Playoff Spurs

[Dalhoop]

Last year only eight players played in every game in the series vs the Mavs:

Duncan (41 minutes) 32-12-4
Parker (38 minutes) 20-4-3
Manu (35 minutes) 21-4-2
Finley (37 minutes) 10-5-1
Barry (23 minutes) 5-3-1
Bowen (39 minutes) 5-2-1
Horry (16 minutes) 3-4-0
Van Exel (10 minutes) 1-1

No one else played in more then three games, and when they did play it was not more then 6 minutes.

Thats a very short roster .. I have been talking with a spurs fan on a different board about the playoffs last year and he believes that the team was "gassed" (His word, not mine) at the end of regulation in game seven ... With the short bench .. I can see why.

My question is this ...

I don't think that Duncan, Parker or Manu's minutes will go down. With Barry starting, likely his minutes will stay the same. Bowen will likely get over 30 minutes.

That leaves Finley and Horry's minutes to massage Elson and Oberto into the games (Does Bonner even play? What about Vaughn?)

What do you see as the minutes distribution?

[exstatic]

The Spurs weren't so much gassed as shit beat by Sacto. I had heard that Parker's condition was such that if it were the regular season, he wouldn't have played.

[Dalhoop]

The Spurs weren't so much gassed as shit beat by Sacto. I had heard that Parker's condition was such that if it were the regular season, he wouldn't have played.

I really don't want this to become a "Why the Spurs lost" thread. What I would like to know is how the minutes are going to be distributed.

Are you saying that Parkers minutes could go up, now that he is healthy (Healthy-er)? Where would those minutes come from?

[RC's Boss]

I really don't want this to become a "Why the Spurs lost" thread. What I would like to know is how the minutes are going to be distributed.

Are you saying that Parkers minutes could go up, now that he is healthy (Healthy-er)? Where would those minutes come from?
Give me a moment dude, I'll give Pop a ring and ask him............................................... .................................................. ..................................... Damn got his voice mail, i'll PM you when he calls me back and let you know :smokin

[sprrs]

The minutes will probably stay about the same. Well, if we don't go small ball (please!), Finley will probably see less minutes and Elson will see a decent amount of minutes. Horry might see more, and Vaughn will probably be used in spot situations to give Tony a short break.

[RC's Boss]

Damn, Pop still hasn't called me back.... SUMNABITCH!

[exstatic]

I really don't want this to become a "Why the Spurs lost" thread. What I would like to know is how the minutes are going to be distributed.

Are you saying that Parkers minutes could go up, now that he is healthy (Healthy-er)? Where would those minutes come from?
Uh, you're the one that said they were gassed. I just refuted that. Sorry the post didn't meet your expectations.

Parker won't play more minutes, but he will be more efficient. Some of his drop from 51% in the first round to 42% FG in the second was Dallas and some was him dragging a leg. Don't count on him shooting that low again.

[Dalhoop]

If the Oberto/Elson combo combines for say .. 30 minutes. Does that mean that most of Finelys minutes will be lost?

Does Bonner have to play, or is he going to watch the game (I think he is going to watch)

These should start -

Parker, Barry, Bowen, Duncan and Elson

These should play -

Manu, Finley, Oberto ...

This is already one over what was used last year and we haven't added Vaughn, Horry and Bonner into the minutes mix. (I don't think that any of the three will play more then 5 minutes a game .... some not at all)

[Fabbs]

We can only hope Elson gets many more minutes then Findawg.
Or hope Pop retires after this year.

If Bowens back is still hurting and he contributes zero on offense he needs to have his minutes reduced also. Some games we can get away with no O, but not all.

[exstatic]

Oh, and you're original post is flawed. Seven players who are still here played all 7 games, but there was an 8th that played all 7 games, 10mpg.

[Clutch20]

My question is this ...

I don't think that Duncan, Parker or Manu's minutes will go down. With Barry starting, likely his minutes will stay the same. Bowen will likely get over 30 minutes.

That leaves Finley and Horry's minutes to massage Elson and Oberto into the games (Does Bonner even play? What about Vaughn?)

