NBC: Marine Allegedly Assasinates Wounded Iraqi

[Nbadan]

From Immoral leaders comes immoral behavior...

NBC Says Marine Shot Dead Wounded Iraqi Prisoner


LONDON (Reuters) - A television pool report by U.S. network NBC said on Monday that a U.S. Marine had shot dead an unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in Falluja.

The Iraqi was one of five wounded prisoners left in the mosque after Marines had fought their way in on Friday and Saturday. There was no immediate comment from the Pentagon (news - web sites) on the report.

U.S. forces launched an offensive one week ago on Falluja, and have gained overall control of the formerly rebel-held city, although scattered resistance remains.

The pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it and an adjacent building, killing 10 militants and wounding the five.

more:

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=716&e=12&u=/nm/20041115/ts_nm/iraq_marine_shooting_dc)

http://www.homestead.com/CoachBurke/files/vietexecution1.jpg

more...


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Several US televison networks aired footage of members of a US marine unit entering a mosque in Fallujah before one marine shot an unarmed, wounded man in the head as he lay prone aganst a wall.


Televisions networks said the marine who killed the wounded man had been detained and could face prosecution.


The reports said the unnamed marine had been wounded in the face the day before the killing but had returned to duty almost immediately.


CBS News showed a still photo from the film depicting the marine standing above the slumped figure aiming his rifle at the man's body.


It aired excerpts of a discussion between the marines.


"He's dead now," one marine in the squad shouts after the shooting

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041116/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_fallujah_marine&cid=1514&ncid=1480)

Anyone else remember this (http://www.bushflash.com/rm/shoot_pc.ram)?

[whottt]

Unlike you Dan I'll withhold judging guilt until what happened comes out.


Until then...maybe they should rethink their decision to fight using guerilla and terrorist tactics....it tends to make people trigger happy.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The body of a blonde-haired woman with her legs and arms cut off and throat slit was found lying on the street in Fallujah, a notorious enclave for hostage-takers, marines said.

“It is definitely a Caucasian woman with long blonde hair,” said a military official, who cut open a cover that had been over the corpse.

The gruesome discovery was made as the marines moved through the south of Fallujah, hunting out the remaining die-hard rebels after a week of fierce fighting to regain control of the city.

“It is a female… missing all four appendages, with a slashed throat and disembowled, she has been dead for a while but only in this location for a day or two,” said Benjamin Finnell, a hospital apprentice with the Navy Corps, who had inspected the body.

An AFP photographer embedded with the marines said the woman was wearing a blue dress and her face was completely disfigured.

The marines said she appeared to have been on the street for about two days.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041114/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_fallujah_body

Only a clown like you Dan would call it an "assassination".

This just in... war is hell. We have had several Marines KIA in the last week because insurgents that were injured were pulling guns and/or grenades on them and taking one last American soldier with them before going to hell (err, heaven with the virgins).

Excuse the hell out of a Marine for exercising some caution, even the NBC reporter said that the insurgent was making movements and told to stop before he was shot.

Only Dan would be more outraged about one POS insurgent being offed than all of our troops killed. And only Dan could take it a step further and somehow link a Marine who had been shot in the face a day before and his actions when an insurgent acted up to our president.

*Sigh*

Dan, where was your outrage about the dismembered female found in Fallujah? Let me guess, you were waiting for Al Jazeera to blame it on the infidel American army so you could express some more "outrage."

[Hook Dem]

Sad thing when Dan dances up and down over a thing like this. Remember Dan....it says "allegedly". Pardon me if I hope you fall on your face over this one. This will not become another Abu Ghurab so put your panties back in the drawer.

[Nbadan]

What are these people guilty of?

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041114/s/r2687518677.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/154399/366.jpg

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/B/BAG10311140737-big.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041108/capt.jbm10211081511.iraq_jbm102.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041111/capt.jbm20611110150.iraq_jbm206.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40500000/jpg/_40500029_toddler-ap-300x220.jpg

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/813419D5-CC95-4505-9367-05140111C618/54061/EA10C28790F2427A8FB704479787FBAB.jpg

At least they admitted to torturing people at Abu Gharib.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Christ Dan, it's a war zone.

What did 3,000 people on 9/11 do?

What did the people kidnapped and decapitated in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. do? Drive a truck? What did the blond woman found dismembered today in Fallujah do?

What did the Iraqis that are being killed all around the country by the insurgents do? You should be carbombed for trying to make your country a better place.

All I need to know about you Dan is that you think our US military, with bullets, bombs, and shells blowing up around them and in their face, are the "assassins" and the "monsters."

[Nbadan]

It's a war zone, but targeting civilians is a war crime none-the-less. If we were after the people who plotted the 911 attacks, which we are not, they if captured alive, would be charged with war crimes on top of a bunch of other things. Same difference. 2,800 innocent civilians died on 911, but over 100,000 civilians have died as a direct or indirect result of GW2. The streets of Fallujah are crawling with burn't torsos and rotting corpses of men, women, children and elderly. Are you telling me that these peoples lives don't matter simply because they made the mistake of staying in Fallujah some too sick, or because they wanted to stay behind and look after their families belongings? For that they deserved to die? What did these people die for? We have decimated the city, bombed Mosques, hospitals, and clinics. Now we are supposed to say, hey, sorry about that, here, let me build you a new bridge or mosque and we can all forget about it?

