Fucking Chavez

[smeagol]

He comes to my country and leads and anti-American rally becaase Bush is on tour through LatAm. The Venezuelan president comes to Argentina to protest Bush's prescence in the region. What a fucking joke! Get the fuck back to Venezuela, totalitarian asshole. You have no business doing politics in Argentina.

And my idiotic president allows him to do this.

Fucking LatAm arcaic leftists are soo fucking stupid.

[boutons_]

dubya reactively goes to Brazil, trying vainly, too late, after ignoring central/south American for 6 years, to counter Chavez' influence, to make friendly, then refuses to remove or lower the $0.54/gal USA tariff on Brazilian ethanol. He says he'll help Brazil promote ethanol south of the Rio Grande, but not in USA. dubya's "diplomacy" is a fucking joke.

[Bob Lanier]

There's an "h" in archaic.

What I don't understand is why the Americans didn't have their block party in the hemisphere that actually matters. In the U.S., for instance, or Canada, law allows for freedom of speech and assembly, so Sr Chávez could do his street performance with only the minor inconvenience of some airport anal probing; the South American supplicant nations could have the pleasure of making their petitions in a modern environment; and Mr Bush could enjoy a round of diplomacy without leaving home and its attendant comforts and fully media-controlled environment.

[smeagol]

dubya reactively goes to Brazil, trying vainly, too late, after ignoring central/south American for 6 years, to counter Chavez' influence, to make friendly, then refuses to remove or lower the $0.54/gal USA tariff on Brazilian ethanol. He says he'll help Brazil promote ethanol south of the Rio Grande, but in USA. dubya's "diplomacy" is a fucking joke.
I've stated many times the US' trade policy is a joke. They want to come accorss as the champions of free markets when they put tariffs left and right to protect their most inefficient indutries.

That has nothing to do with this enormous clown that rules Venezuela, and the the bozos that run some of the other LatAm countries: Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, etc, etc . . .

[smeagol]

There's an "h" in archaic.
Thanks.

I was using the XV century spelling of the word :spin

[ponky]

one by one south america is turning left, what a beautiful thing to see

[smeagol]

one by one south america is turning left, what a beautiful thing to see
Beautiful?

What's wrong with you?

[Guru of Nothing]

He comes to my country and leads and anti-American rally becaase Bush is on tour through LatAm. The Venezuelan president comes to Argentina to protest Bush's prescence in the region. What a fucking joke! Get the fuck back to Venezuela, totalitarian asshole. You have no business doing politics in Argentina.

And my idiotic president allows him to do this.

Fucking LatAm arcaic leftists are soo fucking stupid.


This reminds me ... I want to finish reading Nostromo. I should go back and begin again from page 1.

[01Snake]

Beautiful?

What's wrong with you?


:spin He's a Mavs fan. Cut him some slack.

[gtownspur]

Ponky Brewster loves dicktaters.

[clambake]

Waste of time on his "Please like me tour". Throw money at brazil and fuck americans who can produce the ethenol. This must be pay back for american hate of the man.

[BIG IRISH]

Originally Posted by ponky
one by one south america is turning left, what a beautiful thing to see


Beautiful?

What's wrong with you?

Nothing wrong here. Just like the good old USA with the Dumbocrats. :lol

[jochhejaam]

He comes to my country and leads and anti-American rally becaase Bush is on tour through LatAm. The Venezuelan president comes to Argentina to protest Bush's prescence in the region. What a fucking joke! Get the fuck back to Venezuela, totalitarian asshole. You have no business doing politics in Argentina.

And my idiotic president allows him to do this.

Fucking LatAm arcaic leftists are soo fucking stupid.
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that Chavez has paid off billons <---intentionally misspelled so as to keep Bob Lanier involved of Argentina's debt.
Allegiance can be bought.

Article

In 1998, the first year of Chavez's presidency, oil price was $11 a barrel. It now stands at $56 a barrel, and has reached as high as $78 this year. Such drastic increases drove Venezuela's GDP up 10.2 percent in the last quarter alone.

"That’s why it's a big deal that Chavez is in. Because of high oil prices he has been able to free himself of debt, although not 100 percent," said Fred Rosen. Chavez has not just paid off most of his own country's debt, but even bought more than $1 billion of Argentine debt last year, enabling that country to pay off its IMF loan entirely.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/12/14/chavezs_market_vision.php

[boutons_]

"fuck americans who can produce the ethenol."

??? By tariffing Brazilian ethanol at $0.54/gal, dubya is protecting US ethanol producers, as well as subsidizing them.

ethanol is bullshit. It will drive up the price of corn, it has already, 70% of which goes to animal feed. It will never make a dent in the US imported oil, and gives less energy per gallon than gasoline, meaning less power (Americans love power) and less MPG than gasoline.

And of course, corn is already a energy- and water-intensive industry, and energy from corn kernels is about equal to the energy spent producing the corn kernels

http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/ethanol.html

As always, these oil-man Repugs will never do anything to promote (transport) oil conservation and do everything, including starting bullshit wars and spilling US military blood, in order to protect oilco profits.

[whottt]

Beautiful?

What's wrong with you?


You see why I support W now?

You see?

Because the alternative was her fucking candidate, who thinks just like her...

Notice how she said "turning left" like...she wasn't alive in the 20th century or something, or doesn't seem to be aware of Brazil's 20th century existence...seems to think Cuba is a wonderful place to live(probably blames America for Cuba's problems like the rest of the douchebag lefties).

Still want to tell me my political views are fucked up?


These fuckers scare the shit out of me...

Why not move to Cuba? I just don't get it. Cuba will let her come...it's the leaving that's the tricky part.

She cheers a government mindset of denying individual freedoms...throwing a blanket of ignorance over the heads of it's citizenry.

I mean if she hates being able to use her PC to give her opinion so much...why does she do it? Why not just throw her PC away?

I'm telling you, these fuckers are stupid.


I consider them the enemy because they want to steal my right to freedom...nbadan, boutons, these are scary fucking people.

[Bob Lanier]

So that's who whottt is.
http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/gfloren/ripper_anim.gif

[whottt]

Hey Bob...didn't you tell me you were Algerian and living in France?

What'sa matter? Don't like what France did to Algeria?

[Bob Lanier]

Hey Bob...didn't you tell me you were Algerian and living in France?
... no.

[whottt]

Just find me a socialist country with a positive immigration rate...s'all I'm asking.

[whottt]

... no.


You said something like that...during the WC. I know you were born in Africa and live in Europe but I can't remember the other details.

Tell me again?

You know I am American...

Tell me about you again so I can see what framed your POV.

[Bob Lanier]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Net_migration_rate_world.PNG/800px-Net_migration_rate_world.PNG


You said something like that...during the WC. I know you were born in Africa and live in Europe but I can't remember the other details.
I've lived in several European countries, including France, as well as the United States. Right now I'm in Singapore.

The only country "my people" have any real right to hold a nationalistic grudge against is Italy, and although my father fought with the British against Mussolini, that's long-dead history in my view, the kind that should only properly be brought up while talking smack during sporting events.

[whottt]

I don't see a one on there...


Argentina and Canada aren't totally Socialist yet...

[nkdlunch]

He comes to my country and leads and anti-American rally becaase Bush is on tour through LatAm. The Venezuelan president comes to Argentina to protest Bush's prescence in the region. What a fucking joke! Get the fuck back to Venezuela, totalitarian asshole. You have no business doing politics in Argentina.

And my idiotic president allows him to do this.

Fucking LatAm arcaic leftists are soo fucking stupid.

have you ever heard of free speech?

[Yonivore]

have you ever heard of free speech?
Have you ever heard of political consequences?

[velik_m]

Just find me a socialist country with a positive immigration rate...s'all I'm asking.

Whottt, i think you just found the solution to stop illegal immigration into USA.

[sabar]

one by one south america is turning left, what a beautiful thing to see

Beautiful? Have you even read a history book to see what has been happening in Latin America? What has happened in the past? I would have been born in Nicaragua had political turmoil and violence not forced my grandmother to flee to the United States.

[whottt]

Whottt, i think you just found the solution to stop illegal immigration into USA.

LMAO, if that's the solution I am gonna go ask Usama if he needs help building that bomb.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Fucking Chavez

I thought this was going to be the autobiography of Boutons :lol

[smeagol]

have you ever heard of free speech?
Free speach?

Call me again when a serious country (US, UK, Australia, Germany, Japan, etc, etc) allows the president of a second country organize a rally to badmouth a president from a third country.

Especially when the third country is the richest and most influential country in the world.

What a stupid comment nkdlunch.

[whottt]

smeagol gives me hope...


Board extremists...please notice, he's lived in both extremes.

[nkdlunch]

Free speach?

Call me again when a serious country (US, UK, Australia, Germany, Japan, etc, etc) allows the president of a second country organize a rally to badmouth a president from a third country.


earth to smeagol calling. UK, Blair, Bush, Iraq. there's your answer.

truth is US badmouths any country that disagrees with them, in Us soil of off Us soil.

[nkdlunch]

he's lived in high-middle class in both extremes.

fixed

he is not speaking for an "average" argentine.

[whottt]

You make that sound like he's doing somethign wrong...


Perhaps it's because he doesn't expect the govt to wipe his butt for him.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

earth to smeagol calling. UK, Blair, Bush, Iraq. there's your answer.

truth is US badmouths any country that disagrees with them, in Us soil of off Us soil.

Name one country that DOESN'T badmouth other countries when it disagrees with their foreign policies.

Fuck, wake up.

[nkdlunch]

thanks for proving my point Aggie

[smeagol]

earth to smeagol calling. UK, Blair, Bush, Iraq. there's your answer.

truth is US badmouths any country that disagrees with them, in Us soil of off Us soil.
Simply hopeless

[smeagol]

fixed

he is not speaking for an "average" argentine.
So what if I'm not? Does my opinion carry less weigth than a lower class person's opinion?

In any case, do you think it's right for Chavez to be allowed to rally 20,000 people in a host country to basically confront with the US (this is the second time he is done this)?

What "wrong" has the US done to Argentina?

Look, I don't agree with Bush's foreign policy (the war in Iraq is such a bad idea words escape me to begin to describe it) and I also disagree with the US' foreign policy in general, especially on stuff related to free trade, but talk about shooting yourself on the foot!

Bottom line, Chavez is an idiot (unfortunately, a rich one) that can buy his way among poor countries such as mine. But serious countries in the region, such as Chile (run by a socialist government, which I'm sure you approve of), don't even invite that mofo to talk about the arepas and the merengue dance.

"Socialismo o muerte"

Fuck that. I don't want anything to do with Chavez and his totalitarian ways.

[gtownspur]

thanks for proving my point Aggie


I hate the fact that my brownie folk love to romanticize Murderous Leftist Regimes.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

have you ever heard of free speech?you call it free speech from someone that is making friends with china, cuba, iran, and north korea?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

one by one south america is turning left, what a beautiful thing to seeyou're a complete idiot.

[Bob Lanier]

I would have been born in Nicaragua had political turmoil and violence not forced my grandmother to flee to the United States.
How's that working out for you?

[Purple & Gold]

Beautiful? Have you even read a history book to see what has been happening in Latin America? What has happened in the past? I would have been born in Nicaragua had political turmoil and violence not forced my grandmother to flee to the United States.
And what does this have to do with Chavez?

[Purple & Gold]

Reading how scared people like whottt are is disturbing. He sounds like a scared ass bitch. These are the people that allow politicians to play on their fears and give them free reign to do whatever they want. Next time, vote with your head and not your emotions.

[Purple & Gold]

He comes to my country and leads and anti-American rally becaase Bush is on tour through LatAm. The Venezuelan president comes to Argentina to protest Bush's prescence in the region. What a fucking joke! Get the fuck back to Venezuela, totalitarian asshole. You have no business doing politics in Argentina.

And my idiotic president allows him to do this.

Fucking LatAm arcaic leftists are soo fucking stupid.
Stop allowing your governments to oppress their people so much and you wouldn't have Latin American leftists.

[gtownspur]

Stop allowing your governments to oppress their people so much and you wouldn't have Latin American leftists, who oppress their govt's so much.


I agree.

[smeagol]

Stop allowing your governments to oppress their people so much and you wouldn't have Latin American leftists.
Leftist LatAm governments are the result of innefective right-wing LatAm governemtns, no question about it.

Nevertheless, the developed world also is responsible for people such as Chavez and the likes, given their lack of aid in the development of the poor economies.

And I know some idiots will say "The US is the country that gives the most aid, blah, blah, blah". It's not about giving. It's about policies. It's about the long term.

[101A]

Leftist LatAm governments are the result of innefective right-wing LatAm governemtns, no question about it.

Nevertheless, the developed world also is responsible for people such as Chavez and the likes, given their lack of aid in the development of the poor economies.

And I know some idiots will say "The US is the country that gives the most aid, blah, blah, blah". It's not about giving. It's about policies. It's about the long term.


Long term my ass. Throw money at a problem, it'll get fixed. Works every time.

[Purple & Gold]

I agree.
Read your history about Latin America. And then come back when you're informed.

[Purple & Gold]

Leftist LatAm governments are the result of innefective right-wing LatAm governemtns, no question about it.

Nevertheless, the developed world also is responsible for people such as Chavez and the likes, given their lack of aid in the development of the poor economies.

And I know some idiots will say "The US is the country that gives the most aid, blah, blah, blah". It's not about giving. It's about policies. It's about the long term.
The truth is that Chavez is the only hope that many poor people in these countries have. I don't have to tell you about the history of Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. They have been screwed over by their governments for so long. Chavez is a saint compared to these ex-presidents/dictators. The U.S. have definitely allowed for dictators to run rampant in Central and South America. It was to their benefit so they let it happen. Chavez is nowhere near a dictator or a totalitarian compared to Videla and Pinochet. People definitely need to learn their history about Latin America before they try to call out Chavez.

[smeagol]

Long term my ass. Throw money at a problem, it'll get fixed. Works every time.
Throwing money at corrupt governments, such as many LatAm and African ones, has done nothing for its people.

