Time to show Damp some love

[Findog]

I really feel like this deserves its own post instead of mentioning in the game recap threads. Saw this quote from LeBron:

'"This team is not going to win 50-plus games with just Josh Howard and Dirk Nowitzki," James said. "They have great players in Devin Harris, [Jerry] Stackhouse and J.T., and their bigs are very active."

Mavs fans have ragged on Erick Dampier incessantly since he's arrived, which he deserved. Hard to back a guy when he's got a big deal and is just on cruise-control out there, especially for a team that brought him in to be a decisive difference-maker.

However, watching him this year, I see a guy who has worked hard on improving his touch, and doesn't drop the ball like it just came out of the oven when they dump it into the post. I see a guy who finishes with authority more. I see a guy who makes hustle plays, like the falling out of bounds great save on the offensive rebound and the kick back to Devin to preserve a critical possession in the fourth quarter, that led to a Dirk three-ball with the second chance tonite against Cleveland. Dirk has himself said that when Dampier is active and engaged, it raises the team's play to another level. It's easy to laugh about his second-best center self-description, he'll never be that kind of impact player, but he has been a huge plus for Dallas this year, and he's become much more consistent. He's running the floor better too, which makes me think he might be able to stay on it should we meet Phoenix in the playoffs.

Let's give Damp some love

[Shank]

People would show Damp some love, but he looks like he just wants to take a nap anyway.

[schadenfreude52]

I wasn't a fan of the whole Dampier-Nash thing when it was happening. Steve Nash was my favorite player for the Mavs and losing him was not easy for me. With time, however, I've grown to appreciate my neighbor when he's on (we're damn good when this happens). I hope he can be consistently great when the playoffs roll around.

[Trainwreck2100]

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2087/28weekslaterpostergn0.jpg >>>>>>http://www.underscope.com/images/articlepics/Eric%20Dampier.jpg

[atxrocker]

:lmao love? has skirt nowitzski showed him any love since calling his bitch ass out? fuck that dude. this thread is a joke.

[ponky]

i guess i was never one of *those* mavs fans...i like the entire team and though i get frustrated with certain ballers at times, i appreciate when they do well and damp has been doing very well...so has diop on the offense end which is quite surprising and refreshing to see

[dirk4mvp]

He playes well at times. And other times his hands are iron skillets.

[johngateswhiteley]

dampier blows.

[Findog]

dampier blows.

I'd rather have him than Francisco Elson or Jackie "Buffet" Butler. And I'd rather have Dirk than Duncan. So our frontcourt is far superior to yours.

[johngateswhiteley]

I'd rather have him than Francisco Elson or Jackie "Buffet" Butler. And I'd rather have Dirk than Duncan. So our frontcourt is far superior to yours.

i'd expect that from a mavs fan.

[Fromthebleachers]

:lmao love? has skirt nowitzski showed him any love since calling his bitch ass out? fuck that dude. this thread is a joke.
haha you rag on damp when arguably your best defensive big was Keon Clark. lol :lol :lol

[LEONARD]

Damp has been great in stretches...and bad in stretches. All in all, he (and Diop) give the Mavs what they need from the C position...

People love to hate on him WAY more than he deserves. Mainly because of how much he's paid...

[stretch]

I really feel like this deserves its own post instead of mentioning in the game recap threads. Saw this quote from LeBron:

'"This team is not going to win 50-plus games with just Josh Howard and Dirk Nowitzki," James said. "They have great players in Devin Harris, [Jerry] Stackhouse and J.T., and their bigs are very active."

Mavs fans have ragged on Erick Dampier incessantly since he's arrived, which he deserved. Hard to back a guy when he's got a big deal and is just on cruise-control out there, especially for a team that brought him in to be a decisive difference-maker.

However, watching him this year, I see a guy who has worked hard on improving his touch, and doesn't drop the ball like it just came out of the oven when they dump it into the post. I see a guy who finishes with authority more. I see a guy who makes hustle plays, like the falling out of bounds great save on the offensive rebound and the kick back to Devin to preserve a critical possession in the fourth quarter, that led to a Dirk three-ball with the second chance tonite against Cleveland. Dirk has himself said that when Dampier is active and engaged, it raises the team's play to another level. It's easy to laugh about his second-best center self-description, he'll never be that kind of impact player, but he has been a huge plus for Dallas this year, and he's become much more consistent. He's running the floor better too, which makes me think he might be able to stay on it should we meet Phoenix in the playoffs.

Let's give Damp some love

i agree. Damp has really played a lot harder this year. can he still play better? there is no question about it. but is he playing well enough for this team to win a title? i think so. as long as he hustles, and finishes well, i have nothing to complain about.

[monosylab1k]

I can't show too much love to a guy who claims the be the third best center in the league while averaging less than 8 points and 8 rebounds a game.

[Findog]

i'd expect that from a mavs fan.

And I'd expect a Spurs fan to shit on the Mavs every chance they get, which of course is how you chose to start this exchange. So touche.

[johngateswhiteley]

And I'd expect a Spurs fan to shit on the Mavs every chance they get, which of course is how you chose to start this exchange. So touche.

huh? i am not shitting on the mavs, dampier just happens to suck...a lot.

[Findog]

Damp has been great in stretches...and bad in stretches. All in all, he (and Diop) give the Mavs what they need from the C position...

People love to hate on him WAY more than he deserves. Mainly because of how much he's paid...

Exactly. He is what he is. If he was getting the midlevel instead of 10 million a year, we'd be praising him. Diop is not quite as good as Damp, but because he's not paid nearly as well, he gets nothing but love from Mavs fans because his contributions are in line with his compensation. I won't go so far as to say that Dampier is earning his pay this year, I think 10 million per is too much for what he brings, but he's far more consistent and engaged than at any time over the past two seasons. Just actually watching the games this year, he's helping us far more than he's hurting us, and I wanted to highlight that.

[Findog]

huh? i am not shitting on the mavs, dampier just happens to suck...a lot.

No, he doesn't suck, not this year anyway. If you ever bothered to watch our games, you'd know that. I'm not claiming he's the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell, just that he's an above-average center this year. When we beat you guys in six games in the conference finals this year, you'll see for yourself.