The Battle of Fallujah is the clearest example yet that the Coalition and Allawi government doesn't have a clue about what its doing in Iraq. If they did they would have realized by now that they are going to have to make deals with some of the Sunnis that they are now fighting in Ramadi, Samarra, Haditha, Baquba, Hiyt, Qaim, Latifiyah,Taji and Khaldiyah. Fighting has been reported also in the Shi'ite holy city Kerbala. The uprising has spread across the capital as well. The districts al-Dora, al-Amiriyah, Abu Ghraib, al-Adhamiya and Khan Dhari are now largely controlled by resistance fighters. US military vehicles have been damaged and destroyed near the city Hiyt. Fighting has spread to the normally peaceful town Hilla, just south of Baghdad. The first time Polish troops have had to fight insurgents.

If the administrations strategy is to try and get the insurgents to negotiate a peace before the scheduled January elections through over-whelming force, its a bad strategy. The administrations cuddling of the Shiites and Kurds, along with Al-Sistani's deafening quietness over the deaths of Fallujah, just add to the Sunni's resentment and distrust of the Allawi Government and help propel Iraq ever closer to Civil war.

[JoeChalupa]

The casualties of war are many and happen in every war.
Innocent people die in every war.
War is hell and the best part of war is when it ends.

Under pressure some do things they wouldn't ordinarily do.

Semper Fi my brother.

[Clandestino]

A Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138673,00.html

also, remember this fucking terrorist had just been shooting at the marines. he deserved to die! dan, you should go help out your buddies you terrorist.

[Useruser666]

Dan, there is a deep seeded hatred in you for the US. I'm not sure why your beliefs are so warped and distorted. Do you honestly believe the US is targeting civilians? I wish you could experience what these troops do on a daily basis. You are unable to apply reason to any topic political. You pass judgement based on opinion and half facts. I honestly believe your entire stay here is some sort of experiment or thesis assignment.

[2pac]

Dan if you want to protect these civilians and Iraqis so much, why dont you fly to Iraq, pick up a weapon and fight along side them?

[gophergeorge]

Hey Dan....

Fuck you.

It makes me sick to think our fine men and women are dying protecting your right to spew the shit you spew.

How the fuck do you sleep at night?

[Tonto]

Although I don't always agree with Dan I feel he has a right to his opinions w/o me resorting to insults.

[gophergeorge]

Although I don't always agree with Dan I feel he has a right to his opinions w/o me resorting to insults.


Tonto, my redfaced brother... You may be right, but there comes a time to call an ass an ass.

Now get back to work. My horse needs to be fed.

Love,

The Lone Ranger

[Lee Harvey Oswald]

I think NbaDan is on Target, he sounds like me a straight shooter

[JackLalanne]

I think Dan could use a nice tall glass of prune juice to unpucker his tight ass and what a better way than with the Jack Lalanne juicer.

[Hook Dem]

The bottom line......Dan is a whippersnapper. Webster defines a whippersnapper as an insignificant individual with an overexagerated idea of his own importance http://tinypic.com/m35lv

[Useruser666]

I totally agree with one being able to express one's opinions. But with those rights, come the rights of others to discredit those same opinions. I have not insulted Dan in my posts, but I do call him out for his lack of facts. I don't want to live in a country where you can't criticise your leaders. But let's atleast base such criticisms on reality and not mindless conspiracies woven together by the thinest of threads. I want the facts, not propaganda, from either side of the issues.

Posting pics of wounded civilians or troops is fine. Why were they wounded? Dan is almost portraying these incidents as though our troops are there to just kill everyone in sight. Does anyone believe we are in Iraq to murder the civilians? Do you believe that your family members, friends, and fellow countrymen who are serving in Iraq and abroad would follow such orders if they were giving to them? There is nothing good about war. That is true enough. But sometimes we are faced with tough decisions. These troops are faced with LIFE OR DEATH choices every day. Not many of us here can say that we have ever been in a single situation like that. To so easily pass judgment is of course your right, but maybe a little thought before hand is in order.

[Hook Dem]

I totally agree with one being able to express one's opinions. But with those rights, come the rights of others to discredit those same opinions. I have not insulted Dan in my posts, but I do call him out for his lack of facts. I don't want to live in a country where you can't criticise your leaders. But let's atleast base such criticisms on reality and not mindless conspiracies woven together by the thinest of threads. I want the facts, not propaganda, from either side of the issues.

Posting pics of wounded civilians or troops is fine. Why were they wounded? Dan is almost portraying these incidents as though our troops are there to just kill everyone in sight. Does anyone believe we are in Iraq to murder the civilians? Do you believe that your family members, friends, and fellow countrymen who are serving in Iraq and abroad would follow such orders if they were giving to them? There is nothing good about war. That is true enough. But sometimes we are faced with tough decisions. These troops are faced with LIFE OR DEATH choices every day. Not many of us here can say that we have ever been in a single situation like that. To so easily pass judgment is of course your right, but maybe a little thought before hand is in order.
The only thought Dan has before hand is......."If they are for it, I am against it. If they are against it, I am for it."

[samikeyp]

It's a war zone, but targeting civilians is a war crime none-the-less

Show me proof that the US is knowingly targeting civilians.

[Yonivore]

Given that the Iraqi "insurgents" have been booby-trapping their own dead and dying militants; a breathing corpse, in a previously held militant firing position, is getting a bullet to the head if I think he's faking. Sorry, that's just the name of the game. I'm not going to give him time to detonate or start firing on me and my buddies...or the fucking cameraman that doesn't know how to erase an inflammatory piece of footage.

But, if you add to the mix, I was wounded - in the face - the day before, I'm just that much more skiddish.

