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BIG IRISH
03-02-2007, 04:55 AM
If you can read this and still tell me you are going to vote for OBAMA all
I have to say iis : at the bottom of the artice




The Connection Between Faith & Politics
By Barack Obama

(Note: the following is the text of Senator Obama's remarks to 'Call to Renewal' in Washington D.C. on Wednesday, June 28).

Good morning. I appreciate the opportunity to speak here at the Call to Renewal's Building a Covenant for a New America conference. I've had the opportunity to take a look at your Covenant for a New America. It is filled with outstanding policies and prescriptions for much of what ails this country. So I'd like to congratulate you all on the thoughtful presentations you've given so far about poverty and justice in America, and for putting fire under the feet of the political leadership here in Washington.

But today I'd like to talk about the connection between religion and politics and perhaps offer some thoughts about how we can sort through some of the often bitter arguments that we've been seeing over the last several years.

I do so because, as you all know, we can affirm the importance of poverty in the Bible; and we can raise up and pass out this Covenant for a New America. We can talk to the press, and we can discuss the religious call to address poverty and environmental stewardship all we want, but it won't have an impact unless we tackle head-on the mutual suspicion that sometimes exists between religious America and secular America.

I want to give you an example that I think illustrates this fact. As some of you know, during the 2004 U.S. Senate General Election I ran against a gentleman named Alan Keyes. Mr. Keyes is well-versed in the Jerry Falwell-Pat Robertson style of rhetoric that often labels progressives as both immoral and godless.

Indeed, Mr. Keyes announced towards the end of the campaign that, "Jesus Christ would not vote for Barack Obama. Christ would not vote for Barack Obama because Barack Obama has behaved in a way that it is inconceivable for Christ to have behaved."

Jesus Christ would not vote for Barack Obama.

Now, I was urged by some of my liberal supporters not to take this statement seriously, to essentially ignore it. To them, Mr. Keyes was an extremist, and his arguments not worth entertaining. And since at the time, I was up 40 points in the polls, it probably wasn't a bad piece of strategic advice.

But what they didn't understand, however, was that I had to take Mr. Keyes seriously, for he claimed to speak for my religion, and my God. He claimed knowledge of certain truths.

Mr. Obama says he's a Christian, he was saying, and yet he supports a lifestyle that the Bible calls an abomination.

Mr. Obama says he's a Christian, but supports the destruction of innocent and sacred life.

And so what would my supporters have me say? How should I respond? Should I say that a literalist reading of the Bible was folly? Should I say that Mr. Keyes, who is a Roman Catholic, should ignore the teachings of the Pope?

Unwilling to go there, I answered with what has come to be the typically liberal response in such debates - namely, I said that we live in a pluralistic society, that I can't impose my own religious views on another, that I was running to be the U.S. Senator of Illinois and not the Minister of Illinois.

But Mr. Keyes's implicit accusation that I was not a true Christian nagged at me, and I was also aware that my answer did not adequately address the role my faith has in guiding my own values and my own beliefs.

Now, my dilemma was by no means unique. In a way, it reflected the broader debate we've been having in this country for the last thirty years over the role of religion in politics.

For some time now, there has been plenty of talk among pundits and pollsters that the political divide in this country has fallen sharply along religious lines. Indeed, the single biggest "gap" in party affiliation among white Americans today is not between men and women, or those who reside in so-called Red States and those who reside in Blue, but between those who attend church regularly and those who don't.

Conservative leaders have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, there are some liberals who dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

Now, such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when our opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul,

:rolleyes What a politican
looking for a vote.

I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

And if we're going to do that then we first need to understand that Americans are a religious people. 90 percent of us believe in God, 70 percent affiliate themselves with an organized religion, 38 percent call themselves committed Christians, and substantially more people in America believe in angels than they do in evolution.

This religious tendency is not simply the result of successful marketing by skilled preachers or the draw of popular mega-churches. In fact, it speaks to a hunger that's deeper than that - a hunger that goes beyond any particular issue or cause.

Each day, it seems, thousands of Americans are going about their daily rounds - dropping off the kids at school, driving to the office, flying to a business meeting, shopping at the mall, trying to stay on their diets - and they're coming to the realization that something is missing. They are deciding that their work, their possessions, their diversions, their sheer busyness, is not enough.

They want a sense of purpose, a narrative arc to their lives. They're looking to relieve a chronic loneliness, a feeling supported by a recent study that shows Americans have fewer close friends and confidants than ever before. And so they need an assurance that somebody out there cares about them, is listening to them - that they are not just destined to travel down that long highway towards nothingness.

And I speak with some experience on this matter. I was not raised in a particularly religious household, as undoubtedly many in the audience were. My father, who returned to Kenya when I was just two, was born Muslim but as an adult became an atheist. My mother, whose parents were non-practicing Baptists and Methodists, was probably one of the most spiritual and kindest people I've ever known, but grew up with a healthy skepticism of organized religion herself. As a consequence, so did I.

It wasn't until after college, when I went to Chicago to work as a community organizer for a group of Christian churches, that I confronted my own spiritual dilemma.

I was working with churches, and the Christians who I worked with recognized themselves in me. They saw that I knew their Book and that I shared their values and sang their songs. But they sensed that a part of me that remained removed, detached, that I was an observer in their midst.

And in time, I came to realize that something was missing as well -- that without a vessel for my beliefs, without a commitment to a particular community of faith, at some level I would always remain apart, and alone.

And if it weren't for the particular attributes of the historically black church, I may have accepted this fate. But as the months passed in Chicago, I found myself drawn - not just to work with the church, but to be in the church.

For one thing, I believed and still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change, a power made real by some of the leaders here today. Because of its past, the black church understands in an intimate way the Biblical call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked and challenge powers and principalities. And in its historical struggles for freedom and the rights of man, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world. As a source of hope.

And perhaps it was out of this intimate knowledge of hardship -- the grounding of faith in struggle -- that the church offered me a second insight, one that I think is important to emphasize today.

Faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts.

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.

That's a path that has been shared by millions upon millions of Americans - evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at certain turning points in their lives. It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives their beliefs and their values.

And that is why that, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse.

Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome - others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.

In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, then the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Alan Keyeses will continue to hold sway.

More fundamentally, the discomfort of some progressives with any hint of religion has often prevented us from effectively addressing issues in moral terms. Some of the problem here is rhetorical - if we scrub language of all religious content, we forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice.

Imagine Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address without reference to "the judgments of the Lord." Or King's I Have a Dream speech without references to "all of God's children." Their summoning of a higher truth helped inspire what had seemed impossible, and move the nation to embrace a common destiny.

Our failure as progressives to tap into the moral underpinnings of the nation is not just rhetorical, though. Our fear of getting "preachy" may also lead us to discount the role that values and culture play in some of our most urgent social problems.

After all, the problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed, are not simply technical problems in search of the perfect ten point plan. They are rooted in both societal indifference and individual callousness - in the imperfections of man.

Solving these problems will require changes in government policy, but it will also require changes in hearts and a change in minds. I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manufacturers' lobby - but I also believe that when a gang-banger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels somebody disrespected him, we've got a moral problem. There's a hole in that young man's heart - a hole that the government alone cannot fix.

I believe in vigorous enforcement of our non-discrimination laws. But I also believe that a transformation of conscience and a genuine commitment to diversity on the part of the nation's CEOs could bring about quicker results than a battalion of lawyers. They have more lawyers than us anyway.

I think that we should put more of our tax dollars into educating poor girls and boys. I think that the work that Marian Wright Edelman has done all her life is absolutely how we should prioritize our resources in the wealthiest nation on earth. I also think that we should give them the information about contraception that can prevent unwanted pregnancies, lower abortion rates, and help assure that that every child is loved and cherished.

But, you know, my Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help fortify a young woman's sense of self, a young man's sense of responsibility, and a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act of sexual intimacy.

I am not suggesting that every progressive suddenly latch on to religious terminology - that can be dangerous. Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith. As Jim has mentioned, some politicians come and clap -- off rhythm -- to the choir. We don't need that.

In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that.

But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Moreover, if we progressives shed some of these biases, we might recognize some overlapping values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the moral and material direction of our country. We might recognize that the call to sacrifice on behalf of the next generation, the need to think in terms of "thou" and not just "I," resonates in religious congregations all across the country. And we might realize that we have the ability to reach out to the evangelical community and engage millions of religious Americans in the larger project of American renewal.

Some of this is already beginning to happen. Pastors, friends of mine like Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes are wielding their enormous influences to confront AIDS, Third World debt relief, and the genocide in Darfur. Religious thinkers and activists like our good friend Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo are lifting up the Biblical injunction to help the poor as a means of mobilizing Christians against budget cuts to social programs and growing inequality.

And by the way, we need Christians on Capitol Hill, Jews on Capitol Hill and Muslims on Capitol Hill talking about the estate tax. When you've got an estate tax debate that proposes a trillion dollars being taken out of social programs to go to a handful of folks who don't need and weren't even asking for it, you know that we need an injection of morality in our political debate.

Across the country, individual churches like my own and your own are sponsoring day care programs, building senior centers, helping ex-offenders reclaim their lives, and rebuilding our gulf coast in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

So the question is, how do we build on these still-tentative partnerships between religious and secular people of good will? It's going to take more work, a lot more work than we've done so far. The tensions and the suspicions on each side of the religious divide will have to be squarely addressed. And each side will need to accept some ground rules for collaboration.

While I've already laid out some of the work that progressive leaders need to do, I want to talk a little bit about what conservative leaders need to do -- some truths they need to acknowledge.

For one, they need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice. Folks tend to forget that during our founding, it wasn't the atheists or the civil libertarians who were the most effective champions of the First Amendment. It was the persecuted minorities, it was Baptists like John Leland who didn't want the established churches to impose their views on folks who were getting happy out in the fields and teaching the scripture to slaves. It was the forbearers of the evangelicals who were the most adamant about not mingling government with religious, because they did not want state-sponsored religion hindering their ability to practice their faith as they understood it.

Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing. And if you doubt that, let me give you an example.

We all know the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his only son, and without argument, he takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded.

Of course, in the end God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute, and Abraham passes God's test of devotion.

But it's fair to say that if any of us leaving this church saw Abraham on a roof of a building raising his knife, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham. We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that we all see, and that we all hear, be it common laws or basic reason.

Finally, any reconciliation between faith and democratic pluralism requires some sense of proportion.

This goes for both sides.

Even those who claim the Bible's inerrancy make distinctions between Scriptural edicts, sensing that some passages - the Ten Commandments, say, or a belief in Christ's divinity - are central to Christian faith, while others are more culturally specific and may be modified to accommodate modern life.

The American people intuitively understand this, which is why the majority of Catholics practice birth control and some of those opposed to gay marriage nevertheless are opposed to a Constitutional amendment to ban it. Religious leadership need not accept such wisdom in counseling their flocks, but they should recognize this wisdom in their politics.

But a sense of proportion should also guide those who police the boundaries between church and state. Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation - context matters. It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase "under God." I didn't. Having voluntary student prayer groups use school property to meet should not be a threat, any more than its use by the High School Republicans should threaten Democrats. And one can envision certain faith-based programs - targeting ex-offenders or substance abusers - that offer a uniquely powerful way of solving problems.

So we all have some work to do here. But I am hopeful that we can bridge the gaps that exist and overcome the prejudices each of us bring to this debate. And I have faith that millions of believing Americans want that to happen. No matter how religious they may or may not be, people are tired of seeing faith used as a tool of attack. They don't want faith used to belittle or to divide. They're tired of hearing folks deliver more screed than sermon. Because in the end, that's not how they think about faith in their own lives.

