Whoever the next Spurs FA or draftee is...

[Fabbs]

Could we please have a clearly defined objective for said players role.

Beno Undies: He's the backup to TP. No wait, he isn't. It's
NVE: Thus Beno is benched. No wait, Beno is back. No he isn't, its
Jacque Vaugn. Okay at 900K this has been one the Spurs got the price right.

Fabs Oberto. He will be the 10-15 minute a game sub who will be primarily a very PT Center who can swing over to PF to spell Tim. No, he will be a starting center in spite of being unable to jump over a piece of paper. Yeah that will get us a title. No he will be a benchee. No, he will be back to starting center. Also, lets sign him for one year so we can work on Scola. No instead lets make it 3 years since Fabs can uh.....

Jackie Butler?? Millionaire NBA players who are signed in the summer should get one year plus to get in shape and learn the system. Yet we are battling Dallas etc for our playoff lives. Butler will help, right?


White: Don't even ask. Shuffle back n forth from NBDL league so he can watch Fins Horry and Bonner combine to go 1-22 in a blowout from the bench.
Yeah yeah yeah "He isn't ready". Sure, it would really hurt him to play a bit when the others were in contstant stink it up mode. Once again, his role is??

I'm not looking for 500 comments on who does or does not suck and why.
My point is clearly defined objective vs sandcastle then wave.

[Mr. Body]

None of those players is terribly good. That's the problem. Butler has only shown capabilities with a lousy Knicks team and White hasn't shown he belongs on an NBA court at all. Oberto has the mind for basketball, but the body of a garden gnome, as the saying goes, and in the case of Udrih, Pop was trying to jar him into being a competent player, which didn't really stick.

The rook coming in next year probably won't have a defined role, especially since there will be a backlog in swingman positions.

[Fabbs]

None of those players is terribly good. That's the problem. Butler has only shown capabilities with a lousy Knicks team and White hasn't shown he belongs on an NBA court at all. Oberto has the mind for basketball, but the body of a garden gnome, as the saying goes, and in the case of Udrih, Pop was trying to jar him into being a competent player, which didn't really stick.

The rook coming in next year probably won't have a defined role, especially since there will be a backlog in swingman positions.
So why did we pursue these players? And with Fabs and Fins, why the 3 year contracts? Beno, why extended?
It appears the Spurs have totally lost the touch that brought in beauties Parker and GNob. Altho motorcycle accident Euro Tall Guy, who knows what he might have been.

No more goofball experiments for the price and contract length.
Eric Williams comes in and does ball with effort and he gets benched and traded.

[Mr. Body]

We pursued them because sometimes they pan out. And maybe one will, maybe Butler will pan out, maybe White will. They're low-level risks that don't cost much. Oberto and Finley were established veterans who probably couldn't have been signed without offering three-year contracts. The Oberto move was the only questionable one here, because that money should have gone to Scola.

Eric Williams was awful. His career is done.

[Big P]

Its the players that are inconsistent. If they are not going to play well for extended periods of time, then Pop is going to shuffle them as needed. It is up to the players to clearly define their role, not management. The FO can tell a player, "your going to be the backup PG" or your going to be the primary bigman off the bench" , but it's not that easy, players have to earn their role.

[Kori Ellis]

Could we please have a clearly defined objective for said players role.

[/B]

Unless they trade for a starter quality player or a sixth man type, then that won't happen. Late bench players don't get handed a role, they have to do something to warrant it.

[Extra Stout]

Could we please have a clearly defined objective for said players role.

Beno Undies: He's the backup to TP. No wait, he isn't. It's
NVE: Thus Beno is benched. No wait, Beno is back. No he isn't, its
Jacque Vaugn. Okay at 900K this has been one the Spurs got the price right.

Fabs Oberto. He will be the 10-15 minute a game sub who will be primarily a very PT Center who can swing over to PF to spell Tim. No, he will be a starting center in spite of being unable to jump over a piece of paper. Yeah that will get us a title. No he will be a benchee. No, he will be back to starting center. Also, lets sign him for one year so we can work on Scola. No instead lets make it 3 years since Fabs can uh.....

Jackie Butler?? Millionaire NBA players who are signed in the summer should get one year plus to get in shape and learn the system. Yet we are battling Dallas etc for our playoff lives. Butler will help, right?


White: Don't even ask. Shuffle back n forth from NBDL league so he can watch Fins Horry and Bonner combine to go 1-22 in a blowout from the bench.
Yeah yeah yeah "He isn't ready". Sure, it would really hurt him to play a bit when the others were in contstant stink it up mode. Once again, his role is??

I'm not looking for 500 comments on who does or does not suck and why.
My point is clearly defined objective vs sandcastle then wave.
So you would rather the Spurs keep playing guys even while they suck, even if somebody else outplays them, just so they can have a "clearly defined objective?"


Pop sucks. My mind is made up, I'll worry about the reasons later.

[Fabbs]

Unless they trade for a starter quality player or a sixth man type, then that won't happen. Late bench players don't get handed a role, they have to do something to warrant it.
Finley did what to warrant the 1st half of the seasons minutes? He certainly was "handed" it. Fabs became and stayed the starting center by what, reason of default? To try to play the undersized Fabs big minutes at Center is a recipie for playoff failure. Whatever the mystery Scola buyout is, could it be that much more then we paid for Fabs?
Reggie Evans could have easily been signed by combining these twos salary and had plenty left over.


ExtraStout So you would rather the Spurs keep playing guys even while they suck, even if somebody else outplays them, just so they can have a "clearly defined objective?"
Twisty, its the exact opposite of what i have wanted and want.

[Mr. Body]

Fabbs - I'm in total agreement about Oberto. That was a minor screwup by the Spurs - made minor by the surprise that Oberto can and has actually contributed this season. That money should have been earmarked for Scola. Whatever - Scola will never be a Spur at this point, no big deal.

[T Park]

the moey oberto got, is less than what scola got, and he had a 14 million dollar buyout.

how the fuck exactly should that money have been "earmarked"

[Mr. Body]

Scola is worth more than Oberto, but spending the Oberto cash made it much less possible to give Scola what he's asking for.

[T Park]

scola should get a 2 year, manu type deal.

he hasn't done anything to prove otherwise hes worth more money than what Ginobili was in 02.

