Protein.

[ZipSpan]

What's the difference between soy protein and whey protein? Is one of them better for you?

[Marklar MM]

The debate rages on and on in online chat rooms, in gyms and in health food stores - which is better? Soy Protein or Whey Protein. Well, the truth is, they're each good in their own way. Of course, we all know that athletes and others who are working out more, simply need more protein. Below, we'll list the advantages of each type and let you make up your own mind about which works for what you need it for.

Soy Protein (Try Top of the World Pro Formula Soy Protein Powder)

* The FDA has approved the following statement: Diets low in saturated fat and cholesterol that include 25 grams of soy protein a day may reduce the risk of heart disease.
* Soy protein has been found to be higher in non-essential amino acids than most animal-derived proteins, and it may also promote weight loss, according to a study in Medical Hypotheses
* A study investigating isolated soy protein indicated that athletes using soy protein fared better in performance. In the study, which appeared in the Revue Roumaine de Physiologie (29, 3-4:63-70, 1992), researchers from the Sports Medicine Institute in Romania reported that in 66 Olympic endurance athletes, soy protein increased lean body mass, increased strength indexes and decreased fatigue after training sessions.
* It contains more protein by weight than beef, fish or chicken, and contains less fat (especially saturated fat).
* Other studies show that soy protein isolate has the ability to effectively lower LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood, improve kidney functions, and the consumption of 25-50 grams of soy protein daily may indeed enhance production of thyroid stimulation hormones that regulate the metabolic rate (thereby making it easier for us to lose both body weight and fat).

Whey Protein (Try Top of the World Pro Formula Whey 24 Protein Powder)

* Whey protein lacks no essential amino acids. As a result, it has a much higher biological value in terms of similarity to our own human protein. It needs no fortification or additive to make it complete. It is complete in its natural form.
* Whey protein given to sedentary individuals does not give significant performance benefits; however, combined with resistance training, even those who have immunosuppressive disorders can increase body cell mass, muscle mass and muscle strength, according to a study in AIDS (15, 18:2431-40, 2001).
* And in a trial appearing in the International Journal of Sports Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism (11, 3:349-64, 2001) whey-protein supplementation led to significant improvements in knee extension peak torque and lean tissue mass. "Whey protein is superior to other proteins when it comes to anabolic response," said Marcus C.C.W. Elliott, M.D., who created a muscle-conditioning and injury prevention program for the New England Patriots and is on the advisory board for Culver City, Calif.-based Cold Fusion Foods. "Whey protein has consistently been shown to stimulate the anabolic hormones after a workout."
* It mixes well and is low in fat and lactose, and has a superior amino acid profile.
* whey enhances the immune system because it raises glutathione levels. Glutathione is a powerful antioxidant that helps our immune cells stay charged to help ward off cancer, bacterial infection and viruses.
* Whey is also very high in glutamine and the branch chain amino acids L-leucine, L-valine and L-isoleucine, important aminos for repairing muscle.

[tlongII]

Soy protein is derived from soy bean product and whey protein is derived from milk product. Soy protein may be more healthy in that it may reduce cholesterol among other things. However, many body-builders prefer whey protein as they believe it is more easily digested and promotes muscle regeneration better.

[Bob Lanier]

Soy protein makes you gay.

[NorCal510]

whey all the way

protein makes your breasts grow...

[cornbread]

Soy protein makes you gay.
Pretty much.

[ZipSpan]

Thanks for all the info!

[johngateswhiteley]

...however, most lifters consume much more protein than is actually needed. keep this in mind:

1. a male athlete cannot benefit from more than 0.9 grams of protein a day, anything beyond that is wasted. and more realistically in the 0.6-0.8 range meaning a 150 male would need 90-120 grams of protein. though probably only around 105, imo

2. protein cannot be stored in the body, therefore anything over necessity is wasted

3. (cannot remember where i read this) but most males working out typically only need another 15 grams of protein a day to build as much muscle as their workouts permit

4. the typical American consumes twice the recommended amount of protein already...therefore, besides the very few that actually need supplements, everyone is wasting their money.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

...however, most lifters consume much more protein than is actually needed. keep this in mind:

1. a male athlete cannot benefit from more than 0.9 grams of protein a day, anything beyond that is wasted. and more realistically in the 0.6-0.8 range meaning a 150 male would need 90-120 grams of protein. though probably only around 105, imo

2. protein cannot be stored in the body, therefore anything over necessity is wasted

3. (cannot remember where i read this) but most males working out typically only need another 15 grams of protein a day to build as much muscle as their workouts permit

4. the typical American consumes twice the recommended amount of protein already...therefore, besides the very few that actually need supplements, everyone is wasting their money.
This is true. A lot of people don't take this in to account when they take these supplements.

[tlongII]

It's all about the steroids and HGH. That's what you need to get BIG.

[NorCal510]

...however, most lifters consume much more protein than is actually needed. keep this in mind:

1. a male athlete cannot benefit from more than 0.9 grams of protein a day, anything beyond that is wasted. and more realistically in the 0.6-0.8 range meaning a 150 male would need 90-120 grams of protein. though probably only around 105, imo

2. protein cannot be stored in the body, therefore anything over necessity is wasted

3. (cannot remember where i read this) but most males working out typically only need another 15 grams of protein a day to build as much muscle as their workouts permit

4. the typical American consumes twice the recommended amount of protein already...therefore, besides the very few that actually need supplements, everyone is wasting their money.


are u shitting me? i'm on protein mixes right now just so i can bulk up easier on workouts. so your telling me this doesnt work? i heard something about taking excessive nutrients is wasted once your body can take in no more. so as long as i drink my milk and eat some eggs/meat im good? those protein drinks taste like shit anyway...

[ALVAREZ6]

are u shitting me? i'm on protein mixes right now just so i can bulk up easier on workouts. so your telling me this doesnt work? i heard something about taking excessive nutrients is wasted once your body can take in no more. so as long as i drink my milk and eat some eggs/meat im good? those protein drinks taste like shit anyway...Protein shakes are a waste of money, they don't even help you gain weight. I've tried them for a bit, and it's no different from just eating a lot. Just eat a lot of eggs, steak, chicken...that stuff.

[E20]

Be like Rocky. 6 Raw Eggs in teh morning.

[tlongII]

I'm not sure there is no added benefit from taking supplements and/or protein shakes. I would like to see Shoog's opinion.

[mardigan]

Zipspan needs natural protien

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Protein shakes are a waste of money, they don't even help you gain weight. I've tried them for a bit, and it's no different from just eating a lot. Just eat a lot of eggs, steak, chicken...that stuff.


