Things are about to get dicey for Tim Hardaway

[Findog]

Retired Miami Heat guard Tim Hardaway, known for his candor, said on a radio show Wednesday that he would not want a gay player on his team, would ask for him to be traded, and went so far as to say: ``You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.''

Hardaway was a guest with host/Herald columnist Dan Le Batard on Sports Talk 790 The Ticket, and at the end of the interview, Le Batard asked Hardaway how he would deal with a gay player, in light of last week's disclosure by retired NBA center John Amaechi that he is gay.

''First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team,'' Hardaway replied. ``And second of all, if he was on my team, I would really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that is right. I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room. But stuff like that is going on and there's a lot of other people I hear that are like that and still in the closet and don't want to come out of the closet, but you know I just leave that alone.''

Asked what he would do if he had a gay teammate, Hardaway said he would ask for the player to be traded or to be bought out of his contract.

''Something has to give,'' he said. ``And I think the majority of players would ask for him to be traded or they would want to be traded. Or buy him out of his contract and just let him go. Something has to give. If you have 12 other ballplayers in your locker room that are upset and can't concentrate and always worried about him in the locker room or on the court it's going to be hard for your teammates to win and accept him as a teammate.''

Hardaway is the first NBA player -- current or former -- to make anti-gay statements since Amaechi's news came out. In fact, most of the players and coaches quoted last week, including Heat center Shaquille O'Neal, were supportive of Amaechi and said they would not be bothered by a gay teammate.

What if the gay player were a great player, Hardaway was asked.

''If he were that great something would still have to give,'' he said. ``People would feel uncomfortable with that. If you're not gay, nobody in that locker room would feel comfortable with that person on your team.''

Amaechi probably will not be surprised when he reads Hardaway's comments. He said in a phone interview Tuesday he believes there is still a lot of homophobia in society and in professional sports locker rooms.

''We are much further behind than I'd like,'' Amaechi said. ``People in America and England [where Amaechi grew up] would like to think racism is over, sexism is over, and homophobia is over, but it's not. My coming out will show that gay people don't all look like Jack from Will and Grace. Some of us are big, athletic men, and that should be OK.''

Amaechi said he had not heard from a single former teammate or NBA player, that he had only heard from former coach Doc Rivers. He challenged straight athletes ''who feel able'' to stand up for gay rights.

''I would like professional male athletes to be active supporters, and that doesn't mean putting a rainbow decal on their car,'' he said. ``It means letting other guys in the locker room know that it's not OK to make gay jokes, that it's hurtful, and that it's not OK to be homophobic.

``But it's hard to get straight guys to step up. When men stood by women during the suffrage movement, they were called progressive and bold. When whites stood by blacks, they were heroes. But a straight guy standing up for a gay guy faces discrimination, and that's a big part of the battle we're fighting.''

[01Snake]

Hardaway makes anti-gay comments on radio
BY MICHELLE KAUFMAN
[email protected]


Retired Miami Heat guard Tim Hardaway, known for his candor, said on a radio show Wednesday that he would not want a gay player on his team, would ask for him to be traded, and went so far as to say: ``You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.''

Hardaway was a guest with host/Herald columnist Dan Le Batard on Sports Talk 790 The Ticket, and at the end of the interview, Le Batard asked Hardaway how he would deal with a gay player, in light of last week's disclosure by retired NBA center John Amaechi that he is gay.

''First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team,'' Hardaway replied. ``And second of all, if he was on my team, I would really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that is right. I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room. But stuff like that is going on and there's a lot of other people I hear that are like that and still in the closet and don't want to come out of the closet, but you know I just leave that alone.''

Asked what he would do if he had a gay teammate, Hardaway said he would ask for the player to be traded or to be bought out of his contract.

''Something has to give,'' he said. ``And I think the majority of players would ask for him to be traded or they would want to be traded. Or buy him out of his contract and just let him go. Something has to give. If you have 12 other ballplayers in your locker room that are upset and can't concentrate and always worried about him in the locker room or on the court it's going to be hard for your teammates to win and accept him as a teammate.''

Hardaway is the first NBA player -- current or former -- to make anti-gay statements since Amaechi's news came out. In fact, most of the players and coaches quoted last week, including Heat center Shaquille O'Neal, were supportive of Amaechi and said they would not be bothered by a gay teammate.

What if the gay player were a great player, Hardaway was asked.

''If he were that great something would still have to give,'' he said. ``People would feel uncomfortable with that. If you're not gay, nobody in that locker room would feel comfortable with that person on your team.''

Amaechi probably will not be surprised when he reads Hardaway's comments. He said in a phone interview Tuesday he believes there is still a lot of homophobia in society and in professional sports locker rooms.

''We are much further behind than I'd like,'' Amaechi said. ``People in America and England [where Amaechi grew up] would like to think racism is over, sexism is over, and homophobia is over, but it's not. My coming out will show that gay people don't all look like Jack from Will and Grace. Some of us are big, athletic men, and that should be OK.''

Amaechi said he had not heard from a single former teammate or NBA player, that he had only heard from former coach Doc Rivers. He challenged straight athletes ''who feel able'' to stand up for gay rights.

''I would like professional male athletes to be active supporters, and that doesn't mean putting a rainbow decal on their car,'' he said. ``It means letting other guys in the locker room know that it's not OK to make gay jokes, that it's hurtful, and that it's not OK to be homophobic.

``But it's hard to get straight guys to step up. When men stood by women during the suffrage movement, they were called progressive and bold. When whites stood by blacks, they were heroes. But a straight guy standing up for a gay guy faces discrimination, and that's a big part of the battle we're fighting.''

[ponky]

lmfao, dumbass hardaway, even if those are his feelings, why not just keep it to himself or when he's hanging with guys who feel the same way?!?!?!?

[Findog]

Cuban's hypothesis that bigoted remarks will result in bad things happening professionally is about to be put to the test. I always liked Tim Hardaway, guess I'll be revising my opinion of him.

[lefty]

http://www.dive-in.to/~h2/mtl/th.jpg

That Tim Hardaway?

[mavs>spurs2]

Way to go Tim

[ThomasGranger]

This from the guy who invented the "crossover."

[ponky]

This from the guy who invented the "crossover."

:lol :lol :lol

[atxrocker]

pennys comments are pretty ignorant. its ok to hold his position on the topic, but he just comes across as unprofessional and overly homophobic. what a tool.

[baseline bum]

That's messed up. Anyone with a belief system like that is a fucking retard.

[timvp]

pennys comments are pretty ignorant.

:angel

[lefty]

pennys comments are pretty ignorant. its ok to hold his position on the topic, but he just comes across as unprofessional and overly homophobic. what a tool.

It's TIM, not Penny

[atxrocker]

whoooops

[Leetonidas]

Damn, Tim Hardaway should've kept this to himself.

[adidas11]

I just heard about it on espnnews.

Tim Hardaway is a knucklehhead, that's for sure.

But I guarantee you, there are lots of others in the league who probably feel the same way.

[dave]

pennys comments are pretty ignorant. its ok to hold his position on the topic, but he just comes across as unprofessional and overly homophobic. what a tool.

penny?

[ABDENOUR POWER]

I thought this was an onion article until I saw it on ESPN. :lol

[Big Shot Rob]

Feeling it is one thing.

You can't say everything you feel on the fucking radio.

That show will be cancelled--just watch...

[Vizzini]

What a frickin' idiot. He has done nothing to endear himself to anyone and now will bring the back lash of gay rights group down on his dumbass. Hey dipshit, you get paid to do a job, go out and do it, cash your check and STFU!

[Fillmoe]

hardaway got a booking coming out too or some shit?

[Pistons < Spurs]

Sadly, many people in the NBA and in the world in general have the exact same thoughts/felings, if not worse.

While I am tolerant of and respect the gay community, I don't necessarily go out of my way to support them. But reading comments like that make me want to go to the next gay march or rally and offer some support so that they know everyone isn't a complete dickhead like Hardaway.

[jacobdrj]

Well, he has his money, and I guess he will do how he pleases, like Gibson...

He can say what he wants, but he is just dumb for doing it...

[Vizzini]

I am by no means a gay advocate, but it just comes down to doing you job and keeping your beliefs to yourself. If he is going to go off on some moral objection, there are far more immoral things going on within the NBA lifestlye than someone being homosexual

[ro_50]

I am by no means a gay advocate, but it just comes down to doing you job and keeping your beliefs to yourself. If he is going to go off on some moral objection, there are far more immoral things going on within the NBA lifestlye than someone being homosexual

Well said, Tim Hardaway should've kept those comments to himself. That shows his immaturity and just plain stupidity.

I know a lot of people think that way about gay people - I don't - but they are not voicing their opinion on the radio and he's a well-known figure in the basketball community. Stupid move.

[ducks]

it is about time someone tells the gays where they belong
good job tim

[dave]

http://www.nba.com/media/act_rudy_gay.jpg

i wonder what his response will be

[ducks]

I wonder what cuban responce will be?

[Vizzini]

http://www.nba.com/media/act_rudy_gay.jpg

i wonder what his response will be


:lol :lol :lol :lol

you know that joke has been out there for awhile, but I have yet to see it or think of it.

[Trainwreck2100]

:lol :lol :lol :lol

you know that joke has been out there for awhile, but I have yet to see it or think of it.


Oh please if those asshole rockets didn't trade him, they could have had a gay/head backcourt.

[mavs>spurs2]

He should have probably kept his comments to himself but I agree with him 100%.

[atxrocker]

let me know when you are a celebrity athlete who made millions by being in the public eye.

[mavs>spurs2]

let me know when the kings aren't getting blown out by double digits to teams with losing records

[atxrocker]

what the fuck does that have to do with this thread? way to stay on topic, mavs fan. what a complete douche.

[Jayem]

the radio interview:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/audio/Tim%20Hardaway%202-14-07.html

news story with video:
http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_045205258.html

[SilverPlayer]

You guys agreeing with Hardaway have a problem with this?
http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/lesbian_kiss.jpg

Cuz I sure as hell don't want to live in a world
where things like that don't happen.
Men kissing each other is just a byproduct.

[cornbread]

^^^If Tim has a problem with that then he must be gay!

[Flight3107]

it is about time someone tells the gays where they belong
good job tim


I agree, Tim Hardaway just said what everyone else is afraid to say.

[Flight3107]

You guys agreeing with Hardaway have a problem with this?
http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/lesbian_kiss.jpg

Cuz I sure as hell don't want to live in a world
where things like that don't happen.
Men kissing each other is just a byproduct.

2 Lesbians are cool AS LONG as they are hot. Rosie and Ellen, now I have a problem with that.

[StylisticS]

But I guarantee you, there are lots of others in the league who probably feel the same way.

Exactly. He is just saying what many players in the NBA and NFL would say. They may come on tv and the radio and say they don't care. But they don't like it themselves.

[johngateswhiteley]

i understand some of the uproar, but Tim can say whatever he wants. and while i disagree with him, at least he was honest....he was just answering questions given to him.

furthermore, why is the media/people insistent on blowing this out of proportion. its almost like they make it a point to make Tim pay for what he said or go on a crusade to change his mind or make him apologize.

what-the-fuck-ever. who gives a shit, he has his opinion just like everybody else. leave him alone.

[01Snake]

i understand some of the uproar, but Tim can say whatever he wants. and while i disagree with him, at least he was honest....he was just answering questions given to him.

furthermore, why is the media/people insistent on blowing this out of proportion. its almost like they make it a point to make Tim pay for what he said or go on a crusade to change his mind or make him apologize.

what-the-fuck-ever. who gives a shit, he has his opinion just like everybody else. leave him alone.

:tu

[Spurminator]

Controversial comments + slow sports news day = Spurminator listening to music at work.

[johngateswhiteley]

Controversial comments + slow sports news day = Spurminator listening to music at work.

probably for the best. i'm sure most of the comments will be idiotic.

[Vizzini]

He who doth protest too loudly...

