Why is Patrick Ewing never considered soft?

[baseline bum]

I don't get how David Robinson can be considered a bum for getting owned by Olajuwon, but Ewing can't.

In their 1994 matchup, Ewing sucked. He shot a pathetic 36% and scored 20 in only 2 out of 7 games. Those aren't even Olowokandi-level numbers. To me, it's unheard of that a bigman who is some supposed franchise player shoots 36% in the Finals.

[lefty]

Did u really watch the 1994 Finals?

[Chris Childs]

What you got against Patrick?

David Robinson was and still is a bum.

It is what it is.

[Bob Lanier]

He isn't considered soft?

[lefty]

Even Will Perdue had more stones than Ewing.

He was that generation's Dirk Nowitzki
:wtf :wtf :wtf :wtf

[ducks]

I consider him soft

I think david is considered soft because of the old spur colors
and mermaids
I do not think it had to do with Olajuwon outplaying david
david did not have help Olajuwon had 3 people helping him guard david

[monosylab1k]

Patrick Ewing had moments of toughness, but overall he was soft. Not as soft as The Admiral tho.

[resistanze]

After Ewing got destroyed by Pippen on that dunk, it was clear he'd never win a championship.

[Obstructed_View]

The only way the soft label applies is because David didn't care enough about basketball early in his career, as evidenced by the string of playoff upsets the Spurs suffered until the arrival of Tim Duncan. Since Robinson was in the top three in free throws attempted during most of his career, there's no denying his toughness. It's probably a label that was made up by the Scoop Jacksons of the world who think David isn't gangsta enough.

Olajuwon cared about basketball during the western conference finals, and that was only because he felt personally slighted, not because he gave a shit about basketball, the city of Houston, or his teammates. Hakeem was, for once in his career, brilliant in that series, and David indeed played about as well as anyone could have against him. Hakeem salvaged his career in that series, as he would probably otherwise have been remembered as a seven foot Gilbert Arenas.

[bobbyjoe]

So Hakeem wasn't brilliant when he led a team when Kenny Smith/Maxwell as starting backcourt to the Title in 94?

He wasnt brilliant when he led an upset playoff victory over one of the greatest Laker Dynasties ever in 1986?

He wasn't brilliant when he torched Ewing and O'Neal in the Finals in back to back seasons?

He was only brilliant when he abused Robinson?

Some of you Spurs fans are just on crack, literally. Saying Hakeem "salvaged his career in 95" is literally about the dumbest thing I've ever read. This is like saying Shaq salvaged his career with his 4th ring last yr.

To the question at hand, Ewing was absolutely not a soft player. Yes, he was killed by Hakeem in 94, but so what?

Robinson's soft reputation comes for the same reason that KG and Webber are considered soft. None of these 3 players are guys with the cajones to take and make the big shot in a tight spot of a big game. Robinson is not considered soft because Hakeem killed him in 95. Even if that series never happened, DRob would still be labeled soft because of his failure to step up in the clutch against the Utah's of the world in the playoffs. Avery called out DRob for his lack of leadership in 95 as did Dennis Rodman.

Ewing came up short against MJ and Hakeem most of his career, but he battled like a warrior in doing so. DRob may have been a better overall player than Ewing, but Ewing wasn't soft.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't get how David Robinson can be considered a bum for getting owned by Olajuwon, but Ewing can't.

In their 1994 matchup, Ewing sucked. He shot a pathetic 36% and scored 20 in only 2 out of 7 games. Those aren't even Olowokandi-level numbers. To me, it's unheard of that a bigman who is some supposed franchise player shoots 36% in the Finals.

DRob only shot 43% against Hakeem in 95. Hardly anything to crow about. Especially when he let Hakeem go for 56% against him by getting twisted like a pretzel on every headfake.

I mean after the 15th time biting on a headfake, maybe you should focus on the defensive fundamental of staying on your feet?!

If Ewing played with Tim Duncan instead of DRob in 99/03, he'd have had 2 rings as well.

[Vinnie_Johnson]

Patrick was anything but soft. This is a stupid thread.

[SRJ]

Two words: New. York.

[LakeShow]

You know, I never cared for Patrick's game. I liked him better when he was with Georgetown and early in his career. He got stuck on shooting jumpers and would not go low enough for me. He was not soft on Defense because he was tenacious at times but on offense, I would call him a little soft.

Hakeem was just awesome! Great to watch, he played with passion on both ends of the court. Great, Great Player! He lost interest when Shaq got in town. He hated to guard Shaq! :lol

[SRJ]

I agree with Lakeshow - I wasn't a fan of his game. But I don't think he was soft and I don't think he sucked. Patrick in '94, and David and Shaq in '95, had the misfortune of being in the way as Hakeem played at the greatest limits of his talents.


The only way the soft label applies is because David didn't care enough about basketball early in his career, as evidenced by the string of playoff upsets the Spurs suffered until the arrival of Tim Duncan.

String of upsets? I don't agree. 1991 was most definitely an upset, David was injured for the 1992 playoffs against the Suns, in 1993 they lost to the #1 seed Suns (playing from the #5), in 1994 they lost as a #4 to the #5 Jazz (the #5 actually wins this matchup more often than the #4 does).

1995 was a classic upset, but they did lose to the eventual champions; the Rockets upset all four opponents that season, so it's hard to single out the Spurs in that instance.

1996 was in upset territory, but Utah was hardly dirt themselves: they would go on to push Seattle to seven games in the WCF, then win the West the next two seasons.

Looking at that history, I consider 1991 and 1995 to be upsets. Two upsets in seven seasons is hardly a string. Even if you want to throw in 1996, it still isn't a string.

