Our big 3 vs Mavs big 3

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It seems to me that our big 3 (manu, td, tp) are actually less consistent than the Mavs big 3 (dirk, terry, howard)


Very rarely do we have the spurs big 3 ALL playing well in the same game.

Usually its 2 out of the 3 playing solid during a game


But with the Mavs, 90% if the time it seems like all 3 of their big 3 shows up with the occassional off game


Considering how much of a question mark our bench is to begin with, do you guys all consider it a given our big 3 will play well?

Manu tends to be a bit streaky at times, though his 2005 performance was an incredible run

and Parker is improving by the year, so here's to hoping he steps up better than ever in the playoffs


So should we meet the Mavs, are our big 3 of any concern to anyone or is it the bench that will be the deciding factor? Which I think it probably will be

[Nikos]

Actually the Mavs Big 6 are more consistent than the Spurs Big 6. In other words Dallas' 4-5-6th best players are > the Spurs 4-5-6 best players.

[LEONARD]

I don't think the Mavs "big 3" are all on 90% of the time. Howard seems to be the most inconsistent, and the most frustrating about him is he's great in the 1st quarter and not great in the 4th for some reason...

Stackhouse is really part of the "big 4" IMO...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Actually the Mavs Big 6 are more consistent than the Spurs Big 6. In other words Dallas' 4-5-6th best players are > the Spurs 4-5-6 best players.


that's a good point


I was able to rewatch some games from last year's playoff series and I almost forgot how bad our D was for most of that series. For all the talk about who needs to step up, allowing the Mavs to hit 100 virtually every game (though some games went to OT) isn't going to cut it

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I don't think the Mavs "big 3" are all on 90% of the time. Howard seems to be the most inconsistent, and the most frustrating about him is he's great in the 1st quarter and not great in the 4th for some reason...

Stackhouse is really part of the "big 4" IMO...


Well i was hoping Mav fans would post too in this thread, because I don't see too much inconsistency amongst their big 3. With the Spurs you know what you'll get with TD, Tp often shows up, but Manu is either really on or really off.


Also, at least with Howard, if his shots aren't falling he still rebounds better than anyone on the Spurs not named Tim Duncan. So he can stillcontribute efficiently.

Parker on the other hand, if he resorts to his outside shooting and those shots seem to fall less and less often for him as the season wears on, then he's rendered as virtually useless if he can't get into the lane.

[mardigan]

Yea, when you take the next 3, (Barry, Finley, Elson), vs there next 3 (Harris, Stack, Damp) there is no contest

[mabber]

that's a good point


I was able to rewatch some games from last year's playoff series and I almost forgot how bad our D was for most of that series. For all the talk about who needs to step up, allowing the Mavs to hit 100 virtually every game (though some games went to OT) isn't going to cut it

I think, if they meet, the key matchup will be Harris trying to stay with TP. The Mavs really have nobody that can guard Duncan and the Spurs have no one that can guard Dirk (assuming that Bowen will be on Howard most of the time) so that's a wash IMO. If Harris can somehow keep TP from making so many layups then the Mavs should be in good shape.

[mabber]

I don't think the Mavs "big 3" are all on 90% of the time. Howard seems to be the most inconsistent, and the most frustrating about him is he's great in the 1st quarter and not great in the 4th for some reason...

Stackhouse is really part of the "big 4" IMO...

I agree. The Spurs really had a hard time matching up with Stack. I think they used Barry on him and it didn't work out too well.

[dbreiden83080]

I think, if they meet, the key matchup will be Harris trying to stay with TP. The Mavs really have nobody that can guard Duncan and the Spurs have no one that can guard Dirk (assuming that Bowen will be on Howard most of the time) so that's a wash IMO. If Harris can somehow keep TP from making so many layups then the Mavs should be in good shape.

Harris is a big key for you guys because our back up PG is a mess this year and will be a big point of emphasis for the Spurs in the offseason. Duncan and Dirk will cancel eachother out, both go for 25-30 every game of the series, same as last time. Key will be how well do Manu and Tony play compared to Terry and Howard and whose bench steps up the most.

[lebomb]

Shit, if you are gonna say the Mavs 3,4,5 > Spurs 5, you are basically saying the Mavs > Spurs period. Because their bench is every bit as good as ours.......younger also.

:(

[nkdlunch]

top 3 we're pretty even. Undercover brother and Carlton are pretty inconsistent.

but yeah, Stack + Devin + Dampier are better than our next 3.

still, we have a great chance vs. them.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Shit, if you are gonna say the Mavs 3,4,5 > Spurs 5, you are basically saying the Mavs > Spurs period. Because their bench is every bit as good as ours.......younger also.

:(

:lol


well I don't think it was any secret Mavs > Spurs but it's not like the Spurs have no chance of winning the series. It's just gonna be a very very tough series.

[phyzik]

Key matchup for me is going to be one of our bigs (Fab/Elson) on Dirk. If they can just put a hand in his face that will be fine, they dont have to necessarily be a "Dirk Stopper". If we can get at least that from our bigs it changes the whole outlook with Bruce free to guard one of the other threats thats more his size.

A big on Dirk that can run the floor and get a hand up is going to be a huge key.

[mardigan]

Yea, but I didnt even mention the Dirk slayer, Matt mother f-ing Bonner

[mabber]

Yea, but I didnt even mention the Dirk slayer, Matt mother f-ing Bonner

Won't he only be in the game when the Mavs put in their own spare, slow white guy (Croshere)? :lol

[mardigan]

Won't he only be in the game when the Mavs put in their own spare, slow white guy (Croshere)? :lol

And then the courts will clear, and the 2 pastiest guys in the league shall battle to the death

[mabber]

And then the courts will clear, and the 2 pastiest guys in the league shall battle to the death

:lol

My money would be on Bonner.

[mardigan]

:lol And mine on Croshere

[Kori Ellis]

To think the Mavs Big 3 are on 90% of the time, probably means you don't watch enough Mavs games :lol

In his last five games, JHoward has had games of seven points (2 for 9 shooting in 40 minutes) and twelve points.

[phyzik]

Keys to Victory

1. Kori Distracts Pop

2. TimVP sits in pops chair and does some quick substitutions to get rid of small ball before Pop turns around.

3. repeat from step one.

[hater]

Undercover brother and Carlton are pretty inconsistent.


Mavs Big 3:

http://www.cinema.com/image_lib/5684_001_thumb.jpghttp://static.flickr.com/49/151967054_54ece67fcf_m.jpghttp://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/caveman.jpg

[dbreiden83080]

To think the Mavs Big 3 are on 90% of the time, probably means you don't watch enough Mavs games :lol

In his last five games, JHoward has had games of seven points (2 for 9 shooting in 40 minutes) and twelve points.

True but it is not like Manu and Tony are always playing well together either. Usually it is Tim and one or the other backing him up with good play.

[stretch]

To think the Mavs Big 3 are on 90% of the time, probably means you don't watch enough Mavs games :lol

In his last five games, JHoward has had games of seven points (2 for 9 shooting in 40 minutes) and twelve points.
Howard doesnt have to score to contribute. he can defend, rebound, handle the ball, and other stuff. thats the difference between him and Parker. unless Parker is scoring, hes pretty much useless. he cant defend, hes not a good passer, and is too small to do much of anything else.

[ShoogarBear]

It's a lot easier for your Big 3 to be consistent the bench is more consistent.

If the Big 3 have to carry the team every night, it's going to catch up with you in the long run.

I still take the Spurs Big 3 over the Mavs. What would happen if they swapped Little 9s?

[Kori Ellis]

Howard doesnt have to score to contribute. he can defend, rebound, handle the ball, and other stuff. thats the difference between him and Parker. unless Parker is scoring, hes pretty much useless. he cant defend, hes not a good passer, and is too small to do much of anything else.

So you think he was absolutely great in the 2-for-9 game? He got some boards, but turned the ball over, fouled a bit, and looked pretty much useless to me.

My point wasn't to bash Howard at all; he's one of my top 5 favorite players not on the Spurs. I was just pointing out that every player in the NBA has off nights.

The Spurs Big 3's off nights may look worse because they don't have much to offer outside the Big 3.

[dbreiden83080]

Howard doesnt have to score to contribute. he can defend, rebound, handle the ball, and other stuff. thats the difference between him and Parker. unless Parker is scoring, hes pretty much useless. he cant defend, hes not a good passer, and is too small to do much of anything else.

Tony is a better defender than people give him credit for. He is every bit as good a player as Terry with half the EGO.

[cheguevara]

Spurs big 3 > Mavs big 3
Spurs rest of team <<<<< Mavs rest of team

[stretch]

too bad he dissapears when it matters most. thats the 1 reason why I will take Terry over Parker. Parker is as good or better than Terry in every area except shooting, and clutchness.

[stretch]

So you think he was absolutely great in the 2-for-9 game? He got some boards, but turned the ball over, fouled a bit, and looked pretty much useless to me.

My point wasn't to bash Howard at all; he's one of my top 5 favorite players not on the Spurs. I was just pointing out that every player in the NBA has off nights.

The Spurs Big 3's off nights may look worse because they don't have much to offer outside the Big 3.
I never once said he was absolutely great in that game. But he did make a few plays that did help us well, and I thought did a solid job on Lebron. he guarded him well when on him, and did a good job of doubling him when he wasnt his man.

im just saying that he is much more capable of contributing to the team when he isnt scoring, as opposed to Parker.

[Kori Ellis]

too bad he dissapears when it matters most. thats the 1 reason why I will take Terry over Parker. Parker is as good or better than Terry in every area except shooting, and clutchness.

Mavs-Spurs Series 2006 (with Parker on one leg)

Parker - 20.1 ppg, 3.1 apg, 42%
Terry - 19.7 ppg, 3.2 apg, 43%

Parker had absolutely no lift in the Mavs series, but managed 20 ppg (I realize that some games he was horrible and that his shooting percentage sucked, going down to Terry-esque level but that's what happens when you can barely walk).

Parker in the Kings series 22ppg/5apg/51%.