Adding calories to your diet will make you gain weight regardless if it comes from eggs or a protein shake.

[ShoogarBear]

4. the typical American consumes twice the recommended amount of protein already...therefore, besides the very few that actually need supplements, everyone is wasting their money.Ding, ding, ding.

Also, the quote in Marklar's post about soy protein improving kidney function is pure bullshit. I can't speak directly about some of the other points about either form of protein, but I suspect many of them are not true, either.

[ShoogarBear]

Protein shakes may be useful for people who are trying to lose weight by exercising but still want to maintain reasonable caloric intake.

The most beneficial use of them, though, is nutritional supplementation of people who are or have been ill or hospitalized for a long time.

[E20]

Depends on the protien shake itself. Most shakes have little Fat, Cholestorol or Carbs and advise you to take with water.

There are many out there that induce weight gain in order to bulk up besides creatin. Muscle Milk and Weight Gainer 1850 are a few to name, they pack a large amount of Protien with Carbs and Fats and are best taken by mixing with whole milk. WG 1850 got me to go from 140 to 165 over a summer, that and drinking 5 glasses of whole milk a day.

To gain weight and muscle mass via Protien shakes you can't just factor in Protien.

My choice personally is in order bulk up is eating Milk, Eggs, Meat, Beans, Bread or Rice, lots of water and take some vitamin pills or do it the hard way through fruits and vegetables. Workout, make a shake right after with Powder, Milk and eggs. Also, eating 4-5 times a day, not 2 or 3 big ones, with meals that give out the right porportions of Protien, Carbs and Fats that meet my requirements.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, I didn't mean take ONLY the shake, but to be used as a supplement.

[E20]

Yeah, I didn't mean take ONLY the shake, but to be used as a supplement.
I wasn't directing it to you. :lol I just wanted to add in my 11 cents to the topic.

[ObiwanGinobili]

Protein shakes are a waste of money, they don't even help you gain weight. I've tried them for a bit, and it's no different from just eating a lot. Just eat a lot of eggs, steak, chicken...that stuff.

a protien shake won;t no.
but a weight gainer or meal replacement added to a regular diet will.

regardless- more calories intook than burned ='s weight gained.

[ObiwanGinobili]

I know some people try to stay away fro mthe soy because of the unknown effects of the excess phytoestrogen.
and whey generally taste better.

I like cytosport whey concentrate as a 'just protien' shake. there's 101 servings per jug at $27 and it taste really yummy.

[johngateswhiteley]

are u shitting me? i'm on protein mixes right now just so i can bulk up easier on workouts. so your telling me this doesnt work? i heard something about taking excessive nutrients is wasted once your body can take in no more. so as long as i drink my milk and eat some eggs/meat im good? those protein drinks taste like shit anyway...

no, i am not shitting you. just eat a lot of healthy food and you should be fine.

...on a side note, i think its fairly obvious why some of the professional athletes are so big/fast...and eating more protein or intaking any legal supplements won't get you there. concentrate on doing it the right way and maintaining a healthy lifestyle. :tu

[ALVAREZ6]

I can't gain weight. I eat about 5,000 calories a day, lift 3-4 times a week, yet can't gain fuckin weight, or when I do, it doesn't stay on for long. The quicker you put on the weight the faster you lose it I guess.

[ShoogarBear]

Why are you trying to gain weight?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Try eating 2000 more calories

[ALVAREZ6]

Why are you trying to gain weight?For football.

[johngateswhiteley]

I can't gain weight. I eat about 5,000 calories a day, lift 3-4 times a week, yet can't gain fuckin weight, or when I do, it doesn't stay on for long. The quicker you put on the weight the faster you lose it I guess.

for some people it is harder than others. but you can gain weight, in fact, if i were your trainer i guarantee you would. few tips:

1. consume more liquid foods
2. eat more grain
3. wake up in the middle of the night (if you sleep 8 hours a day, wake up after 4 hours) and consume about 600-800 calories then go back to sleep

[ShoogarBear]

But I mean for what? Are you a lineman and you need the size?

You're a young guyand it sounds like you're keeping yourself in shape.Your body will start filling out on its own clock. I don't think trying to abnormally accelerate that is healthy in the long run.

[ALVAREZ6]

But I mean for what? Are you a lineman and you need the size?

You're a young guyand it sounds like you're keeping yourself in shape.Your body will start filling out on its own clock. I don't think trying to abnormally accelerate that is healthy in the long run.No, I'm a D-back and receiver, but I simply want more size. Gaining weight won't really put me out of shape, I don't think it will affect my sprinting. Weighing more in football helps a lot, it gives you a huge advantage over a person who has the same strength as you and size. People/coaches don't realize that aggression and body weight are more key than how much you can lift. Even if you're not too aggressive to begin with, having extra pounds over the dude trying to tackle you helps a lot. And aggression on the field doesn't always translate to being really strong in the weight room. There's this big line backer we have who's crazy as fuck and hits hard as hell, yet can't bench as much as me.

I don't think it's healthy in the long run either, it's really shitty for me actually, but I'll only be doing this for a few more months. This upcoming season is my senior year.

[ALVAREZ6]

for some people it is harder than others. but you can gain weight, in fact, if i were your trainer i guarantee you would. few tips:

1. consume more liquid foods
2. eat more grain
3. wake up in the middle of the night (if you sleep 8 hours a day, wake up after 4 hours) and consume about 600-800 calories then go back to sleepI try to wat a lot of carbs and protein. A lot of milkshakes and fatty shit as well.

I never get 8 hours of sleep, I probably average 6 hours of sleep, and I'm not gonna wake up in the middle of the night and do this crap. I'm always dead in school as it is. What I currently do is eat dinner, wait about 2-3 hours, then load myself with more shit, then eat before going to sleep, which is normally between 11:30-1:00 at night.

[E20]

This happend to my brother and kind of happend to me -- if you overload it on protien or food in general. You'll end up forming balls or clots of fat that are visible in areas such as your chest, stomach, butt, thighs etc. You'll end up thinking you may have cancer, that's what I did, but the Doctor said I was eating too much fatty foods or just eating too much and excess fat was forming into little clumps. It hurt when I squeezed it, I thought I had breast cancer, but I didn't. Whhhewww.

[ShoogarBear]

Alvarez, I would just keep on the cardio and strength training, eat a healthy diet, and not worry about the weight. I just think it's going to be tough for someone your age to try to put on significant pounds, and probably unhealthy if you do.

