Respect...

[SpursDynasty]

First of all, I read a post about Mavericks haters. Let me explain it all here.

Yes, yes, yes a million times over....the Mavericks did remarkable things before the Finals, and after the Finals with this season, but not IN the Finals 2006. I think that is why a lot of us have a hard time accepting that Dallas may be for real. It doesn't matter if they go 82-0 this season, they didn't win last year's Finals and a lot of us, myself included, aren't convinced. They have beaten teams such as SA, Utah, Phoenix, and today Detroit, and yet, the Finals loss will be there until they reverse that outcome, if they can.

I also think that too many teams are giving the Mavericks too much respect for the wrong reasons. They became the talk of the league for defeating SA in the semis last year. I've never seen a team get so much respect for just getting past the semifinals. Dallas, with the exception of Devin Harris, is still mostly a jump shooting team. I'm sorry, that's what I am observing. That is why once they reached the Finals, where everything is on the line, and everything tightens up, those shots stopped falling.

I say Detroit, Miami, or SA as the NBA Champs this year. It's all about defense, not jump shooting.

We have yet to see if Dallas can prove "Mav haters" wrong.

This is all really getting old, and it doesn't matter what we all argue about here on the internet. The players will still go out and play the game, and the better team in the end will win the championship.

[Amarelooms]

First of all, I read a post about Mavericks haters. Let me explain it all here.

Yes, yes, yes a million times over....the Mavericks did remarkable things before the Finals, and after the Finals with this season, but not IN the Finals 2006. I think that is why a lot of us have a hard time accepting that Dallas may be for real. It doesn't matter if they go 82-0 this season, they didn't win last year's Finals and a lot of us, myself included, aren't convinced. They have beaten teams such as SA, Utah, Phoenix, and today Detroit, and yet, the Finals loss will be there until they reverse that outcome, if they can.

I also think that too many teams are giving the Mavericks too much respect for the wrong reasons. They became the talk of the league for defeating SA in the semis last year. I've never seen a team get so much respect for just getting past the semifinals. Dallas, with the exception of Devin Harris, is still mostly a jump shooting team. I'm sorry, that's what I am observing. That is why once they reached the Finals, where everything is on the line, and everything tightens up, those shots stopped falling.

I say Detroit, Miami, or SA as the NBA Champs this year. It's all about defense, not jump shooting.

We have yet to see if Dallas can prove "Mav haters" wrong.

Makes no sense...a team gotta win it all to get respect? So the Spurs lost your respect last year? Guess the Suns suck too then.

[SpursDynasty]

Makes no sense...a team gotta win it all to get respect? So the Spurs lost your respect last year? Guess the Suns suck too then.

I know you all hate the reference to past Spurs championships, but that explains why SA deserves more respect than anyone but Miami right now.

And no, I don't see the Suns as a title threat.

[Amarelooms]

I know you all hate the reference to past Spurs championships, but that explains why SA deserves more respect than anyone but Miami right now.

And no, I don't see the Suns as a title threat.

Ummm I would venture to say the Lakers and Celtics have more championships than the SPurs...so by your logic they deserve more respect :rolleyes

[Flight3107]

I guess we should all take the Celtics, Bulls, and Lakers more serious than we take the Spurs.


:donkey

[himat]

I guess we should all take the Celtics, Bulls, and Lakers more serious than we take the Spurs.


:donkey

Dumbest post of the year.
:donkey

[Flight3107]

Dumbest post of the year.
:donkey

Nope

They have more championships than the Spurs


So that means



Lakers, Bulls, Celtics >>>>> Spurs

[himat]

Nope

They have more championships than the Spurs


So that means



Lakers, Bulls, Celtics >>>>> Spurs

Not recently though. That is what makes the post dumb. You are just being ignorant.

[Flight3107]

Not recently though. That is what makes the post dumb. You are just being ignorant.


Sort of like you calling Devin Harris a dirty player because "he cant play straight up defense"?

[pooh]

Dallas is clearly a team on a mission...period. It doesn't revolve around the Silver n Black. People tend to think that cause Dallas is now getting the "attention", Spurs fans are bummed out because when they were on their mini-run, they didn't get the same attention.

Granted, I'm not a Spurs or Dallas lover, but you have to give the Mavs' their credit, while the Spurs are now on that slope downward. Granted, they're still favorites each year as long as they have Duncan, but otherwise that door is slowly starting to shut.

[himat]

Sort of like you calling Devin Harris a dirty player because "he cant play straight up defense"?

If you could read I said "today". I have not watched the whole Mavs season so I don't know if Harris plays defense like that all the time, but today he was.

[Flight3107]

If you could read I said "today". I have not watched the whole Mavs season so I don't know if Harris plays defense like that all the time, but today he was.

So not being able to play straight up defense = "dirty"

:donkey



Oh BTW, Harris IS one of the best defensive PG's in the league.

[himat]

Dallas is clearly a team on a mission...period.

I don't think people really think about what they are saying. Detroit had a tougher Finals loss. They barely lost in a Game 7 of the NBA Finals. Detroit was on a "mission" last season too. The Pistons are even more experienced than Dallas with huge playoff runs the last 4 or 5 years. People don't give all this credit to Dallas because the "mission" hasn't even started yet. It will start in late April come playoff time.

[BigBinBigD]

This is all really getting old, and it doesn't matter what we all argue about here on the internet. The players will still go out and play the game, and the better team in the end will win the championship.

Then WTF are you starting another thread about it?

[himat]

So not being able to play straight up defense = "dirty"

:donkey



Oh BTW, Harris IS one of the best defensive PG's in the league.

I can name a lot of better defensive guards.

PG's: Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich, Charlie Bell, Mike James, Sam Cassell, and Earl Watson.

I could name more too if I checked up some names.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

the Mavericks did remarkable things before the Finals, and after the Finals with this season



that is all the respect you have to give us. we're not asking you to "give" us the championship or call us one of the greatest ever. just state the facts. but what we have done is win the most games this year, and had incredible runs along the way. even if it means nothing it still is an incredible feat and we are definitely title contenders. we just ask that you admit those two things because they are the facts. thats all

[Flight3107]

:lmao
I can name a lot of better defensive guards.

