

I'm beginning to believe that they system makes Marion, Nash, Amare, Raja great and not the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if D'Antoni found a suitable replacement for Nash if he was injured. He knew what kind of guy he wanted in Nash and when out and got him. I'm sure there is someone out there he could get that would work in his system.

[AZLouis]

I'm beginning to believe that they system makes Marion, Nash, Amare, Raja great and not the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if D'Antoni found a suitable replacement for Nash if he was injured. He knew what kind of guy he wanted in Nash and when out and got him. I'm sure there is someone out there he could get that would work in his system.

You mean like Marcus Banks? You've seen how he works out right? :dramaquee

Apparently it isn't the system that makes the player. It's a combo of both.

As great as the system has worked for the Suns, it takes a special kind of player to be able to sustain success in it and not only for themselves but the team first of all.

[dirk4mvp]

Amare recently said he is 4 inches away in his vertical leap from reaching his pre-surgery best.




What is Amare's pre-surgery vertical?


hell naw


So Dirk's numbers haven't went up since Nash left? :lol

[AZLouis]

What is Amare's pre-surgery vertical?

I don't know. The announcers didn't say what it was on tv.

However, during the same discussion they said Boris Diaw has the highest vertical leap of anybody on the team. (they didn't say what that was either)

[Dirk41MVP]

Sure he is a lot better with Nash, but who isn't?

Dirk and the entire Maverick Organization.

People focus too much on the Nash thing. Sure he's a good player, but he's not a 2-time MVP (maybe 3 times ?). He has a tremendous supporting cast, better than he ever had in Dallas (he had nobody aside from Dirk and a Michael Finley in his late stages of productivity), that's why his numbers are wayy up, even though he's playing the same style of basketball.

Swap Jason Kidd for Steve Nash, and Jason Kidd is a 2-time MVP

[JMarkJohns]

People focus too much on the Nash thing. Sure he's a good player, but he's not a 2-time MVP (maybe 3 times ?). He has a tremendous supporting cast, better than he ever had in Dallas (he had nobody aside from Dirk and a Michael Finley in his late stages of productivity), that's why his numbers are wayy up, even though he's playing the same style of basketball.

Swap Jason Kidd for Steve Nash, and Jason Kidd is a 2-time MVP

Ignorance. You know nothing about basketball. Absolutely nothing.

[stretch]

You ever see Amare's and Marion's pre-Nash stats?

From JMarkJohns

- Amare Stoudemire -
Pre-Nash: 21 ppg, 9 rpg, 48% FG
Pro-Nash: 26 ppg, 9 rpg, 56% FG
---------------------------------------
TOTALS...+5 ppg, -- rpg, +8% FG

- Shawn Marion -
Pre-Nash: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 44% FG
Pro-Nash: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 48% FG
--------------------------------------
TOTALS... -- ppg, -- rpg, +4% FG

Marion was also an all-star in 02-03 which was prior to Nash arriving.

Amare was ROY and Nash came in Amare's third year in the league.
indeed, but there has been a BIG increase in the talent levels in the league since then. Marion may not even make the all star team this year, even with Nash.

second, remember how shitty this team was, before Nash came? they had the worst record in the west. shows that Amare and Marion were NOT capable of carrying this team on their own. they are talented players, but do not know how to lead a team, or be a #1 option.

[stretch]

Moron...

Marion was an all-star in 03.
how right you are. but as i said in a post to someone else... the amount of talent in the league is FAR higher than it was in 2002-2003. now we have added guys like Lebron, Carmello, Wade, Bosh, Dwight Howard, Josh Howard, Manu Ginobili, Chris Paul, etc...

times have changed.

[stretch]

Dirk and the entire Maverick Organization.

People focus too much on the Nash thing. Sure he's a good player, but he's not a 2-time MVP (maybe 3 times ?). He has a tremendous supporting cast, better than he ever had in Dallas (he had nobody aside from Dirk and a Michael Finley in his late stages of productivity), that's why his numbers are wayy up, even though he's playing the same style of basketball.

Swap Jason Kidd for Steve Nash, and Jason Kidd is a 2-time MVP
i cant agree with that. Nash is just as good of a passer as Kidd, but a FAR better shooter. that is one of the things that makes the Suns so fucking lethal, is Steve Nash's shooting ability. Kidd would be good in that system, but not NEAR as good as Nash. the ONLY thing that Kidd does better than Nash is defend, but as great as his defense would be for this team, the offense would probably score about 7-12 less ppg, just because he cant shoot for shit.

[JMarkJohns]

indeed, but there has been a BIG increase in the talent levels in the league since then. Marion may not even make the all star team this year, even with Nash.

second, remember how shitty this team was, before Nash came? they had the worst record in the west. shows that Amare and Marion were NOT capable of carrying this team on their own. they are talented players, but do not know how to lead a team, or be a #1 option.

Which is a big reason why Nash is so important. Yes, perhaps Amare and Marion get their own without him, but the percentages would take a dive and the turnovers would rise.

