Suns' bench will do them in

[BradLohaus]

They will tire down the stretch. Look at the minutes of this box score. It's been like this for them all year.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270129016

[Burn531]

There like the Pistons from last year.

[RonMexico]

Yeah, I would like to see more bench usage. I just don't know how it would work because of the Suns' style of play. So much can happen in 2 minutes in any Suns game and so what difference is 34 minutes vs. 36 minutes for Nash? Also, I think Nash isn't exerting himself as much as last year, so all these minutes hopefully won't be as detrimental as last season. I also would like to see his rest in "real time" (i.e. when he goes out with 2 minutes left in the 1st quarter and comes back with 6-7 minutes left in the second, he could have had 15+ "true" minutes of rest.

Just a small observation, but I agree that I don't want them wearing down, but I just want Banks or Jumaine Jones to step up consistently. I also want Jalen Rose to play more because he has really good court vision and high b-ball intelligence, but maybe he's being saved for the playoffs. It's just that the past 2 years D'Antoni had so many role players step up like Eddie House, Jim Jackson, Steven Hunter that I wish he would give a couple of those guys opportunities in the first half to show what they got. The Suns will blow it in the 2nd half if they get too tired anyways, so the first half doesn't matter in the end.

[Cry Havoc]

So much can happen in 2 minutes in any Suns game and so what difference is 34 minutes vs. 36 minutes for Nash?

Well, not a lot. But if you consider 32 minutes is probably acceptable, given your average winning margin in January. And 4 minutes per game amounts to 328 minutes over the course of a season, excluding playoffs. A two minute decrease is obviously half that, and still significant if you ask me.

It's just an observation. Trust me, games hurt a lot less to lose now than in May and June.

[BradLohaus]

If D'Antoni isn't using Rose, Banks and company now then he won't be using them in the spring. And the 06 Pistons comparison is a good one I think, Burn531.

[RonMexico]

Well, not a lot. But if you consider 32 minutes is probably acceptable, given your average winning margin in January. And 4 minutes per game amounts to 328 minutes over the course of a season, excluding playoffs. A two minute decrease is obviously half that, and still significant if you ask me.

It's just an observation. Trust me, games hurt a lot less to lose now than in May and June.

Yeah, but I've seen games where the Suns lets teams go on an 11-0 run in just over a minute. So that's where I say so much can happen in the game. I would like to see Nash down to 34 or below. I think Marion, Barbosa, Diaw, and Amare (as long as the knee holds up) can play higher minutes.

And Brad, I don't know why he turned away from Rose when Jalen was provided some much needed spark early-on after he signed. Honestly, it baffles me.

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah, but I've seen games where the Suns lets teams go on an 11-0 run in just over a minute. So that's where I say so much can happen in the game. I would like to see Nash down to 34 or below. I think Marion, Barbosa, Diaw, and Amare (as long as the knee holds up) can play higher minutes.

And Brad, I don't know why he turned away from Rose when Jalen was provided some much needed spark early-on after he signed. Honestly, it baffles me.

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's better to be a healthy 2, 3, or even 4 or a 5 seed than an team who's got the best record in the league but is hurt or extremely tired at the very moment they need to perform. The longer you stretch players into the season, the more of an injury risk it is.

[dragon21]

Well, not a lot. But if you consider 32 minutes is probably acceptable, given your average winning margin in January. And 4 minutes per game amounts to 328 minutes over the course of a season, excluding playoffs. A two minute decrease is obviously half that, and still significant if you ask me.

It's just an observation. Trust me, games hurt a lot less to lose now than in May and June.

Agree. 328 minutes is equivalent to around 6 or 7 games of rest, cumulatively speaking. And PHX's playing style doesn't help either; although they seems to be literally just playing and toying around at times, their style consumes a lot of legs, and energy. They're the ultimate in sprint, but can they really pace themselves for this gruelling marathon of 82 games and muster enough strength to get 16 victories in the playoffs? or is D'Antoni just committing his team (and its shallow bench) to an atrocious strategy?