[johngateswhiteley]

He who doth protest too loudly...

talking to me? explain?

[Vizzini]

no, not you, Tim Hardaway

[johngateswhiteley]

no, not you, Tim Hardaway

you think he took it too far? or perhaps he is gay himself?

[Vizzini]

Yes, I think he took it too far and made himself out to be an ignorant slug. He can have whatever opinion he wants, but to take to a level of "hate" and to say that his employer, who pays him to do a job would have to trade that gay player is just stupid. STFU Tim Hardaway. Is it so hard to just say that a gay teammate would make him a little uncomfortable but he would try his best to get thru it? It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

[Spurminator]

There's a very valid (and valuable) debate to be had on the subject. Unfortunately, Tim's perspective brings no more to the discussion than calling anyone who is uncomfortable with the situation a homophobic.

He has every right to express his opinion, but there shouldn't be any surprise that he's getting backlash.

[PMD]

What Tim said wasn't dumb nor does that make it wrong or incorrect. The manner in which he said it is what was in question. He is a man thats entitled to his opinions and he was not forcing that belief onto anyone that was willing to hear it. He shared his opinion just as John shared his. The thing that people missinterpreted is that what Tim hates isnt John himself, but the lifestyle that John chose. An no this isnt something on the scale of race! This is simply a choice another human being made to be what he wants to be and that doesnt condemn Tim anymore or any less than John.

[AFBlue]

it is about time someone tells the gays where they belong
good job tim

You do realize he said there was "no place for them on this earth" and "no place for them in america" right? So you'd be okay with the mass slaughter of all homosexuals? Because if they can't belong here, they either have to die or live on the moon.

[Flight3107]

You do realize he said there was "no place for them on this earth" and "no place for them in america" right? So you'd be okay with the mass slaughter of all homosexuals? Because if they can't belong here, they either have to die or live on the moon.


Just send them all to France

[50 cent]

He should have probably kept his comments to himself but I agree with him 100%.
So what are you going to do when Dirk comes out of the closet?

[fitzgerald]

On a serious note, who else in the NBA is rumored to be gay? I heard Richard Jefferson, anyone else?

[Extra Stout]

What Tim said wasn't dumb nor does that make it wrong or incorrect. The manner in which he said it is what was in question. He is a man thats entitled to his opinions and he was not forcing that belief onto anyone that was willing to hear it. He shared his opinion just as John shared his. The thing that people missinterpreted is that what Tim hates isnt John himself, but the lifestyle that John chose. An no this isnt something on the scale of race! This is simply a choice another human being made to be what he wants to be and that doesnt condemn Tim anymore or any less than John.

"I hate gay people." "I am homophobic." What is there to misinterpret?

[50 cent]

On a serious note, who else in the NBA is rumored to be gay? I heard Richard Jefferson, anyone else?
Dirk Nowitski.

I live in Dallas and he is always with a male companion and never in any females. Just listen to the guy when he is being interviewed. He sounds gayer than a Richard Simmons workout video.

[nkdlunch]

:lol

here is proof:
http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0213/nba_dailydime_268.jpg

[Xylus]

Hardaway certainly has a right to express his opinion, and it's good that he's honest about it openly.

But the opinion in question is hateful bigotry. Homophobia is not a good thing...it creates a tension between the gay and straight communities that doesn't need to exist, and Tim Hardaway is only adding to that tension.

He's not an idiot for expressing his belief, he's an idiot for believing it in the first place.

[ShoogarBear]

LMAO at all the Maverick fans supporting Hardaway.

Boy, are they headed for a moral dilemma.

[DarkReign]

Hes a grown man entitled to his opinion. If he didnt go on his stupid tirade, this wouldnt be news.

But thats why hes a normal Joe, and not a politician.

[sandman]

Hes a grown man entitled to his opinion. If he didnt go on his stupid tirade, this wouldnt be news.

But thats why hes a normal Joe, and not a politician.

True. Disagree with what he said, but respect his honesty.

I find it interesting that Ameache wants straight players who feel comfortable with it to come out and support the gay community. Because of Hardaway, the PC machine is going to go into overdrive and people in professional sports are going to feel compelled to have to say something in support of the gay community so as not to be generalized as homophobic. That is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, because they may not be homophobic, but they also don't want to ride on the Grandmaster float during the Pride Parade. This whole situation is going to cause extreme reactions that will not be sincere, will not be long term, and will not benefit anyone.

[BradLohaus]

Dirk Nowitski is always with a male companion and never in any females.

That sounds like the definition of gay.

[johngateswhiteley]

Yes, I think he took it too far and made himself out to be an ignorant slug. He can have whatever opinion he wants, but to take to a level of "hate" and to say that his employer, who pays him to do a job would have to trade that gay player is just stupid. STFU Tim Hardaway. Is it so hard to just say that a gay teammate would make him a little uncomfortable but he would try his best to get thru it? It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

and people, such as yourself, are entitled to their opinion...just as you expressed. frankly, i am kind of glad he said it, and by that i mean glad he was honest. the media is always searching for people that will tell the truth, yet when they get it they jump down the person's throat. well, fuck you media, you get what you ask for.

and i could care less Tim Hardaway hates gay people, who cares. it doesn't really matter. but at the same time, people do have the right to jump down his throat with their own opinion. my problem is mainly with the media and their treatment of individuals in these type of circumstances.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

True. Disagree with what he said, but respect his honesty.

I find it interesting that Ameache wants straight players who feel comfortable with it to come out and support the gay community. Because of Hardaway, the PC machine is going to go into overdrive and people in professional sports are going to feel compelled to have to say something in support of the gay community so as not to be generalized as homophobic. That is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, because they may not be homophobic, but they also don't want to ride on the Grandmaster float during the Pride Parade. This whole situation is going to cause extreme reactions that will not be sincere, will not be long term, and will not benefit anyone.

So honesty is always an respectable quality?

[ShoogarBear]

I'd rather someone be honest than say they support something while secretly working against it.

[Xylus]

I'd rather someone be honest than say they support something while secretly working against it.
But Hardaway's honesty will have no positive effect on this issue, and does more harm than if he were secretly wishing for all gays to die.

[Xylus]

it all boils down to, If you are pro-gay, then tell the world about it ! If you're anti- then nobody wants to hear about it.
No, it boils down to hatespeech being unacceptable these days. Hardaway's comments were just that.

[sandman]

So honesty is always an respectable quality?

Yes. One can take issue with the tactifulness or appropriateness of his honesty while respecting the fact that he is willing to be honest. If you are going to attack the man, attack his convictions, not his adherence to them. His honesty is not the issue in this matter.

[ShoogarBear]

But Hardaway's honesty will have no positive effect on this issue, and does more harm than if he were secretly wishing for all gays to die.The backlash will eventually have a positive effect. And Hardaway now has no zero influence and credibility, not just on this issue, but on just about every other issue as well.

Contrast it to someone who feels the same way but keeps quiet about it, maintains a position of influence, and works behind the scenes to perpetuate discrimination. That's the guy who does real harm.

[Xylus]

Contrast it to someone who feels the same way but keeps quiet about it, maintains a position of influence, and works behind the scenes to perpetuate discrimination. That's the guy who does real harm.
Can we agree that Hardaway isn't that type of guy? :toast

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Yes. One can take issue with the tactifulness or appropriateness of his honesty while respecting the fact that he is willing to be honest. If you are going to attack the man, attack his convictions, not his adherence to them. His honesty is not the issue in this matter.

Honesty in an issue when it involves the expression of prejudices. Did Michael Richards really need to come out and say what he did?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Yes. One can take issue with the tactifulness or appropriateness of his honesty while respecting the fact that he is willing to be honest. If you are going to attack the man, attack his convictions, not his adherence to them. His honesty is not the issue in this matter.

attack his convictions, but not his adherence to them? So lets just attack the kkk's convictions but not their adherence to them?

What the hell are you saying?

[ShoogarBear]

Honesty in an issue when it involves the expression of prejudices. Did Michael Richards really need to come out and say what he did?Yes, because otherwise I might have ended up at some point watching or supporting some project he was involved with. Now I know not to.

[sandman]

Honesty in an issue when it involves the expression of prejudices. Did Michael Richards really need to come out and say what he did?

Is your issue with Richards that he said it, or that he believed it? If your point is to keep people from verbally articulating their true self, then you have missed the root cause all together and are simply about censorship.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Yes, because otherwise I might have ended up at some point watching or supporting some project he was involved with. Now I know not to.

Yea, but what was its effect on society? Not it's effect on his marketability...

[sandman]

attack his convictions, but not his adherence to them? So lets just attack the kkk's convictions but not their adherence to them?

What the hell are you saying?

I am saying that your issue seems to be that he verbalized a prejudiced thought, not that he had the prejudiced thought to begin with.

[sandman]

Yea, but what was its effect on society? Not it's effect on his marketability...

I'm fairly confident that Tim Hardaway making a prejudiced comment is not going to undo any social gains and inroads made by the gay community over the last few decades. It will, however, have a marked impact on his future marketability. The only one hurt by this was Hardaway.

[MJ23DWADE3]

TiMmY Is RiGhT Ya DiG

[ShoogarBear]

Yea, but what was its effect on society? Not it's effect on his marketability...It opened a lot a naive people's eyes about the types of people who can be racist. Who knows what crap Michael Richards was pulling in terms of inlufencing who was and wasn't getting jobs in the industry? Now he has about zero pull.

Maybe it made a few others like Michael Richards feel more assertive about themselves but in the long run having him expose will benefit society (assuming that his views are not in line with what most people secretly think).

[Chris Childs]

Gay people are disgusting!

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Is your issue with Richards that he said it, or that he believed it? If your point is to keep people from verbally articulating their true self, then you have missed the root cause all together and are simply about censorship.

My issue is with what he believed in, and his expression. The same prejudices ingrained in society will show in time, and that is understandable. But prejudices of few people need to be kept quiet, because they serve no purpose.

[Chris Childs]

Why would a man stick his wag inside of another mans @$$hole?
Why would he want to suck on another mans genitals?

This is why I hate gay people.

Their disgusting.

[sandman]

(assuming that his views are not in line with what most people secretly think).

Interesting thought. Most high end estimates state that 10% of the US population self-identifies as homosexual. Is it reasonable to assume that the remaining 90% would be tolerant of the 10%? Possibly. What about going beyond tolerant and being supportive? That is a big leap between the two ideals. Is it correct to take our current PC assumption that the majority not only tolerates but supports the gay community and it is only fringe, hate-mongering religious fanatics that don't? To me, that would be harder to accept than knowing that there are those like Hardaway out there who are willing to vocalize their extremism.

[ponky]

LMAO at all the Maverick fans supporting Hardaway.

Boy, are they headed for a moral dilemma.

i haven't read the entire thread but i don't support hardaway, fuck him

he was probably raised to hate gays and taught that it was wrong and immoral but this is no worse than the ignorant white southerner who was raised and taught that blacks are inferior...just because it's a belief system doesn't make it right when it comes to stuff as personal as who you get down with

[sandman]

My issue is with what he believed in, and his expression. The same prejudices ingrained in society will show in time, and that is understandable. But prejudices of few people need to be kept quiet, because they serve no purpose.

Freedom of speech is an inherent right of citizenship. When we start determining who can speak freely and who can't, then we have lost our freedoms. Ronaldo, meet George Orwell.

[sabar]

Ha, Tim is such an idiot.
And :lol at people suppoting his opinions.
The KKK and Nazis have theirs too. How much public support would they get?

Say what you want, but Tim sounds like a level 3 guy on the Allport scale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allport%27s_scale) That's bigotry no matter how you spin it.

[sandman]

Ha, Tim is such an idiot.
And :lol at people suppoting his opinions.
The KKK and Nazis have theirs too. How much public support would they get?

Say what you want, but Tim sounds like a level 3 guy on the Allport scale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allport%27s_scale) That's bigotry no matter how you spin it.

