Vaughn fits well as Spurs' mentor

[Spurs Brazil]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...n.36a72ee.html

Vaughn fits well as Spurs' mentor

Web Posted: 03/09/2007 10:43 PM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News

Matt Bonner bounced out of his sideline chair and onto the court when Spurs coach Gregg Popovich unexpectedly called on him in the third quarter of Thursday's game in Sacramento. His enthusiasm carried over when, seconds later, he cut the wrong way and nearly ran into Jacque Vaughn.
Popovich shook his head in frustration, spun on his heels, walked down the bench and muttered a few descriptive adjectives about Bonner's sense of direction. But as Popovich turned around to light into the young forward, Vaughn already was clutching Bonner around the hip, calmly explaining what he had done wrong.

The play didn't show up in the box score of the Spurs' 100-93 victory, but credit Vaughn with another assist. If nothing else, he saved Bonner from a potentially embarrassing blistering.

"That's my job," Vaughn said later, laughing.

The Spurs have benefited from Vaughn's steady hand on more than a few occasions during their 11-game winning streak. He more than capably filled in for injured starter Tony Parker for two games, sparking victories over Houston and the Los Angeles Clippers with his energy and hustle. On Tuesday, he helped direct the Spurs' comeback in Portland as Parker watched from the bench.

"He steps on the court and he takes over in the sense that everybody knows where they're supposed to be," Popovich said. "He'll help other people with what defense we are in, with the play call.

"His aggressiveness defensively — all those things just ups the level of competitiveness when he's on the court."

A 10-year veteran who has played for five franchises, Vaughn credits some of his leadership abilities to a point guard he'll see tonight. Before signing with the Spurs, Vaughn spent two seasons playing behind — and sometimes alongside — New Jersey's Jason Kidd.

"I learned a lot from Jason," Vaughn said. "I think the things that stand out were the fact that he could lead a team by example, the simple things like being at practice, being the first guy to do drills."

Vaughn also benefited from having a locker next to Utah's John Stockton for four seasons. As a rookie, Vaughn learned the value of day-to-day preparation from Stockton, who taught him how to be a professional.

The Spurs recognized as much when they went looking last summer for a veteran point guard to help mentor Beno Udrih and Parker. "We signed him like two minutes after the signing (period) opened up," Popovich said. "It was the first thing we did. We locked him up right off the bat."

At the time, the Spurs planned to have Udrih, who played infrequently last season behind Parker and Nick Van Exel, serve as the primary backup. Which is exactly what Popovich told Vaughn.

"I told him Beno sat all last year, so we're going to give him the ball this year ... and see how he does," Popovich said. "Stick with us. Stay in shape. Bide your time and see what happens."


Vaughn used the time to get know his teammates and learn the Spurs' offense and defense. He often sat next to Udrih on the bench and, when necessary, provided advice or encouragement.
"I never shy away from challenge, but at the same time I knew that with my experience and the places I've been that I could help Tony and Beno," Vaughn said. "I wasn't afraid to do that. I'm pretty OK in my skin right now."

Vaughn also has proved to be pretty OK on the court, too. Frustrated by Udrih's inconsistency, Popovich elevated Vaughn into the backup role when the Spurs began the second leg of their rodeo trip on Feb. 7 in Washington. The team has since gone 12-2.

Vaughn has averaged 4.4 points and 3.3 assists during that time, including 9.0 points and 6.0 assists in the two games he started for Parker. His biggest contributions, however, might be his on-the-ball defense and hustle: Against Houston last week, he scooped up a steal near midcourt with a pop-up slide before darting in for a layup.

"He makes all those little plays that win games, diving on the floor, getting loose balls," Parker said. "He's not maybe the most talented, you can say maybe Beno is more talented.

"But Jacque is playing very hard, and that's what Pop wants."

Whether from watching Vaughn or picking up his aggressiveness on his own, Udrih also played well during Parker's absence. He averaged 11.3 points in three games while making 6 of 8 3-pointers, including the go-ahead shot against Portland.

"We all know Beno can score and he's a heck of a passer," Popovich said. "But when it's money time I'm looking for the other stuff more often than the scoring. To Beno's credit, when we have called on him to get in there, he's done a good job."

With Parker assuming his usual workload Thursday against the Kings, Udrih didn't play. Vaughn, meanwhile, was on the floor at the end of the third quarter, directing traffic.

After Mike Bibby's layup cut the Spurs' lead to one, Vaughn found Bonner open from 25 feet. Three points for Bonner, another assist for Vaughn.

[aaronstampler]

not to sound like a smartass or anything, but if the whole theme of this article is that Vaughn was signed to be a mentor to the younger point guards, then wouldn't he have to be considered a failure in that capacity since Beno played like crap the whole year? Actually, now that I think about it, Tony's game has regressed a bit too.

Thank God he's a decent backup PG because it seems to me that Vaughn's pretty shitty at this mentoring business. You know who must have been a great mentor? Nick Van Exel. Both Tony and Beno played great when he was here last season.

[exstatic]

Tony's game has regressed this year? Interesting theory. Up until his hip pointer, he had probably never played better ball.

[aaronstampler]

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

[ArgSpursFan]

So He is playing more like Iverson ans less like himself?

[whottt]

Gotta agree with ex on this one. Tony has been having his best season offensively IMO. Although his D isn't as good as it was the last time we won a title.

I've also become more impressed with Jacque as he's gotten comfortable on this team.

The fact that he already seems to have the d figured out is impressive...very few players have figured out the Spurs D to that degree within months of being on the team.

[ChumpDumper]

Jesus, here comes the "Parker should be averaging 15 assists per game" canard again.

[whottt]

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.



Parker's has a J now, a good one. His FG% last year was among the best in NBA history for a PG. This year he's pretty good too..

Why do you think the coaches elect him to the AS game? And it more impressive they voted him in this season than it was last season.

I mean holding that dip in FG% against him is like holding it against Jordan that he's scoring 35ppg instead of 37.



You can't judge a Spurs passing ability by his assist totals...they run the ball through Duncan, they run it through Manu...as team the Spurs assists totals are great and this is one of the better offensive teams of the Pop era.


And Tony is having his best year from 3 as well...


And most importantly...Parker has carried the team offensively and in the clutch more than he has in any previous years.

[whottt]

Jesus, here comes the "Parker should be averaging 15 assists per game" canard again.


Werd.

[Bruno]

And even if you look only at his stats, Parker is doing his better year.

He averages 0.5 less turnovers per game and it's more meaningfull than his 3% drop in a FG%.

Haters.... :rolleyes

[exstatic]

Parker's has a J now, a good one. His FG% last year was among the best in NBA history for a PG. This year he's pretty good too..
Bingo. His jumper is SO much better, and it opens the paint for other players when he can hit it. His increased FT% also benefits the team, and is huge for a primary ballhandler. His assist numbers will never be great in a motion offense. It's the nature of the beast. Too many players touch the ball for you to expect Tony to be THE player that delivers the assist.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

His points and assists are virtually the same as last year because he's playing more than a minute less this year. Divide it and see. Per minute, his assists are very very slightly down and his points are very very slightly up.

His field goal percentage is basically the only thing that is down - and I am not sure anyone expected him to repeat the phenomenol FG% of last season - but no one should be complaining about 52% from the floor from a point guard.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season.

05-06 - 6.8 per 40
06-07 - 6.7 per 40

I wouldn't be so concerned over a 0.1 drop.

[T Park]

Vaughn's leadership is akin in 03 to a Danny Ferry role that he had.

He would pull he newbies aside and tell them their mistakes and what not.

Vaughn might not be this high scoring high assisting point guard that everyone clamors for in a poin guard. Although, since hes gotten the backup primary nod, his play has been phenomenal.