[Mr. Body]

I should macro these things.

... then don't expect him in a Spurs uniform.

etc.

[ChumpDumper]

Let's get Marcus Haislip into summer league.

[T Park]

Haislip > Duncan according to Body more than likely.

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, Haislip is American.

[T Park]

ah my bad

then Javtokas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else more than likely

[AFBlue]

White was added in the hope that he could develop into a defensive stopper...a la Bruce Bowen. He is an off-the-charts athlete, with the ability to shut down opposing 2/3.

Butler was a 21yr old F/C with nice post moves and an aggressive streak. His role right now is to get in playing shape and develop his skills under the basket. His role in the future is to be the second low-post option on this team.

As far as Udrih is concerned, Pop and crew have given him opportunities to secure the backup job and he has failed to follow through. If he lived up to his potential, his role would be as the primary backup to TP.


Bottom Line: These players are young and the Spurs have to concentrate on winning a championship, not cultivating for the future. That's what the off-season is for. The future of Butler and White will be decided during the summer leagues and depend on who leaves/is brought in this off-season.

[mardigan]

Dudley or Thornton, either would be great pick ups

[Mr. Body]

Dudley is too slow to really help. He's quite smart, but we need somebody with athletic ability. I think he'll drop to the 2nd round.

[mardigan]

Dudley is too slow to really help. He's quite smart, but we need somebody with athletic ability. I think he'll drop to the 2nd round.
The mocks I have seen have him in the late 20s, but he could slip. He is just such a smart player. I also saw in some mocks that the Spurs would end up with Fazekas, or have a shot at Brendan Rush. What do you think of those players, I really like Fazekas, and I think Rush could be our future 3

[Mr. Body]

It kills me to see smart players like Dudley look like they lack the physical characteristics of a very good NBA player. A guy that smart + athleticism = potential multi All-Star.

I'd be very happy to see Brandon Rush drop to our pick. Not sure he'd stay in the draft if he'd drop that far; maybe so. He's talented and athletic and still has room to grow. He could be a nice jolt off the bench; not sure he's a long-term SF prospect, though.

Fazekas I'm not so enamored of. He is skilled but doesn't fit a need for the Spurs, who need athletic perimeter players. Finding decently talented big men to play next to Duncan isn't a big problem, but for some reason finding that Bowen replacement is.

[mardigan]

I also think Morris Almond from Rice could be a good fit, he isnt the most athletic guy in the world, but can score from anywhere, and he is 6-6, 6-7 ish. I also like the 6-9 kid from Fresno State McGuire. 6-9 with good ballhandling skills and he can block shots and play defense. His shot is pretty inconsitent, but I think the Spurs shooting coach could fix that. I think he will probably fall into the second, but then again, he might stay in school his senior year to try and raise his stock

[Mr. Body]

McGuire I think stays.

Almond is interesting, as is Nick Young. I think those guys project as SGs, but that's a position we'll need.

[AFBlue]

It kills me to see smart players like Dudley look like they lack the physical characteristics of a very good NBA player. A guy that smart + athleticism = potential multi All-Star.

I'd be very happy to see Brandon Rush drop to our pick. Not sure he'd stay in the draft if he'd drop that far; maybe so. He's talented and athletic and still has room to grow. He could be a nice jolt off the bench; not sure he's a long-term SF prospect, though.

Fazekas I'm not so enamored of. He is skilled but doesn't fit a need for the Spurs, who need athletic perimeter players. Finding decently talented big men to play next to Duncan isn't a big problem, but for some reason finding that Bowen replacement is.

James White = Potential Bowen Replacement

And I don't get your statement about Fazekas. If the Spurs have found a decently talented big man to play next to Duncan where is he? You think Oberto, Elson, or Bonner are "that guy"?

Fazekas is a better rebounder than Bonner and has the ability to play inside as well as outside. I think you are right in that there are a number of talented PF prospects in this draft, but I just like Fazekas' game...

[Mr. Body]

I mean that the big guy next to Duncan is a bit less vital a need at this point than a nice SF. But I've changed my thoughts - if we can't trade up and Fazekas is the best available, then by all means...

[mardigan]

Yea, I like Fazekas rebounding and offensive ability a lot. He isnt the best defender right now, but with a little work and weight training, he could be solid next to Tim

[Extra Stout]

Scola is worth more than Oberto, but spending the Oberto cash made it much less possible to give Scola what he's asking for.
That is revisionist history. The Spurs negotiated with Scola, but something get crosswise about the buyout. I don't know if the Spurs just didn't grasp how big the buyout was, or if Scola wasn't up front with him. In any event, when it became clear the buyout was $14 million, that was a huge surprise which of course the Spurs had not planned for.

Signing Oberto was the backup plan. Of course, the Spurs won't say that, because that's akin to telling him, "We didn't really want you; we had to settle for you."

[Mr. Body]

The buyout was never $14 million. That is pretty much impossible, although I'll allow that Tau simply wouldn't let him go at all. In all likelihood that was Tau's starting bid in negotiations and the Spurs F.O. and the San Antonio media reported it as the hard and cold facts, since the Spurs don't negotiate at such high levels. They probably said, "Oberto will do just as well, and be cheaper," and signed him instead. When Scola finally plays his first games in the NBA, we'll see if they were correct, but that $14 million figure is nonsensical.

Nonsense or not, I don't fully mean the Spurs would have signed Scola that summer. But by signing Oberto instead, that took away $2.5 million (whatever it is) for two more years they could have 'earmarked' for Scola. Having Oberto simply meant that Scola really wasn't coming.

[T Park]

The buyout was never $14 million.
:lmao

of course it wasn't.

Thats only been reported about 50 billion times here :lmao

[Mr. Body]

Tell Extra Stout that (who, by the way, I respect 100x more than you).

[T Park]

(who, by the way, I respect 100x more than you).

Oh my.

Whatever shall I do. :dramaquee

[exstatic]

I know you will all find this hard to believe, but a player making in the $2-3M range isn't making much by NBA standards, and all of: Finley, Fabs, Butler fall into that range. That salary range falls between a little under to a little over half of the average salary. None of the players was signed longer than 3 years either.

[Fabbs]

^^ true X, but that median is arrived at by ridiculously overpriced salaries, ie Findawg at 17 mil, CWebber 18 , Brian Grant 13 mil last year.

