As we lose another game playing small ball

[whottt]

A few questions remain unanswered...

Would we have won this game if Pop actually had been ejected? I say yes.

Pop is insane? Yes.


Would we have won the title this year if Pop hadn't been in love with forcing square pegs in round holes?


And a closing statement...

David West isn't the second coming of Jordan...he's just being guarded by shooting guards.

Remember that as we get outrebounded, as our d gets broken down, and as we get posted up for this loss.

[whottt]

Luck.

Why does Pop want us to suck?

[nkdlunch]

brilliant.

[mardigan]

Nice thread for a win

[exstatic]

...or maybe we don't lose.

[Man Mountain]

:lol

[Leetonidas]

Premature ejaculation forum.

[ShoogarBear]

as whottt aces another thread.

But truth be told, the Spurs won this game playing a style that will get them KILLED against anybody who can rebound in the playoffs.

We won because Jacque Vaughn was able to box out David West when nobody else could.

[SAtown]

Premature ejaculation forum.
Dallas Mavericks forum

[phyzik]

Pop is insane? Yes.

After the game, thats just about the only point thats still valid.

[whottt]

Sorry but we got lucky to win this game...

This is a fucking team fighting for a playoff bid and we make them look like the 97 Bulls.

Finally we won a game playign small lineup to close out a close game...it's like the first time this year.

[Man Mountain]

as whottt aces another thread.

But truth be told, the Spurs won this game playing a style that will get them KILLED against anybody who can rebound in the playoffs.
We won because Jacque Vaughn was able to box out David West when nobody else could.

Exactly. The Spurs can't just jack up threes and hope for them to stop falling.

But hey, a win is a win.

And props to JV, Barry and Timmy for coming thru.

[whottt]

IF you guys think this point isn't valid, you just aren't watching.

[timvp]

Sorry but we got lucky to win this game...

Barry coming up big in the fourth for the first time this year is luck?

Interesting.

:smokin

[Man Mountain]

IF you guys think this point isn't valid, you just aren't watching.

The point is valid. The thread is just funny.

I was saying in the game blog that I didn't get why they went small for the majority of the game. I thought maybe Elson got hurt, but that wasn't it.

[mardigan]

A win is a win, who gives a shit. Manu and Tony dont always play like dogshit, so next time we will do better

[whottt]

Barry coming up big in the fourth for the first time this year is luck?

Interesting.

:smokin


Yawn....

Barry isn't ever on the court for the 4th....

Barry always hits big shots when he's given the chance to take them....Always.



Are you saying he chokes them? Examples please...



Anyway...this wasn't Pop's wet dream small ball lineup...Manu just was having an off night.

Normally Barry isn't on the court to hit those shots...for like, his entire Spurs career.

[ShoogarBear]

Barry coming up big in the fourth for the first time this year is luck?

Interesting.

:smokinowwWWWwwieee!

[SequSpur]

Barry? the better option was Bonner.... :lmao

Fuckin Spurs ain't winning dick this year.

[whottt]

owwWWWwwieee!


I have too much respect for TimVP's basketball acumen to take any of his criticisms of Barry seriously...

[phyzik]

Pop is insane? Yes.

After the game, thats just about the only point thats still valid.

Let me elaborate....




Ahem......








FUCK SMALL BALL

[ShoogarBear]

I have too much respect for TimVP's basketball acumen to take any of his criticisms of Barry seriously...Well, I don't.

Wait, that didn't come out right . . .

[timvp]

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, guess which Spurs lineup has the best +/- over the last ten games?

That's right, small ball. Parker, Barry, Finley, Bowen and Duncan = +29

I hate small ball as much as anyone, but the blame can't go all on Pop. Small ball has worked at times this year and when the Spurs three bigs outside of Duncan combine for 2 points and 3 defensive rebounds in 36 minutes, it's hard to put the blame on Pop for going with something else.

Against, the Hornets, small ball works because West is smallish and they don't rebound overly well outside of Chandler. But yeah, sometimes it blows up in Pop's face when he tries to play small ball against aggressive teams that will fight you for inside position and rebounds *cough* Ruben Patterson owning Michael Finley *cough*.