What do you see as the minutes distribution?
What kind of minutes are you talking about? You've quantified it allright dalhoop, but Pop and staff's assignments of minutes won't differ much from your last year's underwhelming victory over an aged and "gassed" crew. Last year's minutes are set right now as a template. Without analyzing what kind of minutes those were last year you ignore previous factors such as extended playoff seasons segueing into international games, foot injurie minutes, hip injury minutes, and your boys came within a foul of not being able to overcome those debilitating elements? Those minutes last year and these minutes this year, as far as I'm concerned, can stay the same because there are no correlations other than as a quantity.

Now let's talk about "the system." The new players on Spur's team have caught on with the intricacies of "the system." You haven't observed this because had you seen the latest game, you would have seen how Bonner thrives on any minutes given to him, and that boy is hungry to tear into anyone, he's shown no fear against anyone, anytime, any team this year. He's never backed off the bigs, throughly enjoying the banging. He's crafty, too, turning a sneak play into points at a crucial juncture at the end of a game.

J. Vaughn, he's earned his minutes and Pop's trust thru his defense and offense, but mostly to his decisions running the offense.

Big boy Ely remains an x factor at this point, older, beefier, unproven untested but has the experience to carve out minutes for himself once he tastes the heady wine of postseason play and media exposure.

Do I need to talk about Elson, no, not if you really are a conscientious follower of the game.

Oberto? He's Manu's shadow and complimentary, and that's quite a compliment.

[Dalhoop]

Uh, you're the one that said they were gassed. I just refuted that. Sorry the post didn't meet your expectations.

Did not, someone else did. I just looked up the minutes to investigate the idea. I was rather stunned that the Spur would shorten their bench that far. At the time I didn't notice it.

Do you think that they well shorten it that far again? I understand that Elson/Oberto will get more of a look, but it will take minutes from the other players.

For instance, if Vaughn plays 10 minutes a game. Could the Spurs get 20 points from Parker in under 30 minutes?

It just seems like they are going to gassed again (Again, not my words) in this years playoffs. If they were beat-up, couldn't it happen again?

If the Spurs beefed up their bench (Manu helps with this greatly) and then don't use them, whats the point.

[Clutch20]

Did not, someone else did. I just looked up the minutes to investigate the idea. I was rather stunned that the Spur would shorten their bench that far. At the time I didn't notice it.

Do you think that they well shorten it that far again? I understand that Elson/Oberto will get more of a look, but it will take minutes from the other players.

For instance, if Vaughn plays 10 minutes a game. Could the Spurs get 20 points from Parker in under 30 minutes?

It just seems like they are going to gassed again (Again, not my words) in this years playoffs. If they were beat-up, couldn't it happen again?

If the Spurs beefed up their bench (Manu helps with this greatly) and then don't use them, whats the point.
read the post above

[Dalhoop]

You've quantified it allright dalhoop, but Pop and staff's assignments of minutes won't differ much from your last year's underwhelming victory over an aged and "gassed" crew.

I don't think that the minutes can stay the same. Elson/Oberto will have to get minutes, and those minutes have to come from someplace (As would Bonners and Vaughns ... And Elys)

You see what I'm saying? (Typing :) )

The minutes have to change if you insert five more players into the mix ... How they play doesn't really concern me, it would be who sits when they play.

[Dalhoop]

read the post above

Give me a break, I have S.A.D. (Slow Ass Dial-up)

[Clutch20]

Thinking they can't stay the same and the reality of that they are the same as of yesterday, today, and tomorrow dalhoop are the difference in mindsets.

Gametime decisions alter minute allotments, more to starters, less to starters, more to bench, less to bench, that you don't think they can stay the same way is a notion that is ,well, at best, dated.

[exstatic]

For instance, if Vaughn plays 10 minutes a game. Could the Spurs get 20 points from Parker in under 30 minutes?

Vaughn's 10 minutes would be Van Exel's, the 8th player of your 7 to play in all 7 games last year. I think Vaughn might do better than 1.1/1.3 per contest on 33% shooting, too.

[Clutch20]

Vaughn's 10 minutes would be Van Exel's, the 8th player of your 7 to play in all 7 games last year. I think Vaughn might do better than 1.1/1.3 per contest on 33% shooting, too.
word

[T Park]

Maybe :lol

[Dalhoop]

Thinking they can't stay the same and the reality of that they are the same as of yesterday, today, and tomorrow dalhoop are the difference in mindsets.