The next games against the Spurs and Jazz will reveal a lot about the Suns. I daresay that the SAS-PHX match-up will be a major turning point for either or both of these teams? Will SAS re-discover its greatness? or Will it highlight the theory that PHX style is still seriously flawed?

[Cry Havoc]

The next games against the Spurs and Jazz will reveal a lot about the Suns. I daresay that the SAS-PHX match-up will be a major turning point for either or both of these teams? Will SAS re-discover its greatness? or Will it highlight the theory that PHX style is still seriously flawed?

I think it's a bit early to be saying. The Spurs, Suns, and Mavs are all capable of winning a title, but only if completely healthy come playoff time. There's a chance one or two teams will see a significant injury between then and now (though I hope not). Right now, before the all-star break, it's just too hard to tell what type of ball the teams will be playing in four months.

I enjoy the concept of a statement game, or a "huge" regular season game, but I'm not sure they really pan out like expected.

That said, it will be a nice marker to see where each team stands. The Jazz are pretty banged up, but the Spurs-Suns matchup should be a lot of fun to watch.

[RonMexico]

Yeah, the Suns get a few days rest after their trip (going 4 out of 5 on that road swing isn't all bad...) to prepare for SA. Spurs will be coming off back-to-back at Utah, which is a plus for the Suns and hopefully they'll be trying to bounce back at home from that meltdown in Minnesota. Funny thing is, they were two buckets away from tying that game against the T-Wolves for a long stretch there, but just couldn't knock 'em down. But, they're a jumpshooting team and the ball isn't always going to fall their way.

[dragon21]

But, they're a jumpshooting team and the ball isn't always going to fall their way.

The very same weakness (and strength) that DAL have. They're (PHX and DAL) excellent jumpshooting teams, but jump shots don't always fall right. There are just those nights that the basket seems like a tea cup.

Anyway, DAL's main weapon now is its ability to shut down opponents on critical times, similar to Spurs'. DAL's primary weakness is its very predictable offense. They simply don't have a consistent third option. If JHo is having a bad night, DAL easily becomes defensible, (everybody knows where the ball is going now, it's marked in bold "41")

As for PHX, their offense is so efficient, so unpredictable, it's simply a matter of choosing your poison for most opponents. But PHX's achilles' heel is its inability to shut down opponents when it matters, as it always rely (and spoiled, in fact) on its offensive prowess. But what happens if the ball isn't going in? Well, one has only to see the replay of MIN-PHX to see what happens...

This, I think sums up why DAL is ARGUABLY better than PHX at this point.

At playoffs, "D" is almost always greater than offense. This made the Spurs the most boring, but definitely one of the most efficient and successful team in recent history. As for the "boring" part, I'd like to correct myself, it's either the Spurs or the Pistons. The LA dynasty would have been boring also without the endless Shaq-Kobe bickerings and drama, right? So, my theory is, you have to have that ability to lull your opponents to sleep to get a shot at championship. ;)

[Cry Havoc]

Personally though, I like watching shots get knocked into the 7th row of the crowd by a pissed forward-center who saw the shot coming about 4 years prior. That's every bit as likeable as a dunk, IMHO. I like watching a team just absolutely put the clamps on -- it's a thing of wonder. I know I'm in the minority there, though. :|

[mavsfan1000]

Personally though, I like watching shots get knocked into the 7th row of the crowd by a pissed forward-center who saw the shot coming about 4 years prior. That's every bit as likeable as a dunk, IMHO. I like watching a team just absolutely put the clamps on -- it's a thing of wonder. I know I'm in the minority there, though. :|
Better yet to control your block to get your teammate a chance to get the ball and get a fastbreak. Blocking out of bounce is entertaining but not the smartest move.

