Future Hall of Famers?

[mffl89]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/marty_burns/03/30/hall.worthy/index.html

"Hall monitor
Which NBA vets deserve enshrinement in Springfield?
Posted: Friday March 30, 2007 1:04PM; Updated: Friday March 30, 2007 4:30PM
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The Hall of Fame is set to announce its Class of 2007 on Monday. To mark the occasion, we thought it would be fun to predict which of today's current players will soon be joining the enshrinees in Springfield, Mass.

The only caveat is that we're only going to consider players who are in their ninth season or more. Sorry, LeBron and D-Wade, but you'll have to wait. For now we want to just analyze those players who have a long and proven track record in the NBA.

Keep in mind, the Basketball Hall of Fame is a very exclusive club. It is not like the baseball Hall, which seems to allow in every pitcher who manages to hang around 15 seasons. In basketball, you're lucky if one or two guys make it in a given year. In fact, over the past five years there have been only seven players inducted (not counting veteran's committee selections): Charles Barkley, Joe Dumars, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Robert Parish, James Worthy and Magic Johnson.

Also, this is by nature a subjective exercise. We happen to prefer players who leave a mark on the game more than those who pile up big stats. You might have a different view, and that's OK. But here's a note that might be of interest: Every past MVP has made it to the Hall (which is good news for Kevin Garnett).

No-brainers: These guys are in

Shaquille O'Neal - Ranks with Chamberlain, Russell and Abdul-Jabbar on the list of all-time greatest pivots; has four NBA rings and an MVP.

Tim Duncan - One of the greatest power forwards ever to play; three NBA titles and two MVPs make him a first-ballot shoo-in.

Allen Iverson - The best scorer under 6-foot-5 ever to play the game; owns the third-highest scoring average of all time.

Kobe Bryant - One of the greatest scorers ever, but also a fierce competitor and three-time NBA champ.

Kevin Garnett - The NBA's Ernie Banks; even if he never wins a ring, the '04 MVP deserves it for all-around excellence and love of the game.

Steve Nash - The only player under 6-5 to win two MVPs. Plus, he's Canada's biggest contribution to basketball since Naismith.

Probably in, but have to think about it

Jason Kidd - One of the all-time best point guards, and the most creative passer of his era; played the game at both ends, and made it to two NBA Finals with Nets.

Gary Payton - One of the game's top defenders; was also a 20-point scorer who led Sonics to the NBA
Finals, and won a ring as backup with Heat in '06.

Dirk Nowitzki - Maybe the best European player ever, the 7-foot German has established himself as one of the top scorers of his era. But if his Mavs blow it again, all bets are off.

Bubble candidates

Vince Carter - Eight-time All-Star and one of the all-time best dunkers, but has never won anything and had a messy departure from Toronto.

Ray Allen - Seven-time All-Star and owner of one of the all-time prettiest jump shots, but has never led his team past the conference semifinals.

Paul Pierce - May go down as the greatest scorer in Celtics history, but has none of the playoff success associated with Boston's glorious tradition.

Tracy McGrady - One of the premier scorers of his era, but he too lacks postseason validation. His next playoff series triumph will be his first.

Ben Wallace - Four-time Defensive Player of the Year and anchor of the Pistons' 2004 championship. But should he get in if he only played at one end?

Dikembe Mutombo - Unlike Wallace, he has a 10-point scoring average to go with his four Defensive Player of Year trophies. But he doesn't have the ring.

Early Hall potential has since faded away

Grant Hill - The former Duke standout was well on his way before a foot injury derailed his career. Too bad, because he is also one of the game's all-time gentlemen.

Alonzo Mourning - A few years ago I thought he should get in, but I've changed my mind. Now I think he'll be remembered more for his courageous comeback from kidney disease than his fierce defense and shot-blocking. And that's not a bad thing.

Chris Webber - Like Hill and Mourning, he had a chance before suffering a devastating injury (knee). At least he's regaining a measure of pride in Detroit.

