Best powerforwards in league now...

[Kobulingam]

1. TD
2. Dirk
3. KG
4. CB4
5. Booz
6. Gasol
7. Brand
8. JO
9. Matrix
10. Sheed

[BUMP]

1. TD
2. Dirk
3. KG
4. CB4
5. Booz
6. Gasol
7. Brand
8. JO
9. Matrix
10. Sheed

i would reorder it a little bit

1 TD
2 Dirk
3 KG
4 Brand
5 CB4
6 O'Neal
7 Boozer
8 Matrix
9 Gasol
10 Sheed

[resistanze]

1. Duncan
2. Dirk/KG
4. Bosh
5. Boozer
6. Brand
7. Marion
8. Jermaine O'Neal
9. Gasol
10. Sheed

[BUMP]

Jermaine is vastly underrated he gets no attention cause he plays for a nobody but he can put up huge numbers with basic moves ala Tim Duncan. consistency isnt there

[leemajors]

marion is not a pf.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

sheed is clearly number 1 :elephant

[BUMP]

sheed is clearly number 1 :elephant

@ making half court shots

[Rip-Hamilton32]

@ making half court shots

and getting t'd up

[TDMVPDPOY]

switch KG with bosh

bosh should be rewarded for gettin his raptors till where they are this year..

KG is overrated as hell...

[Rip-Hamilton32]

switch KG with bosh

bosh should be rewarded for gettin his raptors till where they are this year..

KG is overrated as hell...

yeah, i have watched about half of the raptor's games this season bosh takes control down the stretch almost every night

[Kobulingam]

1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Brand
4. Marion
5. Boozer
6. Garnett
7. Gasol
8. Bosh
9. JO
10. Sheed

Marion doesn't see any double teams, why is he so high up?

[Kobulingam]

yeah, i have watched about half of the raptor's games this season bosh takes control down the stretch almost every night

Clutch free throw shooter, unlike... nvm.

[Medvedenko]

TD
KG
Dirk
Bosh
J Oneal
Randolph
Gasol
Odom
Brand
Marion

[Kobulingam]

If he wasn't on the Suns, they would be even worse defensively. He guards their best player and is very active on the offensive end. He is 6'7'' and grabs 10 boards a game. Name any other player to do that in NBA history besides Charles Barkley.

Dude never sees a double team. He gets his points spoon fed to him.

He's decent on defense, but he doesn't automatically guard the best player on the opposite team. You're assuming every team's best player is a forward.

What about the teams that have not-so-great forwards but great center(s), guards ? Does Marion even defend the guard-like small forwards (McGrady)? Does he defend Kobe, Shaq, etc. etc. etc.

Ok so he defends Dirk well, that still doesn't support your absurd statement.

[JamStone]

I know it's a matter of definition, but Dwight Howard technically is a power forward, as Tony Battie plays center. If Duncan and JO are power forwards, than so is Dwight Howard.

[Kobulingam]

I know it's a matter of definition, but Dwight Howard technically is a power forward, as Tony Battie plays center. If Duncan and JO are power forwards, than so is Dwight Howard.

Ok. He's still not in my top 5, top 10 is debatable.

[Kobulingam]

Are you kidding me? Marion guards the teams best player unless he is a PG or Center with some exceptions. Bell sometimes guards Kobe.

So Marion guards Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Michael Redd, etc. ? Does he shut them down too?

[NBA Junkie]

I'd give Dwight Howard more consideration if he ever devleoped an outside shot and didn't turn the ball over so much.

The one thing he does have going for him is that he's a rebounding machine on both ends of the floor.

[Leetonidas]

I'd give Dwight Howard more consideration if he ever devleoped an outside shot and didn't turn the ball over so much.

The one thing he does have going for him is that he's a rebounding machine on both ends of the floor.
Howard is a center...

[cherylsteele]

1. TD
2. Dirk
3. KG
4. CB4
5. Booz
6. Gasol
7. Brand
8. JO
9. Matrix
10. Sheed
Isn't Jermaine O'Neal more of center than a PF?

[bdictjames]

1. Dirk
2. TD
3. KG
4. Bosh
5. Boozer
6. Gasol
7. Sheed
8. Brand
9. Matrix
10. JO

That's the way I like it.

[FromWayDowntown]

Sheed might be the best positional defender among true PF's in the league right now. He rarely needs help and is brutally effective at challenging and altering shots, even if he isn't a great, great shot blocker or a big-time rebounder. Frankly, I think sometimes that if Sheed cared more, he might be in the Top 3 or 4. Any list that doesn't have Rasheed Wallace in the Top 10, though, is immediately suspect to me.

As is any list that doesn't have KG in the Top 3 -- dude shouldn't be penalized because his front office continually surrounds him with guys who just can't play.

[mardigan]

I dont know why everybody put Marion on their list, he is a small forward. He should be replaced by Gerald Wallace

[himat]

Sheed might be the best positional defender among true PF's in the league right now. He rarely needs help and is brutally effective at challenging and altering shots, even if he isn't a great, great shot blocker or a big-time rebounder. Frankly, I think sometimes that if Sheed cared more, he might be in the Top 3 or 4. Any list that doesn't have Rasheed Wallace in the Top 10, though, is immediately suspect to me.