So let me end with just one other interaction I had during my campaign. A few days after I won the Democratic nomination in my U.S. Senate race, I received an email from a doctor at the University of Chicago Medical School that said the following:

"Congratulations on your overwhelming and inspiring primary win. I was happy to vote for you, and I will tell you that I am seriously considering voting for you in the general election. I write to express my concerns that may, in the end, prevent me from supporting you."

The doctor described himself as a Christian who understood his commitments to be "totalizing." His faith led him to a strong opposition to abortion and gay marriage, although he said that his faith also led him to question the idolatry of the free market and quick resort to militarism that seemed to characterize much of the Republican agenda.

But the reason the doctor was considering not voting for me was not simply my position on abortion. Rather, he had read an entry that my campaign had posted on my website, which suggested that I would fight "right-wing ideologues who want to take away a woman's right to choose." The doctor went on to write:

so he changes his web site :lol


"I sense that you have a strong sense of justice...and I also sense that you are a fair minded person with a high regard for reason...Whatever your convictions, if you truly believe that those who oppose abortion are all ideologues driven by perverse desires to inflict suffering on women, then you, in my judgment, are not fair-minded....You know that we enter times that are fraught with possibilities for good and for harm, times when we are struggling to make sense of a common polity in the context of plurality, when we are unsure of what grounds we have for making any claims that involve others...I do not ask at this point that you oppose abortion, only that you speak about this issue in fair-minded words."

Fair-minded words.

So I looked at my website and found the offending words. In fairness to them, my staff had written them using standard Democratic boilerplate language to summarize my pro-choice position during the Democratic primary, at a time when some of my opponents were questioning my commitment to protect Roe v. Wade.

Re-reading the doctor's letter, though, I felt a pang of shame. It is people like him who are looking for a deeper, fuller conversation about religion in this country. They may not change their positions, but they are willing to listen and learn from those who are willing to speak in fair-minded words. Those who know of the central and awesome place that God holds in the lives of so many, and who refuse to treat faith as simply another political issue with which to score points.

So I wrote back to the doctor, and I thanked him for his advice. The next day, I circulated the email to my staff and changed the language on my website to state in clear but simple terms my pro-choice position. And that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own - a prayer that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had extended to me.

And that night, before I went to bed I said a prayer of my own. It's a prayer I think I share with a lot of Americans. A hope that we can live with one another in a way that reconciles the beliefs of each with the good of all. It's a prayer worth praying, and a conversation worth having in this country in the months and years to come. Thank you.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/the_connection_between_faith_p.html
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and they call Bill Clinton "Slick"

ChumpDumper
03-02-2007, 05:52 AM
Too many words.

BIG IRISH
03-02-2007, 06:55 AM
Too many words.

More than three is too long for your attention span.

How is those reading classes with Yoni going :lol

George Gervin's Afro
03-02-2007, 08:10 AM
When someone can define what a good Christian is get back to me. In my opinion a devout christian doesn't start unecessary wars but that's just me. So please save the christian litmus test. God is my judge not some right winger who thinks they have christianity cornered. I am a christian and have many flaws and shortcomings but I don't need anyone telling me whether I love God enough or not.

Secondly I get the impression from the article that Big Irish exposed that a politician actually panders, Earth shattering! Sort of like pandering to the holy rollers fro the GOP every year. You remember in 2000, 02, 04 it was bad time for gay people and flag burners worse yet for gay flag burners.

Extra Stout
03-02-2007, 09:20 AM
Obama is too liberal for my tastes, but if he can change the anti-religious culture of the American left, he'll have done America a great service even if he never becomes President.

George Gervin's Afro
03-02-2007, 09:24 AM
Obama is too liberal for my tastes, but if he can change the anti-religious culture of the American left, he'll have done America a great service even if he never becomes President.


I don't think many Democrats worry about a candidate who is strong in his or her faith. What I do think they have a problem with is when these folks start to legislate on their own personal faith as opposed to their constituent's (sp?) interests. You don't legislate morality.

Extra Stout
03-02-2007, 09:59 AM
I don't think many Democrats worry about a candidate who is strong in his or her faith. What I do think they have a problem with is when these folks start to legislate on their own personal faith as opposed to their constituent's (sp?) interests. You don't legislate morality.
Your reply is ambiguous in the context of Democratic boilerplate. Sometimes what you said just means that people shouldn't legislate as if this were a theocracy. Sometimes it means that people should never let their faith inform their values as policymakers.

Which do you mean?

George Gervin's Afro
03-02-2007, 10:20 AM
Your reply is ambiguous in the context of Democratic boilerplate. Sometimes what you said just means that people shouldn't legislate as if this were a theocracy. Sometimes it means that people should never let their faith inform their values as policymakers.

Which do you mean?


Democrat boiler plate? I assume you mean talking points. Let me know where I can find these because I hear from all the righties that they exist.


Sometimes what you said just means that people shouldn't legislate as if this were a theocracy.

Because I said that most democrats don't mind a person who is strong in their faith? Where does a theocracy play into this?


Sometimes it means that people should never let their faith inform their values as policymakers

Faith is a personal issue. Not a legislative one. The govt shouldn't be in the 'faith' business. So to clarify with you a person of strong faith can serve as long as they don't push that strong faith on any one else. Not one party or candidate has cornered the 'faith' issue.

Spurminator
03-02-2007, 10:27 AM
Was this supposed to be an anti-Obama post?

Spurminator
03-02-2007, 10:37 AM
More than three is too long for your attention span.

How is those reading classes with Yoni going :lol


Did YOU read the entire thing? I'm confused about your reasoning for picking out the certain pieces you highlighted.

Just what is it about the overall theme of the speech you disagree with?

ThomasGranger
03-02-2007, 10:42 AM
Wow, the Obama haters are really reaching.

All this attention he is getting from conservatives suggests they are getting nervous about the prospect of trying to beat him in a general election, especially considering the weaknesses of the GOP front runners and the ass kicking the GOP got in November.