As for everyone else ...
... you had your moments and you made a nice chunk of change. But sorry, Chauncey Billups, Mike Bibby, Rashard Lewis, Jermaine O'Neal, Stephon Marbury, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell et al. -- you'll need to buy a ticket for this Hall of Fame."

[lefty]

Well, after tonight's Wizards-Raptors game, It's safe to say that Michael Ruffin is a serious candidate for the Hall of Fame

[Flight3107]

Dirk will get in based on his NBA and International career.

[aaronstampler]

Manu's already in. He could retire tomorrow he'd be in thanks to the Argentina/Italy stuff.

[ChumpDumper]

Obvously the publishing deadline was before James White's debut for the Spurs.

[SRJ]

I would reverse Kidd + GP with Nash. Playing with those athletes, in that system, is like a steroid shot for a very good point guard.

[dg7md]

Horry and Reggie Miller not in the hall of fame is stupid. You can't measure a great player ineligible to be in the hall of fame without post season success, then turn around and deny these two because of their careers, which were written in by post season success.

[mffl89]

I think Reggie should be in but not Horry because Horry doesn't really impact the game as much as Reggie does.

[toosmallshoes]

I think Reggie should be in but not Horry because Horry doesn't really impact the game as much as Reggie does.
ummm.... Horry has shot three teams to championships. Reggie got blocked by Detroit once, and really made Spike Lee look like a chump once, and won a championship zero times. As far as championships go, Horry has impacted the game as many times as Michael Jordan. To impact means to leave an impression... correct??? I think think Horry's rings leave a bigger divot than anything Reggie ever left behind.

[SRJ]

ummm.... Horry has shot three teams to championships. Reggie got blocked by Detroit once, and really made Spike Lee look like a chump once, and won a championship zero times. As far as championships go, Horry has impacted the game as many times as Michael Jordan. To impact means to leave an impression... correct??? I think think Horry's rings leave a bigger divot than anything Reggie ever left behind.

Ummm...

Horry was never the best player on any of those teams. He was never the second best player on any of those teams. He may have been the third best player on one of them (the 1994 Rockets), but electing Horry to the HOF based on his inclusion on six championship rosters would be a stretch Mr. Fantastic couldn't pull off.

Put Horry in Miller's place on those Indiana teams (as the #1 scoring option, not as the shooting guard) and tell me with a straight face that Horry still wins six championships. Convince me he even gets to a conference finals.

To say Horry's impact was equal to Jordan's is the height of ludicrousness.

[toosmallshoes]

Put Horry on even one of Miller's teams as the "who cares what number of best" player and maybe Miller might have won a ring. Horry isn't the leader. He's the fantastic partner. And neither the Rockets nor the Lakers nor the Spurs would have won some of their championships without him.
I didn't say Jordan's impact was equal to Horry's. That's generalized nonsense. Jordan was the best competitor to ever play basketball. Although Horry did happen to elevate three different teams to championships....... but Jordan was pretty cool when he played for the Wizards.

[timvp]

How did Michael Finley even make that article?

[jman3000]

How did Michael Finley even make that article?

I seemed to have remembered him being quite a prolific scorer... just checked the stats though and he never even broke the low 20's in scoring average during his peak.

soooooo never mind.

[toosmallshoes]

Well, someday Avery Johnson and Malik Rose will have their numbers hanging from the ceiling of the AT&T Center. It's all about context.

[SRJ]

Put Horry on even one of Miller's teams as the "who cares what number of best" player and maybe Miller might have won a ring. Horry isn't the leader. He's the fantastic partner. And neither the Rockets nor the Lakers nor the Spurs would have won some of their championships without him.
I didn't say Jordan's impact was equal to Horry's. That's generalized nonsense. Jordan was the best competitor to ever play basketball. Although Horry did happen to elevate three different teams to championships....... but Jordan was pretty cool when he played for the Wizards.


As far as championships go, Horry has impacted the game as many times as Michael Jordan.

