The Suns without Nash...

[stretch]

have some serious issues. this proves again, that this team is NOT a good defensive team at all. they cannot shut down an oppoent with their defense. their only chance is by running the mess out of them and messing up their rhythem with their offense, not their defense. unless shots are falling for the Suns, teams will score at will. but if shots arent falling, they are in serious shit. they also cannot run a half court offense worth a shit. they dont have playmakers. this team is CLEARLY not championship material. they are good, but will NOT beat the Mavericks, Spurs, Rockets, Jazz, or Lakers in the playoffs. mark it.

[Xylus]

What a joke, stretch.

If the Suns are healthy in the playoffs, they'll be fine and will compete with anyone. :)

For having won no titles, you Mavs fans have to be the most arrogant bunch of fans I've ever come in contact with. :lol

[stretch]

oh dont get me wrong, they can compete. there is no question about that. but they wont win anything. there is a BIG difference between being competitive and winning. the Jazz will be competitive, but they wont win a damn thing.

back to the Suns, they dont rebound the ball well, or play good defense. you HAVE to do those things to win in the playoffs. simple as that.

[Xylus]

Suns are a good defensive team, but have stumbled over the past few weeks because they're missing 3 of their top 7 players.

Rebounding is their only weakness, but I'm sure they'll address it before the trade deadline. Don't you worry, stretch, the road to the Finals has plenty of roadblocks for your precious Mavericks.

[ducks]

if they suns do not have nash they suck

[stretch]

Suns are a good defensive team.

you are out of your mind.

[Xylus]

If the Suns had to play an entire season without Nash, if they actually had a lot more time to adjust to his absence, I'm sure they'd still make the playoffs. But when you rely on one guy to do most of the playmaking and he goes down, and then the other guy you rely on for playmaking (Diaw) goes down, naturally you get a little out of sync.

[sandeepgm]

if the suns had nash, they would have won. they lack playmakers aside from him.

[ponky]

What a joke, stretch.

If the Suns are healthy in the playoffs, they'll be fine and will compete with anyone. :)

For having won no titles, you Mavs fans have to be the most arrogant bunch of fans I've ever come in contact with. :lol

well, to be honest, the first 3-4 lines of stretch's comments are true. nash's absence doesn't explain the defensive woes that the suns are having right now, nash wouldn't be able to help out on that end much...ray allen and collison are not being defended and amare is clearly frustrated even on the defensive end.

that said, suns will get back on and keep winning when nash and diaw come back, they're a good team but that stack of cards falls when nash is out. they were winning just fine without kurt thomas so he shouldn't be used as an excuse.

[Xylus]

you are out of your mind.
I guess we'll see.

Personally, I think you're out of your mind for making snap judgments about an injury-riddled team so far from the postseason.

[stretch]

the fact is, their defensive stats are not a result of their defense. its a result of their offense. there is no question as to how deadly their offense is. but if their shots arent falling, they CANNOT rely on their defense to get them back into a game. it CLEARLY shows in Nash's absence. they cannot stop anyone for shit. and you are again, crazy to make an excuse for their defense being bad, for 3 guys who dont play a lick of defense being out. we arent talking about their offense. its their DEFENSE. IT SUCKS.

[stretch]

I guess we'll see.

Personally, I think you're out of your mind for making snap judgments about an injury-riddled team so far from the postseason.
no. ive said the same thing all season. i just now am saying that their absolute lack of defense REALLY shows now that their offensive producer is gone. they have shown that they rely on their offense to win games for them, and cannot win games with their defense and rebounding. ive said the same thing about them all season, and will continue to say the same thing now. i just think now, people that know anything about basketball, should see the truth about how poor their defense really is.

[Xylus]

if the suns had nash, they would have won. they lack playmakers aside from him.
Boris Diaw averages more than 5 assists a game and he's not playing right now.

Ponky, the Suns defense has worsened ever since Kurt Thomas went out, just like it did when he went out last season too. KT is an important piece to our puzzle.

Stretch, what you don't seem to understand is that it's not cut-and-dry. Removing Steve Nash from the lineup affects the team on both ends of the floor, because the team performs better defensively when they're performing well offensively.

Look at the box scores...ever since Nash went out, they haven't really had a problem scoring, they've had a problem defending. That's not a coincidence. Put Nash back in the lineup and the Suns will suddenly perform much better defensively.

[Xylus]

Stretch, you can make all the predictions you want, but they don't really mean shit compared to what actually happens.

Again, we'll see. :)

I'd love to continue this pointless argument, but I've got a belly to feed.

