Man for Man--We're #3--at best

[wildbill2u]

It's time to face up to the truth. We aren't close to being the best team in the West.

Go to the NBA.com site and run comparisons man-for-man and you'll see that the problems start with players that play the majority of the minutes. Forget about 'intangibles' like playing on Championship teams and all the rest.

Bottom Line: If you were an opposing GM would you trade for our starting five (Duncan, Oberto, Bowen, Parker, Ginobili) even up?

Phoenix: Amare, Marion, Diaw, Raja Bell, Nash.
Their front line kills us and the Manu/Bell matchup is no better than a push with Nash >Parker. Barbosa is better 6th man than anyone on our bench. Phoenix > Spurs so GM would not trade his for ours.

Dallas: Dampier, Howard, Dirk, Terry, Harris.
Front line superiority again gives the nod to the Mavs although we have a slight statistical edge at Guard. Bench is much deeper than Spurs.
Dallas > Spurs so GM would not trade his for ours.

LALakers and Utah both have starting fives with some problems (Bynum is a rookie for example) but they probably equal ours or might even be slightly better by the end of the season. Even so, given our obvious limitations (age, one-dimensional SF, bad C) especially on the front line, I doubt they'd trade us even up.

Although mediocre talent and inconsistency from the bench digs us deeper into mediocrity, the problem with the Spurs starts at the linup that plays most of the game minutes, not the bench.

[timvp]

Manu/Bell matchup is no better than a push

In what universe?

The Spurs have always had less talent than most teams on their way to championships. They've won series where their second best player wouldn't start on the opposing team.

The Spurs have always relied on teamwork and defense to win. That's what is not there this year so far.

[Leetonidas]

Enough with these fucking topic already, Jesus.

[themvp]

Enough with these fucking topic already, Jesus.

[wildbill2u]

In what universe?

The Spurs have always had less talent than most teams on their way to championships. They've won series where their second best player wouldn't start on the opposing team.

The Spurs have always relied on teamwork and defense to win. That's what is not there this year so far.
Actually, their head to head stats are pretty close and Raja may be better on individual defense. But I said, let's not quibble about intangibles or past history.

Whether you can win in today's game with what worked in the past is yet to be proved. Losing generals always build their armies to fight the last war while their enemies build to fight the war they can win in the present.

So the question remains. You are the Phoenix or Dallas or Lakers or Utah GM?
Would you trade yours for ours? Seems like an easy question to answer.

[SpursErie]

#3 in the Western Conference? How about #3 by a large margin in Texas? I saw this coming with the small ball off season moves so fortunately I traded my League Pass for Full Court this season so I can watch a team which isn't embarassed by its big men- the Florida Gators. Tim is playing much better than his injury plagued last season but with his low budget big man help the Spurs are getting beat up on the boards and inside so now the team has gone from the Twin Towers (Tim and the Admiral, two championships, Tim and Rasho-Nazr, one championship) to the Tin Tower (Tim and the four dwarfs, first previewed in the Laker playoff sweep of 2001).

[timvp]

Would you trade yours for ours? Seems like an easy question to answer.

Talking starting fives only, I like the Spurs' starters in the playoffs.

Dallas
Parker > Terry
Manu > Harris
Bowen < Howard
Tim > Dirk
Elson < Dampier

That's three out of five in the Spurs' favor. And the difference between Dampier and any other other starting center in the league isn't that much.

Phoenix
Parker < Nash
Manu > Bell
Bowen < Diaw
Duncan > Marion
Elson < Stoudemire

This one is 3-2 in favor of the Suns, but then again Duncan is by far the best player of the ten. Parker has a history of defender Nash as well as anyone in the league. Manu always destroys the Suns. Bowen always shuts down Marion. And Stoudemire isn't the same player he was two years ago. I'd take the Spurs' starting five any day of the week.

Where the Spurs have trouble matching up with these teams is off the bench. Both have much more firepower off the bench and that could be the difference. The Spurs' bench is old and slow ... however, if the Spurs get big time performances out of a couple bench players (Finley, Horry, Barry or Bonner), then that'd put them right in the mix.

Bottomline is the Spurs' big three is better than any three another team could put on the court. If the Spurs can get inspired player from a role player (like Jaren Jackson in '99, Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose in '03 and Robert Horry in '05), the Spurs will be tough to eliminate.