Gametime decisions alter minute allotments, more to starters, less to starters, more to bench, less to bench, that you don't think they can stay the same way is a notion that is ,well, at best, dated.

In the playoffs, teams often shorten the bench ... The Mavs do, last year the Spurs definitly did.

Many people here complain about "small ball" as something that the Spurs didn't do all season then with the Mavs is was on all the time. It would not be unusual for the minutes in the playoffs to be altered.

The stars play more .. The roll players less ... The ones that have not earned the trust, not at all.

Small ball didn't work, so the Spurs changes some players to make playing "Bigger" easier. The small ball players are still on the team (Finley and Barry primarily)

Because "small ball" is out ... You hope ... Do those players see their minutes given to Elson/Oberto. How does this effect Horry (Last year he was the only other big to play besides Duncan)

I know you think that I am talking down against the Spurs ... I'm not, I am just wondering who, in the minds of Spurs fans, are the "Odd men out"

[Dalhoop]

Vaughn's 10 minutes would be Van Exel's, the 8th player of your 7 to play in all 7 games last year. I think Vaughn might do better than 1.1/1.3 per contest on 33% shooting, too.

I guess my source deletes retired players ... My bad. Thanks.

[exstatic]

I just went to the Spurs official NBA site, clicked on stats, clicked on last year's stats, and then on playoffs, then conference semi finals.

[Dalhoop]

I just went to the Spurs official NBA site, clicked on stats, clicked on last year's stats, and then on playoffs, then conference semi finals.

Corrected (ESPN has removed Van Exel completely)

[exstatic]

Maybe :lol
:lol OK, probably not worse, then.

[Clutch20]

In the playoffs, teams often shorten the bench ... The Mavs do, last year the Spurs definitly did.

Many people here complain about "small ball" as something that the Spurs didn't do all season then with the Mavs is was on all the time. It would not be unusual for the minutes in the playoffs to be altered.

The stars play more .. The roll players less ... The ones that have not earned the trust, not at all.

Small ball didn't work, so the Spurs changes some players to make playing "Bigger" easier. The small ball players are still on the team (Finley and Barry primarily)

Because "small ball" is out ... You hope ... Do those players see their minutes given to Elson/Oberto. How does this effect Horry (Last year he was the only other big to play besides Duncan)

I know you think that I am talking down against the Spurs ... I'm not, I am just wondering who, in the minds of Spurs fans, are the "Odd men out"
I'll tell you what's scary dalhoop, Pop can do anything he wants to do, making your and my words here only so much dust blowing on that '07 trophy that will occupy space in our display case!
We can only go by what currently goes, and those that formulate Spur's
players minutes will tweak and change from game to game. Manu is so ever in flux and there are new players that will bring out new twists to our game.
Now why would we want to repeat the mistakes of the past?
We've already got players that are more rested and peaking at a good time.
That beats last year.
This is a rejuvenated team. How? I dunno, but their pace is faster, offense or defense doesn't matter, with Elson on or sitting out.
Could we be speaking of plateauing, namely, your Mavs?
Could we be speaking of continually peaking, our Spurs?
Pure speculation and manipulating of second hand information more likely......

[Dalhoop]

I'll tell you what's scary dalhoop, Pop can do anything he wants to do, making your and my words here only so much dust blowing on that '07 trophy that will occupy space in our display case!

OK, I get it, you think that the Spurs will win it all. Thats not what I want to know though.

Should I take your comments to mean that you think that everyone will get to play? I know that with the Mavs Barea wont, neither will Ager. Croshere will get under 10 minutes. Mbenga is out for the season ... he wont get minutes.

See its not really that hard ... Who do you think are the odd men out?

[mikeanthony21]

Give me a break, I have S.A.D. (Slow Ass Dial-up)
...AND you're paying $23.90 a month??? :drunk

[sanman53]

I am looking forward to seeing Timmy put up those numbers again.

[kskonn]

Duncan, parker and ginoblis minutes will go up. Finley and Barry will go slightly down, I also believe their minutes will be interchangable depending on which one is playing better that day. Horry's minutes will increase. I think Elson and Horry will be playing next to duncan for the most part with Bonner and Oberto getting spot minutes. Oberto could get more run depening on Elsons ability to stay out of foul trouble. Vaughn will see 10-15 minutes a game.