[monosylab1k]

right now, the Mavs Big 3 are a little better I think.

But there's a big difference between Regular Season Duncan and Playoff Duncan.

There's not much difference between Regular Season Dirk and Playoff Dirk.

[stretch]

Mavs-Spurs Series 2006 (with Parker on one leg)

Parker - 20.1 ppg, 3.1 apg, 42%
Terry - 19.7 ppg, 3.2 apg, 43%

Parker had absolutely no lift in the Mavs series, but managed 20 ppg (I realize that some games he was horribl and that his shooting percentage sucked, going down to Terry-esque level but that's what happens when you can barely walk).

Parker in the Kings series 22ppg/5apg/51%.
he didnt look like he could barely walk. if someone can barely walk, they would not play. no excuses like that. either way, who was the one making the big shots when they mattered most? Terry? or Parker?

[Kori Ellis]

he didnt look like he could barely walk. if someone can barely walk, they would not play. no excuses like that. either way, who was the one making the big shots when they mattered most? Terry? or Parker?

He was almost scratched in two games of the Mavs series because he couldn't walk the night before. Trainers got him ready enough to get on the court. That's a pretty well known fact.

Go watch the tape of the Kings series and the Mavs series and look at Parker's lift. He had very little lift at all in Mavs series. He got injured twice - end of Kings series, beginning of Mavs series.

I am not giving an excuse for anything. The better team won. I'm explaining why his shooting percentage sucked and went down to Terry's level.

[stretch]

He was almost scratched in two games of the Mavs series because he couldn't walk the night before. Trainers got him ready enough to get on the court. That's a pretty well known fact.
Ok. Still, my question was, who made the big plays when they mattered most? Parker? Or Terry?

[monosylab1k]

Ok. Still, my question was, who made the big plays when they mattered most? Parker? Or Terry?

Terry made tons of big shots, but he also missed a big one at the end of game 5, along with making the mistake of putting his hand into a fist as he tapped Finley's shorts. Oh brother, I don't want a shitload of responses. How about this "made the mistake of dealing a deathblow to Finley's crotch"

[stretch]

I am not giving an excuse for anything. The better team won. I'm explaining why his shooting percentage sucked and went down to Terry's level.

or perhaps you dont want to credit that Harris and the Mavs defended him well. whether he was hurt or not... i also saw that the Mavs did a good job of swarming him when he tried to get in the paint, and that Harris was frustrating him and making good plays. that injury is not the sole reason that he didnt shoot well that series. the Mavs did a better job of keeping him out of the paint, and forcing him to shoot more jumpers, which hes obviously not very consistent at.

[stretch]

Terry made tons of big shots, but he also missed a big one at the end of game 5, along with making the mistake of putting his hand into a fist as he tapped Finley's shorts.
and I dont recall Parker making any big shots, period. it was all Duncan and Ginobili.

[Kori Ellis]

I didn't discredit the Mavs, I'm sure they were part of it. I just know how hurt he was, so Pop told him to shoot 20-25 times a game and keep after it.

His jumpshot gets better and better all the time. We'll see what happens this year.

I certainly hope the Spurs-Mavs series happens. And hopefully one of the Spurs big men will step up and be able to stay on the court. Because of the Spurs have to go small again, Mavs will win for sure.

[stretch]

I didn't discredit the Mavs, I'm sure they were part of it. I just know how hurt he was, so Pop told him to shoot 20-25 times a game and keep after it.

His jumpshot gets better and better all the time. We'll see what happens this year.

I certainly hope the Spurs-Mavs series happens. And hopefully one of the Spurs big men will step up and be able to stay on the court. Because of the Spurs have to go small again, Mavs will win for sure.
Yea, I hope they meet again. It should be another good series, with some great basketball played.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I wasn't aware Kori JHo was in a bit of a slump

I got league pass 2 months ago so I try to watch as many Mavs games as I can if the Spurs game isn't on.


But yeah, like I said back on page 1, if Jho's shot isn't falling at least he contributes in other ways. if parker's scoring isn't there, he doesn't do much else really.

and I agree that small ball in the potential mavs series would pretty much be us raising the white flag

[wildbill2u]

Yea, when you take the next 3, (Barry, Finley, Elson), vs there next 3 (Harris, Stack, Damp) there is no contest
Your forgot Bruce. No wonder.

[mardigan]

Your forgot Bruce. No wonder.
No I didnt forget him, I was talking more about offensively, but I guess your right, I should have included him

[DarrinS]

It's difficult to comare these guys, but I'll give it a shot.


Dirk is a far better perimeter shooter than Tim, but Tim has better low-post moves and is a better defender. Dirks life in the NBA is pretty easy because he's usually guarded by a much smaller defender and he seems to get a free pass on the defensive side.


Jet is a better perimeter shooter than Tony, but Tony is quicker and gets more penetration. Tony's jump shot is improving, but he still doesn't pose a serious 3-point threat, which could really spread the floor.

Manu and Howard, statistically, are very similar. I think Howard averages a lot more minutes/game. I do give an edge to Manu because of slightly better 3pt FG percentage and his sick moves. Howard is more of a good, fundamental basketball player.

[stretch]

Your forgot Bruce. No wonder.
Harris >>>> Barry
Stack >>>> Finley
Damp < Bowen

Mavs still win.

[stretch]

Manu and Howard, statistically, are very similar. I think Howard averages a lot more minutes/game. I do give an edge to Manu because of slightly better 3pt FG percentage and his sick moves. Howard is more of a good, fundamental basketball player.
IMO, Manu is a better scorer and is mentally stronger (mainly due to having much more basketball experience) while Howard is a better all-around player.

[smrattler]

I agree with people saying the Spurs top 3 are pretty even with the Mavs top 3. You could argue the Spurs top 3 are better, but I wouldn't spend much time arguing if someone said the Mavs top 3 are better. Whatever. But take the top 3 out of the picture and you get basically the rest of the Mavs rotational guys are better. 4-8 or 4-9, they are overall better. Or at least those 4-9 "matchup" better against our 4-9 that makes it hard for us to keep up sometimes.

The key in another series (if we are lucky to make it to the WCF) is going to be the matchups we use regarding those other players. Guys like Bowen, Harris, Stack, Elson/Obertp (defensively), DGeorge, Buck, Fin and Barry, etc. Can Horry make an impact or is he done? Will Bonner have a role or not?

TD and Dirk dont matchup against each other. Last year we went with Bowen on Dirk. What happened? Dirk got his averages, better than average probably. Got to the line. But where he can hurt us is with his rebounding. As it is, Bowen cant rebound to save his life, but against a 7 footer? But I think Pop has learned his lesson and sees this was not the way to go. Why?

With Bowen on Dirk, Dirk wasn't gonna get slowed down anyway and now Howard had someone much smaller than him on him and actually became more of a scorer in that series and killed us with timely rebounds. So, I am betting this year Pop goes with Elson/Oberto on Dirk. Maybe even Horry in small stretches or Bonner if he's playing. But basically give him the bigger body. Dirk will probably get his anyway but a bigger body to keep him off the boards. But even better, keep Bowen on Howard which might be the defensive matchup that decides the next series.

This is the way I see it going, if Pop has learned from last year:

Terry - Barry/Manu. Don't put TP on him if at all possible, I think Terry's shown he's too big. I don't understand why Manu couldn't spend more time trying to slow him down last year. Was he too busy with Howard? That was a bad matchup for us. :-(

Harris - TP and Vaughn. Harris is a guy that can actually keep up with him? I think healthy TP will prove that's not quite the case. I hope anyway. But check this out. With Harris and Terry, throw out TP and Manu. With Harris and not Terry, get Vaughn out there! I think he can be a big role player in that series. I don't think Beno gets in. That's too bad, we could use his shooting.

Howard - Bowen. Bowen needs to have one job, Eliminate Howard's impact on the game. Treat him like Kobe, TMac, LeBron... ok, not TMac and LeBron, but VC, Kobe, Marion, etc.

Any lame center - TD. TD averaged what in last years series? Yeah, that was on a bum foot. He looks deadly this year and we might see another vintage performance from him.

Dirk - Elson/Oberto. Yeah, our own lame centers. Sure. But stay big on him.

When they go really small with Dirk at center? TD and him will basically become unstopable. Whichever coach flinches first and can't stomach that will lose. :-)

Other keys? George, Buckner. They are the new dimension this year. Will be interesting how they impact the series if we are lucky enough to see another one.

[mardigan]

^^Damn that was long, top 3 I think is pretty even, both ways, I think Tim and Dirk cancell each other out, Terry and Tony cancel each other out, and Manu and Josh cancel each other out.

[smrattler]

^^ Hehe, sorry about that. I couldn't stop typing.

[smrattler]

Oh, but I don't think Manu has to cancel out Howard IF Bowen slows down Howard and makes his scoring impact low. Then Manu can cancel out the Mavs bench scorer (probably Stack). I like that better.

[DarrinS]

Question: Have the Spurs ever one a championship where someone, other than the big 3, didn't step up with huge 3-pointers?

Answer: No

1999. Jaren Jackson
2003. Steve Kerr (sorry about that, Mavs fans) and Stephen Jackson
2005. Robert Horry

[Dalhoop]

I don't think that the Mavs big three are "On" all the time. Dirk is the most consistant and he is on about 95% of the time. Howard is second, about 75% of the time, but as stated, when his shot isn't falling he is still a good defender and rebounder. Terry is at about 65% being "On", The thing with his is when he is "On" He is REALLY ON, and when he isn't, Harris comes in with almost the same game.

What hurts the Spurs in the lack of back-ups. There is a big difference between Parker and Vaughn, what the Spurs do with Parker on the floor, they cannot with Vaughn. Not true with the Mavs PG's.

The same is true Manu and Barry/Finley. When the line-up changs, the playbook does as well. With Howard and Stack, their games are close to the same (On offense anyway).