The defense, and the baskets he gets for others with his drives are pretty darn good.

Especially Duncan, Elson, Oberto. He seems to find them right NEAR the basket alot for easy shots...

:tu on the signing of Vaughn so far.

[aaronstampler]

I never said he's not playing good or that he didn't deserve to be an All-Star, I simply said he was a little better last year. I don't know why everyone is so defensive about that. It's possible to be a good player and not have your career year.

It's not like it's Tim's best season either and most people agree that his prime is behind him. Doesn't mean he's still not a fabulous player.

I think Tony was amazing in December. Just incredible that month. Since then though his numbers have sagged noticably for whatever reason. It's like as Manu's gotten better, Tony's gotten worse.

And you're being very silly Chump. 15 assists? Show me anybody who ever said such a dumb thing. But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal. Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately.

[1Parker1]

I never said he's not playing good or that he didn't deserve to be an All-Star, I simply said he was a little better last year. I don't know why everyone is so defensive about that. It's possible to be a good player and not have your career year.

I think maybe he "appeared a little better" last year because he had to assume a larger offensive load with Duncan hurt and Ginobili never really finding his groove last season. He was asked to shoot more, score more, pass more, etc. This season with Duncan healthy and recently Ginobili playing out of this world, he's taken a backseat somewhat. But his numbers are still around or better than his "Career" numbers.

[1Parker1]

Either way, I am happy with Vaughn and the leadership he's shown on the court recently. One thing I'm not so excited about: Elson seems have to regressed yet again in that time frame. :(

[ChumpDumper]

But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal.Why? Because you said so? I'm fine with the offense running through Tim and Manu. Why do you want to limit it to just Tony?
Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately.Do you have a quote to that effect?

We're on an 11-game win streak while Tony deals with multiple injuries. I understand all his detractors can do is focus like a laser on assist totals, that's their problem.

[T Park]

Either way, I am happy with Vaughn and the leadership he's shown on the court recently. One thing I'm not so excited about: Elson seems have to regressed yet again in that time frame

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.



And you're being very silly Chump. 15 assists? Show me anybody who ever said such a dumb thing. But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal. Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately

He'll more than likely never average that due to the offense.

That, freakin, simple.

[aaronstampler]

I think maybe he "appeared a little better" last year because he had to assume a larger offensive load with Duncan hurt and Ginobili never really finding his groove last season. He was asked to shoot more, score more, pass more, etc. This season with Duncan healthy and recently Ginobili playing out of this world, he's taken a backseat somewhat. But his numbers are still around or better than his "Career" numbers.

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.

[exstatic]

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.
Not..in..this...offense.

[aaronstampler]

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.




He'll more than likely never average that due to the offense.

That, freakin, simple.

That's BS. The offense isn't the way it is because Pop is necessarily in love with it, it's because Pop has no choice. But by no means does Pop dislike pass first point guards. AJ averaged 7.4 assists in our first title year and that was with TWO post up players.

And don't forget Pop wanted to bring Jason Kidd here as well.

Pop has pretty much given up trying to get Tony to think "pass" but I don't think for a second he's thrilled about it. I don't recall him ever saying he was disappointed that Tony passed too much after a game that Parker wound up with 8 or 10 assists.

And please Kori for the love of God, don't drag out the famous "I want him to shoot 25 times a a game" quote from the Kings' series last year.

ADELMAN HAD MIKE BIBBY ON HIM. He had Artest on Manu. Under those circumstances, yes I'd want Tony shooting as much as possible too. But the match-ups aren't so extreme against most teams and we'll be facing a lot of coaches in May smarter than Rick Adelman.

[1Parker1]

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.


How can you expect his assists to go up? For the better part of the season, you had your top 3 bench players Horry, Finley, and Beno shooting around 30% or so. Even Bowen and Barry went through a tough shooting stretch there for a while. You can only rack up assists when the other person makes the basket and if you have teammates in a shooting slump, that's going to be hard to do.

[1Parker1]

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.



I wasn't trying to be funny. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

And please Kori for the love of God, don't drag out the famous "I want him to shoot 25 times a a game" quote from the Kings' series last year.When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.

[aaronstampler]

How can you expect his assists to go up? For the better part of the season, you had your top 3 bench players Horry, Finley, and Beno shooting around 30% or so. Even Bowen and Barry went through a tough shooting stretch there for a while. You can only rack up assists when the other person makes the basket and if you have teammates in a shooting slump, that's going to be hard to do.


The team is shooting the exact same FG %, down to the thousanth, as we did last year: .472.

This year we're averaging 98.4 points and 22.3 assists as a team compared to 95.6 points and 20.9 assists last year.

So yeah, I'm not going to buy that one.

[timvp]

Manu is averaging a career-low in most every assist related stat. Although you'd never read that on this forum.

Some Spurs fans realize that this offense is a low post oriented motion offense that won't allow any single player to rack up huge amount of assists. Other Spurs fans don't want to realize it.

[exstatic]

That's BS. The offense isn't the way it is because Pop is necessarily in love with it, it's because Pop has no choice. But by no means does Pop dislike pass first point guards. AJ averaged 7.4 assists in our first title year and that was with TWO post up players.
Doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, run a motion offense (which you seem not to understand how it operates at all), and that Nash would struggle to get 7 dimes here.

[aaronstampler]

When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.


Get back to me when he gets to the line and make them like Yao Ming. Yao 1.45 points per shot, Tony 1.26.

Tony's not as efficient as he appears because A) he doesn't get to the line enough and B) doesn't hit a lot of threes. His 1.26 PPS is only 5th on the team and right at the team's average overall.

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.

[T Park]

I wasn't trying to be funny

No I find it funny that you feel a player regresses after a couple bad games.



When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.


SHHHH :lol

[cherylsteele]

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.
Over a career so far.

Tony Parker is averaging 5.4 assists.
Compare that to James Silas' 3.8 career assist average....and Silas played in an era run and gun Spurs teams.
Many people consider him to be the best point guard the Spurs have ever had.

And you say Assist numbers should be higher? That is only part of what a point guard needs to do to be good. Just because TP's assists number aren't as high as other point guards doesn't mean he is not a good passer. Maybe he makes a pass that sets up the actual assist? That won't make it onto the stat sheet, but without that initial pass the actual assist may never be made.

I rank the point guards like this:
Tony Parker
Johnny Moore
James Silas
Johnny Dawkins
John Lucas

[aaronstampler]

Doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, run a motion offense (which you seem not to understand how it operates at all), and that Nash would struggle to get 7 dimes here.


I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

[T Park]

Get back to me when he gets to the line and make them like Yao Ming. Yao 1.45 points per shot, Tony 1.26.

Tony's not as efficient as he appears because A) he doesn't get to the line enough and B) doesn't hit a lot of threes. His 1.26 PPS is only 5th on the team and right at the team's average overall.

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.


Yeah, they would want Fracisco Elson to shoot before Tony parker.


What the fuck are you people drinking. Good god.

[T Park]

I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

well i have a color one, dont want a pinto, the double wide isn't that great, so you prob wont have any takers.

[aaronstampler]

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article.

[cherylsteele]

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article.

Since this is I team game I don't concern myself with individual averages too much....I concern myself with team averages.

[timvp]

I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

Nash didn't average 7 assists per game until he was more than two years older than Tony currently is.

You can send your possessions to:

21 SpursTalk Lane
San Antonio, TX 78250
In care of Beno Udrih

Thanks.

:smokin

[T Park]

:lmao

[T Park]

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article


check the team field goal percentage for that month as compared to others.

[ShoogarBear]

Manu is averaging a career-low in most every assist related stat. Although you'd never read that on this forum.That's because Finley and Tony don't try to hit their shots when Manu passes it to them.