I do not think the spurs were gassed in the series, but I do think they were gassed in game 7. More importantly duncan was gassed. He played a ton of minutes that night and carried the team the whole game. If I recall he was dehydrated and cramping in between regulation and overtime. Parker being healthier will help not only on offense but defense. I Also think that parker having a more reliable jump shot will prove to be very helpfull for the spurs overall offensive scheme.

[Dalhoop]

...AND you're paying $23.90 a month???

Not only that, but I live too far from a power pole (I cannot get High speed cable) ... And the kicker .... I have no clear southern view (No dish action) .... Sucks to be. :)

[Clutch20]

Not only that, but I live too far from a power pole (I cannot get High speed cable) ... And the kicker .... I have no clear southern view (No dish action) .... Sucks to be. :)
I nominate Dalhoop to be the legal, ethical, and moral compass for the horde from the north since he posts stuff that make sense at least 33% of the time, but also mostly because his spelling is up to snuff, anybody second's the motion?

[Dalhoop]

Duncan, parker and ginoblis minutes will go up.

From this?

Duncan (41 minutes) 32-12-4
Parker (38 minutes) 20-4-3
Manu (35 minutes) 21-4-2

Thats ALOT of minutes, exspcially sense you later say that Duncan was gassed playing heavy minutes later in your post. How will he be with even more minutes?

So lets say Duncan (45), Parker (40) Manu (40)


Finley and Barry will go slightly down, I also believe their minutes will be interchangable depending on which one is playing better that day.

Sounds good to me...

Finley (25), Barry (15)


Horry's minutes will increase. I think Elson and Horry will be playing next to duncan for the most part with Bonner and Oberto getting spot minutes. Vaughn will see 10-15 minutes a game.


That would be something like this...

Horry (20), Elson (25), Oberto (15), Vaughn (13), Bonner (15)

That adds up to 253 minutes (Only 240 in a game) and you didn't give Bowan any minutes. He should probably get something like 30+ in guarding Howard.

There are not enough minutes to go around ... Someone is going to have sit as the big three start sucking up more minutes.

[Dalhoop]

I nominate Dalhoop to be the legal, ethical, and moral compass for the horde from the north since he posts stuff that make sense at least 33% of the time, but also mostly because his spelling is up to snuff, anybody second's the motion?

As always, its an honor just being nominated

[Clutch20]

From this?

Duncan (41 minutes) 32-12-4
Parker (38 minutes) 20-4-3
Manu (35 minutes) 21-4-2

Thats ALOT of minutes, exspcially sense you later say that Duncan was gassed playing heavy minutes later in your post. How will he be with even more minutes?

So lets say Duncan (45), Parker (40) Manu (40)



Sounds good to me...

Finley (25), Barry (15)



That would be something like this...

Horry (20), Elson (25), Oberto (15), Vaughn (13), Bonner (15)

That adds up to 253 minutes (Only 240 in a game) and you didn't give Bowan any minutes. He should probably get something like 30+ in guarding Howard.

There are not enough minutes to go around ... Someone is going to have sit as the big three start sucking up more minutes.
dalhoop, mon amigo, are you padding your thread?
minutes, shminutes, any theoretical set of minutes goes until midways 1st period.
adjustments then
5 minutes into 2nd period
adjust again
just right after the half as the spittle in the lockerroom flies
adjust
"the path to and from the bench will be well traveled" until 4th quarter action seals the deal, set in blood-drenched stone.

[Dalhoop]

dalhoop, mon amigo, are you padding your thread?

If you don't like the thread, then don't post on it. If you don't think that minutes matter ... Then post that and move on.

I understand that game situations change and nothing is set in stone, someone gets hot and he stays in the game .... but before the game .... Someone is going to have sit.

I thought that kskonn had the minutes about right (I would have the Big threes minutes the same .. other then that, it all makes sense .. other then forgetting about Bowen), but when you add it up .... It doesn't add up. Someone is not going to see those minutes. Most likely the Spurs wont use an eleven man rotation (Last year it was only 8) ... If nothing else, because the minutes just don't add up.

[Dalhoop]

...AND you're paying $23.90 a month??? :drunk

By the way, he is the one that said they were "Gassed".