Even with the "Big Two" of Duncan and Dirk. Bonner is not the inside force that Duncan is ... In fact, he is close to the opposite (In outside player), the playbook changes with him. With Dirk and Croshere, they both have the outside shot and inside moves. Obviously the talent level drops, but the Mavs can still run the same plays.

With the Mavs, no matter the line-up on the floor, they play the same way. Run the same plays and keep the pressure on. With the Spurs, when they go to the bench for any of the three, the playbook changes.

That is something that I think has been overlooked with the Mavs management through the last few years. They don't just get a player to fill a roster spot, they look for the guy that fits with what they already do at the position. you need only look to Dirks back-up, they have been Croshere, Van Horn and Walker ... all good at both inide and outside games. Howards Position? Stackhouse and Jamison ... Same game.

The Spurs big three are slightly better in the Playoffs (Duncan is a monster, Manu and Parker can vanish completely), But the way that the teams approach the bench and how they play in the system gives the edge to the Mavs.

The Spurs need all three to be "ON" to win, and even then .... Remember in one of the losses last year all three got 30+ points, it could be a struggle. The Mavs only need two of the three to hit to win.

[stretch]

2003. Steve Kerr (sorry about that, Mavs fans) and Stephen Jackson

none taken. Jackson and Kerr kicked our asses that day. It sucked. Really bad. But that's when reality set in... you can't win a title without defense. Hopefully the Suns and their fans learn that one day.

[mavsfan1000]

Top 6 combined for both teams.
1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Ginobili
4. Howard
5. Parker
6. Terry/Harris. They are about the same.

[Bob Lanier]

Stack >>>> Finley
Not sure I'd go that far. Both of them have tended to choke and disappear in the playoffs, but with Stack's greater role, he has a proportionately greater probability of killing your team's chances of winning a game.

[SpursDynasty]

Most people don't want to admit that:

Duncan, Parker, Ginobili > Dirk, Howard, Terry

Although Dallas bench > Spurs bench.

We have a better Big 3, but worse bench, than Dallas.

Do you all really think Howard and Terry are on the level of Parker and Ginobili? You're nuts if you do.

[stretch]

Not sure I'd go that far. Both of them have tended to choke and disappear in the playoffs, but with Stack's greater role, he has a proportionately greater probability of killing your team's chances of winning a game.
He also is actually capable of helping this team win as well. Finley is simply useless, and a far bigger choker than Stackhouse.

[mardigan]

Oh, but I don't think Manu has to cancel out Howard IF Bowen slows down Howard and makes his scoring impact low. Then Manu can cancel out the Mavs bench scorer (probably Stack). I like that better.
Thats very true, if Bowen can slow down one of their big 3, helps out one of ours. Except for the Buckners, Georges, and Harris's that can slow down our guys as well, they have some damn good defenders

[mardigan]

Most people don't want to admit that:

Duncan, Parker, Ginobili > Dirk, Howard, Terry

Although Dallas bench > Spurs bench.

We have a better Big 3, but worse bench, than Dallas.

Do you all really think Howard and Terry are on the level of Parker and Ginobili? You're nuts if you do.
I think they are on the same level, why wouldnt I? I mean, yeah, they are each better at certain things than the others, but they pretty much even out when all is said and done

[SpursDynasty]

I think they are on the same level, why wouldnt I? I mean, yeah, they are each better at certain things than the others, but they pretty much even out when all is said and done

Ok, ask yourselves this question: When it comes to playoff situations and winning those important games:

Would you rather have Parker and Ginobili, or Howard and Terry on your team?

[td4mvp21]

Top 6 combined for both teams.
1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Ginobili
4. Howard
5. Parker
6. Terry/Harris. They are about the same.
Wow I actually agree with that list :lol.

[mardigan]

Ok, ask yourselves this question: When it comes to playoff situations and winning those important games:

Would you rather have Parker and Ginobili, or Howard and Terry on your team?
Im not sure, depends on which duo is on. They both have their ups and downs. Tony gets to the basket better than Terry, Terry is a much better shooter than Tony. Manu has more offensive game than Howard, but Howard is a much better defender and rebounder. It all evens out to me

[mardigan]

Wow I actually agree with that list :lol.
Yea, I pretty much do to , except that Duncan and Dirk are pretty much dead even to me, I wouldnt put one in front on the other

[SpursDynasty]

Wow I actually agree with that list :lol.

Dirk better than Duncan? :lol

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

Dirk made you all do this last June :pctoss

Actually, that was Wade.

[Bob Lanier]

He also is actually capable of helping this team win as well. Finley is simply useless, and a far bigger choker than Stackhouse.
I strenuously disagree with that, and I'll leave it at that.

[monosylab1k]

I strenuously disagree with that, and I'll leave it at that.

And why will you leave it at that? Because you have absolutely no evidence to refute it, that's why.

[Dalhoop]

Ok, ask yourselves this question: When it comes to playoff situations and winning those important games:

Would you rather have Parker and Ginobili, or Howard and Terry on your team?

If I am down by any number of points, I would take the Mavs trio. If I am ahead, I would take the Mavs trio

Looking for the comeback, Terry and Dirks shooting with Howard rebounding will win the day.

Looking to hold the lead, I would really like to have Duncan inside, but his FT shooting could lose the lead for us. In a FT contest, Mavs all the way.

[Bob Lanier]

evidence
Evidence? Nobody is capable of quantifying the game of basketball. This forum, like all sports forums, is for smack talk and commiseration.

If you want simplistic numbers, Stackhouse's career playoff averages are 4.0 points and 3% worse from the field than his regular season averages; he owns a pathetic career playoff FG% of 38.0 (including one year in Detroit in which he shot 32% and did absolutely everything he conceivably could to lose playoff series after playoff series). Finley's are 1.0 points and 2% worse from the field.

Jerry Stackhouse is simply a loser, and unlike Finley he's never had a consistent spot-up jumpshot to fall back on when his experiments in dribbling fail. That's experience, not evidence, and I'm sorry that's all I have to offer.

[td4mvp21]

Dirk better than Duncan? :lol

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

Dirk made you all do this last June :pctoss

Actually, that was Wade.

In the playoffs, when the Spurs play the Mavs, Dirk does more for his team than Duncan, mostly because he has to. Thus, Dirk is better. Duncan often lets Ginobili and Parker take the reins. Overall? I'll still say Duncan is better, Dirk has just been having amazing seasons. Duncan can still do anything better than Dirk except score. Dirk's developed into a real stud, but Duncan came into the league that way.

[stretch]

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

GTFO

[td4mvp21]

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

OMFG :lmao.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think what we all know is that a series like last year's series more frequently comes down to the things you can't really analyze than it does to questions like this. I mean, for crissakes, one could make a very legitmate argument that the difference in the Spurs/Mavs series in 2006 was Keith Van Horn draining 3 huge three pointers in Game 7. If Van Horn doesn't hit those shots -- arguably -- the Spurs 4th quarter comeback sweeps the Mavs away in a 2003-like tidal wave. Nobody that I can recall ever argued that KVH might prove to be a major factor in that series, but he indisputably was.

Teams that win in a big series tend to get at least some meaningful contributions from unexpected sources. I maintain that the Spurs and Mavericks are actually remarkably close from a matchup standpoint. I think it's conceivable that either could win in 5 games and either could win in 7. But I'm certain that someone unexpected will provide some production to make a difference in the ultimate outcome.

Dirk gives the Mavs the better opportunity to determine tempo and matchups. The Spurs, I think, have the best singular player. I think the Spurs also probably have the most clutch player on either roster -- or at least the guy I'd most want with the ball in his hands (from an objective standpoint) if I had to have one play to win. But the Mavs have more guys who can do more things to win games. The Spurs have a lot of one-trick ponies who don't make much of a difference (and can actually hurt the team) if they aren't performing that trick.

I hope the series comes off. Last year's was the best playoff series I've ever witnessed in person.

[mardigan]

Evidence? Nobody is capable of quantifying the game of basketball. This forum, like all sports forums, is for smack talk and commiseration.

If you want simplistic numbers, Stackhouse's career playoff averages are 4.0 points and 3% worse from the field than his regular season averages; he owns a pathetic career playoff FG% of 38.0 (including one year in Detroit in which he shot 32% and did absolutely everything he conceivably could to lose playoff series after playoff series). Finley's are 1.0 points and 2% worse from the field.

Jerry Stackhouse is simply a loser, and unlike Finley he's never had a consistent spot-up jumpshot to fall back on when his experiments in dribbling fail. That's experience, not evidence, and I'm sorry that's all I have to offer.
That was a pretty good exhibit A

[monosylab1k]

Evidence? Nobody is capable of quantifying the game of basketball. This forum, like all sports forums, is for smack talk and commiseration.

If you want simplistic numbers, Stackhouse's career playoff averages are 4.0 points and 3% worse from the field than his regular season averages; he owns a pathetic career playoff FG% of 38.0 (including one year in Detroit in which he shot 32% and did absolutely everything he conceivably could to lose playoff series after playoff series). Finley's are 1.0 points and 2% worse from the field.

Jerry Stackhouse is simply a loser, and unlike Finley he's never had a consistent spot-up jumpshot to fall back on when his experiments in dribbling fail. That's experience, not evidence, and I'm sorry that's all I have to offer.

You speak like somebody who didn't even watch the playoffs last season. Or the season before, for that matter.

[sprrs]

and I dont recall Parker making any big shots, period. it was all Duncan and Ginobili.

It's not so much about Tony not being clutch, it's about the fact that he had just started (and still is) improving as a shooter. Mavs took away his driving lanes and he can't do much. He's been much more consistent this year, so this postseason should be a good indicator of his actual clutchness.

[Bob Lanier]

You speak like somebody who didn't even watch the playoffs last season. Or the season before, for that matter.
Last season Stack shot 40% from the field and 34% from 3 during the playoffs, along with sub-80% free throw shooting. Finley? 48% and 38%, and 90% from the line.

The season before: 38%, 40%, 86% for Stack; 42%, 39%, 89% for Finley.