If articles like this are supposed to make Obama seem less credible, I like his chances.

George Gervin's Afro
03-02-2007, 10:45 AM
Wow, the Obama haters are really reaching.

All this attention he is getting from conservatives suggests they are getting nervous about the prospect of trying to beat him in a general election, especially considering the weaknesses of the GOP front runners and the ass kicking the GOP got in November.

If articles like this are supposed to make Obama seem less credible, I like his chances.


Did you hear he was a 'smoker'.. :dramaquee

boutons_
03-02-2007, 11:04 AM
"anti-religious culture"

don't confuse with "pro separation of church and state"

don't confuse true religion (truly spiritually oriented) with politicized, money-grubbing, pop-psych, anti-scientific, OT-obsessed "religion"

Gerryatrics
03-02-2007, 11:20 AM
So... is he against abortion now? I tried to read the whole 5,000,000 word essay, but I don't think there was a definitive answer, which makes me wonder what he is trying to convey there.

Spurminator
03-02-2007, 11:27 AM
I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

FromWayDowntown
03-02-2007, 11:59 AM
I'll join the chorus in wondering just what is so problematic about Senator Obama's speech (curious, though, why it was initially called an "article").

It's also curious to me that Sen. Obama's statements about what Alan Keyes said about him could be viewed as relevant at all, except to the extent that such attacks informed Sen. Obama's choice to become introspective about the role his religious views play in his political decision-making.

I'm not sure yet who I'll support in 2008, but I can't say that I'm swayed away from Senator Obama by this speech.

clambake
03-02-2007, 12:02 PM
Thanks for the speech, but something has escaped your attention. He made it crystal clear, the connection between repubs in power and religion.

"Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith"!!!!!!!

whottt
03-02-2007, 12:06 PM
I'm going to have to see something more from Obama other than the fact that's he's black. I don't share the compulsion to see a black man elected president for no other reason than...he's black.

This guy pretty much has no political track record to speak of, 2 years? And no one has a clue exactly about his past.

Whether you like him or not...it's completely foolish to consider him a legitimate contender at this point. Obama is little more than a media construct...

And he is going to get smeared in this election.


I question the political intelligence of anyone that thinks he has a chance...

He's got next to nothing working in his favor...other than he's black. And that's offset by the traditional black leaders being lukewarm towards him(IE, they support him, but only because he's black)

To me he comes off as a dyed in the wool politician...much like Kerry or W...which in my mind, combined with virtually no political history, makes him a weak candidate in this election with so many previously established candidates with viable records...

He won't get elected...

clambake
03-02-2007, 12:12 PM
I agree with Whott, to a certain extent. However, Bush has set the bar so low that anyone could crawl over it. Does anyone think that his attempt to narrow the gap of opposition is disengenuous?

boutons_
03-02-2007, 12:20 PM
whott sucks off ignorant, inexperienced, tongue-tied, uneducated, untravelled stooge dubya but is very picky about anybody else? "fair and balanced", indeed.

whottt
03-02-2007, 12:35 PM
whott sucks off ignorant, inexperienced, tongue-tied, uneducated, untravelled stooge dubya but is very picky about anybody else? "fair and balanced", indeed.




W > Kerry

Pro American > Pro UN

A moron with conviction > a traitorous moron without it


I am extremely picky...you guys gave me a choice of a lose the war traitor or W...

Wasn't a hard choice for me to make...

The funniest thing is that you think I'm the stupid one...and all the ones that all of a sudden voted for W, who didn't in 2000, were stupid...

No fool....the stupidity was all on your part. It took work to lose the last election....

Don't say you weren't told either...in advance.



I wonder if Michael Moore is going to get the seat of honor at the DNC again....


You idiots couldn't have gotten David Duke elected leader of the KKK in 04.



Better choices this time...and W wouldn't stand a chance of getting elected in this field of candidates.

ThomasGranger
03-02-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm going to have to see something more from Obama other than the fact that's he's black.

I suspect all you see is a black politician. Sounds myopic to me.


Whether you like him or not...it's completely foolish to consider him a legitimate contender at this point. Obama is little more than a media construct... Granted, there is a lot of media hype right now, but in a time when the electorate isn't very informed about the issues anyway, I don't think that works against him. Besides, his position on the issues will be get more attention as the election nears.


And he is going to get smeared in this election. No doubt, the Fox smear machine is already working on it. How he responds will be the true test, and so far he has come out OK.



I question the political intelligence of anyone that thinks he has a chance... I question the intelligence of anybody who reduces everything to simple dichotomies.


He's got next to nothing working in his favor...other than he's black. And that's offset by the traditional black leaders being lukewarm towards him(IE, they support him, but only because he's black) You forgot to mention "clean" and "articulate." Blacks have been cool to him, but lately they have been moving towards him (and away from Hillary). Is that enough to get him to the WH? Who knows, but he does seem to be gaining ground.


To me he comes off as a dyed in the wool politician...much like Kerry or W...which in my mind, combined with virtually no political history, makes him a weak candidate in this election with so many previously established candidates with viable records...

Who do you see beating him if he gets out of the primaries? Like I said before, it's a weak field and lots of voters are pretty sour with the status quo i.e. established Washington insiders.


He won't get elected...

It's a long way till November. Republicans can write him off at their own peril.

boutons_
03-02-2007, 01:54 PM
I'll take Gore and Kerry and their probably-serious-about-competent-gvmt Exec plus 3100+ alive US military every time (and I think they both suck as politicians) over dubya + dickhead and 3000+ dead US military, and 20K+ injured and wasted in Iraq.

Absolutely a no-brainer to refuse brainless, reckless dubya.

Extra Stout
03-02-2007, 01:56 PM
Democrat boiler plate? I assume you mean talking points. Let me know where I can find these because I hear from all the righties that they exist.



Because I said that most democrats don't mind a person who is strong in their faith? Where does a theocracy play into this?



