Bonfire or No Bonfire

[samikeyp]

Since it UT-A&M week I thought I would pose the question....

Should Bonfire continue?

Now I am not a graduate of either school so I am not so ignorant as to drop "we" or "us" in reference to either school. I root for the Longhorns (although like a loyal Texan, I root for A&M when they play an non-Texas school) but I believe that the tradition of the Bonfire should return as a school-sanction activity with proper supervision. A&M is one of the best engineering schools in the country, there would be plenty of former students who would be glad to lend their expertise in this. The only condition I would have is getting the blessing of the families of those kids who died. Texas A&M has a lot of great traditions, with proper planning, there is no reason why this great tradition should not continue.

[Duff McCartney]

A&M is one of the best engineering schools in the country, there would be plenty of former students who would be glad to lend their expertise in this.

Weren't people making cracks about A&M when this happened?

[samikeyp]

They were. The students were handling the stacking and drinking while doing it. You bring in professionals and eliminate the alcohol.

[Duff McCartney]

You bring in professionals and eliminate the alcohol.

Whoa whoa whoa...lets not go overboard here...

[2pac]

Let me qualify all this. I am an A&M graduate. I was a Bonfire Crew Chief. I lost a very good friend in the collapse and a couple acquaintences. A number of friends were injured. I have read the Bonfire commission report twice (the report on what caused the collapse.)



Weren't people making cracks about A&M when this happened?

Yes, there are lots of people with no class.


The only condition I would have is getting the blessing of the families of those kids who died.

Really has nothing to do with it. There are a couple families that will never do this, a few that are indifferent and a few that are for Bonfire again under certain restrictions (read safe.)


The students were handling the stacking and drinking while doing it. You bring in professionals and eliminate the alcohol.

Alcohol has nothing to do with Bonfire's collapse.




Bonfire is currently off-campus. It is safe and strong. The plans for the off-campus bonfire were drawn up by a engineering firm and the building is being overseen by certified engineers.

I believe that Bonfire will return, but it will not be the same as it used to be. It will be much smaller, and will eventually grow bigger.

Bonfire will not return until the lawsuits are settled. Who knows when that will be finished. Until then, I would encourage everyone to stand behind the student built, student run off-campus Bonfire. This is the way for Bonfire to continue safely until the administration has its hands untied by the lawsuits and can welcome Bonfire back on campus.

If there are other questions, feel free to ask me.

[samikeyp]

I'm sure alcohol could not have helped. If the people involved in the actual building of the logs were drinking then it could have. I don't know if that was true because unless you were there, which I wasn't, there is no sure way to know.


The plans for the off-campus bonfire were drawn up by a engineering firm and the building is being overseen by certified engineers.

That is good to know.

You really think the families of those kids that died don't matter?

[Marcus Bryant]

The major problem was tradition. There were warning signs, notably the one Bonfire collapse which occurred in the mid-90s when the soil shifted after some heavy rains. I participated in one cut and never worked on stack so I don't have an intimate knowledge of the construction methods, but the perception certainly was that there was not any real oversight from the university as well as not much technical help from the engineering college. If I am not mistaken I believe that over the years some profs had raised some concerns about the design but were ignored.

In general I think Bonfire must return. Obviously with some changes. It was definitely a great event every fall and one I looked forward to. It was a major unifying force on campus, another part of what made campus life unique at A&M.

I will also say that when the tragedy occurred that the UT faithful by and large were tremendously supportive. Those who had no class tended to be those incapable of attending either university.

[samikeyp]

I will also say that when the tragedy occurred that the UT faithful by and large were tremendously supportive

Yes they were. It was a good sign of sportsmanship.


Oh and I do agree.....those people who made those jokes were pretty classless.

[2pac]

I'm sure alcohol could not have helped. If the people involved in the actual building of the logs were drinking then it could have. I don't know if that was true because unless you were there, which I wasn't, there is no sure way to know.

Generally, people that were doing the construction were not drinking. The guys on the swings were sober. The guys in the cranes were sober.





You really think the families of those kids that died don't matter?

No - I dont think they matter. Some will always be angry and bitter. I think they should be listened to, but I don't think that they should be the ones making the decisions about what happens with A&M. I hate that they had this loss, and it is such a tragedy - but if Bonfire can be built safely, I see no reason not to do that.

Last year's Bonfire proved that it can be built safely - it just cant be an ego trip for A&M like it was when it was a 110' structure.

It isnt the burning that is important - it is the building.

[Marcus Bryant]

The major problem wasn't alcohol but the design itself. I'm sure 2pac can elaborate on that much more than I could ever hope to.

[samikeyp]

They lost children...I think they have a right to be angry and bitter. I would like to see the blessing of the families but I do not think it needs to be a requirement. But to leave them totally out I think is wrong. If some choose not to be involved that is their choice. The thing that bugged me at time was that if anyone not related to A&M talked about the tragedy, right away the "you are not an Aggie, you wouldn't understand" card was dropped. Tradition is important but never more important than a life. Some people I talked to at the time said that to me when I said maybe it was a good idea to suspend it while they figured out what happened, not to do away with it permanently.


but if Bonfire can be built safely, I see no reason not to do that.
That was my point all along.

