When Tmac is droppin 37pts on Bowen, what exactly is his use?

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Bowen does NOTHING on offense, but is this defensive specailist, but when he's letting people like Tmac, Lebron, Kobe, and every other all star, light him up he is making the Spurs play 4 on 5.


Bowen is becomming useless despite what everyone thinks and HE should be on the trading block as well as Barry and Beno

[Budkin]

Didn't TMac score most of his points when Bowen was out of the game? I believe that is the case as was pointed out in a post yesterday by Kori.

[SequSpur]

It's about time somebody brought this shit up..

[nkdlunch]

TMAC would have probably had 50+ if not for Bowen.

Do you really think Barry/Finley/Manu can guard TMAC better than Bowen? :lmao

[Extra Stout]

Bowen does NOTHING on offense, but is this defensive specailist, but when he's letting people like Tmac, Lebron, Kobe, and every other all star, light him up he is making the Spurs play 4 on 5.


Bowen is becomming useless despite what everyone thinks and HE should be on the trading block as well as Barry and Beno
I think timvp pointed out that TMac did most of his damage while Bowen was on the bench.

However, Bowen clearly is not what he was a couple of years ago.

Also, in the past, Bowen's defensive skills were made to shine a bit more because the defense of the rest of the team was at least competent.

Today, if Udrih, Finley, or Elson are on the floor, their defense is so bad it compromises the entire defensive scheme, no matter what Bowen does individually.

[cornbread]

Did anybody else see the steal that Bowen had that almost won the game for us?

Bowen is a step slower than he used to be but he is still one of the great defenders in the league. Who can stop T-Mac when he's on fire anyways?

[Kermit]

i am in no way defending bowen, but tracy hit some pretty tough shots the other night. you have to remember, when he's on there probably isn't a player alive that can stop him. he's as streaky as they come.

[mardigan]

The point is without him, we would have Barry and Finley on him, then he could pull a Kobe against the Raptors last year. Maybe he isnt as good as he was, but he is the best we got and still one of the best in the league. Damn, Spur fans are turning on everyone

[Kori Ellis]

Look around to the other threads. Bowen actually did a reasonable job on TMac. If you watched the game, the 15 point swing from near the end of third to the middle of the fourth was with Bowen on the bench the whole time.

[ambchang]

I couldn't understand how people can call themselves "basketball fans" when they can't tell the difference between bad defense and getting scored on.

[mardigan]

I know, like all of the sudden Bowen cant play defense anymore, if anything its our team defense and rotations that at fault, not Bruce

[rascal]

Bowen should no longer be the starter getting starter minutes. He is just too big a liability on the offensive side to keep up with the top teams in the west who score.

He should only be used as a change of pace defensive disrupter. Problem is the spurs have never went out and got a good enough sf to be a starter. I wanted the spurs to make an offer to get Caron Butler since he entered the league.

He was traded twice and no word that the spurs even had any interest in trading for him. A good fo would have somehow found a way to land him or some other sf who would be worthy of starting by now instead of riding with Bowen for so long.

[MoSpur]

Bowen has lost a step. No doubt, but he still makes it hard for guys like that to drop all those points. He's always got a hand in their face and is always moving trying to annoy the guy he is on.

He is a liability on offense and has lost a step or two, but is still way better than Finley and Barry.

[mardigan]

Completely disagree with you, Bowen has never been a great offensive player and now you want him out? The big 3 take up enough shots without Bowen needing to play big on that side of the ball. He is a outlet for double teams on Tim who can hit threes. A player like Caron is good, but would take away so many shots from our big 3. Plus he is no Bowen on d.

[mardigan]

Every time TMac made a shot in that game when Bowen was in, he was up in TMacs shit everytime, hand in the face playing great d, their is only so much you can do against a great scorer.

[cornbread]

I know, like all of the sudden Bowen cant play defense anymore, if anything its our team defense and rotations that at fault, not Bruce

Yep, team defense and rotations are the liability that needs some fixin' at this point.