Have you learned nothing from 50 years of American foreign policy?

[101A]

Throwing money at corrupt governments, such as many LatAm and African ones, has done nothing for its people.

Have you learned nothing from 50 years of American foreign policy?


Do you recognize sarcasm?

-and it's not just FOREIGN policy. The US govt. tends to use the same, or very similar, remedies, for ALL of its problems.

[smeagol]

The truth is that Chavez is the only hope that many poor people in these countries have.

Bullshit.

Chavez is a short term fix for the poor in Venezuela. One day oil will go down to US$15 bbl and this clown will have no money to throw away to the needy classes. He is wasting a golden opportunity to develop the country and create long term solutions for the poor.

Chavez is to the Venezuelan's of the year 2000 what Peron was to the Argentines of the 1950s. A pile of steaming shit.


I don't have to tell you about the history of Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc.

No you don't.


They have been screwed over by their governments for so long.

They have been scrwed by all their governments. Right and left. No one government takes a pass here. The leftists governments have been as bad as the military dictators.


Chavez is a saint compared to these ex-presidents/dictators.

You have a screw loose.


The U.S. have definitely allowed for dictators to run rampant in Central and South America. It was to their benefit so they let it happen.

This I wholeheartedly agree. It's one of the reasons why I don't agree with America's two-faced foreign policy.


Chavez is nowhere near a dictator or a totalitarian compared to Videla and Pinochet.

Chavez is much worse than Pinochet. Pinochet at least paved the road for Chile to become what it is. And Videla had to fight against communist terrorism.

What is Chavez doing that is so good? Giving away money to the poor? In exchange for what? Is he creating jobs? Is he educating his people?

He is a fucking ignorant populist, totalitarian LatAm clown.


People definitely need to learn their history about Latin America before they try to call out Chavez.

Junior, I know the history of my country (and a little history of other LatAm countries too) and I can honestly tell you Chavez is an imbecile who is doing much more harm than good.

[smeagol]

Do you recognize sarcasm?

-and it's not just FOREIGN policy. The US govt. tends to use the same, or very similar, remedies, for ALL of its problems.
Not if you don't put a :spin beside the comment. :lol

I'm a little slow today.

Sorry :smokin

[Purple & Gold]

Bullshit.
Chavez is a short term fix for the poor in Venezuela. One day oil will go down to US$15 bbl and this clown will have no money to throw away to the needy classes. He is wasting a golden opportunity to develop the country and create long term solutions for the poor.

Your opinion. It must be nice to be able to wait things out when most people are starving and barely making it day to day.


Chavez is to the Venezuelan's of the year 2000 what Peron was to the Argentines of the 1950s. A pile of steaming shit.

So you support what Videla did?


They have been scrwed by all their governments. Right and left. No one government takes a pass here. The leftists governments have been as bad as the military dictators.

There have been much less leftist governments then there have been governments on the right. The U.S. propped up the governments on the right. Why do you think there have been hardly any leftist governments.


You have a screw loose.

You're an idiot.


Chavez is much worse than Pinochet. Pinochet at least paved the road for Chile to become what it is. And Videla had to fight against communist terrorism.

And here the truth comes out. You supported Pinochet and Videla. Paved the road for Chile to become what it is? On who's bones asshole? Videla had to fight against communist terrorism? You sure have been handed the Videla talking points. You are defending two of the worst dictators in Latin America ever. They murdered, silenced, oppressed, how many people?


What is Chavez doing that is so good? Giving away money to the poor? In exchange for what? Is he creating jobs? Is he educating his people?

Actually he is creating jobs and educating his people. You're an idiot if you don't see it.


He is a fucking ignorant populist, totalitarian LatAm clown.

This coming from a supporter of Pinochet and Videla. Asshole.


Junior, I know the history of my country (and a little history of other LatAm countries too) and I can honestly tell you Chavez is an imbecile who is doing much more harm than good.
Your a fucking dumbass. Another typical elitist South American that cares nothing about the people of his country. You know the history you choose to follow. As long as their crimes didn't effect you it was OK. I'm glad the people have finally woke up and are taking the power away from people like you and your way of thinking.

[smeagol]

Your opinion. It must be nice to be able to wait things out when most people are starving and barely making it day to day.

So you solution is to give away money to the needy and do shit for the long term development of Venezuela instead of developing the economy and thus resolving, in a moderate amount of time, his situation and his son’s situation and his son’s son’s situation?

Great approach.


So you support what Videla did?

I support the fight against communism which in Argentina manifested itself in the form of murderous guerrillas. I don’t support part of Videla’s methodology.


There have been much less leftist governments then there have been governments on the right.

Yap, yap, yap.

Alfonsin, Alan Garcia, Fidel Castro, Chavez, Kirchner, Tabare Vazquez, all the Chilean governments since Pinochet, Ortega.

Learn your history you fucking ignorant moron.


The U.S. propped up the governments on the right. Why do you think there have been hardly any leftist governments.

Hopeless moron, go and read some history books.

Where are you from?


And here the truth comes out. You supported Pinochet and Videla. Paved the road for Chile to become what it is? On who's bones asshole?

Of course he did. Chile is what it is today because of him. Prove me otherwise.

And what is your truth?


Videla had to fight against communist terrorism?

Do you deny this, illiterate dumbfuck?


You sure have been handed the Videla talking points.

What Videla talking points? The majority of Argentines requested the armed forces to take over power after the Montoneros and other terrorists groups where killing innocent people left and right. It is documented. Go read some history. It’s you who seems to read only the leftist propaganda. You probably believe the Montoneros where “Buenos muchachos idealistas” as that two faces asshole Peron described them.


You are defending two of the worst dictators in Latin America ever. They murdered, silenced, oppressed, how many people?

Who do you defend? Castro, who killed, oppressed and silenced thousands? Chavez, who is silencing everybody in Venezuela who opposes him and wants to rule until he dyes? Or you probably defend other communists: Stalin, who murder millions, or Mao. Fuck you.


Actually he is creating jobs and educating his people. You're an idiot if you don't see it.

Do you know anybody in Venezuela? Crime rates are up, poverty is up. Damn you are stupid.


Your a fucking dumbass. Another typical elitist South American that cares nothing about the people of his country. You know the history you choose to follow. As long as their crimes didn't effect you it was OK. I'm glad the people have finally woke up and are taking the power away from people like you and your way of thinking.

Hey, fucking asshole. You know my background. What is yours? Are you American? Where the fuck are you typing this nonsense from? Are you in Venezuela living the revolution? Or are you in Argentina, sucking Kirchner’s dick and rejoicing when he allows Chavez to rally people against the US.

Show your face, imbecile.

[smeagol]

ripper, how is Venezuela doing?

Long term, is this financial model sustainable?

Socialismo o muerte . . . what do you think?

[xrayzebra]

This argument is really mute. Look at Mexico and the rest
of the governments in LA. Corruption from top to bottom, that
has been the problem. Chavez is no different. Until they get
people in government that want to improve things for their countries in the LA countries it will never be any
different. All of the LA countries are rich in resources, including
their people and all have been exploited for the few who
wield power, right or left. For those who support the socialist
system, you only have to look at Cuba and Mexico (yes they are
socialist, even when the so called "right" was in power) and
other LA countries.

[Purple & Gold]

smeagol your a typical South American/European elitist asshole that supported the genocide of the indigenous people of his own country. Your the worst type of scum. The fact that you support what Videla and Pinochet did shows who you really are. Only recently have the left seized control in Latin America. Regan made sure to keep the right in power. I know my history, you might be able to try and twist it for those that don't know, but that won't work with me. I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but there are many things he has done that are great for his people. At least he's trying and not oppressing the poor people for only the betterment of the few elite. Something that I know you support. He is educating the people, you talk shit, only because he is redistributing the wealth. Something that should have been done years ago. You know nothing about me and have no idea who I support. But yet you bring up Stalin and Mao. Laughable. Only an ignorant elitist asshole thinks in extremes. Fuck you. I'm glad people like you and your line of thinking are losing their grip on Latin America.

[leemajors]

smeagol your a typical South American/European elitist asshole that supported the genocide of the indigenous people of his own country. Your the worst type of scum. The fact that you support what Videla and Pinochet did shows who you really are. Only recently have the left seized control in Latin America. Regan made sure to keep the right in power. I know my history, you might be able to try and twist it for those that don't know, but that won't work with me. I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but there are many things he has done that are great for his people. At least he's trying and not oppressing the poor people for only the betterment of the few elite. Something that I know you support. He is educating the people, you talk shit, only because he is redistributing the wealth. Something that should have been done years ago. You know nothing about me and have no idea who I support. But yet you bring up Stalin and Mao. Laughable. Only an ignorant elitist asshole thinks in extremes. Fuck you. I'm glad people like you and your line of thinking are losing their grip on Latin America.

not to nitpick, but you still haven't answered his question. :dramaquee

[Purple & Gold]

not to nitpick, but you still haven't answered his question. :dramaquee
Honestly I really don't care to answer anything from this asshole. I have no time for him.

[johnsmith]

Honestly I really don't care to answer anything from this asshole. I have no time for him.


Then why do you keep replying to him?

[Purple & Gold]

Then why do you keep replying to him?
Because I had no idea how much of a douchebag this guy is. I don't spend enough time in the political forum to realize the assholes that hang out in here. But now I know.

[xrayzebra]

smeagol your a typical South American/European elitist asshole that supported the genocide of the indigenous people of his own country. Your the worst type of scum. The fact that you support what Videla and Pinochet did shows who you really are. Only recently have the left seized control in Latin America. Regan made sure to keep the right in power. I know my history, you might be able to try and twist it for those that don't know, but that won't work with me. I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but there are many things he has done that are great for his people. At least he's trying and not oppressing the poor people for only the betterment of the few elite. Something that I know you support. He is educating the people, you talk shit, only because he is redistributing the wealth. Something that should have been done years ago. You know nothing about me and have no idea who I support. But yet you bring up Stalin and Mao. Laughable. Only an ignorant elitist asshole thinks in extremes. Fuck you. I'm glad people like you and your line of thinking are losing their grip on Latin America.

And here we have someone who "claims" to know
"his history". Like most of his kind, he knows nothing
of the history of "his" history or the history of any of
the Latin American countries. Most have always had
a socialist or dictorial government. Not a republican
or democratic type government. Stupid is as stupid is.
And this is what you deal with.

[whottt]

Give it up smeag...asshats that think Castro and his ilk are heroes. Easy for them to do since they don't have to actually live under the leadership of this type. This is my only concern about immigration...that we'll get even more of these douchebags over here and they'll make America as fucked up as the place they are trying to leave. It doesn't help that we have an inordinate amount of useful idiots here to begin with.


As you can no doubt tell by the amount of moronic Chavez fans in this thread.


Smeagol...the mindset you are arguing with...since they can't be successful, you shouldn't be allowed to either.

You're evil because you're successful...

[clambake]

I'm no Chavez fan, but he does have a way of exploiting the side of Bush that most republicans refuse to acknowledge.

Real Chavez fans get free oil. In a sense, he and Bush throw gifts to sway opinion.

[smeagol]

not to nitpick, but you still haven't answered his question. :dramaquee
Because not only is he an idiot, he is also a coward.

Show your true colors, Lakerfan, tell us where you stand.

I have a feeling you are Argentine . . . the type that thinks Hebe de Bonafini is a great woman and that Kirchner is an excellent president. You are probably in favor of the "piquetes" and the blocking of the roads to Uruguay.

Oh . . . and you probably believe Allende was going to be God's gift to Chile :lol

Learn you history. Argentina went through a war against hoards of killer communist bands. And all the political parties at the time begged for the Military to restore order. Again, the military went overboard, I admit it. But those red assholed were the worst thing that could happen to my country.

[Phenomanul]

smeagol your a typical South American/European elitist asshole that supported the genocide of the indigenous people of his own country. Your the worst type of scum. The fact that you support what Videla and Pinochet did shows who you really are. Only recently have the left seized control in Latin America. Regan made sure to keep the right in power. I know my history, you might be able to try and twist it for those that don't know, but that won't work with me. I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but there are many things he has done that are great for his people. At least he's trying and not oppressing the poor people for only the betterment of the few elite. Something that I know you support. He is educating the people, you talk shit, only because he is redistributing the wealth. Something that should have been done years ago. You know nothing about me and have no idea who I support. But yet you bring up Stalin and Mao. Laughable. Only an ignorant elitist asshole thinks in extremes. Fuck you. I'm glad people like you and your line of thinking are losing their grip on Latin America.

Chavez is handing out fish and crumbs tin order to keep the masses happy - Instead of teaching them how to 'fish for themselves'.

He's a joke politician.... All he really cares about is POWER - not the people. That's the primary attribute that defines these dictators - insatiable thirst for power.

[smeagol]

Chavez is handing out fish and crumbs tin order to keep the masses happy - Instead of teaching them how to 'fish for themselves'.

He's a joke politician.... All he really cares about is POWER - not the people. That's the primary attribute that defines these dictators - insatiable thirst for power.
The problem is the LatAm leftists disregard the facts. As long as a dictator is from the left, like Castro, Ortega or Chavez, these morons applaud him.

They think they rule "for the people" when they are really ruining the people.

How can sombody support a regime that has been in power since 1959, does not allow it's citizens to leave the country and is planning to hand power to his fucking brother?

Or support a tatalitarian who changes to Constitution to suit his power-hungry needs, who has relected himself until 2012 and already said he wants to be in power until 2021. What the fuck is wrong with you? How the fuck can you support this scum?

Dude: Capitalism >>>>>>>>>>> Communism.

Only a moron would argue against that premiss.

[smeagol]

Because I had no idea how much of a douchebag this guy is. I don't spend enough time in the political forum to realize the assholes that hang out in here. But now I know.
Fuck you.

Tell me what you stand for and where you are from, you pussy.