[Hook Dem]

Given that the Iraqi "insurgents" have been booby-trapping their own dead and dying militants; a breathing corpse, in a previously held militant firing position, is getting a bullet to the head if I think he's faking. Sorry, that's just the name of the game. I'm not going to give him time to detonate or start firing on me and my buddies...or the fucking cameraman that doesn't know how to erase an inflammatory piece of footage.

But, if you add to the mix, I was wounded - in the face - the day before, I'm just that much more skiddish.
Now Yoni, thats rational thinking and that is something Dan isn't capable of. He will not understand what you are talking about. He llies awake at night thinking..."why doesn't everyone see it as I do? What's wrong with all these people?" He's over the edge and I personally think he is a danger to the public and himself.

[samikeyp]

or the fucking cameraman that doesn't know how to erase an inflammatory piece of footage.

I have no problem with cameramen shooting footage of the truth, but don't give me this "there are thousands of anti-US protesters" when in reality its five dudes on a coffee break. If we screw up, we screw up and if it gets caught on tape so be it. Our troops should be held to a higher standard because of what they represent.

On this particular issue, I have to agree with Yonivore....get them before they get us. How do we know he was unarmed? Maybe he was booby trapped. We just can't assume anything in that situation given the history of who we are dealing with. If he was unarmed and not booby trapped, then the Marine should be dealt with in accordance to the UCMJ.

[ClintSquint]

Sometimes Marines get carried away being Marines.
Not that I'm condoning the "alleged" incident.

[Useruser666]

Sometimes people get carried away with wanting to survive.

[bigzak25]

danny boy just loves the attention fellas. he gets his rocks off by this.

so be it.

i have no problem with our soldiers killing the cockroaches.


if/when a nuke goes off in the US, Dan will be pointing the finger at the whitehouse, if it's still there. that's all you need to know about that.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

I saw this on CNN and msnbc last night and this is just what we were discussing yesterday. You dont shoot wounded just because you can. This guy may be in big trouble. I really feel sorry for our guys.
Our man was shot in the face the day before and was back in the war just the next day. This is just a fucking shame. We are driving these kids insane just like we did in the Viet Nam war. Great.

http://www.whatididinthewar.com/buttons/libertyjustice.gif

[MannyIsGod]

For the record , when a nuke goes off in the US I will be pointing the finger at the white house who has done jack shit to strengthen border security.

Anyhow, Dan, take a deep breath, and step back. The US is not targeting civilians, and while I'm waiting to see the results of this action, I am concerned about the marines action.

It's all about perception, and if the perception in Iraq is that our soliders are assasinating people (whether true or not), we're going to have taken a step backwards.

[bigzak25]

i agree about our borders.....

i think it's sad that our media is contributing to anti-american perceptions.....

[JohnnyMarzetti]

So they should not report this?

[mysterious_elf26]

i think it's sad that our media is contributing to anti-american perceptions.....

Are you suggesting that the media lie to us for the sake of our already tarnished reputation. Yeah that's really gonna help by misleading our own people.

As for not knowing what really happened. There is a video where one marine accuses the insurgent of faking his injury and is not dead. The other one then shoots the insurgent and then say's "he's dead now."

That sounds like a war crime. Like it or not.

[Yonivore]

Are you suggesting that the media lie to us for the sake of our already tarnished reputation. Yeah that's really gonna help by misleading our own people.
No, but I would suggest the circumstances of what are reflected in that bit of footage are a whole lot more complex than most of the viewing public are willing to contemplate before they take a stance on what it "allegedly" shows.

Kind of like the Rodney King video.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh OH OH, so now the public is incapable of deciphering the video for themselves??!?!?!??!

Now, this is coming from someone who was clammoring on and on about how those same people had spoken and we should shut up with all our liberl nonsense?

Heh, actually, I agree with you that they don't understand completely. Perception is reality, even when it's not.

[Yonivore]

Oh OH OH, so now the public is incapable of deciphering the video for themselves??!?!?!??!
Yeah, pretty much.

Now, this is coming from someone who was clammoring on and on about how those same people had spoken and we should shut up with all our liberl nonsense?
And, it's the same liberal assholes spewing the same liberal nonsense that's going get this blown out of proportion. So, in essence, I'm still on message thank you very much.

Heh, actually, I agree with you that they don't understand completely. Perception is reality, even when it's not.
Personally, I think the argument over why we're no longer allowing embedded journalists would be an easier fight than having to explain every single story filed from the field of battle. But, that's just me.

[MannyIsGod]

I think the embeds do more good for your cause than harm.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Yonivore, I acknowledge that Kerry lost the election can't you acknowledge that war crimes do happen? Not every soldier is innocent.

[Useruser666]

I think everything should be reported. I don't believe the soldiers in question should be revealed atleast until they have had their due military process. I think it's easy to have a strong gut reaction to videos like this. But there is much more to this story that none of here know. This is a war, it is not your local cops stopping some one for a speeding ticket. Rules of war are hard to understand for most of us when looking at them from a so far removed perspective. From what I understand, it is very reasonable to take the actions that those marines took in that situation. Let the military investigate it and judge accordingly.

[Spurminator]

Not every soldier is innocent.

Nor is every alledged bad seed an indictment of the operation.

[Opinionater]

IMHO, this needs to be dealt with and not swept under the rug. I hope Col. Jessup isn't in charge.

[Hook Dem]

Dan...Answer if you dare.... What nationality are you??????? Show us a picture.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

but targeting civilians is a war crime none-the-less.