PG's: Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich, Charlie Bell, Mike James, Sam Cassell, and Earl Watson.

I could name more too if I checked up some names.

:lmao


:drunk

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Kirk Hinrich and Sam Cassell



hell no. Cassell can hardly walk he's so old

[himat]

that is all the respect you have to give us. we're not asking you to "give" us the championship or call us one of the greatest ever. but what we have done is win the most games this year, and had incredible runs along the way. even if it means nothing it still is an incredible feat and we are definitely title contenders. we just ask that you admit those two things. just state the facts, thats all

I learned a lot from the Pistons last year. They were on pace to win 70 games too. It just didn't matter because the Pistons fell in the playoffs.

[himat]

hell no. Cassell can hardly walk he's so old

Yeah I kind of threw that one in there, but calling Harris the best defensive PG is an overstatement.

[Flight3107]

Yeah I kind of threw that one in there, but calling Harris the best defensive PG is an overstatement.


Who called him the best defensive PG?

[himat]

Who called him the best defensive PG?

Oh my bad calling him one of the best is an overstatement too. He is a good defensive point guard.

I think Mark Cuban actually said something like that though Flight 3107.

[thispego]

So not being able to play straight up defense = "dirty"

:donkey



Oh BTW, Harris IS one of the best defensive PG's in the league.
:lmao :lmao :lmao
devin harris sucks

[Flight3107]

Oh my bad calling him one of the best is an overstatement too. He is a good defensive point guard.

I think Mark Cuban actually said something like that though Flight 3107.

That would be Avery Johnson

And here is what he said



"Right now, I don't know many point guards in the Western Conference – you'll have to give me one – that are as good as he is defensively," Johnson said. "If you give me one, we can debate it. But Devin Harris, we think, is awfully good right now defensively."



But hey, you probably know more about defense than Avery Johnson.

[himat]

:lmao :lmao :lmao
devin harris sucks

Agreed.

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao :lmao :lmao
devin harris sucks


So says the Spur fan who watched Harris rape the Spurs.

[Flight3107]

:lmao :lmao :lmao
devin harris sucks


I think Tony Parker would disagree.

[Amarelooms]

I think Tony Parker would disagree.

So would Weber who got crossed over....just sick :elephant

[JamStone]

The title of this thread is completely misleading ...

[Lp26]

It's so funny how Mavs fans would always be like Manu what a flopper. He's always flops blah, blah,

but those same fans say Devin Harris is not a flopper. He's a great defensive PG :rolleyes

It's even rubbed on Howard. Dirk already had the affliction. I wonder who's next.

Stackhouse isn't pussy enough to start flopping all the time . . . Maybe JET

[Flight3107]

It's so funny how Mavs fans would always be like Manu what a flopper. He's always flops blah, blah,

but those same fans say Devin Harris is not a flopper. He's a great defensive PG :rolleyes

It's even rubbed on Howard. Dirk already had the affliction. I wonder who's next.

Stackhouse isn't pussy enough to start flopping all the time . . . Maybe JET


Who said anything about Devin Harris flopping?


:rolleyes

[Flight3107]

Oh, and Richard Hamilton never flops


:rolleyes

[Lp26]

Who said anything about Devin Harris flopping?


:rolleyes

I'm reffering to the conversation about Harris being one of the best defensive PG's. Also i don't know what that has to do with Hamilton . . .

[Flight3107]

I'm reffering to the conversation about Harris being one of the best defensive PG's. Also i don't know what that has to do with Hamilton . . .

So you dont think Harris is one of the best defensive PG's?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

So you dont think Harris is one of the best defensive PG's?


not at all, he just flops a lot


he doesnt shut anyone down


and yes, before you state your weak "manu flops too" take, harris can't stop anyone, he just draws charges now and again but is an overrated defender


george and buckner can defend but not harris

[Flight3107]

not at all, he just flops a lot


he doesnt shut anyone down


and yes, before you state your weak "manu flops too" take, harris can't stop anyone, he just draws charges now and again but is an overrated defender


george and buckner can defend but not harris


I guess Avery knows nothing about defense

[Flight3107]

BTW, what WC PG's are better defenders?

[Lp26]

^

Exactly.

It's the same thing like w/ a Chris Bosh type. He can block shots on occasion, but that doesn't make him a good defender.

Harris can take charges (IMO he flops a majority of the time), but that doesn't make hima great defender by any means.

[Lp26]

BTW, what WC PG's are better defenders?

I don't think there are that many great defensive PG's period in the league. The names that stick out are Kirk Hinrich, Gary Payton still has an occassional flashback performance, Kidd is pretty effective, Chauncey can be at times . . .

I'm trying to think Western conference, and Baron Davis tends to shut down Chauncey, but I don't think this is a regular occurence for him, haven't watched enough of Deron Williams . . . I can't really think of any great defensive PG's in the West

[Flight3107]

So you cant think of a better defensive PG in the WC than Devin Harris?



EOD

[Lp26]

No, i can't think of any great defensive PG's in the West INCLUDING Harris

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I guess Avery knows nothing about defense


brent barry and finley suck as defenders does that mean Pop knows nothing about defense?

[Flight3107]

brent barry and finley suck as defenders does that mean Pop knows nothing about defense?

Im sorry, but when did Pop ever call Barry and Finley the best defenders in the WC at their positions?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Im sorry, but when did Pop ever call Barry and Finley the best defenders in the WC at their positions?

bwahaha avery said that about Harris?!?!


He was probably just tryin to boost the confidence


Now, for the record, I think Harris is solid. But I would never call him a "solid defender" he has great quickness but when it comes to D he isnt much better than any other PG in the WC at defense.

[Flight3107]

LMFAO

Nope, Avery is not one to sugar coat anything with Devin Harris.


He is his biggest critic and rides him harder than anyone on the team.


But I have yet to see any of you name a better defensive PG in the WC than Devin Harris.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

LMFAO

Nope, Avery is not one to sugar coat anything with Devin Harris.


He is his biggest critic and rides him harder than anyone on the team.