Plus, I believe the official motto of the CoM is Just give the ball to Manu and get out of his way®.

[aaronstampler]

I really don't understand why you all are being so stubborn. You can check every reputable source you want, Hollinger, 82games.com, Wagesofwins, etc. You won't find one person who thinks critically and objectively about basketball that thinks Tony is having a better season this year than last.

It doesn't mean he's still not a great player. It just means he was better last season. How is that insulting? I don't get it. He went from being our best regular season player last year to 3rd best this year, that's all.

[T Park]

Funny, with parker is "objective" with Ginobili its "hate"

Typical :lol

[aaronstampler]

Nash didn't average 7 assists per game until he was more than two years older than Tony currently is.

You can send your possessions to:

21 SpursTalk Lane
San Antonio, TX 78250
In care of Beno Udrih

Thanks.

:smokin

You mean his second season as a full time starter? Tony's started how many years now? Five?

[ChumpDumper]

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.:lmao

Yes, opposing teams regard Francisco Elson as a bigger offensive threat and key their defenses on him.

[cherylsteele]

He went from being our best regular season player last year to 3rd best this year, that's all.
Well for starters....part of those three best players was hurt last year. Remember Tim had PF all year and his numbers were way down.

Also every player has fluctuations in their careers....even the very best of them.....I base it on overall play of the team and how they fit in with the other 11 players on the team.

[T Park]

Yes, opposing teams regard Francisco Elson as a bigger offensive threat and key their defenses on him.



Isn't he the one that gets double teamed in the post and has to kick it out to parker who then hogs the ball and shoots?

[1Parker1]

No I find it funny that you feel a player regresses after a couple bad games.



I love how you always give this sarcastic/defensive responses to people without actually using some substance to back it up. Here is Elson's stat-line since his amazing 18 rebound effort against the Pistons:

vs. Hawks:

2 points, 2 rebounds, and 5 fouls in 12 minutes.

vs. Sonics
6 points, 2 rebounds in 22 minutes

vs. Raptors
6 points, 5 rebounds in 28 minutes--but I'll give you this one because he played solid defense on Bosh.

vs. Magic
2 points, 2 rebounds in 16 minutes

vs. Houston
13 points, 8 rebounds in 33 minutes

vs. Kings
4 points, 2 rebounds, 5 fouls in 12 minutes


And these are just stats. More telling, his defense is still not where it should be at this point. He feel for the most basic fake pumps against the Kings and Corlos Williamson the other night. He still doesn't know how to set a halfway decent screen...the most basic staple of basketball defense. He's still too inconsistent for me.

Anyway, to each her own. But next time you want to comment on my post, try bringing some actual substance and facts to the table instead of sarcastic one-liners. :rolleyes

[T Park]

But next time you want to comment on my post, try bringing some actual substance and facts to the table instead of sarcastic one-liners

so now we can't give an opinion without stats?


Thank you forum police.

[T Park]

BTW, you give me the game against Bosh, but not Houston were he gets 13 and 8 :lmao

Whatever.

[aaronstampler]

Funny, with parker is "objective" with Ginobili its "hate"

Typical :lol


Um.. Manu has a +/- that's 87 points better than Tony despite Parker having logged over 500 more minutes on the floor with Duncan. :rolleyes

[T Park]

Notice that you totally avoided what I said.

[ChumpDumper]

Defenses would fear us if only we had Jamaal Tinsley.

[aaronstampler]

Tony's good, he's fine. But I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't trade him in two seconds for Chris Paul. And I bet Pop would too.

[ShoogarBear]

Gee, and you think he wouldn't trade Manu in two seconds for Dwyane Wade?

[ChumpDumper]

Quit betting what Pop would say. You haven't backed up one thing you claim he thinks.

I'm still waiting on your quote from him saying he's unhappy with Tony's passing.

[ChumpDumper]

You'd trade him for Jamaal Tinsley. Admit it.

[aaronstampler]

Gee, and you think he wouldn't trade Manu in two seconds for Dwyane Wade?

Wow you think Paul is that much better than Tony? That's quite a comparison.

[aaronstampler]

You'd trade him for Jamaal Tinsley. Admit it.


No, Paul is pretty much the only young point guard I'd rather have. Though Deron Williams is tempting. I think Calderon's going to be a pretty special player in a couple of years too, but he's already older than Tony.

[aaronstampler]

Quit betting what Pop would say. You haven't backed up one thing you claim he thinks.

I'm still waiting on your quote from him saying he's unhappy with Tony's passing.


There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more. CIA Pop denied it afterward. And you haven't backed up anything you've said with any credible stats.

[ShoogarBear]

Wow you think Paul is that much better than Tony? That's quite a comparison.What are you talking about? Chris Paul, taking into account his potential, is a top 3-5 point guard.

Are you actually admitting that any player could be that much better than St. Manu?

Just admit you hate Tony Parker, and we can all move on.

[ChumpDumper]

There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more. CIA Pop denied it afterward. And you haven't backed up anything you've said with any credible stats.11-0.

Kori already posted the stats relevant to the "much worse than last year" argument.

Do you need them repeated to you like a three year old?

[timvp]

No, Paul is pretty much the only young point guard I'd rather have. Though Deron Williams is tempting. I think Calderon's going to be a pretty special player in a couple of years too, but he's already older than Tony.
So what's the problem? The Spurs have the second best young point guard according to you.

Not all five players on the court can be named Manu.

[ChumpDumper]

There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more.Back when you said Tony was playing his best? Make up your mind.

[aaronstampler]

I don't hate any Spur. It's sad that this debate has devolved into this petty name-calling bitchfest. Everyone gets all defensive because I said Tony was a bit better last season than this. If you disagree it's your burden. The numbers are on my side. I'm done with it.

[anakha]

Let's see if there's even the remotest chance we can get this thread back on topic...

So, how bout that Jacque Vaughn, huh? :spin

[T Park]

I don't hate any Spur. It's sad that this debate has devolved into this petty name-calling bitchfest. Everyone gets all defensive because I said Tony was a bit better last season than this. If you disagree it's your burden. The numbers are on my side. I'm done with it.


Summarized as,

"I lost the arguement so Ill accuse others of namecalling, you meanies win"

[aaronstampler]

I didn't lose anything. I know I'm right. If y'all can't read statistics or refuse to then I can't make you.

[T Park]

:lol

You totally got owned by Shoogar and Chump just admit you were wrong and move on.

[aaronstampler]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA012307.05D.spursNOTES.20e932c.html

January 21, vs. Sixers. Not December, but still "a couple months ago" as I said. Can it.

[Cry Havoc]

I didn't lose anything. I know I'm right. If y'all can't read statistics or refuse to then I can't make you.

Yes, and because you can list statistics, you automatically feel that you have a superior argument which is infallible to the statements or opinions of others.

You're bitching about our PG play while we're on a 12 game winning streak and he's nursing an injury.

You're upset about one player's assist total on a team that has never, for one second, in the course of the past decade, been concerned about a single stat of a single player. This might be due to the fact that the Spurs are a team that transcends individual statistics in favor of team greatness, but who knows.

You're criticizing an all-star point guard putting together one of his finest seasons with an evolving jumpshot.


Most of all, anyone who responds to your criticisms without statistics are summarily dismissed by you as worthless and beneath a person of your intellect to offer rebuttal against beyond more stats.

And you wonder why this thread degenerated? Gee, it beats me too.

[aaronstampler]

The whole thread started with me making a joke about Vaughn's mentoring skills because I wrote that Tony and Beno were both a bit better last season. But everyone took it serious and ran with it. I don't understand why people here operate in such extremes. If I wish Tony passed more it means I "HATE" Tony. If I say he was a bit better last year it means I think he "sucks" this year. Everything is black/white on this board. It's ridiculous how you people are being.