[samikeyp]

To call either player soft is stupid. You cannot play the game at the high level those two did for as long as they did and be soft.

[mabber]

So Hakeem wasn't brilliant when he led a team when Kenny Smith/Maxwell as starting backcourt to the Title in 94?

He wasnt brilliant when he led an upset playoff victory over one of the greatest Laker Dynasties ever in 1986?

He wasn't brilliant when he torched Ewing and O'Neal in the Finals in back to back seasons?

He was only brilliant when he abused Robinson?

Some of you Spurs fans are just on crack, literally. Saying Hakeem "salvaged his career in 95" is literally about the dumbest thing I've ever read. This is like saying Shaq salvaged his career with his 4th ring last yr.

To the question at hand, Ewing was absolutely not a soft player. Yes, he was killed by Hakeem in 94, but so what?

Robinson's soft reputation comes for the same reason that KG and Webber are considered soft. None of these 3 players are guys with the cajones to take and make the big shot in a tight spot of a big game. Robinson is not considered soft because Hakeem killed him in 95. Even if that series never happened, DRob would still be labeled soft because of his failure to step up in the clutch against the Utah's of the world in the playoffs. Avery called out DRob for his lack of leadership in 95 as did Dennis Rodman.

Ewing came up short against MJ and Hakeem most of his career, but he battled like a warrior in doing so. DRob may have been a better overall player than Ewing, but Ewing wasn't soft.

It's not even close to the dumbest thing that I've read on this forum (not even in the top 100 :lol ), but it is an extremely ridiculous statement.

[SpursFanInAustin]

I think Ewing is never called soft because of the Knicks reputation in the 90s to being a bruising and physical team with guys who laid hard fouls like Charles Oakley, Xavier McDaniel, and Anthony Mason being the enforcers around Ewing. Even guys like John Starks and Derek Harper were noted for being physical defenders. That's why I think no one sees Ewing as soft cause the Knicks weren't soft.

[ambchang]

Patrick Ewing had moments of toughness, but overall he was soft. Not as soft as The Admiral tho.
Robinson is the softest NBA player to have led the league in blocks, rebounding, FTAs and dunks.
He also played soft in guarding Shaq in the low post with a floating particle in his back, holding Shaq to 22.5ppg in the series.
Soft indeed.

[monosylab1k]

Robinson is the softest NBA player to have led the league in blocks, rebounding, FTAs and dunks.
He also played soft in guarding Shaq in the low post with a floating particle in his back, holding Shaq to 22.5ppg in the series.
Soft indeed.

Good for him. He was still soft. Since when does blocking a shot make you "physical"? How physical was Mark Eaton?

[ambchang]

Good for him. He was still soft. Since when does blocking a shot make you "physical"? How physical was Mark Eaton?
I like how you avoided all the other ones and only picked the blocked shots part, what about rebounding, FTAs, dunks and most of all, guarding Shaq with a floating particle in his back?
BTW, I would have picked Manute Bol rather than Eaton if I was you. Eaton was at least as physical as Ewing, he was just slow.

[monosylab1k]

rebounding

Dirk gets lots of rebounds, are you willing to admit that he's tough?


FTAs

shooting a free throw - the benchmark of toughness.


dunks

Harold Miner


guarding Shaq with a floating particle in his back?

And was this back when Shaq was young and overrated on Orlando, or when he was in Los Angeles and DR had TD to back him up?

say whatever you want Spurs fan, David Robinson was soft. Not to say that he wasn't a great player. He certainly was. But seeing him get thoroughly dominated and dragged around like a rag doll by Hakeem in the WCF solidified his reputation as being soft.

[ducks]

do you guys no head to head record with shaq vs david
david owned shaq with a good back

[MrChug]

Ewing might not be called soft, but one thing he can be called starts with an "L" and ends with "oser".

[ambchang]

Dirk gets lots of rebounds, are you willing to admit that he's tough?
Maybe it was one of the years I missed watching the NBA, when did he lead the league in rebounds? Because I never even recalled Dirk finishing in the top 5. And please don't compare a guy who has never averaged over 10 rpg to Robinson when it comes to rebounding.
I had a very hard time finding another soft player in this list (http://basketball-reference.com/leaders/TRB_year.html), please help me out.


shooting a free throw - the benchmark of toughness.
I would imagine people gets fouled before they go to the line.
I found another list (http://basketball-reference.com/leaders/FTA_year.html), and I also couldn't find too many soft players there.


Harold Miner
Dunking pretty = lots of dunks?
Again, could you let me know which year Miner lead the league in dunks per game, and what year Robinson won the dunk contest? Man, I really need to catch up with my NBA history lessons.


And was this back when Shaq was young and overrated on Orlando, or when he was in Los Angeles and DR had TD to back him up?

It was when Shaq was in LA, it really isn't that hard to find out which year Shaq was held to 22.5 ppg, and regardless of WHO was backing Robinson up, it doesn't change the fact that Robinson was guarding Shaq as the primary defender, in many cases 1-1 with a floating particle in his back.


say whatever you want Spurs fan, David Robinson was soft. Not to say that he wasn't a great player. He certainly was. But seeing him get thoroughly dominated and dragged around like a rag doll by Hakeem in the WCF solidified his reputation as being soft.
And that brings the original question of why Ewing wasn't considered soft.
This post also let me into a new english word "soft", meaning being outplayed.
As in:
Dirk Nowitzki has an outplayed touch to his shot.
Charmine being outplayed.