Faith is a personal issue. Not a legislative one. The govt shouldn't be in the 'faith' business. So to clarify with you a person of strong faith can serve as long as they don't push that strong faith on any one else. Not one party or candidate has cornered the 'faith' issue.
I still can't decide whether or not I agree with you. We're not connecting.

Let me offer up an example, and you pick the one the most closely fits your views.

A candidate for an office argues that he believes in using public money to help the poor because he is a Christian and he follows the teaching of Jesus. Your response to that would be:

A) You are uncomfortable with his saying that because his views are driven by faith.
B) It's OK to invoke faith, since there are secular reasons for having that position as well.
C) You don't care whether his motivation is religious or secular, as long as his views agree with yours.
D) You affirm his invocation of faith as the foundation of his policy priorities.

Drive Like Jehu
03-02-2007, 02:11 PM
I
No doubt, the Fox smear machine is already working on it. How he responds will be the true test, and so far he has come out OK.

Hillary's camp will add more smear to Obama then Fox News.

whottt
03-02-2007, 02:58 PM
I suspect all you see is a black politician. Sounds myopic to me.


That's all I see...

Oh wait...a black politician, media darling, who just came on the scene 2 years ago, with a muslim name, who may have been raised in a Madrassas.

That's what I see about him...

Shit...when do I vote?

My white guilt is kicking my ass.

Next I say we open the borders...I mean we came here illegally, so why shouldn't others?

Well, aside from the fact of...and how'd that turn out for them? I guess not much.

Oh and that picure of him in the Ocean that was taken from the Kennedy school of Schmaltz.

I can't tell you a single stance of his other than he largely has distanced himself from the traditional black leadership(a plus in my book).

Why is that a plus?

I will never vote for anyone I think is going to represent a speciffic ethnicity or race or gender at the direct expense of another....and if I do, it's going to be one that represents my race, ethnicity and gender.

Now that's a plus Obama has that Jackson and Sharpton don't...

But it is in no way comparable to the track record and long term recognition of McClain, Clinton, Guilianni, Clark and even Rice .

It's simply not...he's a black politician, who does good photo opps on the beach, with an Islamic sounding name and background who rode the black vote to office 2 years ago.

That's all he is to me....

Blame the media. Pull the race card...whatever.

It's the political reality he faces.

It's his job to get his message out....and in this case, any publicity is not good publicity...the media is his worst enemy.





Granted, there is a lot of media hype right now, but in a time when the electorate isn't very informed about the issues anyway, I don't think that works against him. Besides, his position on the issues will be get more attention as the election nears.


You can get mad and call people stupid all you want...

But here are the facts...

He's black, that's a negative.
He has a muslim/islamic sounding name...that's a negative.
He's new...that's a negative.

He will not get elected...kill the messenger if you like. But it's reality.


It's his job to cross barriers of trust and communication...not mine, and the excessive media coverage over superficial issues is hurting him.



No doubt, the Fox smear machine is already working on it. How he responds will be the true test, and so far he has come out OK.

Oh yeah...the Republicans are the ones that invented smear...

Jeezus...it's been a 8 year smear fest on W...



I question the intelligence of anybody who reduces everything to simple dichotomies.

Question it all you want...I am just laying reality out there for you.

Want to put some money on whether or not a dude named Barrack Hussein Obama raised in a Madrassas is going to be the next President of the US of A?

A county that just gave conservative redneck W 50+ million votes in the last election?


Go ahead...question my intelligence, just make sure you show up on election night to own up.







You forgot to mention "clean" and "articulate." Blacks have been cool to him, but lately they have been moving towards him (and away from Hillary). Is that enough to get him to the WH? Who knows, but he does seem to be gaining ground.

He's no more articulate than anyone else in this election....maybe Clark.




Who do you see beating him if he gets out of the primaries? Like I said before, it's a weak field and lots of voters are pretty sour with the status quo i.e. established Washington insiders.

It's not a weak field...it's the strongest field since the 1980 election. It's one of the strongest in history.

And should he wind up with the nomination...he'll lose to whoever got the Republican nomination.




It's a long way till November. Republicans can write him off at their own peril.


I'm just going to write him off 100% right now...you wake me up when something changes.

Liberals have a severe case of beliving everyone else is as nutty as they are.

Taint true...just be ready for that rude awakening.


The 50 million that voted for W in 04 haven't had a mass change of heart and said...oh shit, those venom tongue hate filled libs that called us stupid and morons in 04 were right...

That's not what is happening...people are just pissed we haven't won the war yet...that's not enough to get an unknown contoversial black politician with a muslim surname who is running in the losing party from the last election, elected President.



And you are a fucking fool if you think it is.

Reality.

xrayzebra
03-02-2007, 03:15 PM
OMG, did you hear. Obama's Mom's ancestor's owned slaves......

What must this mean??????

Yeah, I know, dumb isn't it. But it is the vogue. But ever since
Al Sharpton's "revelation" it is the "in" thing.

clambake
03-02-2007, 03:21 PM
I can't wait to find out what you pretend will be the definition of "winning the war". Don't make us wait. Give us the answer now.

xrayzebra
03-02-2007, 03:24 PM
Gee Clam, you don't know what winning means. Figures!

clambake
03-02-2007, 03:26 PM
Let's hear it ray, your definition. Or has rush not told you yet?

xrayzebra
03-02-2007, 03:27 PM
Winning is winning stupid. Like not losing. What part of that
have you not figured out?

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:33 PM
Let's hear it ray, your definition. Or has rush not told you yet?


Would you rather live here or in Iraq?


Thank you.

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:34 PM
Let's hear it ray, your definition. Or has rush not told you yet?


A 50-1 death ratio and the US military up the ass of every shithead country in the ME with full nuclear, naval and air capabilities....

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:34 PM
Oh wait I get it...

Europe doesn't like us...shit, we lost.