[stretch]

Look at the box scores...ever since Nash went out, they haven't really had a problem scoring, they've had a problem defending. That's not a coincidence. Put Nash back in the lineup and the Suns will suddenly perform much better defensively.

PROVING that they are NOT a good defensive team. if they have to rely on their offense to make them a better defensive team, then they are NOT a good defensive team. how hard is it to understand that. granted, better offenses do feed into the team playing better defense, but it only goes so far. this team has also shown they are not consistently capable of using their defense to fuel their offense on shitty shooting nights, and getting back into games with defense. the fact is, they rely on their offense for everything, and history has shown that those kinds of team always fail in the playoffs.

[ponky]

Boris Diaw averages more than 5 assists a game and he's not playing right now.

Ponky, the Suns defense has worsened ever since Kurt Thomas went out, just like it did when he went out last season too. KT is an important piece to our puzzle.

Stretch, what you don't seem to understand is that it's not cut-and-dry. Removing Steve Nash from the lineup affects the team on both ends of the floor, because the team performs better defensively when they're performing well offensively.

Look at the box scores...ever since Nash went out, they haven't really had a problem scoring, they've had a problem defending. That's not a coincidence. Put Nash back in the lineup and the Suns will suddenly perform much better defensively.

Eh whatever, I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument about it, I just disagree about certain aspects with regards to the Suns' offense. i do agree with you though, none of this shit really matters in the end, it just makes me happy for today...if Mavs lose tomorrow, I'll be pissed yet again! :lol

[stretch]

Stretch, you can make all the predictions you want, but they don't really mean shit compared to what actually happens.

Again, we'll see. :)

I'd love to continue this pointless argument, but I've got a belly to feed.
you couldnt be more right. im just gunna stick with what history has proven, and not even THINK about putting my money on a team that relies solely on their offense to win games.

[stretch]

at the same time, i think all of this proves that Steve Nash is the MVP. of course, i would love for Dirk to win it, but i dont think there is any question that Nash is the MVP. this team is very average without Nash. at least the Mavs have shown they are capable of playing good basketball when they are missing Dirk, and that they have playmakers and defensive abilities to win games without him, unlike the Suns.

[texas84]

i just think now, people that know anything about basketball, should see the truth about how poor their defense really is.

Phoenix can play defense. They have quick feet and quick hands. Are they a great defensive team? No. Can they win with it? Yes. Can it win a championship with it? I think so.

However, i think that they're defensive intensity more than any other contender is directly related to their offense. If their offense isn't clicking, it greatly effects their defensive mindset. Such as Nash being out (along with Diaw, but i truly believe 90% of their offense is Nash), their offense isn't in sync and instead of holding the 2nd to last in the West Sonics down to their scoring level, they try to still outscore them, which they simply can't do without Nash in there.

[schadenfreude52]

Since when has Steve Nash equaled defense? Nash is one of my favorite players to watch, but the two teams he's played for weren't great defensively when they had him. When the Mavs had Nash (and I miss those days), they were all about offense (though Nelly played a part in that). Now that the Suns have him, they too are all about offensive production. Simply put, Nash serves as a binding force for offense, especially given the Suns' lineup.

[Nashfan]

We officially suck!! :depressed

[stretch]

Phoenix can play defense. They have quick feet and quick hands. Are they a great defensive team? No. Can they win with it? Yes. Can it win a championship with it? I think so.

However, i think that they're defensive intensity more than any other contender is directly related to their offense. If their offense isn't clicking, it greatly effects their defensive mindset. Such as Nash being out (along with Diaw, but i truly believe 90% of their offense is Nash), their offense isn't in sync and instead of holding the 2nd to last in the West Sonics down to their scoring level, they try to still outscore them, which they simply can't do without Nash in there.
eh, i dont agree with you one bit about their defense. there is a big difference between being able to get steals and blocks, and being able to shut down opponents. if i had to chose between the two, ill take shut down defense in a heartbeat.

they cannot shut opponents down with their defense.

[JMarkJohns]

For the second season in a row, Thomas has gone down and whatever defensive improvements that have been made have gone down with him. At one-point this season, the Suns had a better defensive FG% than the Mavs and were consistantly in the top-10, peaking at around 6th. No longer... I have no idea why they no longer care. I have observations, but they sound more like excuses, so I won't entertain the thought...