So while 2-3 mil may be low ave, when you combine a couple of those you get 4-6 mil to shop and up the ante. I find it hard to believe Oberto would not have gone for a one or two year contract, but maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't.

If Beno is a blowout after this year (i'm not saying he is) but if he is, that was a total waste of years, money, and grind on Tony Parker whom Pop likes to think is indestructible and marches him out there continually.

Butler being for next year? Okay, might pan out. Sure seems like a wasted roster spot since we are battling for a title NOW.

Sure seems like Reggie Evans would have been a much better spent 4 mil per.

3 years is an eternity when the Duncan window is now.

[AFBlue]

^^ true X, but that median is arrived at by ridiculously overpriced salaries, ie Findawg at 17 mil, CWebber 18 , Brian Grant 13 mil last year.

So while 2-3 mil may be low ave, when you combine a couple of those you get 4-6 mil to shop and up the ante. I find it hard to believe Oberto would not have gone for a one or two year contract, but maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't.

If Beno is a blowout after this year (i'm not saying he is) but if he is, that was a total waste of years, money, and grind on Tony Parker whom Pop likes to think is indestructible and marches him out there continually.

Butler being for next year? Okay, might pan out. Sure seems like a wasted roster spot since we are battling for a title NOW.

Sure seems like Reggie Evans would have been a much better spent 4 mil per.

3 years is an eternity when the Duncan window is now.

The median is not skewed higher by "outliers", because there are plenty of superstars still making rookie-level wages. The point is that market value for players is different for each team, each position, and varies each year.

Given what Jackie Butler showed in the previous season combined with his youth, I think wagering a 3yr contract for less than $3M per season was an incredible deal...in fact I'm suprised people are ridiculing it.

You would have rather spent $4M per year on an older player with no upside and one speciality (rebounding), who would have likely also signed for at least 3 years (he signed for 4 with Denver)? After the way I saw Evans miss at least 5 "chip shots" 2ft from the basket the last time the Spurs played them...I'd take Butler's inexperience and the possibility of him becoming a good player over the next two years over the Evans deal in a heartbeat.

About Beno, he makes next to nothing.

These guys know their role and it's to watch/learn. Their time with come...

[Fabbs]

The median is not skewed higher by "outliers", because there are plenty of superstars still making rookie-level wages. The point is that market value for players is different for each team, each position, and varies each year.

All ears. Go ahead and name all the superstars at rookie level wages.
Here is a list of the top 30 paid players. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
From #1 at 21 mil to #30 who is at 12.5 mil. You're telling me that doesn't affect the "average'? Jalen Rose at 16 mil, incidentally.

Yes Butler could pan out. Now tell me Butler and Obertos playoff contributions last season and this. Yes i think a rebound only Reggie Evans would outdo both of them. Clearly defined role, not guessing game or wishful thinking.

If Butler pans out, great. Does nothing for last year and this. Strange time to start a building project. If he shocks and steps up this years playoffs that will be fine.

[Fabbs]

Nonsense or not, I don't fully mean the Spurs would have signed Scola that summer. But by signing Oberto instead, that took away $2.5 million (whatever it is) for two more years they could have 'earmarked' for Scola. Having Oberto simply meant that Scola really wasn't coming.

Exactly. That is cash that could have been either offered to Tau or put elsewhere. While Tau was asking 14 mil, that number is down by now. Plus just because they are asking 14 does not mean they won't take less.

The Spurs scout who screwed up and did not check Scolas contract buyout was fired by the Spurs.

[ArgSpursFan]

I should macro these things.

... then don't expect him in a Spurs uniform.

etc.
I wouldn´t be that sure about that.
let´s wait and see.

[AFBlue]

All ears. Go ahead and name all the superstars at rookie level wages.
Here is a list of the top 30 paid players. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
From #1 at 21 mil to #30 who is at 12.5 mil. You're telling me that doesn't affect the "average'? Jalen Rose at 16 mil, incidentally.

Yes Butler could pan out. Now tell me Butler and Obertos playoff contributions last season and this. Yes i think a rebound only Reggie Evans would outdo both of them. Clearly defined role, not guessing game or wishful thinking.

If Butler pans out, great. Does nothing for last year and this. Strange time to start a building project. If he shocks and steps up this years playoffs that will be fine.

Off the top of my head (no research)....

Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson.

You also keep bringing up Oberto and Butler together. It should be noted that the Oberto signing had nothing to do with not signing Reggie Evans this past off-season, because he was signed the previous year w/ MLE money. The person you should be comparing Evans' production to is his former Nugget teammate who was signed this past off-season along with Butler....Elson. Elson may not be as good a rebounder, but he is a much better offensive player and fits the need for an athletic shot-blocker.

Elson + Butler now may not be equal to Evans right now (though it's close), but I think Elson + Butler in the future could be MUCH better than Evans.

Oberto rode the pine last year because the Spurs had better options, and if some of those other players pan out, he'll ride the pine again next year....Oberto was brought in as a warm body.

[Kori Ellis]

I would argue that Elson + Butler now is at least equal to Evans

How could you make that argument? I could see arguing for the future, but now?

Butler doesn't play, so he's a non factor.

Elson
PPG 5.1
RPG 4.9
APG .9
SPG .39
BPG .82
FG% .534
FT% .768
3P% .000
MPG 18.8

Evans
PPG 5.5
RPG 7.6
APG .7
SPG .73
BPG .25
FG% .540
FT% .494
3P% .000
MPG 18.6

I guess you could argue that Elson can out-tall Evans .. and his FT% is much better. But averaging 2.7 rebounds more in the same minutes is a big plus for Reggie.

[AFBlue]

How could you make that argument? I could see arguing for the future, but now?

Butler doesn't play, so he's a non factor.

Elson
PPG 5.1
RPG 4.9
APG .9
SPG .39
BPG .82
FG% .534
FT% .768
3P% .000
MPG 18.8

Evans
PPG 5.5
RPG 7.6
APG .7
SPG .73
BPG .25
FG% .540
FT% .494
3P% .000
MPG 18.6

I guess you could argue that Elson can out-tall Evans, but that's about it.

Fair enough argument, though I wouldn't say that Evans' production dwarfs Elson's in any way. Worse rebounding and steals, better blocking and free throw %, similar assits and FG%.

