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big3bigD
02-27-2007, 10:26 AM
We're No. 2?
'Revenge Of The Nerds' Vs. Mavs
By Mike Fisher - DB.com

When I read John Hollinger and his assertion that because of his Holy Grail of "point differential,'' the Spurs are the best team in the NBA and the Mavs are not, I can only assume the ESPN.com statgeek has traded his eyeballs and his common sense in exchange for a calculator. And a faulty one, at that. Because the entire foundation of his argument (maybe even his career!) is silly and unsupportable.

ESPN.com's Hollinger's Power Rankings utilizes most of all "point differential'' to determine that the best team in the NBA is not the 47-9 Mavs, but the 39-18 Spurs. How much sense does it make? As much as the argument that a pound of bricks weighs more than a pound of feathers.

As Hollinger says himself in his twisted explanation: "How the @#%$ are the Spurs ranked No. 1 in the Hollinger Power Rankings?"

In my writing career, I've been more of a "personality guy'' than a "numbers guy"; that is, I'm far more intrigued with the moods and thoughts and talents of the people than I am the empty mountains of statistics. I leave the latter to the Pocker-Protector Gang. But Mr. Hollinger's assertion is too ridiculous to ignore. So with the help of 75-Member Staffer David Lord, some brilliant questioners from DB.com Boards and Monday's 110-87 dismantling of Atlanta , let's take it apart, piece by preposterous piece:

HOLLINGER: "At first glance, I understand how this seems totally illogical. San Antonio has lost twice as many games as Dallas, for crying out loud, and the Mavs are currently riding a 11-game winning streak -- their third double-digit win streak this year. They're 46-5 since an 0-4 start and haven't lost consecutive games in more than three months. But the key word here is "first glance." One of the biggest reasons I created this ranking is to force people to look beyond the superficial first impression. In this case, it involves looking past win-loss record at the elements that go into it.''

DB.COM: Of course, now the present Mavs win streak is up to 12. The Mavericks are the fourth team in NBA history with three winning streaks of 10 or more in a season, having already had runs of 12 and 13 games. The Milwaukee Bucks (1970-71), Philadelphia 76ers (1980-81) and Los Angeles Lakers (1999-2000) are the other teams with three winning streaks of 10 or more games in a season.

Don't like the "science'' of those numbers? "First glance'' might be the real enemy of the scientist. But "first glance'' is what causes you to be attracted to Marilyn Monroe. If you "look beyond the. ... first impression,'' and you take her rather zaftig measurements and her overly-painted-on makeup and her mind-altering substance consumption. ... you miss the big picture, you overlook the obvious, you over-think the apparent.

Forget the textbook 36-24-36. Marilyn was hot.

Besides, like Marilyn's sexiness, win-loss record isn't "first glance.'' Win-loss record is EVERYTHING. Hollinger cleverly tucks the word "superficial'' into the sentence "I created this ranking is to force people to look beyond the superficial first impression.'' His assumption is faulty -- this first impression is not at all superficial. It is EVERYTHING.

The silliness here is glaring. Hollinger is using point differential to try to tell you a team's ability to WIN. But he gives PD a higher weighting than their actual success at the task we are trying to predict. ... getting a WIN. In a (needless?) quest for some "hidden'' and minor truth, he ignores the obvious and important truth. His formula cannot see the forest for the trees.
HOLINGER: "As I've been trying to beat into people's heads over and over again, point differential is a better indicator of future success than win-loss record. In other words, if you were trying to pick a game between the Mavs and Spurs tomorrow, you'd be better off ignoring the standings at looking just at point differential.''

DB.COM: But, John. ... if I was trying to pick a game between the Mavs and Spurs tomorrow, I might actually ignore the standings. I'd definitely ignore point differential. If I was trying to pick a game between the Mavs and the Spurs tommorow, I'd simply check what happened between Mavs-Spurs yesterday: In their last 11 meetings, including the playoffs last spring, Dallas is 7-4 against San Antonio. Wouldn't a 7-4 record be a good predictor of Dallas superiority?

As Lord points out, "Hollinger's basic thesis is that point differential is a measure of skill, while winning close games is typically as much about luck as skill. As a result, he would like for us to believe that the Mavs are LUCKY to be on a 70-win pace, and it's only because they are luckier than SA and Phoenix when games get close that they are far ahead of the league.