He tries, but it's like he doesn't want to take over a game. He is too unselfish, and his emotions get the best of him. He is a top 3 PF as far as defense goes.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Chris Bosh
5. Amare Stoudamire
6. Elton Brand
7. Rasheed Wallace (t)
7. Jermaine Oneal (t) (He has fallen off the map ever since 04, when he was maybe the best PF)
9. Pau Gasol
10. Carlos Boozer

[mabber]

Sheed might be the best positional defender among true PF's in the league right now. He rarely needs help and is brutally effective at challenging and altering shots, even if he isn't a great, great shot blocker or a big-time rebounder. Frankly, I think sometimes that if Sheed cared more, he might be in the Top 3 or 4. Any list that doesn't have Rasheed Wallace in the Top 10, though, is immediately suspect to me.

As is any list that doesn't have KG in the Top 3 -- dude shouldn't be penalized because his front office continually surrounds him with guys who just can't play.

I agree...Sheed has just never seemed to want to play hard all the time. He definitely plays hard in the big/important games though. He's a top 10 PF in my book though.

[endrity]

actually this season Diaw starts most of the time at PF, and before the whole D'Antoni-Nash era in phoenix Marion always played at SF. Plus he really has a SF kind of game anyway, Barkley was short but he dominated inside as well as being able to shoot from the outside. My list (for accomplishments this year only, not a career list):

Dirk
TD
Amare
KG
Boozer
Bosh
Brand
J O'Neal
Al Jefferson
Nene

p.s1 Gasol to me is much more of a center, even though he is listed at C. Duncan has more range than him, and a lot of people would claim Duncan is a C himself.
p.s2 I live in Michigan, and I can't put Rasheed there just because of potential. For every 20-10 game he has three 7 pts 5 reb, 3-10Fg games. On talent alone he would be in the top 5.
p.s3 I understand that someone might question the last two selections, but if you look at how those two guys have been playing since the new year you would understand. It will probably be until next year for people to start talking about them but Jefferson and Nene are coming, and by next year people will be talking about All-Star potential about both of them.

[JMarkJohns]

I wouldn't say Marion deserves to be mentioned among power forwards because he's not one. If you were to say the best "fours" or the est players to play the PF spot, then perhaps.

Also, Marion has guarded every position but center this year. He puts up great stats regardless, but to be honest, he doesn't have the head for defending the perimeter. He bites of up-fakes, gets lost, struggles to stay in front. He does a reasonably good job, but he's by no means a defensive stopper when defending a PG (like Parker, Terry, Arenas) or SG (Kobe, Wade). He is, however, a very good defensive player in the post or mid-range. I know forwards can back him down, but he's much more consistant and imapctful defending SFs and PFs.

He's certainly one of the top-10 players at the 4 in the League. I'd probably say overall, he's top-7. Few can log the stats he does. At least in the regular season. You make the casee that he doesn't draw double teams, thus why he scores. Well, he doesn't have but one or two plays called for him per game, unlike many of those on your list who get over a dozen per. I'd say what he does in passing is as, if not more impressive than what some on that list do on purpose.

18/22 ppg, 9/11 rpg, 2ish steals, 2ish blocks on improved shooting. I'd say on a best player list, no lower than 8, but I don't think he's a power forward, and therefore shouldn't be on this list.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett (great rebounder, good defender)
3. Dirk (more perimeter than power, but still very good)
4. Brand
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. O'Neal (if best player, Marion goes here)
8. Wallace
9. Randolph
10. Gasol (if best player, Odom is ahead of Gasol)

Just missing: D. Howard (not yet. Not enough offense, nor consistency)

[samikeyp]

Dirk
TD

Last year I would have agreed with this....IMO Duncan has earned it back this season.

[Cry Havoc]

How any Spurs fan could put Dirk ahead of Duncan is beyond me. You guys need to seriously stop rooting for San Antonio.

Duncan is the most dominant PF in the game and it's not close. No one in the entire NBA influences the ball on every possession of the game more than Duncan (except maybe Shaq, when he's not playing like he's 50). Dirk is undoubtedly as good or better on the offensive end, but Duncan is light-years beyond him in defense.

Duncan is one of the top 5 defenders in the league every year. And every post-season, he's one of the best offensive weapons, drawing double-teams all game.

Seriously, if you're a Mavs fan, I have no problem with you putting Dirk first. If you're a Spurs fan however, you're out of your freaking mind.

[mavs>spurs2]

How any Spurs fan could put Dirk ahead of Duncan is beyond me. You guys need to seriously stop rooting for San Antonio.

Duncan is the most dominant PF in the game and it's not close. No one in the entire NBA influences the ball on every possession of the game more than Duncan (except maybe Shaq, when he's not playing like he's 50). Dirk is undoubtedly as good or better on the offensive end, but Duncan is light-years beyond him in defense.

Duncan is one of the top 5 defenders in the league every year. And every post-season, he's one of the best offensive weapons, drawing double-teams all game.

Seriously, if you're a Mavs fan, I have no problem with you putting Dirk first. If you're a Spurs fan however, you're out of your freaking mind.


I'd also put Duncan ahead of Dirk, but I wouldn't say its not even close. Dirk is better offensively, but Duncan more than makes up for it on defense.