[ambchang]

do you guys no head to head record with shaq vs david
david owned shaq with a good back
Does that mean Shaq is soft?
Speaking of which, tough guy Shaq can't play games with an ingrown toe nail, oh, he's so tough.

[monosylab1k]

Maybe it was one of the years I missed watching the NBA, when did he lead the league in rebounds? Because I never even recalled Dirk finishing in the top 5. And please don't compare a guy who has never averaged over 10 rpg to Robinson when it comes to rebounding.
I had a very hard time finding another soft player in this list (http://basketball-reference.com/leaders/TRB_year.html), please help me out.


I would imagine people gets fouled before they go to the line.
I found another list (http://basketball-reference.com/leaders/FTA_year.html), and I also couldn't find too many soft players there.


Dunking pretty = lots of dunks?
Again, could you let me know which year Miner lead the league in dunks per game, and what year Robinson won the dunk contest? Man, I really need to catch up with my NBA history lessons.



It was when Shaq was in LA, it really isn't that hard to find out which year Shaq was held to 22.5 ppg, and regardless of WHO was backing Robinson up, it doesn't change the fact that Robinson was guarding Shaq as the primary defender, in many cases 1-1 with a floating particle in his back.


And that brings the original question of why Ewing wasn't considered soft.
This post also let me into a new english word "soft", meaning being outplayed.
As in:
Dirk Nowitzki has an outplayed touch to his shot.
Charmine being outplayed.

fair enough. i still think Robinson was soft. he can put up all the league leading stats in the world, he still got bent over and poled by Hakeem.

[ambchang]

fair enough. i still think Robinson was soft. he can put up all the league leading stats in the world, he still got bent over and poled by Hakeem.
Which I have no problem with, because you can think all you want.
BTW, this means that Ewing was soft too, according to you?

[DarrinS]

fair enough. i still think Robinson was soft. he can put up all the league leading stats in the world, he still got bent over and poled by Hakeem.


People can think Robinson was soft if they want. They were calling Tim soft in 2005, but his still won the finals MVP (he has two more, by the way).


To me, the epitome of soft is a 7 footer who plays offense on the perimeter while being defended by someone 5 or 6 inches shorter. That same guy gets a free pass on defense. Dirk, thou art soft.

[monosylab1k]

They were calling Tim soft in 2005, but his still won the finals MVP (he has two more, by the way).

I can't remember one instance where anybody was ever idiotic enough to call Tim Duncan soft. Not even Bill Walton is that stupid.

[phyzik]

Dwayne Wade bent Dirk over and poled him too...

[monosylab1k]

Dwayne Wade bent Dirk over and poled him too...

relevant how?

[phyzik]

relevant how?

Same relavance as David getting owned.

If your going to hold a player to a standard, do it to all players.... He can put up all the numbers he wants, last I checked Dirk has been getting owned his whole career.

does that mean Dirk is soft?

[monosylab1k]

Same relavance as David getting owned.

If your going to hold a player to a standard, do it to all players.... He can put up all the numbers he wants, last I checked Dirk has been getting owned his whole career.

does that mean Dirk is soft?

last I checked Dirk didn't go head-to-head with Wade the entire series...

there's nobody disputing Dirk's softness. The thread started off by questioning the softness of Ewing and Robinson.

sounds like ur just a pissed off Spurs fan who saw your beloved Admiral getting criticized so instead of finding a legitimate defense for him (as others have), you decided to do the "oh yeah?!?!? well YOUR GUY IS SOFT so TAKE THAT!!! NYAH NYAH!" like it meant something.

[phyzik]

last I checked Dirk didn't go head-to-head with Wade the entire series...

there's nobody disputing Dirk's softness. The thread started off by questioning the softness of Ewing and Robinson.

sounds like ur just a pissed off Spurs fan who saw your beloved Admiral getting criticized so instead of finding a legitimate defense for him (as others have), you decided to do the "oh yeah?!?!? well YOUR GUY IS SOFT so TAKE THAT!!! NYAH NYAH!" like it meant something.

no, I just find it funny how you implied Dirk wasnt soft while David was... As long as you acknowledge your opinion is for both players, thats find.

I happen to think neither one is soft.

[monosylab1k]

no, I just find it funny how you implied Dirk wasnt soft while David was... As long as you acknowledge your opinion is for both players, thats find.

I happen to think neither one is soft.

I never implied Dirk wasn't soft. I happen to think that Dirk is soft. Where'd you get that from?

[sandman]

sounds like ur just a pissed off Spurs fan who saw your beloved Admiral getting criticized so instead of finding a legitimate defense for him (as others have), you decided to do the "oh yeah?!?!? well YOUR GUY IS SOFT so TAKE THAT!!! NYAH NYAH!" like it meant something.

So far that criticism has been limited to repeated references to the '95 playoff series against the Rockets. One series hardly makes a career. I would think that if anyone could understand that, it would be Mavs fans.

[phyzik]

I never implied Dirk wasn't soft. I happen to think that Dirk is soft. Where'd you get that from?


Dirk gets lots of rebounds, are you willing to admit that he's tough?

ie.... implying Dirk is not soft by asking someone to admit he's not.

[DarrinS]

So far that criticism has been limited to repeated references to the '95 playoff series against the Rockets. One series hardly makes a career. I would think that if anyone could understand that, it would be Mavs fans.


Who could have guarded Hakeem in 1995? A 7 footer making baseline hook shots is pretty hard to defend.

As I recall, the Rockets beat the Spurs 4-2 in the Western Conf. finals before SWEEPING Shaq's Magic in the NBA finals 4-0.