But I have yet to see any of you name a better defensive PG in the WC than Devin Harris.


but here's the thing


there are hardly ANY good defensive PG's in the league

it's much like saying so and so is the #6 center in the league

well guess what, the center position is a weak position overall much like how defensive PG's in the league are few and far between. I'd also take Baron Davis over Harris in terms of defense but even then, Davis isn't someone who I look at and go "damn, he can defend"

Payton was the last great PG defender in a list of defensive PG's that is all too short

[Flight3107]

I'd also take Baron Davis over Harris in terms of defense



:lmao


:drunk





This is just too funny.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

:lmao


:drunk





This is just too funny.
Emoticons wont win an argument for you. Baron when healthy can be a pretty good defender.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Emoticons wont win an argument for you. Baron when healthy can be a pretty good defender.


seriously



Flight, your argument is basically like you saying this....


"Billie Joe is the best guitarist in GreenDay, therefore he is a great guitarist"



:dizzy

[Flight3107]

Emoticons wont win an argument for you. Baron when healthy can be a pretty good defender.


Listen here




Devin Harris IS the best defensive PG in the Western Conference.

[dieman8686]

Emoticons wont win an argument for you. Baron when healthy can be a pretty good defender.
"When" I win the lottery...

[Flight3107]

seriously



Flight, your argument is basically like you saying this....


"Billie Joe is the best guitarist in GreenDay, therefore he is a great guitarist"



:dizzy


Not at all

I said Devin Harris is the best defensive pg in the West.


The only thing I get back from you guys is

"He Flops"

Or

"There are no good defensive PG's in the West"

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Listen here




Devin Harris IS the best defensive PG in the Western Conference.
LOL, you completely missed the point. But hey, Harris being the best defensive pg in the western conference is your opinion.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

"When" I win the lottery...
"Thanks" for bringing nothing to the table...

[dieman8686]

"Thanks" for bringing nothing to the table...
Oh the irony :lol
When's and if's makes a huge argument!

[Flight3107]

LOL, you completely missed the point. But hey, Harris being the best defensive pg in the western conference is your opinion.


It is definatly not just my opinion.



But get back to me if you come up with a better defensive PG than Devin Harris.


And dont give me any of this Baron Davis nonsense because it will just make me laugh.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Oh the irony :lol
When's and if's makes a huge argument!
:blah

"When" I win the lottery...
Its a lot more than this^^^

Besides, I only made a comment. I wasn't trying to argue anything.

[dieman8686]

Lets bring your talk to the table then...
When Rodman comes back from retirement with the Spurs he would be the rebound leader in the NBA because when he was young he was was a monster on the boards!

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It is definatly not just my opinion.



But get back to me if you come up with a better defensive PG than Devin Harris.


And dont give me any of this Baron Davis nonsense because it will just make me laugh.



haha

so Davis sucks at D? um ok

god know how bad that must make Harris

by your definition of defender, Vlade Divac must b the greatest defender of the past 15 years

[dieman8686]

:blah

Its a lot more than this^^^

Besides, I only made a comment. I wasn't trying to argue anything.
Wait wait wait I made a comment too....

[Flight3107]

haha

so Davis sucks at D? um ok

god know how bad that must make Harris

by your definition of defender, Vlade Divac must b the greatest defender of the past 15 years


Please tell me what MY definition of a good defender is, because I dont remember typing it.

:rolleyes

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Lets bring your talk to the table then...
When Rodman comes back from retirement with the Spurs he would be the rebound leader in the NBA because when he was young he was was a monster on the boards!
Lol at mav fans getting all pissy over people not thinking Devin Harris is the best defensive pg in the west. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension. The whole point of my post was about him using emoticons to win an argument. But I like how your focusing on one word in my post. Rodman has nothing to do with the argument. Baron on the other hand does because he's still in the league. He's been out for a couple of games this season due to injury. And he's even played with nagging injuries also. But when healthy he's up there with the "top defensive" pg's in the league.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Wait wait wait I made a comment too....
Good for you.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Please tell me what MY definition of a good defender is, because I dont remember typing it.

:rolleyes


devin harris AKA a flopper who draws charges but cant shut anyone down or limit their scorer

[Flight3107]

devin harris AKA a flopper who draws charges but cant shut anyone down or limit their scorer


What? You cant find where I typed MY definition of a good defender?



Oh and in case you wanted to know

When Devin Harris is on the floor the Mavs score at a pace of 103.8 PPG and hold their Opponents to 88.6 PPG


No other Mav that plays signigicant minutes has a better Opp PPG than Harris.

[Flight3107]

devin harris AKA a flopper who draws charges but cant shut anyone down or limit their scorer


You would'nt happen to be bitter that Devin Harris lit up the Spurs last year would you?

[dieman8686]

Lol at mav fans getting all pissy over people not thinking Devin Harris is the best defensive pg in the west. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension. The whole point of my post was about him using emoticons to win an argument. But I like how your focusing on one word in my post. Rodman has nothing to do with the argument. Baron on the other hand does because he's still in the league. He's been out for a couple of games this season due to injury. And he's even played with nagging injuries also. But when healthy he's up there with the "top defensive" pg's in the league.
Don't let it get to you, the Rodman case was sarcasm so for you to mention it, well... :elephant .
I really don't care whose whose, I was just making a comment about the use of the when's/if's to support an argument. Heck Steve Nash is the BEST defensive PG while your at it if thats what you want to talk about...nonsense.


Good for you.
Where is my cookie... :rolleyes

[Amuseddaysleeper]

What? You cant find where I typed MY definition of a good defender?



Oh and in case you wanted to know

When Devin Harris is on the floor the Mavs score at a pace of 103.8 PPG and hold their Opponents to 88.6 PPG


No other Mav that plays signigicant minutes has a better Opp PPG than Harris.


yup, and its all thanks to harris. his D slows the game down and allows the mavs to hold opp under 90

harris does not keep the opposing team to under 90

diop and dampier are primarily responsible for that

stop kidding yourself

[Amuseddaysleeper]

You would'nt happen to be bitter that Devin Harris lit up the Spurs last year would you?


nope, I think he's a solid player


plus it was his offense that pushed the mavs over the hump

his defense was not what got the mavs the series win

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Don't let it get to you with the Rodman case was sarcasm so for you to mention it, well... :elephant .
I really don't care whose whose, I was just making a comment about the use of the when's/if's to support an argument. Heck Steve Nash is the BEST defensive PG while your at it if thats what you want to talk about...nonsense.