[mardigan]

I'd also put Duncan ahead of Dirk, but I wouldn't say its not even close. Dirk is better offensively, but Duncan more than makes up for it on defense.
Dirk can shoot better, but he isnt better offensively. I would agree, its not even close. Duncan affects the game on both sides, not just one as Dirk does. Duncan is also just as skilled as Dirk on offense, just in a different way. No one outside of Shaq commands the doubles that Tim does, and while Dirk may be a dominant shooter, I like my 7 footers with post moves

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd agree that Duncan is a better overall player than Dirk at this point, largely because the two players are at least close offensively -- although very, very different offensive players -- but I can't yet buy that Dirk is remotely in Duncan's realm as a defender. Dirk has undoubtedly improved as a defensive player, but you're comparing a guy who's just learning to play some defense (and a guy who still tends to play defense with his arms and not with his feet) with one of the dominant defenders to ever play the game. That gap, IMO, remains huge. And that difference, IMO, makes Duncan the superior all-around player.

Few players in the history of the NBA have had the ability to change the game -- or to dominate it -- on both ends of the floor like Tim Duncan. I sometimes think that it will take his retirement for some people to recognize just how great he truly is. Duncan is truly a guy who can be measured now against the longer history of the NBA; I'm not sure that the same can be said yet of any of his contemporaries, other than maybe Kevin Garnett.

[endrity]

Look I think Duncan is the top PF of all time, I thought for a 4 year stretch 2002-2005 he was the best player in the league period, wayyyy better than Shaq. I completely understand how good Duncan is, and what his place in history is. However, I think Duncan is not quite the defender he used to be. Before you all tell me how good he looked against the Suns, and he was great, I am going to point out that rarely do I see him on the team's best offensive player and I believe he has lost quite a bit of speed compared to 02-03. On offense, you guys should know better than anyone the issues that Dirk causes for many teams. He is not just a great offensive player, and extremely efficient, but the main problem he causes is that he throws other team's strategy off the window because of the cross matching that teams do when they defend him. His impact on offense is way more than just his already incredible stats. I personally think this year has really been his best, and if you think he already had surpassed Duncan last year than you would have a hard time to convince me that Duncan has somehow become even better than that. I personally love John Hollinger's work, and as he wrote, if the top two players on the MVP ballot are not Dirk and Duncan someone has quite some explaining to do so I will leave it at that. If Dirk gets a ring or two in the next couple of year, I believe that when history is written Duncan will be the top PF of all time, but Dirk will not be much behind, in fact he might be right behind him at the number 2 slot.
p.s Sooner or later someone in the media will have to write an article to debunk the myth that Kevin Garnett is a great defender. I will not go into it now, but for his athletic abilities he has never been better than average. Sheed, Dirk, Duncan, Amare have all light him up in the past. He is if anything a good help defender. And has an extremely limited offensive repertoire consisting on basically two moves, the baseline turnaround and the elbow jumper. That's it. That is why he can't take over, he is extremely predictable.

[Kobulingam]

... If Dirk gets a ring or two in the next couple of year, I believe that when history is written Duncan will be the top PF of all time, but Dirk will not be much behind, in fact he might be right behind him at the number 2 slot. ...


DAMN. :smokin you high fa sho

[endrity]

well considering that many have Barkley and Malone in that number 2 spot, even though both never won a title, and Dirk's game is a little more complete I wouldn't too surprised to see that

[Cry Havoc]

However, I think Duncan is not quite the defender he used to be.

I guess that means every other Spurs player should be on the All-Defensive team then, because once again they are the best defensive team in the league. Elson, Parker, and Finley must just be defensive terrors and we haven't noticed.
:lol

[endrity]

Well first parker is quite a good defender, so is ginobili, so is bowen and elson plays pretty hard. However, a good defense needs a good system more than anything else. The mavs have improved vastly on D not because they had great defensive players ( i think only Damp/Diop and Harris are really defensive specialists) but because of a system around them. Plus come on, a lot of Spurs fans have been mentioning that throughout the year. I am not the first one to say it, it's just that I am a Mavs fan and that irritates you. Duncan is still really good on D, as shown by the Suns game, however I don't think he is what he used to be.

[Cry Havoc]

I am not the first one to say it, it's just that I am a Mavs fan and that irritates you. Duncan is still really good on D, as shown by the Suns game, however I don't think he is what he used to be.

No, actually what irritates me is that you offer vague criticisms of a player without a single quantifiable reason why. "You think" he's not as good? That's it? I "think" he's smarter and more efficient with his moments to make stops, which is not always necessary in the reg. season. He's been relatively unhealthy over the past two playoff runs and still dominated -- he destroyed Detroit on one leg in the Finals.

I'll take a Duncan who's two years older and (knock on wood) completely healthy come playoff time than a slightly younger and hobbled version. Even when he was going off on the Mavs last year you could see he wasn't 100% at times.

[FromWayDowntown]

I've watched Duncan's defense since the day that he entered the league, and I don't think he's lost a damned thing as a defender. He's probably better now than he was in his first few seasons because he's the most accountable Spur on the defensive end and he doesn't have another all-time defender like David Robinson back there to provide a security blanket.

It's ridiculous to argue that Tim somehow isn't a great defender because he doesn't always guard an opponent's best offensive threat all night. Primarily, that's a testament to just how valuable Timmy is to his team -- his coach is understandably unwilling to expose Tim to the possibility of foul trouble in the early stages of a game. More importantly, though, on most nights, when it really matters, Tim ends up defending that guy (to the extent that such players are bigs) and on more nights than not, does the job defensively.

Dirk Nowitzki is a freakish player. And he's a great player. But I don't see that he'll ever be considered the 2nd greatest PF to ever play the game if he retires with one ring. For all of his offensive prowess, he can't hold a candle to guys like Malone or Barkley as defenders or, perhaps more importantly, as rebounders.