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:38 PM
3000 dead troops


It's a fucking war. I don't know what kind of casualtie figures you would consider as non failure...but I know that the number qualifies you as a complete idiot on the subject of war.

clambake
03-02-2007, 03:39 PM
Gee Whott, it sounds more and more like you would have admired Hitler.

Why don't you put your boots on the ground and practice what you preach?

xrayzebra
03-02-2007, 03:40 PM
Of course, don't forget, we are upgrading our "nuclear" weapons.

Wonder how Iran feels about that???? LOL Ours already work
and we are going to make them work better.........

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:47 PM
Gee Whott, it sounds more and more like you would have admired Hitler.

Admiring him is better than bending over so he can have at my virgin whole, which is your plan to make the terrorists like us...bitch.

God...you represent everything I hate about the modern white man.

Go fuck yourself.



Why don't you put your boots on the ground and practice what you preach?

Why don't you? America sucks? Leave.


I put my boots on the ground when I re-elected W...that was a big fuck you to the world, the terrorist and vile pathetic and disgusting self hating Americans with the political and historical acumen of a dung beetle turd.

A vote for W was simply a case of saying...go ahead motherfuckers...nuke us, just kiss your own ass goodbye in the process(this message was not sent to the terrorist, but to the leaders of the countries that spawn them and their curious methods of population manipulation).

It does my heart good knowing that if you get nuked...it'll be my vote that caused it...bitch. Leave if you are scared.

whottt
03-02-2007, 03:50 PM
If Obama switches parties and says the first thing he's doing if an American city gets nuked is nuking Mecca off the planet...I'll vote for him.

Swear to god.

Horry For 3!
03-02-2007, 04:00 PM
I know 2 people who are going to vote for Obama no matter what. My roommate is obsessed with him. She read his book a few months ago and was hooked. She went to hear him talk in Austin either last week or the week before.

ChumpDumper
03-02-2007, 04:04 PM
If Obama switches parties and says the first thing he's doing if an American city gets nuked is nuking Mecca off the planet...I'll vote for him.

Swear to god.Which candidate says he'll do that?

whottt
03-02-2007, 04:06 PM
Regardless of who is saying it...

Guilanni and Clark will both do it.

ChumpDumper
03-02-2007, 04:11 PM
I disagree. They'll suck royal Saudi dick like every other president as long as they can single-handedly bring down the price of oil. Plenty of other places to bomb if that's what it comes to.

whottt
03-02-2007, 04:13 PM
The Saudis are going to be the one sucking dick unless they want to be the New Capital of Shia Islam.

Clark is insanely obstinate...he's definitely not afraid of WWIII.

You must not have been paying much attention back in 01 if you think Guilianni is going to be sucking any kind of dick...think back...10 million dollar donation...

ChumpDumper
03-02-2007, 04:16 PM
The Saudis are going to be the one sucking dick unless they want to be the New Capital of Shia Islam. So of they will be sucking our dicks, why bomb them?
Clark is insanely obstinate...he's definitely not afraid of WWIII. Who?
You must not have been paying much attention back in 01 if you think Guilianni is going to be sucking any kind of dick...He'll probably suck alot of dick just to get the nomination, even though I think he doesn't have to. McCain a is already doing it.

clambake
03-02-2007, 04:28 PM
I just don't understand why you haven't become more involved. Could it be that this forum is your only ounce of courage?

clambake
03-02-2007, 04:30 PM
You must not be that confident if you are already resorting to nukes.

You must have some doubt in what Bush has been saying.

whottt
03-02-2007, 04:31 PM
I just don't understand why you haven't become more involved. Could it be that this forum is your only ounce of courage?


You are probably right...which gives me one more place of having courage than you...Harem Girl.

clambake
03-02-2007, 04:35 PM
Nukes are for pussies. I understand your attraction.

whottt
03-02-2007, 04:43 PM
You must not be that confident if you are already resorting to nukes.

You must have some doubt in what Bush has been saying.


No I'm just not an idiot about the culture of the middle east.

They don't respect a bunch of tree hugging pussies....that's what they hate about us.

They don't hate many of the pretexts of our religious right...it's the same fucking book sans the enlightenment.

What they hate...are fags, and artists, and compundable interest, and sluts who expose themselves, and religious, racial and ethnic minorities...and those pathetically out of touch lumps of shit in holly wood that epotimize American decadence to them...


In short...they hate our liberals. That's why we are evil to them. And believe me...the ease with with you are manipulated by them in no way garners their respect only scares the shit out of them.

They see the way the liberals work against this country and it makes them only more determined to supress their own. It pretty affirms to them why freedom is a bad thing.


They realize the difference, it's you that doesn't. It's you that thinks Hitler is all of a sudden going to stop being Hitler and suddenly turn into John Lennon.


That's the ones in power.


They do have liberals...in their prisons, in hiding, out of power, and under the rule of those that were willing to fight for power.

It's you that just don't get it. You can't negotiate with Hitler. Fool.

clambake
03-02-2007, 04:52 PM
So they don't have a problem with American imperialism being shoved down their throats? Their biggest problem is liberals taunting their women with sexy clothes? Tree huggers or tree huggers and trees? Doesn't surprise anyone that we created Saddam and Bin ladin. Taught them all too well.

whottt
03-02-2007, 05:18 PM
So they don't have a problem with American imperialism being shoved down their throats?


American Imperialism?

Check the emmigration rates and investment charts sometime chief, see where most of their money comes from...those motherfuckers can't get enough Western Imperialism.

No...they have a problem with us turning them into a bunch of sissified fags ruled by their women. Seriously.


That is the cultural clash...you naive douche.





Their biggest problem is liberals taunting their women with sexy clothes?

Hell yes...are you kidding me?



Tree huggers or tree huggers and trees? Doesn't surprise anyone that we created Saddam and Bin ladin. Taught them all too well.