[TDMVPDPOY]

antoni only believes in 6 man rotation and play no d

[RonMexico]

I don't really know if anyone could have stopped KG tonight - the man was on fire in the 4th. It's not like he was getting uncontested dunks and layups, either... he was nailing fadeaway's from 15+ feet out. And I think he swished his last 6 buckets or so... just unconscious.

[mavsfan1000]

Phoenix makes big man look like superstars. Superstar big men turn into the second coming of Jordan against the suns. lol

[mabber]

I think it's a bit early to be saying. The Spurs, Suns, and Mavs are all capable of winning a title, but only if completely healthy come playoff time. There's a chance one or two teams will see a significant injury between then and now (though I hope not). Right now, before the all-star break, it's just too hard to tell what type of ball the teams will be playing in four months.
I enjoy the concept of a statement game, or a "huge" regular season game, but I'm not sure they really pan out like expected.

That said, it will be a nice marker to see where each team stands. The Jazz are pretty banged up, but the Spurs-Suns matchup should be a lot of fun to watch.

I agree. I've said all along that the team that is the healthiest of these 3 teams would probably come out of the west. The Mavs & Spurs can handle an injury to one of their support/bench players much better than the Suns can though.

[mabber]

Yeah, the Suns get a few days rest after their trip (going 4 out of 5 on that road swing isn't all bad...) to prepare for SA. Spurs will be coming off back-to-back at Utah, which is a plus for the Suns and hopefully they'll be trying to bounce back at home from that meltdown in Minnesota. Funny thing is, they were two buckets away from tying that game against the T-Wolves for a long stretch there, but just couldn't knock 'em down. But, they're a jumpshooting team and the ball isn't always going to fall their way.

And therein lies the difference between the Suns & the Mavs/Spurs (teams & fans).

The Mav's & Spur's players/coaches/fans would have said they were two defensive stops away from having a chance to win that game. I always hated that "if we shot better" mindset back in the Nellie days. Thank God for Avery's arrival and bringing the Spur's mindset.

[JMarkJohns]

I'll agree with this thread. Suns need a backup PG like Blake or Diener. Someone capable of running an offense as Banks is terrible and Barbosa is a scorer that can pass, rather than a point guard.

To a lesser extent they could use another center, though when he gets back, Thomas will have some fresh legs for the stretch run. I'd still like a center like Hunter or would even be willing to give Loren Woods a shot. Just to see.

[MrChug]

There like the Pistons from last year.

DANG! Beat me to it! (by 10 hours) haha

[LEONARD]

Yep...

And the fact that they're a different team when Nash is on the bench will do them in too....

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Have run-and-gun teams been successful in post season? I don't recall any teams going far that had this type offense.

[mabber]

Have run-and-gun teams been successful in post season? I don't recall any teams going far that had this type offense.

There have been a few up tempo offensive teams (see Lakers of 80's) that have won the title. This Sun offense is unique though. Their offense really isn't the issue though...it's their ability to make defensive stops late in playoff games that will always be in question until they win w/o doing that or they learn to do it.

[AZLouis]

antoni only believes in 6 man rotation and play no d

Antoni brings KT, James Jones, and Leandro Barbosa off the bench.

That's an 8 man rotation not 6. Right now it's 7 as KT is not expected back until early March. And if Marcus Banks could pull his head out of his ass they'd have a 9 man rotation.

KG was phenomenal last night. Boris Diaw defended him very well. There was nothing to be done with those turnaround fadeaways from 15 feet out.
----------

[johnpaulwall21]

come playoff time they will be worn out like a motha fucckka, and get eliminated thats facts. I dont think they can beat any texas team in the playoffs if all players on those teams are in the lineup.

[sribb43]

what bench?

[ponky]

And therein lies the difference between the Suns & the Mavs/Spurs (teams & fans).

The Mav's & Spur's players/coaches/fans would have said they were two defensive stops away from having a chance to win that game. I always hated that "if we shot better" mindset back in the Nellie days. Thank God for Avery's arrival and bringing the Spur's mindset.