And the notion that KG is an overrated player or defender is just asinine. When KG's done, some people are going to look up and say "Damn, he did that?" Dude's a no-brainer first ballot hall of famer and if he didn't play in the exact same era as Tim Duncan, he'd be the guy drawing comparisons to Barkley and Malone.

[endrity]

agree to disagree, i wrote way too much on this thread so I will stop at that. However if you want an unbiased view of dirk in comparison to barkley and malone check bill simmons' article from the playoffs last year. He said Dirk is the 'most complete forward' to play the game in the last 20 years. And he called Malone a fake. this all coming from a guy who has never been a huge fan of Dirk or the Mavs.
EDIT: I think you severely underrate Dirk as a rebounder, just look at the boxscores from the playoffs last year

[FromWayDowntown]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.

[mardigan]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.
Or Charles Barkley

[Mavs Man]

1 Dirk
2 Nowitski
3 the sexy german guy
4 #41 for Dallas
5 Croshere
6 that guy who plays for the silver and black team #21
7 the tall black guy who has the wolf on his jersey
8 God it's fucking hot in this suit

[Leetonidas]

I'll go with this...

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Elton Brand
5. Chris Bosh
6. Zach Randolph
7. Carlos Boozer
8. Jermaine O'Neal
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Pau Gasol

[endrity]

I can't imagine how anyone with half a brain could conclude that Dirk is "a more complete player" than Tim Duncan . . . . or Karl Malone.
very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals. Dirk is much better than that. Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that. Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk. Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility. And if he wins the MVP and the title this year, he will also overpass their career achievements. Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy. However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now. Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP).

[DarrinS]

Sheed is one of the few people that defends Duncan well.


IMO, Marion is not a top 10 PF, but he does play good defense. He's especially effective at frustrating Dirk.

[FromWayDowntown]

very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals.

Yup. Dude just shot 52% from the floor and averaged 25 ppg for the duration of his 19 year career. That's pretty inconsistent offensive play. And, while I can't believe that I'm defending him this vociferously, Hot Karl was much, much more than a 16-18' jumpshooter. You don't end up 1st all-time in FTA and FTM by making a living shooting 16-18 foot jumpshots -- though it might be hard to convince some Mavericks fans of the logical disconnect there.


Dirk is much better than that.

Yeah -- I can readily see how someone might argue that a guy who is a 47% shooter and averages 22 ppg for his career would be "much better" than that guy.

:rolleyes



Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that.

Malone did far more damage to the psyches of Spurs fans than Dirk Nowitzki has ever done. At least the Spurs have beaten the Dirk-led Mavericks when it counted. And the one time Dirk did get over, he and his team very nearly choked away a 20 point lead and 3-1 series lead. The Spurs were never that close to beating the Malone-led Jazz, largely because Karl Malone was outstanding from tip to buzzer in those series.


Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk.

A guy who shot 54% for his career, averaged more ppg (to this point at least) than Nowitzki, and put up 15 consecutive seasons of 10+ RPG is a poor man's anything? Give me a break. You make Barkley --clearly one of the greatest players to ever play the game -- seem like some sort of underdog overachiever. That's patently ridiculous.


Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility.

Both of those guys were multidimensional for all-time. They are among the better combinations of scorers and rebounders to ever play the game. And while you castigate their defense -- implicitly, at least -- from a purely defensive standpoint, a guy like Malone (who made First Team All-Defense 3 times in his career) looks like Bill Russell compared to a player like Dirk Nowitzki.

Until Dirk plays something resembling great defense, I don't see how he can be considered more versatile than any great scorer who is willing to defend. He might be a more versatile offensive player than some of these other guys, but that doesn't make him a more complete or versatile player than comparables who actually get it done on the defensive end -- by doing more than just rebounding.


And if he wins the MVP and the title this year, he will also overpass their career achievements.

Assuming that both of those things come true, he'll have one fewer MVP than Malone and as many as Barkley. I don't buy the argument that a single title can define individual greatness in any meaningful respect. Karl Malone is one of history's greatest players even though his teams never won a title. The same is true of Barkley. And, undoubtedly, each was impacted by being a total contemporary of Michael Jordan -- not an insignificant historical footnote. Does Tim Duncan look better, in part, because of his championships? Sure. But it would be foolish, I think, to let titles alone define Tim in historical comparison to guys like Malone and Barkley, because Tim's teams never had to deal with Jordan in his prime in the Finals. I still think that Tim is historically better than Malone and Barkley because he is as good offensively and from a rebounding standpoint than those guys were, but is a dominant defender. But that comparison has very little to do with championships won.


Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy.

Sure enough. I don't know, however, of a single player in NBA history who defined himself among the top 5 to ever play a position (which seems to be your argument viz. Dirk) by a good 3-5 year run.


However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now. Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP).

I still think that Duncan is the more complete player right now because nobody in the league matches Tim's combination of offensive ability and defensive dominance. Nobody.

And even with an MVP, I still don't think that Dirk's career will have surpassed Garnett's. I can't imagine a scenario, short of a quantum change in the way that Dirk plays on the defensive end of the court, that would ever convince me that Dirk for his career was a better player than Garnett was for his career.