[leemajors]

i don't think he is from latin america, it's at least implied here:


Stop allowing your governments to oppress their people so much and you wouldn't have Latin American leftists.

i have said it before, when i first saw the revolution will not be televised i thought chavez seemed like a pretty stand-up guy - they did a good job of painting him as a man of the people. the figures i have seen afterwards seem to indicate otherwise - not much has changed economically, the same top % of the population still has the wealth, it just may have changed hands. that's not what i would call progress, though i am no expert.

[Bob Lanier]

That's the primary attribute that defines these dictators - insatiable thirst for power.
That's the primary attribute of all living things.

The sexual tension in this thread is astounding.

[Purple & Gold]

i don't think he is from latin america, it's at least implied here:
I am Latino, but no I'm not Argentinean. But I sure do know a lot about the history of Argentina though. I know many people that have had many of their relatives just disappear into the night. And yet this asshole still supports them.

Again, the military went overboard, I admit it.
Talk about the understatement of the millennium. Went overboard? Tell that to the Madres De Plaza De Mayo. It's a lot more than overboard asshole.

Point blank anybody that supports what Pinochet and Videla did is a fucking scumbag piece of shit and deserves the same fate of what happened to those people.

[whottt]

i don't think he is from latin america, it's at least implied here:



i have said it before, when i first saw the revolution will not be televised i thought chavez seemed like a pretty stand-up guy - they did a good job of painting him as a man of the people. the figures i have seen afterwards seem to indicate otherwise - not much has changed economically, the same top % of the population still has the wealth, it just may have changed hands. that's not what i would call progress, though i am no expert.


Don't worry...things will change. Venzuela is well on it's way to being a Utopia.

[whottt]

I am Latino, but no I'm not Argentinean. But I sure do know a lot about the history of Argentina though. I know many people that have had many of their relatives just disappear into the night. And yet this asshole still supports them.


And you think this doesn't happen in Socialist Utopias?


Chavez' heroes are Kim Jong Il and Castro...

You would not believe how stupid you sound right now.

You're an extremist...even worse, you're an extremist that never has to feel the embrace of his extremism.


Throw away your PC, don't watch the news...if you lived in Cuba you wouldn't be allowed too...go on, live under the conditions you champion for others.


When you leave America for Venzuela...be sure to do it on a raft with no food or water, you know, like Cubans have to do to get out.


Show us how bad it is for you here in America....

[Purple & Gold]

Chavez is handing out fish and crumbs tin order to keep the masses happy - Instead of teaching them how to 'fish for themselves'.

He's a joke politician.... All he really cares about is POWER - not the people. That's the primary attribute that defines these dictators - insatiable thirst for power.
It's a process. This shit is not instantaneous. The Misiones Bolivarianas are reforms that have been put in place by Chavez. They are reforms in education, health care, housing, helping the kids on the street, etc. There's so many of them and they are for the betterment of the country as a whole. So please don't act like Chavez just gives money away and doesn't teach people to 'fish for themselves'. That's just wrong and not true. Social services are not handouts.

[leemajors]

i don't know anything about Pinochet and Videla, but are they as notorious as rosas? my main source of argentinian history has come from borges, sadly.

[Purple & Gold]

And you think this doesn't happen in Socialist Utopias?


Chavez' heroes are Kim Jong Il and Castro...

You would not believe how stupid you sound right now.

You're an extremist...even worse, you're an extremist that never has to feel the embrace of his extremism.


Throw away your PC, don't watch the news...if you lived in Cuba you wouldn't be allowed too...go on, live under the conditions you champion for others.


When you leave America for Venzuela...be sure to do it on a raft with no food or water, you know, like Cubans have to do to get out.


Show us how bad it is for you here in America....
Your such a fucking idiot and a scared little bitch. You are the type of people that allow politicians to commit the worst crimes by playing on your fears. No I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but a change was needed and he's what the people voted for. If it wasn't so fucked up before he wouldn't have been elected. You agree with an asshole that supports murderers, you are the one that looks stupid. Republicans are the ones that are scared of freedom of speech and freedom of the press and yet you cast stones at other leaders when the one that you put in office is trying to do the same thing. Get the fuck out of here with your stupid opinions. You bring nothing to the table at all.

[whottt]

It's a process. This shit is not instantaneous. The Misiones Bolivarianas are reforms that have been put in place by Chavez. They are reforms in education, health care, housing, helping the kids on the street, etc. There's so many of them and they are for the betterment of the country as a whole. So please don't act like Chavez just gives money away and doesn't teach people to 'fish for themselves'. That's just wrong and not true. Social services are not handouts.


Dude...Chavez is sitting there talking about what great leaders Kim Jong Il and Castro are...

Doesn't that make you just a little wary of his long term ambitions and what he is willing to do to stay in power?

Or are you just completely clueless about those countries?


Oh wait...I get it, you've got no problem with dictators, as long they're your dictator...

Smeagol>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P&G

[whottt]

Your such a fucking idiot and a scared little bitch. You are the type of people that allow politicians to commit the worst crimes by playing on your fears. No I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but a change was needed and he's what the people voted for. If it wasn't so fucked up before he wouldn't have been elected. You agree with an asshole that supports murderers, you are the one that looks stupid. Republicans are the ones that are scared of freedom of speech and freedom of the press and yet you cast stones at other leaders when the one that you put in office is trying to do the same thing. Get the fuck out of here with your stupid opinions. You bring nothing to the table at all.


So you'll be moving to Cuba when?


Answer fast.

BTW, I own you and am smarter than you because I realize the ignorance behind your racial and ethnic identity...and you don't.

You and your views are merely the other side of the same coin you claim to abhor.

It's your own mind that makes you a slave.

[Purple & Gold]

i don't know anything about Pinochet and Videla, but are they as notorious as rosas? my main source of argentinian history has come from borges, sadly.
Notorious is an understatement. Pinochet and Videla silenced thousands of their own people with rape, murder, torture, fear, etc. Anybody that was against them came up missing in middle of the night. The sad thing about it is that the U.S. allowed it to happen. Here's a couple of links on them.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/videla.html

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pinochet.html

There's all types of information on them all over the net.

[whottt]

SO what are old Chavez' plans for after he leaves office...I'd be interested in seeing this...

[Purple & Gold]

So you'll be moving to Cuba when?


Answer fast.

BTW, I own you and am smarter than you because I realize the ignorance behind your racial and ethnic identity...and you don't.

You and your views are merely the other side of the same coin you claim to abhor.

It's your own mind that makes you a slave.
Your a fucking idiot whottt. Everybody on this board owns you. Your such a hypocrite it's sad. I've met your type before, I know you have never and will never do anything positive and amount to anything. Please do us all a favor and lock yourself in a cave till you come out enlightened.

[Purple & Gold]

SO what are old Chavez' plans for after he leaves office...I'd be interested in seeing this...
Stick to being an idiot your better at it.

[Purple & Gold]

This is for you whottt. Your boy smeagol is already a lost cause.

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/goya/9g/91/43capric.jpg

[whottt]

The sad thing about it is that the U.S. allowed it to happen. Here's a couple of links on them..


So this means you support Bush and the Iraq war...

Right? I mean you not being a hypocrite and all.

[whottt]

whottt = lives in America, loves America

Purple & Gold = lives in America, loves Chavez...

Who's the hypocrite?

[whottt]

smeagol isn't an extremist like yourself...he didn't wholheartedly embrace murderous dictators...you do. Because Chavez does...

As long as they only kill and steal the property of the rich white looking Latino pigs it's ok, right P&G?

[Purple & Gold]

So this means you support Bush and the Iraq war...

Right? I mean you not being a hypocrite and all.
I supported going to war for breaking a treaty. I support using the U.N. (which was entirely on our side) to pressure all dictators out of office. I did not support the way Bush ran this war and how he spit at the U.N. I did not support how he lied to the people.

And since we are talking about hypocrisy did you support Clinton going into former Yugoslavia and taking out Milosevic? Don't lie now...

[Purple & Gold]

whottt = lives in America, loves America

Purple & Gold = lives in America, loves Chavez...

Who's the hypocrite?
First of all read what I said again asshole. I know you only like to read what supports your way of thinking, but stop being such a disingenuous piece of shit. Funny thing is I have actually supported this country and have served on it's behalf. What have you done?

[Purple & Gold]

smeagol isn't an extremist like yourself...he didn't wholheartedly embrace murderous dictators...you do. Because Chavez does...

As long as they only kill and steal the property of the rich white looking Latino pigs it's ok, right P&G?
Ohhh i wholeheartedly support Chavez? Like I said read it again. smeagol does support murderous dictators, read what he wrote again.

Kill and steal the property of rich white looking Latino pigs it's ok? Now you are just a dumbass fishing for anything. Please keep your insinuations to yourself. Funny thing is you have no idea what I look like and what I support. People that know me would laugh at you for that comment. Your a scared bitch, and you have no clue what your talking about. You make yourself look stupider and stupider by the second.

[whottt]

And since we are talking about hypocrisy did you support Clinton going into former Yugoslavia and taking out Milosevic? Don't lie now...


Of course I did. Clinton was my President. I voted for him twice. I wouldn't do it now under the current political climate...but at the time he was the right choice.

Chavez may be the right choice now...but very shortly he won't be. That's when the problems will begin...because in the Socialist Utopia, if you aren't in the government, you have to live like everyone else...who wants to go back to drinking beer once they've gotten used to champagne?

LA just keeps flip flopping extremes...

Of course America is going to fuck over leaders with Socialist ambitions at the height of the cold war...even if it means going to the other extreme, so long as they aren't likely to cozy up with our major enemy...

That's intelligence on our part...

It's not our fault you guys inherited Spain's political bi polar disorder.


Moderation is the key...not an extremist stance.

[whottt]

Ohhh i wholeheartedly support Chavez? Like I said read it again. smeagol does support murderous dictators, read what he wrote again.

Kill and steal the property of rich white looking Latino pigs it's ok?

Smeagol is dealing with the here and now...I've seen enough of his political views in the 4 years he's been here to know that he isn't an extremist...





Now you are just a dumbass fishing for anything. Please keep your insinuations to yourself. Funny thing is you have no idea what I look like and what I support.

Yes I do...put it this way, if you are a white looking Latino then you are one trying to prove you aren't white.



People that know me would laugh at you for that comment. Your a scared bitch, and you have no clue what your talking about. You make yourself look stupider and stupider by the second.

Yawn...

[Purple & Gold]

Of course America is going to fuck over leaders with Socialist ambitions at the height of the cold war...even if it means going to the other extreme, so long as they aren't likely to cozy up with our major enemy...

That's intelligence on our part...

So you think it's OK to support leaders like Videla and Pinochet? Cause that's exactly what happened.

Moderation is the key...not an extremist stance.
Shit it doesn't get any more extreme than those two.

[whottt]

Earlier...to smeagol:



Your opinion. It must be nice to be able to wait things out when most people are starving and barely making it day to day.

Here's where you show...well take your choice...you are either ignorning the living conditionsof the populations of two leaders Chavez idolizes...or you don't give a shit, exactly like you accused smeagol of doing.



So you support what Videla did?


Here's where you take smeagol out of context and try to paint him into a corner as a right wing extremist...

You must have missed the boardwide pileon smeagol got for saying America should do more to feed the world's poor.


There have been much less leftist governments then there have been governments on the right. The U.S. propped up the governments on the right. Why do you think there have been hardly any leftist governments.


And of those that have existed...how have they turned out?

It's just too different extremes...of course America is going to shit on leftist extremism...because it's the antithesis of every thing we stand for. And we didn't want an arms race in our half of the globe.



And here the truth comes out. You supported Pinochet and Videla. Paved the road for Chile to become what it is? On who's bones asshole? Videla had to fight against communist terrorism? You sure have been handed the Videla talking points. You are defending two of the worst dictators in Latin America ever. They murdered, silenced, oppressed, how many people?


Here you call out smeagol and pigeon hole...completely ignorant, or completely indifferent of the practices of Castro and Il....


Actually he is creating jobs and educating his people. You're an idiot if you don't see it.

The creating job is better done by attracting businessmen and people that actually know how to run businesses than leaving it up to the government.

Nationalizing industries is nothing more than state capitalism and theft...of the absolute worst kind.

It's also a fucking brain drain...because anyone with a brain is going to gtf out of the situation...why work just to have everything worked for taken from you on the whim of someone who hates the rich?


You aren't near as smart as you think you are if you think governments do this well...right or left.


Education you have a point...but it's not going to be a pure education...it's going to be slanted to the left...and it's going to have a bunch of leftist propaganda preaching the importance of the collective over the selfishness of the individual...

Whilce Chavez has a power jerk every night and lives at a comfort level higher than any single individual in his country...so long as he stays Pres.

The President doesn't live better than anyone in America.

Which one is a truer reflection of their people?

The one man who lives like a king? Lame.






Your a fucking dumbass. Another typical elitist South American that cares nothing about the people of his country. You know the history you choose to follow. As long as their crimes didn't effect you it was OK. I'm glad the people have finally woke up and are taking the power away from people like you and your way of thinking.

LMAO I can't belive you asked me to go back and read what you wrote...



My bad...I must have misunderstood you.


You don't even know what the fuck you are saying...how can anyone else?

[Purple & Gold]

Smeagol is dealing with the here and now...I've seen enough of his political views in the 4 years he's been here to know that he isn't an extremist...
smeagol is a fucking asshole, look at who he supported.

Yes I do...put it this way, if you are a white looking Latino then you are one trying to prove you aren't white.
Still fucking fishing... Admit it your just an idiot that has no clue what he's talking about and is in way over his head. Just STFU now. You bring nothing.

[Purple & Gold]

My bad...I must have misunderstood you.


You don't even know what the fuck you are saying...how can anyone else?
It's not my fault if you can't understand what you read. I can't help you there. I'm tired of talking to you. I can feel my IQ dropping by talking to you.

[whottt]

Well I can read your views and other than the wrench you threw on Iraq support...

You just simply hate the rich...and you seek not to become rich yourself, but to prevent others from doing so.