Those of us who actually watch the games to see who is playing well (rather than rely on stats to tell us what is happening) can see very clearly that the Mavs have developed an ability to measure their opponent and then do what it takes to win. If it's a weaker team, they may drift to a double-digit deficit before dialing up the effort and taking the game. But if it's a team that represents a threat, we typically see more intensity from the outset because they have less margin for error. And if it's a back-to-back, or a team that beat them before, then they know they are going to be challenged and they always win those games. That's not luck - it's a great team knowing exactly what it takes to win, and when needed giving a small hint of just how dominant they can be.

But whatever the case, in games that are in doubt, as you get closer and closer to the end of the game, the performance gets better and better. In Hollinger's world, that's just a big ol' pile of luck. But in reality, it's evidence of a team that's playing on another level. And sitting behind his laptop looking at all his numbers, Hollinger is missing out on recognizing these Mavs for who they are: a dominant team showing their greatness when they feel they are tested. They play as hard as they have to, to get the win they came for.

Call them lucky if you want, when it comes to winning. But chance favors the prepared and the skilled.''

How calculating are the Mavs? JJ Barea, the end-of-bencher, entered the Atlanta game with five minutes left in the first period. Why? Because Avery Johnson knew his Mavs could survive Monday with Barea in the lineup while saving fuel for a Tuesday nighter in Minnesota.

How does the Hollinger Power Rankings account for all that?
HOLLINGER: "You'd be surprised to learn that San Antonio, not Dallas, has the best point differential in the league, at +7.9 points per game. (Actually, Dallas is third at +7.7 -- Phoenix also noses in ahead of them).''

DB.COM: Even if Hollinger's Holy Grail of point differential is indeed all-important. ... the difference between San Antonio, Phoenix and Dallas is .2 points?! (It's worth a check today: If Dallas made up the .2 against Atlanta, are the Mavs now the No. 1 team?! Whoopee!!)

What the Mavs have done is "learn how to win." (As the Spurs have long done.) Neither SA or Dallas plays with the intention to "win point differential,'' or to "blow people out.''

The most recent Exhibit A of my argument came Monday at American Airlines Center against the lowly Hawks. Dallas held a 15-point edge at halftime. The outcome was nevere truly in doubt. Now, Dallas beat a poor Atlanta team by 23. Meanwhile, San Antonio beat a good Toronto team by a healthy margin.

How does that cause the Hollinger Power Rankings to bend? Who knows? Who cares? Had the Mavs won by 24 instead of 23, Hollinger's system would respect them more. How ridiculous is that?

HOLLINGER: "Additionally, the Spurs don't seem like they're losing any steam.''

DB.COM: This is simply inaccurate, and on two levels.

1) SA had gone 6-4 in the last 10 before another win on Monday over Toronto, so they have improved, I suppose. But since when is SA's six-wins-in-10-outings more impressive than Dallas' 10-wins-in-10-outings? What sort of pretzel logic is that? Because among SA's wins are three blowouts? Is the goal to win some blowouts, or to win games period?

Besides, the Spurs have indeed lost steam --- if they're being compared to great Spurs teams of the past. This can be proven by looking at numbers if you wish; they are 38-19, they are a fat 8.5 games behind Dallas, and they recently completed a wobbly road trip.

Or it can be proven by The Eye Test. Just as we suggest Hollinger glance up from his keyboard and actually WATCH Dallas, he should be watching the Spurs and their aging jump-shooters and their thinning bench and their step-slow defenders (has Hollinger not been watching Duncan on the defensive end?). ... The Eye Test insists they are losing steam. Inarguably.

2) Um, what do you mean "Additionally, the Spurs don't seem like they're losing any steam''? When did the Hollinger Power Rankings start allowing for such unscientific and subjective hoohah?

HOLLINGER: "(The Spurs) just haven't been as fortunate in close games. ... The Spurs' problem isn't age or a lack of fire or any of the other ideas trotted out in recent weeks. It's that they're 5-10 in games decided by five points or less, while the Mavs are 12-2. That's the main reason the teams are 8 1/2 games apart in the standings, not any difference in the quality of their play.''

DB.COM: I'm completely befuddled. Now it comes down to "being fortunate''? Dallas has won 47 of 52. ... that's the result of "luck''? .Hollinger is acknowledging if it's a close game, the Spurs will lose it. And if it's a close game, the Mavs will win it. That's his argument IN FAVOR of the Spurs?!