[Kermit]

my own opinion related to bruce and the offense isn't that he's lost a step, but that the offense has become stagnant and the ball rotations non-existent. he's a three-point threat and that's about it. now if you call him a liability, what do you call the other losers on the bench who would take his spot?

[mardigan]

Offensive and defensive liabilitys

[VaSpursFan]

bruce can only be as effective as the defensive scheme is. when that breaks down, bruce looks bad. bruce is excellent at staying in between his man and the basket and contesting shots. but if he gets picked or blown by on d, there's not much he can do. and once a top scorer finds his rythm, there's not much you can do but wait for them to cool off.

i understand the call for a more offensive minded 3 because then the opposing team will have to play d rather than sag off bruce because the only weapon in his arsenal is a spot up j. but what is the trade off? we would have to revamp our defensive scheme to accomodate this...is it worth it? if we were getting c. magg, i would say yeah because even though he sucks on d, he's a capable rebounder. bruce is great on d, but sucks at rebounding.

[mardigan]

And the fact that he can shoot the 3 effectively makes defenders not be able to sag off him that much, he does suck at rebounding though, our team overall except Dunc does not board very well

[VaSpursFan]

And the fact that he can shoot the 3 effectively makes defenders not be able to sag off him that much, he does suck at rebounding though, our team overall except Dunc does not board very well

sag was a poor choice of words...since he's a one trick pony, it makes him easier to guard, if they even guard him. if the defense chooses to gamble, they'll leave bruce and play the percentages with the 3 ball. A more dymanic 3, who could hit the 3 ball and create off the dribble for the mid-range j or the layup would make the opposing work on d and no player could rest up on the defensive end.
bruce's attempts at creating off the dribble causes me heartburn when defenders close out on him at the 3 pt line. :dizzy

[cornbread]

bruce can only be as effective as the defensive scheme is. when that breaks down, bruce looks bad. bruce is excellent at staying in between his man and the basket and contesting shots. but if he gets picked or blown by on d, there's not much he can do. and once a top scorer finds his rythm, there's not much you can do but wait for them to cool off.


Well said. In past seasons Bruce has had the luxury of the best help defense in the league. This allows him to get right up on a player and crowd him way more than your average defender would attempt. If the player made it past him it was no big deal. The help was always right there to make up for it. The help and rotations have not been tight this season and it ends up making Bruce look bad.

[Medvedenko]

I think Bowen is a great defender still...however not 1 man can shut down a star player, and it's the teams responsiblility to shut down a hot player. The rotations are coming late and if Duncan forgets to contest shots, it's over. That's what I see. Bowen still plays with fire and always in the face of the Kobe's, Tmac's of the world. He just can't do it alone.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

You guys are actually calling for more Finley and Barry?

[mardigan]

I think thats what this thread is about, people that want more Finley and Barry dont want the Spurs to win I think

[cornbread]

:lol

You guys are actually calling for more Finley and Barry?

Nope. I just want better team defense. No way should Bowen be losing minutes to those guys.

[Kermit]

more beno please...

[VaSpursFan]

:lol

You guys are actually calling for more Finley and Barry?

:lol :lol bowen in all of his offensive challenges is still >>>>>>> finley and barry. at least he brings d along with a decent 3 point shot. finley brings nothing on either end and barry brings a little on the offensive end but gets abused on the defensive end. you either have to shut your man down or outscore him to be effective. i'd rather have bruce play shut down d versus brick finley and brent scary trying to outscore guys.

[mardigan]

Finley and Beno suck balls, the Mavs are probably still laughing at us for the Finley pickup

[Kermit]

yeah, but at the time it seemed like a pretty good idea. he is a supreme ball-licker, though. jason terry didn't punch him in the nuts hard enough if you ask me.

[nkdlunch]

terry stated he didn't find any nuts

[polandprzem]

TMAC would have probably had 50+ if not for Bowen.