Nash makes it work.

Though, before the surgery, I do think Amare was capable. I have yet to see such since his return, but there's still potential as he's now smarter and more fundamentally sound.

[stretch]

Which is a big reason why Nash is so important. Yes, perhaps Amare and Marion get their own without him, but the percentages would take a dive and the turnovers would rise.

Nash makes it work.

Though, before the surgery, I do think Amare was capable. I have yet to see such since his return, but there's still potential as he's now smarter and more fundamentally sound.
agreed. now, there is no question that Marion and Amare are great players. especially Amare. they are freaks of nature, athletically. but Nash is the key to the team's success.

[mFFL03]

Nash didn't do well in Dallas in the final years because Don Nelson tried to run more set plays in the end.

They were trying to funnel through Dirk EVERYTIME, they at that point, determined Dirk was the most clutch and versatile out of the big 3, and wanted to focus through him.

It got waaaaaaaaay too obvious at the end what they were trying to do in a halfcourt game. High screen n Roll with Nash and Dirk. Nash didn't focus on anyone else other than Dirk. Of course the defense picked up on it and killed em.

We still use the high pick n roll, but if its not there we move on with players who arent afraid to make a move to the basket or shoot a jumper. Or better yet......now we swing the ball like 6 times before shooting.

[JMarkJohns]

i cant agree with that. Nash is just as good of a passer as Kidd, but a FAR better shooter. that is one of the things that makes the Suns so fucking lethal, is Steve Nash's shooting ability. Kidd would be good in that system, but not NEAR as good as Nash. the ONLY thing that Kidd does better than Nash is defend, but as great as his defense would be for this team, the offense would probably score about 7-12 less ppg, just because he cant shoot for shit.

Beautiful! Someone who knows how the pic-n-roll works! Many, many props.

Still, this was only half his post. Anyone care to tackle his "Suns have more talent with Nash than Steve had in Dallas" statement? Maybe it all depends on your definition of talent, but if you think players like Raja Bell and Boris Diaw were as talented as the likes of Nick Van Exel, Juwan Howard, Antawn Jamison or Antoine Walker before they teamed up with Nash in Phoenix, than you have a lot to learn about talent vs. potential. Van Exel, Howard, Jamison and Walker were all legit stars before Dallas and three of the four were very good in for the Mavs (NVE: 18 ppg, 6 apg... JuHo: 17 ppg, 7 rpg... Jamison: 15 ppg, 6 rpg off the bench) while the fourth, along with proven centers like Bradley and LaFrentz gave quality production from the frontcourt.

Not counting youngins like Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels and, currently, Barbosa or role players like Delk, Laettner or House/TThomas... This is how you would rank the talent before any played a game with Nash.

Dirk > Amare Stoudemire
Finley > Shawn Marion
Jamison = Joe Johnson
Walker > Quentin Richardson
Van Exel >> Raja Bell
LaFrentz > KThomas
Howard >>> Jones or Diaw

Now, these ranking aren't "with-Nash" rankings, merely pre-Nash rankings. I don't think many thought Diaw would turn into the stud he's become when he was a 5-point, 3-rebound, 1+-assist bench bum.

Even proven stars like Amare, Marion and JJ had SIGNIFICANT bumps up in shooting percentage with Nash. Were talking a minimum of 4 percentage points to as much as 17 percentage point. Going from 44% to 48% from the field minimum to as much as 30% to 47% from range maximum.

Nash means more than just points and rebounds in the statistical column. He improves every largely every player's percentages.

One can just browse basketballreference.com to see how much proven talent Dallas had as compared to the now Nash-led/fed talent of Phoenix.

[RonMexico]

indeed, but there has been a BIG increase in the talent levels in the league since then. Marion may not even make the all star team this year, even with Nash.

second, remember how shitty this team was, before Nash came? they had the worst record in the west. shows that Amare and Marion were NOT capable of carrying this team on their own. they are talented players, but do not know how to lead a team, or be a #1 option.

Are you an idiot? They traded away Marbury for nobody and had a coaching change in the middle of the season. Amare also missed 25 games that year. Also, your earlier post was incredibly ignorant. Amare has taken over a few games on his own this year, but it simply was not needed against New York and it was probably a shrewd adjustment by the players and coaches to get Amare easy buckets. What I don't understand is all of you out there wanting all the Suns players to "prove" they can go one-on-one and hit shots while triple-teamed. The goal is to play to their strengths, which is the pick-and-roll and 3 point shooting.

[RonMexico]

Josh Howard is putting in an all-star performance tonight. Oh, wait, nevermind, he must have started believing his own hype and gotten cocky again.

[RonMexico]

Nominally, the Mavs of old had much better talent. D'Antoni is simply a better coach and Nash is simply a better player than those Dallas years. Those Mavs were like the Lakers team of Malone, Payton, etc. They were so full of talent, but it took TEAM play from Detroit to put them in their place.