Therein lies the rub. Where's proof we're targeting civilians. Our military goes out of its way with smart weapons and strict rules of engagement to limit civilian casualties, to the point where we've probably lost several of our troops in Iraq (don't even get me started on Somalia) to protect civilians.



The Battle of Fallujah is the clearest example yet that the Coalition and Allawi government doesn't have a clue about what its doing in Iraq. If they did they would have realized by now that they are going to have to make deals with some of the Sunnis that they are now fighting

This post is the clearest example yet that you don't know how the fuck to win this fight Dan.

We're dealing with people who had the same mindset the Japanese did in WWII: fight to the last man. You aren't going to negotiate with them, there will be no reasoning. You've got to do the same thing we did to Japan in WWII: kill enough of them to make them want to quit fighting.

And by the looks of the body count in Fallujah, it worked. Turn the Marines lose a few more times in Iraq, the Sunnis will be at the table ready to sign up to vote and run candidates.


On the imbeds, I disagree completely that they are bad for us. In the past any time we did anything heavy handed, some little POS insurgent would cry to Al Jazeera or whoever had a video camera that we were targeting Islam, attacking their mosques.

What have you seen in Fallujha? Every time we got to a mosque or religious site, we brought cameramen with us, who broadcast footage to the world that insurgent trash was firing at troops, both Iraqi and American, from the roofs or minarets of the mosques.

Once the video is shot of that, then we are returning fire to end the threat, and sending in the Iraqis to clear the mosques.

You haven't heard a peep out of the anti-American media (either our or own or Al Jazeera) about coalition atrocities against Muslim holy sites as a result.

And these messages and images are also being broadcast all over Iraq, so that the people of that country see that the BS rumors spread on the streets saying we're razeing mosques are just that - BS rumors.

Prior to the Fallujah assault, Iraqi TV even broadcasted taped confessions of captured foreign fighters admitting their countries of origin to prove to Iraqi people that the US is not targetting Iraqis, but trying to get the foreign filth out of the country.

We had been losing the PR war in Iraq, with people beginning to embrace the idea that we are the occupiers. Foreign Muslims coming in and wreaking havoc in one's country is probably one of the few things that piss off Muslims more than an outside country like the US coming into their lands.

In short, in Fallujah we started the progress of bringing the Sunnis to the negotiating table via the "Japan approach" and before, during, and after we have been waging a very effective PR campaign to the people of Iraq and the Mideast showing that it is the foreigners we are trying to take care of, at the request and insistence of the Iraqi government.

History will show both that we started down the road to successful elections and a successful peace in Fallujah, and it will also give assholes like Dan who are rooting for USA to lose a whole lot more to cry about.

[bigzak25]

very nice AHF. enjoyed that post.

[Nbadan]

We're dealing with people who had the same mindset the Japanese did in WWII: fight to the last man. You aren't going to negotiate with them, there will be no reasoning. You've got to do the same thing we did to Japan in WWII: kill enough of them to make them want to quit fighting.

We are not fighting Al-Queda here. Yes, they are Nationalists Islamists and yes they want to kill our troops, but look at what we have done to their country. Wouldn't you do the same as them if France invaded San Antonio?

We went there to liberate these people from Saddam. Liberation done. What the hell are we still doing there?

Meanwhile, the Marines have rallied around the soldier who was captured shooting a wounded Iraqi...


~snip~

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances.

Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6828512)

[Nbadan]

The inquiry will also have to determine what happened to the other Iraqis in the room. Some of them, according to the initial NBC report, appeared to be dead or dying when Mr. Sites entered with a group of marines, joining other marines who were already there. He has suggested that the other Iraqis may have been shot just before he entered, according to The Associated Press.

On Tuesday, Mr. Sites declined to elaborate on what he had seen.

After the on-camera shooting, marines pointed their guns at another prone Iraqi who was reaching out weakly with one hand, but they backed off without shooting at him, the videotape showed.

The initial NBC report said that the Iraqis, all of whom had been wounded in fighting on Friday and then had been disarmed and left in the mosque, did not appear to be threatening, and that there were no weapons visible in the room.

The incident captured in the NBC report unfolded as members of the Third Battalion, First Regiment of the First Marine Division entered the unidentified mosque in Falluja on Saturday. Mr. Sites reported that marines from a different unit had attacked the building on Friday after coming under fire, killing 10 insurgents and wounding 5 others. The marines treated the wounded on Friday, took their weapons and then left, Mr. Sites reported. On Saturday, another group of marines, accompanied by Mr. Sites, entered the mosque, but it is unclear how many of the Iraqis were still alive then.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/international/middleeast/17mosque.html?ex=1101358800&en=89db2872762786fd&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1)

Is shooting unarmed wounded prisoners still a war crime in your America?

[Useruser666]

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/international/middleeast/17mosque.html?ex=1101358800&en=89db2872762786fd&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1)

Is shooting unarmed wounded prisoners still a war crime in your America?

If I point something that looks like a gun at you and you shoot me dead, did you commit a crime? None of us know what happened exactly. That is why it should be investigated by the military authorities.

[MannyIsGod]

I finally got to see the video on nightline last night. I know it's a warzone, and I know it must be investigated, but it doesn't look like the solidier was under a direct threat. I'll pass final judgement when the military is done however.

[Useruser666]

I finally got to see the video on nightline last night. I know it's a warzone, and I know it must be investigated, but it doesn't look like the solidier was under a direct threat. I'll pass final judgement when the military is done however.

You heard the reports of insurgents booby-trapping their own dead right? That's not Kansas.