[johngateswhiteley]

Exactly. He is what he is.

exactly, he sucks.

[Findog]

exactly, he sucks.

So how do you feel about Elson and Butler?

[johngateswhiteley]

So how do you feel about Elson and Butler?

1. Butler - haven't seen him play yet

2. Elson - below average

[mFFL03]

Just keep getting those O-boards and D-boards Damp. He has a hard time going up strong, he'll try one pump fake....and trust me, it doesn't fool anyone.

[LEONARD]

dampier just happens to suck...a lot.


Elson - below average

Is below avg below suck? :lol

[mabber]

1. Butler - haven't seen him play yet

2. Elson - below average

Damp will get a lot of offensive rebounds vs. the Spurs if they meet in the playoffs as the Spurs have no one to stop him. He may not be a good offensive center but he can sure get offensive rebounds and play some D.

[mavsfan1000]

Dampier has been playing very well for the mavs. It just happens that a lot of people don't like his personality. I guess they like to crack jokes about him because of that.

[mFFL03]

He's a quite gentle beast.....but he does need to make himself more available and AWARE for the ball.....it seems to throw the other team off completely every time he touches the ball, and all he has to do is kick the ball back out.

[Trainwreck2100]

Damp will get a lot of offensive rebounds vs. the Spurs if they meet in the playoffs as the Spurs have no one to stop him. He may not be a good offensive center but he can sure get offensive rebounds and play some D.


Way to go out on a limb there, but with Finley prob. playing PF it's not that much of a stretch.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

i think Dampier is starting to fit his role

[T Park]

Dampier is an average to mediocre center.

Hes decent defensively, can block a shot or two, but offensively has the mind of a bannana slug.

Diop seems to understand the center role in dallas better than slick hands mcgirk, so hence why he plays more.

Diop plays as good a D on Duncan as any center I've ever seen.

When Dampier is in, Duncan eats and shits him out quickly,

Diop though, is smarter and seems to play him better.

EX OT game 7.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Erica sucks.

[Findog]

Diop seems to understand the center role in dallas better than slick hands mcgirk, so hence why he plays more.



When Dampier is in, Duncan eats and shits him out quickly,


.

No, you're wrong. Dampier gets 25 minutes a game, Diop gets about 16. Dampier does a decent job on Duncan, considering Duncan eats and shits out just about everybody quickly, that's why he's Tim Duncan, that's what he does. Part of why Diop is so effective against Duncan is that he only has to go at him for 15-20 minutes. Dampier brings a bit more muscle and bodying up, a different look if you will, while Diop can use his athleticism and agility to bother Duncan and keep him off balance.

[mabber]

Dampier is an average to mediocre center.

Hes decent defensively, can block a shot or two, but offensively has the mind of a bannana slug.

Diop seems to understand the center role in dallas better than slick hands mcgirk, so hence why he plays more.

Diop plays as good a D on Duncan as any center I've ever seen.

When Dampier is in, Duncan eats and shits him out quickly,

Diop though, is smarter and seems to play him better.

EX OT game 7.

Damp is a much better center than Diop. Diop may be a better defensive matchup on Duncan (and a few other players) but that's about it. Your opinion sounds like it's based on watching Diop play against the Spurs only.

[pussyface]

I can't show too much love to a guy who claims the be the third best center in the league while averaging less than 8 points and 8 rebounds a game.

dampier>>>leonordo di caprio.

i tend to be a damp supporter. the only time I have really been down on him was after his first run through the playoffs with us, in which he was a virtual no-show.

i dig this guy though...he gives us good minutes on a routine basis. also, as a long suffering mavs fan mediocrity at the center position looks pretty damn good to me.

[monosylab1k]

dampier>>>leonordo di caprio.

dicaprio's fucked gisele. the only thing dampier's fucked is his team.


i tend to be a damp supporter.

That's cuz you like guys with stone hands and no authority down low whatsoever. You like men you can dominate. Good for you.


the only time I have really been down on him was after his first run through the playoffs with us, in which he was a virtual no-show.

that dropped pass in the Finals was definitely a shining moment for him.


i dig this guy though...he gives us good minutes on a routine basis. also, as a long suffering mavs fan mediocrity at the center position looks pretty damn good to me.

if diop was capable of playing 48 minutes a game i'd do it.

people talking about how great damp is playing have no clue what a real center is supposed to do for his team. it's like praising the kid with tourette's for not saying "fuck on a stick" 100 times a day.

[pussyface]

dicaprio's fucked gisele. the only thing dampier's fucked is his team.



That's cuz you like guys with stone hands and no authority down low whatsoever. You like men you can dominate. Good for you.



that dropped pass in the Finals was definitely a shining moment for him.

people talking about how great damp is playing have no clue what a real center is supposed to do for his team. it's like praising the kid with tourette's for not saying "fuck on a stick" 100 times a day.
ill go point by point.
...sure, he fucked a hot girl. lots of hot girls go for douchey guys. justin timberlake banged scarlett johansson, but that doesn't mean it'll be cool to put that wigger as yr avatar or whatever either.

stone hands. have you watched any games this season? Stonehands Dampier is mostly a memory at this point. i bet if you look you will find that he has not turned the ball over with much regularity. he is frequently on the recieving end of dirk's assits of late.

as for your "shining Finals moment" diss, thats a pretty worthless criticism. no one's perfect, much less Eric Dampier who even his supporters such as myself will admit is mostly mediocre. This is no different than someone saying Dirk ain't all that cuz "remember that shining moment in Game 3 of the Finals when he missed that giant free throw?" shit happens...doesn't negate a player's overall contribution.

"people who say these things have no clue what the mavs need as center play."/"no authority downlow" forgetting that damp scores a whole lot of two handed dunks for someone with "no authority," mav's centers are in there to grab rebounds in traffic and play solid team defense, maybe collect a block or two while they are at it. by that measure dampier does a nice job. don't need the 5's bogging down and controlling the offense in the low post like you seem to be suggesting so authoritatively.