[monosylab1k]

So far that criticism has been limited to repeated references to the '95 playoff series against the Rockets. One series hardly makes a career. I would think that if anyone could understand that, it would be Mavs fans.

That series was a defining moment for both Hakeem and David (a la Dirk and Wade last year). David never did anything to change that until Duncan came along. Say whatever you want about how shitty his team was. He showed that he could be bullied and shoved around and that he'd just take it. It didn't change until he had a guy come along and take over as leader of the team.

[monosylab1k]

ie.... implying Dirk is not soft by asking someone to admit he's not.

Not even close. read the entire fuckin' discussion. I based that question on the belief that Dirk IS soft. I asked if he was willing to admit that Dirk wasn't soft SIMPLY BECAUSE HE GETS ALOT OF REBOUNDS. never did i say Dirk wasn't soft....just that stating "David Robinson got alot of rebounds, therefore David Robinson isn't soft" wasn't sound reasoning in my mind, because nobody in their right mind would say "Dirk gets alot of rebounds, therefore Dirk isn't soft".

[ambchang]

That series was a defining moment for both Hakeem and David (a la Dirk and Wade last year). David never did anything to change that until Duncan came along. Say whatever you want about how shitty his team was. He showed that he could be bullied and shoved around and that he'd just take it. It didn't change until he had a guy come along and take over as leader of the team.
I can never understand why Robinson losing the 95 series = him being soft. Robinson never had the team to take to the promised land. Taking on an immense amount of responsibilities and hauling the likes of Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson and JR Reid to the playoffs only set up unrealistic expectations that he can take that crap of a team to the top.
Robinson, by himself, is worth a bunch of wins in his prime (35+ his rookie year, but Strickland and Cummings joined as well, a -39 when he got hurt in 96, but so did Elliott and Chuck Person.) in the regular season. When they were in the playoffs, teams realized, “Hey, non of the other Spurs can score, even when wide open, I just have to collapse on Robinson to destroy their whole offense” after watching some tapes of the Spurs. It was that simple.
You close out on Hakeem and Smith, Maxwell, Cassell, Horry, Elie and Drexler will kill you on the outside, you close out on Shaq and Penny, Scott, Anderson will kill you with 3pters, you close out on Ewing and Starks, and Harper will kill you. Who does Robinson have? Elliott with a bad kidney, and that’s it. It is much more of FOs fault as anybody. I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the early 90s when the Spurs were supposed to get an outside shooter to complement Robinson on offense, which never happened. It was such an obvious thing that all the announcers were talking about it every game I watch the Spurs, it was THAT obvious, EVERYBODY knows that you only have to collapse on Robinson and you can stop them.
I tend to agree that Robinson was out played in the 95 series, even though there were many other factors in play and it’s naïve to strictly look at numbers and ignore the fact that Robinson was doubled/tripled throughout the whole series (and that was the days of illegal defense, the Spurs should have shot at least 5 FTs on illegal D, if not on every trip on offense in that series), but to label him as soft because of it was hardly accurate or objective.
Also, Robinson was labeled soft before that series, because he was good with math, science, enjoys family time, and don’t cuss people out. In other words, I tend to believe that it was a largely ignorant and intellectual inferior group of macho man who first labeled Robinson soft because he was different. It’s just a form of discrimination against people who are different from you.

[phyzik]

That series was a defining moment for both Hakeem and David (a la Dirk and Wade last year). David never did anything to change that until Duncan came along. Say whatever you want about how shitty his team was. He showed that he could be bullied and shoved around and that he'd just take it. It didn't change until he had a guy come along and take over as leader of the team.


I read the entire fucking discussion asshole, quit being such a fucking douche. I'm not the one turning this into a fucking pissing contest, you are.... I simply mis-interprited what your intentions where with the comment, fucking blow me asswipe.

[sandman]

That series was a defining moment for both Hakeem and David (a la Dirk and Wade last year). David never did anything to change that until Duncan came along. Say whatever you want about how shitty his team was. He showed that he could be bullied and shoved around and that he'd just take it. It didn't change until he had a guy come along and take over as leader of the team.

Interesting that you compare the defining moments of Hakeem/DRob in the '95 series with Dirk/Wade last year. Hakeem owned DRob and made him his bitch, but Wade had all the refs on his johnson and stole the series from Dirk. Nope, don't see any homerism in that analogy. Unless you are saying that Dirk will never do anything until a Duncan-like player comes to the Mavs.

[monosylab1k]

I read the entire fucking discussion asshole, quit being such a fucking douche. I'm not the one turning this into a fucking pissing contest, you are.... I simply mis-interprited what your intentions where with the comment, fucking blow me asswipe.

LOL wow you really are a pissypants Spurs fan. Make some negative comments about the Admiral and this happens. You're the one that misinterpreted shit, so how bout not posting garbage unless you know what the hell's going on, mkay?

[monosylab1k]

but Wade had all the refs on his johnson and stole the series from Dirk. Nope, don't see any homerism in that analogy.

Note once where I said anything along those lines here. Do you believe this to be the case? Cuz I certainly don't.

I remember Dirk taking a pop in the mouth and never attacking the basket again. I compared Dirk/Wade to DRob/Hakeem because both series' had one superstar rising to the occasion and dominating, while the other one wilted under pressure and allowed himself to get manhandled with no rebuttal.

Dirk may be able to change his legacy, but who knows. He may need a Tim Duncan-type player to come along and take the lead while he plays second fiddle. We'll see.

[phyzik]

LOL wow you really are a pissypants Spurs fan. Make some negative comments about the Admiral and this happens. You're the one that misinterpreted shit, so how bout not posting garbage unless you know what the hell's going on, mkay?