[Cry Havoc]

very simple actually, at least in regards to Malone. Karl made his living at least in his MVP years, by hitting that 16-18 foot jumper and he was not consistent with that, at least not in the Finals. Dirk is much better than that. Karl was almost a liability in crunch time, Dirk is clutch and spurs fans should be the last to disagree with that. Barkley, was not a great defender. He was ok at best. Even his best team, the Suns of 93 looked to outscore people. His best asset was that he was a 6-4 PF that while ruggged inside, could also beat you from the outside. To me that sounds exactly like a poor man's Dirk. Both of these guys were multidimensional for their time, yet no one matches Dirk's versatility. And if he wins the MVP and the title this year, he will also overpass their career achievements. Don't forget that Dirk is only 28, and now he really is in his prime. For the next 2-3 years, he will have a chance to really write his legacy. However this was a thread on best PF now, not on career achievements, and I made it clear on my first post. I think Dirk is best PF now.

Dirk is a 10 on offense while Duncan -might- be a 9 (though with the double teams he draws you could consider him a 10). Meanwhile, Duncan is a 10 on defense while Dirk MIGHT be a 7, but is probably hovering around the 6.5 range.

Calling Dirk a more complete PF than Duncan is in the same vein of thought that likens Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Defense gets zero respect in today's league because it isn't flashy. Kobe is flashy on offense, perhaps as much so as Jordan was, so let's summarily dismiss MJ's contributions on the other side of the court.

Dirk is a pretty flashy player. Duncan is not. That's the difference, and that's what bothers people so much when the Spurs win titles, because they don't let the other team make spectacular plays. They shut down the opposition, and in doing so people think it's a poorly played contest, when in reality it's a defensive mastery. They scrum, make tough plays in the post (something I've rarely seen Dirk attempt). And so it is with Duncan. There is not a single player in the league right now that would make a PG think twice about driving into the lane besides Shaq, and with the speed he moves at these days, Duncan is the best post defender in the game.

Say all you want about Dirk's slashing, his great jump shot, his "improving" defense. If you even try to offer a single reason why Dirk is a more complete player than Duncan, you haven't been around the sport long. The article by Simmons is ridiculous. That's like calling Nash the "most complete" point guard in the history of the league. Sure, some people will buy it because Nash is hot right now, and he makes incredibly flashy plays. He looks unstoppable, until any top 10 PG comes along and makes him and the entire Suns team look absolutely lost on defense. Fans who saw Magic rise to prominence just smile and nod and say, yep, Nash is a pretty good little point guard.

Dirk is a pretty good power forward.

It's funny though, because those two "complete" players have 0 Finals MVPs and 0 Titles between them. Yet they're supposed to be the best at each position? I guess it's not surprising. Young fans equate Sportscenter highlights to quality basketball. Older fans are a bit more cogniscient of the fact that Defense never gets credit yet always takes the Title home.



Career wise he is under Duncan and KG until april (when he wins his first MVP), in which case he'll only be three rings, three finals MVPs, an MVP, nine all-NBA defensive team selections, three all-NBA selections, and a whole hell of a lot of blocks and rebounds under Duncan.

Knew something was off about that statement, so I fixed it for you.

[mabber]

Dirk is a 10 on offense while Duncan -might- be a 9 (though with the double teams he draws you could consider him a 10). Meanwhile, Duncan is a 10 on defense while Dirk MIGHT be a 7, but is probably hovering around the 6.5 range.

Calling Dirk a more complete PF than Duncan is in the same vein of thought that likens Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Defense gets zero respect in today's league because it isn't flashy. Kobe is flashy on offense, perhaps as much so as Jordan was, so let's summarily dismiss MJ's contributions on the other side of the court.

Dirk is a pretty flashy player. Duncan is not. That's the difference, and that's what bothers people so much when the Spurs win titles, because they don't let the other team make spectacular plays. They shut down the opposition, and in doing so people think it's a poorly played contest, when in reality it's a defensive mastery. They scrum, make tough plays in the post (something I've rarely seen Dirk attempt). And so it is with Duncan. There is not a single player in the league right now that would make a PG think twice about driving into the lane besides Shaq, and with the speed he moves at these days, Duncan is the best post defender in the game.

Say all you want about Dirk's slashing, his great jump shot, his "improving" defense. If you even try to offer a single reason why Dirk is a more complete player than Duncan, you haven't been around the sport long. The article by Simmons is ridiculous. That's like calling Nash the "most complete" point guard in the history of the league. Sure, some people will buy it because Nash is hot right now, and he makes incredibly flashy plays. He looks unstoppable, until any top 10 PG comes along and makes him and the entire Suns team look absolutely lost on defense. Fans who saw Magic rise to prominence just smile and nod and say, yep, Nash is a pretty good little point guard.

Dirk is a pretty good power forward.

It's funny though, because those two "complete" players have 0 Finals MVPs and 0 Titles between them. Yet they're supposed to be the best at each position? I guess it's not surprising. Young fans equate Sportscenter highlights to quality basketball. Older fans are a bit more cogniscient of the fact that Defense never gets credit yet always takes the Title home.




Knew something was off about that statement, so I fixed it for you.

I'm not arguing your point as I agree that Duncan > than Dirk but to call Dirk "flashy" is a bit of a stretch.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm not arguing your point as I agree that Duncan > than Dirk but to call Dirk "flashy" is a bit of a stretch.

Well, "pretty flashy" is to a lesser extent of flashy. Dirk obviously isn't all just show, and if that's what I was conveying in the initial post, I should revise it. But Dirk's offensive performances are much more in line with hype (mostly well-deserved hype, in his case) than a gritty, quiet post player. Fans and the media love offense and could care less about D.