Apparently Tony is supposed to just get better and better every year until he retires.

[SRJ]

I think aaronstampler is correct, strictly in a factual sense. You can demonstrate that Parker's production this year is inferior compared with his production last year. And I believe statistics are very useful - but I would like to make two points about statistics as they relate to the topic...uh, I mean, as they relate to Tony Parker. (Poor Jacque, a thread about him has nothing at all to do with him - the life of a journeyman)

My points:

1) Reading statistics is useful and beneficial, and so is observing on-court events. However, there are illusions and omissions in the statistical record, and also are there illusions and omissions in the observation of on-court events.

Statistical illusions relative to the "assist" exist when a team plays for fewer possessions; they exist when a team attempts to exploit matchups rather than run a set offense; they exist when a team elects to run an offense through a post player; they exist when the official scorer is generous or stingy when interpreting what an assist is; they exist when a teammate fails to convert a wonderful pass, and they exist when a player delivers a pass to teammate and that teammate makes a very difficult shot. There are other "assist" illusions that I don't care to take the time to list, and there are still other "assist" illusions that I'm not even aware of - but to be sure, a player's ability to produce the assist is subjected to many factors beyond his ability to pass the ball. I would even say that, because it is a statistic more reliant on interpretation than any other basic statistic (points, rebounds, steals, blocks), the assist is the most suspect statistic of the basic five.

But as I said before, observing on-court events has its own set of illusions and omissions. If for instance, I watch the Spurs play the Pistons twice in November (the only two regular season meetings of the year), how will that be useful in assessing the Spurs-Pistons Finals matchup in June? Months have passed. Players are banged up. More than likely, the two teams involved look very different in June than they did in May. Rotations are shorter and more stable. No doubt it would be more useful to compare the two teams' performances over the length of the season and the playoffs, but we're only observing on-court events, not the record. Again, continuing with my hypothetical scenario, we may recall how the Spurs played against the Mavericks compared with how the Pistons played against the Bulls in each team's conference final, but what does that tell us? The Pistons breezed through the Bulls and the Spurs struggled with the Mavericks, OK - but how does that provide any insight into the upcoming Finals? Detroit will be playing a tougher team than the Bulls, while the Spurs will be playing an easier opponent than the Mavericks, based upon records. Of course, we're only observing game action and not referencing the record, so in that scenario we don't know that Dallas had a better season than Detroit.

The point is, game and series prediction and player evaluation isn't easy - but it's a lot harder when unable or refusing to make use of one set of tools. Season ticket holders may not care a whit about stats and bloggers may not get to see more than a handful of games per year. In that case, stat-blind season ticket holders and bloggers without cable are at a disadvantage while trying to figure out how a season will play out - or if their team's second-round draft pick is a promising player.

2) A decline in performance is not particularly noteworthy if it's an insignificant decline.

aaronstampler pointed out, correctly, that Parker has shown decline in several categories this season. In 2006, Parker averaged 18.9 points on 54.8% from the field and 70.7% from the line. He also averaged 5.8 assists against 3.1 turnovers.

This season, he is down across the board save free throws: 18.4 points on 51.8% with 5.4 assists. Decline in stats, sure - but what has this decline cost the Spurs? How many losses does .5 points, .3 assists, and .03 percent in shooting account for? (Considering how many factors are involved with the outcome of a ball game, my own guess is much less than one loss) If these meager declines contribute significantly to Spurs losses, does his improvement free throw percentage (78%) and turnover average (2.6) not offset at least some of that?

Now if Parker is averaging 14 points on 44% with 4 assists to 2 turnovers, maybe then we have something to discuss. But for me, Parker has been his usual self plus a few more bumps and bruises. In fact, his virtually identical performance compared with last year is notable considering the fact he has taken a few more lumps.

Watch the games? Absolutely. Examine the record? Absolutely. But always remember not to put too much faith into either one - the records and the naked eye can both tell lies.

[ShoogarBear]

All you need to do is a search on posts by aaronstampler with the word Parker. They speak for themselves.

[cherylsteele]

Yes, and because you can list statistics, you automatically feel that you have a superior argument which is infallible to the statements or opinions of others.

You're bitching about our PG play while we're on a 12 game winning streak and he's nursing an injury.

You're upset about one player's assist total on a team that has never, for one second, in the course of the past decade, been concerned about a single stat of a single player. This might be due to the fact that the Spurs are a team that transcends individual statistics in favor of team greatness, but who knows.

You're criticizing an all-star point guard putting together one of his finest seasons with an evolving jumpshot.


Most of all, anyone who responds to your criticisms without statistics are summarily dismissed by you as worthless and beneath a person of your intellect to offer rebuttal against beyond more stats.

And you wonder why this thread degenerated? Gee, it beats me too.
Of course...aaronstampler will list stats and stuff and ignore the bigger picture...I posted stats compring to another Spurs' great and he ignored it totally.
I posted a statistical comparison to Parker and James Silas (who was revered by many Spurs fans. Parker compared quite favorably to him with better asisst numbers and Parker's career has really just begun....and this was over Silas' total career. On top of that Silas played in an area of the Spurs' run and gun where many NBA teams averaged over 100 points and just a few.
Another reason TP's assists are lower is because of the offense the Spurs run which alot Tim....if the Hornets had a player like Timmy and to some extent Manu...I bet Paul's assists would be lower as well.

Actually...other than assists....if some of the other Spurs were more consistent this year....TP's assist total would be higher too. Parker is in the same class as Chris Paul.
Here are stats from this year.

Chris Paul:
PPG 17.1
RPG 4.1
APG 8.8
SPG 1.89
BPG .02
FG% .431
FT% .808
3P% .314
MPG 36.7
To's 2.59

Tony Parker:
PPG 18.4
RPG 3.3
APG 5.5
SPG 1.07
BPG .07
FG% .519
FT% .779
3P% .438
MPG 32.7
TO's 2.60

Parker's FG% is loads better that Paul's...and most of this is playing 4 min fewer than Paul per game.

You want stats aaronstampler....here's one that IMO is more important than individual stats. This is a team sport so I will post the team's averages.
Spurs 22.3 asst/gm
Hornets 18.2 asst/gm


Would I be disappointed if the Spurs had Paul instead of Parker? Not really.
Would I trade Parker for Paul? No way.

[aaronstampler]

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.

[whottt]

Aaron...Pop routinely describes Tony as a "stud".

Also, your take isn't exactly cutting edge with regards to Parker's assists...it's been argued about for years.

Go talk to IceColdBrewski sometime.

It's not that people are getting defensive, it's that your take is one that gets destroyed annually....


Check some of the older threads...you are not the first to make this claim.

[ducks]

tp had to do more last year because td and manu were hurt alot
he is having a better year this year even though his stats do not say that much

his outside shot is much better

[Cry Havoc]

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.


And so obviously, by extension, this means he will be equally as worthless in the playoffs. :depressed

[ChumpDumper]

Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not:lol

Tony makes no difference for this team whatsoever now? You're simply an idiot.

[1Parker1]

Chump, why are you listed as a Hawks fan? Did you lose a bet?

[ChumpDumper]

Someone's gotta be one.

[1Parker1]

Someone's gotta be one.


:lol

[cherylsteele]

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.
Hmmm.....maybe it is because he more last because NVE was his backup mainly and did practically nothing. Along with Beno. This year Vaughn has been a serviceable backup and Beno has played better of late. Plus the reason Tim was so low last year was because he was hurt or do you selectively omit that part of it to try to improve your argument?

Were did you get those numbers? Do you have a link to the site?

[aaronstampler]

82games.com

[aaronstampler]

:lol

Tony makes no difference for this team whatsoever now? You're simply an idiot.