Back to the Atlanta win. Devean George and Greg Buckner didn't play due to injury, and Josh Howard exited the game with an ankle problem. Is that "being fortunate''? If those three guys are healthy, does Dallas win by 33? By 43? Does it matter?

A great example of Dallas' dominance comes from when Dallas beat Miami by 12 last week. The Mavs entered the fourth quarter leading by 30. According to Hollinger, the Mavs are a "better'' team if Moe Ager stays in warmups and Dirk stays in the game, because then 30 doesn't shrink to 12.

But to me, the WIN establish enough.

Dallas wins more road games than SA, wins more overall games than SA, hasn't lost at home since Dec. 7, wins more head-to-head games than SA. ... and in a landslide wins more close games? What else is there?

I'll tell you what else there is: There is the Hollinger Power Rankings, which provides a different (read: warped) angle on NBA ratings. And there is Mr. Hollinger's justification for numbers that simply don't add up. So Mr. Hollinger is stuck with his numbers -- and left trying to massage the truth to fit those numbers. But some truths cannot be explained away by deceptive raw numbers; some truths just ARE.

HOLLINGER: "Not only is there nothing "wrong" with the Spurs, this actually might be San Antonio's best team since their championship squad in 1999. ... The Spurs are a major threat to win the championship, and. ... they're No. 1 in the rankings because, as heretical as this may sound, they're playing better than everyone else right now. Dallas included."

DB.COM: Even Coach Pop is chortling at all of this. The Spurs, right now, are not what they were. They are certainly a threat to win a title (my system, a combination of the standings, head-to-head work, The Eye Test, historical trends and other boring and mundane measurements, puts them likely right behind Dallas, Phoenix and Detroit). But the idea that San Antonio is playing better than the Mavs? Since when did "playing better than'' mean anything other than "winning''? As was mentioned on DB.com Boards (I'll paraphrase): Point differential is a by-product of success, not the measure of success.

Finally, some real proof that debunks Mr. Hollinger's position -- and he'll appreciate it because I'll speak Geek to him:

If point differential is the be-all and end-all, then the Points Differential Champion should win the NBA Finals, right? Or at least that team should make it to the Finals, right?

Here are the last four years of Finals participants, and their point differential rank:

2006 Miami (5th) over Dallas (3rd)

2005 SA (4th) over Det (5th)

2004 Det (2nd) over LAL (7th)

2003 SA (3rd) over NJ (4th)

Now, I'm no statgeek. But I can read. And I don't see the team with the top differential there anywhere.

Relying in any way on ESPN.com's Hollinger's Power Rankings to gain a view of the NBA is akin to the view an apartment dweller gets from peering through his peephole. He sees something. ... but he'd see a lot more if he'd quit peeping and just open up the whole damn door.

mabber
02-27-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm not sure why rankings during the regular season matter to anyone???

big3bigD
02-27-2007, 10:42 AM
They don't make any difference in reality. I am simply pointing out that his formula is bullshit.

trueD
02-27-2007, 11:04 AM
That was a great piece, you write that big3bigD?

I like stats, but this writers logic ROCKS way better than stats talk.

Thanks for the great read!

big3bigD
02-27-2007, 11:59 AM
That was a great piece, you write that big3bigD?

I like stats, but this writers logic ROCKS way better than stats talk.

Thanks for the great read!

Hollinger relys far too much on stats. His numbers actually do lie....

LEONARD
02-27-2007, 11:59 AM
Hollinger OWNED...

and yes, rankings are pointless...

MrChug
02-27-2007, 12:59 PM
Hollinger OWNED...

and yes, rankings are pointless...

Slight ommission of an important clarifier there leonard: REGULAR SEASON RANKINGS are pointless ultimately.

big3bigD
02-27-2007, 01:03 PM
Slight ommission of an important clarifier there leonard: REGULAR SEASON RANKINGS are pointless ultimately.

Ultimately everything is pointless in the NBA season except for the Finals winner.

I say no media coverage of the regular season or playoffs at all! None of it means anything anyway... NO NBA COVERAGE UNTIL THE LAST GAME OF THE FINALS! :fro

Spurminator
02-27-2007, 01:19 PM
What is it with Dallas fans and Power Rankings?

monosylab1k
02-27-2007, 01:32 PM
What is it with Dallas fans and Power Rankings?