Exactly asshole, thats why we had the discussion about dirk to begin with. Your the one that started the name calling, I didnt.... dont post shit like "read the entire fuckin' thread" without knowing shit.

[monosylab1k]

Exactly asshole, thats why we had the discussion about dirk to begin with. Your the one that started the name calling, I didnt.... dont post shit like "read the entire fuckin' thread" without knowing shit.

LOL so i'm supposed to be nice about you trying to post irrelevant shit simply because you have no reading comprehension skills? Fuck off pal...

EDIT: Nevermind, I apologize. I shouldn't make fun of the mentally handicapped....so sorry about all that.

[sandman]

Note once where I said anything along those lines here. Do you believe this to be the case? Cuz I certainly don't.

I remember Dirk taking a pop in the mouth and never attacking the basket again. I compared Dirk/Wade to DRob/Hakeem because both series' had one superstar rising to the occasion and dominating, while the other one wilted under pressure and allowed himself to get manhandled with no rebuttal.

Dirk may be able to change his legacy, but who knows. He may need a Tim Duncan-type player to come along and take the lead while he plays second fiddle. We'll see.

How editorial of you to not quote the last sentence of my post, which asks a clarifying question in the event that I misinterpreted your post. Of course, you spend the rest of your post answering my clarifying question, but I guess you had to set the straw man up first.

btw, I appreciate your honesty in your comparison. Maybe Dirk will get there one day, but right now he is not.

[mardigan]

That series was a defining moment for both Hakeem and David (a la Dirk and Wade last year). David never did anything to change that until Duncan came along. Say whatever you want about how shitty his team was. He showed that he could be bullied and shoved around and that he'd just take it. It didn't change until he had a guy come along and take over as leader of the team.
Actually, he never got bullied or shoved around. The only guy that really did that was Shaq, and he did that to everyone. Hakeem never bullied anyone, and I think most people know that. He played Malone as tough and physical as one can, so where do you get his being soft, because you havent given one example other than saying he was soft because Hakeem owned him in that series. Hakeem owned a lot of centers in their title runs, including Shaq. And, by the way, Shaq never won till he had Kobe, does that make Shaq soft?

[ggoose25]

step off my nigga big beast. that gorilla looking mothafucka tear your limbs off and beat you with them

[LAKERS4LIFE]

I can never understand why Robinson losing the 95 series = him being soft. Robinson never had the team to take to the promised land. Taking on an immense amount of responsibilities and hauling the likes of Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson and JR Reid to the playoffs only set up unrealistic expectations that he can take that crap of a team to the top.
Robinson, by himself, is worth a bunch of wins in his prime (35+ his rookie year, but Strickland and Cummings joined as well, a -39 when he got hurt in 96, but so did Elliott and Chuck Person.) in the regular season. When they were in the playoffs, teams realized, “Hey, non of the other Spurs can score, even when wide open, I just have to collapse on Robinson to destroy their whole offense” after watching some tapes of the Spurs. It was that simple.
You close out on Hakeem and Smith, Maxwell, Cassell, Horry, Elie and Drexler will kill you on the outside, you close out on Shaq and Penny, Scott, Anderson will kill you with 3pters, you close out on Ewing and Starks, and Harper will kill you. Who does Robinson have? Elliott with a bad kidney, and that’s it. It is much more of FOs fault as anybody. I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the early 90s when the Spurs were supposed to get an outside shooter to complement Robinson on offense, which never happened. It was such an obvious thing that all the announcers were talking about it every game I watch the Spurs, it was THAT obvious, EVERYBODY knows that you only have to collapse on Robinson and you can stop them.
I tend to agree that Robinson was out played in the 95 series, even though there were many other factors in play and it’s naïve to strictly look at numbers and ignore the fact that Robinson was doubled/tripled throughout the whole series (and that was the days of illegal defense, the Spurs should have shot at least 5 FTs on illegal D, if not on every trip on offense in that series), but to label him as soft because of it was hardly accurate or objective.
Also, Robinson was labeled soft before that series, because he was good with math, science, enjoys family time, and don’t cuss people out. In other words, I tend to believe that it was a largely ignorant and intellectual inferior group of macho man who first labeled Robinson soft because he was different. It’s just a form of discrimination against people who are different from you.



David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!

[mardigan]

David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!
What a waste of a post

[cornbread]

I can't remember one instance where anybody was ever idiotic enough to call Tim Duncan soft. Not even Bill Walton is that stupid.
Mono, allow me to introduce you to LAKERS4LIFE.


Timmy = Soft

[LAKERS4LIFE]

http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/maloneelbowsrobinson.jpg
S O F T !!!!
http://www.fredhayes.com/photogallery/Karl%20Malone%20and%20Tim%20Duncan.jpg

[mardigan]

Soft is throwing elbows at Euros and Ashton Kutcher look-a-like's

[nsrammstein]

Some spurs fans and mavs fans amaze me with their level of stupidity. Dirk, Ewing, and Robinson are not soft. The Malone & Stockton Jazz lost twice to the Bulls were they soft? I don't think so.

[Louae]

Good for him. He was still soft. Since when does blocking a shot make you "physical"? How physical was Mark Eaton?

A man taking corison shots in the back to relieve back pain and then going out to guard Shaq is not someone whose soft.

He was called soft for all the wrong reasons. Drob was one of the toughest guys in the league. Beating your chest and yelling like an mindless animal gets nowhere with me.

[DarrinS]

David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!


Spurs are soft.