Where is my cookie... :rolleyes
Nice, its 2:00 a.m. and your patrolling the Internets for word usage. :wakeup

[Flight3107]

yup, and its all thanks to harris. his D slows the game down and allows the mavs to hold opp under 90

harris does not keep the opposing team to under 90

diop and dampier are primarily responsible for that

stop kidding yourself


I bring Stats


You bring opinions




When Damp is in the game the Opp PPG is on pace for 91.1 PPG

When Diop is in the game the Opp PPG in on pace for 91.1 PPG



Oh, and Devin Harris is the best defensive PG in the Western Conference

[dieman8686]

Nice, its 2:00 a.m. and your patrolling the Internets for word usage. :wakeup
That's it...okay..
:nerd Well I'll help you out on your spelling too then ...emoticons(icons? :blah ).
you have used that word over and over, so it wasn't a typo, I guess thats how you see it :(
come come on respoond to this sarcasm (lol)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I bring Stats


You bring opinions




When Damp is in the game the Opp PPG is on pace for 91.1 PPG

When Diop is in the game the Opp PPG in on pace for 91.1 PPG



Oh, and Devin Harris is the best defensive PG in the Western Conference


then by your "stats" harris has to be one of the top 3 defenders in the league

the mavs play team defense, thats what get the opp scoring so low, not harris shutting everyone down


also, tony parker 3pt % wise is #2 on the spurs at 44%


does this mean when he's on the floor opponents must freak out when he hovers around the 3 point line?

oh, and devin harris isn't that good of a defender

[THE SIXTH MAN]

I really don't care whose whose, I was just making a comment about the use of the when's/if's to support an argument.
Can you read?



Besides, I only made a comment. I wasn't trying to argue anything.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

That's it...okay..
:nerd Well I'll help you out on your spelling too then ...emoticons(icons? :blah ).
you have used that word over and over, so it wasn't a typo, I guess thats how you see it :(
come come on respoond to this sarcasm (lol)
:bike:

[dieman8686]

Can you read?
so a comment cant be an arguement? Your persuading someone that Davis qualifies as a good or great denfender in the Pg category when healty. Persuading=argumentation.

[Flight3107]

then by your "stats" harris has to be one of the top 3 defenders in the league

Where in the hell did this come from and how does that stat show harris is "one of the top 3 defenders in the league"


the mavs play team defense, thats what get the opp scoring so low, not harris shutting everyone down

Sure the Mavs play "team defense", im not sure what team does not play "team defense". It just so happens that the Mavs have the best defensive PG in the WC.



also, tony parker 3pt % wise is #2 on the spurs at 44%

Im not sure where the hell you are going with this?





oh, and devin harris isn't that good of a defender


You're just a hater

[dieman8686]

:bike:
Wow I guess you did fall for it lol.... :blah :downspin: :lol
the "emoticon" is exactly what made ths special... no more for me :lol

[THE SIXTH MAN]

so a comment cant be an arguement? Your persuading someone that Davis qualifies as a good or great denfender in the Pg category when healty. Persuading=argumentation.
:lol


Well I'll help you out on your spelling too then
Looks like you need help spelling.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

look, according to your stats when Harris is on the floor the mavs are at their best defensively


so I brought up the TP example because stats don't necessarily tell the whole story (unless your Hollinger) So if TP is the #2 3 point shooter on one of the five best 3 point shooting teams in the league, he therefore must be considered a 3 point threat. Now tell me honestly, do you think most teams look at the scouting report and go "man, I got TP tonight, I better keep up closely guarded at the 3 point line"

I didn't think so


By that same token, you think when Harris is on anyone they go "shit, i got Harris on me, I better change my offensive strategy or I"m not gonna get any buckets"

All teams play team defense, but there is absolutely no way the effect Harris has is on the same level as a Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, or Ron Artest.


I'm not a hater, you're just a homer

[Flight3107]

:bike:


"Emoticons" wont win an argument for you.

[dieman8686]

Four people, including me, commenting and arguing about non-sense...
When I win the lottery... sure got to Sixth Man :elephant, hey I was tired from work needed a bit cheering up, thx Sixth man!
and the densive of harris b/w Amuse and Flight :pctoss

[dieman8686]

"Emoticons" wont win an argument for you.
Thank you man :lol

[dieman8686]

:lol


Looks like you need help spelling.
I'll let the spelling sarcasm up to you to find, thx for pointing out my typo by the way :dramaquee

[THE SIXTH MAN]

That's it...okay..
:nerd Well I'll help you out on your spelling too then ...emoticons(icons? :blah ).
you have used that word over and over, so it wasn't a typo, I guess thats how you see it :(
come come on respoond to this sarcasm (lol)

A smiley is a sequence of characters on your computer keyboard. If you don't see it, try tilting your head to the left -- the colon represents the eyes, the dash represents the nose and the right parenthesis represents the mouth. Smileys usually follow after the punctuation (or in place of the punctuation) at the end of a sentence. A smiley tells someone what you really mean when you make an offhand remark. They are also called emoticons because they intend to convey emotion!


http://www.netlingo.com/smiley.cfm

[THE SIXTH MAN]

"Emoticons" wont win an argument for you.

I guess the two of you cant read, because it wasn't an argument.

[dieman8686]

http://www.netlingo.com/smiley.cfm
dude don't you get it....and you went out and got the definition for me, how nice of you :toast .
I know what emoticons are :lol guess you don't understand things, I won't explain, I'm hungry, but keep reading it and after it : )
Go for you 1.3k post while you try to comprehend things :wakeup
sarcasm was..
{edit}
bah you will take too long
your posts= that of emoticons[ input your definition link here] which was just a jerker since you get so riled up for nonsense...