I do not know if tMac is that great al in all he is not averaging 50pts per game.

wait .. new messge PM

brb

[vanvannen]

Bowen's defense is not shinning so bright this year because the whole Spurs' system was designed to funnel scorers to the middle, where they would meet Tim Duncan and (oh yes) Rasho. Now this team has lost one shot blocker, and on top of that there are newcomers trying to learn the system.
It's not Bowen's fault, but still I think in this scenario his defense is less effective.

[polandprzem]

Another thing with Bowen is that the new rules do not let him do more, and what he was doing previusly.

He is getting old but still he is valuable to this team.
Not a contender but top8 in the leauge

[mardigan]

Its kind of sad how much I am starting to realize Rashos d was a huge help to Tim, although his offense was the worst ever

[Kori Ellis]

Bowen's defense is not shinning so bright this year because the whole Spurs' system was designed to funnel scorers to the middle, where they would meet Tim Duncan and (oh yes) Rasho. Now this team has lost one shot blocker, and on top of that there are newcomers trying to learn the system.
It's not Bowen's fault, but still I think in this scenario his defense is less effective.

This is the key.

Currently, a lot of times, Bowen is funneling to no one. :lol

[v2freak]

As is inevitable with age, I agree that Bowen has lost a step. But he's still our best one-on-one defender IMO.

[mardigan]

Iwas hoping Elson would be able to block some shots, but everyone who said he wasnt a shotblocker turned out to be right. We have no other shot blocker for the 1st time since the Duncan era. Hell, I would take Kevin Willis right now

[polandprzem]

Bowen's defense is not shinning so bright this year because the whole Spurs' system was designed to funnel scorers to the middle, where they would meet Tim Duncan and (oh yes) Rasho. Now this team has lost one shot blocker, and on top of that there are newcomers trying to learn the system.
It's not Bowen's fault, but still I think in this scenario his defense is less effective.


That's the spurs problem on D
They need to have team defense cause on 1-1 they are losing (D) with such teams like Dallas or even Phoenix.

We won't get the shot blocker with the interior D who is able to be in the spots dave was. So where to imrove the defense? As Pop do not want to change the whole concept of it?

[ChumpDumper]

We have no other shot blocker for the 1st time since the Duncan era. Hell, I would take Kevin Willis right nowAlso not a shotblocker. I have longer arms than T-Rex.

[Kermit]

i always wondered why willis never used his forehead to block shots. that dome takes up the entire lane.

[mardigan]

Also not a shotblocker. I have longer arms than T-Rex.
He scares the ball from going into the basket by mean mugging it

[ShoogarBear]

Bowen's defense is not shinning so bright this year because the whole Spurs' system was designed to funnel scorers to the middle, where they would meet Tim Duncan and (oh yes) Rasho. Now this team has lost one shot blocker, and on top of that there are newcomers trying to learn the system.
It's not Bowen's fault, but still I think in this scenario his defense is less effective.Actually, the classic Spurs defense was to funnel players to the baseline to meet the shotblockers. This is the reverse of what most defenses preach, and was the reason why it took some players a long time to learn the system.

[ArgSpursFan]

what about Kobe´s 35 pts and Dirk´s 37 pts against the spurs?

[ChumpDumper]

What about them?

Bruce isn't there to shut down every scorer every time.

[timvp]

With Bowen on the court, opponents score 6.8 less points per 100 possessions. As the season goes on, that number keeps rising. Not too long ago, that number was 4.1.

To compare, opponents score 5.9 more points per 100 possessions when Finley is on the court. And when Barry is on the court, opponents score 9.6 more points per 100 possessions. :wow

Bottomline is Bowen is still an effective defender, while Finley and Barry are two of the worst perimeter defenders in the league. Especially Barry.

[ArgSpursFan]

What about them?

Bruce isn't there to shut down every scorer every time.
so,where´s the catch, of him being out there on the floor???

[Kori Ellis]

what about Kobe´s 35 pts and Dirk´s 37 pts against the spurs?

Bowen wasn't really guarding Dirk. He was guarding Josh Howard for the most part.

But the basic concept is the same. If the system is to funnel players baseline toward the bigs and the bigs aren't there to contest, then it results in easy hoops.