Outside of the obvious trolls, who is supporting his opinions?

[ponky]

Shoogar Bear wtf are you talking about with regards to mavs fans supporting Tim hardaway? I see that two mavs fans called him out and then a Spurs fan (Ducks) made the first positive comment about Hardaway and all of one Mavs fan agreed and made a dick comment. The other two Mavs fans were basically reiterating what Amaechi stated, that a lot of players are thinking the same thing and that honesty is the first step.

[ponky]

Why would a man stick his wag inside of another mans @$$hole?
Why would he want to suck on another mans genitals?

This is why I hate gay people.

Their disgusting.

ask a woman, many have often wondered the same thing when it comes to stuff like bjs and anal

[sabar]

Tim Hardaway: "I regret it"

NBA Commissioner David Stern, upon learning of the remarks Wednesday, removed Hardaway from subsequent league-related appearances. "It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours," Stern said in a statement to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

Hardaway has been taking part in NBA festivities ahead of Sunday's All-Star Game in Las Vegas and attended an NBA Cares outreach event at a city YMCA with Knicks forward Jerome Williams on Tuesday.

Le Batard, who also writes for ESPN The Magazine, quoted Amaechi in a Miami Herald column saying the ex-NBA player was grateful for Hardaway's words.

"Finally, someone who is honest. It is ridiculous, absurd, petty, bigoted and shows a lack of empathy that is gargantuan and unfathomable. But it is honest. And it illustrates the problem better than any of the fuzzy language other people have used so far."

Thursday morning, on ESPN Radio's Mike & Mike in the Morning, Amaechi said although the reaction to his coming out has been "overwhelmingly positive," Hardaway's comments seemed to trigger similar statements from others.

"Every comment that [Hardaway] made is labeled with hate," Amaechi said. "The percentage of e-mails I've received overnight that are going to have to go into a little box somewhere just in case I end up dead are unbelievable. He's been a lightning rod for people to finally open the floodgates and decide that they can say some pretty awful stuff."

"I will say this about the Tim Hardaway comments and the comments of people like him ... these are the loud comments that pollute the air," Amaechi said. "These are the comments that create the atmosphere that allow some of the tragic incidents of homophobia that we've seen. This is what makes the lives of gay and lesbian young people in schools miserable. It's what stops gay and lesbian people in the workplace from coming out as well as the fact they can be fined in 33 states for being gay. These are part of the problem."

Hardaway, later saying he regretted the remarks, apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN-TV in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

Hardaway played for five NBA teams from 1990-2003 and was a five-time All-Star. He finished with averages of 17.7 points and 8.2 assists.

On Mike & Mike on Thursday morning, Amaechi also said he was heartened by the NBA's response to Hardaway's comments.

"I think Commissioner Stern is absolutely right. ... I've been in contact with the NBA offices and it is not the views of the NBA as an organization," he said. "I don't think that people give NBA players enough credit ... some of them definitely don't agree with those views"

www.espn.com

[ShoogarBear]

Shoogar Bear wtf are you talking about with regards to mavs fans supporting Tim hardaway? I see that two mavs fans called him out and then a Spurs fan (Ducks) made the first positive comment about Hardaway and all of one Mavs fan agreed and made a dick comment. The other two Mavs fans were basically reiterating what Amaechi stated, that a lot of players are thinking the same thing and that honesty is the first step.a) it wasn't meant to be a serious comment
b) there were two statements, one by Flight3107 and another by mavs>spurs which apparently was deleted but was quoted by 50 Cent
c) one Mav Fan = two Mav Fan = all part of The Borg

[ShoogarBear]

"Finally, someone who is honest. It is ridiculous, absurd, petty, bigoted and shows a lack of empathy that is gargantuan and unfathomable. But it is honest. And it illustrates the problem better than any of the fuzzy language other people have used so far."
This is pretty much what I've been trying to say.

[ponky]

a) it wasn't meant to be a serious comment
b) there were two statements, one by Flight3107 and another by mavs>spurs which apparently was deleted but was quoted by 50 Cent
c) one Mav Fan = two Mav Fan = all part of The Borg


in that case, i see. just like a spurs fan to blow stuff out of proportion, like elson's future after last night's game! :lol :lol :lol

[Chris Childs]

ask a woman, many have often wondered the same thing when it comes to stuff like bjs and anal

I could see if it was a woman, but it's a man. WTF? That's disgusting no other way you put it.

[sabar]

Elson is the next Hakeem

[ShoogarBear]

Elson = Dirk-Stopper

[Kermit]

in that case, i see. just like a spurs fan to blow stuff out of proportion, like elson's future after last night's game! :lol :lol :lol

elson's going to play that way again like amaechi's going to abstain from the hot carl.

[ShoogarBear]

Speaking of which, I hope nobody goes to get a quote from Francisco about Hardaway or Amaechi. :rolleyes

[Kermit]

I could see if it was a woman, but it's a man. WTF? That's disgusting no other way you put it.

chris childs once had sex with patrick ewing and charles oakley. guess who the taker was?

[ponky]

I could see if it was a woman, but it's a man. WTF? That's disgusting no other way you put it.

umm, a dick is a dick is a dick and even to a woman, that thing is not pretty...wrinkly, pink and surrounded by hairs?!?!?!??! the stuff we put up with!

[ponky]

elson's going to play that way again like amaechi's going to abstain from the hot carl.

lol

[kris]

The media and a lot of the Tim Hardaway lashers have gone out of their way to cause an uproar about this. There are some questions to ask though. Do their actions correspond with their negative spotlight on Hardaway? What would they do if their son or daughter came out? What are their true feelings?

Examples:

Lesbianism is rampant in the WNBA. Since it is an accurate measurement of a fraction of the league, why doesn't the WNBA ever speak of it on a public scale? They have a large number of lesbian fans, why not show women holding hands together in some of their commercials? If it's truly no problem to Stern, why avoid it?

The commentators and pundits all act presumably as if they have no problem with gays and feel they are just another demographic segment of society such as race or gender. What would their reaction be if their son or daughter came out they were gay? According to what they are saying, it should be a non-issue as they are just another person. However, everyone knows that is not the case.

Some of the commentators/media don't really say their personal feelings on gays, but criticize Hardaway and talk about how other players feel. Where do they stand if they were being truly candid?

If that's how Tim Hardaway feels, then I think he is a very honest person who is being portrayed or branded as a huge bigot by people that probably don't like gays either but are afraid of being outted. By definition of bigotry, Tim Hardaway is one, but I don't like the media playing the commentary card when some are not saying what they truly think or hiding what they truly think.

I have a problem with Tim Hardaway's comments for two reasons. 1 is he backed down from his comments. That was very weak. If you are going to be a hardass and say something controversial, you can't back down once you say it. 2 is he said he hates all gay people.

When you blanket statement a group of people like that, it's ignorant because you don't know every single one of them. I played on an intrammural basketball team with a guy in school and found out later he was gay. He was still the same nice guy to me when I found out he was gay, but he was just gay now. I thought of him differently because of what he did though. Nobody in mainstream media ever goes into this, but what gay guys actually do is pretty disgusting. But I can't hate the guy just because he is or wants to appear he is gay.

I've found out probably 9 or 10 people I knew personally whether at work or school were gay and I never hated any of them. I still thought they were the same person as far as being nice, organized, funny, disgruntled as before they were gay. I just thought of them differently for what they did behind closed doors.

I don't like this new advancement trend where you are wrong if you don't like gayness. I don't like the idea of being gay. I don't think people should be gay. I don't like people who claim to be Christians advocating or supporting gays. I have a problem with that because if you say you are Christian, you are supposed to be supporting Christian values, not gay values.

In society, I think people that choose to be gay should be accepted and not hated though. If a gay guy applies for my job and he outqualifies a straight guy, gay guy wins. But I don't want to have to adapt my company to where I have to have a Gay Day party because I had a Christmas party. And I'm not going to promote being gay because that's not how I believe people should be.

On the most fundamental aspect of the topic, my main problem is that people hide behind the curtains because they are afraid. Easier said than done right? Yeah, well the times have turned. John Amaechi is being promoted and put in the sunlight because he is diverse and gay and saying he is gay. Tim Hardaway is an evil villian who is being outcasted for saying he hates gays. Not too long ago, it was the exact opposite.

As I said before, I don't agree with gayness and I don't like gayness. I don't want my family to be gay. But, if I come across a gay person, I don't just hate them because they are gay. I could even see me being their friend. But I won't ever promote gay people or pretend like if 33% of America was gay that I would just be fine with that.

[kris]

As idealistic as my post was, I have to admit I know exactly why Stern or ESPN rides the fence. If I lose millions of dollars in bad publicity, I'd play the politician card too. There are a lot of things, no amount of money could make me change. But, I'd keep my candid views on gays in the closet for cash. I don't care that much about them one way or the other.

[dbreiden83080]

Thinking it is fine but he never should have said what he did i have no idea what the hell he was thinking. I myself am not too comfortable around Gay men but i would not go off like he did, i would just keep that info to myself.

[PMD]

the problem isnt that we believe that everyone is entitled to believe and do what they please. I mean seriously, people reserve the right to do what they want. Its the fact that we as a society have been lied to, to brainwash us to think that its morally correct to be homesexual and that there is nothing inherently wrong with any of it.

Someone once said something along the lines of, you repeat a lie loud enough and long enough, then people will begin to believe it. Well, there you go.

We as a country have began to take sympathy for any and everything that moves and now everything has a cause. And now, a nation built upon biblical principles is now falling for a total lack of them anywhere.

Really, if what everyone does is there own business then why does John feel the need to blast this in books and in the news?? Sure youre gay, ok lets move on. But with ESPN backing his book, now were going to be bombarded with John Amechi talk for weeks just because homeboy wanted to make a lil change when he could have done that on a street corner in san francisco...

[Winnipeg_Spur]

And now, a nation built upon biblical principles is now falling for a total lack of them anywhere.
You know what else the United Stated was (quite literally) built on? Slavery.

Somehow they've managed to deal, even though it was abolished 200 years ago.

[PMD]

You know what else the United Stated was (quite literally) built on? Slavery.

Somehow they've managed to deal, even though it was abolished 200 years ago.
plz tell me youre not trying to compare the birth of a nation through biblical principles to slavery... under that analogy i could say a lot of things but i wont.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

So, since slavery was being practiced in a "nation birthed by biblical principles" either slavery is supported by biblical principles or the nation wasn't actually following those biblical princples. Is there a third option I'm missing here?

[GrandeDavid]

What arrogance, what stupidity. I cannot believe that someone with so many years, DECADES, of dealing with the media, would say something so hateful and utterly stupid. He obviously has some serious problems with himself.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Why would a man stick his wag inside of another mans @$$hole?
Why would he want to suck on another mans genitals?

This is why I hate gay people.

Their disgusting.

The same reason why black people "want" to be black, Hispanics "want" to have tanned skin, midgets "want" to be small.

And because your comments pertained only to male homosexuality, I'm anxious to hear what you think about female homosexuality...

[Ronaldo McDonald]

so I guess freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore?

he should have said something like this.

"I have no fondess(I hate)for people that partake in immoral and perverse activity(homos), they(homos) have no place in my house and I would rather stay away(be segregated)from them(homos)"

same thing he said, but with the confusing nature of intelligence.......when you articulate at a high level the dumbass masses don't even get it......and you can say whatever the fuck you want.

Who said freedom of speech doesn't exist anymore? Freedom of speech exists, but being exempt from looking like an ignorant prick while exercising your right to do so, and thus being criticized for it--that will always exist.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Your stupid.....the black, hispanc, dwarf can't do anything about their circumstance(there is no choice). At least you can choose NOT to have a prick in your ass.

No, it's a chemical inbalance. Just like how some people don't feel sympathy when they kill, or how some people are depressed, or any other social disorder. People are inclined to do things that make them happy, but may not make other people happy, and this is because we are all DIFFERENT. Is it their fault for having a preference, that obviously fullfills their desires? Our behavior is dictated by combination of our genetic make-up and our environment. We do have the ability to make choices, of course, but we cannot choose our desires. This is something innate.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I like Tim and what he said.....queers suck.