[1Parker1]

I'm not sure I understand this thread: "Man for Man we're #3 at best"....um we do have the third best record in the league to say this, so what exactly is the argument?

If you're comparing our starting 5 vs the starting 5 of other top contenders, that's hard to do. Firstly, because this is still the regular season and you are comparing our players who have vast championship experience to players who've barely played in 1 NBA Finals. You can argue that Dirk is playing better than Duncan right now or that Terry is playing better than Parker right now, but if you look at the Dallas series last year, both players took their games up a notch in that series.

No one is doubting that the Spurs are far behind these teams in terms of having the intangibles and holes in their lineup. But, you are far behind in your analysis if you seriously think that the reason we suck is because of Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili. When 3 of your top bench players are shooting 36% and you have no backup PG and no Center, you're going to lose games.

[Amarelooms]

Talking starting fives only, I like the Spurs' starters in the playoffs.

Dallas
Parker > Terry
Manu > Harris
Bowen < Howard
Tim > Dirk
Elson < Dampier

That's three out of five in the Spurs' favor. And the difference between Dampier and any other other starting center in the league isn't that much.

Phoenix
Parker < Nash
Manu > Bell
Bowen < Diaw
Duncan > Marion
Elson < Stoudemire

This one is 3-2 in favor of the Suns, but then again Duncan is by far the best player of the ten. Parker has a history of defender Nash as well as anyone in the league. Manu always destroys the Suns. Bowen always shuts down Marion. And Stoudemire isn't the same player he was two years ago. I'd take the Spurs' starting five any day of the week.

Where the Spurs have trouble matching up with these teams is off the bench. Both have much more firepower off the bench and that could be the difference. The Spurs' bench is old and slow ... however, if the Spurs get big time performances out of a couple bench players (Finley, Horry, Barry or Bonner), then that'd put them right in the mix.

Bottomline is the Spurs' big three is better than any three another team could put on the court. If the Spurs can get inspired player from a role player (like Jaren Jackson in '99, Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose in '03 and Robert Horry in '05), the Spurs will be tough to eliminate.

You my friend are a retard. Ducan greater than Dirk? HAHAHA not really pretty much a wash. Parker and Terry are a wash as well.
The Mavs bench >>>>>>>>> Spurs and that's all that matters

[1Parker1]

You my friend are a retard. Ducan greater than Dirk? HAHAHA not really pretty much a wash. Parker and Terry are a wash as well.
The Mavs bench >>>>>>>>> Spurs and that's all that matters

Duncan and Dirk a wash? Get back to me when Dirk leads his team to a championship and wins 2 MVP's and 3 Finals MVP's. Better yet, get back to me when Dirk plays defense like Duncan in the paint. Typical Mavs fan who doesn't realize that the game is played at both ends of the floor.

[Amarelooms]

Duncan and Dirk a wash? Get back to me when Dirk leads his team to a championship and wins 2 MVP's and 3 Finals MVP's. Better yet, get back to me when Dirk plays defense like Duncan in the paint. Typical Mavs fan who doesn't realize that the game is played at both ends of the floor.

Where is your MVP as your team is sucking ass now? Mr. clutch from the FT line too huh lol. Duncan is better on D and in the post but Dirk creates just as much a matchup problem and can actually shoot 3's and FT's.

Despite what you homers think it's a wash....wouldn't be surprised if more GMs/coaches would take Dirk over Duncan right now. No one gives a shit about what he did in the past my friend.....

[Leetonidas]

Dirk and Duncan a wash? Let's look at last years stats...

2006 Conference Semi-Finals...

Duncan: 32.3 ppg, 11.7 rebs

Dirk: 27.1 ppg, 13.3 rebs

While Dirk averaged 1.5 more rebounds (mainly because of small ball), Tim Duncan average over 5 more points per game. That's a pretty big difference. Tim Duncan is still > Dirk.

[timvp]

You my friend are a retard. Ducan greater than Dirk? HAHAHA not really pretty much a wash. Parker and Terry are a wash as well.
The Mavs bench >>>>>>>>> Spurs and that's all that matters

http://en.epochtimes.com/news_images/2006-6-21-wade.jpg

[Amarelooms]

Dirk and Duncan a wash? Let's look at last years stats...

2006 Conference Semi-Finals...

Duncan: 32.3 ppg, 11.7 rebs

Dirk: 27.1 ppg, 13.3 rebs

While Dirk averaged 1.5 more rebounds (mainly because of small ball), Tim Duncan average over 5 more points per game. That's a pretty big difference. Tim Duncan is still > Dirk.