[stretch]

Since when has Steve Nash equaled defense? Nash is one of my favorite players to watch, but the two teams he's played for weren't great defensively when they had him. When the Mavs had Nash (and I miss those days), they were all about offense (though Nelly played a part in that) and now that they Suns have Nash, they too are all about the offense. Simply put, Nash serves as a binding force for offense, especially given the Suns' lineup.
well, his offensive abilities help cause opponents offenses to get off track, which in turn makes their defense look better than it is. its hard to hit your shots when your opponent hits 3 after 3 after 3. its very distracting, and thus causes teams with little mental stability to break down, and miss a lot of shots. but teams that know how to deal with such things mentally, such as San Antonio and Dallas, can beat such kinds of "defense", if thats what they want to call it.

[Tradition]

:rolleyes :rolleyes Great another Mavs vs Suns thread.

[schadenfreude52]

:rolleyes :rolleyes Great another Mavs vs Suns thread.

and chances are, it'll turn into MVP discussion...

[stretch]

:rolleyes :rolleyes Great another Mavs vs Suns thread.
eh, its been a while since we have had a good one. lol

im just waiting for RonMexico to jump in though, and to see what kinds of off-the-wall things he will say, and how he will attempt to insult the Mavs and their fans, instead of talking about the subject at hand, because he doesnt know what the hell hes talking about.

[confined]

seriously who coudl they get that could dramaticly improove their rebounding with out giving up a marion or a diaw?

[Tradition]

oh dont get me wrong, they can compete. there is no question about that. but they wont win anything. there is a BIG difference between being competitive and winning. the Jazz will be competitive, but they wont win a damn thing.

back to the Suns, they dont rebound the ball well, or play good defense. you HAVE to do those things to win in the playoffs. simple as that.

You need much more then that. You have to be able to handle physical ball constantly, have great coaching, have role players stepping up, your best player picking his game up as the playoffs go on especially in the finals, team chemistry, health and even a little luck.

[Tradition]

That being said I wonder how we would do against this years suns in a 7 game series.

[stretch]

You need much more then that. You have to be able to handle physical ball constantly, have great coaching, have role players stepping up, your best player picking his game up as the playoffs go on especially in the finals, team chemistry, health and even a little luck.
ok. i agree with that 100%. and to add to it, you have to be able to rebound the basketball, and play defense. however, those are probably the two most important basics. all games start with defense and rebounding. if you do those things, everything else falls into place.

[stretch]

That being said I wonder how we would do against this years suns in a 7 game series.
IMO, the Lakers would absolutely win. they barely lost the series last year in 7 games, and the Lakers have improved much more than the Suns have.

[ponky]

that pic of raja and nash on the suns.com website is too cute, those little tigers are adorable!

[schadenfreude52]

that pic of raja and nash on the suns.com website is too cute, those little tigers are adorable!

gah! I hate the suns' website. They always have those retarded flash intros..

[sandeepgm]

I am glad the suns lost today cos i think the mavs will lose to the rockets tommorrow..

[Tradition]

IMO, the Lakers would absolutely win. they barely lost the series last year in 7 games, and the Lakers have improved much more than the Suns have.

If Kobe gets others involved and if we CONSTANTLY attack the basket especially Odom, then we do have a realistic chance of pulling an upset.

[ponky]

gah! I hate the suns' website. They always have those retarded flash intros..

haha, my bf was just bitching about that because he's trying to get on their site to see if this was the lowest scoring game for them this season...i type in something like /schedule to avoid that stupid flash stuff

[ponky]

I am glad the suns lost today cos i think the mavs will lose to the rockets tommorrow..

me too! hmmm, well, i hope we're both wrong!

[stretch]

If Kobe gets others involved and if we CONSTANTLY attack the basket especially Odom, then we do have a realistic chance of pulling an upset.
yea Odom is the key. honestly, i think the Lakers have the ability to beat any team in the league in a 7 game series, but Odom and Luke Walton are the keys. i dont think they will beat the Mavs or Spurs in a 7 game series, of all the teams in the west, the only team i even fear a little bit for the Mavs, is the Lakers. you never know what Kobe will do.

[Celtic Pride]

Could it be that the Suns Offense is their best Defense? If the Suns are healthy with Nash, they shoot lights out from 3 and run. It forces the other teams to play from behind and rush shots. Most of those shots are missed which add to the Suns defensive stats. When the Suns have to play at the other teams tempo, it seems that it is harder for the Suns to get rebounds when needed and stops when needed. Just my thoughts.