[monosylab1k]

...sure, he fucked a hot girl. lots of hot girls go for douchey guys. justin timberlake banged scarlett johansson, but that doesn't mean it'll be cool to put that wigger as yr avatar or whatever either.

Anybody that's stuck his dick in Gisele or Scarlett Johansson deserves a salute, and is more than worthy to be on my avatar. Of course I suppose when it's somebody like you who is into fucking other dudes, you're far too manly for that sort of thing.


stone hands.Stonehands Dampier is mostly a memory at this point.

Funny, everybody was saying the exact same thing at this time last season. And then came the playoffs...


as for your "shining Finals moment" diss, thats a pretty worthless criticism. no one's perfect, much less Eric Dampier who even his supporters such as myself will admit is mostly mediocre.

Everyone makes mistakes, sure. Some people more than others. Some a lot more than others. And then there's Erick Dampier, who damn near turns "fucking things up" into an Olympic sport.


This is no different than someone saying Dirk ain't all that cuz "remember that shining moment in Game 3 of the Finals when he missed that giant free throw?" shit happens...doesn't negate a player's overall contribution.

That would be a valid point except for the fact that among his mistakes, Dirk also contributes 20+ points, 10+ rebounds, numerous assists, leadership, and even some defense. Dampier gives you 7 and 6 and shit else.


forgetting that damp scores a whole lot of two handed dunks for someone with "no authority,"

It's easy to make one dunk a game when the other team has NO RESPECT FOR YOUR OFFENSIVE ABILITIES WHATSOEVER. With the amount of times I see him sitting around without anybody within three feet of him on offense, he oughta be scoring 20 points a night. Of course, if he got the ball passed to him any more than he gets it already, Avery's head might explode at the amount of times the ball bounces off his hands and goes out of bounds. And Diop is even getting dunks these days so what's your point there?


mav's centers are in there to grab rebounds in traffic and play solid team defense, maybe collect a block or two while they are at it. by that measure dampier does a nice job.

and diop does an even better job. also offensively, diop isn't too far behind dampier (which really isn't a compliment at all for diop, just stating that he's equally worthless offensively while being better defensively and showing a significant amount more authority and assertion).

[Findog]

That would be a valid point except for the fact that among his mistakes, Dirk also contributes 20+ points, 10+ rebounds, numerous assists, leadership, and even some defense. Dampier gives you 7 and 6 and shit else.


I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on Damp. I didn't start this thread suggesting he was the second coming of Bill Russell or Bill Walton, just that he has had a positive impact and exhibited a consistency that was missing his first two years in Dallas. I'll be the first to concede that he is a flawed player. When it comes to a true center*, after Yao, Shaq, Howard and Curry, there's a huge dropoff. Dampier is arguably the best of the rest.

Not to mention that your emphasis on Dampier's stastistics is misguided. Most basketball statistics only measure what happens when a player touches the ball. Point guards have the ball in their hands about 30% of the time, whereas it's 10% for everybody else. So most conventional basketball statistics only capture about 10% of what Dampier does on the court. It doesn't measure him bodying up Eddy Curry and forcing him to set up 2 feet farther out on the blocks than he would like, thus resulting in a weak post move and a missed shot leading to a defensive rebound. It doesn't measure when he aggressively comes out to show at the top of the key. It doesn't measure when he sets a good screen or busts his ass to get back on D. Dampier is leaving it out on the court this year. I've seen him with my own eyes take better care of the ball.

And considering the offensive weapons we have with Dirk, Jet, Howard, Devin and Stackhouse, Dampier is a fifth option, at best. If he's scoring lots of points then something is wrong. His job is to body up opposing bigs, show on screens, clean up loose change with putbacks on the offensive glass, rebound and hustle. He's doing his job well this year. His role is not to be Hakeem Olajuwon. He's more of a Bill Cartwright/Mark Eaton/James Donaldson serviceable type. His job is to basically not be a liability. He's accomplished that with ease this year, and he's a big part of why we're 57-11.

* I consider guys like Amare, Duncan and Gasol to be fours.

[ponky]

not sure about all this justin timeberlake, leo dicaprio talk but i do know one thing....trainwreck's pokemon avatar always makes me laugh

[stretch]

Point guards have the ball in their hands about 30% of the time, whereas it's 10% for everybody else.

30%+10%=40%.

???

where is the other 60%?

perhaps you mean PG's have it about 90% of the time?

[Trainwreck2100]

not sure about all this justin timeberlake, leo dicaprio talk but i do know one thing....trainwreck's pokemon avatar always makes me laugh


Why?

[Findog]

It comes out to an average of 18 percent each for the other four guys on the floor. Being the fifth offensive option, Dampier probably touches the ball only 10% of the time. I should've stated that differently. My bad.

[monosylab1k]

He's doing his job well this year.

I wouldn't say he's doing his job well. I'd just say he's sucking less. And I ask again....last year at this exact time, wasn't the talk of Mavs Land "hey! all things considered Dampier isn't doing half bad! Awesome!" Look how that turned out once the most unassertive player in the NBA had to face some playoff intensity.

And don't give me any "he was great in game 2" shit....I could care less what he did to put us up 2-0 in a series that we lost 4-2 that involved a series of constant fuckups from him.


He's more of a Bill Cartwright/Mark Eaton/James Donaldson serviceable type.

Except not as serviceable as any of those three. How many of them got 10 million a year? Honest question, I have no idea.


His job is to basically not be a liability.

I'm glad the Mavericks have 10 million dollars in their budget to have a guy try his best to not suck as much as he normally does. You can say "the money really doesn't matter" but it really does. If money really didn't matter, Michael Finley would still be on this team. But with the price they were paying versus the production they were getting, it made no sense for Finley to stick around. For the amount they're paying Dampier, he is underacheiving by a HEFTY margin. If there's no way to cut our losses with the guy, then at least demand a little more out of him.

Like I said, if we're not asking him to score, and all we're doing is asking him to body up, grab boards, and block shots.....then why is Dampier playing at all. We have Diop for all that, and Diop does it a hell of a lot better than Damp.