AHAHAHAHAHAH retard logic...Ducan gets the ball more. I know the truth hurts but Dirk is on the same level as Duncan if not better :elephant

[wildbill2u]

I'm not sure I understand this thread: "Man for Man we're #3 at best"....um we do have the third best record in the league to say this, so what exactly is the argument?

If you're comparing our starting 5 vs the starting 5 of other top contenders, that's hard to do. Firstly, because this is still the regular season and you are comparing our players who have vast championship experience to players who've barely played in 1 NBA Finals. You can argue that Dirk is playing better than Duncan right now or that Terry is playing better than Parker right now, but if you look at the Dallas series last year, both players took their games up a notch in that series.

No one is doubting that the Spurs are far behind these teams in terms of having the intangibles and holes in their lineup. But, you are far behind in your analysis if you seriously think that the reason we suck is because of Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili. When 3 of your top bench players are shooting 36% and you have no backup PG and no Center, you're going to lose games.
I'm not dissing our Big Three. They deserve every bit of credit for keeping us in the games we win or lose. But the game is played by five players on the floor.

Everyone agrees that C is a problem, but despite everyone's agreement over the years that SF is a problem, Bowen is such an 'untouchable' that no one will admit the truth--he's a one dimensional player who doesn't match up well when we play against teams with good players at that position.

It's like we're playing 3 on 5 against the top teams. Forget the so-called 'intangibles' and terrible bench. Our best five aren't as good as their best five.

Any thoughts that this team is likely to play 'over its head' and make its way into the Finals is whistling past the graveyard. It could happen, but we'd have to be very lucky.

[td4mvp21]

Where is your MVP as your team is sucking ass now? Mr. clutch from the FT line too huh lol.


Uh, he's here putting up the type of numbers he always does. He's probably the reason we haven't lost more games as of late.

[wildbill2u]

Talking starting fives only, I like the Spurs' starters in the playoffs.


Bottomline is the Spurs' big three is better than any three another team could put on the court.
[Sigh] If only the NBA played three-on-three!

[timvp]

[Sigh] If only the NBA played three-on-three!

Read that other part you quoted where I said I also like the Spurs' starters compared to anyone's.

[Leetonidas]

AHAHAHAHAHAH retard logic...Ducan gets the ball more. I know the truth hurts but Dirk is on the same level as Duncan if not better :elephant
Yes...Duncan gets the ball more because he is better. Dumbass.

[Amarelooms]

Yes...Duncan gets the ball more because he is better. Dumbass.

Wrong again genius...his TEAM is not as good. Thus he needs to get the ball more for the Spurs to have a chance. Dirk on the other hand defers to his teammates who are young and can actually contribute. :elephant

[ChumpDumper]

Why is everyone starting new threads such as this acting like they're bringing down stone tablets from the mountain?

[leemajors]

Wrong again genius...his TEAM is not as good. Thus he needs to get the ball more for the Spurs to have a chance. Dirk on the other hand defers to his teammates who are young and can actually contribute. :elephant

yeah duncan is the most selfish player in the league, he's always looking to get his and never defers to his teammates. maybe you should make up your mind as to which team you bandwagon before you go off spouting nonsense.

[jaffies]

Why is everyone starting new threads such as this acting like they're bringing down stone tablets from the mountain?



http://www.jonco48.com/blog/15_commandments.jpg


Thou shalt not read other threads before posting one of your own about the same thing.

[Big Shot Rob]

I agree.

Even if another team is better...

As we know--the games still have to be played--and the team with superior stats don't always win.

AT this point--I'd say we still beat the Suns in a seven game series, but barring injury, the Mavs are the best in the West and we'd have to have a really tremendous effort (and a few breaks along the way) to get past the Mavs.

But hell--that could change.

I'm not as despondent as I was a couple of days ago.

[DubMcDub]

Duncan and Dirk a wash? Get back to me when Dirk leads his team to a championship and wins 2 MVP's and 3 Finals MVP's. Better yet, get back to me when Dirk plays defense like Duncan in the paint. Typical Mavs fan who doesn't realize that the game is played at both ends of the floor.

How many championships or MVPs Duncan has has absolutely nothing to do with who is a better player right now. Dirk is having a much, much better season and right now is a much better player. Period.