[ALVAREZ6]

Alvarez, I would just keep on the cardio and strength training, eat a healthy diet, and not worry about the weight. I just think it's going to be tough for someone your age to try to put on significant pounds, and probably unhealthy if you do.I'm not really gonna worry about the cardio til mid to late summer, that's something that can be adjusted more easily.

I've realized that my muscles can't fuckin get any bigger (without using steroids). I've gotten stronger, but not much bigger. I think giving your body excess calories from fat, carbs, protein, etc, it makes it easier to turn that into muscle. It has worked recently, the only problem though is maintaining the weight.

[johngateswhiteley]

wait, how old is Alvarez?

[E20]

I'm not really gonna worry about the cardio til mid to late summer, that's something that can be adjusted more easily.

I've realized that my muscles can't fuckin get any bigger (without using steroids). I've gotten stronger, but not much bigger. I think giving your body excess calories from fat, carbs, protein, etc, it makes it easier to turn that into muscle. It has worked recently, the only problem though is maintaining the weight.
You could always try Creatine, it packs your muscles with water making them look bigger, but studies have shown that atheletes who continue to work out eventually end up with permenant gains in muscle mass.

[ALVAREZ6]

wait, how old is Alvarez?17.5

[ALVAREZ6]

You could always try Creatine, it packs your muscles with water making them look bigger, but studies have shown that atheletes who continue to work out eventually keep on working out you end up with permenant gains in muscle mass.I've very familiar with creatine, a few kids I know use it. I'm not gonna break my wallet just to have creatine. I don't have a job anymore.

I've tried creatine once before, it really gives you some energy, that's for sure. That day, I was exhausted after a workout, my arms/chest were dead, and my friend let me try a sample of his creatine. I immediately felt no soreness at all and was able to go back in the weightroom and do the same shit again.

[ShoogarBear]

I would stay away from the creatine. It may results in more muscle mass, but I have personally seen severe kidney problems result from it.

[ALVAREZ6]

I would stay away from the creatine. It may results in more muscle mass, but I have personally seen severe kidney problems result from it.Yeah I know, I'm not messin with that shit.

[ALVAREZ6]

From what I understand, once you discontinue your use of creatine, you lose your strength and go back to almost where you were before. It's like once you start using it, you can't stop if you want the results.

[E20]

I've very familiar with creatine, a few kids I know use it. I'm not gonna break my wallet just to have creatine. I don't have a job anymore.

I've tried creatine once before, it really gives you some energy, that's for sure. That day, I was exhausted after a workout, my arms/chest were dead, and my friend let me try a sample of his creatine. I immediately felt no soreness at all and was able to go back in the weightroom and do the same shit again.
You can get powder form at GNC stores for around 25 bucks and it wil last you around 45 days. I'd perfer pills though since it's easier to intake. The loading phases and all that shit is a hassle with powder.

[ALVAREZ6]

You can get powder form at GNC stores for around 25 bucks and it wil last you around 45 days. I'd perfer pills though since it's easier to intake. The loading phases and all that shit is a hassle with powder.Yeah I hate the powder shit, I hate a thing of whey protein, that shit is nasty without a blender. I don't have a blender, so I would mix a bunch of that shit with a huge glass of milk. That crap would float and be all thick, wouldn't dissolve at all without a blender, and it almost made me puke a few times.

Also, when having that shit in that form where it's not liquid, more of a guey shit floating around, it gives you some nasty gas and diahrea.

[E20]

I would stay away from the creatine. It may results in more muscle mass, but I have personally seen severe kidney problems result from it.
That's true, but I've heard more cases where people get liver/kidney problems drinking beer/liquor or coffee.

The thing with Creatine is that after the loading phase which is about 3 weeks, you gradually decline your use, but still work out hard, if not harder than before, to the point where you barely take it anymore and stop all together.

[E20]

Also, when having that shit in that form where it's not liquid, more of a guey shit floating around, it gives you some nasty gas and diahrea.
I've had upset stomachs and aches because of that resulting in not even being able to work out, because I burp and croak. Other times I lay bombs during workouts, but the bombs give me that edge in finishing that last rep, like a booster or something.

[johngateswhiteley]

listen people! ...stop wasting your money on supplements. everyone wants a shortcut, everyone thinks there is some magic formula out there that will make you big and fast...well there isn't. at least not anything legal.

just work hard and enjoy life. believe in yourself, all other things will fall into place. btw, if you really want to be a hardcore athlete Alvarez, you just need to work really hard. i use to think, when i was in high school, that i was working hard...meh, not really. i can give you some workouts that would rape you...

[NorCal510]

IF U WAnna gain wait eat right before you go to bed.


in about 6 months, ive gained about 20 pounds. 6'1 175ish... skinny still? i can still pack on some more...

[ShoogarBear]

That's true, but I've heard more cases where people get liver/kidney problems drinking beer/liquor or coffee.10,000x more people drink liquor than use creatine, so of course there will be more problems. More people get liver problems from alcohol than heroin, too. That doesn't make heroin safe.

As for coffeee, I'd like to know where your information on kidney and liver problems from alcohol comes from.

[NorCal510]

creotin makes your penis shrink, dont take it!

[E20]

As for coffeee, I'd like to know where your information on kidney and liver problems from alcohol comes from.
Well I get all my info from the web, usually from .gov or .edu sites for insurance.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Alcohol+on+the+Kidney+and+Liver&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

That's for Alcohol. Drinking too much Coffee in general is bad, messes up sleep cycles, BP, HR and gives you Kidney stones. That's about it.

My info on Creatine comes from the web when I was lifting on a daily basis and compared supplements to see what gives me the best results, Protien, Creatine etc... I ran across these sites on Creatine and I don't have the same perception as most people I meet who see Creatine being Steriod Jr. I see it as effective if used right and won't hinder organs. These are the sites I used for researching Creatine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine
http://www.bla.net/opul/crfaq.htm
http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-creatine.html
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkm0qfxRGiYQABq1XNyoA?p=Creatine&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt

[cornbread]

I, like some of you guys, have an extremely hard time gaining weight. Since Decemeber I've gained about 10-12lbs though. I'm using a high calorie diet with 4-5 meals per day, creatine (1 month on, 1 month off), 1-2 protein shakes per day(I usually mix a banana in one of them and I count this as a meal), a multivitamin, and a lot of lifting. Over the years, I've experienced better results with this kind of supplementation.

Cost Plus Nutrition in San Antonio has some pretty impressive prices. They blow GNC out of the water in terms of affordability.

[TDMVPDPOY]

do you guys eat b4 or after a workout? any recommendation?