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

Chump is right, you can throw statistical data around all you want but ultimately your work is an inexplicable phenomena... if you are asserting that this team would be better or no different without tony then 1) you don't watch many Spurs games or 2) you posses no common sense whatsoever... where pray tell, would the Spurs find a replacement for Tony's 19 ppg and 5.5 apg?

[Cry Havoc]

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Number jockeys are horrible coaches, and this is an example why. You simply don't understand the game, because you think the numbers are the paragon of reason in sports. You choose to see the flaws in Parker's numbers rather than his improvement with his jumper and his decreased need to dominate the possession during our offensive sets, which we needed last year. You probably (if old enough) were one of the few people calling out Scottie Pippen for being less effective when Jordan came out of retirement. Cause we all know Pippen sucked after MJs return. :lol

Parker's numbers are slightly down. Congratulations on "proving" that. The sad fact is that every other Spurs fan is trying to get you to understand why, and you continually bury your head in the sand and mutter, "But his numbers are down, so he's playing worse this year!"

People aren't calling you names because you're listing stats. they're slinging mud at you because that's the extent of your repertoire. Explanations have been offered to you, and you choose to shake your head and point at the stats and continually mutter about how he's declining in effectiveness. You don't listen to anyone except a box score, and it's annoying people for wasting our time when you only want to trumpet your ability to copy-paste numbers from nbastatistics.com.

Well, guess what. Spurs fans only look at one stat. For the past twelve games, it's been all in the first column and nothing in the second.

[aaronstampler]

You probably (if old enough) were one of the few people calling out Scottie Pippen for being less effective when Jordan came out of retirement. Cause we all know Pippen sucked after MJs return. <<

See there's that word again. Sucked. I have not once used a word like that in this entire thread. You people are the one who throw out black/white words like best, worst, love, hate and sucks. I haven't done that. I've pointed out numerous times that I think Tony is playing well generally and that I had no problem with his All-Star selection. What is your issue here?

Secondly I find it disengunuous for you to suggest that the reason for Tony's numbers dropping is because his teammates are carrying more of the load. Not only is Tony's averaging more FG attempts this year than last (ooh sorry, I used a statistic again) but as one of your cohorts pointed out several Spurs like Horry, Finley and Bruce have shot rather poorly this year.

The fact of the matter is Tony is using more possessions this year than ever. He's just not as efficient with those possessions as he has been in the past. The major reason why is he's not getting to the line enough and since he doesn't shoot many threes, his improved FT% hasn't compensated enough. It's great that he's improved his jumper a little, but at the end of the day it's still a 2 point field goal and not nearly as likely to be successful as a lay-up attempt. And lay-up attempts get you to the foul line. Trust me, it doesn't upset any coach in the league when Tony is casting up 18 footers, regardless of if they're falling or not.

if you are asserting that this team would be better or no different without tony then 1) you don't watch many Spurs games or 2) you posses no common sense whatsoever... where pray tell, would the Spurs find a replacement for Tony's 19 ppg and 5.5 apg?>>

I find it ironic that you can throw out such an obtuse statement and accuse me of being the one without common sense. Whenever any player from any sport misses a game it's not like they're replaced by thin air. When Yao got hurt for the Rockets it's not like they played 4 on 5 for 30 games and automatically sacrificed 25 points and 12 rebounds. Sports don't work that way. It's up to the next man down the ladder to step up. Tony's shot attempts don't magically go *poof!* when he's gone. They just because shot attempts for someone else. And I'm pretty certain that our offense didn't get 19 points or 5.5 assists worse in his absence. Actually we've scored 98.3 a game in the three games he's missed, so I think that's pretty good. I'm not saying Tony won't be a difference maker or a critical player for this team's success in the playoffs. I'm just saying he hasn't been thus far and it seems that a large portion of this board is overrating him, perhaps as a backlash for all the Manu worship (guilty as charged there).

Well, guess what. Spurs fans only look at one stat. For the past twelve games, it's been all in the first column and nothing in the second.<<

Finally, your implication that I can't be a Spurs fan because I look at the game differently than you is pretty offensive. I wasn't aware that there was some kind of application form I had to fill out telling me what the rules are to being a Spurs fan. You've got some people on this board who want Ron Artest on the team and as far as I know, they're allowed to be Spurs fans. Everyone's different. Every game the Spurs play I root for them to win, and I'm pretty sure that's the extent of all I need to do to qualify as a Spurs fan.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not saying Tony won't be a difference maker or a critical player for this team's success in the playoffs.No, you just say he makes no difference now.

[aaronstampler]

so far, not so much, no. Especially during this winning streak. I'm telling you, his best month was December.

[ChumpDumper]

But he made no difference then either according to you, so what does that matter?

[Bruno]

People should learn to read stats :

1) Parker best statiscal year is this year not last year. His FG% is maybe 3% lower and he averages something like 1% less points and assists per minutes but in the same time he average 0.5 less turnover per game and it overtakes all other stats. His PER (who is the most accurate stat) has raised from 22.3 to 22.5.

2) Comparing +/- stats when Parker is on the court and of the court is quite stupid because when Parker isn't on the court, it's either when Spurs played against the opposite second team or it's during garbage time. If people aren't sold about that : last year Spurs have allowed 101.3pts/100poss with Bowen on the court (98.6 when he was off the court), Spurs have allowed 97.9 pts/100 poss when Barry was on the court ( 101.7 when he was off the court). So Barry is a better defender than Bowen.

[ShoogarBear]

Since people are throwing around numbers: where is the evidence that PER is the "most accurate stat"?

[cherylsteele]

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.
according to 82games.com Ely has a +33.9...maybe he should start instead of Tim if you want to go by stats alone. :rolleyes

[aaronstampler]

People should learn to read stats :

1) Parker best statiscal year is this year not last year. His FG% is maybe 3% lower and he averages something like 1% less points and assists per minutes but in the same time he average 0.5 less turnover per game and it overtakes all other stats. His PER (who is the most accurate stat) has raised from 22.3 to 22.5.

2) Comparing +/- stats when Parker is on the court and of the court is quite stupid because when Parker isn't on the court, it's either when Spurs played against the opposite second team or it's during garbage time. If people aren't sold about that : last year Spurs have allowed 101.3pts/100poss with Bowen on the court (98.6 when he was off the court), Spurs have allowed 97.9 pts/100 poss when Barry was on the court ( 101.7 when he was off the court). So Barry is a better defender than Bowen.


Your numbers are ridiculously inaccurate. I'm looking at the numbers right now. Last year they allowed 105.8 per 100 possessions with Brent on the floor and 97.4 when he was off. With Bruce they allowed 98.1 per 100 possessions when he was on, 106.3 when he was off. Thus, Bruce was, pretty safely, a better defender than Brent.

[aaronstampler]

Since people are throwing around numbers: where is the evidence that PER is the "most accurate stat"?


I'm looking at Hollinger's PER numbers and he's got Parker doing better last year. 20.89 last year, 20.72 this year. In fact, Tony is doing worse than Hollinger's projection for him because quite reasonably he was expecting Tony to improve this year, not get worse.

[aaronstampler]

according to 82games.com Ely has a +33.9...maybe he should start instead of Tim if you want to go by stats alone. :rolleyes

Small sample sizes much?...

doofus.

[aaronstampler]

But he made no difference then either according to you, so what does that matter?


As I've said many times, Tony played quite fabulously in December. How many times do I have to repeat myself? If Tony played like that every month he'd be our best player.

[ChumpDumper]

But for the year, if you ask "any NBA coach," they'll say it doesn't matter if Parker is on the court or not, right?

[aaronstampler]

But for the year, if you ask "any NBA coach," they'll say it doesn't matter if Parker is on the court or not, right?