[stretch]

Could it be that the Suns Offense is their best Defense? If the Suns are healthy with Nash, they shoot lights out from 3 and run. It forces the other teams to play from behind and rush shots. Most of those shots are missed which add to the Suns defensive stats. When the Suns have to play at the other teams tempo, it seems that it is harder for the Suns to get rebounds when needed and stops when needed. Just my thoughts.
that is exactly their "defense". but when their shots arent falling, or if they are playing teams that are mentally mature enough to know that they are not supposed to get into a run-and-gun game, and slow the tempo down, taking good shots, then that "defense" falls apart. basically, the Suns would have to rely on hitting their shots to beat such teams, as opposed to shutting them down and limiting their shot opportunities with hard-nosed, physical defense.

[ponky]

OMG, the GSW announcer just said "you can bet your booty on that" LMFAO!!!

[RonMexico]

Suns don't play defense unless their offense is clicking. Yes, their offense forces other teams to play at their pace and that helps, but they pick up both ends of their game when the offense is at its best. Either way, I'm glad Kurt Thomas got injured now instead of at the end of the season... and if he and Nash stay healthy throughout, then I can see another WCF run depending on seeding.

[mavsfan1000]

A fully healthy suns team would own the lakers. That is counting on Nash, Diaw, and Kurt Thomas being fully healthy. The suns are still the second best team and are struggling because of injuries. Their team defense has gone down along with their offense because players are confused with their roles since they just got put into it. So in a strange way the suns defense got worse with the injuries despite the players that got injured aren't known for their defense except Thomas.

[Cry Havoc]

Suns are a good defensive team,

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270209021

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261222021

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261207017

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270115029


Allow Dr. Cox from Scrubs to put this more succinctly than I ever can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

*mods, if it's not legal, just baleet it*

[DubMcDub]

What a joke, stretch.

If the Suns are healthy in the playoffs, they'll be fine and will compete with anyone. :)

For having won no titles, you Mavs fans have to be the most arrogant bunch of fans I've ever come in contact with. :lol

Gee, who'd have thought the team with the best record in the NBA would have some arrogant fans.

And spare me the "regular season championship", "how many titles?" nonsense. You think Celtics fans should be running around oozing arrogance screaming "16 championships!" down the streets? All that matters is the here and now. Mavs fans are arrogant here and now cause our team is kicking the shit out of everyone here and now. Don't need any trophies to do that.

[Celtic Pride]

* running down street*
"16 championships!"
"16 championships!"
"16 championships!"

*stops and thinks*
"This isn't the 1986 season, it's the 2006 season."

*Ron Simmons form the WWE looks at me and says*
"DAMN!" :lol

[mabber]

For the second season in a row, Thomas has gone down and whatever defensive improvements that have been made have gone down with him. At one-point this season, the Suns had a better defensive FG% than the Mavs and were consistantly in the top-10, peaking at around 6th. No longer... I have no idea why they no longer care. I have observations, but they sound more like excuses, so I won't entertain the thought...

It starts and ends with D'Antoni. Unless he demands the effort on defense, he won't get it. It's that way with any coach/team for the most part. D'Antoni is more interested in offensive perfection (which at times the Suns come close to). It really is scary how similar he is to Don Nelson (outside of different ways to run an offense) in how he runs a team.

[Nashfan]

A fully healthy suns team would own the lakers. That is counting on Nash, Diaw, and Kurt Thomas being fully healthy. The suns are still the second best team and are struggling because of injuries. Their team defense has gone down along with their offense because players are confused with their roles since they just got put into it. So in a strange way the suns defense got worse with the injuries despite the players that got injured aren't known for their defense except Thomas.


Hey for once I actually agree with you. Well, it might not be the first time. :lol

[Amare_32]

How many more Suns vs Mavs threads are we going to have to endure? I can't wait for the playoffs to settle this at least for this season.

[Amare_32]

It starts and ends with D'Antoni. Unless he demands the effort on defense, he won't get it. It's that way with any coach/team for the most part. D'Antoni is more interested in offensive perfection (which at times the Suns come close to). It really is scary how similar he is to Don Nelson (outside of different ways to run an offense) in how he runs a team.


He preaches defense more then people give him credit for. Are the Suns ever going to be confuse for the Spurs or the Pistons the answer is likely no but when they are active in the passing lanes forcing turnovers and doing a decent job on the boards they can hold thier own. Plus the Suns are pretty good at defending the 3 point line when they put thier minds to it. When thier offense is clicking thier defense is adequate enough to win. However sometimes it seems they forget about defense when the shots are not falling. BTW I appreciate the irony of Mavs fans talking about defense. After all the Mavs are where they are today due to Don Nelson. He put the Mavs on the map as legit contenders and gave Avery his chance to be the Head coach.