You are definitely a socialist of the purest kind...hold the fastest horse back, rather than try to catch him by becoming faster.

One way moves backwards...and the other way is always trying to improve.

[whottt]

Even the name of the SportsTeam you root for brands you as a hypocrite...

The Richest, the biggest....


You should be a Magic fan...but no, you have absolutely no problem with LA financially strongarming Orlando to get Shaq, do you?

[whottt]

Starving North Koreans executed for stealing food


By Ramola Talwar Badam
ASSOCIATED PRESS



BOMBAY — Starving North Koreans have been publicly executed for stealing food and have died of malnutrition in labor camps, Amnesty International said in a report released yesterday.
The human rights group urged the North Korean government to "ensure that food shortages are not used as a tool to persecute perceived political opponents."
The report — released in Bombay at the World Social Forum, an international gathering of antiglobalization activists — records the chilling testimony of North Korean refugees interviewed in South Korea and Japan, and interviews with international aid groups during 2002 and 2003.
The report accuses the North Korean government of distributing food unfairly, favoring those who are economically active and politically loyal.
"Some North Koreans, who were motivated by hunger to steal food grains or livestock, have been publicly executed," Amnesty International researcher Rajiv Narayan said.
"Public notices advertised the executions, and schoolchildren were forced to watch the shootings or hangings," he said.
Public executions were at their highest from 1996 to 1998, when famine gripped North Korea, the report said.
Refugees told Amnesty International that food usually consisted of potato skins and beans.
North Korea's isolated Stalinist regime has relied on foreign aid to feed its people since revealing in the mid-1990s that its state-run farming industry had collapsed.
The report appears to confirm fears of the United States and others that food supplies are being diverted to the military or given as rewards to supporters of North Korean leader Kim Jong-il.
"We were always so hungry and resorted to eating grass in spring," said one person, identified only as Kim, who served four years in a labor camp on treason charges. Kim spoke of meals being taken away as punishment if detainees were caught speaking to each other.
"When someone died, fellow prisoners delayed reporting his death to the authorities so that they could eat his allocated breakfast," Kim said.
Human rights activists have criticized North Korea for its harsh labor camps, where people are detained after fleeing to China to escape famine and political repression.
China has a treaty with Pyongyang that obliges it to return fleeing North Koreans, but allows them to leave for the South if their cases become publicly known.
On Monday, the United Nations' World Food Program said it had been forced to cut off food aid to 2.7 million North Korean women and children during the country's harsh winter because of a lack of foreign donations.
A key issue for the North's biggest food donors — the United States and South Korea — has been Pyongyang's restrictions on allowing foreign agencies to monitor who receives food aid.
The Amnesty International report called for "free and unimpeded access" for humanitarian groups to all parts of North Korea.

[whottt]

Meanwhile...

Venezuelan Leader to Visit Kim Jong-il

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a fierce critic of the United States, said Saturday he will meet North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. Observers speculate that ideas for cooperation between the two countries could include an oil-for-missiles deal.
Chavez, who has mentioned plans to visit North Korea several times, told reporters the trip would be about bilateral agreements in technology and science. He did not specify a date.


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and North Korean leader Kim Jong-il (right)



The two countries forged diplomatic ties in 1974 and have strengthened their relationship since Chavez took office in 1998. In September last year, Yang Hyong-sop, the vice president of the North Korea’s Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly, visited Caracas and stressed the need for the two countries to respond jointly to “American pressure and threats.” About a month later, a North Korean economic delegation visited the south American country. Guillermo Garcia Ponce, a former leader of Venezuela’s Communist Party has reportedly visited North Korea several times, and Pyongyang will reportedly open an embassy in Caracas in the near future, a government official said.

Some experts say the two countries could form an anti-American front while exchanging oil for missiles. A former U.S. Army officer said missile technology was a likely tradable good. He quipped the North “is unlikely to export Kimchi,” Korea’s traditional pickled side dish.

The Venezuelan government has been boosting its military strength lately, buying 100,000 Russian-made AK-103 rifles along with a license to manufacture them and expressing interest in buying Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets. Chavez has said he wants to buy more weapons to repel a U.S. invasion.

[whottt]

I can't believe you fucking idiots cheer this guy...

[whottt]

I bet you lefties really belive Chavez line of BS about building up his military to repel a US invasion too...

I know the morons that support him do.

He's doing it so he can militarily sqush dissent in his own and neighboring countries.

We wouldn't invade Venezuela to get Chavez, we'd assasinate him.


Chavez plans on being around for a long time...

And like every other leftist regime...

It'll wind up the ultimate indivualist self suckoff and exercise in megalomania...

He'll have pictures of himself plastered all over the country and any questioning of his judgement and authority will result in imprisonment or death...

Good bye Free Press and other subversive influences, soon will come the locking of his own people within...because they don't know what's good for them, and he does...what's good for them is to be one of the many...........under him and him alone. And they are a selfish pig if they don't agree with that.

He'll get outraged that anyone could question him after all the good he did for his country...he built a few fucking schools, and everyone knows, you can't do that unless you have a socialist govt and nationalize all the industry.

Like leftist Saddam
Like leftist Kim Jong Il
Like leftist Castro
Like leftist Mao and Stalin.


America has no love of dicators, but if given the choice between two of them, of course we are going to support the one with the less hostile ideology and who at least attempt to pay lipservice to Democracy and freedom....

America's job is to act in it's own benefit first...not that of the out of power party in every inherently fucked polarized political landscape in the world.

[BIG IRISH]

SO what are old Chavez' plans for after he leaves office...I'd be interested in seeing this...

I understand he has bought a lot of land in Paraguay, next door to the land GWB recently bought. :lol

[smeagol]

First of all, P&G you are dishonest. One of every two posts of yours says I support Videla when what I said was that he had to fight against the communists, and that is what I supported (and 75% of my countrymen supported that too, even though now a days it's cool to say you were always against the Junta and the 1976 coup).

The situation in Argentina in the early 1970 was chaotic, with the extreme leftist terrorists, financed by Castro and the Soviets, trying to take over power through violent means. The innoperant Peronist elected government was unable to stop the violence, until the entire spectrum of political parties and the majority of the population begged the military to take over.

The military faught a war against these bands of assassins using the same tactics the guerrillas used. They kidnaped, tortured and killed the Montoneros but unfortunately, they also killed innocent people.

Do I apporve of the killing of innocent people? Of course not! But I do approve of killing the terrorists who were trying to kill me and change the country's way of life.



I am Latino, but no I'm not Argentinean.

You are Latino? What the fuck does that mean? Where were you born/what country are you citizen of? That is the question you should answer. Are you American? Mexican? From El Salvador? Venezuelan? Cuban?


But I sure do know a lot about the history of Argentina though.

Enlighten me. I bet you I know more.

All you have proven up until now is that you know the name Videla and that you seem to side with Montoneros.


I know many people that have had many of their relatives just disappear into the night. And yet this asshole still supports them.

And I know a lot of people who had there loved ones killed by Montoneros, the band of thieves you support. You see asshole, it goes both ways. The Montoners murdered my neighbor in front of their familiy in 1972, because he was a politician. So go fuck yourself with you accusations of me supporting Videla when you seem to be supporting the terrorists (although you are such a yellow coward you still have not spelled where with whom your alligiences are).


Talk about the understatement of the millennium. Went overboard? Tell that to the Madres De Plaza De Mayo. It's a lot more than overboard asshole.

They were fighting a "dirty" war and used the same tactics their opponent used (which was wrong because they represented the State, their opponents represented chaos). Madres de Plaza de Mayo has become a meaningless political force, not what they used to stand for. Now they spend their time inviting Chavez to rally the left against Bush.


Point blank anybody that supports what Pinochet and Videla did is a fucking scumbag piece of shit and deserves the same fate of what happened to those people.

Point blank, anybody that supports the people that Pinochet and Videla were fighting against, and is comfortably sitting in a room in SoCal, drinking a beer and watching the latest Laker loss, is a fucking hypocrite piece of shit with no guts whatsoever. Get your yellow ass to Cuba or Venezuela, if you love communism so much. But don't come and tell me who or what I should support when it comes to my country, when you know only one side of the story: the red side.

[whottt]

PWNT!

Smeagol for Argie Pres(but only since Manu's busy).

[Phenomanul]

It's a process. This shit is not instantaneous. The Misiones Bolivarianas are reforms that have been put in place by Chavez. They are reforms in education, health care, housing, helping the kids on the street, etc. There's so many of them and they are for the betterment of the country as a whole. So please don't act like Chavez just gives money away and doesn't teach people to 'fish for themselves'. That's just wrong and not true. Social services are not handouts.


It's only a facade he puts up to remain in POWER.... cause again, that's all he cares about.

[whottt]

I dsiagree Phenomanul...


Chavez cares for the poor, he doesn't want them to be lonely, so he's going to make sure everyone in Venezuela is poor. Indoctrinated...er I mean educated, but poor.



And then he's going to reward himself for solving Venzuela's problems by controlling all the wealth and appointing himself leader for life.

[smeagol]

smeagol your a typical South American/European elitist asshole that supported the genocide of the indigenous people of his own country.

Ha Ha Ha! You claim to know Argentine history? Go read the part about indiginous people again. You might be confused with Peru or Mexico, where there were real genocides.


Your the worst type of scum.

It's you're dumbfuck.


The fact that you support what Videla and Pinochet did shows who you really are.

There you go again, lying bastard. You try to make it sound as if I support the killing of innocent people while what I said is that I supported the war against communist groups. But hey, this is what the leftists are good at. Lying. Because when it comes to excercising power by for example, ruling a country, you fucking suck balls.


I know my history, you might be able to try and twist it for those that don't know, but that won't work with me.

You've proven to know shit.



I don't agree with everything Chavez stands for, but there are many things he has done that are great for his people.

If I have money and I give it away, I too can make people happy. That is not what governing is about.


At least he's trying and not oppressing the poor people for only the betterment of the few elite. Something that I know you support.

You know shit of what I support. I don't support Chavez, that is for sure. And I don't support the Montoneros, FAR, Tupac Amaru, Sendero Luminoso, Sandinistas and other 70s terrorists bands. You seem to be ok with them and against the people who fought against them.


He is educating the people, you talk shit, only because he is redistributing the wealth.

Redistributing the wealth? What a stupid leftist talking point. What about empowering and enriching the poor? What about social mobility through stable economic conditions? Dude, I want LatAm to be like the US, Autralia, Europe, Japan, NZ . . . not like Cuba, NK, Nigeria, Iran. I want LatAm to follow Chile . . . not fucking Chavez "El Bolivariano".


You know nothing about me and have no idea who I support.

I have a good idea. But enlighten us, dipshit.


But yet you bring up Stalin and Mao. Laughable. Only an ignorant elitist asshole thinks in extremes.

Until you tell me what you stand for, I will continue to believe you pray at Lenin, Stalin and Mao's altar (and their successors, Castro, Il and fucking Chavez).


Fuck you. I'm glad people like you and your line of thinking are losing their grip on Latin America.

My line of thinking never ever had a grip on LatAm, moron. LatAm would be a different place if the stuff I believe would be put into place.

Actually, let me rephrase. My line of thinking was alive and kicking in Argentina between 1880 and 1920. Argentina was a top 10 economy then. Our GDP was larger than Spain and Italy's combined. In other words, a rich country full of prospects and a bright future.

You know what happened? Socialism happened. Peron happened. The people who think like you happened. And now Argentina is a shithole. Thanks buddy, to you and "your line of thinking". Thanks for fucking my country with populist, totalitarian, "big governemnt" type of economic policies which have drown and nearly killed private enterprise and entrepreneurship in Argentina.

Thanks for years of currupt governemtns which have bred corrupt businessmen, corrupt unions, corrupt lawyers, corrupt policemen.

Thanks for believing the state should level the playing field down to its lowest common denominator and fuck the free spirit of its population.

Great job, faker fan.

[Purple & Gold]

So let me spell this out for smeagol one last time. This is where it started.

Chavez is nowhere near a dictator or a totalitarian compared to Videla and Pinochet.

Chavez is much worse than Pinochet. Pinochet at least paved the road for Chile to become what it is. And Videla had to fight against communist terrorism.
So what is it smeagol: You either...

1. Are lying about what Chavez has done.

or

2. Are trivializing what has happened in the past in Argentina and Chile.

So which is it smeagol? Unless you just mispoke and don't really think he is worse then them. Or is it OK that they did it because they weren't socialists.

[Purple & Gold]

Ha Ha Ha! You claim to know Argentine history? Go read the part about indiginous people again. You might be confused with Peru or Mexico, where there were real genocides.
Are you trying to rewrite history now? It has happened in many countries not just Argentina. But don't try to act like it didn't happen in Argentina.

There you go again, lying bastard. You try to make it sound as if I support the killing of innocent people while what I said is that I supported the war against communist groups. But hey, this is what the leftists are good at. Lying. Because when it comes to excercising power by for example, ruling a country, you fucking suck balls.
See my other post above.

If I have money and I give it away, I too can make people happy. That is not what governing is about.
Continue to ignore what Chavez has done. See my other post regarding the Misiones Bolivarianas. And feel free to do your own research.

You know shit of what I support. I don't support Chavez, that is for sure. And I don't support the Montoneros, FAR, Tupac Amaru, Sendero Luminoso, Sandinistas and other 70s terrorists bands. You seem to be ok with them and against the people who fought against them.
Keep assuming... It's the only thing you and your friend whottt are good at.

Redistributing the wealth? What a stupid leftist talking point. What about empowering and enriching the poor? What about social mobility through stable economic conditions? Dude, I want LatAm to be like the US, Autralia, Europe, Japan, NZ . . . not like Cuba, NK, Nigeria, Iran. I want LatAm to follow Chile . . . not fucking Chavez "El Bolivariano".
Oh yeah I forgot how fair it is in Latin America, and how easy it is to succeed. I mean everybody has a level playing field. And Chile is not all that they also have a lot of problems. Maybe you should aim a little higher.