And for over a hundred years baseball managers have batted their speediest guy leadoff, regardless of whether he could get on base at a decent clip or not. What's your point? Coaches are usually the last to learn about incorporating new statistical data.


I suppose when we've got a hundred people here screaming our heads off about not using smallball because it hurts the defense and the rebounding, that's acceptable but saying that so far Tony hasn't been as valuable as last year is like eating some sacred cow.

[Bruno]

Your numbers are ridiculously inaccurate. I'm looking at the numbers right now. Last year they allowed 105.8 per 100 possessions with Brent on the floor and 97.4 when he was off. With Bruce they allowed 98.1 per 100 possessions when he was on, 106.3 when he was off. Thus, Bruce was, pretty safely, a better defender than Brent.

ridiculously inaccurate :lmao

http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAS6D.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAS9D.HTM

[ChumpDumper]

Coaches are usually the last to learn about incorporating new statistical data.:lol It couldn't be that it in fact does matter that Tony Parker is out there and coaches actually consider him quite important? Nah. Some website said he makes no difference, so the website must be believed!
I suppose when we've got a hundred people here screaming our heads off about not using smallball because it hurts the defense and the rebounding, that's acceptable but saying that so far Tony hasn't been as valuable as last year is like eating some sacred cow.You're saying he does nothing at all positively for this team. That's very different.

[SRJ]

And for over a hundred years baseball managers have batted their speediest guy leadoff, regardless of whether he could get on base at a decent clip or not. What's your point? Coaches are usually the last to learn about incorporating new statistical data.

Interesting, but when people criticize that style of managing, there is considerable evidence demonstrating that the low OBP at the top of the order costs runs. I don't think there's any convincing evidence to suggest that Parker's play this season has been costly compared with his play last year.

[aaronstampler]

ridiculously inaccurate :lmao

http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAS6D.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAS9D.HTM


My apologies. You got me there. I was looking at this year's numbers by mistake. I can admit when I'm wrong. I guess Bruce really had an off year last year defensively.

[aaronstampler]

:lol It couldn't be that it in fact does matter that Tony Parker is out there and coaches actually consider him quite important? Nah. Some website said he makes no difference, so the website must be believed!You're saying he does nothing at all positively for this team. That's very different.


He is very important when he plays the right way. When he shoots lay-ups and gets to the FT line with some regularity, he's important. When he passes the ball he's important. When he's shooting 18 foot jumpers he's remarkably ordinary. It's a credit to him that he's worked on the jumper so much that it's gone from awful to ordinary, but the better he gets at it the more it hurts us because it'll never be as efficient as a lay-up attempt and getting to the line consistently. The better he shoots, the less lay-ups he attempts and thus less FT attempts he gets.

How hard is this for you to understand? Him shooting a long two is one of the worst things we can do on offense outside of a turnover. And by "him" I would say the same thing for any player on the Spurs. Perimeter jumpers = death. Either shoot threes or go inside.

Pretend you're a coach, which one of these options sound most desirable to you when the Spurs have the ball.

A) Parker pass to Duncan
B) Parker pass to Manu
C) Parker pass to Barry
D) Parker lay-up attempt
E) Parker pass to Elson for a lay-up/dunk attempt
F) Parker 20 footer.

To me this seems like a rather easy choice. Whenever you have a good scorer a long 2 point jump shot is least efficient thing he could possibly do with a possession unless he hits just a ridiculous % of them.

I'm not saying Parker hasn't been a positive, but in his 62% of minutes played he's been no more of a positive than Vaughn/Udrih (mostly Vaughn).

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao Now you are bagging on Parker for actually getting BETTER. You are clearly insane.

You would prefer Tony Parker never shoot a jumper ever and let the opposing team pack the lane permanently and double Duncan at will since there is no way in hell you would allow Tony to try to open up the defense with a 17-footer. The internets told you so.

[SRJ]

He is very important when he plays the right way. When he shoots lay-ups and gets to the FT line with some regularity, he's important. When he passes the ball he's important. When he's shooting 18 foot jumpers he's remarkably ordinary. It's a credit to him that he's worked on the jumper so much that it's gone from awful to ordinary, but the better he gets at it the more it hurts us because it'll never be as efficient as a lay-up attempt and getting to the line consistently.

How hard is this for you to understand? Him shooting a long two is one of the worst things we can do on offense outside of a turnover.

Pretend you're a coach, which one of these options sound most desirable to you when the Spurs have the ball.

A) Parker pass to Duncan
B) Parker pass to Manu
C) Parker pass to Barry
D) Parker lay-up attempt
E) Parker pass to Elson for a lay-up/dunk attempt
F) Parker 20 footer.

To me this seems like a rather easy choice. Whenever you have a good scorer a long 2 point jump shot is least efficient thing he could possibly do with a possession unless he hits just a ridiculous % of them.

I don't think Tony plans on doing anything other than option D, but there are five players on the other team doing their damndest to prevent option D. In fact, I'm guessing that in games against quality defenses, options C and F on that list are the only ones consistently available.

You'd always rather play closer to the basket, but you don't always get that choice. Hence, you hone that jumpshot. If '07 Tony was on the '04 Spurs, there is no Derek Fisher play. Back then, the Lakers packed in that defense and the Spurs couldn't make them pay from the outside.

[aaronstampler]

If he's "better" then how come he's shooting "worse?"

More shot attempts, less PPG.
Less Points Per Shot than last year.

It's one thing to shoot them when you're wide open and there's two seconds left on the shot clock. It's another when you just dribble for ten seconds, decide eh what the hell and jack it up. Usually there are better options. When a defense holds a team to a perimeter jump shot, it's like winning that possession.

Or to put it another way, I'd like you to take a crack at explaining to me why our per 100 possession scoring drops only marginally from Tony (110.4) to Jacque (110.0) to Beno (109.1), when the last two have shot like crap all year.

Could it be that when they're in the game that more efficient scorers take a larger % of the shots? Nah, that's crazy talk. Remember, when Tony doesn't play we lose 19 points and 5.5 assists!

[boutons_]

"let the opposing team pack the lane permanently and double Duncan at will since there is no way in hell you would allow Tony to try to open up the defense with a 17-footer"

Faced with no layups made at 45%+, Tony, etc, start taking jumpers, and hitting them at a good rate, say, 38% for 3Gs, and 41% for 2Gs. That's a lot less points and FTA, combined with the the Spurs shitty offensive rebounding, making the game harder to win.

What if the defense said "shutdown the paint, even at the cost of yielding uncontested jumpers"? This is what the 04 Lakers did to rip off 4 straight W and eliminate the Spurs.

[aaronstampler]

I don't think Tony plans on doing anything other than option D, but there are five players on the other team doing their damndest to prevent option D. In fact, I'm guessing that in games against quality defenses, options C and F on that list are the only ones consistently available.

You'd always rather play closer to the basket, but you don't always get that choice. Hence, you hone that jumpshot. If '07 Tony was on the '04 Spurs, there is no Derek Fisher play. Back then, the Lakers packed in that defense and the Spurs couldn't make them pay from the outside.


That's a fair point. '04 Tony didn't have a lot of help. And the '07 Spurs would be worse off with the '04 Tony as well. But option C has proved to be an excellent option so far this year. Brent's getting like over 1.5 points for every shot he attempts. The offense should do all it can to get him more open looks from 3.

[aaronstampler]

"let the opposing team pack the lane permanently and double Duncan at will since there is no way in hell you would allow Tony to try to open up the defense with a 17-footer"

Faced with no layups made at 45%+, Tony, etc, start taking jumpers, and hitting them at a good rate, say, 38% for 3Gs, and 41% for 2Gs. That's a lot less points and FTA, combined with the the Spurs shitty offensive rebounding, making the harder to win.