So do idiots.

[Amare_32]

What a bigoted jack ass. Sadly he is not the only one. While I don't agree with that lifestyle I say live and let live. Is his life not Hardaway's.

[P-O-Z]

gays=idiots..........I agree 100%
:lol :lol

[Ronaldo McDonald]

gays=idiots..........I agree 100%

Bye... :music

[Amare_32]

doesn't saying you don't "agree" with their lifestyle" just a sissy ass way of saying you hate them too?......please everyone be your own person and don't let anyone(gays) tell you what to think, or say........haven't we been through this in the late 60's, early 70's???? :fro


I don't agree with it but I am not going to say I hate them. I am nobody to judge someone else and neither is anybody on this board. If I see a gay person I am not going to confront them and say I don't agree with your lifestyle. Thats the problem with the world today intolerance.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

doesn't saying you don't "agree" with their lifestyle" just a sissy ass way of saying you hate them too?......please everyone be your own person and don't let anyone(gays) tell you what to think, or say........haven't we been through this in the late 60's, early 70's???? :fro

:bang
I won't insult your intelligence. You're doing that for me.

[Amare_32]

there is plenty of tolerance in the world(porn/gays---perhaps too much), but lets not give in too much to all the freaky shit or the next thing you know pedaphiles and people who want to marry animals will want their rights too.

No one is saying that but if gay people go to work, pay thier taxes and don't bother no one just let them be. They not hurting anyone.

[L.I.T]

And now, a nation built upon biblical principles is now falling for a total lack of them anywhere.


Yeesh, I'm consistently surprised by the utter inability of people to absorb anything from their civics classes.

Biblical principles? Right, show me where in the myriad writings of the founding fathers did they specifically state we are being founded on the principles of the Bible. Which, if I can remind you, also states that one of the serious crimes is onanism. You say we should follow 'biblical principles', well and good. Just one problem, which Bible? Which translation? Which iteration? Should we go Hebrew Bible (the Torah is a Bible? Yes it is!)? Or maybe the Greek Orthodoxy Bible (which as far as we know is the closest to the originally selected canon)? Or maybe we should go with the Bible before it was edited by the Popes?

One of my favorite parts about these types of debates is how quickly one side degenerates into random blithering, straw man arguments, logical fallacies and unsubstantiated argumentative declarations, not to mention blindingly foolish blanket statements.

The core point is this, free speech is not free, the exercise of it should be tempered by some degree of restraint. More so, when an individual speaks in a manner that is obviously inflammatory and "hate"-filled repercussions and discussions need to follow. Those replying have as much a right, if not more, to voice their opinion, in this case I find it completely warranted. To advocate the murder of millions of people is not and never should be acceptable in a social society.

[atxrocker]

..............and I am NOT homophobic.


:lol you're full of shit. after reading some of your ignorant comments in this thread, i'd really hate to see what comments people who admit to being homophobic would have to say.

[PMD]

I don't agree with it but I am not going to say I hate them. I am nobody to judge someone else and neither is anybody on this board. If I see a gay person I am not going to confront them and say I don't agree with your lifestyle. Thats the problem with the world today intolerance.
hey its just wrong and immoral. And thats what it is. But its also an opinion that im entitled to. Theres nothing that suggests that i or anyone need to be open minded about it.

[PMD]

No one is saying that but if gay people go to work, pay thier taxes and don't bother no one just let them be. They not hurting anyone.
Yeah but if were forced to live through all this ESPN bullcrap then thats imparting on my viewing entertainment. Thats when people say things. If he kept it to himself the same then none of this would be an issue.

[Amare_32]

Yeah but if were forced to live through all this ESPN bullcrap then thats imparting on my viewing entertainment. Thats when people say things. If he kept it to himself the same then none of this would be an issue.

Use the remote

[mavs>spurs2]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions if Tim chooses not to approve of gayness then it's none of your concern. I don't approve of gays either but I don't go to their houses and harass them about it, just as you all shouldn't harass Tim because of his opinion. The man can believe whatever he wants.

[atxrocker]

lmfao @ PMD who registered on here strictly to post in this thread and bash gays. i mean, who cares about talking about basketball these days, right?

[Extra Stout]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions if Tim chooses not to approve of gayness then it's none of your concern. I don't approve of gays either but I don't go to their houses and harass them about it, just as you all shouldn't harass Tim because of his opinion. The man can believe whatever he wants.
The only thing is, as a public figure, he has to be more careful, because as is all too obvious even in this little forum, idiots take his comments as a pretext to unleash a feeding frenzy of hate against gays.

[Amare_32]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions if Tim chooses not to approve of gayness then it's none of your concern. I don't approve of gays either but I don't go to their houses and harass them about it, just as you all shouldn't harass Tim because of his opinion. The man can believe whatever he wants.

He is entitled to his opinion thats fine but as a public persona don't be surprise when you people criticize you for it. He should have known better. All he had to say is I don't agree with it and I am uncomfortable with it. Thats it! What he said is akin to a hate speech and his lame apology was an insult.

[atxrocker]

for the record, PMD's dancing avatar is ultra gay. i hate fags, he should be immediately banned for his choice of avatar. it makes me feel very uncomfortable to have to have to view it. what a fag. i hate queers.

[Findog]

Why would a man stick his wag inside of another mans @$$hole?
Why would he want to suck on another mans genitals?

This is why I hate gay people.

Their disgusting.

What the fuck do you care? What have gay people ever done to you? Who the fuck are you to police people's bedrooms? I love pussy and I got the wife and kids to prove it, but live and let live. Jesus Fucking Christ.

[Findog]

First of all, I wouldn't want black guys on my team. And second of all, if there was a black guy on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right. And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that.

You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people. I am racist. I don't like blacks. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.'

[atxrocker]

except for that one dude that had all those mad numchuk skills.


word of advice, you're a lot more effective being a complete douche than you are attempting a crack at some humor.

[Flight3107]

First of all, I wouldn't want black guys on my team. And second of all, if there was a black guy on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right. And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that.

You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people. I am racist. I don't like blacks. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.'


LOL @ people comparing race to being gay


Black people did not have a choice to be black.

Gays do, unless you believe in the "gay gene"

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

He just said what a lot of guys in the league are probably thinking.

[Flight3107]

He just said what a lot of guys in the league are probably thinking.

Exactly

[Amare_32]

Exactly

They are not stupid enough to say it. Especially since Stern took quick action by removing Hardaway from any NBA events. This is another fuck up that Stern has to clean up. Media day tomorrow is going to be interesting.

[Kori Ellis]

Buck - we all understand you hate gays, and you are entitled to your opinion. But just tone down the "prick in their ass" type comments, so we don't have to end up closing the thread. Thanks.

[Kori Ellis]

why is it that the truth can only be used be one side?

Just tone it down I said.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Good to see we've moved onto the part of the discussion where the world's greatest scientists come to explain that according to all their amazing research homosexuality is a "choice," whatever the hell that means.

Maybe next they'll educate us on the inaccuracy of evolution, cause my ancestors sure as hell weren't no monkeys!!!11!1!

[Kermit]

being gay is a choice; much like one can choose to be a midget, have 6 fingers, pepperoni nipples and kinky hair.

[Trainwreck2100]

being gay is a choice; much like one can choose to be a midget, have 6 fingers, pepperoni nipples and kinky hair.


What do you call being a little bitch and exploiting your own sexuality for a book deal?

[averageusaconsumer]

What do you call being a little bitch and exploiting your own sexuality for a book deal?


A la Monica Lewinski or anybody else that has cashed on on sex related scandals for profit? Oh right, this is unique because the person in question is a homosexual, got it. :rolleyes

[sabar]

Hmm I could argue more, but I think Buck Rogers pretty much took himself down for me. :lol

[Trainwreck2100]

A la Monica Lewinski or anybody else that has cashed on on sex related scandals for profit? Oh right, this is unique because the person in question is a homosexual, got it. :rolleyes


Lewinsky didn't hide behind some alterior motive, she wanted to get paid afterwards, and she got paid, everyone knew she was a whore anyway.

[sabar]

A la Monica Lewinski or anybody else that has cashed on on sex related scandals for profit? Oh right, this is unique because the person in question is a homosexual, got it. :rolleyes

Her book went #5 best seller and sold in excess of 450,000 copies.
See what you can do with your life these days?

Wonder how big of a cut she got from the sales.

[Kermit]

What do you call being a little bitch and exploiting your own sexuality for a book deal?

i don't have a problem with it. does outrage over the timing excuse rampant homophobia? one could hardly blame him for not coming out during his career after witnessing the aftermath of "i hate gays."

[Melmart1]

Lewinsky didn't hide behind some alterior motive, she wanted to get paid afterwards, and she got paid, everyone knew she was a whore anyway.
I am not sure I follow your reasoning... you are saying Lewinsky saving her jizzed-on dress to cash in later was OK but Amaechi keeping the fact that he was gay a secret so he wouldn't get pummelled by idiots like Hardaway was not?

[Trainwreck2100]

i don't have a problem with it. does outrage over the timing excuse rampant homophobia? one could hardly blame him for not coming out during his career after witnessing the aftermath of "i hate gays."


Hardaway and any other person in this country has a right to his own opinion. And if an NBA player is going to go though a career basically lying about what he is to himself, and his teammates, he shouldn't profit off of it.

[Kermit]

Hardaway and any other person in this country has a right to his own opinion. And if an NBA player is going to go though a career basically lying about what he is to himself, and his teammates, he shouldn't profit off of it.

just because he has a right, doesn't mean he's right. his opinion got him fired. the nba player in question kept hidden what would have ostracized him from his teammates and made him hated around the league. who are you to judge what john amaechi has been though?

[Trainwreck2100]

I am not sure I follow your reasoning... you are saying Lewinsky saving her jizzed-on dress to cash in later was OK but Amaechi keeping the fact that he was gay a secret so he wouldn't get pummelled by idiots like Hardaway was not?

Lewinsky was a whore, Amaechi is just some pussy that wouldn't man up to what he was. Did Jakie Robinson write a book when he went out and broke the racial barier? No he didn't he didnt have the luxury of living a lie.

[Melmart1]

Lewinsky was a whore, Amaechi is just some pussy that wouldn't man up to what he was. Did Jakie Robinson write a book when he went out and broke the racial barier? No he didn't he didnt have the luxury of living a lie.
So instead of criticizing people like Hardaway who FORCED him to live a lie with their ignorance, let's just go after the guy who decided to protect his physical and emotional well-being instead...?

[Melmart1]

I just wish all queers would get some serious counseling, admit they were molested as children and be done with it......the end to their gayness is only a few sessions with a shrink away.
And how many sessions will it take with a shrink for you to get a fucking clue?

[Trainwreck2100]

So instead of criticizing people like Hardaway who FORCED him to live a lie with their ignorance, let's just go after the guy who decided to protect his physical and emotional well-being instead...?


Hardaway didn't force him to do shit, not wanting to face consternation was his choice not Hardaway's, and while I would critisize Hardaway's beliefs, it is his God given rights to have those beliefs. And his constitutional right to say them.

[Kermit]

Lewinsky was a whore, Amaechi is just some pussy that wouldn't man up to what he was. Did Jakie Robinson write a book when he went out and broke the racial barier? No he didn't he didnt have the luxury of living a lie.

jackie robinson? it's not like amaechi's breaking new ground here. he's not earl lloyd. the issue isn't the book, it's the homophobia in professional sports.

[Melmart1]

Hardaway didn't force him to do shit, not wanting to face consternation was his choice not Hardaway's, and while I would critisize Hardaway's beliefs, it is his God given rights to have those beliefs. And his constitutional right to say them.
I never said Hardaway did, I said people LIKE him who 'hate' gays and think they shouldn't even be allowed in the country.