FYI Im out :hungry:

[Flight3107]

look, according to your stats when Harris is on the floor the mavs are at their best defensively

I ABSOLUTLEY said that



so I brought up the TP example because stats don't necessarily tell the whole story (unless your Hollinger) So if TP is the #2 3 point shooter on one of the five best 3 point shooting teams in the league, he therefore must be considered a 3 point threat. Now tell me honestly, do you think most teams look at the scouting report and go "man, I got TP tonight, I better keep up closely guarded at the 3 point line"

I didn't think so

I NEVER said that because Devin Harris is the best defender on the Mavs Who are one of the five best defensive teams he must be considered a top 3 defender.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.


I simply stated that Devin Harris is the best defensive PG in the WC



By that same token, you think when Harris is on anyone they go "shit, i got Harris on me, I better change my offensive strategy or I"m not gonna get any buckets"

I really dont remember typing that either


You are putting words in my mouth again


All teams play team defense, but there is absolutely no way the effect Harris has is on the same level as a Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, or Ron Artest.

Did I say Harris was a better defender than Duncan, Wallace, or Artest? :dizzy



I'm not a hater, you're just a homer


How so?

Who is a better defensive PG in the WC than Devin Harris

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I ABSOLUTLEY said that




I NEVER said that because Devin Harris is the best defender on the Mavs Who are one of the five best defensive teams he must be considered a top 3 defender.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.


I simply stated that Devin Harris is the best defensive PG in the WC




I really dont remember typing that either


You are putting words in my mouth again




How so?

Who is a better defensive PG in the WC than Devin Harris


Baron Davis

[THE SIXTH MAN]

dude don't you get it....and you went out and got the definition for me, how nice of you :toast .
I know what emoticons are :lol guess you don't understand things, I won't explain, I'm hungry, but keep reading it and after it : )
Go for you 1.3k post while you try to comprehend things :wakeup

FYI Im out :hungry:
:lol You must be the kind of person that laughs at his own jokes when nobody else will. I got it, but I didn't think it was funny, just because your mom finds you amusing doesn't mean everybody else will. Keep on patrolling the Internets. :cop

[Flight3107]

Baron Davis


What in the hell would make you think Baron Davis is a better defender than Devin Harris "Other than your hate toward the Mavs".

[Amuseddaysleeper]

What in the hell would make you think Baron Davis is a better defender than Devin Harris "Other than your hate toward the Mavs".


because he's much more phsyical and harder to score against


no one has problems scoring on harris


he fouls a lot

I've seen Davis harrass players whereas Harris does well drawing charges but isn't gonna truly bother anyone on his defensive end


plus, i'm not the only one who thinks Davis is a better defender, he's been mentione dbefore in this thread

take off the homer glasses

[Flight3107]

because he's much more phsyical and harder to score against

He is more physical, I will give you that.



no one has problems scoring on harris

I guess Hamilton going 5-13 today was a fluke



he fouls a lot

Devin Harris averages 3.0 PF's a game
Baron Davis averages 3.15 PF's a game


I've seen Davis harrass players whereas Harris does well drawing charges but isn't gonna truly bother anyone on his defensive end

I now know you dont watch many Mavs games



plus, i'm not the only one who thinks Davis is a better defender, he's been mentione dbefore in this thread

By one other person, and he really did not even say Davis was a better defender.


take off the homer glasses

Take off the hater glasses

[Amuseddaysleeper]

i watch a fair share of Mavs games as I have nba league pass


hamilton goin 5-13 was a fluke, he rarely shoots that poorly

I bet you're gonna give Harris credit for Rip missing those FT's since harris was obviously in is head so much


you almost never hear a player commenting on harris's defense from the opposing team

Also, in regards to the fouls scenario between Davis and Harris, Harris only plays 25.4 minutes per game. If his defense is so good, and is the reason for the team holding opp below 90 ppg, then send the word along to avery cuz I'd sure as hell would want that player on the court more......too bad he average 3 fouls per game on such a minutes per game total

on the other hand, Davis average 36.1 mpg and leads his team in minutes played. he plays nearly 11 minutes more, yet contributes only .15 more fouls per game than harris.


If harris played that many minutes in a game he'd probably have 4-5 fouls minimum sending him back to the bench and *shudder* ruining the Mavs defensive schemes

[Lp26]

I guess Hamilton going 5-13 today was a fluke


Hamilton has been shooting awful lately. Check the stats for his last few games. He was being guarded by Ray Allen and he shot even worse in the SEA game. He's in some sort of mini-slump, and has been for awhile . . .

Devin Harris isn't a Bruce Bowen level defender. I'd have a hard time even comparing him to Raja Bell . . .

And i'll cosign Baron Davis as being better.

A good defender understands angles, how to make a shot difficult, knows how to use his hands and feet, understands where the player's sweet spots are, fights for position, bothers and intimidates the shooter . . .

Harris falls down.

The two really can't be compared.

[Flight3107]

i watch a fair share of Mavs games as I have nba league pass

You obviously dont pay attention to Harris



hamilton goin 5-13 was a fluke, he rarely shoots that poorly

Somehow I expected you to say that


I bet you're gonna give Harris credit for Rip missing those FT's since harris was obviously in is head so much



you almost never hear a player commenting on harris's defense from the opposing team

Well then, I guess that seals it. :rolleyes


Also, in regards to the fouls scenario between Davis and Harris, Harris only plays 25.4 minutes per game. If his defense is so good, and is the reason for the team holding opp below 90 ppg, then send the word along to avery cuz I'd sure as hell would want that player on the court more......too bad he average 3 fouls per game on such a minutes per game total


Mind showing me where I said that? You sure like putting words in my mouth.

And if you watched the Mavs you would know that Avery likes going big.






If harris played that many minutes in a game he'd probably have 4-5 fouls minimum sending him back to the bench and *shudder* ruining the Mavs defensive schemes

Now you are assuming

[Flight3107]

Hamilton has been shooting awful lately. Check the stats for his last few games. He was being guarded by Ray Allen and he shot even worse in the SEA game. He's in some sort of mini-slump, and has been for awhile . . .

Devin Harris isn't a Bruce Bowen level defender. I'd have a hard time even comparing him to Raja Bell . . .

And i'll cosign Baron Davis as being better.