[itzsoweezee]

Talking starting fives only, I like the Spurs' starters in the playoffs.

Dallas
Parker > Terry
Manu > Harris
Bowen < Howard
Tim > Dirk
Elson < Dampier




if only popovich would actually play that lineup. we all know that when it comes playoff time, elson will be on the bench and finley or barry will be playing in his place. and that makes howard, dampier, harris, terry only that much better. again it's gonna be a layup drill for those guys and the spurs are going to get killed on the glass.

a lot of people talk shit about elson, but he does what the spurs need most: he gets rebounds and he can prevent easy layups. all this shit about his hands and rotations, i don't give a fuck about. that's far down the list of the problems facing the spurs, while poor rebounding and poor interior defense is high up on the list.

[exstatic]

We've never had the best talent in the West, EVER. We beat the Lakers twice (99,03) being under-manned, talent-wise. Phoenix was more talented in 05.

If you go by rosters, SA would have never won a title.

[1Parker1]

How many championships or MVPs Duncan has has absolutely nothing to do with who is a better player right now. Dirk is having a much, much better season and right now is a much better player. Period.

:wtf Who cares about "Right Now?" It's still the regular season, anything can happen in the playoffs. Case in Point, Dirk was playing great last playoffs...cue in to Game 3-6 of the NBA Finals last season, and he wasn't playing so well was he? He still had a great regular season run last year too, didn't he?

Obviously the Mavs are a better team than the Spurs right now. Anyone who watches basketbal can see that. Mavs may arguably even be the best team in the league right now. However, many Mavs fans have a bad habbit of just looking at the stats to make grand proclamations. Look again at Tim Duncan the past 5 or 6 games and tell then tell me that Dirk is playing better basketball than him....on both ends of the floor.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:wtf Who cares about "Right Now?" It's still the regular season, anything can happen in the playoffs. Case in Point, Dirk was playing great last playoffs...cue in to Game 3-6 of the NBA Finals last season, and he wasn't playing so well was he? He still had a great regular season run last year too, didn't he?

Obviously the Mavs are a better team than the Spurs right now. Anyone who watches basketbal can see that. Mavs may arguably even be the best team in the league right now. However, many Mavs fans have a bad habbit of just looking at the stats to make grand proclamations. Look again at Tim Duncan the past 5 or 6 games and tell then tell me that Dirk is playing better basketball than him....on both ends of the floor.


Damn 1Parker1, you're getting more and more attractive by the week! :lol

good post

[boutons_]

"Mavs may arguably even be the best team in the league right now."

Who would argue they aren't? Their win rate now is 67-17

[wildbill2u]

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/15_commandments.jpg


Thou shalt not read other threads before posting one of your own about the same thing.
I wouldn't have posted this topic except all the other threads harp on our bench--back-up PGs and C and how ______ sucks (fill in Barry, Horry or Finley as desired.) These guys are problematic as effective players but they play limited minutes.

We're getting the shit kicked out of us at the 2 and 5 positions against well-balanced teams like Phoenix and Dallas.

[DubMcDub]

:wtf Who cares about "Right Now?" It's still the regular season, anything can happen in the playoffs. Case in Point, Dirk was playing great last playoffs...cue in to Game 3-6 of the NBA Finals last season, and he wasn't playing so well was he? He still had a great regular season run last year too, didn't he?

Obviously the Mavs are a better team than the Spurs right now. Anyone who watches basketbal can see that. Mavs may arguably even be the best team in the league right now. However, many Mavs fans have a bad habbit of just looking at the stats to make grand proclamations. Look again at Tim Duncan the past 5 or 6 games and tell then tell me that Dirk is playing better basketball than him....on both ends of the floor.

Foolish Mavs fans, looking at numbers to help determine who the best player is. What we were thinking? Obviously, a much more accurate method is to simply ask a Spurs fan which player is better. That's the only way to get a truly verifiable, scientific, undeniable answer. :lol :lol :lol :rolleyes

And, just to write at least one thing sans heavy sarcasm, looking at "both ends of the floor" still yields the result that Dirk is playing better basketball than Duncan right now and has been all season. You make some bizarre point that it's the regular season, as if that means we can't compare players. You can keep going on and on about how in the playoffs Duncan will be better than Dirk because he has 3 rings and 19 MVPs or whatever the hell, but it's all conjecture and honestly it means nothing.

I guess I'll just have to be comfortable in the fact that the Mavs are currently better than the Spurs, and that the former's superstar is playing better ball than the latter's.