I don't disagree that everyone has a right to their opinion. But so do I, and I think he is an ass. And I also think that your reasoning about why Lewinsky should have been able to cash in but not Amaechi is back asswards.

[Kermit]

Hardaway didn't force him to do shit, not wanting to face consternation was his choice not Hardaway's, and while I would critisize Hardaway's beliefs, it is his God given rights to have those beliefs. And his constitutional right to say them.

i don't think anyone is questioning his right to say the things he said. at least i'm not, and if that's what we're arguing about, we can squash that.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Glad to see ignorance is alive and well in the World today.

The last time I saw so many judgmental, uninformed bigots was when the KKK tried to have a demonstration on the Univ of Mich campus.

Alot of you need to learn something about tolerance and acceptance.

[CuckingFunt]

I just wish all queers would get some serious counseling, admit they were molested as children and be done with it......the end to their gayness is only a few sessions with a shrink away.I honestly don't know what about you offends me more. Your homophobia, or the fact that you feel it necessary to keep pummeling us with the same fucking jokes/comments over and over again.

[Trainwreck2100]

I never said Hardaway did, I said people LIKE him who 'hate' gays and think they shouldn't even be allowed in the country.

I don't disagree that everyone has a right to their opinion. But so do I, and I think he is an ass. And I also think that your reasoning about why Lewinsky should have been able to cash in but not Amaechi is back asswards.


Lewinsky was a whore.......Amaechi is a whore with an agenda. Lewinsky cashed in on banging the president. Amaechi outed himself for money. If there was no book deal you think he does this?

[CuckingFunt]

Lewinsky was a whore.......Amaechi is a whore with an agenda. Lewinsky cashed in on banging the president. Amaechi outed himself for money. If there was no book deal you think he does this?The stigma of being a homosexual male in this society is such that I doubt very many gay public figures would come out just for the heck of it.

Furthermore, even if Amaechi's book deal is every bit as whorish as Lewinski's, I fail to see what that has to do with Hardaway's comments. Is his opinion that gay people shouldn't be on this planet, or the matter-of-fact way in which he let that slip, somehow more acceptable because Amaechi's trying to make a buck?

[Pistons < Spurs]

What does his reasoning for 'coming out' and writing a book have to do with the extreme levels of homophobia and bigotry being displayed in this thread?

And since when did Amaechi confide with you why he's outing himself?

Heaven forbid he's trying to offer support and confidence to the Gay community, making them realize that the 'sports arena' is not out of their reach simply because they're gay. This book will be an extremely inspirational bit of reading for tons of gay people.

[Trainwreck2100]

Furthermore, even if Amaechi's book deal is every bit as whorish as Lewinski's, I fail to see what that has to do with Hardaway's comments. Is his opinion that gay people shouldn't be on this planet, or the matter-of-fact way in which he let that slip, somehow more acceptable because Amaechi's trying to make a buck?


It's more whorish the Lewinsky's. It has nothing to do with Hardaway's beliefs I don't know why you people keep bringing the book up.

[Trainwreck2100]

What does his reasoning for 'coming out' and writing a book have to do with the extreme levels of homophobia and bigotry being displayed in this thread?

And since when did Amaechi confide with you why he's outing himself?

Heaven forbid he's trying to offer support and confidence to the Gay community, making them realize that the 'sports arena' is not out of their reach simply because they're gay. This book will be an extremely inspirational bit of reading for tons of gay people.


So then why didnt he out himself the minute he decided to write a book?

[Pistons < Spurs]

So then why didnt he out himself the minute he decided to write a book?


Because of intellect. He wanted impact. A media blitz. It's smart marketing so that he can reach a broader group of people.

If you want to offer inspiration, and reach out to as many people as possible, would you make an announcement, then 1 year later write a book further explaining yourself? By the time the book is finally out, many fewer would read it as they already heard your pronouncement the year before.

Or would you use the ESPN's of the world, have press conferences and interviews, and back it up with a book? Guarantee, this way he's making a bigger impact, and creating more dialogue. Which is his goal.

[Trainwreck2100]

Because of intellect. He wanted impact. A media blitz. It's smart marketing so that he can reach a broader group of people.

If you want to offer inspiration, and reach out to as many people as possible, would you make an announcement, then 1 year later write a book further explaining yourself? By the time the book is finally out, many fewer would read it as they already heard your pronouncement the year before.

Or would you use the ESPN's of the world, have press conferences and interviews, and back it up with a book? Guarantee, this way he's making a bigger impact, and creating more dialogue. Which is his goal.
:bling

[Pistons < Spurs]

even if it's a complete money grab,

What does his reasoning for 'coming out' and writing a book have to do with the extreme levels of homophobia and bigotry being displayed in this thread?

[Cry Havoc]

The lack of troll detection in this thread is sad.

STOP feeding them, you guys. Buck is obviously just playing the idiot. STOP responding to them so we can have a real discussion.

In the meantime, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[Kori Ellis]

The lack of troll detection in this thread is sad.

STOP feeding them, you guys. Buck is obviously just playing the idiot. STOP responding to them so we can have a real discussion.

In the meantime, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Sadly Buck Rogers isn't even a troll. He actually believes what he's saying and has been gay hating/bashing among other things here for years.

[Cry Havoc]

Sadly Buck Rogers isn't even a troll. He actually believes what he's saying and has been gay hating/bashing among other things here for years.

His posts are derisive enough to be considered trollish, even if he isn't intentionally trolling. He's attempting to piss people off and deliberately contradict them, which can still be troll behavior.

Believe me, reading Fark.com for a couple years... you see all kinds of trolls on that site. This guy is no different, and he doesn't even deserve the time for a response. He's obviously not here for civilized discourse, he just wants to bandy his ignorance around in hopes of annoying us all. Nothing we say is going to make a damn bit of difference to him one way or the other.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I just wish all queers would get some serious counseling, admit they were molested as children and be done with it......the end to their gayness is only a few sessions with a shrink away.

They need remakes of fables like the All Dogs go to heaven, 100 dalmations, Lion King etc that depict some gay animals, that way we don't have anymore close minded a-holes like this walking our planet 15 years from now. :clap

[jochhejaam]

Why doens't the NBA and network affiliates that procure the services of former athletes as commentators, etc., require them to go through sensitivity training/ orientation to prevent outbursts like this? It's not like all of these athletes have PHD's.

Tim was ignorant to say those things, but it could have been prevented.

[Findog]

LOL @ people comparing race to being gay


Black people did not have a choice to be black.

Gays do, unless you believe in the "gay gene"

Yes I believe gays are born that way, just like I believe in evolution, gravity and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And even if they choose to be gay, who cares? What goes on in private between consenting adults is no concern of mine. You're either a troll or a retard.

[PMD]

Yes I believe gays are born that way, just like I believe in evolution, gravity and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And even if they choose to be gay, who cares? What goes on in private between consenting adults is no concern of mine. You're either a troll or a retard.
hahahaha youre gay for saying that. Must have been some freak of nature that your were born man. Hey some people have sex with animals, but then again i guess they were just born that way... hahaha :spin

[PMD]

Yeesh, I'm consistently surprised by the utter inability of people to absorb anything from their civics classes.

Biblical principles? Right, show me where in the myriad writings of the founding fathers did they specifically state we are being founded on the principles of the Bible. Which, if I can remind you, also states that one of the serious crimes is onanism. You say we should follow 'biblical principles', well and good. Just one problem, which Bible? Which translation? Which iteration? Should we go Hebrew Bible (the Torah is a Bible? Yes it is!)? Or maybe the Greek Orthodoxy Bible (which as far as we know is the closest to the originally selected canon)? Or maybe we should go with the Bible before it was edited by the Popes?

One of my favorite parts about these types of debates is how quickly one side degenerates into random blithering, straw man arguments, logical fallacies and unsubstantiated argumentative declarations, not to mention blindingly foolish blanket statements.

The core point is this, free speech is not free, the exercise of it should be tempered by some degree of restraint. More so, when an individual speaks in a manner that is obviously inflammatory and "hate"-filled repercussions and discussions need to follow. Those replying have as much a right, if not more, to voice their opinion, in this case I find it completely warranted. To advocate the murder of millions of people is not and never should be acceptable in a social society.
how about christianity ... that way you can abstain from any debate regarding publishing and translation. Second, why are people blowing what Tim said out of proportion! Weve all said and used the word "hate" millions of times in our lives with as much emphasis or less than what weve seen recently. Its just that he had a microphone in face when he said it.

[PMD]

Use the remote
...and give up! never!

still waiting for that day when theyll be provoked to talk mavs without there arms being twisted.

[Kermit]

hahahaha youre gay for saying that. Must have been some freak of nature that your were born man. Hey some people have sex with animals, but then again i guess they were just born that way... hahaha :spin

i love the "if you allow gay people to do things, then you okay animal sex" crowd. as if one has anything to do with the other.

[Findog]

i love the "if you allow gay people to do things, then you okay animal sex" crowd. as if one has anything to do with the other.

Now how I know you're gay? You go on and on about how disgusting homosexuality is. These guys are either playing a character and trolling to elicit indignant responses....or they doth protest too much, if you catch my drift.

[L.I.T]

how about christianity ... that way you can abstain from any debate regarding publishing and translation. Second, why are people blowing what Tim said out of proportion! Weve all said and used the word "hate" millions of times in our lives with as much emphasis or less than what weve seen recently. Its just that he had a microphone in face when he said it.

I think that's kinda the point, right? He is a public figure who used a public forum to give his opinions? Wait, I'm really confused by what you're arguing here.

Ok, I'm guessing your first remark was the "how about christianity"? Again, wtf? I'll try and parse what you're saying. The United States was founded by Christians, so it's based on Christian values? Holy Jesus, read something written by the founding fathers, anything, their grocery lists for god sakes. Yeesh, ok never mind, this isn't the place for a civics lesson. One word: Deism.

Now, thank you for aptly proving the point that I made in my first post. Great to see young minds at work.

[Findog]

hahahaha youre gay for saying that. Must have been some freak of nature that your were born man. Hey some people have sex with animals, but then again i guess they were just born that way... hahaha :spin


What are you, 10 years old? Or are you trolling? Which is it?

Know how I know you're gay? You go on and on about how disgusting homosexuality is. You doth protest too much.

[DarkReign]

This thread has officially been flushed.

My fiance has been friends with a male individual since birth. When they would play together, he wanted to play Barbies, and be Barbie. When his father took him to the bike store and told him "Any bike you want" he picked the flourescent purple with pink streamers on the side, with a matching pink helmet at age 5. He never really had guy friends, always hung out with girls. He'e the best dressed person in any crowd. A degree in interior design.

I, like alot of you morons in this thread, used to think homsexuality was a choice. While I still believe its fashionable to be gay these days and alot of people do choose to be gay, I finally realized people are born gay.

Everyone knew he was gay since he was young, I think he did as well, but bigots like you ass-clowns kept him from coming out. Its prejudice pieces of shit that walk the earth that would threaten, harass and probably assault gay people. He doesnt live in California, he lives in Michigan, not exactly popular to be gay here.

He came out (officially) last year at age 25. Just this Valentine's Day, he finally built up enough courage to tell his mother. She said "Pffffft, I've known that since you were 3 years old. I'll always love you."

Tell me how fucking cool that is? Hes standing up in my wedding and probably the best friend we have.

[Trainwreck2100]

Tell me how fucking cool that is? Hes standing up in my wedding and probably the best friend we have.


:tu

I hope you got him to do the flower arrangements.

[DarkReign]

:tu

I hope you got him to do the flower arrangements.

Naturally.

[PMD]

i love the "if you allow gay people to do things, then you okay animal sex" crowd. as if one has anything to do with the other.
of course it does. Being with another man is a choice. So does being with an animal. Why wouldnt one be the same as another? Both are sexual preferences.