Players are still going to get their points on Bowen, but he still is making them work. When he was on the bench in the Rockets game, TMac didn't miss and really got going. That stretch killed the Spurs where Pop left Manu out there without Tony, Tim or Bruce.

[mardigan]

Bottom line is that if you really think the Spurs are better off with Bowen on the bench and Finley or Barry on T Mac, or whoever, you might not know as much about basketball as you think you do

[ChumpDumper]

so,where´s the catch, of him being out there on the floor???He's there to make it difficult for scorers work within the team defense. He's doing his job. Others are not.

[ArgSpursFan]

Bottom line is that if you really think the Spurs are better off with Bowen on the bench and Finley or Barry on T Mac, or whoever, you might not know as much about basketball as you think you do

I´m saying that,if his not stoping the best perimetrals players like he used to,his presence on the floor is almost pointless,cause he is not a scorer,his 3´s are not falling and guys are playing out of their minds against him.I know the reffs are calling fauls diferent this year tham years ago,but we can´t just sit down and cry about it.let´s do something!

[Kori Ellis]

I´m saying that,if his not stoping the best perimetrals players like he used to,his presence on the floor is almost pointless,cause he is not a scorer,his 3´s are not falling and guys are playing out of their minds against him.I know the reffs are calling fauls diferent this year tham years ago,but we can´t just sit down and cry about it.let´s do something!

So the Spurs were +10 in the Rockets game with Bowen on the floor and they were -15 when he was off the floor. And you want Bowen off the floor more?
:wtf

[ChumpDumper]

Play Finley more!

[mardigan]

^^^^laughter ensues

[MrChug]

I really HONESTLY watched Bowen all flippin night at the game...even spilled my eight dollar beer when Tracy made tough shot after tough shot. I think his effort and positioning was amazing. Even MASTERFUL. But with most superstars...when they get that hot, no one man can stop them and that's what happened. Bowen defended very well.

[mardigan]

Toltally agree, I kept rewinding T Macs made shots, and every one of them, with the exception of one play on the baseline that Bowen overpursued and T Mac got a and one, Bowen was all up in T Macs shit, only a player like T Mac could make those shots

[Kori Ellis]

I´m saying that,if his not stoping the best perimetrals players like he used to,his presence on the floor is almost pointless,cause he is not a scorer,his 3´s are not falling and guys are playing out of their minds against him.I know the reffs are calling fauls diferent this year tham years ago,but we can´t just sit down and cry about it.let´s do something!


Another note, he's shooting 44% from 3. Fifth or so in the league.

[mardigan]

Ouch

[ArgSpursFan]

So the Spurs were +10 in the Rockets game with Bowen on the floor and they were -15 when he was off the floor. And you want Bowen off the floor more?
:wtf

kori,I know that you always go by the numbers,and I respect that.I look at the numbers too,but I don´t go by them to make a judgemnt.and you know better tham anybody that the spurs suck on the 3rd quarter and the bigginin of the 4 rd quarter since always,I don´t think It was a Bowen factor what puted us -15 in the game.it just happens all the time,and sometimes they´re strong enough to make a comeback and sometimes (like against the rockets)they come up short

[mardigan]

kori,I know that you always go by the numbers,and I respect that.I look at the numbers too,but I don´t go by them to make a judgemnt.and you know better tham anybody that the spurs suck on the 3rd quarter and the bigginin of the 4 rd quarter since always,I don´t think It was a Bowen factor what puted us -15 in the game.it just happens all the time,and sometimes they´re strong enough to make a comeback and sometimes (like against the rockets)they come up short
So what does that have to do with Bowen? Sounds more like a team problem

[ChumpDumper]

I don´t think It was a Bowen factor what puted us -15 in the game.TMac scored like 12 ponts in six minutes when Brice was sitting. Maybe that was a factor.

[ArgSpursFan]

Another note, he's shooting 44% from 3. Fifth or so in the league.

what about since the old ball came back?