Bingo, this was very apparent last night in the fourth quarter of the game. Another Suns fan just said "it was one of those nights" and "throw the tape away" but that's ridiculous because the Suns were so close to taking the game from the Wolves and in a close game situation against a relatively good team (Wolves, Mavs), they rely on the buckets. They REALLY need to pick up a decent backup PG.

KG was ridiculous last night but he had quite a bit of help spread throughout about 4-5 other players.

[Xylus]

5th game on a long road trip tends to be a hard one, especially when your team has won 17 straight. I don't think it was any indication of the state of the Suns, especially since it was against the Minnesota Timberwolves and because, you know, the 17 games prior. :D

I believe the Suns are going to make a trade here pretty soon for another active contributor, a back up PG or C, that'll help strengthen the bench. And when Kurt Thomas returns, we'll be much better off. For some reason, whenever KT goes down, our defense takes a hit.

[Axl Van Dam]

:wakeup That and their inability to play defense :wakeup

[RonMexico]

They need a true backup PG or need to take it out of LB's hands and put Diaw in charge of ball-handling/running the offense when Nash is out. It's pretty simple to run switch up your offense and run it through a post player, especially one with the court vision of Diaw.

[RonMexico]

Bingo, this was very apparent last night in the fourth quarter of the game. Another Suns fan just said "it was one of those nights" and "throw the tape away" but that's ridiculous because the Suns were so close to taking the game from the Wolves and in a close game situation against a relatively good team (Wolves, Mavs), they rely on the buckets. They REALLY need to pick up a decent backup PG.

KG was ridiculous last night but he had quite a bit of help spread throughout about 4-5 other players.

Yes and no. The Wolves hit 59% and they were on fire the whole night. With KG hitting EVERYTHING, they did need buckets to keep up. In other words, I couldn't have seen any other player hitting the types of shots he was last night (unblockable 15+ fadeaways) except maybe Dirk on his 50 point night. Once the Suns had to commit everyone (it seemed like all 5 guys were creeping in the lane), the Suns got killed by Foye and Jaric (don't get me started on Madsen) when they nailed wide open jumpers. They were very close even with 2 minutes left but shots that normal fall (12 foot runner by Nash) didn't and Amare was non-existent.

[Amare_32]

We are talking about a game that in May not even the Suns will remember much less us. It was the end of a road trip and KG was on fire. Every dog has his day. I doubt that the Wolves will play that well again.

[BradLohaus]

^I'm saying that the Suns starters have been playing too many minutes all year, and given their style of play, this is dangerous for them come playoff time. I was just using the Wolves game as an example. You could take alot of Suns box scores and do that. D'Antonti needs to ease off the accelerator for awhile.

[Amare_32]

^I'm saying that the Suns starters have been playing too many minutes all year, and given their style of play, this is dangerous for them come playoff time. I was just using the Wolves game as an example. You could take alot of Suns box scores and do that. D'Antonti needs to ease off the accelerator for awhile.

That maybe but this whole bench thing is a little overrated. Last year the Mavs made it to the Finals with basically Stackhouse and Diop as the only bench players opposing teams took notice of. I doubt Armstrong and Daniels kept Popovich,D'Antoni and Riley up at night. However the Suns could use a point guard to back up Nash Banks does not cut it. Also they could use a Center to either back up Amare or allow him to slide to power forward. As it is right now though the Suns have enough to win.

[BradLohaus]

The bench aspect is probably overrated more and more as you go through the playoffs, but you don't want to be worn out, especially with the Suns style. I remember in game 7 of the 05 Finals the Spurs bench was Horry and Barry, plus Devin Brown for about a minute.

[Amare_32]

The bench aspect is probably overrated more and more as you go through the playoffs, but you don't want to be worn out, especially with the Suns style. I remember in game 7 of the 05 Finals the Spurs bench was Horry and Barry, plus Devin Brown for about a minute.