Oh come on, it's fun. We all know it's meaningless, but it's fun to bitch about it. And we all know that Mavs fans' favorite thing to do is bitch about how bad our team is getting screwed.

And if Mavs fans didn't have anything to bitch about, then Spurs fans' favorite thing to do - bitch about how much bitching Mavs fans are doing - would be gone as well.

ChumpDumper
02-27-2007, 01:35 PM
If I were a classic thread, I'd be pissed.

big3bigD
02-27-2007, 01:35 PM
Look at the Spurs threads and you will see that even the ever classy and knowledgeable Spurs fans have several threads related to power rankings...

What is it with these Spurs fans and their power rankings anyway??

nkdlunch
02-27-2007, 01:41 PM
Mavs #2? sounds about right, after WC Finals that is.

Spurminator
02-27-2007, 01:53 PM
Look at the Spurs threads and you will see that even the ever classy and knowledgeable Spurs fans have several threads related to power rankings...

What is it with these Spurs fans and their power rankings anyway??


We think they're funny.

You guys get emotional about them.



Just sayin.

u2sarajevo
02-27-2007, 02:19 PM
Too bad you think Hollinger's Rankings are "B.S."..... here's a ranking that you might have been interested in....

Mansa (L.A): If the Lakers make a strong push for the 4th seed to end the season, is there any chance kobe can get MVP? I now its unlikely, but just wondering.

John Hollinger: (1:17 PM ET ) I think what you really mean is No. 5, but with the No. 4 record -- Utah will be the 4 seed even if the Lakers pass them and Houston in the standings. In any event, the MVP is so completely sewn up by Dirk Nowitzki that only a Livingstonesque injury could take it away from him at this point.

monosylab1k
02-27-2007, 02:24 PM
Too bad you think Hollinger's Rankings are "B.S."..... here's a ranking that you might have been interested in....

That just continues to show what an idiot Hollinger is. There's no way Dirk wins MVP. Too much anti-Mavs and anti-Cuban sentiment in the nation. They'll give it to T-Mac or Kobe or Lebron or Nash or Duncan or anybody else over Dirk.

kskonn
02-27-2007, 02:31 PM
Look at the Spurs threads and you will see that even the ever classy and knowledgeable Spurs fans have several threads related to power rankings...

What is it with these Spurs fans and their power rankings anyway??


actually you will see that most people on this board agree that hollingers ranking are BS. Most people comment that while the spurs are playing better they are not even close to the mavs, but I guess we are just all to worried about "our power rankings" to actually watch the games and realize how good the mavs are playing.

kskonn
02-27-2007, 02:34 PM
That just continues to show what an idiot Hollinger is. There's no way Dirk wins MVP. Too much anti-Mavs and anti-Cuban sentiment in the nation. They'll give it to T-Mac or Kobe or Lebron or Nash or Duncan or anybody else over Dirk.


Maybe the impression you get is that their in to much anti-mavs going on in the media, but I disagree. I think you guys and espicially Dirk are getting the coverage and approval from just about everyone. Some people are idiots and still won't give them their credit, but those people are far and in between. Personally I think Dirk is a lock for MVP barring any major colapse. However if he did not receive the MVP this year it will be as bad,or maybe worse, than when Malone got the MVP award over duncan.

Celtic Pride
02-27-2007, 03:32 PM
SA beat writer agrees that Hollinger is a moron ...
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Good well-balanced read from SA on Hollinger's warped stat-skewed view of the NBA.
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Buck Harvey: Hail Spurs, the champs of statistics

Web Posted: 02/27/2007 12:32 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News

The Spurs won again. The Dallas Mavericks, only 8.5 games ahead in the standings, may never catch up.

Those unaware of the magic of numbers may not understand this. The Spurs impressed against Toronto by pumping up their point differential, and this is the kind of stuff that prompted an ESPN.com writer to declare Monday the Spurs are the NBA's best team.

San Antonio should be giddy about the news — if not for one problem. These same formulas projected Jackie Butler, not Francisco Elson, would be the starter this season. Better yet, these same formulas also had something to do with the Spurs signing Butler.