What if the defense said "shutdown the paint, even at the cost of yielding uncontested jumpers"? This is what the 04 Lakers did to rip off 4 straight W and eliminate the Spurs.


The '04 Spurs lost mainly because of a horrible timekeeper. Outside of that they lost because they had woeful ball movement when it mattered and couldn't make enough threes. All their perimeter shooters (Hedo, Bowen, Manu, Tony, Horry) deserve their share of the blame on that.

[ChumpDumper]

It's funny, because Tony's scoring production per minute is up this season.

And he has the second highest three point percentage on this team.

For someone who believes in stats so religiously, one can only conclude your exclusion of a 43% increase in accuracy from beyond the arc is an act of extreme ignorance or mindless hate.

[ChumpDumper]

couldn't make enough threes. All their perimeter shooters (Hedo, Bowen, Manu, Tony, Horry) deserve their share of the blame on that.But the fact that Tony shoots better from outside won't help at all now.

Why did he even try....

[ShoogarBear]

FUN WITH STATISTICS

2006-2007 Stats from NBA.com Hotzones
0-5 feet: Parker 270/426 = 0.633, Ginobili = 162/288 = 0.563
5-15 feet: Parker 40/100 =0.400, Ginobili = 34/81 = 0.420
15-22 feet: Parker 130/317 = 0.410, Ginobili - 25/74 = 0.338
3-pointers: Parker 14/32 = 0.438, Ginobili 103/243 = 0.423

So . . . which one is hurting his team the most by shooting too much outside of his range?

QUESTION.

[RADECK]

If Beno is playing infrequently i would say Jackie is the same! He DIDNT show why he should be back up for TP! And Jackie can forget to play in playoff, maybe 5 mins.

[Nikos]

FUN WITH STATISTICS

2006-2007 Stats from NBA.com Hotzones
0-5 feet: Parker 270/426 = 0.633, Ginobili = 162/288 = 0.563
5-15 feet: Parker 40/100 =0.400, Ginobili = 34/81 = 0.420
15-22 feet: Parker 130/317 = 0.410, Ginobili - 25/74 = 0.338
3-pointers: Parker 14/32 = 0.438, Ginobili 103/243 = 0.423

So . . . which one is hurting his team the most by shooting too much outside of his range?

QUESTION.

Ginobili takes and makes many more threes. Ditto for FT's.

Being a 33% three point shooter is about the same as a 50% 2pt maker if you want to get technical. You can argue that it is easier for a team to get into a flow with a person who makes more 2 pointers, but no need to quibble on this.

Ginobili has a True Shooting Percentage of 61.2%, and Parker is at 56.4%. Manu is a more efficient scorer. But he does play less minutes. So Manu's value is inflated a bit considering he carries less of the load over the course of the 82 game season.

[ArgSpursFan]

FUN WITH STATISTICS

2006-2007 Stats from NBA.com Hotzones
0-5 feet: Parker 270/426 = 0.633, Ginobili = 162/288 = 0.563
5-15 feet: Parker 40/100 =0.400, Ginobili = 34/81 = 0.420
15-22 feet: Parker 130/317 = 0.410, Ginobili - 25/74 = 0.338
3-pointers: Parker 14/32 = 0.438, Ginobili 103/243 = 0.423

So . . . which one is hurting his team the most by shooting too much outside of his range?

QUESTION.

You should´ve puted Bowen´s 2pts % and 3 pts %.
them I´ll tell you who is hurting the spurs on the offensive end

[ShoogarBear]

Ginobili takes and makes many more threes. So? Parker hits a higher percentage. Should he be taking more?


Ditto for FT's.
Manu takes more FTs, no question. Is that because he actually draws more contact or because he gets more calls? Do the refs belong to the Church of Manu?



Ginobili has a True Shooting Percentage of 61.2%, and Parker is at 56.4%. Manu is a more efficient scorer. But he does play less minutes. So Manu's value is inflated a bit considering he carries less of the load over the course of the 82 game season.Actually, the only point behind my post was not to compare the two, but to address the silly argument that somehow Tony's jumpshooting is hurting the team.

[aaronstampler]

I'm aware of his 3% percentage. He should take more if he can all of a sudden make them now. I stick to my position, a long 2 is one of the worst things an offense can do outside of turning it over or giving it to a guy with a horrendous shooting %. That goes for ANYBODY ON ANY TEAM.

And before you accuse me of making dumb arguments, you just had Shoogar Bear saying the refs like Manu more. Talk about subjective commentary.


But so far Tony has taken 317 bad shots compared to 74 for Manu.

[Spurminator]

But so far Tony has taken 317 bad shots compared to 74 for Manu.


:bang

[ShoogarBear]

RIF.


Actually, the only point behind my post was not to compare the two, but to address the silly argument that somehow Tony's jumpshooting is hurting the team.

[aaronstampler]

I mean, I just don't understand why the mathematics of this is so complicated for you people.

Say you want Tony to score an X number of points, whether it's 15, 20, 30 whatever.

It will take Tony more shots to score X then it will take Tim, Manu or Brent. What part of that statement confuses you?

So perhaps those other guys should take more shots and Tony less shots, right? It actually hurts us double. Not only is a less efficient scorer taking shots, but that means the more efficient scorers aren't taking them.

Really, let me know when any of this starts to sink in...

The team does not need Tony to score a lot to be successful. They need him to make good decisions, get the lay-ups when they're they're and keep everyone involved.

For example, I think the best offensive half we played all year was the 1st half against the Clippers in SA. We had 65 points, something like 33 in the 1st, 32 in the second. Tony took one field goal and had 12 assists. The Clippers didn't do anything weird or different on defense, but Tony just felt like passing the ball for whatever reason. Maybe Pop told him to before the game, who knows?

In the 3rd quarter, despite how well everyone else was passing, Tony got bored with the passing and took 9 shots in one quarter. We scored 25 points that period.

After the game was over, he was quoted as saying something like "The defense was forcing me to pass, and guys were hitting shots, so I decided to keep passing."

That's right ladies and germs, Tony Parker has to be FORCED to pass the ball. As a point guard. Things like that kinda get on my nerves.

Is it any wonder why Pop finally decided to bench Manu? Tony should never be the 1st or 2nd option when the big three are on the court together, but for the majority of the season that's exactly what was happening, and it hurt the offense. How many times had we seen Ginobili check out of the game at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter with like 1 or 0 shot attempts?

But now, with Ginobili playing half his minutes with Vaughn, it's better for everyone involved and magical coincedence, we're on a big ass winning streak.

So once again, I stand firm on my opinion that Tony either should pass more and shoot less or find a way to be an efficient enough scorer where it makes a noticable difference whether he's out there or Vaughn is.

[T Park]

here I was accused the other night of "starting" anti Manu stuff, and I retored, Ginobili fans do it just as much or more.


Example A here.


Thank you.

[B]Apologies acceped[B]

[SRJ]

I mean, I just don't understand why the mathematics of this is so complicated for you people.

Say you want Tony to score an X number of points, whether it's 15, 20, 30 whatever.

It will take Tony more shots to score X then it will take Tim, Manu or Brent. What part of that statement confuses you?

It's not confusing, but your suggestion is that the statistics are infallible. As I said before, they can lie to you as easily as the human eye can.

Do you really think Brent Barry will continue to produce with that sort of efficiency if he gets more and more shots? Defenses adjust. They'll catch on after a while, they won't double off of him, and he'll be forced to put it on the floor where he is a lot less effective.

Brent is efficient because teams are geared to stop the Big Three and he's been successful with his opportunities. I'd rather it stay this way because if we went to Barry more often, I believe his production would decrease after more defensive attention and what's more, with more floor time, Barry's Van Exel-style defense gets exploited even more.