As long as we don't see small ball in the playoffs, I can stomach it against the right teams in the regular season if the bigs are doing nothing.

[Samr]

Where's that Forest Gump t-shirt when you need it?

"Small ball happens."

(*cue a muddy smiley face on a shirt and a running shoe covered in feces*)

[SPARKY]

Tonight fucked around and beat the Hornets.

Damn right it was a good day.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

Small ball got us back into the game tonight... Vaughn and Barry were playing their asses off tonight, and they both deserved to be in the game at the end.

[whottt]

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, guess which Spurs lineup has the best +/- over the last ten games?

That's right, small ball. Parker, Barry, Finley, Bowen and Duncan = +29

I hate small ball as much as anyone, but the blame can't go all on Pop. Small ball has worked at times this year and when the Spurs three bigs outside of Duncan combine for 2 points and 3 defensive rebounds in 36 minutes, it's hard to put the blame on Pop for going with something else.

Against, the Hornets, small ball works because West is smallish and they don't rebound overly well outside of Chandler. But yeah, sometimes it blows up in Pop's face when he tries to play small ball against aggressive teams that will fight you for inside position and rebounds *cough* Ruben Patterson owning Michael Finley *cough*.

As long as we don't see small ball in the playoffs, I can stomach it against the right teams in the regular season if the bigs are doing nothing.


That lineup is ok to get us back in a game...

But it's when things slow down to a halfcourt pace that we turn into the Bobcats(or whoever is worse than the Celtics this year).

Oh wait...we lost to the fucking Bobcats playing that lineup too..

Basically that lineup closing out games turns us into the worst team in the NBA.




+/- is useless over a small sample size...and it isn't indicative of how effective it is in one or two point games in the final minute.

[ShoogarBear]

The other problem with +/- over the last 10 games is that two of them were humungous blowouts.

[SPARKY]

Spurs still haven't found that versatile 4 man to match up against teams with mobile bigs. It's not exactly like the game was being won tonight with Elson/Oberto alongside TD.

[whottt]

In a half court game to close out a close game I rather Elson on the court...especially if we have the lead. He's big and fast....he can fuck up the other team just by standing there...Finley can't....Barry can't...Bruce can't...Manu can't. He at least has a better chance of getting an o board on offense or blocking/altering a shot on d.

Those guys aren't Forwards...

It's no wonder we get outrebounded...and our interior D turns to crap.

[SPARKY]

Pop plays a guard at the 4 spot when he doesn't have a big who can step out and guard the opposing 4 on the floor. Interior D doesn't mean jack when your 4's man is 20 feet from the rim.

[picnroll]

Elson did a nice job on West. Trouble is on O, with Elson, teams can crowd Duncan. Small ball opens up the paint.

[whottt]

Basically the offensive payoff for trying to grind out a win playing small ball isn't equal to the defensive and fundamental weakness it creates.

[whottt]

Pop plays a guard at the 4 spot when he doesn't have a big who can step out and guard the opposing 4 on the floor. Interior D doesn't mean jack when your 4's man is 20 feet from the rim.


I know why he does it...

Not only because Elson's D pissed him off...but because he legit wants a 4 who can spot up at the 3 line.

But we won 3 titles playing a conventional lineup, without a big shooting threes(well more or less, we got 1 huge game from Horry)...and choke against the Celtics and Bobcats playing this shit.

[whottt]

I am not saying the concept needs to be shot and killed...just the idea of closing out games with it.


Tonight was a fluke win...the Hornets basically choked and made a bunch of stupid TO's at the end of hte game. The ball definitely bounced the Spurs way in the final mins.

This game had the same markings of many a Spurs disappointing loss this season...finally we got lucky.

That's all it was...Pop was on a mission to lose this one too.

[picnroll]

Spurs lack the agile PF/SF who can step outside, rebound, guard agile PFs. Think what West would do for this team.

[SPARKY]

Signed through 2012.

[timvp]

Here's a closer look at Small Ball over the course of the season.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Bowen, Barry and Duncan gives up 98.4 points per 48 minutes, but scores 122.4 points. That's a pretty good return on investment for Pop.