[nkdlunch]

TMac scored like 12 ponts in six minutes when Brice was sitting. Maybe that was a factor.

or maybe it was that we couldn't hit a fucking shot. Had no offesive rebounding, and were turning the ball over more than a college team. and our offense was a complete mess. and Pop's lineups were atrocious. maybe it was related to that?

[ArgSpursFan]

So what does that have to do with Bowen? Sounds more like a team problem

It is a team problem,no doubt,but It got some to do the our perimetral D.and a poor perimetral Offense.

[wildbill2u]

TMac scored like 12 ponts in six minutes when Brice was sitting. Maybe that was a factor.
Wasn't Bowen guarding TMac in Houston when he scored 11 points in 44 seconds (or something like that) to beat us that time. What does that mean other than TMac can shoot like hell and score in bunches at times?

Everybody loves Bowen's D but when he plays some of these hot shooters he doesn't do much on the offensive end because he's using himself up.

If he isn't shooting or can't hit for around 8-10 and get a couple of rebounds, and his man is knocking down 25 then we have a terrible mismatch at the position.

If your man outscores you 25-2 then it really doesn't matter that you were guarding him close all night.

[bobbyjoe]

I think because of Bowen's reputation, guys like TMac, Kobe, etc really just want to stick it to him and that's exactly what they've been doing all year.

He's close to 36 years old. THIRTY SIX!

[johnpaulwall21]

maybe the -15 was with duncan sitting along side with bruce. the other teams score a lot without duncan there.

[exstatic]

what about since the old ball came back?
What do you care? Isn't that just a stupid number that somehow doesn't factor into the Argie emotional rant?

[MrChug]

TMac scored like 12 ponts in six minutes when Brice was sitting. Maybe that was a factor.

EXACTLY! FUCK BRICE!! That somemuhmuhbitch is gonna get a kick in the jewels if I ever see him!!

[ArgSpursFan]

What do you care? Isn't that just a stupid number that somehow doesn't factor into the Argie emotional rant?

well it looks like you just look at the stats when it comes to TP

[T Park]

this lunatic is all over the fucking place.

Prozac please, take it..

[SenorSpur]

While it may be easy to do, I'm not going to "pile on" Bowen here. He's as much of a warrior as anyone on this team. That's not to say he is without fault. I just happen to have an easier target to vent my "piss & vinegar-smelling" anger and contempt against - the front office.

Pop and R.C. are supposed to be the visonaries here. They are the ones who are supposed to chart the destiny of the franchise; making the right personnel moves; making sure the team is championship-level competitive each year of the Duncan era.

While Bowen may be very capable of playing 35+ mins every night - why does he have to? Because there's no one else on the roster who posesses his unique defensive skills. That's been a big problem for a couple of years. It was on full visual display during the WCSF vs the Mavs. When Bowen literally changed assignments from Dirk to Josh and back again from game to game - sometimes within the same game. There's simply not enough of him to go around. Having said all that, the Spurs FO have routinely "pushed the envelope" every year and failed to identifying a capable backup/understudy for him.

Bringing in both Barry and Finley in consecutive years was two big mistakes These two acquisitions, along with lacking a shot-blocking presence in the post, are a large part to blame for the diminished defens this year.

Of course, they would have never had to worry about identifying a backup for Bowen had they simply selected Josh Howard in the 2003 draft. (Don't get me started again on that one).

[x_roux_x]

Bowen is still ONE of the best D men in the league. But not nearly what he was a couple of years ago. He is getting old. And there is no one else on the team that can play as well of D as he can. It would be great for him to come off the bench next year with some pressure D and some spot up 3's but lets face it if that were to be the case he would be a waste of a roster spot IMO. I think this should be his last year in SA. And if not he should somehow get limites minutes nxt yr. But again, that doesnt really make sense to me either.
Next year lets say goodbye to Finley, Horry, Beno, Bowen, Fabricio, Vaughn, and J Butler. Thats alot to say goodbye to so I dont it will happen the way we want it to. But I know if the spurs dont get another championship this season or next then we may have to wait quite some time until the next Timmy or D Rob comes around...And what are the chances that that player exists and somehow falls to us? I am actually scared for my SPURS now... :cry