Neither of them plays any defense or creates anything for their teammates, so I'm taking into consideration their skill as finishers. And as a finisher, whenever the pressure is on, Stack is a guy opposing coaches have to love. That Avery Johnson also loves Stack is an ongoing mystery.

[monosylab1k]

Last season Stack shot 40% from the field and 34% from 3 during the playoffs, along with sub-80% free throw shooting. Finley? 48% and 38%, and 90% from the line.

The season before: 38%, 40%, 86% for Stack; 42%, 39%, 89% for Finley.

Neither of them plays any defense or creates anything for their teammates, so I'm taking into consideration their skill as finishers. And as a finisher, whenever the pressure is on, Stack is a guy opposing coaches have to love. That Avery Johnson also loves Stack is an ongoing mystery.

Again, spoken like a guy who didn't watch the playoffs. There's no doubt Stackhouse has his flaws (especially when he forgets he's a 6th man and thinks he's a star)....but to say that Finley is more clutch and could outplay Stack at this stage of their careers....well that's said by somebody who wants to look at shot percentages to base their beliefs.

[Dalhoop]

It's not so much about Tony not being clutch, it's about the fact that he had just started (and still is) improving as a shooter. Mavs took away his driving lanes and he can't do much. He's been much more consistent this year, so this postseason should be a good indicator of his actual clutchness.

The question was wether Parker was a "clutch" as Terry .... The answer was that Terry hit the shots that Parker didn't ... Now you can make excuses about defense and everything else, but clutch is clutch reguardless of defense.

Your reasoning that he is more clutch because "this postseason should be a good indicator" Means nothing, until it happens ... Or doesn't.

[Bob Lanier]

Again, spoken like a guy who didn't watch the playoffs.
I watched the playoffs. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've watched every NBA playoff game Jerry Stackhouse has ever played, and most of Finley's, as well.

For example, I distinctly remember watching Stack losing Game 1 of the Spurs series for you.

[monosylab1k]

I watched the playoffs. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've watched every NBA playoff game Jerry Stackhouse has ever played, and most of Finley's, as well.

For example, I distinctly remember watching Stack losing Game 2 of the Spurs series for you.

LOL the Mavs won game 2. Game Over. Enjoy your night.

[Dalhoop]

Stack is better the Finley. Many times this year when the Mavs were facing an opposing run, AJ would put in Stackhouse because if there is one thing that he WILL DO, its get to the rim for a hard shot AND FOUL. He not afread of contact in any way, shape, or form.

He has broken more opposing runs then any other Mav. Can you say that about Finley? This by the way is on top of everything else that he does.

[FromWayDowntown]

LOL the Mavs won game 2. Game Over. Enjoy your night.

He did make a horrendous decision at the end of Game 1.

[monosylab1k]

He did make a horrendous decision at the end of Game 1.

No doubt about that....but that guy DISTINCTLY remembered Stackhouse fucking up to lose game TWO.

That is, before he decided to fix his mistake :lol

[Dalhoop]

He did make a horrendous decision at the end of Game 1. So I guess that puts him on the same level as Manu? Everyone has a bad moment, Stack has more good then bad, he hasn't vanished for weeks at a time like Finley has this year

[mardigan]

Well I think its pretty obvious that Stack definately has more in the tank than Fin, but I still trust Fin will make a couple of big shots in the playoffs for us. But Stack is definately the better player at this point of his career

[sprrs]

The question was wether Parker was a "clutch" as Terry .... The answer was that Terry hit the shots that Parker didn't ... Now you can make excuses about defense and everything else, but clutch is clutch reguardless of defense.

Your reasoning that he is more clutch because "this postseason should be a good indicator" Means nothing, until it happens ... Or doesn't.


Mavs fan.....living in the past? WTF?

[stretch]

It's not so much about Tony not being clutch, it's about the fact that he had just started (and still is) improving as a shooter. Mavs took away his driving lanes and he can't do much. He's been much more consistent this year, so this postseason should be a good indicator of his actual clutchness.
what the fuck does that have to do with anything? if he cant shoot, then thats his problem. thats the stupidest excuse ive ever fucking heard. its as stupid as saying something like, Shaq was great because he would have been greater if he knew how to shoot. makes no sense whatsoever.

[gilmor]

Dirk better than Duncan? :lol

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

Dirk made you all do this last June :pctoss

Actually, that was Wade.

U are so full of shit.. why don't u just shut the fuck up!

Dirk >>> Bonner

[itzsoweezee]

mavs don't have a "big 3." dirk and josh howard. that's it. the rest alright, but none are at the level of manu or tony.

[mardigan]

mavs don't have a "big 3." dirk and josh howard. that's it. the rest alright, but none are at the level of manu or tony.
Jason Terry averages just as many points as Manu, so how could manu be in a big 3 but not Terry?

[itzsoweezee]

Jason Terry averages just as many points as Manu, so how could manu be in a big 3 but not Terry?

1) terry plays 8 more minutes a game
2) manu is a much much bigger threat to the opposing team. terry would never get the kind of attention manu gets
3) manu's impact and brilliance on any game transcends any stats.
4) manu's been an all-star, chosen by the coaches. terry hasn't

[mardigan]

The only argument that holds weight is the minutes, the rest is just your opinion, except the all star, which is still just opinion. I think Terry can be just as dangerous as Manu, especially at the end of the game

[sprrs]

what the fuck does that have to do with anything? if he cant shoot, then thats his problem. thats the stupidest excuse ive ever fucking heard. its as stupid as saying something like, Shaq was great because he would have been greater if he knew how to shoot. makes no sense whatsoever.

When you focus your entire defense on stopping a point guard who's only strength is driving into the lane, saying he dissapears because he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a game finisher is ridiculous.

And to bring my argument down to your level: fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

[itzsoweezee]

The only argument that holds weight is the minutes, the rest is just your opinion, except the all star, which is still just opinion. I think Terry can be just as dangerous as Manu, especially at the end of the game

at the very least, terry isn't as good as manu for two reasons. of course, in reality, manu is better than terry for more than just two reasons. but at least we've established now that terry isn't on manu's level.

[mardigan]

at the very least, terry isn't as good as manu for two reasons. of course, in reality, manu is better than terry for more than just two reasons. but at least we've established now that terry isn't on manu's level.
I dont think that he is as good as Manu, Im a Spurs fan for shits sake, Im just saying that Terry is a huge part of the mavs team, and to say that he isnt one of their big three doesnt make a lot of sense to me

[itzsoweezee]

I dont think that he is as good as Manu, Im a Spurs fan for shits sake, Im just saying that Terry is a huge part of the mavs team, and to say that he isnt one of their big three doesnt make a lot of sense to me

the reason i say that is, if the mavs' big 3 are more consistent as a unit on offense, its more b/c they've got a big 2 and a good role player. it's a lot harder for three all-star caliber scorers to play well together on offense.

[Udrihlooms]

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.


This post truly deserves an outstanding award. :lmao

What's next? Udrih better than Harris?

So are you starting that "Bonner for MVP" chant?

[stretch]

When you focus your entire defense on stopping a point guard who's only strength is driving into the lane, saying he dissapears because he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a game finisher is ridiculous.

And to bring my argument down to your level: fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
i dont think that was the mavs entire defensive focus. all i said, and the fact is, is that Terry made big plays, while Parker did not.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

[SpursDynasty]

I NEVER SAID MATT BONNER WAS BETTER THAN DIRK.

I said he has more moves than just a fadeaway jump shot, which doesn't say a lot. Most players do more than just shoot. Having more moves doesn't make a player better. I just said that to emphasize that Dirk is boring to watch, except when he's losing.

[Udrihlooms]

I NEVER SAID MATT BONNER WAS BETTER THAN DIRK.

I said he has more moves than just a fadeaway jump shot, which doesn't say a lot. Most players do more than just shoot. Having more moves doesn't make a player better. I just said that to emphasize that Dirk is boring to watch, except when he's losing.


ah ok... but you know what? call me stupid, but i've always found Tim duncan more interesting to watch than any of Vince Carter's team. Carter has probably a million times more move than Tim's.

Be objective. If you really want an interesting team, root for Phoenix. Spurs may be too boring for most people. Actually Tim has fewer moves than Dirk, but that doesn't make Tim really boring.

[z0sa]

Actually Tim has fewer moves than Dirk

:lol

[mardigan]

Actually Tim has fewer moves than Dirk, but that doesn't make Tim really boring.
God that was dumb

[phyzik]

ah ok... but you know what? call me stupid, but i've always found Tim duncan more interesting to watch than any of Vince Carter's team. Carter has probably a million times more move than Tim's.

Be objective. If you really want an interesting team, root for Phoenix. Spurs may be too boring for most people. Actually Tim has fewer moves than Dirk, but that doesn't make Tim really boring.

I agree Dirk is damn good and does more then people credit him for, but Tim duncan having fewer moves than him? Sorry, you cant play post as good as Tim Duncan with fewer moves than Dirk... it just doesn't work.


*Edit*

WTF is up today Mardigan? I swear, all day long it seems we have been posting in the same threads saying just about the exact same fucking thing! your freaking me out, STOP IT! :lol

[mardigan]

I agree Dirk is damn good and does more then people credit him for, but Tim duncan having fewer moves than him? Sorry, you cant play post as good as Tim Duncan with fewer moves than Dirk... it just doesn't work.


*Edit*

WTF is up today Mardigan? I swear, all day long it seems we have been posting in the same threads saying just about the exact same fucking thing! your freaking me out, STOP IT! :lol
Ive got mental powers bro, I wont go any further into it

[Clutch20]

Well, give me boring then, my main man is Tim Duncan. He and Dirk lead the pack, are led by boring coaches mirroring same boring plays and boring defensive schemes, which can lead to hohum boring but healthy winning percentages, which can make for a lot of boring arguments whenever it gets too boring around here.
But do we ever yawn our way through the playoffs?
Helno.
Give me boring, I prefer it over endless, masturbative slamdunks and nano-seconds left lobs.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

i'm glad to see this thread got some good responses

[mardigan]

i'm glad to see this thread got some good responses
Well thats what good topics will do for ya

[Udrihlooms]

I agree Dirk is damn good and does more then people credit him for, but Tim duncan having fewer moves than him? Sorry, you cant play post as good as Tim Duncan with fewer moves than Dirk... it just doesn't work.


ok, i'm being stupid, i have to take that back. those fundamental footwork moves are actually several moves put together. :lol

anyway, i hope getting this correctly now: i think dirk is even more flashy than Tim, but flashiness doesn't automatically translate to greatness. Again Carter should be the best example.