A lineup of Parker, Barry, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 106.5 points per 48 minutes, but scores 127.4 points. Not as good, but the point spread is still pretty impressive.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Barry, Finley and Duncan gives up 105.6 points per 48 minutes, but scores 137.6 points. Can't really complain with that.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 91.4 points per 48 minutes, and 95.3 points. This is the small ball lineup that Pop plays the most ... and the one that is the worst. It's the small ball lineup that killed the Spurs versus the Mavs. The problem with it is that it's just not a good enough offensive lineup to justify going small.

Overall, with small ball during the regular season, there's not much there for the Spurs to look at and show that it doesn't work. All of these are fairly common lineups and they are all pretty effective. In games where the Spurs can't score and are getting swarmed inside (like tonight), is it really that horrible to go small?

I don't think so ... unless it's against a monster rebounding team or a team with shorter players who can bully the Spurs on the low block (Patterson, Bonzi Wells, etc).

[ploto]

I'm curious. How often are the Spurs playing small when the other team is, too? What I mean is, a lot of games I check in on around the NBA, it seems both teams are playing small. How often is Finley actually guarding a PF?

[ShoogarBear]

Here's a closer look at Small Ball over the course of the season.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Bowen, Barry and Duncan gives up 98.4 points per 48 minutes, but scores 122.4 points. That's a pretty good return on investment for Pop.

A lineup of Parker, Barry, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 106.5 points per 48 minutes, but scores 127.4 points. Not as good, but the point spread is still pretty impressive.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Barry, Finley and Duncan gives up 105.6 points per 48 minutes, but scores 137.6 points. Can't really complain with that.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 91.4 points per 48 minutes, and 95.3 points. This is the small ball lineup that Pop plays the most ... and the one that is the worst. It's the small ball lineup that killed the Spurs versus the Mavs. The problem with it is that it's just not a good enough offensive lineup to justify going small.
Interesting.

You realize what you're saying is that the key to Small Ball is playing Barry?

:corn:

[timvp]

Interesting.

You realize what you're saying is that the key to Small Ball is playing Barry?

:corn:

I set it up on a tee for whottt and he misses it :madrun

[timvp]

But seriously, I think you could put a lineup of Parker, Manu, A DECENT SIZED SWING WHO CAN DRIBBLE and Bowen next to Duncan, and it'd work. For example, that lineup worked with Devin Brown.

Plug in even James White and it could be decent.

Again, this is meant only for regular season. As we saw last year in the playoffs, any lineup with Barry in it was annihilated. Finely's lineups didn't do much better.

[whottt]

I set it up on a tee for whottt and he misses it :madrun


Nah...

I know the genesis of the small ball infatuation was in Barry's first year with the team.


The big come back against the Nets that year was with Barry playing PF and the big Suns comeback was also that lineup...


Still not a lineup I want to see closing out playoff games....

It's just too easy for our 2 guards to get posted up, andf too hard to get a damn rebound.


And Barry sucked against the Mavs last year...but he was kind of forgotten in the rotation most of the season. His passying was yippy...really he just made on bad play and that was the TO in game 4(I think) of that series.

Oh man I was pissed...still, Pop didn't use him all season then all of a sudden he throws him out there in a dogfight.

[phyzik]

sometimes I wish Pop would browse this board, there is just too much great analysis and theories to let pass by because of coaching ego.

Im not saying he needs to change his whole scheme because some armchair quarterbacks think it should be done another way, but some insight into hardcore fan thinking could be an edge, if not a good laugh. On occasion there are more detailed breakdowns on this site about a player, or a particular play, than you would get from any amount of game film in the locker room. Besides that, Fans can be brutally honest about a player without having the emotional baggage of having to criticize someone in their face. like it or not, coaches ARE human, even Pop (case in point: Pop and Finley a few months back).

[timvp]

still, Pop didn't use him all season then all of a sudden he throws him out there in a dogfight.

Uh, Barry averaged 20 minutes per game after the All-Star break and over 23 minutes against the Kings. You can't use that excuse for Barry.

He just contracted Steve Blass Disease during the Mavs series.

[timvp]

I know the genesis of the small ball infatuation was in Barry's first year with the team.

True. Problem is Devin Brown was the main reason that lineup was so successful at first. He could guard the Shawn Marions of the NBA and the Spurs wouldn't die as much in the rebounding department.