[Celtic Pride]

I have a question, Damp or the Preying Mantis? Damp and Diop have been the best Centers the Mavs have had since James Donaldson. Who could the Mavs get better without giving up half the team and still have a chance to win it all? Giving all of that, Damp deserves some props. Before Damp got to the Mavs, what props did the Mavs Centers get?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

monosylab you just might be my favorite mavs poster


good points about dampier, though i have to admit, he has won me over recently with his play, you have seen a lot more Mavs games than I have so I definitely think there is a lot of merit to your argument.

and yeah, I (surprisingly) agree with T park in that from the spurs vs mavs games I've seen, Diop does a very solid job on Duncan as his length does seem to bug him a bit

[ponky]

Why?

not sure, has something to do with the way all the characters fade out (pull to the background)

[ponky]

monosylab you just might be my favorite mavs poster


good points about dampier, though i have to admit, he has won me over recently with his play, you have seen a lot more Mavs games than I have so I definitely think there is a lot of merit to your argument.

and yeah, I (surprisingly) agree with T park in that from the spurs vs mavs games I've seen, Diop does a very solid job on Duncan as his length does seem to bug him a bit

WTF?!?!??!!? monosylab is overrated, it's all about ponky! :p:

[RonMexico]

What about Roy Tarpley?

Seriously, everybody on this board is in love with stone-handed centers who come up small in big moments - I can't believe Purple & Gold and Bob Lanier tried to tell me Kwame Brown was one of the best centers in the game as well.

[Shank]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41076000/jpg/_41076471_mcgrady.jpg

Bla-dow!

[Ignorant Spurs fan]

16 NBA Championships...A record 8 in a row from 1959-1966...Three separate Championship eras...When it comes to hanging Championship Banners, the Celtics are the cream of the crop. No organization has won more titles than the 16-time World Champion Boston Celtics. Whether it's the Green's first title in 1957, their 12th in 1974 or the 16th in 1986 the Celtics tradition of winning championships has stood the test of time.

if the Celtics last won a championship in 1986, how does that stand the test of time? by my count thats 20 years (21 years cause they arent winning this year :lol :lol :lol )

[Findog]

And I ask again....last year at this exact time, wasn't the talk of Mavs Land "hey! all things considered Dampier isn't doing half bad! Awesome!"

I don't know. I wasn't posting on Spurstalk at this time last year. Nobody was making commentary like that on the Lone Mavs forum. In any event, that's not evidence that he's playing poorly this year.

Look how that turned out once the most unassertive player in the NBA had to face some playoff intensity.

And don't give me any "he was great in game 2" shit....I could care less what he did to put us up 2-0 in a series that we lost 4-2 that involved a series of constant fuckups from him.


Are you still going on about ONE play? How bout that dunk in Game Five to momentarily put us up when Dirk was smothered by a triple team and Damp cut to the basket and slammed it home? I don't remember his playoff performance being any different, for better or worse, than his regular season performance. If you want to dissect Game Six, what about how we as a team kept jacking up contested three-pointers when both Shaq and Mourning were sitting on the bench?


Except not as serviceable as any of those three. How many of them got 10 million a year? Honest question, I have no idea.

How about they all played in a different era when salaries were not what they are today, and evaluating a player's contributions is a separate issue as to whether or not he's "earning" his salary?

Like I said, there's really only four premier franchise centers. I would agree that Dampier is overpaid, but not by much. Bigs are inherently more valuable and get more money than smalls. That's just the way it is. Evaluating his contributions is a separate matter from evaluating whether or not he's overpaid. Mark Cuban is the one who offered 10 million a year to a midlevel guy. What was Dampier supposed to do, say "No Mr. Cuban, I have trouble posting a double-double, could you please give me the midlevel instead?"

If you have a problem with Dampier's compensation, email Cuban about it. I think we have the second-highest payroll in the league after the Knicks and we have a lot of dead money still going out to Finley, Bradley, Eschmeyer and Wahid. Cuban is not a tightwad and he's demonstrated a willingness to go into luxury tax territory to field a contender. So why do you care so much about Dampier's contract?

I've watched the Mavs religiously for years and with my own eyes I've seen a much more effective center than I did his first two years in Dallas. You keep harping on a play here and a play there. Nobody is arguing that he's Wilt Chamberlain or that he's perfect. If you're going to condemn Dampier harshly for not making a play here or there, then you're going to have to be equally harsh on other players for the sake of consistency. As long as a guy is giving 100%, which I think Damp is doing for us this year, then it's folly to question a guy's heart, desire and resolve, or that he's not naturally as talented or good as Shaq or Kareem.

[monosylab1k]

Are you still going on about ONE play?

Yeah. He made one mistake all series. That's what I'm basing it on. If i'm being unneccesarily harsh, you're being unneccesarily lenient.


How bout that dunk in Game Five to momentarily

And that's all i need to read. momentarily. what did he do in the other 47 minutes of the game?


How about they all played in a different era when salaries were not what they are today, and evaluating a player's contributions is a separate issue as to whether or not he's "earning" his salary?

In an era where money is such a huge factor of the game, it must be taken into consideration.


What was Dampier supposed to do, say "No Mr. Cuban, I have trouble posting a double-double, could you please give me the midlevel instead?"

Dampier AVERAGED a double-double the year before he signed with the Mavs. If he was doing the same thing here, I wouldn't complain. And really, am I asking too much. At this point, he only needs to average about two more points and two more rebounds for me to be satisfied with him. He can't push himself hard enough to get two more points or two more rebounds? And the whole "Diop is here too" argument doesn't work....because if Dampier was playing here the way he played his last year in Golden State, then Diop would be Mbenga part 2. But Dampier's lack of any drive whatsoever is the reason we now see how good Diop is.


If you're going to condemn Dampier harshly for not making a play here or there, then you're going to have to be equally harsh on other players for the sake of consistency.

Not even close. If the other players were contributing to this team as little as Dampier, they'd be getting the same criticism. Dirk, Terry, Howard, etc. are contributing significantly for this team, regardless of their contract status or who's backing them up or what they're asked to do....so I can live with the occasional mistake from them.