[ALVAREZ6]

listen people! ...stop wasting your money on supplements. everyone wants a shortcut, everyone thinks there is some magic formula out there that will make you big and fast...well there isn't. at least not anything legal.

just work hard and enjoy life. believe in yourself, all other things will fall into place. btw, if you really want to be a hardcore athlete Alvarez, you just need to work really hard. i use to think, when i was in high school, that i was working hard...meh, not really. i can give you some workouts that would rape you...Well that's basically what I've been doin, I don't used any supplements, I just eat a lot and work hard.

[ALVAREZ6]

IF U WAnna gain wait eat right before you go to bed.


in about 6 months, ive gained about 20 pounds. 6'1 175ish... skinny still? i can still pack on some more...Yeah that's what I do.



20 pounds in 6 months is a lot. It took me 2 years to gain that.

Still, 6'1" and 175 is still more on the skinny side.

[ALVAREZ6]

I just don't understand why I'm so light. I have good muscle mass but my bones are real skinny, which sucks. Naturally, I'm a small person, if I didn't lift any weights I'd be skinny as hell. Most people who try to guess my weight guess 20 pounds more than what I weigh.

[johngateswhiteley]

I just don't understand why I'm so light. I have good muscle mass but my bones are real skinny, which sucks. Naturally, I'm a small person, if I didn't lift any weights I'd be skinny as hell. Most people who try to guess my weight guess 20 pounds more than what I weigh.

some people are just puny, don't worry about it.

[ShoogarBear]

Well I get all my info from the web, usually from .gov or .edu sites for insurance.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Alcohol+on+the+Kidney+and+Liver&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

That's for Alcohol. Drinking too much Coffee in general is bad, messes up sleep cycles, BP, HR and gives you Kidney stones. That's about it.

My info on Creatine comes from the web when I was lifting on a daily basis and compared supplements to see what gives me the best results, Protien, Creatine etc... I ran across these sites on Creatine and I don't have the same perception as most people I meet who see Creatine being Steriod Jr. I see it as effective if used right and won't hinder organs. These are the sites I used for researching Creatine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine
http://www.bla.net/opul/crfaq.htm
http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-creatine.html
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkm0qfxRGiYQABq1XNyoA?p=Creatine&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrtWell, no offense, but it seems that you are just selectively picking and choosing what you want to believe, regardless of the actual medical evidence. I just hope your health doesn't suffer for it.

[boutons_]

6'1" and 175 is a BMI of 23, a healthy number, where 70% of grotesquely fat USA is 25+ (overweight) or 30+ (obese).

Heavier means sicker, statistically inclined to many diseases and shortened life.

http://www.halls.md/body-mass-index/av.htm

[ObiwanGinobili]

BMI is bullshit in referance to athletes and anyone with a muscular build. it doesn't take into account body fat% at all, and can even be wrong with old and sickly people too. a BMI may be healthy for a 35 yr old person who is 5'7 - but that same person at age 70 would actually be unhealthy and overweight due to muscle loss with age.
On the same token - muscles. Muscles weigh more than fat, alot more. You can pack alot more muscle weight into half as much space as a ton of fat weight. i've seen Big huge built up guys without a lick of bodyfat get put on weight loss diets by the Army and Navy because they had a BMI of 29 or 30 - considered overweight and/or obese depending on height.
My husband is 5'4.5 and weighs 168 right now. Thats a BMI of about 29. "overweight".
Really? Overweight? There is not an inch of spare flub to pinch anywhere on his body. His bodyfat is hovering around 10-12%.
but acording to the BMI - he's overweight and unhealthy.

[E20]

Well, no offense, but it seems that you are just selectively picking and choosing what you want to believe, regardless of the actual medical evidence. I just hope your health doesn't suffer for it.
These are quotes from the experts:

There is less concern today than there used to be about possible kidney damage from creatine, although there are reports of kidney damage, such as interstitial nephritis. Patients with kidney disease should avoid use of this supplement. Similarly, liver function may be altered, and caution is advised in those with underlying liver disease.


Some concern has been raised regarding the effects of creatine supplementation on kidney function. The body seems to be able to dispose of the extra creatine without any problem (Poortmans et al., 1997). The extra creatine is eliminated mainly in the urine as creatine, with small amounts broken down and excreted as creatinine or urea. No study has shown that creatine supplementation results in clinically significant increases in liver damage or impaired liver function.

Does creatine supplementation have undiscovered long-term side effects? Trials lasting more than a year have not been performed, but creatine has been used as a nutritional supplement for over 10 years. Although long-term side effects cannot discounted, no significant short-term side effects other than weight gain have been reported. In addition, I am not aware of any significant medical complications that have been linked to creatine supplementation. Furthermore, creatine and phosphocreatine have been used medically to reduce muscle wasting after surgery and to improve heart function and exercise capacity in people with ischemic heart disease (Pauletto & Strumia, 1996; Gordon et al., 1995).

Creatine is also a natural substance occuring in all animals as well. You don't have to take Creatine, as you can get it from most meats, but in small amounts.

And I don't really take Creatine, I did for a week, and I said didn't like the large amount of dosage, it made me feel bloated, but advice for people who think they're going to take it, don't believe all the hype that it's the next best alternative for drugs/steriods and it is bad. Do some research and ask an MD or certified Sports Trainer about it.

[ShoogarBear]

:lol

Who are these "experts"? I don't see any attribution for those quotes.

I will say that whoever said "there is less concern today than there used to be about possible kidney damage from creatine" is talking out of his ass.

Furthermore the claimed benefits in heart function in your last quote are not conclusive and no self-respecting cardiologist would use it for this purpose until better studies proving it's effectiveness have been performed.

[tlongII]

It's easy to see why so many young people turn to steroids and HGH when reading Alvarez's posts. I think probably at least 80% of baseball and football players are using it. It's not fair, but how can you compete if you don't?

[leemajors]

I just don't understand why I'm so light. I have good muscle mass but my bones are real skinny, which sucks. Naturally, I'm a small person, if I didn't lift any weights I'd be skinny as hell. Most people who try to guess my weight guess 20 pounds more than what I weigh.

drink more beer, that'll do it easy.

[boutons_]

"BMI is bullshit in referance to athletes and anyone with a muscular build."

.... which means it's NOT bullshit for 98% of people.

IIRC, Arnold is 6'1" and was 240 at his peak competitive form, for a BMI of 31.7, ie, "obese". But Arnold and heavily muscled people 3+ std deviatons away from the mean are not the target for BMI application. So trashing BMI because it doesn't apply where it's not intended to apply is the real bullshit here.