A. You clearly contradicted yourself

B. I didn't say "ADD Horry to Miller's teams", I said "REPLACE Miller with Horry"

C. I do agree that Horry has a unique place in NBA history, but that in and of itself is not HOF worthy. Look at all of the NBA players in the HOF - you're going to find that they led their teams in points, rebounds, assists etc. year after year after year.

Horry may have prevented the 2002 Lakers and and 2005 Spurs from being eliminated, but that's worlds apart from saying he was the reason they won. Horry made high-profile contribututions to the more substantial efforts of better teammates Olajuwon, Thorpe, Drexler, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. Remember the saying about the stonecutter? Horry may have made the most noticeable blow, but the Olajuwons, O'Neal, and Duncans of the world made many, many more blows along the way. Miller made more blows along the way, too.

[mffl89]

Horry and Reggie Miller not in the hall of fame is stupid. You can't measure a great player ineligible to be in the hall of fame without post season success, then turn around and deny these two because of their careers, which were written in by post season success.


ummm.... Horry has shot three teams to championships. Reggie got blocked by Detroit once, and really made Spike Lee look like a chump once, and won a championship zero times. As far as championships go, Horry has impacted the game as many times as Michael Jordan. To impact means to leave an impression... correct??? I think think Horry's rings leave a bigger divot than anything Reggie ever left behind.

If Reggie Miller should be in the HOF because of his postseason success, then why do you portray Reggie as a player who didn't accomplish much?

[mffl89]

I believe Rashard Lewis will make it to the HOF one day if he plays for a coach that will maximize his abilities.

[exstatic]

Horry and Reggie Miller not in the hall of fame is stupid. You can't measure a great player ineligible to be in the hall of fame without post season success, then turn around and deny these two because of their careers, which were written in by post season success.
I think the point is that you need BOTH big numbers and post season success. There is no way in hell that they let career 7.2ppg Horry into the HOF. NO FUCKING WAY.

[samikeyp]

Gotta agree w/Ex....If there was just a HOF for playoff performances,though...then Horry would own it.

[DarrinS]

How is Dirk not a lock?

[mffl89]

^^^ yea IF the Mavs don't win this year's finals, I still don't see why Dirk won't be a lock. KG has never made it to the finals and yet he is a lock.
AND it's arguable that Dirk > KG when their careers are over.

[exstatic]

AND it's arguable that Dirk > KG when their careers are over.
Not if you evaluate two-way players. KG just SMOKES Dirk as a defender, shot blocker, rebounder, and he's damn nears as good offensively.

[SilverPlayer]

I seriously think Horry has a shot at the hall. He deserves it if for no other reason because three teams should retire his jersey. (they won't except for houston who will probably get that honor.) Every championship he has been a part of, he has played a crucial role in the games that decided that championship. How many players can you say that about? How many players have then gone on to do that with two other teams?

The other thing about Horry is that he has the personality/ connections to have a whole litany of players/ coaches supporting his bid.

[JMarkJohns]

Ray Allen - Seven-time All-Star and owner of one of the all-time prettiest jump shots, but has never led his team past the conference semifinals.

Not true. He, with the Bucks, made it to game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals in 2001.

I think Allen should join the "probably in, but I'd have to think about it" category.

I think Ginobili is in as well.

[mabber]

I seriously think Horry has a shot at the hall. He deserves it if for no other reason because three teams should retire his jersey. (they won't except for houston who will probably get that honor.) Every championship he has been a part of, he has played a crucial role in the games that decided that championship. How many players can you say that about? How many players have then gone on to do that with two other teams?

The other thing about Horry is that he has the personality/ connections to have a whole litany of players/ coaches supporting his bid.

There's zero chance that Horry makes the Hall of Fame.

[exstatic]

There's zero chance that Horry makes the Hall of Fame.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Mavs fan, but yes, 7.2ppg players do not get enshrined in the b-ball HOF.

I think Ginobili is a lock for his complete body of work: NBA champion, Euroleague champion and international competions like the WCs and the Olympics Gold medal. Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.