As long as a guy is giving 100%, which I think Damp is doing for us this year, then it's folly to question a guy's heart, desire and resolve

And watching games all year, I still don't see a guy giving 100%. When I see the energy and intensity Diop brings when he's in the game, versus that which Dampier brings....it's clear that Dampier is still playing tentative and not always completely busting his ass. Which is why I'd always rather have Diop in the game over Damp.

[monosylab1k]

good points about dampier, though i have to admit, he has won me over recently with his play, you have seen a lot more Mavs games than I have so I definitely think there is a lot of merit to your argument.

Yeah, and I'm not saying Dampier isn't playing better right now than he ever has as a Maverick. But to make that statement really isn't say a whole hell of a lot.

Gimme Diop in there any day over Damp.

[Findog]

And that's all i need to read. momentarily. what did he do in the other 47 minutes of the game?

What happened right after that is Wade getting bailed out by the refs. Hard to put that on Damp.




In an era where money is such a huge factor of the game, it must be taken into consideration.

The only thing to take into consideration when evaluating a player's performance is A) how much talent does he have? and B) does he give 100% out on the court?

What you're doing is playing General Manager and making a judgment about Dampier's contract, which incidentally I don't disagree with you about. You're just conflating the coach and general manager caps.




Dampier AVERAGED a double-double the year before he signed with the Mavs. If he was doing the same thing here, I wouldn't complain. And really, am I asking too much. At this point, he only needs to average about two more points and two more rebounds for me to be satisfied with him. He can't push himself hard enough to get two more points or two more rebounds?

His last year in Golden State he put up numbers on a shitty team because he got lots of looks and touches. Two less points and two less rebounds is not all the surprising given that he's on an elite team now where he's at best the fifth offensive option and Dirk and Howard are both good rebounders.



Which is why I'd always rather have Diop in the game over Damp.

Do you know something Avery doesn't? I always thought the reason Dampier got more minutes is because he's a bit better offensively and Diop doesn't have the greatest conditioning or stamina. I think there's a reason Dampier gets 25 mpg and Diop only 16. If Diop were suddenly asked to start playing 30+ a night, I think his effectiveness would go down steeply. As with everybody else on this team, Avery has a way of maximizing Diop's strengths and hiding his flaws and weaknesses.

[monosylab1k]

What happened right after that is Wade getting bailed out by the refs. Hard to put that on Damp.

LOL okay well if ur in the "the refs screwed us" camp, then I seriously need to question your judgement in anything basketball related.


The only thing to take into consideration when evaluating a player's performance is A) how much talent does he have? and B) does he give 100% out on the court?

15 years ago, sure. In the era of salary caps and guaranteed contracts, you HAVE to take money into consideration.


His last year in Golden State he put up numbers on a shitty team because he got lots of looks and touches.

And perhaps that should have been taken into consideration before signing him to an ungodly contract.


Two less points and two less rebounds is not all the surprising

It's actually 4 less points and 4 less rebounds. He put up 12/12/2blocks in GS. I just said two and two because that's what he needs to average a double-double right now.


Do you know something Avery doesn't?

I know it's blasphemy to criticize Avery for anything, but he's got his little pets that he likes to insist on playing no matter what, along with people that are in his doghouse no matter what they do. He stated from the beginning that he was determined to turn Dampier into a great center, and it doesn't matter that Diop outplays him, he's going to keep forcing the issue with Dampier. He does the same thing with Stackhouse. I realize that Stack's done some great things for this team, but there are times where his carelessness REALLY hurts this team alot. And while Marquis Daniels wasn't perfect, there were times in the playoffs last season where this team really could have benefited from having Daniels in there instead of Stack. But Stack is Avery's buddy and Marquis was always in the doghouse, so Stack got to shoot 4 for 16 while Daniels wasted away on the bench.

[Findog]

LOL okay well if ur in the "the refs screwed us" camp, then I seriously need to question your judgement in anything basketball related.



Do you have to choose? How bout both? We screwed ourselves by not showing up at all in Game 4, playing subpar in Game 6 and letting them back into it in Game 3. As for Game 5, I don't see how anybody outside of Miami can deny Wade in particular and the Heat in general were bailed out by the refs. There's three other games in that series that can't be pinned on Bennett Salvatore. There's no doubt in my mind that the team that went back to Dallas up 3-2 was winning the series.



15 years ago, sure. In the era of salary caps and guaranteed contracts, you HAVE to take money into consideration.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. You're talking about constructing a roster and spending your money efficiently. I'm talking about winning a game tomorrow, or more specifically, winning 16 games starting a month from now. When it comes to the question of "Is Damp leaving it all out on the court and doing enough for us to win a title?" then the answer is yes.




But Stack is Avery's buddy and Marquis was always in the doghouse, so Stack got to shoot 4 for 16 while Daniels wasted away on the bench.

Stackhouse has an occassional clunker shooting-wise. So does Dirk or Terry or Howard. But what has Marquis Daniels done this year for Indiana? Nothing. Like Dampier, Stackhouse has had his ups and downs production-wise here in Dallas, but he was pretty good in the playofs last year and he's been pretty consistent and pretty good this year as well. And while we're comparing Stackhouse to Daniels, the former is a "heavy" that garners respect all throughout the league and has helped instill a measure of toughness to a formerly soft team. Daniels is a guy who had a few good games as a rookie and has failed to live up to the promise he showed. Who do you think his busting his ass and maximizing everything he has, Stack or the guy carousing out at titty bars until the wee hours of the morning? I'll take Stack over Daniels everytime.

[monosylab1k]

Do you have to choose? How bout both?

It's either the refs screwed us or they didn't. Bad calls are a part of the game. It's bullshit but you learn to live with it. But the refs didn't have shit to do with any game of that series.


When it comes to the question of "Is Damp leaving it all out on the court and doing enough for us to win a title?" then the answer is yes.

And I still maintain that Diop does it better. As far as him leaving it all out on the court....I rarely see that out of Damp. No doubt Avery's getting more out of him than any other coach possibly could, but I still see a guy that tries to half-ass it every chance he gets, and occasionally shows up to play.

As far as him being a key to our winning a title - well, didn't you just say that his job was to not be a liability? How does having a guy like that help win titles?