A good defender understands angles, how to make a shot difficult, knows how to use his hands and feet, understands where the player's sweet spots are, fights for position, bothers and intimidates the shooter . . .

Harris falls down.

The two really can't be compared.

I expected you to say that because Harris did just school your team yesterday.

[Lp26]

You won by 4, our SG who shoots near 90% missed 5FT's, and our best player was out. If that's called getting schooled; I wonder what a blowout would be like for your team . . .

And just look at the stats, they don't lie. Your a big stats guy right? Hamilton has been shooting awful. In fact along w/ stats i can post an article that was in the newspaper about Hamilton's recent shooting slump.

I love how when you have no response, you resort to just spouting nonsense

[himat]

:lmao


:drunk





This is just too funny.

Keep getting drunk dumbass. All you say is the same thing over and over again.

[monosylab1k]

This is enjoyable.


If you could read I said "today". I have not watched the whole Mavs season so I don't know if Harris plays defense like that all the time, but today he was.

So you admit you don't watch enough Mavs basketball to know how good of a defender Harris is...


I can name a lot of better defensive guards.

PG's: Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich, Charlie Bell, Mike James, Sam Cassell, and Earl Watson.

I could name more too if I checked up some names.

....yet you can easily name a bunch of PG's better than Harris. Just one post after admitting you don't watch the Mavericks enough to know how good of a defender Harris is, you're creating a big ass list of better defenders. Talk out your ass much?

[z0sa]

Harris isnt that good defensively, he just draws charges.

[Don Quixote]

So much for respect ...

[mardigan]

Harris is a pretty damn good defender, he gave Tony fits last year in the playoffs, he will be a damn good point eventually. I will say though that there are a lot of Mav fans here that think he is a lot better than he is right now, especially for a point that averages 2 turnovers a game to 3 and half assists per game

[LEONARD]

I say Detroit, Miami, or SA as the NBA Champs this year. It's all about defense, not jump shooting.

If the Mavs aren't a good defensive team, who is??

:donkey :donkey :donkey :donkey :donkey :donkey

[mardigan]

sigh.......I am running out of things to say about ol SD

[himat]

This is enjoyable.



So you admit you don't watch enough Mavs basketball to know how good of a defender Harris is...



....yet you can easily name a bunch of PG's better than Harris. Just one post after admitting you don't watch the Mavericks enough to know how good of a defender Harris is, you're creating a big ass list of better defenders. Talk out your ass much?

I have not seen enough Mavs games to see if Harris plays a little cheap on D. I have seen enough NBA games to say that most of the guys I listed have a bigger impact on defense than Harris does. Sam Cassel is old so isn't better anymore, every other guy on that list is better though.

[RonMexico]

Seriously, Harris does play cheap D.

But he has to take what they give him... the league never used to have a 3-seconds in the lane rule until Wilt came along...

[Flight3107]

"Cheap D" ?

[Leetonidas]

Harris is a good defensive point guard, but that's not saying much, and he is not the best defensive PG in the West. That would be either Baron Davis or Earl Watson. You Mavfans need to get off the Homerade.

[RonMexico]

"Cheap D" ?

Cutting somebody off (blocking foul, btw) and then flopping like you've just been hit with an elbow by Kobe... that's what "cheap D" is. That's about the extent of his defense: get muscled around by everyone and then resort to wimpy-ass tactics.

[Flight3107]

Cutting somebody off (blocking foul, btw) and then flopping like you've just been hit with an elbow by Kobe... that's what "cheap D" is. That's about the extent of his defense: get muscled around by everyone and then resort to wimpy-ass tactics.



So playing "Phoenix Suns Defense" = Chep D?

[Lp26]

Harris is a good defensive point guard, but that's not saying much, and he is not the best defensive PG in the West. That would be either Baron Davis or Earl Watson. You Mavfans need to get off the Homerade.

Thank you! That's who's name i've been trying to think of.

[Flight3107]

Ok I just looked at Watson and Harris stats

and they were almost identical, except that Harris is in the top 4 in TO's by taking a charge, Watson is not even listed in the top 30.



But if that helps you sleep at night...

[Lp26]

Yes, Devin Harris flops more than Earl Watson who's not even a top 4 flopper. That definately makes him a worse defender. B/C anybody who know anything about defense knows that how many times you fall down is crucial to how good of a defender you are. :rolleyes

[Flight3107]

Yes, Devin Harris flops more than Earl Watson who's not even a top 4 flopper. That definately makes him a worse defender. B/C anybody who know anything about defense knows that how many times you fall down is crucial to how good of a defender you are. :rolleyes


I guess you did not read the part that said there defense stats are identical.


But Watson must be a better defender ignoring the fact they having identical defensive stats because you say so. :rolleyes

[RonMexico]

Please provide these stats and prove they are identical

[leemajors]

baron davis plays defense?

[monosylab1k]

baron davis plays defense?

of course he does, cuz he's coached by the king of defensive strategy, Don Nelson.

[stretch]

Yes, Devin Harris flops more than Earl Watson who's not even a top 4 flopper. That definately makes him a worse defender. B/C anybody who know anything about defense knows that how many times you fall down is crucial to how good of a defender you are. :rolleyes
Harris flops, but he also takes a large number of legit charges as well.

and being a detroit fan, you of all people should know that people that flop, are typically the best defenders. not because they know how to flop, but because they understand what they can, and cant get away with defensively. remember Rodman? Laimbeer? please stop whining and shut the hell up.

[stretch]

Please provide these stats and prove they are identical
Harris - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3822

Watson - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3549

A 0.1 difference in rebonding and steals, but Watson also plays 2 more minutes a game. They are basically identical. But I will take Harris. He is much better at drawing charges, and is a bigger, more versatile defender.

[LEONARD]

Cutting somebody off (blocking foul, btw) and then flopping like you've just been hit with an elbow by Kobe... that's what "cheap D" is. That's about the extent of his defense: get muscled around by everyone and then resort to wimpy-ass tactics.

:lol

Harris is quick enough to stay in front of just about anybody...he's not "cutting people off" normally...