[Phenomanul]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Mavs fan, but yes, 7.2ppg players do not get enshrined in the b-ball HOF.

I think Ginobili is a lock for his complete body of work: NBA champion, Euroleague champion and international competions like the WCs and the Olympics Gold medal. Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.


I would add that I don't believe Manu is quite finished with his NBA resume....

[exstatic]

Here is one site's formula to determine HOF likelihood for NBA players. It's quite an arbitrary formula, with a cutoff of 135 points, but since the Magic/Bird days, there are only a handful of players under that mark that are in, and a handful over that aren't. It's pretty damned accurate. The page in the link outlines the criteria, and there is a link at the bottom that takes you to the lists of players, past and present, and their scores. You can argue the formula, but not the totals and results.
HOF monitor (http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm)

[resistanze]

How the hell is Jason Kidd not a no-brainer?

[powerpower]

ginobili is not going to make the HOF with his current resume

[ShoogarBear]

LMAO at J-Kidd being a maybe at the same time One-Way Nash being a no-brainer.

[cherylsteele]

ginobili is not going to make the HOF with his current resume
Are you basing that on his NBA career or his entire BASKETBALL career?
Exstatic said it:Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.

He has been a champion and a star at every level of professional ball he has played. I think he gets in based on his whole PROFESSIONAL career, not just his NBA career.

[JMarkJohns]

LMAO at J-Kidd being a maybe at the same time One-Way Nash being a no-brainer.

Nash is a no-brainer only because of the MVPs. No eligable MVP is out of the Hall, so there's no way the NBA allows a two-time MVP to be the first. If for no other reason, they won't allow the award itself to be lessened.

As someone who's watched Kidd a lot, I can tell you I never cared for his game. He made some great passes in transition, but all in all, he was a complete bust for Phoenix. He's done great in New Jersey (at least for the first two seasons), but as mentioned, it was the Leastern Conference. In those two trips to the Finals, he led his Nets past just one fifty-win team. ONE. That means in one trip the Nets failed to play a single 50-win team. They had a really shitty conference back then and it didn't take much to make it out, hence their 8-2 record vs. the West's best during their two Finals trips.

With Phoenix, the teams he led went out in the first round year after year. The only time the Suns advanced during his tenure with them was 2000, when he was out with a broken leg, KJ was manning the point and Duncan, for the Spurs, was out with injury. He returned for the Lakers series and the Suns were quickly run off the floor in five games.

His stats say he's a lock, but his marginal successes may cause question in some minds.

Again, against the Western Conference his teams were 0-fer in the Playoffs. Kidd-led teams are like 1-for-8 vs. 50-win teams. As soon as the East becomes competative again, his team, which has talent, fades.

I'm not saying he's not deserving, because he is, but I certainly can see why some would have reservations.

[ShoogarBear]

Nash is a no-brainer only because of the MVPs. No eligable MVP is out of the Hall, so there's no way the NBA allows a two-time MVP to be the first. If for no other reason, they won't allow the award itself to be lessened.A lot of people would say the award itself was already lessened when they gave it to Nash twice.



As someone who's watched Kidd a lot, I can tell you I never cared for his game. He made some great passes in transition, but all in all, he was a complete bust for Phoenix. He's done great in New Jersey (at least for the first two seasons), but as mentioned, it was the Leastern Conference. In those two trips to the Finals, he led his Nets past just one fifty-win team. ONE. That means in one trip the Nets failed to play a single 50-win team. They had a really shitty conference back then and it didn't take much to make it out, hence their 8-2 record vs. the West's best during their two Finals trips.

With Phoenix, the teams he led went out in the first round year after year. The only time the Suns advanced during his tenure with them was 2000, when he was out with a broken leg, KJ was manning the point and Duncan, for the Spurs, was out with injury. He returned for the Lakers series and the Suns were quickly run off the floor in five games.The sum total of your argument is that Nash did better with the Suns than Kidd. I'd like to see what Nash would do with Clifford Robinson, Rex Champman, Danny Manning, and Tom Gugliotta.