Until you tell me what you stand for, I will continue to believe you pray at Lenin, Stalin and Mao's altar (and their successors, Castro, Il and fucking Chavez).
And you would be wrong.

My line of thinking never ever had a grip on LatAm, moron. LatAm would be a different place if the stuff I believe would be put into place.

Actually, let me rephrase. My line of thinking was alive and kicking in Argentina between 1880 and 1920. Argentina was a top 10 economy then. Our GDP was larger than Spain and Italy's combined. In other words, a rich country full of prospects and a bright future.

You know what happened? Socialism happened. Peron happened. The people who think like you happened. And now Argentina is a shithole. Thanks buddy, to you and "your line of thinking". Thanks for fucking my country with populist, totalitarian, "big governemnt" type of economic policies which have drown and nearly killed private enterprise and entrepreneurship in Argentina.

Thanks for years of currupt governemtns which have bred corrupt businessmen, corrupt unions, corrupt lawyers, corrupt policemen.

Thanks for believing the state should level the playing field down to its lowest common denominator and fuck the free spirit of its population.

Great job, faker fan.
Are you done yet? Did you get that out of your system? Argentina is where it's at now because of what you and people who think like you allowed to happen. You turned a blind eye while crimes against humanity were happening. Instead of denying and romanticizing what has happened in the past why don't you look in the mirror and take a good look at yourself. You are the reason why Argentina is in the state it's in.

[Purple & Gold]

It's only a facade he puts up to remain in POWER.... cause again, that's all he cares about.
Wow you're pretty good at seeing through peoples actions and knowing their true intent. Maybe you should get a job at the circus or a carnival, I'm sure you could make a lot of money with your skill.

[Purple & Gold]

Well I can read your views and other than the wrench you threw on Iraq support...

You just simply hate the rich...and you seek not to become rich yourself, but to prevent others from doing so.

You are definitely a socialist of the purest kind...hold the fastest horse back, rather than try to catch him by becoming faster.

One way moves backwards...and the other way is always trying to improve.
Are you done assuming things? Why don't you respond to what I post and not what you think I believe. You wouldn't look so stupid if you did that.

[Purple & Gold]

Even the name of the SportsTeam you root for brands you as a hypocrite...

The Richest, the biggest....


You should be a Magic fan...but no, you have absolutely no problem with LA financially strongarming Orlando to get Shaq, do you?
Now here's the true meaning of irony. The Lakers are in the NBA, which has a salary cap. A true socialist form of economics. But yet you support the Spurs and in turn the NBA. So now who's the hypocrite.

[smeagol]

Are you done yet? Did you get that out of your system? Argentina is where it's at now because of what you and people who think like you allowed to happen. You turned a blind eye while crimes against humanity were happening. Instead of denying and romanticizing what has happened in the past why don't you look in the mirror and take a good look at yourself. You are the reason why Argentina is in the state it's in.
Argentina is where it's at because of socialist/totalitarian regimes that had nothing to do with what I stand for.

I did not turn a blind eye while crimes where happening. I was very vocal when Montoneros where kidnaping and killing innocent people. Where were you?

[smeagol]

Wow you're pretty good at seeing through peoples actions and knowing their true intent. Maybe you should get a job at the circus or a carnival, I'm sure you could make a lot of money with your skill.
Talk about adding value to the discussion :rolleyes

[smeagol]

By the way, Chile is by far the most successfull LatAm country. Before aiming to be Australia, I would like my country to aim for something closer to home. Chile.

And yes, Pinochet helped turn Chile into what it is. Weather your communist heart likes it or not.

By the way, do you know how many people Castro and his regime have murdered? Do you know how many are rotting in Cuban cels simply for disenting with that sack of shit and his communis regime? And your boy Chavez admires the bearded dictator.

You, Chavez and Castro want to make me puke.

Fuck you and while you are at it, get the fuck out of America and go to live your socialist dream to Venezuela, coward.

[smeagol]

Your a fucking idiot whottt. Everybody on this board owns you. Your such a hypocrite it's sad. I've met your type before, I know you have never and will never do anything positive and amount to anything. Please do us all a favor and lock yourself in a cave till you come out enlightened.
:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

[smeagol]

I supported going to war for breaking a treaty. I support using the U.N. (which was entirely on our side) to pressure all dictators out of office.

So you support the UN pressuring Castro out of office too?

No? . . . I didn't think so.

[smeagol]

So you think it's OK to support leaders like Videla and Pinochet? Cause that's exactly what happened.

Shit it doesn't get any more extreme than those two.
Stupid, stupid, stupid Laker fan.

I said I supported Videla fighting the communists. I said Pinochet paved the way for Chile's development. Those are facts. Historical facts. You might want to deny them, but this is because you are stupid and ignorant and know shit about Argentina and Chile.

You are the one who started twisting the truth about my posts since you stepped into this thread.

[smeagol]

smeagol is a fucking asshole, look at who he supported..

Again, no arguments so you turn to lies. A true socialist at it's best.



You bring nothing.

Funny you mention that 'cause you bring little yourself.

[smeagol]

So let me spell this out for smeagol one last time. This is where it started.


So what is it smeagol: You either...

1. Are lying about what Chavez has done.

or

2. Are trivializing what has happened in the past in Argentina and Chile.

So which is it smeagol? Unless you just mispoke and don't really think he is worse then them. Or is it OK that they did it because they weren't socialists.

I'm not trivializing anything, SoCal moron.

Argentina in the 70s was at war with a band of 25,000 montoneros who were trying to overthrough the Argentine governemnt through violence and trying to turn my country into a second Cuba. Can you get that through your thick, retarded brain?

The entire spectrum of political forces begged, and I mean fucking begged the military to take over a situation which was out of control. The military committed excesses, the same way the US Army commits excesses in Iraq. It was a fucking war!

I'll tell you one thing which is another historical fact about my country, which you obviously don't know. If the Montoneros/FAR/FAP and other communist lunatics would not have armed themselves and attacked the institutions of my country, the military would've never siezed power, no coup, no 3-24-1976, no missing, no tortures . . . none of that shit. But the communists of the 70s were not content with Cuba. Che Guevara (fucking assasin may he rot in Hell) wanted to export the communist utopia to other LatAm countries. So thank the 30,000 missing (which are nowhere near 30,000) to Castro and Che Guevara. Instead of blaming Videla, blame the people who started the war, the kidnappings, the human rights violations. Blame Firmenich, Vaca Narvaja, Santucho, Perdia, Walsh. Blame those motherfuckers who killed or caused the death of thousands.

[smeagol]

PWNT!

Smeagol for Argie Pres(but only since Manu's busy).
Dude, I told you that when I discuss American politics, I may look and sound like a liberal. But in my country, I'm as far from the left as I can be.

[ponky]

You see why I support W now?

You see?

Because the alternative was her fucking candidate, who thinks just like her...

Notice how she said "turning left" like...she wasn't alive in the 20th century or something, or doesn't seem to be aware of Brazil's 20th century existence...seems to think Cuba is a wonderful place to live(probably blames America for Cuba's problems like the rest of the douchebag lefties).

Still want to tell me my political views are fucked up?


These fuckers scare the shit out of me...

Why not move to Cuba? I just don't get it. Cuba will let her come...it's the leaving that's the tricky part.

She cheers a government mindset of denying individual freedoms...throwing a blanket of ignorance over the heads of it's citizenry.

I mean if she hates being able to use her PC to give her opinion so much...why does she do it? Why not just throw her PC away?

I'm telling you, these fuckers are stupid.


I consider them the enemy because they want to steal my right to freedom...nbadan, boutons, these are scary fucking people.


:lol :lol :lol because my native land is here and has been since before you guys arrived...anyway, giuliani got chavez-pwned, fucking hilarious

[ponky]

whott why do you even talk shit? anyone with a chili bowl haircut should just stfu when it comes to telling other people they're stupid (i've seen those GT pics)

[Purple & Gold]

So you support the UN pressuring Castro out of office too?

No? . . . I didn't think so.
Actually yes I would. There are many things that he has done that I don't support.

[Purple & Gold]

I did not turn a blind eye while crimes where happening. I was very vocal when Montoneros where kidnaping and killing innocent people. Where were you?
And where were you when Videla's government was kidnapping and killing innocent people. Were you still vocal?

I was to young to say and do anything. People my age in your country were depending on your help. You let them down.

[Purple & Gold]

By the way, Chile is by far the most successfull LatAm country. Before aiming to be Australia, I would like my country to aim for something closer to home. Chile.

And yes, Pinochet helped turn Chile into what it is. Weather your communist heart likes it or not.

By the way, do you know how many people Castro and his regime have murdered? Do you know how many are rotting in Cuban cels simply for disenting with that sack of shit and his communis regime? And your boy Chavez admires the bearded dictator.

You, Chavez and Castro want to make me puke.

Fuck you and while you are at it, get the fuck out of America and go to live your socialist dream to Venezuela, coward.
Honestly you should just STFU because if any Chileans read this shit they would be fucking pissed off. And no I don't support Castro. LMAO at you telling me to get out of America. I have contributed way more to the U.S. than many of your friends on this board have or ever will. You might want to tell them to put up or shut up. And I'm not quiet when I see injustices and human rights violations. You should have taken a cue from that.

[Purple & Gold]

I said I supported Videla fighting the communists. I said Pinochet paved the way for Chile's development. Those are facts. Historical facts. You might want to deny them, but this is because you are stupid and ignorant and know shit about Argentina and Chile.

You are the one who started twisting the truth about my posts since you stepped into this thread.
First off this wasn't addressed to you. So I never asked you this question. And as I said before you might want to STFU because you sound like a right-wing nut that supports murderers.

[Purple & Gold]

I'm not trivializing anything, SoCal moron.
:blah :blah yadda yadda blah blah blah

Ohhh I know the history you don't have to try and give me a lesson. You do nothing but distort it anyways.

So as I asked you before. Were you lying about what Chavez has done? Were you trivializing what happened in Argentina and Chile? Or did you just misspeak?

[whottt]

:lol :lol :lol because my native land is here and has been since before you guys arrived.

It is? Which part? I'd be interested in more details on this...


And then after we do that, you can explain to me why you think that gives you an excuse to be stupid...



.anyway, giuliani got chavez-pwned, fucking hilarious


Assuming that's true...since you are a Chavez supporter, doesn't that make you a Guilianni supporter as well?

[whottt]

whott why do you even talk shit? anyone with a chili bowl haircut should just stfu when it comes to telling other people they're stupid (i've seen those GT pics)


Why should I? You don't let having a stupid opinion keep you from posting yours...

[whottt]

Now here's the true meaning of irony. The Lakers are in the NBA, which has a salary cap. A true socialist form of economics. But yet you support the Spurs and in turn the NBA. So now who's the hypocrite.


There's nothing socialist really about the NBA's salary cap...I'd say it's a pretty good example social programs within a Capitalist framework via taxation at best...not an example of socialism.

There's no hard cap in place to keep the teams from spending money. If they truly desire to do so, they can(See Knicks, NY).


The Spurs are a poor team(allegedly), not a communist one...there's nothing wrong with being poor, only something wrong with viewing communism and socialism as the solution. See..every time it has been tried as an example.



The NFL Cap is a better example of socialism...and it sucks, and the NFL has not continued to grow in popularity at the rate it was doing prior to the cap. I'd say the hard cap in the NFL hurts teams...

[smeagol]

And where were you when Videla's government was kidnapping and killing innocent people. Were you still vocal?

You make it sound as if Videla and the other generals woke up one day and decided to kidnap inocent people. And you also must be deaf or illiterate because I said in more than one occasion . . . WHAT WAS GOING ON IN ARGENTINA WAS A WAR (block letters might help you here). 75% of the population begged Videla to take power. Why the fuck do you keep dismissing these facts? They committed excesses, no question about. I never trivialized this historical truth. But they were in the middle of a war (a) they did not start, (b) they were asked to help, and (c) the enemy was even bloodier than the military.

Go and ask you Argentine friends which have missing relatives (the hundreds you claim to know) who Firmenich was and how many people he kidnapped and killed. Find about who Pedro Aramburu was and how this criminal murdered him and then wrote a book about it.

And another thing that pisses me off: these fucking terrorists, the ones that unlikely survived, keep living their lives as if nothing happened and never repented of what they did. Some of them are even part of the current Argentine governemnt. The military, OTOH, did a mea culpa.

Those Montoneros and their supporters are dispicable.

And I do not see you as appaled with them as you are with Videla. Very telling.


I was to young to say and do anything. People my age in your country were depending on your help. You let them down.

It's pretty clear you have no clue what happened in my country in the 70s. You were too young to live through it and you have only heard the communist's POV. Read about it, inform yourselve and come back. Till then, STFU.

[smeagol]

Honestly you should just STFU because if any Chileans read this shit they would be fucking pissed off.

Again you show your lack of knowledge about LatAm history, you ignorant fuck. You probably spoke to a few communist Chileans who spoonfed you their side of the story, which is always distorted with lies.

Pinochet's candidate in 1988, Buchi, when democracy was reinstalled in Chile, had more than 40% of the popular vote. Yeah, those Chileans sure do hate Pinochet :rolleyes

The entire country of Chile was up in arms when the Brits put Pinochet in jail in 1999 (except a few thousand comunistas) at the request of Baltazar Garzon, another politically motivated Spanish prosecutor.

So don't worry, most of the Chileans that read what I write would agree with me, even if they don't like Pinochet. Why? Because it's the truth. Pinochet left a country which was on it's way to being what it is today: the most stable and fastest growing economy in Latin America, with the most private sector investment and the less corrupt. Can you imagine where Chile would be if Allende would've stayed in power? Probably not because you do not even know who Allende is.


And no I don't support Castro.

You sure do support people who support Castro, i.e. Chavez.


LMAO at you telling me to get out of America. I have contributed way more to the U.S. than many of your friends on this board have or ever will.

Prove it. All you have proven up to now is that you like Chavez, a blatant enemy of the US. Where do you stand on the Iranian president? Because Chavez loves that idiot too.