[41times]

Talking starting fives only, I like the Spurs' starters in the playoffs.

Dallas
Parker > Terry
Manu > Harris
Bowen < Howard
Tim > Dirk
Elson < Dampier

That's three out of five in the Spurs' favor. And the difference between Dampier and any other other starting center in the league isn't that much.

Phoenix
Parker < Nash
Manu > Bell
Bowen < Diaw
Duncan > Marion
Elson < Stoudemire

.

I have one word for you.......BENCH.

First of all, Howard over Bowen might be enough to swing the top 5 in favor of the Mavs because the others are so close. And Dirk will out score Timmy 3 nights out of 4.

But regardless, it's all about the 6-9 guys who make the difference. So let's compare those: I like your Oberto guy but he is about it off the bench.

George>
Stack>
Diop>
Buckner>

[nkdlunch]

I hate to agree with a guy called amarelooms but he is correct.
in the playoffs:
parker = terry
manu > harris
bowen < howard
tim = dirk
elson/oberto < dampier

and mavs bench >>>>>> spurs bench
also
Mavs have roleplayers, Spurs don't have any

[nkdlunch]

We've never had the best talent in the West, EVER. We beat the Lakers twice (99,03) being under-manned, talent-wise. Phoenix was more talented in 05.

If you go by rosters, SA would have never won a title.

not true. again, spurs used to have deepest team in the league with powerful bench those previous years, now we have shit.

[Man In Black]

No..technically what we have is a bench that potentially could rise up given a playoff schedule that lets teams rest in-between games and experienced players.

I am a strong believer in that you don't have to have the best regular season record in the L, to win the title. I think that at times, the coaching staff can accept losses if there is a larger lesson to be learned.

Mavs fan loves to puff out the chest, but in reality, we all know that they worry for the playoffs. They all know that they have a physically strong team, but mentally...they could lose it. And that is what Mavs fan worries about. It's the main reason they are still the MAV-NOTS.

[wildbill2u]

The criticism of Bowen used to be hidden under the euphemism of the "long 3" as though we were OK as a dominant teadm except in a couple of individual matchups like Dirk.

But it really didn't matter that much in the long run because teams like Phoenix and the Mavs couldn't play at our level and didn't have the dominant players equal to our Big Three.

Euphemisms and excuses and psychobabble about 'intangibles' and past history will repeat are no longer possible. The lack of an athletic long three who can also score in double figures is hurting us in lots of ways--rebounding, interior defense and the fact that the opponents can ignore Bowen on offense and double up on our Big Three with impunity.

[SOFT SPURS]

I hate to agree with a guy called amarelooms but he is correct.
in the playoffs:
parker = terry
manu > harris
bowen < howard
tim = dirk
elson/oberto < dampier

and mavs bench >>>>>> spurs bench
also
Mavs have roleplayers, Spurs don't have any


This is not looking good!!!!!!!!!!! :bang :bang :bang :bang

[Man In Black]

rebounding, interior defense and the fact that the opponents can ignore Bowen on offense and double up on our Big Three with impunity.

It's not even about Bowen, there are some players that help a team win by just playing with maximum effort on the D side of the court. Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen aren't players that you would consider offensive threats but their D is what makes them who they are. Where the double up hurts is when designated role players are given wide open shots on the basis of good play setup and then MISSING THEM ALL TO HELL.

Again, Bruce's role isn't to give the team 10 points per and play against the world's best perimeter scorers.

He has never scored more than 8.2 per. So if we're relying on him to make shots, then what is Barry, Finley, Horry, and Bonner supposed to be doing?

That is the issue. When these guys make shots...the Spurs win no matter who is on the court. That is why I feel, that the break between games is of great benefit to the Spurs and I'm willing to concede a few losses as long as the team plays to it's capabilities in April, May, & June.

[sandman]

How many championships or MVPs Duncan has has absolutely nothing to do with who is a better player right now. Dirk is having a much, much better season and right now is a much better player. Period.


So if your measurement for "right now" is that he leads in scoring, then yes, Dirk is a better scorer than Timmy. But Timmy leads in rebounds, blocked shots, assists, field goal percentage AND steals. That makes Timmy the more complete player. Period.

Tim has played at this same exact level since his rookie season. Dirk has been playing at this level the last two years.

Sustainability it was separates the two. That and 5 MVP's.