[samikeyp]

The guys on the swings were sober. The guys in the cranes were sober. That is good to know too. There was a lot made about the drinking...glad to see there is fact to refute the rumor.

[2pac]

The major problem wasn't alcohol but the design itself. I'm sure 2pac can elaborate on that much more than I could ever hope to.

There were design problems that were too numerous to count.

Alcohol made cut much more dangerous than stack ever was. Its always been thought that cut was much more dangerous than stack, because of the axes and trees falling. Alcohol there is a huge problem.

Design problems
1. The administration (1992ish) decided to have Bonfire at the Polo Fields (where it fell.) The Red Pots (main leaders) asked in writing for the fields to be leveled, because the fields were visably angled. The angle was about 2 degrees. Not the best foundation.

2. As the years progressed, the administration asked for Bonfire to look more like a perfect wedding cake. This means that the logs that were stacked were more vertical. Comparing 1990 to 1999 - there are huge changes in how vertical the logs were.

This made the "HOOP STRENGTH" weaker. Think of Bonfire as an old west barrell. The metal hoops is what keeps it together. Bonfire was much the same way. The stronger the hoop strength (the pressure keeping it together) the stronger the Bonfire is. There is a pressure that all these logs have that is pushing against that. When that pressure became bigger than the hoop strength, Bonfire fell.

3. Each log on Bonfire was wired to two other logs when it is slammed to Bonfire in three different places with baling wire. Obviously, top, middle and bottom. There was constant pressure by the administration to have Bonfire fall within 30 minutes after it was lit. Because of that, the leaders of Bonfire were forced to only use baling wire at two places on each log instead of three - dividing the hoop strength by 1/3.

4. You know those giant cables that ground telephone poles? Its about 3/4" thick? Every time Bonfire got wrapped with trees, two of those went around the the logs, to add strength. Because of pressure to have it fall sooner, only one wire was put on.

5. Students were wiring the logs poorly in 1999. (When they wired the logs to each other.)

Thats just a few things off the top of my head. It isnt just one thing - there were a huge number of things that contributed to it - all coming down from the administration.

If you remember from the 1980s, Bonfire wouldnt fall for about 3-4 hours. In 1998, it fell in like 10 minutes.

[samikeyp]

well it sounds like things are getting worked out...why do you think the administration won't support it?

[2pac]

They lost children...I think they have a right to be angry and bitter.

I agree. But because they cannot seperate the tremendous emotional loss from the greater good, I dont think they should have any say in the tradition. I want to be clear though, that the tradition isnt worth the life of anyone. This should not be done if it is not safe.



The thing that bugged me at time was that if anyone not related to A&M talked about the tragedy, right away the "you are not an Aggie, you wouldn't understand" card was dropped.

That because of the incredible amount of people who were completely insensitive to the tragedy we were living through, and were just saying "hey you idiots, you died building a fire." If you arent apart of it, you really cant appreciate what it means to those of us that are apart of it.


Some people I talked to at the time said that to me when I said maybe it was a good idea to suspend it while they figured out what happened, not to do away with it permanently.


I agree. We found out the reasons in around May 2000. We had engineered plans by 2001. But the tradition cannot continue until the lawsuits are over. Hence, off-campus Bonfire.

[2pac]

well it sounds like things are getting worked out...why do you think the administration won't support it?

The current administration will support on-campus bonfire when the lawsuits are over. The former administration would not.

[samikeyp]

Good to know. Thanks for the info.

Back on topic....so you are a yes for the bonfire? :)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yes for Bonfire.

The moment the last lawsuit gets settled, Gates will have a press conference saying we'll be having a Bonfire the following year.

90% of Bonfire wasn't about the fire, but about cutting logs out at Cut Site with your friends. For Bonfire to really "come back", there will have to be a student cut.

BTW, another factor contributing to the collapse was that they were driving all the logs down into the stacked layer beneath the ones being worked on (think of the logs being wedged into the level below).

That helped contribute to the "hoop" failure 2pac talks about above.

[samikeyp]

I am all for a student cut...as long as those steps to insure safety that 2pac mentioned are in place.

[Jimcs50]

They can have a bonfire with a few logs, they do not have to build it to the freaking sky. Other schools have bonfires with about 20-30 logs and that is plenty. They went way overboard with that monstrosity and just wasted trees.

[2pac]

They can have a bonfire with a few logs, they do not have to build it to the freaking sky. Other schools have bonfires with about 20-30 logs and that is plenty. They went way overboard with that monstrosity and just wasted trees.

A&M isnt other schools.

The logs come from land that ranchers want to clear anyway. By cutting the trees and hauling them off, we make the land value higher, and present a free service to these ranchers, since they dont have to clear it themselves. There is generally a long line of land-owners who want to have their land cleared by 5,000 Aggies.

Trees are replanted in other places, where they are welcomed.

[jalbre6]

Wow guys, I had no idea about what all was involved in producing the bonfire. Thanks for all of the information. I hope it comes back, but that is for the Aggie family to decide. It's a great tradition.

[2pac]

BTW: the Off-Campus Bonfire is on Sunday. If anyone is interested in seeing what it is like, feel free to contact me. I havent been working it this year because of work, but I will be up there a couple times this week and will sleep out there all weekend.

http://www.studentbonfire.com/