[sprrs]

i dont think that was the mavs entire defensive focus. all i said, and the fact is, is that Terry made big plays, while Parker did not.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

The argument was that Tony has never been considered a clutch player, I was just stating why. He did suck pretty badly in the WCSF, but in previous years teams focused on shutting him down completely. His shot is much improved this year, and as such, this post season is where we see if he dissapeared because of his mental toughness, or because he didn't have a jump shot.

[SpursDynasty]

You want to talk about clutch?

How about those Dallas Mavericks destroying the defending champion Spurs, on their homecourt, in a game 7?

I never was a believer until that game when Dirk single handley destroyed San Antonio in dedication for his hero, David Hasselhoff.

I dare anyone of you to find a more touching and inspiring performance than that one.

Fast forward to NBA Finals 2006, and suddenly a second round victory doesn't mean much, no matter how much Dallas fans and NBA media try to tell us all that it does.

And as far as a more touching and inspiring performance, I'd pick Alonzo Mourning's 5 blocks in Game 6 of the Finals. :clap

[spursreport]

The argument was that Tony has never been considered a clutch player, I was just stating why. He did suck pretty badly in the WCSF, but in previous years teams focused on shutting him down completely. His shot is much improved this year, and as such, this post season is where we see if he dissapeared because of his mental toughness, or because he didn't have a jump shot.

Dont bother trying to argue with Stretch. He is a hypocritical douche bag who always has to be right. :rolleyes :rolleyes You are just wasting your time trying to reason with him.

[Dalhoop]

The argument was that Tony has never been considered a clutch player, I was just stating why. He did suck pretty badly in the WCSF, but in previous years teams focused on shutting him down completely. His shot is much improved this year, and as such, this post season is where we see if he dissapeared because of his mental toughness, or because he didn't have a jump shot.

Alright, I get it. Your saying that he isn't clutch right now, but with his improved play, this could change in this years playoffs .... I can see that, a sort of "Hope springs eternal" sort of thing.

[stretch]

Dont bother trying to argue with Stretch. He is a hypocritical douche bag who always has to be right. :rolleyes :rolleyes You are just wasting your time trying to reason with him.
if your spursreport site is so great, when why are you posting here no one likes you here. all you do is post useless garbage. i hope someone bans your stupid ass. i dont think you have ever once posted something that actually contributed to the board.

[stretch]

The argument was that Tony has never been considered a clutch player, I was just stating why. He did suck pretty badly in the WCSF, but in previous years teams focused on shutting him down completely. His shot is much improved this year, and as such, this post season is where we see if he dissapeared because of his mental toughness, or because he didn't have a jump shot.
yea. we will see. i dont think teams whole defensive focus was to ever shut him down completely, and it certainly wasn't the Mavericks focus last season. but you cannot make excuses for him dissapearring in the past is what im saying. if he didnt have a jumper back then, he should have found other ways to contribute. for a while, Jordan wasnt a great outside shooter, but he always found ways to make plays. Magic was never a great outside shooter, but again, he too found ways to make plays. thats what great players do. find ways to make plays, despite limitations. they have to use what they have to make plays. shaq had nothing but size and strength, and we see it netted him 3 rings. granted, Parker is no where near the level of any of them, and never will even dream about being remotely close, but if hes truly a clutch player, he would find a way to make plays. thats what clutch players do. they find ways to make plays when they matter most.

[mathbzh]

Are you really comparing Tony to Jordan Magic and Shaq??? You are really the biggest Tony fan here :p:

[mathbzh]

Well, give me boring then, my main man is Tim Duncan. He and Dirk lead the pack, are led by boring coaches mirroring same boring plays and boring defensive schemes, which can lead to hohum boring but healthy winning percentages, which can make for a lot of boring arguments whenever it gets too boring around here.
But do we ever yawn our way through the playoffs?
Helno.
Give me boring, I prefer it over endless, masturbative slamdunks and nano-seconds left lobs.

I believed defense wins championship... actually it is boringness
I learned one thing today :reading :lol

[phyzik]

You want to talk about clutch?

How about those Dallas Mavericks destroying the defending champion Spurs, on their homecourt, in a game 7?

I never was a believer until that game when Dirk single handley destroyed San Antonio in dedication for his hero, David Hasselhoff.

I wouldnt call blowing a lead only to have the game go into overtime because of a foul destroying the opponent...



I dare anyone of you to find a more touching and inspiring performance than that one.

Memorial Day Miracle...

Robert Horry rising from the ashes like a vengefull Phoenix in game 5...

and the mother of all that totally blows away Dirks "Masterfull" performance???

David Robinson winning a championship and then retiring.

[smrattler]

Fast forward to NBA Finals 2006, and suddenly a second round victory doesn't mean much, no matter how much Dallas fans and NBA media try to tell us all that it does.

No response to this? :lol

[mabber]

I think what we all know is that a series like last year's series more frequently comes down to the things you can't really analyze than it does to questions like this. I mean, for crissakes, one could make a very legitmate argument that the difference in the Spurs/Mavs series in 2006 was Keith Van Horn draining 3 huge three pointers in Game 7. If Van Horn doesn't hit those shots -- arguably -- the Spurs 4th quarter comeback sweeps the Mavs away in a 2003-like tidal wave. Nobody that I can recall ever argued that KVH might prove to be a major factor in that series, but he indisputably was.

Teams that win in a big series tend to get at least some meaningful contributions from unexpected sources. I maintain that the Spurs and Mavericks are actually remarkably close from a matchup standpoint. I think it's conceivable that either could win in 5 games and either could win in 7. But I'm certain that someone unexpected will provide some production to make a difference in the ultimate outcome.

Dirk gives the Mavs the better opportunity to determine tempo and matchups. The Spurs, I think, have the best singular player. I think the Spurs also probably have the most clutch player on either roster -- or at least the guy I'd most want with the ball in his hands (from an objective standpoint) if I had to have one play to win. But the Mavs have more guys who can do more things to win games. The Spurs have a lot of one-trick ponies who don't make much of a difference (and can actually hurt the team) if they aren't performing that trick.

I hope the series comes off. Last year's was the best playoff series I've ever witnessed in person.

I agree with all of this. Excellent way of comparing Dirk & Duncan as well.

[Amarelooms]

I NEVER SAID MATT BONNER WAS BETTER THAN DIRK.

I said he has more moves than just a fadeaway jump shot, which doesn't say a lot. Most players do more than just shoot. Having more moves doesn't make a player better. I just said that to emphasize that Dirk is boring to watch, except when he's losing.

No one is more boring to watch than Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Get the fuck outta here homer :elephant

[SpursDynasty]

No one is more boring to watch than Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Get the fuck outta here homer :elephant

Tim Duncan isn't the most exciting player, but Dirk is still more predictable than Duncan. We know that he'll probably shoot a fadeaway jumper, and miss the most crucial free throws.

The Mavs are boring players with no personalities.

[Amarelooms]

Tim Duncan isn't the most exciting player, but Dirk is still more predictable than Duncan. We know that he'll probably shoot a fadeaway jumper, and miss the most crucial free throws.

The Mavs are boring players with no personalities.

HAHHAHA...see you in thw WCF

[SpursDynasty]

HAHHAHA...see you in thw WCF

That's even if Dallas has enough left after Golden State in the first round and Utah in the second round. Dallas is 1-3 vs those teams this year.

[mabber]

Tim Duncan isn't the most exciting player, but Dirk is still more predictable than Duncan. We know that he'll probably shoot a fadeaway jumper, and miss the most crucial free throws.

The Mavs are boring players with no personalities.

Dirk shoots a straight away jumper (w/o fading) about 40% of the time, a fade away (back to basket) jumper about 40% of the time and drives to the hoop the other 20% of the time.

And, yes, Dirk may miss a crucial free throw every once in awhile but he still shoots over 80% from the line (compared to his regular 90%) in crucial situations. The media only shows his missed free throws though. I bet you'd take Dirk's free throw % (even when he's choking at 80%) over Duncan's every day of the week.

[mabber]

That's even if Dallas has enough left after Golden State in the first round and Utah in the second round. Dallas is 1-3 vs those teams this year.

Not that it really matters who they play in those rounds but I'm predicting they play the Clippers in 1st round and Rockets in 2nd round. I still haven't decided who I think will win between the Spurs & Suns in 2nd round but I'm leaning toward the Spurs.

[Supergirl]

It's really too hard to compare the players straight up against one another - they play different styles. Spurs win when they are able to slow the pace down and play good transition D, keep the other team from getting into a rhythem and from getting easy buckets. Mavs win when the Spurs aren't hitting shots, aren't playing good D, and are allowed to find their groove.

1. Duncan is the best player in the NBA, so better than anyone on the Mavs.
2. Dirk is in the top 3 best players in the NBA, so he's got to be #2.
3. Manu is the consummate playoff performer, plays great D, and is our second best playmaker.
4. Howard is the Mavs best defender, and their 2nd best player. So far we're coming up pretty even.
5. Parker is an underrated defender, faster than virtually anyone in the NBA, and a very good playmaker.
6. Terry is almost as good as Parker, but the verdict is still not out on his playoff performances, so Parker gets the nod above him. Still, we're basically even.
7. Devin Harris is the X-factor for the Mavs - we have to have a guy who can keep him out of his rhythem. And we do. We just have to show up.
8. Stackhouse/Finley - both guys capable of pouring in 20 pts a night, but may or may not show up on any given night, esp when the pressure is on.
9. Bowen - not hear because of his O, obviously, but he has to rank in at least this high because he is so important - we have the power to shut down at least one player on any given night. The Mavs do not.
10. Elson/Dampier - on their good nights, they're pretty comparable, though they have different skillsets and styles, and both take nights off.
11. Horry/George - both capable of hitting big shots.