[PMD]

I think that's kinda the point, right? He is a public figure who used a public forum to give his opinions? Wait, I'm really confused by what you're arguing here.

Ok, I'm guessing your first remark was the "how about christianity"? Again, wtf? I'll try and parse what you're saying. The United States was founded by Christians, so it's based on Christian values? Holy Jesus, read something written by the founding fathers, anything, their grocery lists for god sakes. Yeesh, ok never mind, this isn't the place for a civics lesson. One word: Deism.

Now, thank you for aptly proving the point that I made in my first post. Great to see young minds at work.
what does deism have to do with any of this? Aside from the idea that thats what you obviously believe in it seems.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

why dont you read and educate yourself before making dumbfounded statements.

but if dont you care to read:
"On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea (left). Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it (right). Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task."

[DarkReign]

of course it does. Being with another man is a choice. So does being with an animal. Why wouldnt one be the same as another? Both are sexual preferences.

Ummmm, this may be a reach here, but it may something to do with the fact that its ANOTHER FUCKING SPECIES?!?!

Animals arent protected by the Bill of Rights, sadly for you, humans are...hetero or homo. Sorry.

[PMD]

I support Ameachi and his book and plight wether he makes money or not. What he is doing is going to help no matter his reasons.

I will make these observations though. I in no way support Tim and what he said but he sure does take some heat for his opinion which is basically the same opinion as 90% of the republicans in office and our very own President. Seems like everyone is Tim bashing for simply having the same opinion as many of the people that run this country. It cost him his job but these same beliefs put people in very high and important positions that greatly affect our lives.

Typical bandwagoning America to act this way. If you don't think this Country is nearing the bottom of the toilet, wake up.
well you know the power to do what you want is entirely in the hands of the people and many of those people have no accountability. so what has been socially unacceptable is now socially acceptable. "Toilet", yes. Some of that is due in part to being force fed diversity on every freaking level outside of race. Im just waiting for the next taboo thing to become the norm...

[DarkReign]

Homosexuality has never been taboo. See Rome.

[PMD]

Ummmm, this may be a reach here, but it may something to do with the fact that its ANOTHER FUCKING SPECIES?!?!

Animals arent protected by the Bill of Rights, sadly for you, humans are...hetero or homo. Sorry.
its releveant because ITS A CHOICE! regardles of the detail. A CHOICE.
And yes i was just making a point (a far reaching one at that). But you get the idea.

[Findog]

of course it does. Being with another man is a choice. So does being with an animal. Why wouldnt one be the same as another? Both are sexual preferences.

Know how I know you're gay? You're obsessed with homosexuality and you loudly proclaim your disgust with it. Be Gay. Be Proud. It's who you are. God loves you too. And btw, your attitudes aren't going to endear you to the franchise that you follow. Cuban is very much supportive of Amaechi. It makes me proud to be a Mavericks fan, just as proud as when Nash wore a "Shoot for Peace" t-shirt to the All Star Game and got called out by David Robinson. How is that war working out, Mr. Big Christian?

[PMD]

Homosexuality has never been taboo. See Rome.
really. well sad to say thats been taboo back to ancient times. An has NOT been acceptable. So rome? Why are you using chaos as an example...

[PMD]

Know how I know you're gay? You're obsessed with homosexuality and you loudly proclaim your disgust with it. Be Gay. Be Proud. It's who you are. God loves you too. And btw, your attitudes aren't going to endear you to the franchise that you follow. Cuban is very much supportive of Amaechi. It makes me proud to be a Mavericks fan, just as proud as when Nash wore a "Shoot for Peace" t-shirt to the All Star Game and got called out by David Robinson. How is that war working out, Mr. Big Christian?

From a business standpoint yes. Who wouldnt be for a guy that stood out for what he believed in...that beign said, whats to hate about the guy. Hate the act and the belief, but not the guy. Dont hate the player, hate the game right?
Why would i be obsessed? when im only responding to comments.

[Findog]

I don't think its taboo either, its just life, its not like he came up and put his penis in Tims ear. But at the same time we aren't stipping work from people in our front offices that have the same sentiments as Tim had.

I'm guessing that Tim Hardaway and all of these posters obsessed with homosexuality and in a rush to condemn it must have been molested at some point when they were younger by an older man. There's no other way to explain such hostility towards a group of people that haven't done fuck-all to you and just want to live their lives in peace with the same rights and freedoms as everybody else. Because there's nothing more moronic than equating pedophilia with homosexuality. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation all its own.

[L.I.T]

what does deism have to do with any of this? Aside from the idea that thats what you obviously believe in it seems.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

why dont you read and educate yourself before making dumbfounded statements.

but if dont you care to read:
"On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea (left). Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it (right). Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task."

Typically, I don't deal with trolls, but there is something entertainingly idiotic about you.

I would just like to point out that you have effectively hijacked a thread that was supposed to be about Hardaway and his incredibly stupid remarks, but hey go with the flow right?

You see, you use the same argument that other people have used, just because I said read something about Deism does not mean I profess a belief for that particular system...I'll let you try and get what I'm saying here. Nor does this funny little quote you just put up indicate that the United States was founded on Christian belief, just that they decided to use common imagery for the great seal and that there was religious attitudes prevalent in the period. What a shock.

As to the whole "dumbfounded" and educate myself statements, well...I'll help you, go to wikipedia, type the word deism into the little search engine and see what pops up.

Look, this is the last I'm going to say on this subject, because I have more important things to do, like try and improve my fantasy basketball team. You pathetically changed argument mid-stream...going from biblical values to Christian values, to some odd religious values argument. Make up your mind.

The United States may have been colonized by Puritans, but they were more intelligent that any of us give them credit for, read up on and focus on Deism...Deeeiiiisssmmmm.

Now to bring this back to the original point of the thread. Hardaway was a jackass and nothing in the founding of this country, the organization of this country, so-called free speech, that icky feeling dumbfucks like you get when talking about gays, or just the general doucheness of immature, ill-read and idiotic fucknuts (like you and others on this thread) can excuse that. Take this tip, go to school far far away from wherever you are, because it's become obvious that your current environment has become hindrance to your mental development.

[PMD]

I don't think its taboo either, its just life, its not like he came up and put his penis in Tims ear. But at the same time we aren't stipping work from people in our front offices that have the same sentiments as Tim had.
well of course its not taboo now. and youre insane to think that it was way back when. In overseas cultures, maybe. But that really depends on where you go. Besides, if it wasnt taboo, then why is he making such a big deal about it now?

dig.

[Purple & Gold]

I've always heard the biggest gay bashers and homophobes are actually more than likely gay themselves and are projecting their hate outwards so that they don't have to deal with their own issues. While people that are indifferent to it are secure with themselves and have nothing to hide.

Just saying.....

[L.I.T]

really. well sad to say thats been taboo back to ancient times. An has NOT been acceptable. So rome? Why are you using chaos as an example...

Ok, couldn't resist. Not been taboo, taking attitudes developed during the Dark Ages and back-dating them to 'ancient times' does not a truth make. There is an incredible amount of research that demonstrates it was an accepted part of human society, up until the Dark Ages and the rise of the Roman Catholic church. Now, good bye, good luck and good night.

[PMD]

Typically, I don't deal with trolls, but there is something entertainingly idiotic about you.

I would just like to point out that you have effectively hijacked a thread that was supposed to be about Hardaway and his incredibly stupid remarks, but hey go with the flow right?

You see, you use the same argument that other people have used, just because I said read something about Deism does not mean I profess a belief for that particular system...I'll let you try and get what I'm saying here. Nor does this funny little quote you just put up indicate that the United States was founded on Christian belief, just that they decided to use common imagery for the great seal and that there was religious attitudes prevalent in the period. What a shock.

As to the whole "dumbfounded" and educate myself statements, well...I'll help you, go to wikipedia, type the word deism into the little search engine and see what pops up.

Look, this is the last I'm going to say on this subject, because I have more important things to do, like try and improve my fantasy basketball team. You pathetically changed argument mid-stream...going from biblical values to Christian values, to some odd religious values argument. Make up your mind.

The United States may have been colonized by Puritans, but they were more intelligent that any of us give them credit for, read up on and focus on Deism...Deeeiiiisssmmmm.

Now to bring this back to the original point of the thread. Hardaway was a jackass and nothing in the founding of this country, the organization of this country, so-called free speech, that icky feeling dumbfucks like you get when talking about gays, or just the general doucheness of immature, ill-read and idiotic fucknuts (like you and others on this thread) can excuse that. Take this tip, go to school far far away from wherever you are, because it's become obvious that your current environment has become hindrance to your mental development.
so what is it that youre saying throughout that entire garbled mess. You mixed in a few curse words and a few misstimed shots to make it seem like "o well he must not know what hes talking about". When you really didnt explain anything or respond to anything. Obviously you have the freedom to say what you want and its quite clear that you obviously didnt have anything else to do with you time. And yes i said Christianity because obviously there are millions of bibles, but there is only Christianity.

Ans yes i read what tim said and i quote (before it gets misquoted again and again):
"You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people," Hardaway said. "I'm homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

Look i dont condone hate in any manner, and it is wrong to hate people. But its the lifestyle that hes outspoken about

[PMD]

Ok, couldn't resist. Not been taboo, taking attitudes developed during the Dark Ages and back-dating them to 'ancient times' does not a truth make. There is an incredible amount of research that demonstrates it was an accepted part of human society, up until the Dark Ages and the rise of the Roman Catholic church. Now, good bye, good luck and good night.
Seriously when and where was that...

[Kermit]

Now how I know you're gay? You go on and on about how disgusting homosexuality is. These guys are either playing a character and trolling to elicit indignant responses....or they doth protest too much, if you catch my drift.

um, asshole. i'm defending amaechi here. learn to read. try hooked on phonics.

[DarkReign]

Ok, couldn't resist. Not been taboo, taking attitudes developed during the Dark Ages and back-dating them to 'ancient times' does not a truth make. There is an incredible amount of research that demonstrates it was an accepted part of human society, up until the Dark Ages and the rise of the Roman Catholic church. Now, good bye, good luck and good night.

Bingo. Do your research, bigot. Homosexuality was not only accepted, it was actually pretty widespread. But it wasnt exclusive. If we were to term it today, everyone was basically bisexual, only they didnt look at it that way.

[Findog]

um, asshole. i'm defending amaechi here. learn to read. try hooked on phonics.


No need for namecalling. My mistake for using "you." I meant the royal you and I was referring to the other posters. I'm on your side on this issue.

[DarkReign]

Seriously when and where was that...

Rome. Persia. Byzantine. Basically every society (I exclude Asia because I dont know for sure) pre-Catholicism. Need I go further?

[PMD]

who is making a big deal Tim or John? Tim is making a big deal because he's an ignorant biggot asshole. John is doing it to make a difference for the better and probably some green too.
Make it difference for what? He did it to make money! ESPN is behind his book, hell be on oprah inside of a month i guarantee! So youre gay...BIG DEAL keep it to your circle of friends, be with who you want in that case and no one will pass judgement on you like they have already. So now other gay atheletes are going to come out?? Youre crazy to think that. he did it for the money. :greedy

[Kermit]

No need for namecalling. My mistake for using "you." I meant the royal you and I was referring to the other posters. I'm on your side on this issue.

the royal we? you know, the editorial we...

[PMD]

Rome. Persia. Byzantine. Basically every society (I exclude Asia because I dont know for sure) pre-Catholicism. Need I go further?
Hold on not even close to every society...

So do you even know what taboo means? "Social and ethically unaccpetable"
As it has been for a very long time. i would say acceptable in some areas during those dark ages as has been for a very very long time.

[DarkReign]

Hold on not even close to every society...

So do you even know what taboo means? "Social and ethically unaccpetable"
As it has been for a very long time. i would say acceptable in some areas during those dark ages as has been for a very very long time.

If you equate the time of Rome, Persia, et all as "Dark Ages", then you sir are a bigot and an idiot.

No one can be this stupid and have lived to see 15.