Oh, and no way Nash gets those Nets teams to the Finals, even playing in the East.



I'm not saying he's not deserving, because he is, but I certainly can see why some would have reservations.All-NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
All-NBA Second Team 2003
(Nash: First Team 2005, 2006, Third Team 2003, 2004)

All-Defense First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
All-Defense Second Team 2003, 2004, 2005
(Nash: :lmao)

5th All-Time APG average (Nash: 15th)
7th All-Time Assists (Nash: 30th)

Head-to-head, the only one there should be reservations about is Nash.

They both will probably make it, but if Nash gets in and Kidd doesn't, they should burn the place down.

[kobe_bryant]

your hate for nash is disturbing.

[exstatic]

Are you basing that on his NBA career or his entire BASKETBALL career?
Exstatic said it:Remember, it's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.

He has been a champion and a star at every level of professional ball he has played. I think he gets in based on his whole PROFESSIONAL career, not just his NBA career.
That guard from Portland and NJ, Drazen Petrovic, is in the hall, based on a similar Euro/NBA split career. I think Manu has probably done more, but I won't speak ill of the dead. DP was killed in a car crash at age 28.

Manu is the only player to win an NBA championship, an Olympic gold, and a Euro League championship, and he was a key player on all of them, if not THE key player. He was also an NBA All Star in 2004.

Drazen's national team did win the World Championships in 1990, and he was 3rd team All NBA in 1993, his last year on earth.

[resistanze]

your hate for nash is disturbing.

It's not hate, it's just the truth.

While it's true that being the MVP has been a guarantee for the HoF, let's put that aside for a second. After all, Jason Kidd should've beaten TD for the MVP a few years ago based on today's criteria.

If Jason Kidd and Steve Nash both retired today, based on what they've done in their careers, I'd only put Kidd in the Hall. I think Nash will get in when it's all set and done (based on merit, not MVPs), but to say Nash is a no-brainer and Kidd isn't is crazy talk.

[kobe_bryant]

if you have joe dumars in the hall


nash deserves to go
nuff said


i will be a first ballot HOF'er

[StoneCutter]

IMHO Reggie Miller is not a Hall of Famer. Hall of Famers should be the best players during their era. Reggie Miller made the All-NBA team only three times (all 3rd team). Longevity and some memorable playoff performances are simply not enough.

[mffl89]

It's not hate, it's just the truth.

While it's true that being the MVP has been a guarantee for the HoF, let's put that aside for a second. After all, Jason Kidd should've beaten TD for the MVP a few years ago based on today's criteria.

If Jason Kidd and Steve Nash both retired today, based on what they've done in their careers, I'd only put Kidd in the Hall. I think Nash will get in when it's all set and done (based on merit, not MVPs), but to say Nash is a no-brainer and Kidd isn't is crazy talk.

Well Kidd has played 2 more seasons than Nash so it would not be fair to make that assumption.

[Jimcs50]

Kidd is a lock

[fonzy16]

Ginobili is a lock - won everything that can be won: Olympic gold, NBA champ, Euroleague Champion, FiBA World Championship.

Horry is a lock too - one of most clutch players, in playoff time!!!

[mabber]

Ginobili is a lock - won everything that can be won: Olympic gold, NBA champ, Euroleague Champion, FiBA World Championship.

Horry is a lock too - one of most clutch players, in playoff time!!!

I'd bet anything that Horry doesn't make the HOF.

[JMarkJohns]

The sum total of your argument is that Nash did better with the Suns than Kidd. I'd like to see what Nash would do with Clifford Robinson, Rex Champman, Danny Manning, and Tom Gugliotta.

Oh, and no way Nash gets those Nets teams to the Finals, even playing in the East.