And I'm not quiet when I see injustices and human rights violations. You should have taken a cue from that.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

You are so full of shit!

Cuba and Venezuela are full of human right violations. 6 pages of this thread (and counting) and never once have you condemned them.

You are a fucking stooge.

[smeagol]

First off this wasn't addressed to you. So I never asked you this question. And as I said before you might want to STFU because you sound like a right-wing nut that supports murderers.
I sure don't care how you think I sound. I said many times I did not support murders of innocent people.

You, OTOH, support a guy who wants to rule Venezuela for the next 20 years, and in the process destroiy the country the same way Castro destroyed Cuba.

[smeagol]

Actually yes I would. There are many things that he has done that I don't support.
Name them.

And also name what you support of his regime.

[Purple & Gold]

OK smeagol since you continue to duck the question.

Were you lying about Chavez? Trivializing what happened in the past? Or did you just misspeak?

So how exactly is Chavez worse than these dictators? What human rights violations has Chavez done? If he has I would definitely want to know about it. It will definitely change my opinion of him.

Also I laugh at how you think the only people that disagree with what Videla and Pinochet did have been fed communist talking points. I know you think the ends justify the means, but come on now.

[Purple & Gold]

There's nothing socialist really about the NBA's salary cap...I'd say it's a pretty good example social programs within a Capitalist framework via taxation at best...not an example of socialism.

There's no hard cap in place to keep the teams from spending money. If they truly desire to do so, they can(See Knicks, NY).


The Spurs are a poor team(allegedly), not a communist one...there's nothing wrong with being poor, only something wrong with viewing communism and socialism as the solution. See..every time it has been tried as an example.



The NFL Cap is a better example of socialism...and it sucks, and the NFL has not continued to grow in popularity at the rate it was doing prior to the cap. I'd say the hard cap in the NFL hurts teams...
And yes the NBA salary cap is socialist. There are many different forms of socialism. There is not only one form of it. The NFL is stricter, but the NBA is a form of socialism.

[Purple & Gold]

Those Montoneros and their supporters are dispicable.

And I do not see you as appaled with them as you are with Videla. Very telling.

And yes I agree with you about the Montoneros and their supporters. As for why I haven't condemned them like I have Videla, it's because nobody is over here supporting them. If someone was I'd talk the same amount of shit.

[johnsmith]

I'd like to once again visit the following post made by P&G:




Honestly I really don't care to answer anything from this asshole. I have no time for him.



Seems to me that you can't stay away from Smeagol.

[Purple & Gold]

I'd like to once again visit the following post made by P&G:

Seems to me that you can't stay away from Smeagol.
Yes I really don't have any time for him, but I'm not gonna sit back and let him lie to you guys and not call him out on his bullshit. I'm just here exposing him for what he really is.

[Phenomanul]

Yes I really don't have any time for him, but I'm not gonna sit back and let him lie to you guys and not call him out on his bullshit. I'm just here exposing him for what he really is.

His credibility on the subject.... is... I'm sorry to say...... Much, much more valid than yours since he actually experienced the turmoil first hand.

You and him may not agree on many things but to say that smeagol is lying about events that are supported by most historical accounts... is just way off base.

He actually condemned all violent acts against innocent civilians no matter the perpetrators but understands that some of it was needed to bring about the change. He also acknowledged that the military regimes were corrupt as well. What more do you want him to say?

Furthermore, we all understand that no government is perfect. But a governing body will always be inherently flawed when led at the whims of any one individual (aka a dictator) - and you seem to imply that this is a much better solution. Half of us disagree. Of course, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but if you really feel that our democratic free-enterprise system is less ideal than a socialistic one then you really ought to consider living under said governing state. Talking from the outside won't give you the credibility you seek on the matter... and doing so ends up exposing you as a fraud.

[Purple & Gold]

His credibility on the subject.... is... I'm sorry to say...... Much, much more valid than yours since he actually experienced the turmoil first hand.
So if somebody lived through something that means they are automatically right and have the most valid opinion? I didn't realize that 100% of the population that live through the same events agree. I know many people that also lived through it, and their views are like night and day with those of smeagol.

You and him may not agree on many things but to say that smeagol is lying about events that are supported by most historical accounts... is just way off base.
What history accounts support his opinion?

He actually condemned all violent acts against innocent civilians no matter the perpetrators but understands that some of it was needed to bring about the change. He also acknowledged that the military regimes were corrupt as well.
Well that's where we see differently, I don't believe "some of it was needed to bring about the change." I don't believe in the ends justify the means. The worst part about it is that he is now reflecting on it in the past tense. If it was during the time, were fear and killings were the norm, I would understand a lot more. Now that this is in the past there is no fear of being killed for dissension, but yet he continues to make excuses and rationalize what happened. That IMO is very dangerous and is something that should not be tolerated.

What more do you want him to say?
What more do I want him to say? I've asked him a very simple question on how Chavez is worse of a dictator. If he can explain to me how he is worse of a dictator and back up that statement then I would leave him alone. I would even change my opinion on Chavez. But the standard he's a socialist that's why he is won't work.

Furthermore, we all understand that no government is perfect. But a governing body will always be inherently flawed when led at the whims of any one individual (aka a dictator) - and you seem to imply that this is a much better solution. Half of us disagree. Of course, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but if you really feel that our democratic free-enterprise system is less ideal than a socialistic one then you really ought to consider living under said governing state. Talking from the outside won't give you the credibility you seek on the matter... and doing so ends up exposing you as a fraud.
I do not believe in a total socialist government. I believe there needs to be a balance. The thing with Venezuela, as with many Latin American countries, is that it was so skewed to the right that something drastic was needed. The poor have been oppressed for way too long, and not in the regular fashion that somebody from the United States would understand. That is the reason why these people are getting elected. Now the difference with Chavez and the other dictators we have been speaking about is that I have not heard of any human rights violations. If I am wrong about that, then I will admit that I was wrong about my opinion of him. And to let you know, I have lived in countries that you would consider socialist. Not to the extent of a Cuba or China, but I do actually have some first hand knowledge.

[smeagol]

OK smeagol since you continue to duck the question.

Were you lying about Chavez? Trivializing what happened in the past? Or did you just misspeak?

None of the above.


So how exactly is Chavez worse than these dictators?

Both Pinochet and Videla rose to power because of one reason: to fight communism. They are the direct result of the people rising against a national threat that jeopardized the fabric of their societies.

In the case of Pinochet, the human rights violations were very small. And again, Pinochet helped the Chile's insertion into the world (something most of LatAm is far from achieving).

In the case of Videla, the human rights violations were many more than in the case of Pinochet, but as I have said many times, Argentina was going through a war.

Let me ask you a question: is Bush worst than Chavez because there are abuses and human rights violations in Iraq and Gitmo?


What human rights violations has Chavez done? If he has I would definitely want to know about it. It will definitely change my opinion of him.

There are many human rights violation in Venezuela. Opposition candidates are being encacerated for no reason, there is no freedom of press, the opposition lives in fear because Chavez' mobs can attack you an minute, there is no separation of powers, Congress and the judiciary branch are totally controled by Chavez.



Also I laugh at how you think the only people that disagree with what Videla and Pinochet did have been fed communist talking points.

Not sure why you find the truth funny.


I know you think the ends justify the means, but come on now.

Huh? This is an empty phrase which, in the context of a complex civil war, means nothing.

[smeagol]

And yes I agree with you about the Montoneros and their supporters. As for why I haven't condemned them like I have Videla, it's because nobody is over here supporting them. If someone was I'd talk the same amount of shit.
So you know many people who had their relatives/friends abducted by the Junta/AAA and these "friends" of yours don't support Montoneros?

So these guys simply happened to be walking by and they were kidnapped by the military for no apparent reason? They had no connection or sympathy for Montoneros?

I think I have to call bullshit on your relation with these relatives of missing people.

People who went missing in the 70s were not regular joes. Most were terrorists but some were simply Montonero sympathiers and innocent until proven guilty. These guys, until this very day, continue to support Montoneros. It's hard to believe you know them and they never told you what their political affiliation is.

[smeagol]

Yes I really don't have any time for him, but I'm not gonna sit back and let him lie to you guys and not call him out on his bullshit. I'm just here exposing him for what he really is.
I haven't told a single lie and you are not exposing me. Every regular ST poster knows who I am.

Your story, on the other hand, has many holes, junior.

[smeagol]

I do not believe in a total socialist government. I believe there needs to be a balance.

You believe in the American political and economic way of life then?



The thing with Venezuela, as with many Latin American countries, is that it was so skewed to the right that something drastic was needed.

How the fuck can you claim to know LatAm history and make this blatantly false statement? I already told you in a prior post all the LatAm leftist governments. Please tell me all the right wing governemts (economic wise, not political wise).



The poor have been oppressed for way too long,

The poor have been oppressed because of corruption and lack of liberal economic measures, such as the ones implemented in Chile where poverty is at the lowest level of any LatAm country. This is exactly the opposit to what you and Chavez want for LatAm.


That is the reason why these people are getting elected.

The reason Chavez got elected is corruption. Carlos Andres Perez was a crook.


Now the difference with Chavez and the other dictators we have been speaking about is that I have not heard of any human rights violations.

Again, because you kow shit about LatAm.



And to let you know, I have lived in countries that you would consider socialist. Not to the extent of a Cuba or China, but I do actually have some first hand knowledge.

Which countries and how enriching was living in them?

[whottt]

smeagol...this guys a douche. If the fact that he thinks socialism is a good form of government doesn't reveal this...

The fact that he thinks the NBA is socialist should leave you beyond all doubt...not to mention him lecutring you on the stife of Argentines when he's never even lived there.


Douche
Bag

Doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, and neither does any other Chavez supporter.


Isn't it funny how it's people that trust the government the least always seem to want a govt in which the govt has absolute power?

They're like moths flying to the flame.

I know people that have lived in Cuba, China and the Soviet Union...and just about all of them have told me, it sucked, and what a huge lie everything is...


The Chinese guy I know will never see his wife and kids again unless he gets them out of China...and that's going to cost him roughly around a hundred and fifty grand(and he's a cook). He's got some nice stories about life in China...he'd rather be dead than go back.


That's the kind of illegal immigrant I want to see more of....


In case you haven't noticed...the biggest fans of socialism are ones that have never lived under it...

That's why I advocate they do.

[whottt]

And there two types P&G...

New ones, and military dictatorships. They all becomes military dictatorships...because they suck ass and no wants to live under one of them.

They lock their people in because everyone would fucking leave if they didn't, because it fucking suck...how hard is this to figure?

[velik_m]

Chavez is an idiot.

His plan in general is not that bad - use Venezuela's natural resources to improve social status of his people and Venezuela's position in the world. However his execution sucks. His bitching about USA has gotten tiring long ago, and while it's fun to see someone bash america on the big stage (like UN), it does his country and his people no good. Plus his rants while amusing to commoners are insulting for anyone intelligent (I take Castro over him anyday), and at the end of day who do you want on your side?
Which brings us to his choice of allies, which is mildly put - pathetic. You can't buy friends (ask USA) and "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a poor tactics too. Alliances with conditions or based on common enemy never last, and typicly desolve at the time you need them most.
The long term results of his domestic politics will be evalueted by histroy, but it is my feeling that his programs are terribly ineffective.
The final point is his sincerity - as whottt pointed out, he's in charge there for a long time and doesn't look like he has any plans of stepping down. Smells like a dictatorship - or at least a desire for it - to me (although closer to milosevic than Saddam). A trully great man doesn't seize power he walks away from it. Chavez is not a great man, he's just a loudmouth.

As for socialism - it would be a great system... if it weren't for the people. You see people are selfish and any system that is trying to base himself on solidarity of people, is going to colapse. Socialism should remain what it is - a never achievable ideal that each individual should strive for. You should not try to force it on a person or a society, it won't work and forcing something on someone never brings any good.

E viva il communismo e la liberta! :p:

[whottt]

Socialism is the ultimate form of selfishness...

It takes from others completely.

And that's right it fails, because everyone starts wanting a little bit more...corruption and socialism go hand in hand...and usually it's the biggest advocates and leaders that end up becoming corrupt.

Socialism is the Catholic Priest of Governments.


And it fails, not because humans are selfish, but because they are built to compete.


Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

And those that don't want to compete genrally don't want to work...so what ends up happening is the only ones carrying the weight in a Socialist Society are those that want no part of it. And even it's staunches advocates are the most competive...so in time they will change as well.



It sucks...I don't want to be a communal creature...I'm not a fucking ant. I want to do what the fuck I want to do and who is to say I am wrong for doing that, so long as I don't hurt anyone?

Who appointed Karl Marx my judge and jury?


Why should someone that doesn't work as hard as I do have the same status?


And all Chavez has done is fucked Venezuela's economy.


And Velik...the US isn't particularly worried about friends at this juncture, we are more concerned with a hostile ideology...why do you think we re-elected W?

[mookie2001]

so just because we dont know shit about latin america means we cant have an opinion??

[mookie2001]

lets change the subject to something we can all agree on, the 911 commission report

[whottt]

so just because we dont know shit about latin america means we cant have an opinion??


I'd say if you didn't vote for Bush in the last election you can't have an opinion :smokin

[Nbadan]

And all Chavez has done is fucked Venezuela's economy.

:rolleyes


Chavez's economic average yearly growth rate is at least twice Dubya's.

[Nbadan]

Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

There is only one race, the human race. It's people like Whott who make the utopian dream of Socialism not possible. Some people simply think that for whatever reason, they are better than other people and deserving more. Economically, socialism doesn't work because there is no set structure of supply and demand, so there can be wide price and supply fluctuations.

[Nbadan]

I don't want to be a communal creature

That's exactly where years of FED policy of easy money is taking us though. There are millions of families at risk of home foreclosure. There will be thousands of homes, once the over-burden of some unlucky smuck, that will sit empty. It's not hard to do the math.

[smeagol]

:rolleyes


Chavez's economic average yearly growth rate is at least twice Dubya's.
Great, Dan is in the mood of teaching us economics, something he knows nothing about.