For example, I think the best offensive half we played all year was the 1st half against the Clippers in SA. We had 65 points, something like 33 in the 1st, 32 in the second. Tony took one field goal and had 12 assists. The Clippers didn't do anything weird or different on defense, but Tony just felt like passing the ball for whatever reason. Maybe Pop told him to before the game, who knows?

In the 3rd quarter, despite how well everyone else was passing, Tony got bored with the passing and took 9 shots in one quarter. We scored 25 points that period.

After the game was over, he was quoted as saying something like "The defense was forcing me to pass, and guys were hitting shots, so I decided to keep passing."

That's right ladies and germs, Tony Parker has to be FORCED to pass the ball. As a point guard. Things like that kinda get on my nerves.

Clearly, the defense was geared to stop his scoring in the first half and passing more was how he adjusted. I can gather further that the Clippers changed their defense in the third quarter, and Parker changed his approach to counter the Clipper defense.

I sincerely doubt he got bored with passing. You think too highly of this team and its players if you believe they can just play any way they want, any time they want. Michael Jordan could do that, Wilt Chamberlain could do that, but not too many guys can just play however they feel like playing.

By the way, the Clipper defense adjusted at the half and we still scored 25 points in the third? I'd say the Clippers couldn't play a lick of defense that night.


Is it any wonder why Pop finally decided to bench Manu? Tony should never be the 1st or 2nd option when the big three are on the court together, but for the majority of the season that's exactly what was happening, and it hurt the offense. How many times had we seen Ginobili check out of the game at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter with like 1 or 0 shot attempts?

Good for Pop. It's the classic case of maximizing the talent. Asking Tony Parker to play like John Stockton is asking too much of him, so by playing Manu with the second unit, we find a way to get enough shots for the Big Three. This is an indictment of nothing, and instead Pop deserves credit for finding a way to get the most out of the roster.


But now, with Ginobili playing half his minutes with Vaughn, it's better for everyone involved and magical coincedence, we're on a big ass winning streak.

The defense has improved substantially. This has at least as much to do with the streak IMO.


So once again, I stand firm on my opinion that Tony either should pass more and shoot less or find a way to be an efficient enough scorer where it makes a noticable difference whether he's out there or Vaughn is.

So the level of play doesn't diminish when the back-up point guard is in the game, and this is a bad thing how?

[cherylsteele]

Small sample sizes much?...

doofus.
You are the one who bases there opinions on numbers. You are ignoring numbers that everyone else is posting. You complain about TP's number being down....so when I show the absurdity of reading numbers only you call me a doofus. I guess you did not see the smiley I had posted....since you missed it in my last post here it is again: :rolleyes

You only look at numbers to try to support your argument but you have totally ignored mine and others post and facts. You don't seem to understand the big picture.

[aaronstampler]

You only look at numbers to try to support your argument but you have totally ignored mine and others post and facts. You don't seem to understand the big picture.<<

I understand the big picture to this extent. Tony is a good player, with the potential to be a great player, but his understanding of the game still has a good ways to go and does not seem to be progressing. Taking (and making) more jump shots is a step in the wrong direction in his overall understanding and development of the game, IMO. It's a nice weapon to be able to use once in a while, or in an emergency. But making the perimeter jumper the bread and butter of your game is dangerous for anyone, and more so for a point guard. There are reasons people make fun of Baron Davis and Stephon Marbury you know.

At the end of the day it all depends on what school of thought you belong to regarding basketball. I'm not as extreme yet as some basketball mathematicians who will tell you that David Lee is more valuable than Carmelo or that Iverson is a below average player, but I won't ignore all these new efficiency stats either.

Some people will see Kobe Bryant for example finish 13 for 30 with 33 points, and they'll say, "Wow, 33 points, Kobe had a great game."

Others will note that 33 points on 30 shots really isn't anything worth writing home about and he probably wasted a lot of possessions.

I belong to the second camp. That's really as clearly as I can put it.

This bias of mine isn't aimed solely at Tony Parker, just so you understand. Any player who shoots a lot of jumpers, but not threes and doesn't get to the FT line much falls in the same category. The only reason Wade is an efficient scorer is because he gets to the line so much.

[T Park]

So as Parker continues to shoot 54% you'lll hate that.

Makes sense :lmao

[aaronstampler]

See there's that magic word again, "hate." I haven't used it. I swear TPark without words like love, hate, best, word and most of all, SUCK, you would not be able to write a complete sentence or form a complete thought.

[T Park]

Clearly...

You keep saying this and that and all that horsecrap....

Yet, you continue to rag on Tony Parker like hes some 28 year old Rasho Nesterovic.

Pathetic.

[cherylsteele]

Taking (and making) more jump shots is a step in the wrong direction in his overall understanding and development of the game, IMO.
So you are saying that his jumper is not important.....wasn't that one of the big criticisms people had in the past? Teams could shut down the lane keeping him from making points in the paint and thus making him less effective? He makes those jumpers and it opens everything up for him and the whole team.

[aaronstampler]

Clearly...

You keep saying this and that and all that horsecrap....

Yet, you continue to rag on Tony Parker like hes some 28 year old Rasho Nesterovic.

Pathetic.

yup, because I totally think Rasho belonged in the last two All-Star games as well. He wuz robbed I tells ya. Grow up.

[aaronstampler]

So you are saying that his jumper is not important.....wasn't that one of the big criticisms people had in the past? Teams could shut down the lane keeping him from making points in the paint and thus making him less effective? He makes those jumpers and it opens everything up for him and the whole team.

All making jumpers does is encourage Tony to take more jumpers. If it opens everything up for him and the whole team as you say then how come his assist numbers aren't up any or the team's scoring with him in the line-up isn't any better? All Tony shooting does is help Tony's ego. He'd have to hit like 65 or 70% of his jumpers for teams to even think about defending him any differently in the playoffs.

As far as his personal scoring goes, only two things will make him more effective: 1) learning how to get fouled, 2) making threes.

If the lane is so bogged down that Tony can't drive, I have a novel solution to the problem. Pass ze ball.

Every summer we hear ad nauseum about Tony improving his shooting stroke, improving his FTs, improving this that and the other. It's always scoring, scoring, scoring. I'm waiting for the summer where Tony works on being a point guard.... Not gonna hold my breath.

I mean look at it this way. You guys keep telling me that the reason he doesn't average many assists is because the ball isn't in his hand enough with all the dump ins to Timmy and all the isos for Manu.

Isn't that a part of the problem? Pop feels he has to specifically call plays for the other guys or else they won't get the ball enough within the natural flow of the offense. When Tony has the ball, Tony keeps the ball and Tony shoots the ball. That's kind of a dangerous mentality for a point guard. Right, right... "attack mode." Spare me.

[cherylsteele]

All making jumpers does is encourage Tony to take more jumpers. If it opens everything up for him and the whole team as you say then how come his assist numbers aren't up any or the team's scoring with him in the line-up isn't any better?
So....you want him to be a one-dimensional player? That is not too bright.
Maybe if the team would hit some open shots his assists numbers would go up.

Like I said before...and you ignored me.....I compared his stats to James Silas.

Tony Parker is averaging 5.4 assists over his career.
Compare that to James Silas' 3.8 career assist average.

Keep in mind that Silas played in the era of the Spurs' run-n-gun.

Assists only, don't make the point guard.
You need to ask yourself;
Is the team running smoothly with TP at the point? IMO...yes.
Is the team getting better with him? yes.....you are one of the few who think differently.
I don't see anything to indicate that the coaches are upset or disappointed in Tony's game. He is generally doing what is asked of him. He trying to be a complete player who just happens to be a point guard too.

You seem to forget that this is a team game and you get way too caught up in just stats. Put down the box score and actually watch the game sometime.