Saddam was a socialist...blame us for Bin Ladin if you want, just know the post Israel Islamic movement was originally bankrolled by the Soviets and Bin Ladin was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

But basically...yeah, their leaders are just like our Republicans in xenophobia and general hardassedness towards foreigners and liberalism, but unlike us, their liberals have no rights, they don't have liberals getting in their fucking way...we got nukes, they got no liberals...they must have got first pick.

We'll give up our nukes when they take the liberal bullet in the ass like we have.

clambake
03-02-2007, 05:42 PM
But you sound ready to launch that nuke card. You think there would be any, oh I don't know, ramifications for that?

whottt
03-02-2007, 05:45 PM
Um...if we get nuked I am going to be all for pulling the nuke card.

Worked in the cold war. It'll work now...unless the leaders of those countries fuck up and start to believe their own sabre rattling...in which case our problem is going to be their problem. Well that's what I want..

It's called mutually assured destruction and it's the best nuclear deterrent there is. But their leaders, their politicians, their sane ones, have to know they are threatened, and to the average foot soldier death means nothing so other things must be threatened. And none of this works if they think we have a leader that can be pushed...

clambake
03-02-2007, 05:52 PM
Ok Whott. We get nuked today. By who? Who do we nuke in return? Do we pull another Iraq that had nothing to do with 9-11? Do we just throw darts at a map?

01Snake
03-02-2007, 05:55 PM
Whott in 08' :D

ThomasGranger
03-02-2007, 05:55 PM
Um...if we get nuked I am going to be all for pulling the nuke card.

Worked in the cold war. It'll work now...unless the leaders of those countries fuck up and start to believe their own sabre rattling...in which case our problem is going to be their problem. Well that's what I want..

It's called mutually assured destruction and it's the best nuclear deterrent there is. But their leaders, their politicians, their sane ones, have to know they are threatened, and to the average foot soldier death means nothing so other things must be threatened. And none of this works if they think we have a leader that can be pushed...

If we get nuked by a govt. of course we're going to send nukes back. That's a no-brainer, and I don't think anybody would dispute it. But your "President with his finger on the button" theory doesn't really work when it comes to containment. Just look at North Korea, not to mention Iran.

clambake
03-02-2007, 06:04 PM
Whott's not talking about an ICBM. He's talking about a suitcase. Who could argue retaliation if missles were in the air?

whottt
03-02-2007, 06:05 PM
Ok Whott. We get nuked today. By who? Who do we nuke in return? Do we pull another Iraq that had nothing to do with 9-11?


Look, this might be a surprise to you but this Islamic movement we face is nothing more than a Muslim social program grown out of control.

It is backed by the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Syria...possibly the Chinese and maybe still the Russians. Pakistan formerly supported it and still might...but I personally think Musharraf is just trying to fix his country.

But the fact that they have nukes makes things extremely complicated.

You have to threaten the Saudi Royal Family...albeit with tact.

You have to threaten the hypocritical leadership of Iran, the ones who don't really want to die...

And you have to threaten what means something to a man willing to kill himself for his religious convictions.

Ideally, if you threaten the power brokers they can take care of the foot soldiers themselves.

But that dude in Iran...he's more than just a Sabre Rattler...he's Jim Jones. He needs to be taken out immediately.



As for Iraq...
Saddam needed to go and there are now two countries we have access too that we didn't before. Two shitty leaders...gone.

Contrary to whateveryone says here...Iran is not happy with our military surrounding them, the Saudis are not happy about Iran becoming the major regional power.


And whether you want to believe it or not...W scared the living shit out of every person in authority in the ME. Because I don't think anyone doubts he'd be willing nuke someones ass...it works. It's how the ME leaders stay in power.

ThomasGranger
03-02-2007, 06:06 PM
Whott's not talking about an ICBM. He's talking about a suitcase. Who could argue retaliation if missles were in the air?

Got it. (I realized that was probably the case and was editing my post the same time you posted the clarification).

clambake
03-02-2007, 06:09 PM
YOu just called it a muslim social program with all those countries lumped together, then at the end you seperated the players. What gives?

whottt
03-02-2007, 06:37 PM
YOu just called it a muslim social program with all those countries lumped together, then at the end you seperated the players. What gives?


It literally is a muslim social program grown out of control...well almost out of control. The Rad Islam movement is what I am talking about.


I don't think all muslims are bad...of course not, just the ones in power in Iran, Saudi and Pakistan(not Musharraf but Pak's Mullah's)...the rest are in jail, hiding or over here already.

I separated the players because different things threaten them.

clambake
03-02-2007, 08:04 PM
Not that it wouldn't happen eventually, but our WH's ill-conceived plans have acelerated this Muslim reunion based on a common goal. The fools rushed in.

ponky
03-03-2007, 03:51 AM
But here are the facts...

He's black, that's a negative.


It would help if you let as many people, particularly black people, in on this fact. The only reason Obama's reception has been lukewarm by blacks is because whites have been so quick to embrace him and blacks are suspicious, they see Obama as possibly *whitified*


Anyway the article does nothing for me and the stuff you highlighted is irrelevant to the main theme of the article.

Extra Stout
03-03-2007, 10:30 AM
It would help if you let as many people, particularly black people, in on this fact. The only reason Obama's reception has been lukewarm by blacks is because whites have been so quick to embrace him and blacks are suspicious, they see Obama as possibly *whitified*

So let me get this straight... black people will only enthusiastically support a black candidate if he does not have widespread support among white people? How is that supposed to work?

whottt
03-03-2007, 03:07 PM
It would help if you let as many people, particularly black people, in on this fact. The only reason Obama's reception has been lukewarm by blacks is because whites have been so quick to embrace him and blacks are suspicious,


Sounds like those blacks are too caught up in skin color. Which blacks are these by the way? Or are you just speaking for, all of them?


they see Obama as possibly *whitified*


Wow...so basically they're racist.

And because white people like him, they don't trust him?

As opposed to the other 40 something Presidents of the USA?


Let me guess...

You're a liberal aren't you ponky?


Congrats on being elected the voice of the African American btw. I'm impressed with your hipness and how in touch you are with the voice of the minority.