BMI is useful tool for nearly everybody, as is "ideal weight" as defined by various groups:

http://www.halls.md/ideal-weight/body.htm

In every situation I can recall where I was discussing BMI with a woman, she said BMI didn't apply to her (aka, my BMI says I'm fat/obese) because she was different, had big bones, etc, when really she was just plainly fat or obese and denying the tale told by her BMI. :lol

A good rule I read a couple weeks ago about what not to eat is that if it didn't exist 10,000 years ago, don't put it in your mouth.

[ObiwanGinobili]

"BMI is bullshit in referance to athletes and anyone with a muscular build."

.... which means it's NOT bullshit for 98% of people.
the main peopel lookin for advice in this thread are either muscular, athletic or are looking to become both/either.


In every situation I can recall where I was discussing BMI with a woman, she said BMI didn't apply to her (aka, my BMI says I'm fat/obese) because she was different, had big bones, etc, when really she was just plainly fat or obese and denying the tale told by her BMI. :lol


I guess you are including this tid bit in your post because I am a woman?
My BMI is 21. Thanks for your concern. :toast

[Bob Lanier]

More people get liver problems from alcohol than heroin, too. That doesn't make heroin safe.
Heroin is perfectly safe.

[NorCal510]

im muscular according to that BMI

it also says i have a large penis compared to the posters on spurstalk

[E20]

:lol

Who are these "experts"? I don't see any attribution for those quotes.

I will say that whoever said "there is less concern today than there used to be about possible kidney damage from creatine" is talking out of his ass.

Furthermore the claimed benefits in heart function in your last quote are not conclusive and no self-respecting cardiologist would use it for this purpose until better studies proving it's effectiveness have been performed.
There are from the links I gave you in one of my posts back, they are all cited with sources, check them out if you want. There is tons of evidence that I can find over the net done by people in the field that puts the stereotypes and urban legends to rest about Creatine. The heart thing came from: Pauletto & Strumia, 1996; Gordon et al., 1995 and even on a .GOV site (meaning Goverment agency) it talks about the effects that Creatine give certain types of disorders etc. and one of them was about the heart.

I mean our bodies make Creatine, so how can it be that bad for us? We eat Creatine when we eat meat, creatine related kindey or liver disorders are so small and unnoticable that no one pays any attention to it because it rarely happens; furthermore only morons/impatient people overdose on creatine, there is steps on how you should take it. Also, it sounds like you're leaning towards alcohol being healthier than Creatine and it's not.

[cornbread]

There was an article in the Express News about BMI a few months back. According to BMI scale Tim Duncan is morbidly obese.

[ShoogarBear]

There are from the links I gave you in one of my posts back, they are all cited with sources, check them out if you want. There is tons of evidence that I can find over the net done by people in the field that puts the stereotypes and urban legends to rest about Creatine. The heart thing came from: Pauletto & Strumia, 1996; Gordon et al., 1995 and even on a .GOV site (meaning Goverment agency) it talks about the effects that Creatine give certain types of disorders etc. and one of them was about the heart.
I did look through some of those sites. I couldn't find your quotes. If you're going to present an argument and expect to be taken seriously, it's YOUR responsibility to provide the precise references for your citations. It's not my job to hunt them down.

Here's an abstract of a recent case study (October 2006) from clinicans at the Mayo Clinic:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17046619&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum




J Ren Nutr. 2006 Oct;16(4):341-5.Acute renal failure in a young weight lifter taking multiple food supplements, including creatine monohydrate.

Thorsteinsdottir B,
Grande JP,
Garovic VD. Department of Internal Medicine, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, MN 55902, USA.

We report a case of a healthy 24-year-old man who presented with acute renal failure and proteinuria while taking creatine and multiple other supplements for bodybuilding purposes. A renal biopsy showed acute interstitial nephritis. The patient recovered completely after he stopped taking the supplements. Creatine is a performance-enhancing substance that has gained widespread popularity among professional as well as amateur athletes. It is legal and considered relatively safe. Recently there have been case reports of renal dysfunction, including acute interstitial nephritis, associated with its use. Further studies are needed to evaluate the safety of creatine supplementation. It may be prudent to include a warning of this possible side effect in the product insert.

PMID: 17046619 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



And the most recent comprehensive review I could find on the subject.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10675277&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsum




Pharmacol Res. 2000 Mar;41(3):255-64.
Is there a rationale for the use of creatine either as nutritional supplementation or drug administration in humans participating in a sport?



Benzi G.Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Faculty of Science, University of Pavia, Pavia, Italy.

Even though no unambiguous proof for enhanced performance during high-intensity exercise has yet been reported, the creatine administration is charged to improve physical performance and has become a popular practice among subjects participating in different sports. Appropriate creatine dosage may be also used as a medicinal product since, in accordance with the Council Directive 65/65/CEE, any substance which may be administered with a view to restoring, correcting or modifying physiological functions in human beings is considered a medicinal product. Thus, quality, efficacy and safety must characterize the substance. In biochemical terms, creatine administration enhances both creatine and phosphocreatine concentrations, allowing for an increased total creatine pool in skeletal muscle. In thermodynamics terms, creatine interferes with the creatine-creatine kinase-phosphocreatine circuit, which is related to the mitochondrial function as a highly organized system for the energy control of the subcellular adenylate pool. In pharmacokinetics terms, creatine entry into skeletal muscle is initially dependent on the extracellular concentration, but the creatine transport is subsequently down-regulated. In pharmacodynamics terms, the creatine enhances the possibility to maintain power output during brief periods of high-intensity exercises. In spite of uncontrolled daily dosage and long-term administration, no research on creatine safety in humans has been set up by specific standard protocol of clinical pharmacology and toxicology, as currently occurs in phase I for the products for human use. More or less documented side effects induced by creatine are weight gain; influence on insulin production; feedback inhibition of endogenous creatine synthesis; long-term damages on renal function. A major point that related to the quality of creatine products is the amount of creatine ingested in relation to the amount of contaminants present. During the production of creatine from sarcosine and cyanamide, variable amounts of contaminants (dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions) are generated and, thus, their tolerable concentrations (ppm) must be defined by specific toxicological researches. Creatine, as the nutritional factors, can be used either at supplementary or therapeutic levels as a function of the dose. Supplementary doses of nutritional factors usually are of the order of the daily turnover, while therapeutic ones are three or more times higher. In a subject with a body weight of 70 kg with a total creatine pool of 120 g, the daily turnover is approximately 2 g. Thus, in healthy subjects nourished with a fat-rich, carbohydrate-, protein-poor diet and participating in a daily recreational sport, the oral creatine supplementation should be on the order of the daily turnover, i.e. less than 2.5-3 g per day, bringing the gastrointestinal absorption to account. In healthy athletes submitted daily to high-intensity strength- or sprint-training, the maximal oral creatine supplementation should be on the order of two times the daily turnover, i.e. less than 5-6 g per day for less than 2 weeks, and the creatine supplementation should be taken under appropriate medical supervision. The oral administration of more than 6 g per day of creatine should be considered as a therapeutic intervention because the dosage is more than three times higher than the creatine daily turnover and more than six times higher than the creatine daily allowance. In this case, creatine administration should be prescribed by physicians only in the cases of suspected or proven deficiency, or in conditions of severe stress and/or injury. 2000 Academic Press@p$hr Copyright 2000 Academic Press.