[MannyIsGod]

right, and if the guy is dead the body is no longer booby trapped right?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Here's the musings of a former US Navy SEAL, who's actually been there...


They're Called Security Rounds

Its a safety issue pure and simple. After assaulting through a target, put a security round in everybody's head. Sorry al-Reuters, there's no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up "prisoners" and offering them a hot cup a joe, falafel, and a blanket. There's no time to dick around in the target, you clear the space, dump the chumps, and moveon.org. Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists? Negative. Hey libs, worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse for a Corpsman to spend one man minute or a battle dressing on a terrorist, its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.

By the way, terrorists who chop off civilian's heads are not prisoners, they are carcasses.

UPDATE: Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers. Here is your situation Marine. You just took fire from unlawful combatants shooting from a religious building attempting to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you're in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they're not playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down. So you run over there, and find some tangos wounded and pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like really popular with these kind of idiots, and like taking some Marines with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and your fireteam's lives by having them cover you while you bend down and search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason. Also, you don't know who or what is in the next room, and you're already speaking english to each other and its loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this terrorist that was just shooting at you from a mosque playing possum. What do you do?

You double tap his head, and you go to the next room, that's what.

What about the Geneva Conventions and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff? What about it. Without even addressing the issues at hand you first thought should be, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Bear in mind that this is a perpetual mindset that is reinforced by experiences gained on a minute by minute basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary which is a double No No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no position to take "prisoners" because there are more rooms to search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no good. No good in Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same... Marines get hurt or die. So there is no compelling reason for you to do anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.

If you are a veteran then everything I have just written is self evident, if you are not a veteran than at least try to put yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is not easy, and if you have never lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for war crimes. Be advised, I am not talking to my readers, but if this post gets linked up, I want regular folks to get this message loud and clear. Froggy OUT.

http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/2004/11/theyre-called-security-rounds.html

And Dan, fuck off. If you think what we're doing is really wrong, why don't you go over there and help "the cause"?

[MannyIsGod]

woah woah, that article suggests that because the other side doesn't follow geneva, we don't as well.

That's not our policy, and nor should it be.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and if I read one more fucking "go join the war" from you fags...

WHY AREN'T ALL OF YOU IN THE FUCKING MILITARY? WHY DON'T YOU GO SIGN UP?

DON'T DICTATE TO ANYONE ELSE THAT THEY SHOULD JOIN UNTIL YOU TAKE YOUR GUNG HO LETS KILL THEM ALL ATTITUDE STRAIGHT TO A FUCKING RECRUITER.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

WHY AREN'T ALL OF YOU IN THE FUCKING MILITARY? WHY DON'T YOU GO SIGN UP?

I'm actually waiting to hear back from the NSA and Naval Intelligence, among others.

[MannyIsGod]

Afuckingmen. Someone finally putting their ass where their mouth is.

I respect that AHF. Intelligence is really where we need more quality people.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yeah and it'd probably be a done deal if I could find someplace in this state to learn some Arabic. Learning it on my own right now.

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly why I want to take classes in it. There are so few fucking places to do so though.

[Nbadan]

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/mdf757811.jpg

A series of television pool images shot by NBC shows a U.S. Marine shooting dead a wounded and unarmed Iraqi in a Falluja mosque November 13, 2004. U.S. Marines rallied round the Marine now under investigation for killing the Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances. Photo by Reuters TV/Reuters

~snip~

A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's fucking faking he's dead."

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head," Sites said.

NBC said the Marine, who had reportedly been shot in the face himself the previous day, said immediately after the shooting: "Well, he's dead now."

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hey thanks Dan, hadn't seen that yet :rolleyes

In other news, the aid worker woman Hasson got her brains blown out by some sackless wonder hiding behind a mask. Where's your outrage on that.

Manny -

There is an Islamic center over in the Medical district on the Northwest side that supposedly teaches Arabic on Sunday and Mondays (I found the link last week, haven't called to confirm yet - am learning the alphabet on my own first so I have a little bit of a base to go on).

[Useruser666]

Hey thanks Dan, hadn't seen that yet :rolleyes

In other news, the aid worker woman Hasson got her brains blown out by some sackless wonder hiding behind a mask. Where's your outrage on that.

Manny -

There is an Islamic center over in the Medical district on the Northwest side that supposedly teaches Arabic on Sunday and Mondays (I found the link last week, haven't called to confirm yet - am learning the alphabet on my own first so I have a little bit of a base to go on).

I have seen that place before. It's off Medical Drive.

[Useruser666]

right, and if the guy is dead the body is no longer booby trapped right?

That wasn't the case in the event I was refering too. The booby-trap was setup on a dead body. This guy could have been booby-trapped or even possibly trying to set one off. Even if that wasn't the case he was a threat not long before this incident and was killed because he appeared to be a continued threat.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The booby trap concern on near dying insurgents was that in their last gasps they'd pull the pin on a grenade and take another marine or two with them.

[Nbadan]

The booby trap concern on near dying insurgents was that in their last gasps they'd pull the pin on a grenade and take another marine or two with them.

The booby trapped dead body incident was reported to have happened once. So now its OK to shoot at every Iraqi before we determine if they are combatants or not?