I'll edit it though....

[Kori Ellis]

Fair enough argument, though I wouldn't say that Evans' production dwarfs Elson's in any way. Worse rebounding and steals, better blocking and free throw %, similar assits and FG%.

I'll edit it though....

You don't need to edit :) I just think Evans' rebounding would be great. The Spurs have gotten beat up on the boards so much in the past.

Hopefully Elson can somehow start to be more consistent on the glass.

[AFBlue]

You don't need to edit :) I just think Evans' rebounding would be great. The Spurs have gotten beat up on the boards so much in the past.

Hopefully Elson can somehow start to be more consistent on the glass.

Hopefully Elson can start to be more consistent period. One night he's good enough to stay on the court for 35 minutes and pick up 13/8 (not great, but passable #'s), then a few nights later he plays an ineffective 15 minutes with 3/3. The Spurs need this guy to be more consistent down the stretch because he has the right blend of length and athleticism to the Spurs need. And he might not be an "elite" rebounder like Evans, but he's serviceable.

Another reason the Spurs get outrebounded is that Finley is probably the worst Small Ball 4 in the league...

[T Park]

Elson is a strange duck, thats for sure.

[AFBlue]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA03092006.spursmailbag.34f93ffe.html

As much as I’ve panned this signing, it was hardly a cap-crippling deal. He’s due to make a little more than $2 million next season and then the Spurs don’t have to pick up his third-year option. That’s not a huge price to pay for a young big man with good hands.

I saw this in the Ludden Article about Butler and it sort of suprised me. Is the fact that the third year of his contract is voidable a well known fact? I, for one, had no idea. Is this correct?

[Kori Ellis]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA03092006.spursmailbag.34f93ffe.html


I saw this in the Ludden Article and it sort of suprised me. Is the fact that the third year of his contract is voidable a well known fact? I, for one, had no idea. Is this correct?

Third year, team option.

[AFBlue]

Third year, team option.

Wow, well that's good for the Spurs' cap situation if this guy doesn't pan out next year.

[Bruno]

Evans isn't better than Elson this year and I rather have Elson than Evans with Spurs.

If Evans is the 5th bigman behind player like Kleiza or Najera on Denver rotation, there is a reason.

[Kori Ellis]

Evans isn't better than Elson this year.

If Evans is the 5th bigman behind player like Kleiza or Najera on Denver rotation, there is a reason.

Probably because he doesn't have a great attitude (which is nothing new).

But he can still rebound the ball.

[timvp]

Evans isn't better than Elson this year and I rather have Elson than Evans with Spurs.

If Evans is the 5th bigman behind player like Kleiza or Najera on Denver rotation, there is a reason.

:lol

If Elson was on Denver, he'd never play. He'd be their 12th man ... again.

[T Park]

Elson you mean.

But if Evan's attitude is bad in Denver, and say it was bad here, what good would that do to the damn team?

[timvp]

Reggie Evans
18.6 Minutes
5.5 Points
7.6 Rebounds
.540 Field Goal Percentage

Francisco Elson
18.8 Minutes
5.1 Points
4.9 Rebounds
.534 Field Goal Percentage

So Elson plays more minutes but isn't even close to matching Evans production.

[Bruno]

Probably because he doesn't have a great attitude (which is nothing new).

But he can still rebound the ball.

From what I've read it's more than he hurts Nuggets offense and he is an average defender at best.

[Bruno]

Reggie Evans
18.6 Minutes
5.5 Points
7.6 Rebounds
.540 Field Goal Percentage

Francisco Elson
18.8 Minutes
5.1 Points
4.9 Rebounds
.534 Field Goal Percentage

Evans is a decent fantasy league player (like Nazr).

[Bruno]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5324050

By Chris Dempsey
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 02/28/2007 07:54:39 PM MST

Chris - I've noticed that Reggie Evans (a rebounding monster) ends up splitting minutes with Eduardo Najera (a very poor man's Ryan Bowen), while Najera gets most of the crunch-time minutes at the end of games. Does George Karl feel Evans is too much of an offensive liability?
-- Andrew, Los Angeles

Andrew - You said it. That's pretty much it. Plus, Evans as a defender is average. Plus, Evans struggles at the free-throw line, making him an easy target for intentional fouls before the two-minute mark in the fourth period.

Evans plays with such high energy, but has a very incomplete offensive post game, which he is working on improving. He has experienced a drop in minutes over the past two or three weeks as a result of Karl's concern that having Evans on the court with the game on the line isn't the best move for the team. Even though he is a significant player on the boards, his minutes will increase as the other parts of his game improve.

[timvp]

But if Evan's attitude is bad in Denver, and say it was bad here, what good would that do to the damn team?

I haven't heard anything about Evans have a bad attitude this season. If anything, the Nuggets have been impressed by his improvement on defense.

Evans is just caught in a numbers game in Denver. Even with that, he's able to carve out a role as large as the Spurs' starting center. Put him on a team without bigmen with inflated contracts (Camby, Nene and Najera all make more money than he does), and Evans would really blossom.

[timvp]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5324050

By Chris Dempsey
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 02/28/2007 07:54:39 PM MST

Chris - I've noticed that Reggie Evans (a rebounding monster) ends up splitting minutes with Eduardo Najera (a very poor man's Ryan Bowen), while Najera gets most of the crunch-time minutes at the end of games. Does George Karl feel Evans is too much of an offensive liability?
-- Andrew, Los Angeles

Andrew - You said it. That's pretty much it. Plus, Evans as a defender is average. Plus, Evans struggles at the free-throw line, making him an easy target for intentional fouls before the two-minute mark in the fourth period.

Evans plays with such high energy, but has a very incomplete offensive post game, which he is working on improving. He has experienced a drop in minutes over the past two or three weeks as a result of Karl's concern that having Evans on the court with the game on the line isn't the best move for the team. Even though he is a significant player on the boards, his minutes will increase as the other parts of his game improve.

Nice. Maybe you can quote the Ludden mailbag next to prop Elson. :lol

[T Park]

Heres the thing.

Spurs had a choice between Elson and Evans, and both made close to the same amount of money.

The Spurs went with elson.

Other than running and what not, you don't think they have some info on both guys, that went into it?