I agree, I would hope that as the season goes on and the Suns lock up one of the top 3 seeds that Nash,Marion and Stoudemire start playing reduced minutes. I would be happy winning 50 games and earning the 3rd seed if it means a rested and fresh Marion,Nash and Amare. We have to wait to see if the Suns make any trades before the deadline.

[Xylus]

I agree that D'Antoni is doing a poor job of managing minutes.

But I think it's foolish to definitively say that it will "do them in." The playoffs aren't here, so there's no way of telling.

[Amare_32]

I agree that D'Antoni is doing a poor job of managing minutes.

But I think it's foolish to definitively say that it will "do them in." The playoffs aren't here, so there's no way of telling.

I don't think it will do them in as they have made the West Finals the last 2 years winning some tough series with the Mavs,Clippers and Lakers. Mind you they have won those series with injuries. Johnson in 05 and Amare,Bell and Thomas in 06. Still he needs to find a way down the road to cut down the minutes for Nash and if possible Marion and Stoudemire.

[BradLohaus]

But I think it's foolish to definitively say that it will "do them in." The playoffs aren't here, so there's no way of telling.

You might be right, I just wanted to put myself on record. If the Suns win it all or none of their starters look particularly worn down in the series they lose then I will admit that I was wrong about the Suns' short bench, and therefor large starters' minutes in the regular season, being their downfall.

[RonMexico]

Yeah, and those injuries in the past two years haven't been fatigue related (Joe Johnson - freak accident; Kurt Thomas - stress fracture; Amare - surgery). Now, Nash's deterioration and back problems have been fatigue related in the past 2 years, BUT this is the first summer in a long time that he has dedicated strictly to conditioning and personal training. Like there's no way to tell if this pace will wear the Suns down come April/May, there's no way to tell if Nash not playing soccer or for the Canadian National Team will help him deeper into the playoffs, because theoretically he would need to make it through 2 extra playoff series (WCF win and then the Finals).

Still, I know he has changed his personality this season to a more serious one, and we've seen what he can do when he's pissed (i.e. almost 3 straight triple-doubles against Dallas in 05 WCSF), so maybe his determination can help him grit his teeth and pull out some extra energy. Since he is the team leader, the rest of the guys should feed off his energy and hopefully lead to a better team effort. But again, this thread is just full of a lot of speculation and I'm simply adding to it.

[mabber]

Yeah, and those injuries in the past two years haven't been fatigue related (Joe Johnson - freak accident; Kurt Thomas - stress fracture; Amare - surgery). Now, Nash's deterioration and back problems have been fatigue related in the past 2 years, BUT this is the first summer in a long time that he has dedicated strictly to conditioning and personal training. Like there's no way to tell if this pace will wear the Suns down come April/May, there's no way to tell if Nash not playing soccer or for the Canadian National Team will help him deeper into the playoffs, because theoretically he would need to make it through 2 extra playoff series (WCF win and then the Finals).

Still, I know he has changed his personality this season to a more serious one, and we've seen what he can do when he's pissed (i.e. almost 3 straight triple-doubles against Dallas in 05 WCSF), so maybe his determination can help him grit his teeth and pull out some extra energy. Since he is the team leader, the rest of the guys should feed off his energy and hopefully lead to a better team effort. But again, this thread is just full of a lot of speculation and I'm simply adding to it.

Nash will need the energy in a playoff series vs. the Mavs as Dallas will use 4-5 different defenders against him throughout the games/series to try to wear him down. They'll use Harris, Terry (hopefully not too much), Howard, Buckner and even D.George against him. Of course, Nash can beat all those guys but the point will be to wear him down. I'm guessing that Buckner will be used specifically to be physical with him (meaning Buckner will be in foul trouble a lot :lol )

[dallaskd]

suns bench will do them in.."the ass?"

[dallaskd]

no but the reason dallas is better is beacuse of their deeper bench and better rebounding.

[RonMexico]

No, the starters are doing them in tonight. They want to start a more impressive 17-game losing streak.

[dallaskd]

that would be more suprising, but im afraid boston will hit it first.