[DarkReign]

WTf am I doing in this thread? I am only talking to one person who clearly has no idea what theyre talking about.

Peace.

[L.I.T]

Seriously when and where was that...

Jesus Christ, I keep wanting to go to sleep and you keep dragging me right back in. God help me, but I do so enjoy talking to bigots and morons.

I'm just curious what you would want me to respond to? Your obvious incoherent and inconsistent diatribes, or you obvious lack of historical knowledge? But seriously, your there are a billion bibles, but only one Christianity is kinda a new level of unintentional funny. It's like a Yogism, but more pathetic. You do realize how many different iterations of Christianity there are? And this even predates the formation of the commonly held 'canonical' works. You do realize that Catholicism was only held about approximately 10% of the original Christian population? How about the Gnostics?

Lets run through three major cultures: Greeks, Chinese and (for all you guys out there excited about the 300, as am I) the Spartans. All major forces in the ancient world, all historically documented as being accepting of homosexuality, or as Darkreign rightly pointed out, they didn't even care. Jeez, here's a word to the wise, when you're going to base arguments on history, make sure you've actually studied it.

[L.I.T]

WTf am I doing in this thread? I am only talking to one person who clearly has no idea what theyre talking about.

Peace.

Amen, Darkreign had the right of it.

[PMD]

hahaha hilarious. so basically you refer to me as a bigot. well im honored because theres a lot to be intolerant about in this world and i seriously doubt that youre not the same. just because im intolerant of gays! so what !!!
im a black male and i could care less about that lifestyle...youre the one whose stereotyping me without even knowing me...im tolerant about a lot of things but when it comes to that im not.

theres a lot to be intolerant about. if we werent, then yes this country is headed for the "toilet" as one poster put it.

[Findog]

im a black male and i could care less about that lifestyle...youre the one whose stereotyping me without even knowing me...im tolerant about a lot of things but when it comes to that im not.

Wait! You're a black guy? First of all, I wouldn't want black guys on my team. And second of all, if there was a black guy on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right. And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that.

You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people. I am racist. I don't like blacks. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.'

[PMD]

Wait! You're a black guy? First of all, I wouldn't want black guys on my team. And second of all, if there was a black guy on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right. And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that.

You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people. I am racist. I don't like blacks. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.'
as i said dude dont even compare racisim to being homosexual. thats crime itself... not liking someone for what they do is one thing, (ala, Tim) but not liking someone for how they were born is a totally different situation.
So dont even try to ride the coattails of racisim with this mess.

[Findog]

as i said dude dont even compare racisim to being homosexual. thats crime itself... not liking someone for what they do is one thing, (ala, Tim) but not liking someone for how they were born is a totally different situation.
So dont even try to ride the coattails of racisim with this mess.

John Amaechi had just as much choice to be gay as you did to be black. There is a definite genetic basis for being gay. I suggest doing research and educating yourself.

Were you molested? Are you gay yourself? Why so much hostility towards something that has nothing to do with you?

[nkdlunch]

Why do black guys smell funny PMD? Why are they always into chicken and watermelon?

u smell black guys? how gay

I ain't black but I'm into chicken and watermelon, they're the shit!

[Kori Ellis]

John Amaechi had just as much choice to be gay as you did to be black. There is a definite genetic basis for being gay. I suggest doing research and educating yourself.

Though I believe that there is a genetic basis for being gay, like you say. It's also true that many people do choose to be gay. I don't believe for a second that every person who commits homosexual acts was born to it.

I lived (roommates) with a lesbian girl for a couple years after college, and I firmly believe she was born gay - she had feelings for women since she was a kid. But also in Los Angeles, I definitely knew a lot of people who were part-time gay just for the novelty of it, or didn't care what sex they were getting sex from, or decided that men had treated them poorly so they were going to only sleep with women from now on, etc.

Basically I'm saying though some people are born gay, other people choose to be gay.

THIS IS NOT MY STANCE, JUST A POINT OF VIEW: Some people will argue that even those that are born gay should know that it's "morally wrong" and be able to stop themselves from committing homosexual acts. Just like some people might be born with a pre-disposition to violence, yet realize that it's wrong, so they control the urge and don't go around killing people.

[sprrs]

as i said dude dont even compare racisim to being homosexual. thats crime itself... not liking someone for what they do is one thing, (ala, Tim) but not liking someone for how they were born is a totally different situation.
So dont even try to ride the coattails of racisim with this mess.

What ignorance. For most being gay is genetic. You're born with it and can't do anything about it. Insulting a person for something he can't help is just childish and stupid.

[PMD]

John Amaechi had just as much choice to be gay as you did to be black. There is a definite genetic basis for being gay. I suggest doing research and educating yourself.

Were you molested? Are you gay yourself? Why so much hostility towards something that has nothing to do with you?
why would i jump into something that i know is biased in the first place? The fact that there "may" be a defective gene that certain scientists think they have found that may prove that people are born gay?? Man plz. Theres 10 times the evidence to disprove any of that so i suggest that YOU do the research instead of wasting my time with that nonsense. Behavior is not genetic! Fact is were all predisposed to the genes that were inherited by our parents and theyre parents parents. All that, is information, genetically, but information nonetheless. now how any of us interprets that, you never know. fact is people have a choice to make whatever they do. They arent predisposed to a particular outcome like that.. But thats not even the issue. The fact that people have gone away from "religion" (ill cal it for you) has led to all of this. that way it is very easy for people to begin to accept that unbalanced conditions are normal, unavoidable and should be tolerated or legalized. There are many many conditions that contribute to all that, and a lot of it has to do with parental disfunction in the home.

[PMD]

so regardless of whatever science you can come up with. Anyone here can be anything that their parents were; ie gamblers, racists, atheletes, etc etc. Its a genetic thing. All information stored away. But we have a free will to do with what we want and to chose what we want to become, and that is not genetic. That a choice.

[PMD]

(wouldn't make a difference anyways)

[Flight3107]

John Amaechi had just as much choice to be gay as you did to be black. There is a definite genetic basis for being gay. I suggest doing research and educating yourself.

Were you molested? Are you gay yourself? Why so much hostility towards something that has nothing to do with you?

LMFAO @ people believing in the "Gay Gene"

[PMD]

Thats it I hate black people for being black. They chose to be black and fuck them for that they must have been molested or burned pretty bad by the white man to ultimately decided to be black. I'm sick of seeing people say they were born black, chinese, messican or Indian when they clearly chose their own path. Fuck them, fuck them to hell.
and I'M the bigot ... even as a sarcastic joke, thats in horrible taste.

[mountainballer]

Basically I'm saying though some people are born gay, other people choose to be gay.


yes. end of story.
a enlightened community shouldn't even wast time by debating if it is genetic, or if it is by choice.
as if it did matter.
people use the "born gay - no choice" argument, as if there was something that has to be forgiven and it makes it easyer, if nature was responsible.
who cares. let people do what they want.
btw:some of my friends would care more, if they knew, that I spend quite some time on a sports forum, than they would care if I was gay.

[Findog]

why would i jump into something that i know is biased in the first place? The fact that there "may" be a defective gene that certain scientists think they have found that may prove that people are born gay?? Man plz. Theres 10 times the evidence to disprove any of that so i suggest that YOU do the research instead of wasting my time with that nonsense. Behavior is not genetic! Fact is were all predisposed to the genes that were inherited by our parents and theyre parents parents. All that, is information, genetically, but information nonetheless. now how any of us interprets that, you never know. fact is people have a choice to make whatever they do. They arent predisposed to a particular outcome like that.. But thats not even the issue. The fact that people have gone away from "religion" (ill cal it for you) has led to all of this. that way it is very easy for people to begin to accept that unbalanced conditions are normal, unavoidable and should be tolerated or legalized. There are many many conditions that contribute to all that, and a lot of it has to do with parental disfunction in the home.


BlahBlah Blah Blah Blah...homosexuality is a genetic condition, evolution helps explain how we got here, global warming is a real phenomenon, and gravity is what keeps our feet on the ground. If you believe otherwise, you're fucking retarded.

[Findog]

and I'M the bigot ... even as a sarcastic joke, thats in horrible taste.

The only thing in bad taste is being an antigay bigot...Your comments and your attitudes will look just as ridiculous as looking back at some of things said by Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms in opposition to civil rights. I know blacks bristle at comparisons between the civil rights movement and gay rights, but you are playing the role of the Klan in this. You're on the wrong side of history and you're a bigot. Deal with it.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I read this whole thread and felt stupider for having done so.

Can you believe a Pro athlete who has been coddled his whole life and taught that any perceived lack of masculinity is a fault said these type of things? What a shock.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Does Hardaway have any kind of comments in his past that would make this any less surprising? I just hope this doesn't create a public perception that any basketball player that doesn't have at least three pictures of him shaking hands with a gay guy is a bigot. If folks start going out of the way to show their tolerance for everyone, well, a fake atmosphere of peace and love is almost as obnoxious as what Hardaway had to say.

The problem surrounding this issue is that there are such vocal, polarized groups on both sides that believe you can't just not have an opinion on this. If you're not out in the street shouting that gays should shot or that we need a gay president by 2012 you're part of the problem. Oh for the day when we can all come together in the spirit of apathy.

[PMD]

BlahBlah Blah Blah Blah...homosexuality is a genetic condition, evolution helps explain how we got here, global warming is a real phenomenon, and gravity is what keeps our feet on the ground. If you believe otherwise, you're fucking retarded.
so youre right and im the bigot.

you just proved the definition of the word. :toast
So just because i dont coddle and 100% agree with homesexuality im an antigay bigot. Sorry if im not on board and watch will & grace 24/7. Now youre saying im playing the role of the Klan??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha wait.... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha

People can do what they want, i dont have to like them for it. I have my views as do you, but the so called peoples "crusade for gay rights" have been the only ones cursing me and everyone else for having a contrary opinion.

[Findog]

so youre right and im the bigot.

you just proved the definition of the word. :toast
So just because i dont coddle and 100% agree with homesexuality im an antigay bigot. Sorry if im not on board and watch will & grace 24/7. Now youre saying im playing the role of the Klan???

People can do what they want, i dont have to like them for it. I have my views as do you, but the so called peoples "crusade for gay rights" have been the only ones cursing me and everyone else for having a contrary opinion.

Nobody's asking you to drink champagne coolies and brush up on your interior decorating skills. All gay people want is to just be left alone and have the same rights, opportunities and freedoms as you or I. There's a higher standard to meet other than "Oh, well, I don't want them killed or thrown into concentration camps." Bigotry is corrosive and diminishes us all...it's like saying "I don't read Jet or watch BET or like the blacks but I guess I'll let them do what they want." I don't think homosexuals are asking for your "acceptance" or "tolerance." They just want to live their lives without being told that their lifestyle is disgusting and something that they chose, which you ARE guilty of doing.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Always good to see people have more respect for some book written 2000 years ago than their fellow man. Great stuff.

[PMD]

See the problem with that is when they make it NEWS like John Amechi has, or when they shove it down your throats 24/7 then its an issue. Gay rights? Now theyre trying to get that into schools and what not? No, what they want is much more than just saying its ok. Thats trying to be pushed everywhere. If they just wanted to be left alone, then he would have kept that to himself, instead of drawing excess attention to himself. End of story. Just because its there doesnt mean that i have to accept it! What the heck? The problem is that you want much more than tolerance. You want acceptance and you can always have that sir.

[PMD]

Always good to see people have more respect for some book written 2000 years ago than their fellow man. Great stuff.
"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.
That I don't revere paper?

Sorry, human beings are more important to me. Calling something wrong not because it causes any harm, but because it goes against some words printed on a page is the epitome of ignorance.

[Melmart1]

"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.
Little judgemental, are we?

[PMD]

That I don't revere paper?
im done.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

im done.
Too bad, I was hoping for a scripture response to my edit.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

This thread has officially been flushed.