There was more talent that just that. Rodney Rodgers was a sixth-man award winner. Shawn Marion was an 18-11 player alongside Kidd. Kidd Also had a season with McDyess in his pre-injury prime. Throw in some role players like Tony Delk (double-digit scorer), Wesley Person (see Delk) and KJ (solid 12-4 guy alongside Kidd), Cedric Ceballos and Dennis Scott and you have far more talent than just Uncle Spliffy, King Rex, Googs and Manning. Not all at once, but if they were good enough to win 50 games season after season, why couldn't they win just one playoff series? Hell, those Suns teams actually had defense. Unfortunately, they couldn't score in the halfcourt to save their life. Teams would play Kidd for the pass, knowing he'd klank more than 60% of his jumpers.


All-NBA First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
All-NBA Second Team 2003
(Nash: First Team 2005, 2006, Third Team 2003, 2004)

All-Defense First Team 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
All-Defense Second Team 2003, 2004, 2005
(Nash: :lmao)

5th All-Time APG average (Nash: 15th)
7th All-Time Assists (Nash: 30th)

Head-to-head, the only one there should be reservations about is Nash.

Like I said, statistically, Kidd is the better candidate. He's played longer, played bigger minutes for longer, played on teams with better talent for longer. Even on those crappy Mavericks teams, Kidd had Jim Jackson and Jamaal Mashburn. He's a much better rebounder and defensively, he's one of the best at his position. Still, what about FG%? 3FG%? FT%? What about all those years Kidd was hovering around 40% FG with 3+ turnovers a game and losing in the first round? What about overall playoff record? Nash is at 8-6 overall, Kidd at 8-10. Nash just one first-round exit, Kidd five.


They both will probably make it, but if Nash gets in and Kidd doesn't, they should burn the place down.

Agreed. Like I said, the only reason Nash is a lock is his MVPs. Statistically, Kidd is a lock. I just presented my opinion as to why some might have questions. Save for those two Finals runs in a bottomfeeder conference, his teams have barely made a noise in the playoffs. Nash's, in a tougher conference, have fared much better.

Now, I'll admit to some bias. I hated the Jason Kidd trade. I thought it was rediculously stupid. I didn't like what th Suns gave up (Finley, Cassell, AC Green, 1st), I didn't like Kidd and nor his potential for the Suns. They lost several picks with that trade and subsequent trades to rebuild a bench since they traded two starters and a rotation player for Kidd alone. With as well as the Suns draft, those picks were invalueable. That single trade set them back a decade. Twixt he, then his diminished trade value thanks to first round flops and wife-beatin' pops, what was acquired in return for him.

Kidd is certainly a hall of famer, but for the Suns, he was a bust. He was a bitch ass punk who cheated on his wife, beat her, cursed out one-time teammates, coaches and GMs, got coaches fired, flipped off fans and thumbed his nose at an entire community after they warmly welcomed him back from anger counseling for HIS fist-meet-face moment with his wife.

The MVPs are really all that's put Nash over the top. Statistically he'd need another four or five years at a high rate of play to justify his induction or two or three with a Title or two. We all know how unlikely the latter scenerio is, though.

[1Parker1]

Reggie Miller s going to be in the HOF easily, I believe. Though he didn't win any championships...like many great players who didn't, he was the face of one franchise for over 15 years. With him as the leader, the Pacers were one of the championship contenders year in and out in the East...just look at how they are faring without him as the leader of the team these days.

More so than that his 3 point shooting accuracy and records are not something to look away from.

[TDMVPDPOY]

is rodman even in the hall??

since he is fuckn 10x better than big ben

[spursfaninla]

Big Ben is nowhere near the level of a HOF player.

YOu don't get in the hall with stats like his.

DPOY or not, if you are not a serious offensive player, either in assists or points, you pretty much don't get in.

[resistanze]

Well Kidd has played 2 more seasons than Nash so it would not be fair to make that assumption.

What assumption? I thought the article was to predicting who is in and out of the HoF at this point and time. If Kidd playing two more seasons makes it an unfair comparison, isn't that more of a reason why Kidd should be on the no-brainer list?