It's looking pretty even to me. I think it'll be a tough series, if the teams meet. I'd rather the Suns knock off the Mavs because the Suns would be an easier (though not EASY) match up for the Spurs.

[upTD]

Top 6 combined for both teams.
1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Ginobili
4. Howard
5. Parker
6. Terry/Harris. They are about the same.
1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Howard
4. Parker
5. Ginobili
6. Terry/Harris. They are about the same.

i

[Amarelooms]

It's really too hard to compare the players straight up against one another - they play different styles. Spurs win when they are able to slow the pace down and play good transition D, keep the other team from getting into a rhythem and from getting easy buckets. Mavs win when the Spurs aren't hitting shots, aren't playing good D, and are allowed to find their groove.

1. Duncan is the best player in the NBA, so better than anyone on the Mavs.
2. Dirk is in the top 3 best players in the NBA, so he's got to be #2.
3. Manu is the consummate playoff performer, plays great D, and is our second best playmaker.
4. Howard is the Mavs best defender, and their 2nd best player. So far we're coming up pretty even.
5. Parker is an underrated defender, faster than virtually anyone in the NBA, and a very good playmaker.
6. Terry is almost as good as Parker, but the verdict is still not out on his playoff performances, so Parker gets the nod above him. Still, we're basically even.
7. Devin Harris is the X-factor for the Mavs - we have to have a guy who can keep him out of his rhythem. And we do. We just have to show up.
8. Stackhouse/Finley - both guys capable of pouring in 20 pts a night, but may or may not show up on any given night, esp when the pressure is on.
9. Bowen - not hear because of his O, obviously, but he has to rank in at least this high because he is so important - we have the power to shut down at least one player on any given night. The Mavs do not.
10. Elson/Dampier - on their good nights, they're pretty comparable, though they have different skillsets and styles, and both take nights off.
11. Horry/George - both capable of hitting big shots.

It's looking pretty even to me. I think it'll be a tough series, if the teams meet. I'd rather the Suns knock off the Mavs because the Suns would be an easier (though not EASY) match up for the Spurs.

Ummm if the Suns knock off the Mavs then it means the Spurs are already out lol. Gonna be Mavs vs Spurs/Suns winner in the WCF :elephant

[mardigan]

1. Duncan is the best player in the NBA, so better than anyone on the Mavs.

It's looking pretty even to me. I think it'll be a tough series, if the teams meet. I'd rather the Suns knock off the Mavs because the Suns would be an easier (though not EASY) match up for the Spurs.

I dont think Duncan is the best player in the league, definately top 5 though. And you realize that we are going to play the Suns in the 2nd round, so you last statment doesnt make any sense

[mabber]

It's really too hard to compare the players straight up against one another - they play different styles. Spurs win when they are able to slow the pace down and play good transition D, keep the other team from getting into a rhythem and from getting easy buckets. Mavs win when the Spurs aren't hitting shots, aren't playing good D, and are allowed to find their groove.

1. Duncan is the best player in the NBA, so better than anyone on the Mavs.
2. Dirk is in the top 3 best players in the NBA, so he's got to be #2.
3. Manu is the consummate playoff performer, plays great D, and is our second best playmaker.
4. Howard is the Mavs best defender, and their 2nd best player. So far we're coming up pretty even.
5. Parker is an underrated defender, faster than virtually anyone in the NBA, and a very good playmaker.
6. Terry is almost as good as Parker, but the verdict is still not out on his playoff performances, so Parker gets the nod above him. Still, we're basically even.
7. Devin Harris is the X-factor for the Mavs - we have to have a guy who can keep him out of his rhythem. And we do. We just have to show up.
8. Stackhouse/Finley - both guys capable of pouring in 20 pts a night, but may or may not show up on any given night, esp when the pressure is on.
9. Bowen - not hear because of his O, obviously, but he has to rank in at least this high because he is so important - we have the power to shut down at least one player on any given night. The Mavs do not.
10. Elson/Dampier - on their good nights, they're pretty comparable, though they have different skillsets and styles, and both take nights off.
11. Horry/George - both capable of hitting big shots.

It's looking pretty even to me. I think it'll be a tough series, if the teams meet. I'd rather the Suns knock off the Mavs because the Suns would be an easier (though not EASY) match up for the Spurs.

That's a decent breakdown although I don't think Duncan is the best player in NBA (but that's not important here). Also, I would take Stack over Finley at this stage of their careers.

Mavs won't play either the Suns or Spurs until the WCF's so if the Suns beat Dallas, the Spurs would already be home fishing.

[FromWayDowntown]

I dont think Duncan is the best player in the league, definately top 5 though.

I would generally agree with that, but would add this caveat:

I do think Duncan is the one player who can make the biggest difference on both ends of the court. Of the players in the league who can truly be dominant and difference-making on the defensive end for long stretches of playoff games, he's the only one (I think) who can be just as dominant and difference-making on the offensive end as well in that setting. I don't think that necessarily makes him the best player in the league, but it certainly means that he's a guy who can make a huge difference for his team at playoff time.

[TDMVPDPOY]

td/gino/tp = multiple rings between them

dirk/terry/howard = zero

damn i wish howard was on the spurs though, would solve the SF position....

[mabber]

td/gino/tp = multiple rings between them

dirk/terry/howard = zero

damn i wish howard was on the spurs though, would solve the SF position....

Doesn't Terry's national championship count for something :lol :rolleyes

[FromWayDowntown]

Doesn't Terry's national championship count for something :lol :rolleyes

About as much as the gold medals that Ginobili and Oberto have, I think.

Of course, as Mavs fans have pointed out with stunning regularity, nobody checks fingers for championship rings or asks to see MVP trophies in the 4th quarters of playoff games.

[TonyParkerSux]

About as much as the gold medals that Ginobili and Oberto have, I think.

Of course, as Mavs fans have pointed out with stunning regularity, nobody checks fingers for championship rings or asks to see MVP trophies in the 4th quarters of playoff games.

good point. as far as I am aware, the games are still decided by actually playing it out on the court. Reputations and past accomplishments won't get that defender out of anyon's face with 1 min left and down by two.....

[LongBall]

The number of rings doesn't matter for anything. The only thing that matters is that Dallas has the best players with the better legs who will win easily in the playoffs. No question.

[SpursDynasty]

Talking terms of who has been the best player this decade, it is:

Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.

More achievements and contributions for their teams since the year 2000 than any other players.

The 3 best overall players this decade.

Best player right now who does the most for his team, not just individual stats: Steve Nash.

[TonyParkerSux]

Talking terms of who has been the best player this decade, it is:

Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.

More achievements and contributions for their teams since the year 2000 than any other players.

The 3 best overall players this decade.

Best player right now who does the most for his team, not just individual stats: Steve Nash.

just an honest ? here.... If Nash/Suns continues to get tossed in the WC playoffs and never get a ring, does that diminish your opinion of whathe has done with Phoenix? I would probably say that it does not. Nash has done wonderful things with/for that team, but their style of play and lack of depth will never win them a ring...

[spursreport]

if your spursreport site is so great, when why are you posting here no one likes you here. all you do is post useless garbage. i hope someone bans your stupid ass. i dont think you have ever once posted something that actually contributed to the board.

Since you post shit and then contradict yourself, that can count as posts that is also useless garbage. It is a shame you cant get banned. Hypocritcal bullshit contributes nothing to the board either.

[1Parker1]

I don't think the Mavs "big 3" are all on 90% of the time. Howard seems to be the most inconsistent, and the most frustrating about him is he's great in the 1st quarter and not great in the 4th for some reason...

Stackhouse is really part of the "big 4" IMO...


That's very true. I was watching the Mavs vs Cavs game and they had the most interesting stat of all:

Josh Howard only averages about 3 Points in the 4th quarter of games this season. That's incredible considering how many points he averages overall. :wow

And Stackhouse is the main killer. He's the ultimate 6th man, instant offense off the bench. Whenever the Mavs start off slow or sluggish all Avery has to do is insert Stackhouse and he scores and the rest of the Mavs catch up.

[1Parker1]

I think that almost every NBA coach would pick the Spurs Big 3 over the Mavs Big 3. Spurs have proven players who have shown they can each show up in the playoffs and in the clutch when it matters most at different points in their careers. Mavs big 3 still has yet to prove this. Regular season stat comparisons don't matter. Also Tim Duncan alone gives the Spurs Big Three an edge.

That being said, as everyone else mentioned, it's the rest of the Mavs team that is >>>>Spurs team, giving the Mavs the edge in a series.

[8-------]

I think that almost every NBA coach would pick the Spurs Big 3 over the Mavs Big 3. Spurs have proven players who have shown they can each show up in the playoffs and in the clutch when it matters most at different points in their careers. Mavs big 3 still has yet to prove this. Regular season stat comparisons don't matter.

That being said, as everyone else mentioned, it's the rest of the Mavs team that is >>>>Spurs team, giving the Mavs the edge in a series.
That's bs. The Mavs is better, but I'd take Kobe and a bunch of guys from the Y over either. Your crazy

[ShoogarBear]

That's bs. The Mavs is better, but I'd take Kobe and a bunch of guys from the Y over either. Your crazyWell then, you should be very happy.

[SpursDynasty]

It's just like what I said:

In the NBA Finals, would you want Duncan, Ginobili, Parker....or Dirk, Terry, and Howard? One group is 2-0 in the Finals (dethroning the NBA champions themselves on the way to both championships), the other is 0-1 in the Finals.

Spurs Big 3 > Mavs Big 3
But Mavs bench > Spurs bench

[mavsfan1000]

The mavs top 4>spurs big 4 though. There's a big dropoff from the spurs 3rd best player and 4th. Harris and Terry are about the same. I'll give you the spurs top 3 are slightly better than the mavs.