[TonyParkerSux]

Harris is a good defensive point guard, but that's not saying much, and he is not the best defensive PG in the West. That would be either Baron Davis or Earl Watson. You Mavfans need to get off the Homerade.

Earl Watson or Baron Davis?? Davis is terrible on D. :wtf Watson is a solid defender, but Harris is better.

[jmard5]

Harris is effective on most guards as he is quick to anticipate where the guards will go. He will cut the lane, and at the least amount of contact will flop. Seen that many times.

Harris will also drive into the lane, barrel into his defender (who is in good defensive position), makes contact and will somehow attempt to try to hoist a shot while he goes down. Whistle. Foul on the defender. He initiates contact and refs are suckered to call a foul.

[TonyParkerSux]

All of which equate to Harris being the best defensive 1 in the West. I can't think of anyone who is even close other than Watson. It's certainly not Smush Parker... :pctoss

[jmard5]

All of which equate to Harris being the best defensive 1 in the West. I can't think of anyone who is even close other than Watson. It's certainly not Smush Parker... :pctoss

I am not convinced.

[TonyParkerSux]

I am not convinced.

Nobody should have to convince you. Can you think of another 1 in the West that plays good D?

[stretch]

Nobody should have to convince you. Can you think of another 1 in the West that plays good D?
lol, dont ask him that. he may actually have the balls to say Tony Parker.

[TonyParkerSux]

lol, dont ask him that. he may actually have the balls to say Tony Parker.

LOL. That's just it. There are not really any 1's in the west that play solid D. Harris may not be the best lock down defender that the position has ever seen (although I think that he is very good), but he is the best defensive 1 in the West by default. There are really no other legit candidates. Also, I think that on the Mavs, Terry's defense is a little underrated.

[jmard5]

You have your own opinions, I have mine. I base them on what I see on the court.

Lockdown defender? Best defensive by default? Harris' defense is overrated.

[TonyParkerSux]

You have your own opinions, I have mine. I base them on what I see on the court.

Lockdown defender? Best defensive by default? Harris' defense is overrated.

So what is your opinion? Who is the best if Harris is not? His defense can be both... overrated and the best of the current West point gaurds.

It's not really opinion as much as fact. Until someone can name a better defensive point gaurd in the West, Harris is it.

[jmard5]

For true point guards, sorry man, no one. They are all in the east.

[Flintstones32]

Well if you go by stats then Rafer Alston is the best defensive PG in the West. Most steals and rebounds by a PG, plus 27 less fouls than Harris but plays over 10 min more a game.


Now, who here really believes he's a better defender than Harris? It's all a matter of opinion, stats really don't show how good a defensive guard is. I haven't watched many mavs or rockets games, so I can't say who is the best, but I am pretty sure it's not about stats.


stats provided by stats.com

[mabber]

Cutting somebody off (blocking foul, btw) and then flopping like you've just been hit with an elbow by Kobe... that's what "cheap D" is. That's about the extent of his defense: get muscled around by everyone and then resort to wimpy-ass tactics.

Whatever he does, it's effective and that's all that really matters.

[TonyParkerSux]

For true point guards, sorry man, no one. They are all in the east.


That's true. Billups and Kidd are excellent, and there are a few that are at least as good as Harris.

[jmard5]

That's true. Billups and Kidd are excellent.

Well, it is good that we are on the same page on this one.
:p:

[RonMexico]

Harris - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3822

Watson - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3549

A 0.1 difference in rebonding and steals, but Watson also plays 2 more minutes a game. They are basically identical. But I will take Harris. He is much better at drawing charges, and is a bigger, more versatile defender.

Thank you - I don't trust someone who makes claims without documentation

[mardigan]

There might not be many better on d than Harris from the point position, but as far as being a point, there are plenty better than him

[RonMexico]

Jason Terry: "Steve Nash is the best defensive point guard in the league... at least for 2 seconds while he bounces a steal off my leg."

[RonMexico]

Harris will also drive into the lane, barrel into his defender (who is in good defensive position), makes contact and will somehow attempt to try to hoist a shot while he goes down. Whistle. Foul on the defender. He initiates contact and refs are suckered to call a foul.

That's what makes the charges he takes so frustrating: the fact that he gets away with even cheaper stuff on the offensive end.

[mabber]

That's what makes the charges he takes so frustrating: the fact that he gets away with even cheaper stuff on the offensive end.

Don't blame the player, they're taught to do that. I don't blame D.Wade or the 100 other smart players for doing that, just the refs for calling it on the defense.

[RonMexico]

Don't blame the player, they're taught to do that. I don't blame D.Wade or the 100 other smart players for doing that, just the refs for calling it on the defense.

Oh, I still blame the refs, but that doesn't change what Harris is all about... that make sense?

[mabber]

Harris is effective on most guards as he is quick to anticipate where the guards will go. He will cut the lane, and at the least amount of contact will flop. Seen that many times.

Harris will also drive into the lane, barrel into his defender (who is in good defensive position), makes contact and will somehow attempt to try to hoist a shot while he goes down. Whistle. Foul on the defender. He initiates contact and refs are suckered to call a foul.

Maybe he watched film on Manu to learn that. Once again, the players are taught to do that so the ones that don't initiate the contact are the "slow learners" :lol

[mabber]

Oh, I still blame the refs, but that doesn't change what Harris is all about... that make sense?

I question the players that don't do this. If you can get cheap calls that way why wouldn't you? If you're coached to do this when you have the opportunity, why wouldn't you do it?

[mardigan]

Williams isnt bad, Roy isnt bad, and Chris Paul is pretty good, but none of them are as good as Harris, although I would take every one of them over Harris

[jmard5]

Maybe he watched film on Manu to learn that. Once again, the players are taught to do that so the ones that don't initiate the contact are the "slow learners" :lol

The difference is, Manu actually drives into the lane to get a layup. Though his shots are oftentimes awkward, he does it to get better anlges for his shot attempts.

With Harris, he just wants to make body contact and hopes the refs bail him out.

[mabber]

The difference is, Manu actually drives into the lane to get a layup. Though his shots are oftentimes awkward, he does it to get better anlges for his shot attempts.

With Harris, he just wants to make body contact and hopes the refs bail him out.