My fiance has been friends with a male individual since birth. When they would play together, he wanted to play Barbies, and be Barbie. When his father took him to the bike store and told him "Any bike you want" he picked the flourescent purple with pink streamers on the side, with a matching pink helmet at age 5. He never really had guy friends, always hung out with girls. He'e the best dressed person in any crowd. A degree in interior design.

I, like alot of you morons in this thread, used to think homsexuality was a choice. While I still believe its fashionable to be gay these days and alot of people do choose to be gay, I finally realized people are born gay.

Everyone knew he was gay since he was young, I think he did as well, but bigots like you ass-clowns kept him from coming out. Its prejudice pieces of shit that walk the earth that would threaten, harass and probably assault gay people. He doesnt live in California, he lives in Michigan, not exactly popular to be gay here.

He came out (officially) last year at age 25. Just this Valentine's Day, he finally built up enough courage to tell his mother. She said "Pffffft, I've known that since you were 3 years old. I'll always love you."

Tell me how fucking cool that is? Hes standing up in my wedding and probably the best friend we have.


It's so true, because if you've ever known gay people for most of your life they have pretty much always drifted that way since they were young, without even knowing what being gay meant. But people are so ignorant and some are so quick to place being gay in conflict with their religious doctrines.

I have one friend, sadly, who thinks people are gay because they are cursed.That persons related to them did in the past who were immoral, or evil have brought on consequences in the form of cursing family members in the future. :wtf

Yes, people are this pessimistic

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Though I believe that there is a genetic basis for being gay, like you say. It's also true that many people do choose to be gay. I don't believe for a second that every person who commits homosexual acts was born to it.

I lived (roommates) with a lesbian girl for a couple years after college, and I firmly believe she was born gay - she had feelings for women since she was a kid. But also in Los Angeles, I definitely knew a lot of people who were part-time gay just for the novelty of it, or didn't care what sex they were getting sex from, or decided that men had treated them poorly so they were going to only sleep with women from now on, etc.

Basically I'm saying though some people are born gay, other people choose to be gay.

THIS IS NOT MY STANCE, JUST A POINT OF VIEW: Some people will argue that even those that are born gay should know that it's "morally wrong" and be able to stop themselves from committing homosexual acts. Just like some people might be born with a pre-disposition to violence, yet realize that it's wrong, so they control the urge and don't go around killing people.


The only difference between being pre-disposed to want to kill people/commit violent acts is that it is clearly unnacceptable in our society. This fact keeps a lot of people who are inclined to want to kill stop, and go against their desires/predispositions.

For being a homosexual, though, there isn't any consequence in the form of law. They have no reason to not go through with their desires/inclinations, unless they want to avoid the criticism from people.

[sprrs]

im done.
Think ab out it like this. I'm assuming you know at least one person who isn't christian. Do you hate them for it? Do you avoid them? I doubt it. If homosexuality is immoral according to the bible, then I can only imagine how bad following a different religion is.

Even if homosexuality is a choice, there's nothing that should keep you from openly accepting them, especially in this country. Just like you accept someone who is of a different religion.

[Medvedenko]

Look...I'm straight...but how did I know I was straight...I loved women from since I can remember....Also a homesexual act doesn't make you "gay"....women kissing other women doesn't make you a lesbian. It doesn't work that way. Bi-sexuality is a farce as well. Also, why the hell would anyone choose to be gay in this world when they get shit on by most people. Seriously, some people are born gay, just like I was born straight. Choosing to kiss a dude or kiss a women is a choice, doesn't make you gay or straight.

[Kori Ellis]

The only difference between being pre-disposed to want to kill people/commit violent acts is that it is clearly unnacceptable in our society. This fact keeps a lot of people who are inclined to want to kill stop, and go against their desires/predispositions.

For being a homosexual, though, there isn't any consequence in the form of law. They have no reason to not go through with their desires/inclinations, unless they want to avoid the criticism from people.

Or they think it's morally wrong. Which was my point in the post.

Many people believe that we might be predispositioned or inclined to do things that are wrong morally and/or legally, but our morals keep us from doing them.

Again, this is not my whole stance on the gay issue. However, I know several Christian people in LA who chose a life a celibacy because they were attracted to members of the same sex, but felt homosexual was morally wrong.

The theory being, if you feel that homosexuality is a sin, then you would try to avoid committing these sinful acts like you do any other sinful act.

Anyway, my stance is that I think some people are genetically born with homosexual tendencies. But I think others actually choose to be gay.

And some believe that even those who may be genetically born with the tendency, can and should try to avoid it.

[Medvedenko]

Kori...do you choose to be straight.....

[clambake]

Lebron James made some controversial remarks, first. What if....what if Stern paid Hardeway to take a foul for the future of the NBA? Remove focus from the NBA's budding star.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Or they think it's morally wrong. Which was my point in the post.

Many people believe that we might be predispositioned or inclined to do things that are wrong morally and/or legally, but our morals keep us from doing them.

Again, this is not my whole stance on the gay issue. However, I know several Christian people in LA who chose a life a celibacy because they were attracted to members of the same sex, but felt homosexual was morally wrong.

The theory being, if you feel that homosexuality is a sin, then you would try to avoid committing these sinful acts like you do any other sinful act.

Anyway, my stance is that I think some people are genetically born with homosexual tendencies. But I think others actually choose to be gay.

And some believe that even those who may be genetically born with the tendency, can and should try to avoid it.


Exactly. Good post. :clap

[CuckingFunt]

Bi-sexuality is a farce as well.How do you figure?

[atxrocker]

It'll be sad when this thread dies and PMD is no more. Until the next gay bashing thread that is. A damn shame.

[Capt Bringdown]

You really have to wonder why some people are so obsessed with and so threatened by other people's sexuality. Perhaps Tim Hardaway doesn't have a firm grasp on his own sexuality? It must be a drag to be so frightened and unsure, and that's typically when hate enters the picture. A classic closet-case, to be sure.

The NBA's a worldwide sport nowadays, with no room for provincial bigotry and backward thinking. As Amaechi pointed out, perhaps there's some good to come out of this. I've got no doubt that Hardaway's opinion is shared by a lot of players and fans...maybe this is a chance to start a dialogue between those who hate and those who accept and love.

[CuckingFunt]

I just like to gay bash, cuz they hetero bash way too much..so fuck 'em.

That's asinine. "Bashing" is a lot different when one one the people/groups involved is clearly in a position of power.

[sabar]

Is this joke of a thread still going?
This is a chronical of our society. A cross section of bigotry in the United States and elsewhere.

If being straight is natural, I'd like to hear an explanation for homosexual animals. Do male ducks get together just to start controversy and promote a "gay agenda" among their species? 6-8% of rams (male sheep) are homosexual. What about homosexuality in primative tribes which are totally secluded from today's popular society?

People are quick to say "oh, it's unnatural". Guess what, only 6% of animal species are monogamous, many animals masturbate, and many birds rape other birds to death. But where are the people rushing to embrace what is natural?

Does anyone here have a real arguement against homosexuality?
This idiocy spawns stuff like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Final Solution.

[jochhejaam]

I, like alot of you morons in this thread, used to think homsexuality was a choice. While I still believe its fashionable to be gay these days and alot of people do choose to be gay, I finally realized people are born gay.

He came out (officially) last year at age 25. Just this Valentine's Day, he finally built up enough courage to tell his mother. She said "Pffffft, I've known that since you were 3 years old. "

Labeling those with opposing view as "morons" doesn't lend one iota of credibility to your view DR, it merely serves to expose you as having nothing substantial to contribute to the discussion along with being arrogant.

The lady new her son was gay at the age of three?? The parents role, in part, is to give our children direction in life, not to support them in everything decision they make. They encouraged him into a lifestyle that they had to know would alienate and stigmatize him from the mainstream populace. Well done. That's called dsyfunctional parenting.

And I thought Hardaway was ignorant. He ain't got nothin' on them or you in this matter.


Not that you are open minded, but some in the forum are, and here's what the scientific community has to say about being born gay or being born with homosexual genetics;

Is There a "Gay Gene"?
Many laymen now believe that homosexuality is part of who a person really is * from the moment of conception.


The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?


No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.




How The Public Was Misled


In July of 1993, the prestigious research journal Science published a study by Dean Hamer which claims that there might be a gene for homosexuality. Research seemed to be on the verge of proving that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeablea normal variant of human nature.


Soon afterward, National Public Radio trumpeted those findings. Newsweek ran the cover story, "Gay Gene?" The Wall Street Journal announced, "Research Points Toward a Gay Gene...Normal Variation."


Of course, certain necessary qualifiers were added within those news stories. But only an expert knew what those qualifiers meant. The vast majority of readers were urged to believe that homosexuals had been proven to be "born that way."


In order to grasp what is really going on, one needs to understand some littleknown facts about behavioral genetics.




Gene Linkage Studies


Dean Hamer and his colleagues had performed a common type of behavioral genetics investigation called the "linkage study." Researchers identify a behavioral trait that runs in a family, and then:


a) look for a chromosomal variant in the genetic material of that family, and

b) determine whether that variant is more frequent in family members who share the particular trait.


To the layman, the "correlation" of a genetic structure with a behavioral trait means that trait "is genetic"-in other words, inherited.


In fact, it means absolutely nothing of the sort, and it should be emphasized that there is virtually no human trait without innumerable such correlations.




Scientists Know the Truth about "Gay Gene" Research


But before we consider the specifics, here is what serious scientists think about recent genetics-of-behavior research. From Science, 1994:


Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "Unfortunately," says Yale's [Dr. Joel] Gelernter, "it's hard to come up with many" findings linking specific genes to complex human behaviors that have been replicated. "...All were announced with great fanfare; all were greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute."{1}




Homosexual Twin Studies


Two American activists recently published studies showing that if one of a pair of identical twins is homosexual, the other member of the pair will be, too, in just under 50% of the cases. On this basis, they claim that "homosexuality is genetic."


But two other genetic researchers--one heads one of the largest genetics departments in the country, the other is at Harvard--comment:


While the authors interpreted their findings as evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality, we think that the data in fact provide strong evidence for the influence of the environment.{2}

The author of the lead article on genes and behavior in a special issue of Science speaks of the renewed scientific recognition of the importance of environment. He notes the growing understanding that:


... the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press.The same data that show the effects of genes, also point to the enormous influence of nongenetic factors.{3}






More Modest Claims to the Scientific Community


Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.


"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:


"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."{4}

But in qualifying their findings, researchers often use language that will surely evade general understanding making statements that will continue to be avoided by the popular press, such as:


...the question of the appropriate significance level to apply to a nonMendelian trait such as sexual orientation is problematic.{5}

Sounds too complex to bother translating? This is actually a very important statement. In layman's terms, this means:


It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.


Thus, to their fellow scientists, the researchers have been honestly acknowledging the limitations of their research. However, the media doesn't understand that message. Columnist Ann Landers, for example, tells her readers that "homosexuals are born, not made." The media offers partial truths because the scientific reality is simply too unexciting to make the evening news; too complex for mass consumption; and furthermore, not fully and accurately understood by reporters.




Accurate Reporting Will Never Come in "Sound Bites"


There are no "lite," soundbite versions of behavioral genetics that are not fundamentally in error in one way or another.


Nonetheless, if one grasps at least some of the basics, in simple form, it will be possible to see exactly why the current research into homosexuality means so littleand will continue to mean little, even should the quality of the research methods improveso long as it remains driven by political, rather than scientific objectives.




Understanding the Theory


There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows:


1. Heritable does not mean inherited.

2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.

Almost every human characteristic is in significant measure heritable. But few human behavioral traits are directly inherited, in the manner of height, for example, or eye color. Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.



For those interested in reading the entire article, here's the link.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Not that you are open minded, but some in the forum are, and here's what the scientific community has to say about being born gay or being born with homosexual genetics;

I for one am shocked, shocked, at what the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality has to say about this issue.

But seriously, how do you talk about an open mind and then link to that? What colour is the sky in your world?