But these guys are hard.
http://static.flickr.com/15/68325384_478f974345.jpg

[DarrinS]

"Damn, Kobe, save it for Colorado."
http://media.mnginteractive.com/media/paper200/lakers320_122304.jpg

[DarrinS]

The Lakers appear to be a close-knit group.

http://i1.tinypic.com/wula2w.jpg

[bobbyjoe]

I can never understand why Robinson losing the 95 series = him being soft. Robinson never had the team to take to the promised land. Taking on an immense amount of responsibilities and hauling the likes of Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson and JR Reid to the playoffs only set up unrealistic expectations that he can take that crap of a team to the top.
Robinson, by himself, is worth a bunch of wins in his prime (35+ his rookie year, but Strickland and Cummings joined as well, a -39 when he got hurt in 96, but so did Elliott and Chuck Person.) in the regular season. When they were in the playoffs, teams realized, “Hey, non of the other Spurs can score, even when wide open, I just have to collapse on Robinson to destroy their whole offense” after watching some tapes of the Spurs. It was that simple.
You close out on Hakeem and Smith, Maxwell, Cassell, Horry, Elie and Drexler will kill you on the outside, you close out on Shaq and Penny, Scott, Anderson will kill you with 3pters, you close out on Ewing and Starks, and Harper will kill you. Who does Robinson have? Elliott with a bad kidney, and that’s it. It is much more of FOs fault as anybody. I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the early 90s when the Spurs were supposed to get an outside shooter to complement Robinson on offense, which never happened. It was such an obvious thing that all the announcers were talking about it every game I watch the Spurs, it was THAT obvious, EVERYBODY knows that you only have to collapse on Robinson and you can stop them.
I tend to agree that Robinson was out played in the 95 series, even though there were many other factors in play and it’s naïve to strictly look at numbers and ignore the fact that Robinson was doubled/tripled throughout the whole series (and that was the days of illegal defense, the Spurs should have shot at least 5 FTs on illegal D, if not on every trip on offense in that series), but to label him as soft because of it was hardly accurate or objective.
Also, Robinson was labeled soft before that series, because he was good with math, science, enjoys family time, and don’t cuss people out. In other words, I tend to believe that it was a largely ignorant and intellectual inferior group of macho man who first labeled Robinson soft because he was different. It’s just a form of discrimination against people who are different from you.

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a competitive conference.

[LAKERS4LIFE]

http://starophileimages.free.fr/wallpapers/tony_parker_002.jpg

S O F T !!!

[LAKERS4LIFE]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/slideshows/show_620/SPURS-PISTONS-G7-1.jpg

JOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mardigan]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s79/sethhoward/kobe_bryant.jpg
This one speaks for itself

[LAKERS4LIFE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's my ACE BON COOON!!!!!!!!!!!

[LongBall]

The Lakers appear to be a close-knit group.

http://i1.tinypic.com/wula2w.jpg
Damn gay Lakers

[ponky]

the pics on this page are hilarious...and the *JOTOS* statement made me laugh

[ambchang]

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a competitive conference.
I will list the stats out in FG%/3pt%/FT%
Chuck Person
Chuck Person played with the Spurs for 3 season, 95, 96 and 98.
In 95:
RS: 10.8 ppg, on 42.3/38.7 / 64.7
PO: 5 ppg on 35/29/73

In 96:
RS: 10.9 ppg on 43.7/41/64.4
PO: 12.1 ppg on 53/53/82

In 98:
RS: 6.7 ppg on 35.9 /34.4 / 75.7
PO: 5.8 on 34/35/100

Oh man, what a shooter, he shot 35 or less in 2 out of the 3 playoffs, and never more than 44% in the regular season.

Dale Ellis
In 93:
In the playoffs that year, Ellis averaged 12.5 ppg, on 45% FG, 31% 3pt, 81 FT% vs. 16.7 ppg on 50%, 40% and 80% in the regular season. I am sure you can somehow attribute him not nailing outside shots to Robinson choking when Robinson was shooting 11 FTA in the playoffs, vs. 9.3 in the regular season, showing he is being hacked more often.
94, same story.
Reg: 15.2 ppg on 49, 39 and 78.
PO: 10.5 ppg on 40, 29 and 60.

Vinny Del Negro
All you have to know is that he didn’t even get regular time with the late 80’s Kings. But since you asked:
He played for the Spurs for 6 seasons, 93 to 98.
In those years:
93
RS: 9.7 on 50.7/25/85.6
PO: 5 on 45/22/100

94
RS: 7.4 on 48.7/34.9/82.4
PO: 7.3 on 44/50/60

95
RS: 10 on 48.6/40.7/79
PO: 8.7 on 43/45/83

96
RS: 12.5 on 49.7/38/83.2
PO: 14.3 on 46/59/68

97
RS: 14.5 on 46.7/31.4/86.8
PO: N/A

98
RS: 12.3 on 44.1/43.6/79.6
PO: 10.7 on 48/20/94

I am not going in to Sean Elliott because I did acknowledge him being a shooter. But then again, you would obviously believe that

Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Kobe + Rick Fox + Horry + Fisher
Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Kenny Smith + Maxwell + Cassell + Horry
Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Nick Anderson + pre-injury Penny + Dennis Scott

[Louae]

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Chuck Person could definately shoot. He was one guy who still had something left in the tank. Unfortunately, he wasn't with the Spurs for very long.

Dale Ellis was a very good shooter. Unfortunately, he wasn't very effective once you closed out on him. I always remembered how hard it was to get him open for a shot. You stay with Ellis or rotate to him and he'd never get a clean look.