PMID: 10675277 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Bottom line, creatine and other supplements are unregulated products with an as-yet unknown reward-to risk ratio. Use them at your own peril.



I mean our bodies make Creatine, so how can it be that bad for us? We eat Creatine when we eat meat, creatine related kindey or liver disorders are so small and unnoticable that no one pays any attention to it because it rarely happens; furthermore only morons/impatient people overdose on creatine, there is steps on how you should take it. Our bodies normally make all kinds on wastes due to normal metabolism which are toxins. The major function of the kidney is to get rid of those.



Also, it sounds like you're leaning towards alcohol being healthier than Creatine and it's not.There's no logical way anyone could come to that conclusion.

[E20]

The second article is basically talking about dosages of creatine and how it should be taken, which I totally agree with, over dosing on anything is unhealthy and something which I have been saying over about Creatine.

To talk about the 1st article, I'd have to say everybody's body is different. Something might work for somebody else while for others might not. That's why when starting any supplement or workout program you should see a physician first, even with Protien powder because it still affects the liver and kidney's. Also, I did mention interstitial nephritis in my quotes.

Our bodies normally make all kinds on wastes due to normal metabolism which are toxins. The major function of the kidney is to get rid of those.
If you're implying Creatine is a toxin, it's not. Creatine is a nitrogenous organic acid that naturally occurs in vertebrates and helps to supply energy to muscle cells -- Wikipedia.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I see Creatine as useful if taken right and the neccessary precautions taken beforehand when using; like you should do with any new supplement or training progam.

Also, I'll just repost my quotes here with links.

[E20]

http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html (Sports Science)

In studies of preoperative and post-operative patients, untrained subjects, and elite athletes, and with dosages of 1.5 to 25 g per day for up to a year, the only side effect has been weight gain (Balsom, Soderlund & Ekblom, 1994). Even so, concern about possible side effects has been mentioned in lay publications and mailing lists. Before discussing these possible side effects, it should be noted that they emanate from unsubstantiated anecdotal reports and may be unrelated to creatine supplementation. We must be careful to base comments regarding side effects of creatine supplementation on factual evidence, not speculation. But we must also understand that few studies have directly investigated any side effects of creatine supplementation. Consequently, discussion about possible side effects is warranted.

Anecdotal reports from some athletic trainers and coaches suggest that creatine supplementation may promote a greater incidence of muscle strains or pulls. Theoretically, the gains in strength and body mass may place additional stress on bone, joints and ligaments. Yet no study has documented an increased rate of injury following creatine supplementation, even though many of these studies evaluated highly trained athletes during heavy training periods. Athletes apparently adapt to the increase in strength, which is modest and gradual.

There have been some anecdotal claims that athletes training hard in hot or humid conditions experience severe muscle cramps when taking creatine, and the cramps have been attributed to overheating and./or changes in the amount of water or salts in muscle. But no study has reported that creatine supplementation causes any cramping, dehydration, or changes in salt concentrations, even though some studies have evaluated highly trained athletes undergoing intense training in hot/humid environments. In my experience with athletes training in the heat (e.g., during 2-a-day football practice in autumn), cramping is related to muscular fatigue and dehydration while exercising in the heat. It is not related to creatine supplementation. Nevertheless, athletes taking creatine while training in hot and humid environments should be aware of this possible side effect and take additional precautions to prevent dehydration.

Some concern has been raised regarding the effects of creatine supplementation on kidney function. The body seems to be able to dispose of the extra creatine without any problem (Poortmans et al., 1997). The extra creatine is eliminated mainly in the urine as creatine, with small amounts broken down and excreted as creatinine or urea. No study has shown that creatine supplementation results in clinically significant increases in liver damage or impaired liver function.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-creatine.html


Congestive heart failure (chronic)

Cardiac creatine levels are reported as depressed in chronic heart failure. Several studies report that creatine supplementation is associated with improved heart muscle strength, body weight and endurance in patients with heart failure. However, it is not clear what dose may be safe or effective. Supplementation is also reported to increase creatine in skeletal muscle in these patients, helping to increase strength and endurance. Well-designed studies comparing creatine with drugs used to treat heart failure are needed before a firm recommendation can be made. Heart failure should be treated by a qualified healthcare professional.
Enhanced athletic performance and endurance

It has been suggested that creatine may help improve athletic performance or endurance by increasing time to fatigue (possibly by shortening muscle recovery periods). However, the results of research evaluating this claim are mixed. Findings from different studies disagree with each other, and most studies do not support the use of creatine to enhance sustained aerobic activities. C
Enhanced muscle mass / strength

Multiple studies suggest that creatine may improve muscle mass and strength in men and women, particularly when accompanied by increased physical activity. However, studies of creatine in athletes have disagreed with each other. Although many experts believe that creatine may be useful for high-intensity, short-duration exercise, it has not been demonstrated effective in endurance sports. Benefit may be greatest when levels of creatine prior to supplementation are low, and in specific sub-populations such as older men.
GAMT deficiency

Some individuals are born with a genetic disorder in which there is a deficiency of the enzyme guanidinoacetate methyltransferase (GAMT). A lack of this enzyme causes severe developmental delays and abnormal movement disorders. The condition is diagnosed by a lack of creatine in the brain. Although there is only limited research in this area.
Heart muscle protection during heart surgery
There is early evidence that heart muscle may recover better and more rapidly after open-heart surgery if intravenous creatinine is administered during the operation. Further study is needed before a recommendation can be made.
High cholesterol
There is limited research in this area, and results from different studies disagree with each other (with some trials noting reductions in total cholesterol and triglyceride levels). It remains unclear what effect creatine has on lipids. Additional studies are needed before a clear conclusion can be drawn.
Huntington's disease
There is preliminary evidence that creatine may be well-tolerated and safe in Huntington's disease patients. Further research is needed before a recommendation can be made.
Hyperornithinemia (high levels of ornithine in the blood)

Ornithine is a byproduct formed in the liver. Some individuals are born with a genetic disorder that prevents them from appropriately breaking down ornithine, and blood levels of ornithine become too high. High amounts of ornithine can lead to blindness, muscle weakness and reduced storage of creatine in muscles and the brain. Although there is only limited research in this area, early evidence suggests that long-term, daily creatine supplements may help replace missing creatine and slow vision loss.
McArdle's disease

In McArdle's disease, there is a deficiency of energy compounds stored in muscle. This leads to muscle fatigue, exercise intolerance, and pain when exercising. Creatine has been proposed as a possible therapy for this condition. However, research is limited, and the results of existing studies disagree with each other. Therefore, it remains unclear if creatine offers any benefits to patients with McArdle's disease.