First, Venezuela's economy has been extremely volatile this past 8 years given the uncertainty a character such as Chvez causes.

Here's the GDP growth:

1999 (7.2%)
2000 3.2%
2001 2.7%
2002 (8.9%)
2003 (9.2%)
2004 16.8%
2005 9.3%

As you can see, the fluctuations are so severe, measuremnts become almost meaningless.

Furthermore, trying to compare the GDP growth of a stable, developed economy such as the US' against the economy of an emerging market is plain stupid.

Hey Argentina has been growing at an average of 8% since 2002 . . . Argentina is kicking the US' but :rolleyes

[Nbadan]

Furthermore, trying to compare the GDP growth of a stable, developed economy such as the US' against the economy of an emerging market is plain stupid.

Were not comparing economic strength, we are comparing economic growth.

Who's prospects are better? Certainly not the U.S..

[smeagol]

Were not comparing economic strength, we are comparing economic growth.

You cannot compare GDP growth rates of two very different economies. It makes no sense, wether you know this or not (and you probably don't, even though you yap about economics frequently).


Who's prospects are better? Certainly not the U.S..

Are you telling me Venezuela or Argentina have better economic prospects than the US ?

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[whottt]

There is only one race, the human race.

Yawn..tell that to all the races.




It's people like Whott who make the utopian dream of Socialism not possible.


Yeap...guess what douche, I don't agree with that...

And you know why? Because I'm human.

We're not all a bunch of drones...clones with the exact same wants need desires and dreams.

That why it doesn't work, that's why it never will work, and that's why Socialism has to be forced on to people.

Which makes it un American.

And you know what?

No one is stopping you from being a socialist Dan...as a matter of fact, there quite a few socialist governments in dire need of citizens to regulate...

Go be one.

Stop trying to control those of us that don't want too...you dictator.





Some people simply think that for whatever reason, they are better than other people and deserving more.

Um...it's reality.

You take away all the illusions of civilization and guess what?

Person that works harder, that is smarter...is going to wind up with more 90% or the time.


It's called survival of the fittest and it is what is real in this world and if that battle isn't being won, than nothing else is going to be won either.

IE, equal rights, liberalism, a womans right not to be raped.


I don't think it's fair that bears can eat me...unfortunately, that's the way it fucking is..

I think life would be better if bears didn't want to eat me...unfortunately, it's not the way it is.


I'd also think life was better if there weren't Islamic fascists attempting to control me...with designs on nuking one of my cities...however, that isn't the case.

IF someone wants to punch you in the face...I'd be willing to be most people will defend themselves sooner or later...unless they are being that does not seek to survive.



Economically, socialism doesn't work because there is no set structure of supply and demand, so there can be wide price and supply fluctuations.

It doesn't work because it takes away the creativity of the individual, the drive to succeed...

You basically have someone telling you what to do and thinking for you.

If you know you are going to get the same as everyone else...why work hard?

Wouldn't a smart person then do as little work as possible?

It's not a progressive construct that does encourages growth, it encourages stagnation.


It sucks, it's lame, it's impossible to extricate from being forced and opressive...


Sorry Dan...you can't control everything and everyone...but you can go somewhere with like minded individuals(or trapped) and live that way to your hearts content...and leave everyone else the fuck alone to do what they want.


I don't need 20 million people living at the same level as me to survive...I can do that with a fishing rod...

Why do you?

[whottt]

If Chavez knew how to make money he wouldn't have had to steal it...


He doesn't...and the only thing I see him doing is throwing Venezuela's Oil around and squandering it...

Good thing he's got the money to build up Venezuela's military while his people are in need.


Venezuela is totally dependent on Petroleum and thanks to Chavez taking them Commie...it will be that way until he is gone.

And he's gonna need that military to stay in power...at the expense of his people.

[smeagol]

The funny thing is that Chavez tried to seize power through a failed coup in the mid nineties.

[xrayzebra]

Anyone read the paper this morning about his Brother taking over
education. He boasted about teaching the children about all the
values of socialism. What a guy!

[johnsmith]

That's exactly where years of FED policy of easy money is taking us though. There are millions of families at risk of home foreclosure. There will be thousands of homes, once the over-burden of some unlucky smuck, that will sit empty. It's not hard to do the math.


It's not the governments fault that people bought houses on adjustable interest rate loans. People were short-sided and thought the low interest rates would remain that way forever and never really move, that's not how interest rates work though.

They shouldn't have tried to live beyond their means.

[Purple & Gold]

Thanx for finally answering my question. But it seems you are a little dishonest or just believe what you believe.

In the case of Pinochet, the human rights violations were very small.
Sounds like you are trivializing it here.

In the case of Videla, the human rights violations were many more than in the case of Pinochet, but as I have said many times, Argentina was going through a war.
And again here.

Both Pinochet and Videla rose to power because of one reason: to fight communism. They are the direct result of the people rising against a national threat that jeopardized the fabric of their societies.
Sounds like you are saying it's OK because they were fighting communism.

And again, Pinochet helped the Chile's insertion into the world (something most of LatAm is far from achieving).
I don't believe in the ends justify the means.

Let me ask you a question: is Bush worst than Chavez because there are abuses and human rights violations in Iraq and Gitmo?
I would like to see Bush impeached and possibly tried for war crimes depending on what he knew, when he knew it, what he knowingly lied about, and who he had knowingly lie for him. If it comes out that General Powell's speech was based on what they knew were lies, then I believe he should be tried. I also believe that condoning and allowing torture, as well as disregarding the Geneva Convention are all actions that are worthy of being tried for.

There are many human rights violation in Venezuela. Opposition candidates are being encacerated for no reason, there is no freedom of press, the opposition lives in fear because Chavez' mobs can attack you an minute, there is no separation of powers, Congress and the judiciary branch are totally controled by Chavez.
And that is the reason I don't support Castro or a government like China's. (Which by the way is now being described by many as Capitalist Communism. I'm sure you know the difference between communism and socialism.) I will look more into Chavez and see if he is incarcerating his political opponents and sending mobs to quiet anybody that speaks against him. Freedom of Press is also something I believe strongly in, but be careful what you classify a crime against humanity, because it can also be argued that Bush is trying to control the press and the Judiciary Branch.

And here is a quote from Videla, "One becomes a terrorist not only by killing with a weapon or setting a bomb but also by encouraging others through ideas that go against our Western and Christian civilization".

Not sure why you find the truth funny.
Again your assertion of that is ridiculous.

Huh? This is an empty phrase which, in the context of a complex civil war, means nothing.
Again this is were we see differently and why you are trivializing what happened in the past.

[Purple & Gold]

People who went missing in the 70s were not regular joes. Most were terrorists but some were simply Montonero sympathiers and innocent until proven guilty.
Again smeagol you are trying to rewrite history. Many of them were innocent. And don't forget what happened with many babies during that time.

[Purple & Gold]

The fact that he thinks the NBA is socialist should leave you beyond all doubt...not to mention him lecutring you on the stife of Argentines when he's never even lived there.
Come on now whottt, you recognize that their are many different forms of capitalism, but yet you don't recognize that their are many different forms of socialism. :wtf

You do realize that you are not speaking to a common Argentine. You are speaking to one of their elitists.

[whottt]

I would like to see Bush impeached and possibly tried for war crimes depending on what he knew, when he knew it, what he knowingly lied about, and who he had knowingly lie for him.


If it comes out that General Powell's speech was based on what they knew were lies, then I believe he should be tried.


Are we talking about Iraq?

Um Saddam violated the terms of a cease fire agreement, from that point a state of war existed...under any international law.

This doesn't even take into account the countless violations of the UN Sanctions.

The UN can't do shit...we bankroll it, we supply the military for it...it is a corrupt ineffectual piece of shit.

I want the UN the fuck out of the Unites States...I want them put smackdab in the heart of Lebanon.



I also believe that condoning and allowing torture, as well as disregarding the Geneva Convention are all actions that are worthy of being tried for.


Does it bother you that those we fight are not a signatory, don't adhere to the protocols and are not a recognized army?






And that is the reason I don't support Castro or a government like China's. (Which by the way is now being described by many as Capitalist Communism. I'm sure you know the difference between communism and socialism.

And I'm sure you don't...at least not the Marxist definitions...

Tell you what...

Why don't you tell us the differences...I want to see you explain this and still jock socialism...

Personally, I think you haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about.

By all means...explain to us the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Please...educate us.

[Purple & Gold]

Socialism is the ultimate form of selfishness...

It takes from others completely.

And that's right it fails, because everyone starts wanting a little bit more...corruption and socialism go hand in hand...and usually it's the biggest advocates and leaders that end up becoming corrupt.

Socialism is the Catholic Priest of Governments.


And it fails, not because humans are selfish, but because they are built to compete.


Socialism is premised on a lie, that somehow all humans want to be equal etc, that is not true, all humans do not want to be equal. All races are racist, all ethnicities are same..and all cultures are ethnocentric.

And those that don't want to compete genrally don't want to work...so what ends up happening is the only ones carrying the weight in a Socialist Society are those that want no part of it. And even it's staunches advocates are the most competive...so in time they will change as well.
I disagree with everything you said there.

It sucks...I don't want to be a communal creature...I'm not a fucking ant. I want to do what the fuck I want to do and who is to say I am wrong for doing that, so long as I don't hurt anyone?
But yet you want other people to work like ants as long as it isn't you.

Who appointed Karl Marx my judge and jury?
And who appointed big business the ultimate judge on so many people around the world?

Why should someone that doesn't work as hard as I do have the same status?
Why are you so worried about status? That sounds a little selfish.

And all Chavez has done is fucked Venezuela's economy.
Do you really believe this?

And Velik...the US isn't particularly worried about friends at this juncture, we are more concerned with a hostile ideology...why do you think we re-elected W?
You're not worried if the U.S. has friends at this juncture. Many people are. I would say the most recent election proves that. I'd also say Bush's reelection was very, very close. Too bad nobody decided to look more closely into it during the time.

[whottt]

Come on now whottt, you recognize that their are many different forms of capitalism, but yet you don't recognize that their are many different forms of socialism. :wtf


Um...you don't seem to recognize that Chavez is an admitted marxist like Castro, like Stalin, like Lennin...like Kim Jong Il.

There is only one definion for Marxists...don't let the fact that none of them have been capable of achieving his definition of the terms confuse you.

He's a Marxist and there is only one definition...

I want you to tell us what it is....I want you to tell us the differences.

Educate us.



You do realize that you are not speaking to a common Argentine. You are speaking to one of their elitists.


I realize that I am speaking with a man who has an electic political view, at least by American standards, and who has taken more pileons on this forum for being a commie liberal than you have...

I am speaking with a guy who I have blasted on more than one occasion for his views...

I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.

I am speaking with a guy who is anti-bush, anti-war, pro feed the world...

That's why I find it extraordinarily amusing that you have labeled him an elitist.

He's only conservative by the extreme left's definion of the world.

To tell you the truth...I've never seem get as offended towards anyone as he has towards you.

And I think you are the one coming off as the elitist.

You think you can throw a label on him and win an argument, you are mistaken.

[Purple & Gold]

Are we talking about Iraq?

Um Saddam violated the terms of a cease fire agreement, from that point a state of war existed...under any international law.

This doesn't even take into account the countless violations of the UN Sanctions.

The UN can't do shit...we bankroll it, we supply the military for it...it is a corrupt ineffectual piece of shit.
But yet Saddam had finally agreed to everything and the whole world was on our side. He couldn't scratch his ass without the whole world knowing, but yet George Bush sold the war on the fact that he had weapons of mass destruction and that an attack was very likely to be imminent. Why did he feel the need to do this?

I want the UN the fuck out of the Unites States...I want them put smackdab in the heart of Lebanon.
Yes I know how you and your type thinks. God forbid that we try to have an organization that would rather see diplomacy rather than war.

Does it bother you that those we fight are not a signatory, don't adhere to the protocols and are not a recognized army?
Again the same weak argument I've always heard. If it's a war on terror, are they not considered a POW?

And I'm sure you don't...at least not the Marxist definitions...

Tell you what...

Why don't you tell us the differences...I want to see you explain this and still jock socialism...

Personally, I think you haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about.

By all means...explain to us the difference between Socialism and Communism.

Please...educate us.
I really don't have the time to educate you. It will take way too long. And being that you are ignorant and already have your mind made up, I'm sure it will be a lost cause. I already know that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

[whottt]

I disagree with everything you said there.

But yet you want other people to work like ants as long as it isn't you.

I do?

Prove that....





And who appointed big business the ultimate judge on so many people around the world?

I don't see big business judging anyone...I see you judging big business.


Why are you so worried about status? That sounds a little selfish.

Why are you?

You know what sounds selfish to me? You advocating a political belief that must forced upon me by a minority.

You telling me how I should live my life sounds selfish...




Do you really believe this?

You're not worried if the U.S. has friends at this juncture.

If by friends you mean the UN, Germany, France, Russia, China and most of the tin pot dictators in the Middle Eeast and wannabe's in Latin America...

Fuck no...I don't care. Those countries are shit...they have drug us twice in to world wars, or stood idly by while we fought them...they are the reason we became the SuperPower we are...and now they just simply resent it.


Many people are. I would say the most recent election proves that. I'd also say Bush's reelection was very, very close. Too bad nobody decided to look more closely into it during the time.


And I'd say that Bush was not a poular candidate with anyone...he was just the lesser of to shitty candidates to the majority of Americans.

The fact that Democrats somehow have convinced themselves that the closeness of the last election was somehow a victory only underscores the clueless ness of the party...


Would you consider nearly beating the Celtics a moral victory? Or a failure to beat a shitty team?

2004 was a failure to beat a shitty team, by being a shitter team.


When you consider that Bush actually lose the popular vote on 2000 and went on to be the first president of that type to win re-election, not only winning, but winning by a majority and recieving more votes than any candidate in history...

No, you guys didn't almost win...