Vinny Del Negro would never fuckin' shoot. I hated him for that very reason. I can't tell you how many times he'd pass up shots. Brent Barry reminded me of Vinny Del Negro before this year.

And Sean Elliott was notorious for disappearing in the playoffs. His three point range was very similiar to what Bruce Bowen offers. Bruce Bowen was Sean Elliott minus the offensive game.

But I guarantee you, if David Robinson had anything like Manu Ginobilli or Tony Parker with him, he'd have won a couple of championships before Tim Duncan.

In fact, I really wish Terry Cummings wouldn't have torn out his knee. I really wish Willie Anderson wouldn't have needed steel rods in his legs. I really wish Rod Strickland wouldn't have broken his hand and gotten in trouble causing the FO to think he was too much of a problem to resign him. If that core would've stayed together, I honestly believed that they could've won a championship. But that's my opinion. It's not reality and never will be.


Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overstate Avery Johnson's ability. His greatest attribute was his leadership. You want to see Avery Johnson? He's Jauqcue Vauhn. And to be quite honest. Vauhn's jumper is better than Avery Johnson's jumper. Their ability to drive and finish are about the same in my opinion.


You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

You think so? I can name who played with Hakeem off the top of my head.
I can also name who played with Ewing off the top of my head and I never followed the Knicks. Why? B/c those guys performed in the playoffs. Anyone who isn't a spurs fan wouldn't be able to name who played with David Robinson those years b/c those guys never performed in the playoffs. Here's a little history on the Spurs with David Robinson before Timmy D.

89 Season: (lost in Semis to Portland (went to Finals))
Starters: Robinson, Cummings, Strickland, Anderson, Elliott
Top Reserves: Brickowski, Wingate

90 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Golden State)
Starters: Robinson, Cummings, Strickland, Anderson, Elliott
Top Reserves: Paul Pressey, David Wingate

91 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Phoenix)
Robinson didn't play in the playoffs due to injury.

92 Season: (lost in Semis to Suns (went to Finals))
Starters: Robinson, Dale Ellis, Elliott, J.R. Reid, Avery Johnson
Top Reserves: Willie Anderson, J.R. Ried, Terry Cummings

93 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Utah (lost to Rockets in WCFs))
Starters: Robinson, Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, Negele Knight, Dennis Rodman
Top Reserves: Vinny Del Negro, Terry Cummings, J.R. Ried,

94 Season: (lost in WCF to Houston (NBA champion))
Starters: Robinson, Elliott, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Dennis Rodman
Top Reserves: Chuck Person, Doc Rivers, Willie Anderson, Terry Cummings

95 Season: (lost in Semis to Utah (lost to Sonis in WCFs))
Starters: Robinson, Elliott, Del Negro, Johnson, Person
Top Reserves: Will Perdue, Charles Smith, Cory Alexander

96 Season: Robinson, Elliott out for season

And that's it in a nutshell. Robinson had Larry Brown, Jerry Tarkanian, John Lucas, Bob Bass, Bob Hill and finally Greg Popovich before Timmy D came on the scene. He had a lot to overcome. These are not excuses, but reasons. David really gets a bad rap due to his team's playoff failures.


Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a competitive conference.

There's a difference between playing a different team every other night with 60% of the teams being a non-playoff quality opponent & playing the same playoff quality opponent in a series every other night. After the first game, the other team's ability to execute the gameplan is many levels higher than what the same team could do in the regular season.

[ambchang]

Didn’t have time to answer the other questions, but here is the followup.

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?
See above.


Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).
Avery Johnson’s ability to get to the basket gave him a career high 13.4ppg with 3.6 FTAs, way to drive to the basket. But that doesn’t really matter, because he could only make 2.5 of those 3.6 attempts. That’s 69%. Guess what also happened that year? Robinson won the MVP by dragging that shit of a team to 62 wins.


You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Let us look at how the teams for the 4 big men and their teammates from 1990 to 1996 (Rookie year to the last year before Robinson’s injury)
I will list it as # of all star teammates/regular season record/playoffs
1990:
Robinson – 0/56-26/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/41-41/1st round
Ewing – 0/45-37/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1991:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/52-30/1st round
Ewing – 0/39-43/1st round
Shaq – N/A

1992:
Robinson – 0/47-35/1st round (Robinson hurt)
Hakeem – 1/42-40/missed playoffs
Ewing – 0/51-31/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1993:
Robinson – 1/49-33/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/55-27/WCSF
Ewing – 0/60-22/ECF
Shaq – 0/41-41/missed playoffs

1994:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/58-24/Champions
Ewing – 2/57-25/Finals
Shaq – 0/50-32/1st round

1995:
Robinson – 0/62-20/WCF
Hakeem – 0/47-35/Champions
Ewing – 0/55-27/ECSF
Shaq – 1/57-25/Finals

1996:
Robinson – 1/59-23/WCSF
Hakeem – 1/48-34/WCSF
Ewing – 0/47-35/ECSF
Shaq – 1/60-22/ECF

To summarize, in the two years Robinson had an all-star teammate, his team went to the WCSF.
In the two years Hakeem had an allstar teammate, he lost in the WCSF, and missed the playoffs.
In the one year Ewing had 2 all-star teammates, his team went to the Finals.
In the 2 years Shaq had an all-star teammate (all-nba teammer Penny), his team lost in the finals and the ECF.


Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a competitive conference.
Of course they don’t, but they do have much more time to prepare for a game plan in the playoffs. So you have 1 day to prepare for a team, what do you do? You send scouting reports out to the players, perhaps watch some tape, and practice.
You have two weeks? You design an offense and defense that exploits your opponent’s weakness.