Muscular dystrophy

Creatine loss is suspected to cause muscle weakness and breakdown in Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Further research of creatine supplementation for muscular dystrophy is needed before a recommendation can be made. C
Myocardial infarction (heart attack)

There is early evidence that intravenous creatine following a heart attack may be beneficial to heart muscle function, and may prevent ventricular arrhythmias. Further study is needed before a recommendation can be made in this area.It has been reported that use of creatine phosphate may have a favorable effect on mental deterioration in "cardio-cerebral syndrome" following heart attacks in the elderly.
Neuromuscular disorders

Numerous studies suggest that creatine may be helpful in the treatment of various neuromuscular diseases, such as amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and myasthenia gravis, and may delay onset of symptoms when used as an adjunct to conventional treatment. However, creatine ingestion does not appear to have a significant effect on muscle creatine stores or high-intensity exercise capacity in individuals with multiple sclerosis and supplementation does not seem to help people with tetraplegia.Although early studies were encouraging, recent research reports no beneficial effects on survival or disease progression. Additional studies are needed to provide clearer answers.

Grading rationale

Uses based on tradition or theory
The below uses are based on tradition or scientific theories. They often have not been thoroughly tested in humans, and safety and effectiveness have not always been proven. Some of these conditions are potentially serious, and should be evaluated by a qualified healthcare provider.
AGAT deficiency, Alzheimer's disease, anti-arrhythmic, anti-convulsant, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, breast cancer, cervical cancer, circadian clock acceleration, colon cancer, diabetes, diabetic complications, disuse muscle atrophy, fibromyalgia, growth, herpes, hyperhomocysteinemia, mitochondrial diseases, neuroprotection, Parkinson's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, hypoxic seizures, wasting of brain regions.



DosingReturn to top

The below doses are based on scientific research, publications, traditional use, or expert opinion. Many herbs and supplements have not been thoroughly tested, and safety and effectiveness may not be proven. Brands may be made differently, with variable ingredients, even within the same brand. The below doses may not apply to all products. You should read product labels, and discuss doses with a qualified healthcare provider before starting therapy.

Adults (18 years and older):
A wide range of dosing has been used or studied by mouth. 400 milligrams per kilogram of body weight or up to 25 grams per day has been studied for multiple conditions.

Numerous dosing regimens for intravenous or intramuscular administration have been used in studies in humans. Intravenous dosing should be conducted only under strict medical supervision.

Children (younger than 18 years):
Dosing in children should be under medical supervision because of potential adverse effects.


The U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not strictly regulate herbs and supplements. There is no guarantee of strength, purity or safety of products, and effects may vary. You should always read product labels. If you have a medical condition, or are taking other drugs, herbs, or supplements, you should speak with a qualified healthcare provider before starting a new therapy. Consult a healthcare provider immediately if you experience side effects.

Allergies
Creatine has been associated with asthmatic symptoms. People should avoid creatine if they have a known allergy to this supplement.

Side Effects and Warnings
There is limited systematic study of the safety, pharmacology, or toxicology of creatine. Individuals using creatine, including athletes, should be monitored by a healthcare professional. Users are advised to inform their physician or other qualified healthcare professional.

Some individuals may experience gastrointestinal symptoms, including loss of appetite, stomach discomfort, diarrhea, or nausea.

Creatine may cause muscle cramps or muscle breakdown, leading to muscle tears or discomfort. Weight gain and increased body mass may occur. Heat intolerance, fever, dehydration, reduced blood volume, or electrolyte imbalances (and resulting seizures) may occur.

There is less concern today than there used to be about possible kidney damage from creatine, although there are reports of kidney damage, such as interstitial nephritis. Patients with kidney disease should avoid use of this supplement. Similarly, liver function may be altered, and caution is advised in those with underlying liver disease.

In theory, creatine may alter the activities of insulin. Caution is advised in patients with diabetes or hypoglycemia, and in those taking drugs, herbs, or supplements that affect blood sugar. Serum glucose levels may need to be monitored by a healthcare professional, and medication adjustments may be necessary.

Chronic administration of a large quantity of creatine is reported to increase the production of formaldehyde, which may potentially cause serious unwanted side effects.

Creatine may increase the risk of compartment syndrome of the lower leg, a condition characterized by pain in the lower leg associated with inflammation and ischemia (diminished blood flow), which is a potential surgical emergency.




General Creatine Info: http://www.bla.net/opul/crfaq.htm#Usage

[ObiwanGinobili]

our bodies make all the creatine we CAN use.
any supplement is virtually useless.

[ALVAREZ6]

our bodies make all the creatine we CAN use.
any supplement is virtually useless.Then why does creatine give you a lot of energy and allow you to lift heavier weight and increase your endurance, and recovery time?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i never heard anyone say it gives them more energy but i have seen people's muscles swell with water after extended usage. Your energy boost was probably a placebo effect, alvie.

[E20]

Then why does creatine give you a lot of energy and allow you to lift heavier weight and increase your endurance, and recovery time?
Creatine is a nitrogenous organic acid that naturally occurs in vertebrates and helps to supply energy to muscle cells -- Wikipedia.

[ALVAREZ6]

i never heard anyone say it gives them more energy but i have seen people's muscles swell with water after extended usage. Your energy boost was probably a placebo effect, alvie.If you take it after a workout where you're already exhausted, and then take creatine right after, it does give you the ability to do the same workout again by giving your muscles that extra strength. I think that goes hand in hand with energy.

[scott]

I find the claim that most American's get twice the protein they need already to be intereresting... I can't find enough protein. I target 170g/day based on a 1700 cal, 40/40/20 diet, and I have a hard time finding enough lean protein sources. High Protein breakfast cereal, 3 shakes a day, a can of tuna and chicken breast only take me to about 160g. The rest is made up in what little protein I can find in veggies, rice, juices, etc.