But what has Marquis Daniels done this year for Indiana? Nothing.

And what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? We're talking about what he did in Dallas, not what he's doing in Indiana.


Like Dampier, Stackhouse has had his ups and downs production-wise here in Dallas, but he was pretty good in the playofs last year and he's been pretty consistent and pretty good this year as well.

No doubt Stack's helped us. He's also helped us lose a good number of playoff games with his poor shooting and even more atrocious shot selection.


Daniels is a guy who had a few good games as a rookie and has failed to live up to the promise he showed.

Again, a result of being slotted by Avery. Once Nellie was gone, there was no way Avery was ever going to give Marquis a chance.


Who do you think his busting his ass and maximizing everything he has, Stack or the guy carousing out at titty bars until the wee hours of the morning?

Again, this has to do with what Daniels did in Dallas. Was he going to be a strip club frequenter who gets into gunfights if he was still with the Mavericks? His environment in Indiana is causing that.

If we're going to bring that into question, then how about Stack's reputation BEFORE he came to Dallas....remember that? There was talk about him being the worst teammate and biggest locker room cancer in the league. People to this day still try to hold that against him. He was a product of his environment, just like Marquis is right now. What he's doing in Indiana is completely irrelevant, because he is a different person there than he would be if he was still here.


I'll take Stack over Daniels everytime.

And whenever Stack's shot is falling and he knows his role, I will too. But there have been far too many times where Stackhouse isn't shooting well, and times where he starts thinking he's the star of his team again and begins throwing up the worst looking shots imaginable. In times like that, I would much rather have had Marquis in there. If anything to throw a curveball to the opposing team. But like I said, Avery's got his buddies and his whipping boys, and that won't change.

[Skip Bayless]

His last year in Golden State he put up numbers on a shitty team because he got lots of looks and touches.

no you imcompetent douche. he got more points because he was in a contract year. dont you know anything about sports?

Im convinced that Dampier's play puts Dallas over the edge. right now i would take Dampier over that washed up "has been" in Tim Duncan. Frankly, the current Dallas Dynasty is on a tear that might never be equaled in the current Cenozoic Era.

[mabber]

Damp & Diop both need to be motivated on a regular basis which is ridiculous for a professional athlete. To say (I forget who said it above) that Diop brings it everyday and Damp doesn't is ridiculous. Although Damp still needs to be motivated from time to time, at least he spent a lot of time in the off season working on his game & conditioning. Diop came into camp out of shape and was fairly worthless for the first month of the season. Diop is a better shot-blocker and does a better job defensively against quicker big men but Damp is a better offensive player and rebounder (especically offensive rebounding). As mentioned, both players seem to not be motivated for a few games every now and then. You can always tell when Avery has given each of them a little motivational speech as their increased efforts are obvious.

I think together they work well for what the Mavs need out of that position. They both just need to be more consistent as it would be nice for both of them to be playing really hard at the same time (which is rare).

[Findog]

It's either the refs screwed us or they didn't. Bad calls are a part of the game. It's bullshit but you learn to live with it. But the refs didn't have shit to do with any game of that series.


They say that when it comes to pregnancy, you are or you aren't. They say that when it comes to being a homosexual, you're either gay or you're not gay. There's no such thing as in between. But I think there IS such a thing as being between the "We got screwed!" and "Suck it up and stop whining!" camps. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Game Five. It's not just Maverick fans who maintain we were jobbed in that one. Do you recall Maverick defenders being alllowed to body up Wade and aggressively defend him? No, he got a bushel of ticky-tack fouls. Did Haslem and Posey get leeway from the officials to body up Dirk and be aggressive and physical? Hell yes. If it comes down to a missed call here or there, you put yourself in that position by not taking care of business. There's three games in that series where Miami earned a win. Game Five was egregious. Like I said, the team that won Game Five was most likely going on to win the series. Miami was not going to go back to Dallas and win two straight, and it was going to be extremely hard for Dallas to do the same.


As far as him being a key to our winning a title - well, didn't you just say that his job was to not be a liability? How does having a guy like that help win titles?

Yeah, he's an upgrade over Bradley, LaFrentz and Scott Williams.




And what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? We're talking about what he did in Dallas, not what he's doing in Indiana.

Now that he's been given a fresh start and a chance to start over and show what he can do, he's done nothing with it. Rick Carslisle doesn't seem to be any more impressed with him than Avery.



Again, this has to do with what Daniels did in Dallas. Was he going to be a strip club frequenter who gets into gunfights if he was still with the Mavericks? His environment in Indiana is causing that.


What, you think he all of the sudden turned into a lazy troublemaker in Indy? I have a coworker that is friends with Marquis. Daniels has enjoyed the reefer and late night carousing for quite some time, and this was part of what caused problems for him with Avery.


If we're going to bring that into question, then how about Stack's reputation BEFORE he came to Dallas....remember that? There was talk about him being the worst teammate and biggest locker room cancer in the league. People to this day still try to hold that against him. He was a product of his environment, just like Marquis is right now. What he's doing in Indiana is completely irrelevant, because he is a different person there than he would be if he was still here.

Well, when Marquis starts contributing on the court and staying into trouble off of it, then I'll agree with you. Stackhouse has already proven his worth and the doubters wrong. Daniels is nowhere near reaching that threshold yet.

[Findog]

no you imcompetent douche. he got more points because he was in a contract year. dont you know anything about sports?

Im convinced that Dampier's play puts Dallas over the edge. right now i would take Dampier over that washed up "has been" in Tim Duncan. Frankly, the current Dallas Dynasty is on a tear that might never be equaled in the current Cenozoic Era.

Stick to what you do best: Falsely outing Troy Aikman.

[DarrinS]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/gay8.jpg

[monosylab1k]

Yeah, he's an upgrade over Bradley, LaFrentz and Scott Williams.

And what does that matter? Just because we've had total dog shit at center means that all of a sudden we can lower our standards and just accept mediocre because "hey, mediocre is better than total dog shit!"???? Just because Dampier is better than Shawn Fucking Bradley doesn't mean he's the best option at center for THIS team. To think that Dampier is our best option at center is one of two things - 1) lazy scouting by the Mavericks (which I highly doubt) or 2) Avery forcing the issue with Dampier.