If that were true, then Harris wouldn't make as many layups as he does (and he gets a lot of layups).

[Lp26]

Harris flops, but he also takes a large number of legit charges as well.

and being a detroit fan, you of all people should know that people that flop, are typically the best defenders. not because they know how to flop, but because they understand what they can, and cant get away with defensively. remember Rodman? Laimbeer? please stop whining and shut the hell up.

Thanks for reinforcing my belief that a majority of Mav's fans are jackasses.

[monosylab1k]

Thanks for reinforcing my belief that a majority of Mav's fans are jackasses.

Have fun crying about what big jackasses we are as you get pounded by Miami in the playoffs.

[stretch]

Thanks for reinforcing my belief that a majority of Mav's fans are jackasses.
which has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the topic of debate. thanks for reinforcing my belief that you are absolutely and utterly ignoarant on this topic and are simply speaking out of your ass.

[Leetonidas]

Ok I just looked at Watson and Harris stats

and they were almost identical, except that Harris is in the top 4 in TO's by taking a charge, Watson is not even listed in the top 30.



But if that helps you sleep at night...
Um, if you knew jack shit about basketball, you'd know good defense isn't just forcing TO's and flopping all over the place. Bowen is a great defender and his stats are not very good in steals, rebounds, blocks, or anything.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Devin Harris isn't that great of a defender


plus for a point guard his assist to turnover ratio isn't anything close to write home about

[RonMexico]

Um, if you knew jack shit about basketball, you'd know good defense isn't just forcing TO's and flopping all over the place. Bowen is a great defender and his stats are not very good in steals, rebounds, blocks, or anything.

Kind of like when Al Gore say to Dan Quayle: "You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy," I also shall say, "Devin Harris, sir, is no Bruce Bowen."

[Lp26]

Have fun crying about what big jackasses we are as you get pounded by Miami in the playoffs.

I think i'll have my more fun laughing as the Mavs choke away another title. Somebody should really help Dirk w/ those FT's.

[mabber]

Devin Harris isn't that great of a defender


plus for a point guard his assist to turnover ratio isn't anything close to write home about

At least he shut down Marbury (and Francis when Marbury wasn't in the game) last night and that was what was asked of him.

He may not be that great of a defender but nobody seems to score much on him. I'll take the results over the title and/or perception.

[greensborohill]

Devin Harris isn't that great of a defender


plus for a point guard his assist to turnover ratio isn't anything close to write home about


He's a winner.

Period.

[mardigan]

Like I said, Harris is a good defender, just not that good of a point guard

[Fromthebleachers]

devin is often guarding one of the opposing teams best players from game to game so thats respect. Second, the charges he draws are from the player hes defending therefore hes moving his feet well enough to stay in front of his man. I remember seeing him play against the nuggs a while back and drawing 2-3 charges straight up from AI. now thats saying something.

third, he is the best defensive pg in the west outside of tp and hes the quickest which is why he draws a ton of charges. and last i checked, a charge was a defensive stat. Harris ranks 4th overall so far this year and first amongst all pg's.

[mardigan]

All I know is that when the league cracks down on floppers players like Harris and Manu are gona be fucked

[Fromthebleachers]

From the denver game...

"One of the keys to the Mavericks’ second half dominance was the defense of Devin Harris. Not only did he grab a career-high seven rebounds, he also put a strangle hold on Allen Iverson as the Mavs stretched out a big lead in the fourth quarter. Iverson finished with 26 points, but he also had nine turnovers to his credit – many of them thanks to the sticky defense of Harris.

“We think Devin is one of the best defensive point guards in the league,” said Avery Johnson post-game. “Night in and night out he’s giving up his body, he’s in position, he’s guarding the best player. What we’ve tried to do is let him guard more of the point guards now, guys his size. Our experiment with putting him on 6’8” two-guards was not a good thing for him. It kind of hurt some of his confidence, but we’ve got him back in his position of strength now and it seems to have carried over because he’s getting back to the basket.”

[mardigan]

Yea, we get it, he is a great defensive point guard, but that doesnt make him a good point guard. Same thing with Bowen, great defensive small forward, doesnt make him a great small forward.

[Fromthebleachers]

Yea, we get it, he is a great defensive point guard, but that doesnt make him a good point guard. Same thing with Bowen, great defensive small forward, doesnt make him a great small forward.
well i dont think the argument was ever about him being a good point guard. but we never needed him produce offense. pretty much the same way you use bowen.

[mardigan]

well i dont think the argument was ever about him being a good point guard. but we never needed him produce offense. pretty much the same way you use bowen.
But the thing is, Bowen wasnt a high 1st round pick that was expected to be more than he is. Just because he doesnt need to contribute offensively isnt a good exscuse for his lack of develpment. I just think that for a point guard, he has a long way to go

[Fromthebleachers]

youre right , he does have a long way to go, but the same can be said of a lot of players in this league. regardless of how or in what order they were drafted they still have to learn the NBA game. whos to say that Harris wouldnt have fallen a little further in that draft? but anyways, his development has been solid going into this year, and he is becomming the player "defensively" that Avery wants. Now he has to get his offensive game into focus. We forget that pg is the most difficult position to play and is more cerebral than physical. Hes been getting by on his speed and quickness for so long that the simple nuances of the position have yet to catch up. and thats what avery and nellie have been harping on him about.

[mardigan]

Yea, in that regard he is a lot like Tony when he first came into the league, relying too much on physical ability. And Im sure he will eventually turn into quite the player, I would just like to see his assists go up

[mabber]

Yea, in that regard he is a lot like Tony when he first came into the league, relying too much on physical ability. And Im sure he will eventually turn into quite the player, I would just like to see his assists go up

I'm sure they would be higher in another offense. While the Mavs are getting more assists this season than in the past, their offense is still geared more towards mismatches and pick 'n rolls where there are no assists.

[Fromthebleachers]

Yea, in that regard he is a lot like Tony when he first came into the league, relying too much on physical ability. And Im sure he will eventually turn into quite the player, I would just like to see his assists go up
so would, i but you cant teach instincts. all avery can do is teach him the position, its up to harris to take the ball and run with it.(figuratively speaking)