[Yonivore]

That wasn't the case in the event I was refering too. The booby-trap was setup on a dead body. This guy could have been booby-trapped or even possibly trying to set one off. Even if that wasn't the case he was a threat not long before this incident and was killed because he appeared to be a continued threat.
Case in point (http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/):

"One of the situational dangers of the battlefield was illustrated by the death of a California Marine. The Mercury News (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/10202599.htm?1c) reports:"

"Marine Lance Cpl. Jeramy Ailes, 22, of Gilroy was killed Monday in Al-Fallujah by small arms fire. 'They had finished mopping up in Fallujah and they went back to double-check on some insurgents. From what we gathered, somebody playing possum jumped up and shot him,' said his father, Joel Ailes, who learned of his death Monday evening. 'It's extremely hard.'"

"... His first time in Iraq, Jeramy Ailes gave $10 to each child he came across because he knew it would feed their families for 30 days. This time, he asked his family to mail as many soccer balls as they could. His family sent 300 balls, and Jeramy Ailes' platoon handed them out to children."

"Joel Ailes warmly remembered the last conversation he had with his son last month, in which Jeramy Ailes recounted how he had come across a large man walking with a 12-year-old girl carrying a huge bale of straw on her back. His son, who spoke and read Arabic, exchanged words with the man. And, for the next seven miles, his son carried the girl on his back and the man carried the bales of straw. 'That was my son,' Joel Ailes said."
That was his son.
"He's fucking pretending he's dead!" I'd of done the same thing...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So now its OK to shoot at every Iraqi before we determine if they are combatants or not?

Who says we're shooting at every Iraqi? The guy the Marine capped had been injured in a firefight minutes before with Marines. Just because the guy put the gun down when he got shot doesn't make him a civilian all of a sudden.

Damn Dan, you really can't be this stupid, can you?

[exstatic]

Just because the guy put the gun down when he got shot doesn't make him a civilian all of a sudden.

Nope, just makes him a wounded, unarmed Iraqi. You guys are bashing the shit out of Dan for what I see as a legitimate issue. Your big comeback is "Well, they're doing bad things, too!". Aren't we supposed to be better than our opponents and take the moral high ground?

[whottt]

Moral highground? You can't tell which side holds the moral highground in this conflict?

Guess what? You have a retarded sense of right and wrong.

Please leave the thinking to those with a brain.

And please stop acting like these are merely an opposing force with an equally justified POV and tactics.

These guys wear no uniform, they fight under no flag, they deliberately target and murder unarmed civillians, they fight using guerilla and terrorist methods and they use civillians as shields. On top of that their leader has said they welcome death over surrender.

And if I was fighting I'd probably prefer to have that trigger happy Marine getting my back over someone like yourself or Dan, who have no sense of right or wrong.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What does this have to do with moral high ground?

Dan is sitting here saying that an insurgent who was 5 minutes earlier shooting at the Marines somehow becomes a civilian because he puts his gun down.

That's bullshit.

As for the situation with the Marine, I stand by what I've been saying on here for days. We're fighting an enemy that acts a lot like Japan in WWII. There will be no surrender, just glory in death flighting.

There were 22,000 Japanese troops on Iwo Jima, we only took 260 prisoners. We were facing a deadly invasion of Japan, two nukes prevented that from happening.

Admiral Halsey said it best on how to win: you kill them, kill them some more, and then you keep killing them until they no longer have the will to fight.

That's what it's going to take in Iraq with the insurgents, and it's what it is going to take against Osama and AQ worldwide.

My only fault with the Marine is for not killing the POS in the first place.

[Useruser666]

Nope, just makes him a wounded, unarmed Iraqi. You guys are bashing the shit out of Dan for what I see as a legitimate issue. Your big comeback is "Well, they're doing bad things, too!". Aren't we supposed to be better than our opponents and take the moral high ground?

Ex, I am not bringing that up. None of us know all the circumstances. I agree it should be looked into. But if some one was in or around my house, had been shooting at me just before, and moved an inch, I could not tell you that I wouldn't pull the trigger at that moment. It's very hard to understand being here back home. War has a strange logic to it. When some one is doing their best to kill you, you might just react differently.

[exstatic]

What does this have to do with moral high ground?
Everything.

[Spurminator]

I think it has a lot more to do with Monday Morning Quarterbacking... but let's see what comes of the investigation.

[exstatic]

Well, they won't show us the actual video, but if he did what they say he did (and they do have video), he's toast, burnt toast. Kansas sucks, and he'll find that out over a long period of time.

[whottt]

They have shown the actual video. The Marine thought he was faking death, said so, the man continued to move and the Marine shot him. Cut and dried...the man was unarmed, but the Marine thought he was faking death, said so, and then shot him right in front of an imbed. Other wounded in the room were not shot because they identified themselves and their condition. This guy didn't. If these terrorists were fighting conventionally this probably doesn't happen. However since they have been booby trapping their own dead and using suicide attacks...I don't blame that Marine for erring on the side of caution.

One less terrorist bitch in the world. Good job Marine.

[JoeChalupa]

http://www.aboutkerry.com/images/axisvsallieds.jpg

Perhaps this is why?

[exstatic]

Poor example, Joe. Not even close. Dude was unarmed, on the ground with two in him.

You at least get slack, though, sticking up for a fellow Marine.

[JoeChalupa]

The point I was trying to make is that the insurgents use different tactics and by no means will I defend a fellow Marine when he is in the wrong.

It takes big juevos to stand up against a fellow Marine believe me I know.

But I totally agree with the image and it's meaning.