Now that he's been given a fresh start

What fresh start? He's playing on the most dysfunctional franchise in the NBA for a horrible head coach? How is that a fresh start?


What, you think he all of the sudden turned into a lazy troublemaker in Indy? I have a coworker that is friends with Marquis.

LOL. Yeah dude....I've got a coworker who's friends with Marquis as well. He says he was a model citizen in Dallas. This coworker also hangs out with Gheorge Muresan and Sydney Pollack on a regular basis.


Daniels has enjoyed the reefer and late night carousing for quite some time, and this was part of what caused problems for him with Avery.

If that's the case, I'm sure Avery must have a problem with 75% of his team then. If you think Daniels was the only one enjoying a little weed and partying, you're hilariously mistaken. I believe there's very embarrassing pictures of Dirk's partying ways. But in Dallas, there's at least enough discipline to stay away from sketchy areas of town....not the same in Indiana.


Well, when Marquis starts contributing on the court and staying into trouble off of it, then I'll agree with you. Stackhouse has already proven his worth and the doubters wrong. Daniels is nowhere near reaching that threshold yet.

Jesus fucking Christ, like i've said ad nauseam, this has NOTHING to do with Daniel's performance this season...it has everything to do with Stackhouse having some supremely awful playoff games, but Avery continuing to play his buddy instead of giving Daniels a chance, especially after a season where Daniels provided a spark and energy for the team for the small amounts of time he was allowed in the game.

[monosylab1k]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/gay8.jpg

Oh yes, a great contribution from the guy who can't write a coherent sentence or any kind of a structured argument, so he responds with lightly humorous pictures. Good job.

[johngateswhiteley]

dampier sucks.

[TheBlueVan]

ANYONE arguing for daniels is doing some pretty selective cutting and pasting together of good games. dampier plays harder night in and night out and is more consistent than marquis. after his rookie year, and even a little bit during it (under Don Nelson, the god-king) he played with his head up his ass more often than not.

he had so much potential that IF he would have worked at it, he would still be here. do you honestly think that if avery saw anything from him he would have traded him away to indiana? and i dont know how you can say that this season is irrelevant. he got a chance on a new team, one with a lot less depth ahead of him and in a terrible conference. and he still cant play. darrel armstrong is seeing more time.

i was a huge quis fan for awhile but his game never grew. he cant hit the corner three like stack, and daniels could never give the mavs what stackhouse is giving them with assists this year.

everyone wants to bag on stackhouse for the last couple years, but honestly this year hes been really consistent and has found some really good ways to help the team. if he doesnt score, he gets assists. sometimes he's even played some decent defense, and every once in awhile, he'll go off with a bang. the difference this year is that when he's not scoring, hes finding other ways to help the team

[Celtic Pride]

if the Celtics last won a championship in 1986, how does that stand the test of time? by my count thats 20 years (21 years cause they arent winning this year :lol :lol :lol )

It took the Spurs 24 years to win their 1st. :lol
How many more years to win 13 more? :lol

Celts 16

Spurs 3

[THE SIXTH MAN]

It took the Spurs 24 years to win their 1st. :lol
How many more years to win 13 more? :lol

Celts 16

Spurs 3
Is your dad also your brother?

[Celtic Pride]

Is your dad also your brother?

Is your mouth also your asshole?
Your great at insulting people, I wish your basketball IQ was that good.

Celtics 91
Spurs 85 :lol

[Findog]

No doubt Stack's helped us. He's also helped us lose a good number of playoff games with his poor shooting and even more atrocious shot selection.

What playoff games would those be, exactly? I'm wondering exactly which of those 16 playoff losses Stack has been a part of where you would solely put the blame on him.



Again, this has to do with what Daniels did in Dallas. Was he going to be a strip club frequenter who gets into gunfights if he was still with the Mavericks? His environment in Indiana is causing that.

That's funny. Let's flog Dampier relentlessly and then be an apologist for a guy with an attitude problem that can't seem to be bothered with preparing himself for games. If he can't stay out of trouble in Indi-freaking-napolis, how would he fare in a place like Dallas? Whatever happened to expecting people to be professionals, personal responsibility, accountability? If I were a guy like Daniels, and I was struggling to get minutes and be part of the rotation of a shitty Leastern team, I'd be a gym rat instead of a strip club rat. He should have the good sense enough to put basketball first. He got that big midlevel deal and he hasn't been the same player since. I think a bit of roster insecurity would do wonders for him if he's up to the challenge, because I DO think he's got promise and potential. But it's ridiculous to put him in the same sentence as Stack. Stack's accomplished a hell of a lot more in his career and reinvented himself. When Daniels does the same, then we can talk.


If we're going to bring that into question, then how about Stack's reputation BEFORE he came to Dallas....remember that? There was talk about him being the worst teammate and biggest locker room cancer in the league. People to this day still try to hold that against him.

Stackhouse has proven those people wrong. Daniels has had ample opportunities to do the same and can't get it done.


And I'm not necessarily antipot or anti-strip club. I happen to be high right now. Michael Irvin could handle the nonstop partying. He still found time to prepare for the games. If Daniels was producing at a comparable level, he'd get a pass. You're not supposed to a give a guy a pass when he's not producing and he's out at night carousing. You have to earn that slack.

[monosylab1k]

What playoff games would those be, exactly? I'm wondering exactly which of those 16 playoff losses Stack has been a part of where you would solely put the blame on him.

Game 1 of the WCSF, for starters. I'll put it this way - Stack is responsible for more Mavs playoff losses than Dwyane Wade or any ref.


That's funny. Let's flog Dampier relentlessly and then be an apologist for a guy with an attitude problem that can't seem to be bothered with preparing himself for games.

Aren't those one and the same?


Stack's accomplished a hell of a lot more in his career and reinvented himself. When Daniels does the same, then we can talk.