I honestly have to wonder how much more recognition Duncan would get from the media if he had the temperament of Sheed or Karl Malone. Something tells me he would be on Sportscenter every week and have 3 MVPs to show for it. Of course, # of MVPs is a distant second to playoff performances and titles, so I'll take the more reserved, silently dominate Timmay.

[endrity]

Dirk is not more complete than Duncan. However I agree that he is compared to Barkley and Malone. Let's leave it at this.

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirk is not more complete than Duncan. However I agree that he is compared to Barkley and Malone. Let's leave it at this.

:lol

[mardigan]

Dirk is not more complete than Duncan. However I agree that he is compared to Barkley and Malone. Let's leave it at this.
Yea, I missed this one. You have got to be kidding me.

[naico]

1 TD
2 KG
3 Dirk
4 CB4
5 Gasol
6 O'Neal
7 Brand
8 Boozer
9 Matrix
10 Sheed

Dirk is a great player and has really carried his team but the guy just sucks at playing defense. And as odd as this may sound, but JO isn't that good of a defensive player. Ok, he's a good shotblocker, but he just seems very slow on his feet and he just walks towards the defensive end slower than my grandma. CB4 is going to be huge. Duncan is GOAT.

[Marklar MM]

If he wasn't on the Suns, they would be even worse defensively. He guards their best player and is very active on the offensive end. He is 6'7'' and grabs 10 boards a game. Name any other player to do that in NBA history besides Charles Barkley.

Dennis Rodman ring a bell? How about Ben Wallace(Not as tall as whats listed)?

[ploto]

Three pages and not one person has mentioned that Duncan is a center. Even most all NBA teams I have seen predicted for this season list Duncan at center.

Best guys playing PF:
Dirk
CB4
KG

[Cry Havoc]

Three pages and not one person has mentioned that Duncan is a center. Even most all NBA teams I have seen predicted for this season list Duncan at center.

Best guys playing PF:
Dirk
CB4
KG

He's a center?

Why does he play the PF position then? Elson is our center. If you can't even figure out how to look up the rosters on ESPN, I'm surprised you learned how to post here. Garnett and Dirk have played the SF position before, so they also have to be taken out of the PF position by your argument.

[baseline bum]

Jermaine is vastly underrated he gets no attention cause he plays for a nobody but he can put up huge numbers with basic moves ala Tim Duncan. consistency isnt there

I don't like Jermaine O'Neal's game at all. He's once again shooting a shitty percentage, and I thought he got way too much credit for Indiana's success. I still can't believe a bigman can come in #3 in the MVP voting in a year he shoots 43%.

[mardigan]

Three pages and not one person has mentioned that Duncan is a center. Even most all NBA teams I have seen predicted for this season list Duncan at center.

Best guys playing PF:
Dirk
CB4
KG
Then why has he always played pf in his career? What where guys like D-Rob, Rasho, Nazr, and now Elson doing on the court?

[mabber]

He's a center?

Why does he play the PF position then? Elson is our center. If you can't even figure out how to look up the rosters on ESPN, I'm surprised you learned how to post here. Garnett and Dirk have played the SF position before, so they also have to be taken out of the PF position by your argument.

Both KG & Dirk have played a lot of time at center as well. It's been a really long time since Dirk has played the SF position though. That was one of the first things Avery shut down.

[ploto]

Elson plays a whole 18 minutes a game. Duncan plays center more than him. Who do you think is the center when Duncan plays alongside Finley, or Horry, or Bonner?

People know that offensively Duncan played like the center for years and even last year with Rasho on the team, often defensively Rasho ended up covering the PF because they were often the key big man on offense and Duncan took the center.

When the Spurs play Dallas who does Duncan cover again? Oh, yeah, the center- Dampier.

The question was about THIS year, and many people would classify Duncan as a center this year.

Even 82 games has Duncan playing 51% of the entire team's total minutes at center (ie, 24.5 minutes) and only 20% of the teams minutes at PF (ie, 9.6 mins).

[mardigan]

Elson plays a whole 18 minutes a game. Duncan plays center more than him. Who do you think is the center when Duncan plays alongside Finley, or Horry, or Bonner?

People know that offensively Duncan played like the center for years and even last year with Rasho on the team, often defensively Rasho ended up covering the PF because they were often the key big man on offense and Duncan took the center.

When the Spurs play Dallas who does Duncan cover again? Oh, yeah, the center- Dampier.

The question was about THIS year, and many people would classify Duncan as a center this year.

Even 82 games has Duncan playing 51% of the entire team's total minutes at center (ie, 24.5 minutes) and only 20% of the teams minutes at PF (ie, 9.6 mins).
Define playing like a center offensively? Dont you mean playing like a post player? And Rasho hardly ever covered pf's because he was too slow. And you give me one example? Dallas? Ok, so 4 games out of the year, he plays center for 28 minutes a game.And no, I would still not consider Duncan a center this year. Just because he is forced to play another spot sometimes doesnt mean he isnt a pf.

[ploto]

Ok, so 4 games out of the year, he plays center for 28 minutes a game.

Even 82 games has Duncan playing 51% of the entire team's total minutes at center (ie, 24.5 minutes) and only 20% of the teams minutes at PF (ie, 9.6 mins).