[FromWayDowntown]

I think there are some faulty assumptions that are pretty pervasive in this thread.

First, while Pop does shorten his rotations at playoff time, last year's series with the Mavericks was an anomaly, largely because Pop basically had 4 guys -- Nesterovic, Mohammed, Udrih, and Oberto -- who he refused to play, mostly because each proved himself to be overmatched in short stretches.

I still believe that part of the impetus for the Spurs off-season moves was to lengthen the bench in a playoff series. Because of that, I think it's conceivable that Pop will play at least 9 and maybe as many as 10 guys -- at least for cursory minutes -- for most of the playoffs.

Likewise, the notion that Vaughn might not play is laughable. Barring some remarkable set back in the next few weeks, Vaughn will play some 1st and 2nd quarter minutes in playoff games, and probably will play some 3rd quarter and early 4th quarter minutes as well. Vaughn will play 10-14 minutes each night, I think, with Parker getting the other 34-38 minutes. That's not an unusual minute distribution for Pop at playoff time -- even when he had Speedy Claxton to back-up a young Tony Parker in 2003, Pop played Parker 34 mpg and Claxton about 14 mpg.

Finley will undoubtedly remain a part of the rotation, but his minutes should decline from last year's series with Dallas. Horry will nominally be in the rotation, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Pop used Bonner to offset matchup problems.

That leaves at least this:

Elson
Duncan
Bowen
Barry
Parker
Ginobili
Vaughn
Finley
Horry/Bonner

A 9-man rotation without considering Bonner as a stand-alone from Horry and without considering Oberto.

Obviously, Parker and Duncan are going to get heavy minutes, if they're healthy. In big series, Duncan is a 40+ mpg player (in '05 he played 40.7 against Detroit and 39.6 against Phoenix; in '04, he averaged 41.8 against LA; in '03, he averaged 43.8 against New Jersey, 43.3 against Dallas, and 40.3 against LA). If the question is production -- i.e., whether Tim can improve upon his gross production if his minutes are the same or slightly reduced, the answer is likely to be no. But, the idea for the Spurs (I think) is to mitigate the need to score by playing better defense in big spots by adding athleticism to the mix and having bigs on the floor who can better handle the new NBA style. That's why Elson and Bonner are here.

The main production point that Tim needs to replicate or improve is his rebounding number. And what the Spurs need, more than anything else, I think, is for someone (Elson, Horry, Bonner, Oberto) to add some rebounding punch on the defensive end.

Parker doesn't need 38+ mpg to be a 20 ppg scorer. In fact, I think Parker would prove to be a more effective player if he's only asked to play 34-36 minutes each night and his bench time is padded by mandatory timeouts.

As for the others, Manu is going to get 30-35 minutes every night, just as he did against Dallas last year. I do think, however, that if there is a Spur whose production is going to increase without a huge bump in minutes, it's Manu who will get that.

Barry and Finley will probably play in the 22-28 minute range -- already a huge difference from 2006 if Finley isn't made to play 37 mpg. If Vaughn gets 10 productive minutes, the Spurs are better off than they were last year as well.

[wildbill2u]

Vaughn's 10 minutes would be Van Exel's, the 8th player of your 7 to play in all 7 games last year. I think Vaughn might do better than 1.1/1.3 per contest on 33% shooting, too.
The best thing to happen to the Spurs this year was T Parker's injury. It forced Pop to give some quality time to Vaughn and some minutes to Beno. And we won with those guys playing virtually all the minutes.

Now, going down the stretch and into the playoffs, we have some PGs in reserve who are battle-tested, the rust of not playing is off, and they are more confident and ready to go.

So whatever minutes they get in the playoffs should be better than they would have been if they continued to get only spot minutes during the regular season.

[Dalhoop]

Alright, lets come at this from a dfferent direction ...

PG - Parker (35), Vaughn (13) ... Adds to 48
SG - Barry (15), Manu (35), Finley (8) .... Adds to 48
SF - Bowen (30), Finley (18) ... Adds to 48
PF - Duncan (40), Bonner (5), Horry (3) ... Adds to 48
C - Elson (30), Oberto (10), Horry (8) ... adds to 48

Thats eleven guys ...