[Useruser666]

You're moving through the city taking fire from multiple locations. You and your buddies get into a firefight with a group of fighters in a house up ahead. After say 30 minutes of intense shooting you finaly make your way to the house where a lot of the lead was coming from. You and your group start going through the house room by room. You hear noises coming from a back room down a hall way. Careful checking every nook and cranny you enter the room. You see several people in the room lying about. Some moaning coming from the one to your right against the wall. Your squad mate to your right and behind keeps him covered while you refocus your attention to the two other persons lying on the floor in front of you. In the distance you can hear gunfire erupting in small bursts very clearly despite all the noise of the gear from your squad as they move through the house. You call out to the other two men on the floor. One lies motionless in a pool of his own blood. Deciding he is dead, you call out again to the other. You can see his body compressing rapidly as he breathes. He doesn't respond to your shouting. You call out again to him even louder. Nothing. His right arm shifts slightly, but it is obscured by his body. You take your M16 to sights and tense for who knows what. You call out again at what is the top of your lungs. He moves his arm again. (This next part happens in less than 4 tenths of a second Spurs fans.) As you see his arm move, it may just be in your mind, but you swear you hear a click or scrape. You see a strange shadow near his hand, his body shifts ever so slightly. Your eyes focus and refocus in an instant. What do you see? You begin, no only start to think about shouting again. He moves more of his arm as it slides ever so slightly under him. What is he doing? Doesn't he understand? Does he have something under him? Your finger tightens on the trigger. You pull the butt of the gun tight to your shoulder. His arm is still moving. BANG!!! BANG!!! He is dead. His body tenses and the releases all in one motion. Your buddies check their rifles around the room and back to the guy on the floor to your right. After more than minute you finally let the gun rest free of your shoulder. Your squad secures the other wounded fighter and checks both of the other bodies for weapons. Nothing was on them. They had dropped what they had when they were hit minutes before. You have killed an unarmed man. You don't have that sense of better him than you. You are only glad to be alive.

Is this so cut and dry? I don't believe it is. Video just can't capture what is going on in a person's head. It can't capture the stresses involved nor the tension that hangs in the air over every step these soldiers take.

[exstatic]

You know that was nice and dramatic, only ruined by him saying "Now he's dead" afterwards...

[Guru of Nothing]

There are so few fucking places to do so though.

Look up your local Army recruiter in the phone book, you arm-chair quarterback.

[Useruser666]

You know that was nice and dramatic, only ruined by him saying "Now he's dead" afterwards...

Just as long as the point gets across. I think everyone (short of Dan) wants the best for this country. I really don't disagree too much with you Ex. I think sometimes we are all guilty of jumping the gun on things. This is especially true with what is going on in the world today.

[Guru of Nothing]

Aren't we supposed to be better than our opponents and take the moral high ground?

Maybe more people like Dan should enlist and set the moral example.

[exstatic]

User, if there weren't video, and if he hadn't said "now he's dead" so cold blooded, I'd accuse anyone of jumping the gun on this right with you. I'm not sure that's even possible with all that is out about this now.

[T Park]

this marine shot someone who associates with a group of people that assasinated a woman, and beheaded civillians??

Good job marine, kill all these sick bastards, and kill more of these aholes that dare shoot or try and harm you.

[Useruser666]

User, if there weren't video, and if he hadn't said "now he's dead" so cold blooded, I'd accuse anyone of jumping the gun on this right with you. I'm not sure that's even possible with all that is out about this now.

I still don't believe that we know enough yet. And even if that was all there was to know, you just can't judge this sort ofthings from such a far removed perspective.

[exstatic]

Newsflash, TFart. You do that, you're a fucking terrorist, too.

[T Park]

Newsflash, TFart. You do that, you're a fucking terrorist, too.

nice personal attack, cute seeing as I didnt even respond to anything you said.

Keep it up though, it is becoming.


You kill someone that murders citizens and harmless people??

That makes you a terrorist??

Oh the web you liberals weave...

[CommanderMcBragg]

This young man's life should not be ruined for defending his country.

[MannyIsGod]

Look up your local Army recruiter in the phone book, you arm-chair quarterback.

Yes, because the best place to make change is with an M16 in my arms.

BTW, I don't think the army is doing much arabic teaching at the moment, because they don't have anyone to teach it.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey thanks Dan, hadn't seen that yet :rolleyes

In other news, the aid worker woman Hasson got her brains blown out by some sackless wonder hiding behind a mask. Where's your outrage on that.

Manny -

There is an Islamic center over in the Medical district on the Northwest side that supposedly teaches Arabic on Sunday and Mondays (I found the link last week, haven't called to confirm yet - am learning the alphabet on my own first so I have a little bit of a base to go on).

excellent, I'll look into that.

What I'd really like to do is go somewhere in the middle east after I graduate, perhaps with the peace corp and learn it there. I'm just not too sure if there will be any non Hot Spots there within a few years.

[exstatic]

I wouldn't go Peace Corps, Manny. Whether or not true, it's perceived as a CIA front. You should be able to find some non-governmental charitable organization. Whatever you do, if someone offers you a ticket to Pakistan or Afghanistan for further study, JUST SAY NO. I don't want to see your ass down in Gitmo as the next American Taliban.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If you really want to go over and help, I'd give the International Red Cross a shot.

[Bandit2981]

interesting...conservatives here are staunchly defending the marines actions, yet blasted kerry for doing essentially the same thing in vietnam that earned him the silver star...same shit, different day

[Hook Dem]

interesting...conservatives here are staunchly defending the marines actions, yet blasted kerry for doing essentially the same thing in vietnam that earned him the silver star...same shit, different day
Not quite Bandit! No one had a problem with him shooting that gook in the back. The problem was when he tried to portray himself as being the brave warrior for doing so. In other words..."There I was in the heat of battle" Excuse me? "heat of battle"? Wounded gook running away? I don't think so! Nice try!