Me personally I remember post 911 they polled African Americans on if racial profiling should be used to prevent terrorist attacks and it was like an 80% yes vote. Maybe the name has something to do with it?

gtownspur
03-04-2007, 01:43 AM
It would help if you let as many people, particularly black people, in on this fact. The only reason Obama's reception has been lukewarm by blacks is because whites have been so quick to embrace him and blacks are suspicious, they see Obama as possibly *whitified*


Anyway the article does nothing for me and the stuff you highlighted is irrelevant to the main theme of the article.


Translation: Blacks should support real black warriors like Bill Clinton who played the sax on Arsenio Hall. Word to you Motha!

Whoop whoop!! whoop! whoop!

Yeah boyeeeee!!!

Extra Stout
03-04-2007, 02:21 AM
If a black candidate isn't like Chris Rock in "Head of State," he just ain't keepin' it real.

ponky
03-04-2007, 02:30 AM
So let me get this straight... black people will only enthusiastically support a black candidate if he does not have widespread support among white people? How is that supposed to work?

no, of course not, it's a combination of things right now with regards to obama and the reception he's getting from blacks. some of the more recent polls have suggested that blacks identify more with hillary by way of her husband because they identify with bill clinton's background a lot easier than they do with obama's international background. also, it's not a surprise that many blacks and latinos balk and sometimes INITIALLY mistrust one of their own who is very educated and outspoken, that's all i meant by whitifed. i don't mean to personalize this because there are lots of studies regarding this issue, but as an example, i got teased all the time by my neighborhood kids (latinos) for taking the aim high classes with all the white kids. anyway, i never put it in such extreme terms like *only* as you have, i think you misunderstood. there are several black candidates in politics who have had the support of both blacks and whites.

Extra Stout
03-04-2007, 02:43 AM
no, of course not, it's a combination of things right now with regards to obama and the reception he's getting from blacks. some of the more recent polls have suggested that blacks identify more with hillary by way of her husband because they identify with bill clinton's background a lot easier than they do with obama's international background. also, it's not a surprise that many blacks and latinos balk and sometimes INITIALLY mistrust one of their own who is very educated and outspoken, that's all i meant by whitifed. i don't mean to personalize this because there are lots of studies regarding this issue, but as an example, i got teased all the time by my neighborhood kids (latinos) for taking the aim high classes with all the white kids. anyway, i never put it in such extreme terms like *only* as you have, i think you misunderstood. there are several black candidates in politics who have had the support of both blacks and whites.
OK, I get the international thing -- Obama has a very different background from most African-Americans.

I take the view of high achievement by minorities among themselves as "acting white" as a manifestation of cultural self-loathing -- an internalization of the racism they experience.

ponky
03-04-2007, 02:51 AM
I'm impressed with your hipness and how in touch you are with the voice of the minority.


considering i am a minority who's gone through all the *you're too good for us because you want an education and yet you're from the hood* b.s., thanks.

anyway, you should calm down and not be so reactionary and assume so much shit about liberals...just like that idiot g-townspur who assumed that when i was talking about racism i was only talking about white on *insert the minority* racism. yes, i'm liberal but i'm not going to deny that minorities aren't guilty of racism as if they live in the world of lucky charms, seeing all the colors of the rainbows as equal...because they don't. when it comes to racism, minorities don't get a free pass on ignorance just because they've been persecuted in the past. besides, my initial post was based on several recent political polls about the presidential race and minority voting patterns, so it's not really my voice.

ponky
03-04-2007, 02:54 AM
OK, I get the international thing -- Obama has a very different background from most African-Americans.

I take the view of high achievement by minorities among themselves as "acting white" as a manifestation of cultural self-loathing -- an internalization of the racism they experience.

yeah i agree. it's the same reason mexican-american kids (2-3 generation born here) balk at speaking spanish or even learning it as a second language. i wasn't trying to turn this into a liberal/conservative argument, just merely commenting on why obama hasn't been warmly received by blacks...although, that gap is closing and it's still early.

whottt
03-04-2007, 02:55 AM
considering i am a minority

You are? Not in Texas you aren't.


who's gone through all the *you're too good for us because you want an education and yet you're from the hood* b.s., thanks.






anyway, you should calm down and not be so reactionary and assume so much shit about liberals...just like that idiot g-townspur who assumed that when i was talking about racism i was only talking about white on *insert the minority* racism. yes, i'm liberal but i'm not going to deny that minorities aren't guilty of racism as if they live in the world of lucky charms, seeing all the colors of the rainbows as equal...because they don't. when it comes to racism, minorities don't get a free pass on ignorance just because they've been persecuted in the past. besides, my initial post was based on several recent political polls about the presidential race and minority voting patterns, so it's not really my voice.

Pretty well said...

Don't sweat my comments...


But don't pretend like you don't enjoy talking shit and don't do it, and just come here for intelligent discourse.

You were the #1 shittalking Mav fan during the playoffs last year. I remember when you got here...

whottt
03-04-2007, 03:00 AM
yeah i agree. it's the same reason mexican-american kids (2-3 generation born here) balk at speaking spanish or even learning it as a second language. i wasn't trying to turn this into a liberal/conservative argument, just merely commenting on why obama hasn't been warmly received by blacks...although, that gap is closing and it's still early.


You notice I listed black as both a positive and a negative...it's a positive with the media...not necessarily with the public, black or white.

But in terms of historical perspective...it's definitely a negative, and Americans don't exactly have a track record of making radical changes during tumultous times.

First black president is going to be one with a muslim surname, with a muslim background, during a war with radical islam?

It's not going to happen.

And if Obama is as smart as he is alleged to be...he knows now is not his time, all this is about is throwing his hat in the ring so he won't be the unknown next time.

He's not going to win in 08...not in this uncertain climate.

JoeChalupa
03-06-2007, 10:22 PM
It doesn't change my mind. I'm still backing Obama.