This is the work of ESPN.com's John Hollinger. He is one of several who have tried to do with basketball what Bill James did with baseball. Hollinger has searched for answers through numbers, and sometimes his data has impressed; Mark Cuban once announced Hollinger was his favorite writer.

Before this season, Hollinger ranked all NBA players based on a projection of their per-minute production. In what amounted to statistical guessing, Tim Duncan ranked seventh among power forwards, just four spots ahead of Houston's Chuck Hayes, and Bruce Bowen ranked 315th.

Hollinger wrote then that Bowen, because he doesn't block shots or get steals, is hard to evaluate. "Statistically, he really is near the very bottom of the league — he's just so good defensively that it offsets his lack of numbers."

But that's just it. If Bowen offsets his lack of numbers, then what good are the numbers?

That's also why some NBA scouts roll their eyes when it comes to this reliance on stats. Numbers may define baseball, and basic statistics can reveal obvious trends in any sport. But the essence of basketball is too fluid to base too much on numbers.

After all, how does anyone quantify a solid pick? A computer can't see how a teammate meshes with another. And Bowen, after Monday's game, came up with something else that no box score shows.

He held his hand in a reporter's face.

Hollinger isn't simplistic. He attempts to rate teams, for example, by weighing home-road records, as well as the always-vital point differential. That's how his data spit out this week that the Spurs currently are the league's best.

"At first glance," Hollinger wrote, "I understand how this seems totally illogical."

It's totally illogical at second glance, too. The Spurs are contenders, and they are playing their best right now. But put them ahead of Dallas? Only a computer would do that.

Hollinger's work has been in the public domain, but he's taken it further. To use his words Monday, he said he has pointed teams "in the right direction."

Among those he's helped are the Spurs. Asked if they paid him, Hollinger said, "I'd prefer not to disclose that."

It's the blurry dot.com world, where columnists sometimes act like fans, and everyone poses as journalists. And last summer, when the Spurs signed Butler with advice from Hollinger, the move was later hailed by, well, Hollinger.

"For the Spurs to get a young player of this quality this cheaply was highway robbery," Hollinger wrote in his preseason projection story. "All they were missing were the ski masks."

Larry Brown loved Butler, too, and who knows? Maybe Butler develops in time.

But Hollinger's per-minute analysis turned Butler into something he isn't.

On an awful team and in limited minutes, Butler put together enough stats for Hollinger to say, "I expect him to be a revelation this season as the Spurs' starting center."

Elson instead started again Monday, and afterward, Gregg Popovich made sure to commend him. "He did a great job," Popovich said.

Great? Elson had only six points, only five rebounds, only one block. But he slowed Chris Bosh, just as Bowen chased Anthony Parker. And these are the ways the Spurs can actually become the league's best team.

Findog
02-27-2007, 03:50 PM
Hollinger wrote then that Bowen, because he doesn't block shots or get steals, is hard to evaluate. "Statistically, he really is near the very bottom of the league — he's just so good defensively that it offsets his lack of numbers."

But that's just it. If Bowen offsets his lack of numbers, then what good are the numbers?

That's also why some NBA scouts roll their eyes when it comes to this reliance on stats. Numbers may define baseball, and basic statistics can reveal obvious trends in any sport. But the essence of basketball is too fluid to base too much on numbers.

I've really enjoyed the sabermetric approach to statistics pioneered by Billy Bean and the Oakland A's, as far as striving for economic efficiency when putting together a roster. And certainly those principles are being applied by some NBA GM's. The problem primarily with basketball statistics is that they really only measure what a person does when they actually touch the ball. And with the exception of point guards, who probably handle the ball 30% of their time on the court, most players are without the ball 90% of the time they're playing.

If you want to evaluate an individual team, just watch their fucking games. Watch their competition's games. If you want to evaluate an individual player, follow him instead of the ball when you're watching the game. You'll see so much more when you watch the game from a perspective of a scout and follow a particular player instead of where the ball is.

Hollinger says that what he wants to do with this formula is come up with an accurate measure of predicting future success. That's fool's gold, as there would be no need to play the games if we could forecast with relative certainty the result. The Mavericks have certainly compiled the most impressive performance so far of all 30 teams, and if I were a betting man, I'd favor them over San Antonio or Phoenix, but that's why they play the games. Nothing's a lock. Just ask last year's Pistons what dominating the regular season got them.