[whottt]

No bandit, Kerry didn't get blasted for that....he got blasted for treasonous activity after leaving Vietnam...and for portraying himself as some kind of war hero when it suited his political purpose, while painting with a broad brush, many of his brother soldiers as being war criminals, when he was much younger, also for political purposes .

[Bandit2981]

i remember posters like Yoni saying he wasnt any sort of hero for shooting a fleeing vietcong, that there wasnt any honor in that...it just seems hypocritical to me, but thats always the name of the game in politics. i thank you for your civil responses gentlemen :)

[whottt]

The Swifties said it best...for 35 years they've had to put up with being branded as baby killers and war criminals, they've had to live with the fact that there were no heroes in the Vietnam war......mainly because of the words and testimony of Kerry.....Yet all of a sudden in this election we find out that there was 1 hero in the Vietnam War according to Democrats...Guess who....


Those guys were not motivated by future cabinet positions or money...O'neill donated the proceeds from his book to charity and now he, like most of them, is going back to private life....

They just stepped out from the shadows to let people know the score...they got their revenge on a disloyal brother....they took his ass down much like he took away their honor as soldiers....

Payback is a bitch. And Kerry had it coming.

[Hook Dem]

i remember posters like Yoni saying he wasnt any sort of hero for shooting a fleeing vietcong, that there wasnt any honor in that...it just seems hypocritical to me, but thats always the name of the game in politics. i thank you for your civil responses gentlemen :)
A very nice response Bandit. There is no need for us to bash one another. We do have a common enemy. Peace to you!

[Useruser666]

i remember posters like Yoni saying he wasnt any sort of hero for shooting a fleeing vietcong, that there wasnt any honor in that...it just seems hypocritical to me, but thats always the name of the game in politics. i thank you for your civil responses gentlemen :)

I really don't know all the facts with that case either. I never pretended too. There are differences as well as similarities. Kerry got a medal for his actions, should this Marine be punished? I have not heard from anyone in this Marine's squad say he was right or wrong. All I have heard is a bunch of opinion.

[Nbadan]

Back to the original topic, here is an interesting story related by a Slate magazine reporter imbedded with a Marine Sniper in Fallujah...


At the operational level, battle is about killing until the enemy forces are destroyed or surrender. The columnist Patrick Graham, who has reported from the insurgent side, recently wrote in the Guardian that "the U.S. Marines are the world's most lethal killing machine." In my view, that should be a source of pride to Americans. For 229 years (Nov. 10 was the Marine Corps' birthday), Marines have been at the forefront in our nation's battles, implacable in the attack. Training and tradition mold that attitude, which is essential in battle.

About one in 300 young Americans chooses to join the Marines. Most say they join for the discipline or to belong to a tough unit. These riflemen are a cross section of America. If they are at all different, it is because they have acquired the experience to be forbearing and to do their job of killing while retaining a keen appreciation for the sanctity of life and the tragedy of war.

Lest that sound like gobbledygook, let me relate a story. Based on his visits to Fallujah, Patrick Graham wrote that "it is the sniper the people of Fallujah fear more than anything else." Yet the sniper is the most discriminating of weapons, suggesting that the "people" Graham referred to were the jihadist fighters. I was on a roof during the April siege in Fallujah with a Marine sergeant who was a sniper. One afternoon, he told me, he saw an old man hobble out of his house, supported by his teenage son. They shuffled next door and returned with a few groceries. The son paused to look toward the Marine position before going indoors. On a hunch, the sniper kept watch, and a half-hour later, the young Iraqi sneaked out with a rifle, hid behind a wrecked car, and aimed in. The sniper shot him in the street. From the house came a sharp cry. A few minutes later, the old man hobbled slowly out and, step by faltering step, dragged the body back into the courtyard. The sniper watched through his scope as the old man began to dig a grave.

Marines are keenly aware of war's human toll. The sergeant had no idea what that young Iraqi was thinking. He didn't like killing someone's son. But Marines don't wear their emotions on their sleeves, and they have zero sympathy for the jihadists trying to kill them. If America needs a hard job done, the Marines will do it, and they won't lose their humanity in the process or any sleep over pulling the trigger. Yes, they are "the world's most lethal killing machine." That's what America needs in battle.


The rest of the article is gooblygook but can be read here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2109447/entry/0/)

[Nbadan]

I have not heard from anyone in this Marine's squad say he was right or wrong. All I have heard is a bunch of opinion.

Actually, some Marines have come out and supported the Marine involved in the shooting...


US marines rallied round yesterday, saying the marine was probably under combat stress in unpredictable circumstances.

Marines said they saw the shooting as the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Fallujah. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said L/Cpl Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sgt Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He did nothing wrong."

Telegraph (http://www.news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/17/wirq17.xml)

[Useruser666]

Um, Dan it almost soundslike you're changing your toon?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

interesting...conservatives here are staunchly defending the marines actions, yet blasted kerry for doing essentially the same thing in vietnam that earned him the silver star...same shit, different day

You will never see a Marine turn around and run to command begging for medals. The only time you'll see them turn around is to go back and get any fellow soldier unfortunate enough to be left behind.

And you sure as hell won't see them throwing away medals at the WH, calling their fellow soldiers murderers and rapists, etc.

Even comparing John Kerry to the Marines is a great insult to all Marines, past, present, and future.

End of discussion.