[T Park]

I haven't heard anything about Evans have a bad attitude this season.

Kori seems to believe that :lol

[Kori Ellis]

I haven't heard anything about Evans have a bad attitude this season. .

Neither have I - that's why I said probably. He had a crappy attitude in the past.

[timvp]

From what I've read it's more than he hurts Nuggets offense and he is an average defender at best.

Evans averages more points and shoots for a higher percentage than any big on the Spurs outside of Duncan. Defensively, the Nuggets give up 6.8 less points per 100 possession with Evans on the court. The Spurs give up the same amount of points with Elson on the court or on the bench.

[Kori Ellis]

Heres the thing.

Spurs had a choice between Elson and Evans, and both made close to the same amount of money.The Spurs went with elson.

Other than running and what not, you don't think they have some info on both guys, that went into it?

Reggie Evans - five years/$23M or so
Francisco Elson - two years/$6M

Not close.

[T Park]

Neither have I - that's why I said probably. He had a crappy attitude in the past.



Damn't :lol

[T Park]

5 years 23 what is that,

4 something

elson is 3.

A million more.

Not ALOT in basketball terms. IMO at least.

[Kori Ellis]

5 years 23 what is that,

4 something

elson is 3.

A million more.

Not ALOT in basketball terms. IMO at least.

PLEASE, it's not about per year and you know it. The Spurs weren't going to hand anyone a five year deal this summer.

[timvp]

PLEASE, it's not about per year and you know it. The Spurs weren't going to hand anyone a five year deal this summer.

True. But you can't find quality offering around one or two year contracts. Evans makes $900,000 more this season, so if the Spurs could have sprung for the years, they could have gone from a weak rebounding team to a powerful rebounding team.

The 2008 Plan sucks.

[T Park]

I agree. Im not disputing that.

Im just saying the million PER.

Thats all :depressed

[Bruno]

Evans averages more points and shoots for a higher percentage than any big on the Spurs outside of Duncan.

if you want to see how Evans hurt an offense only by looking at his stats, check his turnovers and his FT%.



Defensively, the Nuggets give up 6.8 less points per 100 possession with Evans on the court. The Spurs give up the same amount of points with Elson on the court or on the bench.

Points per 100 possession have shown that Barry was a better defender than Bowen last year. :spin

Anyway, you know BB better than me but I trust more Karl's evaluation on Evans than yours. If Karl bench him there is a reason and Nuggets' writer gave it.

[T Park]

Wow bruno....

[timvp]

if you want to see how Evans hurt an offense only by looking at his stats, check his turnovers and his FT%.

The Spurs have only won championships the years that their FT% was horrendous.



If Karl bench him there is a reason and Nuggets' writer gave it.

Evans didn't really get benched because he was never actually penciled in as the starter. Like I said, the Nuggets have four bigmen who make more money (including KMart), so Evans isn't going to jump over too many of them. They gave Nene $60M, they pretty much have to start him.

It's a lot like when the Nuggets signed Earl Watson even though they had Andre Miller and Earl Boykins. They didn't do it because they needed Watson, they did it because Watson at the amount of money they got him for was a good trade asset.

I suspect the same reasoning was used for Evans. They didn't specifically need him, especially after re-signing Nene for monster bucks, but it made more sense to lock him up at a reasonable contract and try to trade him later rather than just letting him walk.

[T Park]

If Evans cant jump over Kmart this year, then I dont know what the fuck he needs.

[Bruno]

Evans case and Watson aren't the same.

Watson was the 3rd PG behind Miller and Boykins. Evans is behind Najera and Kleiza in the rotation. It's logic that he can't outplay Camby and Nene but there are 30mpg available as backup PF/C.

And trading Evans isn't that easy : Denver has tried to trade Evans or Nene in the AI trade without success.

I suspect that Evans is more in the Nazr case. Denver was quite impressed by his energy when he came in the middle of the season but are now disapointed about his lack of progress due to his poor feeling for the game.

[ChumpDumper]

Avery would love to be able to double team Tim with two big men in the playoffs.

[timvp]

but are now disapointed about his lack of progress due to his poor feeling for the game.

Shooting 7% higher than last year with the Nuggets isn't progress? More points and rebounds per minute. More steal and more blocks.

But then again, getting Spurs fan to prop a player not on the Spurs is like pulling teeth.

[ducks]

The buyout was never $14 million. That is pretty much impossible, although I'll allow that Tau simply wouldn't let him go at all. In all likelihood that was Tau's starting bid in negotiations and the Spurs F.O. and the San Antonio media reported it as the hard and cold facts, since the Spurs don't negotiate at such high levels. They probably said, "Oberto will do just as well, and be cheaper," and signed him instead. When Scola finally plays his first games in the NBA, we'll see if they were correct, but that $14 million figure is nonsensical.

Nonsense or not, I don't fully mean the Spurs would have signed Scola that summer. But by signing Oberto instead, that took away $2.5 million (whatever it is) for two more years they could have 'earmarked' for Scola. Having Oberto simply meant that Scola really wasn't coming.

NO THE BUYOUT WAS 14 million
tau likes money when players leave under contract
SCOLA WAS A FUCKING IDIOT TO SIGN THE CONTRACT WITH THAT HUGE BUYOUT
QUIT BLAMING THE SPURS FOR THE BUYOUT

[timvp]

Avery would love to be able to double team Tim with two big men in the playoffs.

True. Good thing Elson averages more points and shoots for a higher percentage than Evans.

[ducks]

spurs could have earmarked the 2.5 million for scola and not sign oberta
but then horry and other bigs would have had to play more minutes
and would the spurs went over the luxcury tax additional 2.5 million beacuse they did not sign oberta?

should the spurs have earmarked the money they are giving to beno since he is worthless? why do you not bring that point up MR BODY!

[Bruno]

Shooting 7% higher than last year with the Nuggets isn't progress? More points and rebounds per minute. More steal and more blocks.

Wow, it's scary. Don't forget too that he averages more turnovers.



But then again, getting Spurs fan to prop a player not on the Spurs is like pulling teeth.

:lmao
It's not like I said that Dirk sucks, it's Reggie frickin Evans : a player whose coach thinks that he isn't good enough to get playtime over Eduardo " no knees" Najera and Linas "brick man" Kleiza.