Good PF's Rasho covered the past couple of seasons for the Spurs- off the top of my head:
KG
Elton Brand
Chris Bosh
Rasheed Wallace
Jermaine O'Neal
SAR

You missed an entire summer of conversation about the Spurs being better off signing a new PF than a center because Duncan guards centers so much anyway already.

[E20]

Ploto you forgot to inculde Rasho and Beno on the top of that list.

[mardigan]

Who the fuck is CB4?
Chris Bosh

[E20]

Chris Bosh
Yeah I know, I realized it a little too late and had to edit my post. :oops :downspin:

[ploto]

Why are people getting their panties in a bunch? All I said was that Duncan is considered by many to be more a center this year than a PF. That does not take anything away from all he has done as a PF. It isn't some insult. I have seen people project Tim as an all-NBA first team center.

[mardigan]

1) Duncan
2)Dirk
3)KG
4)Bosh
5)Boozer
6)Brand
7)Gasol
8)Amare
9)O'Neal
10)C-Webb/Sheed tie
Honorable mention-Randolph

[mardigan]

Why are people getting their panties in a bunch? All I said was that Duncan is considered by many to be more a center this year than a PF. That does not take anything away from all he has done as a PF. It isn't some insult. I have seen people project Tim as an all-NBA first team center.
Who is getting their panties in a bunch?

[Roxsfan]

How could Chuck Hayes NOT make this list :rolleyes :smokin































He can even dunk :clap
http://www.lahora.com.gt/06/04/18/textos/deporte/i9a.jpg

And he has a serial-killer twisted angry look to him: :p:

http://www.nba.com/media/act_chuck_hayes.jpg

[BgT]

Ploto you forgot to inculde Rasho and Beno on the top of that list.

Who the fuck is CB4?

Yeah I know, I realized it a little too late and had to edit my post. :oops :downspin:
It's funny how people rush into someone, trying to insult that person with pathetic attempts - and end up correcting their post in a hurry, when they realize they might have not appeared as smart as they thought they would. :lol E20, why are you trying to humiliate ploto, did she kill your mother or something?

And just for the record, I don't agree with ploto on that one, I think Duncan is PF, but he is forced to play C much more than he'd liked to.

[Cry Havoc]

Why are people getting their panties in a bunch? All I said was that Duncan is considered by many to be more a center this year than a PF. That does not take anything away from all he has done as a PF. It isn't some insult. I have seen people project Tim as an all-NBA first team center.

Because of the heavy-handed way with which you initially made the post in the thread. "Three pages and you haven't mentioned a simple 'fact' yet? You all must be idiots." is the message very clearly conveyed by your first post. Not to mention the fact that while you're calling others out for missing such a simple idea, you're still wrong.

PG - Parker
SG - Finley
SF - Bowen
PF - Duncan
C - Elson

How much more clearly can that be made out for you?
Duncan might be projected at center, but that's due to the incredible availablility of Forwards in the league and the absolute dearth of quality centers. Duncan is arguably the best post defender in the league right now, therefore he gets the "center" role for the NBA, as centers typically are more defensively oriented than a PF. It's really very simple.

[Kobulingam]

Bosh is growing as a player. He is so frigging smart.
He will be #1 on this list in a few years.

In yesterday night's game the Wolves were all over Bosh, so he only took 9 shots (and for the rest he drove in to get the foul calls). He kept passing out of double teams (which leads to more passes) and a lot of open shots. He never looked to force anything and still managed 16 points, 13 rebounds. He made sure the shooters on the outside who were "hot" stayed "hot." And his defense is so underrated.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand kept shooting and bricking, shooting and bricking..... Those days when Kobe is bricking he should change his game and concentrate more on other things to help the team win (like MJ did). Instead Kobe keeps bricking.... he wasted 21 friggen shots. Kobe should have stopped taking tough outside shots and drove in to get to the free throw line. And mix it up with set ups for teammates.


This is offtopic:

Does anyone notice how Bryant isn't great at making changes to his game during games? It's like he can only be a "pass first player" or "shoot first player" for a complete game. If Phil tells him to start passing, he does that excessively for a game. If Phil tells him to start shooting (like a few weeks ago), Kobe shoots and shoots and shoots. One very talented, but not very bright person he is (nowhere near MJ).

[bdictjames]

I like Bosh. But more rebounds and blocks for him would be nice.

Yup, I've noticed that about Kobe. He doesn't have that all-around game like Lebron and Wade do.

[mardigan]

Bosh is great, reminds me of a weak version of D-Rob without the great d

[Kobulingam]

I like Bosh. But more rebounds and blocks for him would be nice.

Yup, I've noticed that about Kobe. He doesn't have that all-around game like Lebron and Wade do.

Not sure about Lebron yet. Wade yes. But nobody is near MJ. MJ could have a piss poor shooting game, and he would decide to shut down the players he was guarding and set up teammates with passes (and drive a lot more to get freethrows).

You want more than 11 rebounds a game?
Only 3 NBA players average in the 12s in rebounds a game.
Nobody averages 13.

KG adds some garbage rebounds to his totals (defensive rebounds teammates could have grabbed but KG made an effort to grab it anyways). Someone like Duncan doesn't bother with this.

[mardigan]

Not sure about Lebron yet. Wade yes. But nobody is near MJ. MJ could have a piss poor shooting game, and he would decide to shut down the players he was guarding and set up teammates with passes (and drive a lot more to get freethrows).

You want more than 11 rebounds a game?
Only 3 NBA players average in the 12s in rebounds a game.
Nobody averages 13.