[mabber]

About as much as the gold medals that Ginobili and Oberto have, I think.

Of course, as Mavs fans have pointed out with stunning regularity, nobody checks fingers for championship rings or asks to see MVP trophies in the 4th quarters of playoff games.

I know, I was just kidding.

[1Parker1]

The mavs top 4>spurs big 4 though. There's a big dropoff from the spurs 3rd best player and 4th. Harris and Terry are about the same. I'll give you the spurs top 3 are slightly better than the mavs.

This from someone who proclaimed Dirk>>>>>>>Kobe.


:lol

[mabber]

just an honest ? here.... If Nash/Suns continues to get tossed in the WC playoffs and never get a ring, does that diminish your opinion of whathe has done with Phoenix? I would probably say that it does not. Nash has done wonderful things with/for that team, but their style of play and lack of depth will never win them a ring...

It wouldn't diminish my opinion of Nash. I, like a lot of people, think it's their style (and coach) that holds them back. At the same time, D'Antoni (just like Nellie) truely believes that you can win that way and there's a first time for everything. I would never say that there's no way the Suns can win the title as they have as much or more talent than everyone else. I just wouldn't bet on them.

[mabber]

I think that almost every NBA coach would pick the Spurs Big 3 over the Mavs Big 3. Spurs have proven players who have shown they can each show up in the playoffs and in the clutch when it matters most at different points in their careers. Mavs big 3 still has yet to prove this. Regular season stat comparisons don't matter. Also Tim Duncan alone gives the Spurs Big Three an edge.

That being said, as everyone else mentioned, it's the rest of the Mavs team that is >>>>Spurs team, giving the Mavs the edge in a series.

I think the big 3 of each are fairly equal but until the Mavs win a title with their big 3 then you have to take Duncan/Manu/Parker. What would be fun to see is a 3 on 3 game between them. Dirk & Duncan would score a lot that's for sure as neither can guard each other.

[mabber]

That's very true. I was watching the Mavs vs Cavs game and they had the most interesting stat of all:

Josh Howard only averages about 3 Points in the 4th quarter of games this season. That's incredible considering how many points he averages overall. :wow

And Stackhouse is the main killer. He's the ultimate 6th man, instant offense off the bench. Whenever the Mavs start off slow or sluggish all Avery has to do is insert Stackhouse and he scores and the rest of the Mavs catch up.

Avery never calls plays for Josh in the 4th quarter for some reason. In tight games, Avery calls the pick 'n roll with Dirk & JET 90% of the time. I was just thinking the other night that maybe Avery should call a few plays for Josh late in games just to show the other teams something different.

[FromWayDowntown]

I know, I was just kidding.

I know you were.

There isn't always a emoticon to express that understanding.

[mavsfan1000]

This from someone who proclaimed Dirk>>>>>>>Kobe.


:lol
And if we are talking about who's had the better year than I'm right. Having a dominating big man is more important than a scoring guard.

[FromWayDowntown]

And if we are talking about who's had the better year than I'm right. Having a dominating big man is more important than a scoring guard.

Dirk doesn't always play the game like a big man, and rarely plays like a dominating big man (like Shaq or Duncan); he tends to play much more like a scoring guard, really. I'll give him that he's become a much better rebounder of late, and he is willing to go down on the block and try to defend bigs, but he's still not a defensive stopper of any sort and I don't think he'll ever be the sort of player who disrupts defenses by commanding double teams on the block.

Dirk is tall, but he's far from the sort of dominating big man who is prototypically the cornerstone of a contending franchise. That's not saying he isn't good, by the way. I still think that Dirk's greatness comes from the fact that he's unique, which makes him hideously difficult to defend and allows him plenty of opportunities to excel.

[mabber]

Dirk doesn't always play the game like a big man, and rarely plays like a dominating big man (like Shaq or Duncan); he tends to play much more like a scoring guard, really. I'll give him that he's become a much better rebounder of late, and he is willing to go down on the block and try to defend bigs, but he's still not a defensive stopper of any sort and I don't think he'll ever be the sort of player who disrupts defenses by commanding double teams on the block.

Dirk is tall, but he's far from the sort of dominating big man who is prototypically the cornerstone of a contending franchise. That's not saying he isn't good, by the way. I still think that Dirk's greatness comes from the fact that he's unique, which makes him hideously difficult to defend and allows him plenty of opportunities to excel.

But he's got the step aside and slap the ball out of your hands move down pat :lol Karl Malone taught him well.

[Man of Steel]

The guys are chokers (cough Dirk).

Most famous trait: Getting all tense during clutch time.

Other similar traits: Kicking basketballs and helpless bikes in the way of their pathetic players guilty of the most massive meltdown in the history of sports.

The closest the Mavs will get to a ring: When they watch Tim, Tony Parker, Manu and MICHAEL FINLEY all holding up the trophy.

Oh--by the way--

Funniest thing Mark Cuban owns: A trophy case

[wildbill2u]

When the NBA championship is won by playing three on three, this thread will make some sense. Otherwise this is bullshit!

[Clutch20]

I believed defense wins championship... actually it is boringness
I learned one thing today :reading :lol
It's a sound-bite world we live in now. Reality dictates that the game be fast and furious because attention spans are getting really short.

Know anyone who's been to a museum lately? Paintings take a long time to make, stroke by stroke and look at the end result; masterpieces. They take quite a while to be created. Sound defensive strategies take a long time to be created also; they can help you win not only your battles, but the big wars also.

Your average fan will not want to sit through a game to take pride in noticing all the little things their team does to make points because that's potentially boring. The average fan wants a good solid lead as fast as possible and then an all out attempt by their team to keep that lead, as well as increase it.

But that's the state of the game today and those that do appreciate the nuances affectioning outcomes of games, like you and me, can take solace in the fact that, deep down, announcers and their ilk that are influential in the sports media really do not always agree with what comes out of their mouths as gospel, and off the record they do admit to feeling otherwise.

[itzsoweezee]

Talking terms of who has been the best player this decade, it is:

Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.



nope, that list is only down to duncan and shaq. until kobe get's a finals mvp, he's not in the picture.

[mardigan]

nope, that list is only down to duncan and shaq. until kobe get's a finals mvp, he's not in the picture.
Thats retarded, just because Kobe played with Shaq who averaged at least 33 points in all 3 finals means that Kobe cant be in the discussion? Give me a break

[itzsoweezee]

Thats retarded, just because Kobe played with Shaq who averaged at least 33 points in all 3 finals means that Kobe cant be in the discussion? Give me a break

he can't be in the discussion b/c he's never led a team anywhere. stats are great, but he'd have nothing to show for them if he hadn't been shaq's sidekick.

[LEONARD]

I mean I know Dirk makes his jump shots, but please. Matt Bonner has more basketball moves than Dirk.

*adds to list of SpursDynasty / JeffDrums22 gems*

:lol :lol :lol


That's even if Dallas has enough left after Golden State in the first round and Utah in the second round. Dallas is 1-3 vs those teams this year.

Is GS still "officially" the 8th seed?? :lol :lol :lol

[spursreport]

too bad he dissapears when it matters most. thats the 1 reason why I will take Terry over Parker. Parker is as good or better than Terry in every area except shooting, and clutchness.



:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[TheTruth]

Yea, when you take the next 3, (Barry, Finley, Elson), vs there next 3 (Harris, Stack, Damp) there is no contest
damn, if only we lived with hindsight.

[The Go For 4]

Ok. Still, my question was, who made the big plays when they mattered most? Parker? Or Terry?

Who has rings? Parker or Carlton?

[Cry Havoc]

Spurs players do two things that are never remembered.

They play defense, and they PASS the ball insanely well.

1. Duncan
2. Parker
3. Manu
4. Finley
5. Horry
6. Oberto
----

Every single one of those players had a great playoff run this year. Even if they didn't score consistently (which is the only stat that people remember), they played hard defense and passed the ball insanely well. That's exactly how we beat Utah, who matched up on paper with us pretty well, but they just didn't have the teamwork.

1 through six, the Spurs play better defense and pass the ball as well as or better than the Mavs. It's that simple.

[michaelwcho]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here is a statistical debunking of the belief that Stackhouse is a good player:

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/06/15/myth-and-measurement-after-game-three-of-the-nba-finals/


Basically, sure he has his moments, but taken as a whole, he is a black hole and does not help the team. Flashes of brilliance surrounded by workmanlike suckitude.

[Cry Havoc]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here is a statistical debunking of the belief that Stackhouse is a good player:

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/06/15/myth-and-measurement-after-game-three-of-the-nba-finals/


Basically, sure he has his moments, but taken as a whole, he is a black hole and does not help the team. Flashes of brilliance surrounded by workmanlike suckitude.

And he plays HORRIBLE defense for a guy his size, with his wingspan.

[Leetonidas]

Lay off Stackhouse guys. Of course he's been under a lot of pressure lately. I mean playing basketball and staring in Cavemen on ABC? Talk about a load of work.

[41times]

Unfortunately you need more than 3 players to win a championship. In fact you need more than 6 players contributing to win a championship. Just Ask Phoenix, who's brilliant coach chooses not to give much playing time beyond 6 players.

And yes before you say the Mavs lost too, i realize that. But i am talking about teams that you guys played.

As far as the Spurs top 3 vs. the Mavs top 3.......that for me is a push.

Dirk vs. Duncan.....push
Jho vs. Ginobli.....edge JHo
Harris vs. Parker....edge Parker

The Next 3

Finley vs. Jett.....edge Jett
Horry vs Stack........edge Stack
Oberto vs. Damp.......push

The Spurs vs. the Mavs are just about dead even and it depends upon who plays above their normal game on any given day, that's who wins. That is why it is Always a great game when the 2 meet.

[thousandth]

Unfortunately you need more than 3 players to win a championship. In fact you need more than 6 players contributing to win a championship. Just Ask Phoenix, who's brilliant coach chooses not to give much playing time beyond 6 players.

And yes before you say the Mavs lost too, i realize that. But i am talking about teams that you guys played.