[timvp]

Wow, it's scary. Don't forget too that he averages more turnovers.

Elson is also averaging a career-high in turnovers. Links to where you've brought that up?




:lmao
It's not like I said that Dirk sucks, it's Reggie frickin Evans : a player whose coach thinks that he isn't good enough to get playtime over Eduardo " no knees" Najera and Linas "brick man" Kleiza.

It's easy to prop a superstar. But to get a Spurs fan to prop a role player on another team is difficult. When is the last time you gave props to a role player? Link?

If Reggie Evans was on the Spurs, you'd have him in your avatar wearing a Santa hat.

Don't lie. :santahat

[Bruno]

Elson is also averaging a career-high in turnovers. Links to where you've brought that up?

and it still less than Evans.





It's easy to prop a superstar. But to get a Spurs fan to prop a role player on another team is difficult. When is the last time you gave props to a role player? Link?

I've given props to role players in almost all FA/trade thread when I've said that some role players could help Spurs.

If you want an example with a link :
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1434756&highlight=joe+smith#post1434756




If Reggie Evans was on the Spurs, you'd have him in your avatar wearing a Santa hat.

Don't lie. :santahat

:lol
No, there is only one Beno (hopefully for the nba).

[picnroll]

Pop wanted someone with a shot at staying on the floor and guarding Dirk. Elson certainly filled that bill potential-wise far better than Reggie.

[Fabbs]

Pop wanted someone with a shot at staying on the floor and guarding Dirk. Elson certainly filled that bill potential-wise far better than Reggie.
To me, Evans or Oberto is more the argument then Evans or Elson.
Elson may indeed end up contributing in 2007 playoffs. Fabs, rightly or not was given 2 seconds in last years Mavs fiasco.

timvp and i do not always agree, but he has scouted Evans thoroughly.
timvp says he can board, and the stats support it big time.

Now, since clearly defined role player is the topic, with Tim Duncan in, a large wide body that can board (Evans), is just what the Dr ordered.


As with Elson and for that matter Nazr 2005 (yes and even Rasho), another large body in on D greatly helps stifle the opponent. Since "Shots Altered" or as one poster put "SMTTAT" "Shot attempts made to think about twice" are not recorded, the value of another large mobile body cannot always be measured. Yes i know Nazr was not that mobile, but snicker all you want, he and for that matter Rasho (good rotater) made the D much more effective.
Fabs is clearly not altering shots or getting muscle boards. Position boards? Yes some.

[AFBlue]

Reggie Evans
18.6 Minutes
5.5 Points
7.6 Rebounds
.540 Field Goal Percentage

Francisco Elson
18.8 Minutes
5.1 Points
4.9 Rebounds
.534 Field Goal Percentage

So Elson plays more minutes but isn't even close to matching Evans production.

Kori put up more stats than you and there were major differences. Evans averages more rebounds (but that's his specialty), but is .4 better in points and .06 better in field goal percentage. He's better at steals, but that gap is made up in the difference between their blocks (to Elson's favor). Evans also barely shoots over 50% from the line. Point being...his stats don't monumentally eclipse Elsons in any way.

Getting Evans would've also most likely prevented the Spurs from snagging Butler. And though we're not certain what he'll give the Spurs, having a 21yr old F/C with decent post skills and some legit potential isn't a bad thing. You have to take into account the "opportunity cost" of signing a guy like Evans, who is a rebounding specialist w/ little to no offensive game/potential, and what it would mean to this team long term.

[ChumpDumper]

True. Good thing Elson averages more points and shoots for a higher percentage than Evans.I didn't know Evans was such a good outside shooter.

[AFBlue]

To me, Evans or Oberto is more the argument then Evans or Elson.
Elson may indeed end up contributing in 2007 playoffs. Fabs, rightly or not was given 2 seconds in last years Mavs fiasco.

timvp and i do not always agree, but he has scouted Evans thoroughly.
timvp says he can board, and the stats support it big time.

Now, since clearly defined role player is the topic, with Tim Duncan in, a large wide body that can board (Evans), is just what the Dr ordered.


As with Elson and for that matter Nazr 2005 (yes and even Rasho), another large body in on D greatly helps stifle the opponent. Since "Shots Altered" or as one poster put "SMTTAT" "Shot attempts made to think about twice" are not recorded, the value of another large mobile body cannot always be measured. Yes i know Nazr was not that mobile, but snicker all you want, he and for that matter Rasho (good rotater) made the D much more effective.
Fabs is clearly not altering shots or getting muscle boards. Position boards? Yes some.

Evans v. Oberto can't be the argument Fabbs. The Spurs didn't have the opportunity to sign Evans in lieu of Oberto, so that case doesn't hold. If the Spurs sign Evans last year, they don't sign Elson (and probably not Butler either)...it's that simple.

[Fabbs]

Evans v. Oberto can't be the argument Fabbs. The Spurs didn't have the opportunity to sign Evans in lieu of Oberto, so that case doesn't hold. If the Spurs sign Evans last year, they don't sign Elson (and probably not Butler either)...it's that simple.
Then sign no one. In retro that was the better move.

Same exact scenario as the summer after the 2003 Championship. Karl Malone sold his soul to the Fakers, thus the Spurs knee jerk reacted and signed Rasho at 7 million per for 5 years. Now i am not a Rasho hater, but I'm sure most all of us agree that was a very bad signing. In hindsight should we have roughed it out in 2004 or signed someone else for much cheaper then Rasho, even if they were to do just what Rasho did for one year. I'm sure someone was available either in the summer of 2003 or before the trade deadline 2003-4 midseason. (Tim, Kori, everyone help me out here. Was there not someone out there who could have done what Rasho did 2004 playoffs? Even if just for one year.)

Post 2005 same exact scenario. In hindsight would we have been better off not signing anyone instead of signing Fabs for 3 years? So we go thru 2006 playoffs without Fabs. The way it came down, that is basically what we did anyways. Surely we could have picked up a "Fabs" clone for one year at 900K. Heck one year at 2-3 mil.

[T Park]

Same exact scenario as the summer after the 2003 Championship. Karl Malone sold his soul to the Fakers, thus the Spurs knee jerk reacted and signed Rasho at 7 million per for 5 years

clearly they matched Malone with Rasho.

What in the fuck....