Nowadays if Pop goes small against the wrong team in the regular season or goes small in the playoffs, it's a disaster because the Spurs are too soft down low.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

so basically, our playoff hopes hinge on elson and oberto, b/c if those guys dont play well small ball gets unleashed on the mavs, thus resulting in a playoff exit?

correct?

[whottt]

True. Problem is Devin Brown was the main reason that lineup was so successful at first. He could guard the Shawn Marions of the NBA and the Spurs wouldn't die as much in the rebounding department.

Come to think of it...you're right, and that actually puts the small ball genesis during the Hedo year...that was the year he put Devin on Dirk.





Nowadays if Pop goes small against the wrong team in the regular season or goes small in the playoffs, it's a disaster because the Spurs are too soft down low.


Yeap...I understand wanting the team to have the versatility to go small and do it well...but I think Pop is just a tad infatuated with it....


We can be playing the worst teams in the NBA and Pop will counter adjust like he's playing an elite team. It sucks.

I think the only team it's really going to be effectrive against is Phoenix.

The Mavs will flat out murder our guys if we try that crap again.

[ManuMagic]

With Oberto/Elson/Ely not exactly being well versed with defending other team's bigs on the perimeter, Pop has no choice but to go small at times. When he does it and with what lineups are the key, and he is still trying to figure that one out. It's the Spurs' main matchup problem.

[pad300]

Here's a closer look at Small Ball over the course of the season.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Bowen, Barry and Duncan gives up 98.4 points per 48 minutes, but scores 122.4 points. That's a pretty good return on investment for Pop.

A lineup of Parker, Barry, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 106.5 points per 48 minutes, but scores 127.4 points. Not as good, but the point spread is still pretty impressive.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Barry, Finley and Duncan gives up 105.6 points per 48 minutes, but scores 137.6 points. Can't really complain with that.

A lineup of Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen and Duncan gives up 91.4 points per 48 minutes, and 95.3 points. This is the small ball lineup that Pop plays the most ... and the one that is the worst. It's the small ball lineup that killed the Spurs versus the Mavs. The problem with it is that it's just not a good enough offensive lineup to justify going small.

Overall, with small ball during the regular season, there's not much there for the Spurs to look at and show that it doesn't work. All of these are fairly common lineups and they are all pretty effective. In games where the Spurs can't score and are getting swarmed inside (like tonight), is it really that horrible to go small?

I don't think so ... unless it's against a monster rebounding team or a team with shorter players who can bully the Spurs on the low block (Patterson, Bonzi Wells, etc).


Interesting.

You realize what you're saying is that the key to Small Ball is playing Barry?

:corn:

There is an alternative - They key to small ball is not playing Bowen... Philosophically, I buy this one more. Small ball is all about OUTSCORING the opposition. With Bowen, we are trying to do that 4 on 5. Note the 10+ increase in scoring when Bowen is out; which is greater than the defensive improvement he gives us. Could it be that our core small ball line-up is too defensive?

[bdictjames]

If only Horry was healthy enough to be the PF, he could run back in those days.

[Obstructed_View]

Looking at stats over the course of the season sort of masks what the Spurs can do on defense when they clamp down, and those exact things are what smallball cannot do. I think we all agree that the Spurs' defense has played in short bursts, but those bursts have been very, very good.

I'm worried that squeaking out a lucky win by jacking up a thousand threes against a lottery team validates running smallball in Pop's mind, and allows him to give an early hook to any of the centers when he should be gearing them up for the playoffs. There are certain guys that he punishes for mistakes and others that he punishes for lack of effort, claiming that he only does one but not the other. He used to have the rotation down by this point in the season and guys knew that they could play without looking over their shoulder any time something negative happened. He started doing this shit to Rasho and Nazr about this time last year, too. The fact that Elson is getting a hook three minutes into games doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. If the Spurs go to the small lineups in the playoffs, the key this year is going to have to be Bonner, because he adds energy, movement, rebounding and tenacity while having some size and some ability. Mainly for his hustle, though.

That said, the Spurs will go completely dead offensively against a playoff team with Bonner in a small lineup since it'll be Duncan in the post and four guys standing around the perimeter, just like last year against the Mavs.