You're not getting the fucking point. What he's doing in Indiana is completely fucking irrelevant. If you're gonna keep harping on this, then you've obviously got no argument. I was talking about LAST YEAR with the MAVERICKS and how a few less 3 for 10 games from Stack and a few more minutes from Daniels would have done this team some good.

Why you keep bringing up what Daniels is currently doing, I have no clue. I don't give a fuck what he's doing for some other team. But he was a solid, if inconsistent, contributor last season, and looking at the way Stackhouse played, I'd say Stack was the exact same thing. Daniels had a different skill set, and he tended to attack the basket a little more. So are you saying that this team didn't need to attack the basket any more than they did in the playoffs last year? That Stack jacking up 20 footers with 2 guys in his face was a better option than possibly giving Daniels a shot at dropping in a few easy buckets?

[Findog]

Game 1 of the WCSF, for starters. I'll put it this way - Stack is responsible for more Mavs playoff losses than Dwyane Wade or any ref.

Ah, the retreat back to the three-point line. You lose as a team and you win as a team. Who had the faulty rotation and left Bowen available for an open three in the closing moments? Stack fucked up there, but he wasn't the only one.


You're not getting the fucking point. What he's doing in Indiana is completely fucking irrelevant. .

It's completely relevant because you keep insisting that he got a raw deal here in Dallas and was kept off the court because Avery doesn't make the most astute decisions when it comes to doling out playing time. Now he's on a lesser talented team with a real hole at shooting guard, a much better position to prove that he deserved some of Stack's minutes, and he still can't get on the court or contribute when he does. This season is relevant because it's proved that until he decides to start working harder, he's a spare, and he's going to remain a spare.

[monosylab1k]

It's completely relevant because you keep insisting that he got a raw deal here in Dallas and was kept off the court because Avery doesn't make the most astute decisions when it comes to doling out playing time.

And he doesn't. How else do you explain Nowitzki getting 41 minutes against ATLANTA while Croshere gets a DNP?

Like I said, I don't care one bit about what Daniels does on some other team. A player can be successful in one system while being a failure in another. How well or poorly he plays in Indiana is not at all indicative of how well or poorly he would have played if given a better opportunity here in Dallas......unless of course you're trying to say that the Dallas Mavericks system is run about as well as the Indiana Pacers.

[monosylab1k]

Stack fucked up there

thank you. his shot selection can be absolutely atrocious at times, and in times like that, the best place for Stackhouse is the bench. But seeing how he's Avery's little buddy, that won't happen. He'll just get to shoot 25% from the field.

[mabber]

thank you. his shot selection can be absolutely atrocious at times, and in times like that, the best place for Stackhouse is the bench. But seeing how he's Avery's little buddy, that won't happen. He'll just get to shoot 25% from the field.

As long as Stack is passing as well as he's been doing, and playing decent defense...I think Avery is willing to put up with the times when he's shooting poorly. I think most coaches have to be willing to put up with cold shooting from "scorers" like Stack. Stack is not a "shooter" so you really can't ask him to pick his spots to shoot. I understand that with this thinking you have to put up with some instances where Stack can hurt the team but overall he's a big positive for the team. Everyone has the right to their own opinion but I think you're apparent hatred for him is not letting you see the entire picture. I was and still am not a Stack fan but he's won me over because of his overall value to this team. I can take the occasional bad streaks.

I won't even go into the Daniels comparison to Stackhouse cuz that's just seriously ridiculous to me. Daniels didn't bring anything to the Mavs but an occasional good game. I still don't know if he's an under-achiever or just an inconsistent player but I'm more than ok with him not being on the team anymore. I really had high hopes for him and defended him all the time but he's just turned out to be an average to below-average NBA player.

[monosylab1k]

Sometimes I seriously hate being a Mavs fan in this day and age.

It's funny how eager Mavs fans are willing to shit on a player as soon as they're gone, forgetting any good that they mave have contributed to this team. Just because he didn't develop as quickly as Josh Howard, suddenly Daniels is total shit. They forget that the guy made big contributions for this team at times, and always shot at a high percentage. But then again, what else would I expect from a group of fans classless enough to boo Michael Finley.

[mabber]

Sometimes I seriously hate being a Mavs fan in this day and age.

It's funny how eager Mavs fans are willing to shit on a player as soon as they're gone, forgetting any good that they mave have contributed to this team. Just because he didn't develop as quickly as Josh Howard, suddenly Daniels is total shit. They forget that the guy made big contributions for this team at times, and always shot at a high percentage. But then again, what else would I expect from a group of fans classless enough to boo Michael Finley.

I wasn't shitting on him. I was just stating my opinion of his game and how he never seemed to get any better (still hasn't). I was really hoping he'd improve but he didn't. I was hopeful after how well he played the last 2 months of the 2004-05 season (I think?) but that never carried over. Whether it's due to not enough playing time or the fact that he can't stay healthy is yet to be determined. Nothing has changed with him in Indiana so there's still no evidence that it ever will. I realize that you don't care what's happening with him now but that's all we have to go on at this point. Why would you not take into consideration how he's doing in Indiana?

FinDog was and will always be my favorite Mav player. I, personally, don't know any Mav fans that boo'd Mike but there were some (I think mostly in fun-allbeit bad taste IMO cuz the Spurs were in town)(no one in my section was booing) but to group all Mav fans as classless cuz a few boo'd Finley and a couple disagree with you about the abilities of Daniels & Damp is kinda silly, don't you think?

[monosylab1k]

Why would you not take into consideration how he's doing in Indiana?

It's because I don't think you can judge a player by how he does on another team, because it's a completely different set of circumstances. To say that he wouldn't improve in Dallas simply because he hasn't improved in Indiana is basically saying that the Dallas system of developing players is only as good as Indiana's system.


to group all Mav fans as classless cuz a few boo'd Finley and a couple disagree with you about the abilities of Daniels & Damp is kinda silly, don't you think?

people can disagree with me all they want. that's fine. and it was raining boos on Finley in the playoffs, not just a few.

[monosylab1k]

Diop is still better than Dampier. But in all honesty I don't think Damp is horrible. He's got some value to this team. He's just incredibly overpaid, and definitely overrated by Mavs fans.