[mqywaaah]

Easy. Because gorillas arent considered soft. End of discussion. Next thread!

[bobbyjoe]

Didn’t have time to answer the other questions, but here is the followup.

See above.


Avery Johnson’s ability to get to the basket gave him a career high 13.4ppg with 3.6 FTAs, way to drive to the basket. But that doesn’t really matter, because he could only make 2.5 of those 3.6 attempts. That’s 69%. Guess what also happened that year? Robinson won the MVP by dragging that shit of a team to 62 wins.



Let us look at how the teams for the 4 big men and their teammates from 1990 to 1996 (Rookie year to the last year before Robinson’s injury)
I will list it as # of all star teammates/regular season record/playoffs
1990:
Robinson – 0/56-26/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/41-41/1st round
Ewing – 0/45-37/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1991:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/52-30/1st round
Ewing – 0/39-43/1st round
Shaq – N/A

1992:
Robinson – 0/47-35/1st round (Robinson hurt)
Hakeem – 1/42-40/missed playoffs
Ewing – 0/51-31/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1993:
Robinson – 1/49-33/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/55-27/WCSF
Ewing – 0/60-22/ECF
Shaq – 0/41-41/missed playoffs

1994:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/58-24/Champions
Ewing – 2/57-25/Finals
Shaq – 0/50-32/1st round

1995:
Robinson – 0/62-20/WCF
Hakeem – 0/47-35/Champions
Ewing – 0/55-27/ECSF
Shaq – 1/57-25/Finals

1996:
Robinson – 1/59-23/WCSF
Hakeem – 1/48-34/WCSF
Ewing – 0/47-35/ECSF
Shaq – 1/60-22/ECF

To summarize, in the two years Robinson had an all-star teammate, his team went to the WCSF.
In the two years Hakeem had an allstar teammate, he lost in the WCSF, and missed the playoffs.
In the one year Ewing had 2 all-star teammates, his team went to the Finals.
In the 2 years Shaq had an all-star teammate (all-nba teammer Penny), his team lost in the finals and the ECF.


Of course they don’t, but they do have much more time to prepare for a game plan in the playoffs. So you have 1 day to prepare for a team, what do you do? You send scouting reports out to the players, perhaps watch some tape, and practice.
You have two weeks? You design an offense and defense that exploits your opponent’s weakness.

Are you even reading what you are posting?

Hakeem won 2 titles in 94 and 95 without an all star alongside him. This helps your argument?!

It all boils down to this: If you think David Robinson was a better Center than Shaq or Hakeem, you may as well call Robinson the best basketball player ever or the best pro athlete in the history of time, because each statement is as utterly ludicrous.

Robinson can not hold a candle to those 2 or Kareem, Wilt, etc. THere's a clear cut distinction between him and the truly elite centers of all time. Any all time Center list shows this. None have Robinson in the top 7 or 8.

[SRJ]

What was Clyde Drexler?

[samikeyp]

Robinson can not hold a candle to those 2 or Kareem, Wilt, etc. THere's a clear cut distinction between him and the truly elite centers of all time. Any all time Center list shows this. None have Robinson in the top 7 or 8.

This one does...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters


I don't think David is a top 5 all-time center but people here are talking as if he was some scrub. I understand there is a lot of hate toward him solely because he was a Spur but to act as if he did nothing in his career is just ignorant. Top 5? No. Top 10? definetly. He must have done something right....he was named on the top 50 all time and is headed for the Hall of Fame. Something else I imagine the haters will have issue with.

[dbreiden83080]

I live in NY so trust me when i tell you during Ewings heyday he was called SOFT along with many other things by both the fans and the media. When Ewing came out of school he was supposed to be better than Jordan and Hakeem. He ended up falling more into the Barkley and Malone category. I don't think the NY fans ever forgave him for not being this almighty immortal player than he was billed as. It is a lot like what A-Rod is going through with the Yanks right now. He is great but the fans want him to be everything to everyone, it is never enough.

[ambchang]

Are you even reading what you are posting?

Hakeem won 2 titles in 94 and 95 without an all star alongside him. This helps your argument?!

It all boils down to this: If you think David Robinson was a better Center than Shaq or Hakeem, you may as well call Robinson the best basketball player ever or the best pro athlete in the history of time, because each statement is as utterly ludicrous.

Robinson can not hold a candle to those 2 or Kareem, Wilt, etc. THere's a clear cut distinction between him and the truly elite centers of all time. Any all time Center list shows this. None have Robinson in the top 7 or 8.
I am pretty sure you weren't reading what I was posting, show me where I said Robinson > Hakeem or Shaq. In fact, I think Hakeem > Robinson.
What I wanted to show is that a team's makeup has much more to do with the overall success than the presence of one single dominant player. The list also showed that without an All-Star teammate, Robinson has NEVER missed the playoffs, something Hakeem or Shaq cannot claim.
You can argue until your face turns blue, but the simple fact is that the Spurs didn't underachieve in the playoffs, they simple overachieved in the regular season.
A team with Robinson, Terry Cummings and Rod Strickland did very well in the playoffs. A team with Robinson, Sean Elliott and Rodman went to the WCF and lost in 6 games. A team with Robinson, Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson, JR Reid, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis and Antoine Carr could even go to the second round is a semi-miracle, this team shouldn't even make the playoffs with Jerry Tarkanian and John Lucas at the helm. Speaking of which, what has Lucas and Tark done since they left the Spurs? And Lucas was the best coach outside of Larry Brown and Pop Robinson EVER had.
To call Robinson soft because the FO sucked is no way to appreciate a player to gave his all to his team every single time he stepped on the court.