Duncan (40)
Parker (35)
Manu (35)
Bowen (30)
Elson (30)
Finley (26)
Barry (15)
Vaughn (13)
Horry (12)
Oberto (10)
Bonner (5)

Is that what the Spurs are thinking ... Mostly (I understand that Barry's and Finley's minutes are interchangable)

[Clutch20]

I think there are some faulty assumptions that are pretty pervasive in this thread.

First, while Pop does shorten his rotations at playoff time, last year's series with the Mavericks was an anomaly, largely because Pop basically had 4 guys -- Nesterovic, Mohammed, Udrih, and Oberto -- who he refused to play, mostly because each proved himself to be overmatched in short stretches.

I still believe that part of the impetus for the Spurs off-season moves was to lengthen the bench in a playoff series. Because of that, I think it's conceivable that Pop will play at least 9 and maybe as many as 10 guys -- at least for cursory minutes -- for most of the playoffs.

Likewise, the notion that Vaughn might not play is laughable. Barring some remarkable set back in the next few weeks, Vaughn will play some 1st and 2nd quarter minutes in playoff games, and probably will play some 3rd quarter and early 4th quarter minutes as well. Vaughn will play 10-14 minutes each night, I think, with Parker getting the other 34-38 minutes. That's not an unusual minute distribution for Pop at playoff time -- even when he had Speedy Claxton to back-up a young Tony Parker in 2003, Pop played Parker 34 mpg and Claxton about 14 mpg.

Finley will undoubtedly remain a part of the rotation, but his minutes should decline from last year's series with Dallas. Horry will nominally be in the rotation, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Pop used Bonner to offset matchup problems.

That leaves at least this:

Elson
Duncan
Bowen
Barry
Parker
Ginobili
Vaughn
Finley
Horry/Bonner

A 9-man rotation without considering Bonner as a stand-alone from Horry and without considering Oberto.

Obviously, Parker and Duncan are going to get heavy minutes, if they're healthy. In big series, Duncan is a 40+ mpg player (in '05 he played 40.7 against Detroit and 39.6 against Phoenix; in '04, he averaged 41.8 against LA; in '03, he averaged 43.8 against New Jersey, 43.3 against Dallas, and 40.3 against LA). If the question is production -- i.e., whether Tim can improve upon his gross production if his minutes are the same or slightly reduced, the answer is likely to be no. But, the idea for the Spurs (I think) is to mitigate the need to score by playing better defense in big spots by adding athleticism to the mix and having bigs on the floor who can better handle the new NBA style. That's why Elson and Bonner are here.

The main production point that Tim needs to replicate or improve is his rebounding number. And what the Spurs need, more than anything else, I think, is for someone (Elson, Horry, Bonner, Oberto) to add some rebounding punch on the defensive end.

Parker doesn't need 38+ mpg to be a 20 ppg scorer. In fact, I think Parker would prove to be a more effective player if he's only asked to play 34-36 minutes each night and his bench time is padded by mandatory timeouts.

As for the others, Manu is going to get 30-35 minutes every night, just as he did against Dallas last year. I do think, however, that if there is a Spur whose production is going to increase without a huge bump in minutes, it's Manu who will get that.

Barry and Finley will probably play in the 22-28 minute range -- already a huge difference from 2006 if Finley isn't made to play 37 mpg. If Vaughn gets 10 productive minutes, the Spurs are better off than they were last year as well.
This is a very well thought-out prediction on mpg for our players, thanks fromwaydowntown, did anyone else remember last year's time allotments? I do enjoy discussion of who gets how many minutes (up to a certain point) but only after those seeking that info compile everyone's input to come up with their own conclusion. I've predicted before, about 30 seasons worth of predicting which Spur will get how many minutes, and mostly it all goes *poof* just like a 7 game series last minute blunder.

[Bruno]

So we go from a very short rotation to a 11 players rotation. :rolleyes

[Dalhoop]

So we go from a very short rotation to a 11 players rotation.

Eleven is a bit much.


Mavs will most likely use 9 (Terry, Harris, Howard, Dirk, Dampier, Diop, Buckner, George, Stackhouse .... Croshere could see bit minutes in some of the games)

Going eleven sounds like a good idea, if the team was gassed after last years series. I really think that Pop will cut the bench down more then that, but then I wanted to know the Spurs take.

Thanks.