You made this years Celtics look like the 97 Bulls is what you did...


There was no moral victory in 04...Bush backed into it thanks to the Democratic Party's extreme leftward shift...

[Purple & Gold]

Um...you don't seem to recognize that Chavez is an admitted marxist like Castro, like Stalin, like Lennin...like Kim Jong Il.

There is only one definion for Marxists...don't let the fact that none of them have been capable of achieving his definition of the terms confuse you.

He's a Marxist and there is only one definition...
Again as I said before, I don't agree with everything he stands for. But do not try to paint him as some type of dictator or way worse than other dictators that were in Latin America.

I realize that I am speaking with a man who has an electic political view, at least by American standards, and who has taken more pileons on this forum for being a commie liberal than you have...
I realize this is a forum where most people are from the George Bush's state, but I didn't realize it was this far to the right. Of course I'm not talking about the democrats in this forum that own the repubs daily.

I am speaking with a guy who I have blasted on more than one occasion for his views...
And your point is?

I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.
I find that hard to believe, but I guess I could be wrong about that.

I am speaking with a guy who is anti-bush, anti-war, pro feed the world...
Something that I agree with him about.

That's why I find it extraordinarily amusing that you have labeled him an elitist.

He's only conservative by the extreme left's definion of the world.
And he's only liberal by the extreme rights way of thinking.

To tell you the truth...I've never seem get as offended towards anyone as he has towards you.
Maybe cause I hit a little close to home.

And I think you are the one coming off as the elitist.
Well I think it's been shown that your opinions don't mean shit.

You think you can throw a label on him and win an argument, you are mistaken.
So you continue to ignore the information that has been provided.

Funny how this, "I am speaking with a guy who has proven himself on more than one occasion to be objective, openminded and willing to reconsider his stance based on additional information.", doesn't apply to you at all. But yet you find it to be a strong attribute.

[whottt]

But yet Saddam had finally agreed to everything and the whole world was on our side. He couldn't scratch his ass without the whole world knowing, but yet George Bush sold the war on the fact that he had weapons of mass destruction and that an attack was very likely to be imminent. Why did he feel the need to do this?

Since he knew Saddam didn't have them, you tell me...because he wanted to look like an idiot I guess?

Why did Kerry, Clinton, Annan, Chirac and everyone else say Saddam had WMD or was working towards them...before Bush was even in office?






The whole world was never on our side...

France had all the development deals for Iraq's Oilfields after the sanctions were lifted.

Germany, Russia and China were all reciving subsidized Oil in the OFF program.




Why would he say there were WMD when he knew there weren't?

Once we entered the country, why not plant evidence to prove Saddam did have WMD?


The fact is everyone thought he had them and then political opportunism took over...

Chirac rode Anti-US Sentiment to re-election...Kerry tried to ride Anti-Bush sentiment to the whitehouse...

Kerry sat on the fucking intelligence committe for nearly 20 years...and he was saying the same thing(until Howard Dean started pulling ahead of him).


And on top of all this...how can anyone be so stupid as to think there is no way Saddam didn't have them...we only gave him 3 months to get rid of anything...with no inspectors in Iraq.





Yes I know how you and your type thinks. God forbid that we try to have an organization that would rather see diplomacy rather than war.

The UN is just about the most elitist organization in the world and it's only goal is supeceding the US as the World's police...something they are incapable of doing, militarilily, ecnomically...

They are nothing but a shank ass bitch for anyone with a set of balls.

They are a bunch of spoiled aristocratic diplomats...


Again the same weak argument I've always heard. If it's a war on terror, are they not considered a POW?

It's not a weak argument...it's the protocols of the geneva convention...

Do you think spies benefit from the Conventions?

What about a group of US Special Forces operating covertly and without official sanction?

You think those motherfuckers get the benefits of the Geneva Convention?

By any country?



I really don't have the time to educate you. It will take way too long. And being that you are ignorant and already have your mind made up, I'm sure it will be a lost cause. I already know that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.


And I think you are simply an idiot for selling yourself as some kind of peace nik while at the same time espousing a form government that has been proven time and time again as the most brutal, opressive and inhumane system of governance in the 20th century.

A system where people literally die trying to escape it...in virtually every country it's practiced...

And I also don't think you have a fucking clue on what Socialism is....

You never see a country go straight commie...it almost always goes Socialist first.

The idea is to take a little freedom and independence at a time...not all at once...only the biggest idiots would allow that to happen.

[whottt]

So tell me P&G...when all the world, excepting myself, finally gets on the exact same page so Socialism Can work...

I am gonna say fuck you. I am gonna go take my fishing rod and go sit by a pond and fish...I will build my own house. I will play my own music, make my own drugs or other party materials...I will not ask anyone for a single thing...

If someone should visit me I will be a cordial host, fuck their girlfriend, and share what I have fairly generously...but what I won't do...is be a part of that society.

I am just going to sit there in front of you doing what I want and asking no one for anything...

What will you do then?

You know...when someone else says...that might be kind of nice to do.

Will you kill me?

Will you throw me in prison for fucking the whole thing up?

Will you force me to live as everyone else?

What will you do...

Now tell me who the fucking selfish one is again...


And I don't ask anyone to live as an ant...it's just there are a lot of you that want to live that way....I say go do it. By all means...live the way you choose. I won't call you selfish for living accoring to your beliefs if you don't call me selfish for living according to mine.

Get all the hollywood lefties to bankroll it...and all the poor to go benefit from it...just do it.


But the second that wall goes up...it becomes the absolute worst form of government in existence...even worse than the Islamic Theocracies.

[mookie2001]

whottt is a narccc

[Nbadan]

The Chavez-Giuliani connection...

Giuliani Law Firm Lobbies in Texas for Chavez-Controlled Citgo
By Henry Goldman and Jonathan D. Salant


March 14 (Bloomberg) -- Rudolph Giuliani's law firm lobbies for Citgo Petroleum Corp., a unit of the state-owned oil company controlled by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, the U.S.'s chief antagonist in the Western Hemisphere.

Bracewell & Giuliani LLP registered to lobby for Citgo in Texas on April 26, 2005, less than a month after the former New York mayor joined the firm and became a name partner, state records show. Citgo renewed the contract in 2006 and 2007 and pays the firm $5,000 a month to track legislation. Giuliani doesn't lobby, the firm says.

The law firm's representation of Citgo comes as Chavez's relations with the U.S. have grown increasingly hostile. He has called President George W. Bush a ``devil'' and a ``madman'' and staged a mass, anti-American rally in Buenos Aires during Bush's trip to Latin America, which ends today.

Patrick Oxford, a managing partner at Bracewell & Giuliani, said Giuliani, a Republican presidential hopeful, has no dealings with the Venezuelan-owned oil company. ``He has not seen hide nor hair of Citgo,'' Oxford said.

Giuliani's presidential-exploratory committee released a statement that didn't address written questions asking whether he knew his firm did business with Houston-based Citgo and whether he considered it appropriate. The e-mailed statement discussed his views toward Chavez and energy policy.

``Mayor Giuliani has been clear and consistent -- Hugo Chavez is no friend of the United States,'' campaign spokeswoman Katie Levinson said in the statement. ``Chief among the reasons Chavez has so much influence around the world is our ongoing dependence on foreign oil.''

No Disclosure

Giuliani, 62, has been active in business since leaving office at the end of 2001, making speeches, running a security- consulting company and an investment bank, and joining the Houston-based law firm. He hasn't yet had to file public disclosures of his client lists, income or holdings.

The U.S. State Department said in May that Venezuela was ``not fully cooperating with counter-terrorism efforts,'' and the U.S. government banned arms sales to the country.

Citgo has been fully owned by Venezuela's national oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela SA (PDVSA), since 1990. Chavez, 52, who earlier this year won the authority to supersede the Venezuelan legislature, has the power to appoint and fire PDVSA's top executives and set policy for the company.

Paying Dividends

Citgo spokesman David McCollum said PDVSA supplies Citgo with crude oil to refine and sell. ``We do pay dividends to them as any subsidiary does to its parent company,'' he said.

Venezuela is the third-largest oil producer in OPEC.

Texas Ethics Commission filings show Citgo paid Bracewell & Giuliani between $75,000 and $150,000 in 2005-06 and will pay an additional $50,000 to $100,000 this year. The firm monitors such issues as environmental regulation and taxes, Oxford said.

Bracewell & Patterson, the predecessor firm to Bracewell & Giuliani, did legal work for PDVSA in the 1990s, before Chavez came to power, and for Citgo before Giuliani arrived in 2005, Oxford said.

Oxford called Citgo ``an old-time U.S. company,'' saying it pays U.S. taxes and employs 5,000 people in the U.S., mainly in Texas.

In September, 7-Eleven Inc., which once owned Citgo, dropped the oil company as its gasoline supplier, citing in part Chavez's hostile rhetoric toward the U.S.

Building an Image

The law firm's association with a Venezuelan company may affect Giuliani's image, which was burnished by his role in coordinating New York's response after the 2001 terrorist attacks, said Linda Fowler, a professor of government at Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire.

The question, Fowler said, ``is how Rudy reconciles his heroic role as mayor of a devastated New York with the less appealing image of the corporate shill.''

Giuliani forged his post-Sept. 11 persona with such acts as rejecting a $10 million contribution for disaster relief from Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Bin Abdul Aziz, after the prince said the U.S. should ``adopt a more balanced stand toward the Palestinian cause.''

A Richmond Times-Dispatch editorial last month contrasted Giuliani's gesture with former U.S. Representative Joseph Kennedy II -- son of the late U.S. Senator Robert Kennedy and president of the nonprofit Citizens Energy Corp. Kennedy has appeared in television commercials thanking Venezuela for providing discounted oil to heat homes of low-income U.S. residents.

The Feb. 15 editorial reminded readers that Giuliani ``scorned money he considered tainted.''

Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=latin_america&sid=a4Gvp1ATkE9M)

[whottt]

The Chavez-Giuliani connection...

[B]Giuliani Law Firm Lobbies in Texas for Chavez-Controlled Citgo
By Henry Goldman and Jonathan D. Salant



Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=latin_america&sid=a4Gvp1ATkE9M)



:sleep

[whottt]

Texas Ethics Commission filings show Citgo paid Bracewell & Giuliani between $75,000 and $150,000 in 2005-06 and will pay an additional $50,000 to $100,000 this year. The firm monitors such issues as environmental regulation and taxes, Oxford said.

Bracewell & Patterson, the predecessor firm to Bracewell & Giuliani, did legal work for PDVSA in the 1990s, before Chavez came to power, and for Citgo before Giuliani arrived in 2005, Oxford said.

Think about it...


And why are you so scared of Guilianni anyway? Could be worse. Should be better than W from your POV.

Only a died in the wool party loyalist worries about the opposing party at this stage.

[johnsmith]

The Chavez-Giuliani connection...

[B]Giuliani Law Firm Lobbies in Texas for Chavez-Controlled Citgo
By Henry Goldman and Jonathan D. Salant



Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=latin_america&sid=a4Gvp1ATkE9M)

You mean a company doing billions of dollars worth of business in the United States needs legal representation? My God, I'm moving to Australia, this is terrible news. How dare they?

[clambake]

Kinda makes Obama's investment argument look silly, in terms of magnitude.

[smeagol]

I'm an elitist because I don't want communism to take over my country?

Ok :rolleyes

P&G, unfortunately you have no clue what went on in Argentina in the 1970s. You judge those events from a comfortable sofa in your socal house, far removed from the realities of a dirty war.

And you keep saying I trivialize what Videla and Pinochet when you keep showing your bias by not condemning the terrorists the way you condenm the military. Terrorists killed many people but I guess it makes you look cool to blame everything on the military.

Again, go fuck yourself, take the first plane to Caracas and live the bolivarian revolution like a man: in Venezuela.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:lmao it always amazes me how people can talk with such authority about something they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about! Purple & Gold, you are, as has been stated here before an ASSHAT!! Go live in Venezuela for a few years and then come talk to me about all the "good" things Chavez has done for the country! Un-fucking-believable!

P.S. Smeagol, how can you be surprised at Chavez being allowed to hold an anti-american rally here in Argentina? we're talking about a country where when Castro came, he was treated as a celebrity rather than the dictator he is... I have to say with every passing election, I lose hope in the Argentinian people's ability to choose adequate leadership and role models... I swear, we need to get invaded or something

[smeagol]

Manumaniac, you are an elitist

[Yonivore]

:lmao it always amazes me how people can talk with such authority about something they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about! Purple & Gold, you are, as has been stated here before an ASSHAT!! Go live in Venezuela for a few years and then come talk to me about all the "good" things Chavez has done for the country! Un-fucking-believable!

P.S. Smeagol, how can you be surprised at Chavez being allowed to hold an anti-american rally here in Argentina? we're talking about a country where when Castro came, he was treated as a celebrity rather than the dictator he is... I have to say with every passing election, I lose hope in the Argentinian people's ability to choose adequate leadership and role models... I swear, we need to get invaded or something
And who do you think will be looked to for help when both Argentina and Venezuela become the socialist, dictatorial backwater countries they're bound for?

Yeah, well, don't hold your breath if Democrats control any branch of the U. S. Government.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And who do you think will be looked to for help when both Argentina and Venezuela become the socialist, dictatorial backwater countries they're bound for?

big fucking stretch right there don't you think son? Kirschner might be a left leening, useless SOB, but he's not dictatorial. Do your homework before you start spewing bullshit around Yoni.

[ChumpDumper]

We would just invade, occupy and nation-build like we do in the case of every dictatorship, right Yoni?

[smeagol]

big fucking stretch right there don't you think son? Kirschner might be a left leening, useless SOB, but he's not dictatorial. Do your homework before you start spewing bullshit around Yoni.
Kirchner is useless; Yoni is ignorant.

Life goes on.

[xrayzebra]

We would just invade, occupy and nation-build like we do in the case of every dictatorship, right Yoni?

Yeah, CD, you know us the bad old US of A. All we do
is look for some country to take over and take advantage of.