[Fabbs]

clearly they matched Malone with Rasho.

What in the fuck....
4 straight losses and afterwords the lingering albatross Rasho contract.
Yeah, that was worth it.
T_Park for Spurs GM.

[Dave McNulla]

Could we please have a clearly defined objective for said players role.

Beno Undies: He's the backup to TP. No wait, he isn't. It's
NVE: Thus Beno is benched. No wait, Beno is back. No he isn't, its
Jacque Vaugn. Okay at 900K this has been one the Spurs got the price right.

Fabs Oberto. He will be the 10-15 minute a game sub who will be primarily a very PT Center who can swing over to PF to spell Tim. No, he will be a starting center in spite of being unable to jump over a piece of paper. Yeah that will get us a title. No he will be a benchee. No, he will be back to starting center. Also, lets sign him for one year so we can work on Scola. No instead lets make it 3 years since Fabs can uh.....

Jackie Butler?? Millionaire NBA players who are signed in the summer should get one year plus to get in shape and learn the system. Yet we are battling Dallas etc for our playoff lives. Butler will help, right?


White: Don't even ask. Shuffle back n forth from NBDL league so he can watch Fins Horry and Bonner combine to go 1-22 in a blowout from the bench.
Yeah yeah yeah "He isn't ready". Sure, it would really hurt him to play a bit when the others were in contstant stink it up mode. Once again, his role is??

I'm not looking for 500 comments on who does or does not suck and why.
My point is clearly defined objective vs sandcastle then wave.holy ****, the spurs front office is a bunch of ****ing idiots. oh wait, the spurs are good and you're the idiot. stfu

[Fabbs]

holy ****, the spurs front office is a bunch of ****ing idiots. oh wait, the spurs are good and you're the idiot. stfu

Championship is the idea. Often takes adjustments.
Ad-just-ments.
Oh I'm sorry Mcnutty, that is a three syllable word.

[Dave McNulla]

you can adjust yourself all you want, you've never done anything and your opinion is w-o-r-t-h-l-e-s-s.

that's nine letters, although i don't see the point of this counting game. stfu

[SCdac]

It would be nice to see James White at least touch the floor.

Not that the Mavericks are some sort of model for us, but at least they've managed to give their rookies (Maurice Ager, Jose Juan Barea, Pops Mensah-Bonsu) playing time, while still maintaining a high level of basketball. Ager has played in 23 games, Barea 20 games, Bonsu 4 games. None of them played over 10 minutes (or even 5 minutes many of the times), but it's playing time none the less. Garbage minutes, blowouts, doesn't matter. Have to break them in sometime... Obviously different teams have different needs and priorities, but what are those rookies doing that James White isn't doing? Does it have less to do with White and more to do with the Spurs FO?

We're on a 12 game win streak, so there's not much to complain about, but surely White can play one or two games. I'm not too knowledgable on his play, but he did seem to be doing alright in the D-League, good enough to get the 'call back' (perhaps it had more to do with injuries to other Spurs).

[AFBlue]

I just read up on what little information there is on Dominic McGuire out of Fresno State.

See profile below:


While every team in the NBA is going out to Fresno State to watch Quinton Hosley this year, its Cal transfer and redshirt junior Dominic McGuire that people are coming away raving about. After putting up a terrific stat-line a few weeks ago against Stanford (25 points, 13 rebounds in a heartbreaking loss), we wanted to wait to see him one more time before we were willing to really confirm what we saw and have been hearing so much about. From what we can tell, it was certainly worth waiting for.

Watching him again this past week on the road against a very talented Nevada team, it’s really hard not to get excited about his potential. McGuire is a legit 6-8 swingman who plays all five positions for his team, showing freakish athleticism, a terrific frame, and the kind of emerging versatile skill-set that draws comparisons to a young Joe Johnson from his days at Arkansas. “He’s the most talented wing player on the West Coast besides Budinger,” says one NBA scout who has been out to see him on multiple occasions. “We’re talking lottery-type upside here.”

McGuire passes the eye test and then some for an NBA swingman, possessing great size, terrific length, and a very nice frame. He is silky smooth on top of that, showing outstanding fluidity, excellent body control and the type of explosiveness needed to get into the lane and hang in the air for some incredibly creative finishes.

He is used at the power forward position mostly for Fresno State, but will at times swing over to point guard for a stretch or just explode off the floor for a rebound and go coast to coast himself. His ball-handling skills are extremely impressive, being capable of shaking guys off the dribble going left or right, and creating his own shot to pull up smoothly from mid-range or quickly make his way to the hoop. On first and second glance, he appears to be a pretty smart player who plays within his team’s offense unselfishly and would rather not force the issue, even if his decision making skills aren’t always the best. He’s a nice passer as his 3.1 assists per game average would indicate, and will show some nice creativity at times by threading the needle with tough passes.

Defensively, McGuire is averaging an outstanding 3.6 blocks per game thanks to his combination of size, length, excellent timing and the quickness in which he gets off his feet. While this strength is not particularly likely to translate over to the NBA, he does have the tools to become an extremely disruptive defender on the wing, especially in terms of his lateral quickness. Likewise, he is a very strong rebounder at the WAC level, pulling down just under 9 per game to complete a very versatile picture. Just to illustrate that point, he had a triple-double a few weeks ago against San Diego, with 14 points (4-6 FG), 14 rebounds, 10 blocks. Just for good measure, he added 4 assists and 6 turnovers.

In terms of weaknesses, McGuire has quite a few wrinkles to his game he’ll need to iron out. For one, he’s not a great finisher around the basket, lacking a bit of strength and craft in terms of using the glass in traffic. His perimeter jumper shows promise at times, but is not consistent in the least bit, as he does not have very good balance or footwork, and therefore does not have a steady release point. Like many smooth swingmen who can get their shot off virtually at any time, he has a tendency at times to settle from the perimeter for off-balance shots when he’d be much better off taking the ball strong to the hoop. He shows great toughness on the defensive end as his shot-blocking and rebounding numbers would indicate, but this toughness and hunger does not quite translate over to the offensive end the way you might hope.