As far as the Spurs top 3 vs. the Mavs top 3.......that for me is a push.

Dirk vs. Duncan.....push
Jho vs. Ginobli.....edge JHo
Harris vs. Parker....edge Parker

The Next 3

Finley vs. Jett.....edge Jett
Horry vs Stack........edge Stack
Oberto vs. Damp.......push

The Spurs vs. the Mavs are just about dead even and it depends upon who plays above their normal game on any given day, that's who wins. That is why it is Always a great game when the 2 meet.

push?? Duncan?? Oberto?? C'mon, bro.
Fabrizzio played very well against Mavs in the games 2-3 and 4 in this regular season. 14-14-6 points 6-10-6 rebounds.
What's Damp's stuff? Ugly.
Duncan is Duncan, don't say a word!!!!!

[Sec24Row7]

Howard vs Ginobili edge Howard?

:lol

[smeagol]

Howard vs Ginobili edge Howard?

:lol
Man, every time I read Sec24Row7, my mind says "Scarecrow"

[Texas_Ranger]

Duncan > Dirk
Manu = Howard
Parker > Harris

Spurs 3 > Mavs 3

[thousandth]

Howard vs Ginobili edge Howard?

:lol

:lol :lol :lol :lol too.

Manu is GREAT.

[twilo73]

Yea, when you take the next 3, (Barry, Finley, Elson), vs there next 3 (Harris, Stack, Damp) there is no contest

That is why the Spurs should concentrate in bringing in Scola and Nocioni... are next three would be these two plus Finley... with Oberto rounding up the top 7 add a quality PG sub, and we have a strong team to three peat next year.

[ArgSpursFan]

may be there is a small edge for the Mavs big 3.I´m saying may be,but The spurs are a better all around and deeper team with a better and more experienced coach.

[Bruno]

It's kinda stupid to compare teams by comparing players by players.
People, who do that, haven't understood the team concept in BB.

Anyway, if Spurs beat Suns in the WCSF, Spurs will face Mavs in the WCF : we will have 7 games to judge which team is the best. :smokin

[Testing]

Unfortunately you need more than 3 players to win a championship. In fact you need more than 6 players contributing to win a championship. Just Ask Phoenix, who's brilliant coach chooses not to give much playing time beyond 6 players.

And yes before you say the Mavs lost too, i realize that. But i am talking about teams that you guys played.

As far as the Spurs top 3 vs. the Mavs top 3.......that for me is a push.

Dirk vs. Duncan.....push
Jho vs. Ginobli.....edge JHo
Harris vs. Parker....edge Parker

The Next 3

Finley vs. Jett.....edge Jett
Horry vs Stack........edge Stack
Oberto vs. Damp.......push

The Spurs vs. the Mavs are just about dead even and it depends upon who plays above their normal game on any given day, that's who wins. That is why it is Always a great game when the 2 meet.


How can you possibly even believe that, no matter how much you love and believe in your team? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

First off, what in your right mind makes you believe that Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitski might be a "push?" Duncan has led his team to 4 championships, I have never ever ever seen him choke away in 2 straight playoff series like Dirk, more so than that Duncan's defense alone changes the whole mentality of his team. Does Dirk do that for Dallas? I think not.

As for Howard and Ginobili being a "push." That too is a joke. I guess it depends on what quarter of the game you are watching and whether its a regular season game or playoff game. Josh Howard averages about 15 ppg in the first half of games and 2.3 ppg in the 4th quarter of games. Ginobili on the flip side is one of the most clutchest players in the 4th quarter of NBA games we have today. You don't believe me? See him play in the 2005 and 2007 NBA Finals as well as numerous other games. That's not even begining to mention the intagibles he brings to the team....his energy, hustle play, and creative offense all change the whole mentality of the Spurs team....Howard rebounds the ball well and plays decent defense, but can you honestly say he has the same positive affect on the Mavs that Ginobili does....and that's coming off the bench.

Comparing individual players one on one as someone mentioned is pretty useless without looking at the whole picture. And the whole picture clearly indicates that except for a few breaks that could have gone either way in 2006, Spurs are clearly the better overall team than the Mavs. They have quality players who know how to show up in big games, they have a coach who defines them, they play defense every night better than anyone else in the league, and their offense is highly underrated. You can't make comparisons to the Mavs especially after the 2 seasons they've had....thats an insult to the Spurs and fellow basketball fans who appreciate good basketball and have knowledge of the game.

[samikeyp]

When the NBA championship is won by playing three on three, this thread will make some sense. Otherwise this is bullshit!

Agreed.

[41times]

How can you possibly even believe that, no matter how much you love and believe in your team? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

First off, what in your right mind makes you believe that Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitski might be a "push?" Duncan has led his team to 4 championships, I have never ever ever seen him choke away in 2 straight playoff series like Dirk, more so than that Duncan's defense alone changes the whole mentality of his team. Does Dirk do that for Dallas? I think not.

As for Howard and Ginobili being a "push." That too is a joke. I guess it depends on what quarter of the game you are watching and whether its a regular season game or playoff game. Josh Howard averages about 15 ppg in the first half of games and 2.3 ppg in the 4th quarter of games. Ginobili on the flip side is one of the most clutchest players in the 4th quarter of NBA games we have today. You don't believe me? See him play in the 2005 and 2007 NBA Finals as well as numerous other games. That's not even begining to mention the intagibles he brings to the team....his energy, hustle play, and creative offense all change the whole mentality of the Spurs team....Howard rebounds the ball well and plays decent defense, but can you honestly say he has the same positive affect on the Mavs that Ginobili does....and that's coming off the bench.

Comparing individual players one on one as someone mentioned is pretty useless without looking at the whole picture. And the whole picture clearly indicates that except for a few breaks that could have gone either way in 2006, Spurs are clearly the better overall team than the Mavs. They have quality players who know how to show up in big games, they have a coach who defines them, they play defense every night better than anyone else in the league, and their offense is highly underrated. You can't make comparisons to the Mavs especially after the 2 seasons they've had....thats an insult to the Spurs and fellow basketball fans who appreciate good basketball and have knowledge of the game.

I guess what makes me believe it is History. Check the records over the last 2 years. These teams and players have played each other 15 times in the last 2 years and i think the Mavs are 9 & 6 over that 15 games. I also think Dirk has absolutely killed you guys during that 2 years. So i really should give him the edge over Duncan but i called it a push.

Feel free to check the stats of those 15 games and prove me wrong. I don't think you can.....

[StumpClassic]

I guess what makes me believe it is History. Check the records over the last 2 years. These teams and players have played each other 15 times in the last 2 years and i think the Mavs are 9 & 6 over that 15 games. I also think Dirk has absolutely killed you guys during that 2 years. So i really should give him the edge over Duncan but i called it a push.

Feel free to check the stats of those 15 games and prove me wrong. I don't think you can.....

I think you're argument is inherently wrong - that's kinda like saying that Big Z killed Duncan this year, so the Cavs had a chance to win against the Spurs in the Playoffs.

Are you really discounting the fact that Duncan has 4 Rings?

[Findog]

I think you're argument is inherently wrong - that's kinda like saying that Big Z killed Duncan this year, so the Cavs had a chance to win against the Spurs in the Playoffs.

Are you really discounting the fact that Duncan has 4 Rings?

Well, I don't speak for the other poster, but yeah, Duncan > Dirk. In terms of what they do to each other's teams head to head, yeah, it's a push.

[StumpClassic]

Well, I don't speak for the other poster, but yeah, Duncan > Dirk. In terms of what they do to each other's teams head to head, yeah, it's a push.


The only way I can see it's a push is if you're referencing their respective performances in Mavs vs. Spurs games, since they rarely guard each other.

Otherwise, if you're calling Duncan vs. Dirk as overall players a push, c'mon, there's no comparison.

[Findog]

The only way I can see it's a push is if you're referencing their respective performances in Mavs vs. Spurs games, since they rarely guard each other.

That's exactly what I'm saying. In terms of all-around game, of course Duncan > Dirk.

[Rummpd]

Winning, Winning and Winning that is all the consistency that is needed - the rest is BS as the league is filled with stat queens who cannot win!

[tmtcsc]

Winning, Winning and Winning that is all the consistency that is needed - the rest is BS as the league is filled with stat queens who cannot win!

Nicely said.

[vanvannen]

Winning, Winning and Winning that is all the consistency that is needed - the rest is BS as the league is filled with stat queens who cannot win!

KG, AI, VC anyone?

And don't give me the "KG never had good teammates" argument. He had Spree and Sam Cassell in their primes, and still could not make it.

[bdictjames]

KG, AI, VC anyone?

And don't give me the "KG never had good teammates" argument. He had Spree and Sam Cassell in their primes, and still could not make it.
At least AI got his team to the Finals. I wont say anything about KG, but VC really doesn't deserve to be paid that much in the Nets.

[Magic_Johnson]

KG, AI, VC anyone?

And don't give me the "KG never had good teammates" argument. He had Spree and Sam Cassell in their primes, and still could not make it.

well, AI went to the finals with nobody (maybe mutumbo )
and the first time he has good teamnates (melo'camby,nene) it's against the spurs
so it's not the same

[41times]

I think you're argument is inherently wrong - that's kinda like saying that Big Z killed Duncan this year, so the Cavs had a chance to win against the Spurs in the Playoffs.

Are you really discounting the fact that Duncan has 4 Rings?

No of course i am not discounting that fact i am ignoring it when it comes to this thread. All of the Spurs have accomplished more than the Mavs players. That is a given right?

This thread as i saw it was a question or discussion about which 3 was better than which 3 playing in a game right now. And over the last 2 years history has proved that it is basically a push or maybe a slight edge to the Mavs players in the form of 9 to 6? Same with the next 3 players. And that includes 8 regular season games and 7 playoff games.

The question as i see iit is if these players played now who is better or who would do better? That's how i saw it.

The spurs players have more rings, duh. That was not the question.

[WalterBenitez]

Mavs has no big three only the blondie, the rest sucks