One thing I haven't seen pointed out, is that you want a slower burning protein most of the time (I use BSN's Syntha-6) and a fast burning like 100% Whey for right after you workout, because your body is in that window where it is looking to replenish itself and can easily absorb carbs and protein.

[johngateswhiteley]

I find the claim that most American's get twice the protein they need already to be intereresting... I can't find enough protein. I target 170g/day based on a 1700 cal, 40/40/20 diet, and I have a hard time finding enough lean protein sources. High Protein breakfast cereal, 3 shakes a day, a can of tuna and chicken breast only take me to about 160g. The rest is made up in what little protein I can find in veggies, rice, juices, etc.

One thing I haven't seen pointed out, is that you want a slower burning protein most of the time (I use BSN's Syntha-6) and a fast burning like 100% Whey for right after you workout, because your body is in that window where it is looking to replenish itself and can easily absorb carbs and protein.

you need help bro. first of all, you don't need all that protein, second, the recommended amount of protein is, i believe 50 grams, for the average adult. most Americans easily double that, thats what we are talking about. furthermore, are you a 215 lb. athlete who works out like a fiend? otherwise, i cannot understand where you are coming from...and even then i think you are getting too much protein. unless, you are severely restricting calories which is also stupid.

[scott]

you need help bro. first of all, you don't need all that protein, second, the recommended amount of protein is, i believe 50 grams, for the average adult. most Americans easily double that, thats what we are talking about. furthermore, are you a 215 lb. athlete who works out like a fiend? otherwise, i cannot understand where you are coming from...and even then i think you are getting too much protein. unless, you are severely restricting calories which is also stupid.

Are you talking about FDA allowances? If so... why? Those are completely irrelevant to an active lifestyle. There is a ton of documented nutritional science backing a 1g per lbs of lean body mass protein diet. 30/40/30 and 40/40/20 diets (I use a 40/40/20) also have mountains of nutrition science behind them. 170g of protein is simply 40% of a 1700 calorie diet.

[Shelly]

Hey, Scoot!

Check your PM

[ALVAREZ6]

170g of protein for someone who only eats 1700 calories a day is a fuck load.

[johngateswhiteley]

Are you talking about FDA allowances? If so... why? Those are completely irrelevant to an active lifestyle. There is a ton of documented nutritional science backing a 1g per lbs of lean body mass protein diet. 30/40/30 and 40/40/20 diets (I use a 40/40/20) also have mountains of nutrition science behind them. 170g of protein is simply 40% of a 1700 calorie diet.

i am about to leave with the Maggots for our game against Haggis tomorrow, so i can't really get into this with you. but, its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and are either: A) completely lost B) just wasting my time on purpose

1. nobody with an active lifestyle can be healthy on 1700 calories
2. less than 1% of the population could benefit from 170 grams of protein a day
3. your body cannot absorb 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, its just not possible
4. real science, not these sports nutrition yahoos, is what you should follow
5. you don't need 170 grams of protein, i probably eat around 110-120 per day and i am in pretty decent shape. my body is never starving for protein and i am fairly certain i live a more vigorous lifestyle than yourself
6. whoever is telling you this info is a moron

[NorCal510]

how do you know how much protein and calories you intake? a steak doesnt have a label that says 25.67mg calories and 15.66g of protein

[scott]

i am about to leave with the Maggots for our game against Haggis tomorrow, so i can't really get into this with you. but, its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and are either: A) completely lost B) just wasting my time on purpose

1. nobody with an active lifestyle can be healthy on 1700 calories
2. less than 1% of the population could benefit from 170 grams of protein a day
3. your body cannot absorb 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, its just not possible
4. real science, not these sports nutrition yahoos, is what you should follow
5. you don't need 170 grams of protein, i probably eat around 110-120 per day and i am in pretty decent shape. my body is never starving for protein and i am fairly certain i live a more vigorous lifestyle than yourself
6. whoever is telling you this info is a moron

You have a long history of idiocy that preceeds you in this forum, and your latest gem is no different. You have absolutely no clue as to my lifestyle, body composition, or goals and yet you manage to come up with some rather "definite" answers. Maybe you could start by actually READING and that would help you significantly.

Here is a good place for you to start... learn the difference between pounds of lean body mass and total body weight.

Anyway, thanks for being the expert on this subject matter, along with having the fastest 40 time in all of the internet and being the end-all-be-all of deciding which out of your league supermodel is the hottest.

[boutons_]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070410113836.htm

Source: McMaster University

Date: April 11, 2007

Sciences

Milk Beats Soy For Post-weighlifting Muscle Gain

Science Daily — Got milk? Weightlifters will want to raise a glass after a new study found that milk protein is significantly better than soy at building muscle mass.

The study, conducted by a team of researchers at McMaster University's Department of Kinesiology, was recently published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. It compared how much muscle protein young men gained after completing a heavy weight workout followed by consumption of equivalent amounts of protein as either fluid skim milk or a soy drink.

"Our thinking going into the study was that milk would be better than soy. We suspected this would be the case because of work done by French researchers. However, we were really impressed by how much greater the gains in muscle protein with milk were," says Sarah Wilkinson, lead researcher and a graduate student in the department of kinesiology.

The findings would suggest that if men consume only skim milk (two cups) after each of their workouts, they would gain almost twice as much muscle in 10 weeks than if they drank the same amount of protein as a soy drink.

"This is an interesting finding, since soy and milk proteins are considered to be complete proteins that are basically equivalent from a nutritional standpoint," explains Stuart Phillips, associate professor of kinesiology, who was also involved in the study. "Our findings clearly show that milk proteins are a superior source of protein in producing muscle mass gains in response to weightlifting."

Scientists also analyzed the composition of milk and soy proteins and did not find remarkable differences. At this stage, researchers are uncertain why milk proteins were so much more effective than soy. However, the two main types of proteins in milk, whey and casein, may have intrinsic properties that are advantageous in terms of supporting muscle growth.

"The plan at this point is to follow this up with a long-term study to see if the findings from this short-term study can be replicated," says Phillips.

Funding for the study was made possible by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR) and the US National Dairy Council.

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by McMaster University.

=================

So, if you can't get enough protein from normal diet (you've got fucked-up concerns other than muscle building), it seems that whey protein isolate, has little or no bad press, would be better than soy derivatives, which have plenty of negative research.

You REALLY want to stay away from soy because of the phyto-estrogen and genistein.

[ALVAREZ6]

Milk is good :tu