Generally speaking, McGuire is not the most polished player you’ll find despite his status as a redshirt junior. He is still young for his class, though, just having turned 21 three months ago. He certainly lacks some focus on the court as his up and down numbers would indicate, and there were some minor off the court rumblings from his days at Cal, mainly regarding his overall maturity level. In terms of pure talent, though, it’s tough not to be extremely intrigued by what he’s showing this year—albeit inconsistently—at Fresno. Guys who are 6-8 and possess his kind of skill-set and athletic ability certainly don’t come around every day. It probably wouldn’t surprise anyone to see his name on the early-entry list when it’s all said and done, but he’s going to have to put up more performances like he did against Stanford and Nevada to improve his chances of landing in the first round. With that said, he’s the type of guy who is absolutely tailor-made to the NBA private workout setting.

As he has really elevated his game this year, not much is known about him on the national scene. He is a guy that could be available with the Milwakee pick as of right now, and he could be a legit answer for long 3/small ball 4 the Spurs have been looking for.

[Mr. Body]

Do you think he'd stay in if he knew he'd drop into the 2nd round? He has what we need, but I don't see him coming out this year.

[mardigan]

I also think Morris Almond from Rice could be a good fit, he isnt the most athletic guy in the world, but can score from anywhere, and he is 6-6, 6-7 ish. I also like the 6-9 kid from Fresno State McGuire. 6-9 with good ballhandling skills and he can block shots and play defense. His shot is pretty inconsitent, but I think the Spurs shooting coach could fix that. I think he will probably fall into the second, but then again, he might stay in school his senior year to try and raise his stock

There ya go Tony, I love this kid too. I really think he could help us in many ways. But as you know, I really love Dudley and really hope the Spurs take him late in the first, or early in the second. By the way, did you ever see those vids of Bellinelli? Kid is so damn good...

[mardigan]

Do you think he'd stay in if he knew he'd drop into the 2nd round? He has what we need, but I don't see him coming out this year.

Yea I dont see him coming out this year either. He didnt raise his stock any from last year, and he probably realizes as we do that this years draft is deep. If I were him I would definately come back for my senior year, he would be a for sure first next year

[mardigan]

NBA draft.net and a couple other sI have seen have us taking this guy, havent seen a lot of him, but Im sure I will in the tourney




4Derrick ByarsVanderbilt
Birthday:4/25/1984NBA Postion:SG/SFClass:SeniorHt:6-7Wt:225College Team:VanderbiltHometown:Memphis, TNHigh School:Ridgeway

NBA Comparison: Brandon Roy
Strengths: Complete player with good lateral quickness and athleticism … Defensively Byars does a great job staying in front of his man … Fundamentally there are few guards in the draft that have his array of tools … Plays the game with a good level of moxie and toughness … Excellent ball handler who has played point guard several times during his collegiate career … Above average passer with solid court vision … Has legit three point range on his jumper that he can hit with regularity … Great finisher on the break where his body strength and athleticism allow him to finish with some flair … Adequate rebounder who does a good job of getting rebounds out of position … Has the ability work off screens for the quick jumper … Is an explosive scorer who has the mentality and skill to take control of a game … Possesses an NBA ready body that is strong enough to absorb contact and finish … Unselfish almost to a fault as he will often look to pass off to open teammates … Intelligent player with a good feel for the game … Will be viewed as one of the most complete prospects in the draft …

Weaknesses: Shot selection at times can be questionable … Would benefit his game if he utilized the mid-range shot more … Settles too much with shooting from the perimeter mostly from the three point shot … Needs to work on taking care of the ball better as he can get careless … Has a habit of getting out of control on his drives … Needs to move better without the ball has a tendency to stand around a little … Defensively Byars is solid but can reach a little too much on defense trying to get the quick steal … Doesn’t explode on his first step which could be the reason why he doesn’t always get full separation from his defender … Byars isn’t always consistent in games as he can go through periods where he is aggressive and dominates and then there are times he isn’t … Surprisingly despite his shooting touch he is a below average free throw shooter

[AFBlue]

Do you think he'd stay in if he knew he'd drop into the 2nd round? He has what we need, but I don't see him coming out this year.

At the end of the article it says that the writer wouldn't be shocked if he ended up on the early-entry list, especially since he is likely to excel in personal workouts with teams. Personally, I'm not sure if he comes out, but there's always hope...

[Mr. Body]

He'd come out only with a promise from a team, unless he's having troubles somewhere. It doesn't seem likely a future 1st rounder jumps the gun without some bad advice and then tumbles into the second round, though I guess there's plenty of precedent for it.

As for the Byars, Nick Youngs, Morris Almonds of the world, there will probably be one or two good pros in there somewhere, although there will be some Antoine Wrights. Nobody's a bust that late, though.

[AFBlue]

He'd come out only with a promise from a team, unless he's having troubles somewhere. It doesn't seem likely a future 1st rounder jumps the gun without some bad advice and then tumbles into the second round, though I guess there's plenty of precedent for it.

As for the Byars, Nick Youngs, Morris Almonds of the world, there will probably be one or two good pros in there somewhere, although there will be some Antoine Wrights. Nobody's a bust that late, though.

Liked what I saw out of Brandon Rush in the Big 12 Championship game. He had the athleticism to stick with Durant on D(as his drop in production coincided with Rush switching to him), and showed nice form on his long-range ball. I think he could be an excellent 2/3, but if he declares I think others will take a look at him before he gets to the Spurs. Still, the more prospects that declare, the better the Spurs' chances are of getting a contributor...

[Mr. Body]

Absolutely on Rush. One of the two major sites has him as a Spur. I'd love to have him.

[AFBlue]

He'd come out only with a promise from a team, unless he's having troubles somewhere. It doesn't seem likely a future 1st rounder jumps the gun without some bad advice and then tumbles into the second round, though I guess there's plenty of precedent for it.

As for the Byars, Nick Youngs, Morris Almonds of the world, there will probably be one or two good pros in there somewhere, although there will be some Antoine Wrights. Nobody's a bust that late, though.

It does happen all the time though. Plenty of prospects come out because they're told by agents and family that they're first round talent. Some are actually projected in the first round, but for some reason or another slip into the second. Others inexpicably enter the draft despite a first-round guarantee or even significant interest.

I'm not saying McGuire is one of those guys, but it's a possibility with so much potential talent in this draft, that teams intend to take players with their picks, but another player they didn't anticipate being there falls to them and it's a waterfall effect.