KG adds some garbage rebounds to his totals (defensive rebounds teammates could have grabbed but KG made an effort to grab it anyways). Someone like Duncan doesn't bother with this.
Lebron will be better than MJ.

[Kobulingam]

Lebron will be better than MJ.

Offensively? Maybe.

Offensively and Defensively as a package? Doubt it.

[mardigan]

Offensively? Maybe.

Offensively and Defensively as a package? Doubt it.
Well, yeah, I guess it will be debatable, but its just hard to overlook Brons stats that he has put up this far in his career, 27 points, 7 boards, 6 assists, 2 steals and 1 block a game, ridiculous

[BgT]

I like Bosh. But more rebounds and blocks for him would be nice.
I don't know why so many people think that Bosh is a bad rebounder, I hear it all the time. He is amongst top rebounders in the league. His last 13 games are:
13-11-13-10-11-16-14-18-11-5-16-7-19 rebounds. I don't think that's bad at all. His average is lower because of the first part of the season when the whole team played bad. He was averaging like 5 rebounds per game.

[mardigan]

I don't know why so many people think that Bosh is a bad rebounder, I hear it all the time. He is amongst top rebounders in the league. His last 13 games are:
13-11-13-10-11-16-14-18-11-5-16-7-19 rebounds. I don't think that's bad at all. His average is lower because of the first part of the season when the whole team played bad. He was averaging like 5 rebounds per game.
He's averaging damn near 11, what more to people want from him? Give the Texas boy a break

[Kobulingam]

I don't know why so many people think that Bosh is a bad rebounder, I hear it all the time. He is amongst top rebounders in the league. His last 13 games are:
13-11-13-10-11-16-14-18-11-5-16-7-19 rebounds. I don't think that's bad at all. His average is lower because of the first part of the season when the whole team played bad. He was averaging like 5 rebounds per game.


That's because Bosh had plantar fascitis during the start of the season but kept playing through it. But *luckily* he later injured his knee and was forced to rest and during the rest period they treated BOTH his injuries and his plantar fascitis was cured even before the knee. When he came back his knee was still sore so it took him another month to really get the knee healthy. It was worth it since that rest period cured his p.f. fully.

Another topic: I am still wondering why Spurs didn't rest Duncan for a month or so to get rid of his plantar fascitis last season. Everyone knows that a month or so rest is what's needed, there is no other cure. They(Pop) should have rested Duncan earlier in the season - Spurs would have 4 rings right now. Stubborn Duncan (who doesn't have a med degree) wouldn't allow them to rest him, and they (Pop) listened.

[Cry Havoc]

Everyone knows that a month or so rest is what's needed, there is no other cure. Stubborn Duncan (who doesn't have a med degree) wouldn't allow them to rest him, and they (Pop) listened.

So you have a med degree now? Because otherwise, how could you make such a general statement like, "everyone knoooows P.F. can heal in a month." And then you chastise Duncan in the same paragraph for making assumptions about the medical field.

Hogwash. That's like saying all dislocated shoulders can heal in 6 weeks. There were numerous reports last year stating that Duncan's P.F. was the sort that would take a minimum of 3 months to heal, if not most of the regular season. Pop would have LOVED to sit him merely a month and had Duncan at full strength, but he didnt' have that option.

[Kobulingam]

I don't have a med degree (but someone in my home does, which doesn't matter since I never consulted anyone before forming opinoins on this matter). Anyways, it doesn't matter because the fact is: they never rested Duncan. Another fact is: Duncan refused to be kept out of games. Another fact is: Pop listened to Duncan. Another fact is: rest heals p.f.

[Cry Havoc]

Another fact is: rest heals p.f.

You cleverly avoid the exact issue at hand. Duncan is healthy now, so it's obvious that rest has benefitted him. However, that was not my counterpoint. It was that there were numerous articles and reports about Duncan's particular case of p.f. that made it impossible to heal in a short time. I even recall threads arguing about the logistics of resting him for a month prior to the playoffs, but it was concluded by many that it would do him little to no good according to his doctors, so he played through it. You think Pop is stupid enough to let the best post player in the league go out there on one good leg if there's a better option? Come on now. It would have taken months to heal. Any Spurs fan with a decent memory will tell you the same.

[Nashfan]

So Marion guards Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Michael Redd, etc. ? Does he shut them down too?


Yes, he does guard these guys and he also guards point guards such as Tony Parker and Sam Cassell. He does a pretty damn good job on limiting their scoring, depends on what you mean by shutting them down. He is a mutli-tasker on our team.

[Skip Bayless]

Lebron will be better than MJ.

um......hold on, lets count

Jordan 6 rings

Lebron :cry

[Cry Havoc]

um......hold on, lets count

Jordan 6 rings

Lebron :cry

He said "WILL" be better. Future tense. LeBron isn't even into his mid-20s yet. Lay off.

[Skip Bayless]

Lebron isnt even the best player on his own team. give me zydrunas instead

[mardigan]

He said "WILL" be better. Future tense. LeBron isn't even into his mid-20s yet. Lay off.
Thank you

[BgT]

He will not be better than Jordan.

[BUMP]

He said "WILL" be better. Future tense. LeBron isn't even into his mid-20s yet. Lay off.

its a Skip Bayless troll. Lay off

[Cry Havoc]

its a Skip Bayless troll. Lay off

Wow, really? Thanks. Didn't know that. :rolleyes