Mayhem in Detroit

[samikeyp]

It wasn't a bottle and not in the face...it was a plastic beer cup, the ones like you bye at SBC for $4 and it hit Artest in the chest....watch the video people before you make shit up.

[jcrod]

Duff, I've never made any comments on you idiotic posts on other topics, because I took as being young and not knowing better. And your seem to be getting it enough from eveybody else. But after reading all your takes on this, you are a punk and don't know when to STFU. Dude, don't comment on shit you have no earthly idea about.

[Kori Ellis]

There's no excuse for the players going into the stands in my opinion. Sure, the fans were wrong for throwing a plastic cup of beer but the players weren't in danger at that point. The only danger came when the Artest, Jack, Tinsley, Wallaces, Jones, Harrison, etc went in the stands.

Imagine the trauma for the kids there. I just can't side at all with the players on this. If things were being thrown at them, they should have headed to the locker room.

[ShoogarBear]

I want everyone who said "it's just liquid" to now say if someone threw it at you you would just wait for security.

Hey, did the Spurs play tonight?

[Jimcs50]

It wasn't a bottle and not in the face...it was a plastic beer cup, the ones like you bye at SBC for $4 and it hit Artest in the chest....watch the video people before you make shit up.

Mikey, Jim Gray reported that it was a bottle that hit Artest in the face,,,since he was right there, I took his word for it. I reported this first because I was watching it live, not on tape like you guys, I said what Gray told me.

[samikeyp]

There is no excuse for it but I can understand it. Doesn't mean its right or I condone it. Everyone was wrong here.

[Jimcs50]

There is no excuse for it but I can understand it. Doesn't mean its right or I condone it. Everyone was wrong here.

I was not wrong....speak for yourself.

:)

[samikeyp]

So Jim Gray can't be wrong?....I watched the video over and over...it was a blue beer cup to the chest.

[samikeyp]

My bad...

Everyone but Jim was wrong! :)

[Jimcs50]

So Jim Gray can't be wrong?....I watched the video over and over...it was a blue beer cup to the chest.


For all we knew, he got hit by a bottle first, then a beer cup. Gray said that Artest was hit in the face with a bottle, so I believed what he reported...he said he was sitting right next ti him...he should know...right?

[jcrod]

Everybody's at fault, Artest shouldn't have gone in. But I don't blame all the other players, they have to go in and take Artest out. When they went in, they started to get hit and once you get hit, you have to protect yourself. They shouldn't be blamed. I go back to what the IND coach said, he felt like he was fighting for his LIFE.

[samikeyp]

He also believes Kobe is the messiah.

[Jimcs50]

Also Tommy Nunez was hit by a full bottle of beer to the face and suffered a bruise to the face and had to be treated. Those bottle hurt man.

[TheWriter]

Artest ATTACKED the wrong guy!

[timvp]

This thread is too long to read. I'm just going to say that Artest, Jackson and O'Neal should be suspended for at least 20 games a piece. The crowd was in the wrong, but not that wrong. Artest got liquid poured on him ... it's not like he was hit by a chair.

I really hope that wasn't Mike Brown who threw a punch. He'd never get a head coaching job ... and he was so close to getting one.

Chuck Person to the rescue :smokin

[Morphgizmo]

Mikey, Jim Gray reported that it was a bottle that hit Artest in the face,,,since he was right there, I took his word for it. I reported this first because I was watching it live, not on tape like you guys, I said what Gray told me.

In the last report I heard from Gray, he stated that it was "a plastic cup or maybe a bottle", so who knows.

I've seen the replay a million times. Looked like a blue plastic Dixie cup to me.

[samikeyp]

I felt bad for Jones....he was trying to help and some big ass dude came up behind him and popped him in the head.

They should find the fans, pull their season tickets and file charges against them

[Kori Ellis]

Artest shouldn't have gone in. But I don't blame all the other players, they have to go in and take Artest out. When they went in, they started to get hit and once you get hit, you have to protect yourself.

Jack didn't go in to pull Artest out. He went in to fight. Tinsley and Jones, yes it looked like they were trying to pull them out.

[samikeyp]

It looked like Brown was trying to help.

Jackson went nuts! What the hell was that? You get a little activator in your hair and you go crazy!

[Kori Ellis]

I felt bad for Jones....he was trying to help and some big ass dude came up behind him and popped him in the head.

They should find the fans, pull their season tickets and file charges against them

That black guy in the suit that popped JOnes and other players was not a fan. He had an NBA credential around his neck.

[timvp]

Tinsley went into the hallway and then came out with like a crowbar or something. He was going to try to kill someone it looked like.

Luckily Chuck Person saved the day.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

ESPN pointed out that former Bad Boy Rick Mahorn was trying to break things up, too.

[Jimcs50]

Oh, you can see the cup, but was that the first thing that hit him? It looked like when the cup hit him, he was already jumping up.

[samikeyp]

Kori is right....before Artest went into the stands....Jack was jawing with Coleman and others, he untucked his jersey and put his fists up. Talking shit the whole time.

[exstatic]

They should find the fans, pull their season tickets and file charges against them

Agreed. They should also suspend JO, Artest, and Jax for the year.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/DTP10511200423.jpeg

[infinite styles]

O'Neal put some stank on that punch on the fat boy

[timvp]

Jackson is a fake hard ass. He plays the role well ... but he's just looking for ways to get into fights.

[samikeyp]

It looked like a guy in a tan or brown shirt popped Jones. Didn't see the guy in the suit

[Duff McCartney]

Tinsley went into the hallway and then came out with like a crowbar or something. He was going to try to kill someone it looked like.

I don't think it was a crowbar....I think he was using one of those things that ushers use to pick up trash...the broom and trash collecter deal.

[Jimcs50]

Am I good or what? I started the most popular thread in months.

:)

[jcrod]

That was no towel boy.

[ShoogarBear]

Jim raises a good point. We only see what's in the videotape. There's a possibility that something else could have been thrown before the blue cup, and that it might have been thrown by the guy Artest went after.

Of course, why let facts or the absence thereof get in the way of all our preconceived notions?

[samikeyp]

it almost makes up for the false trade thread....almost! :)

[ShoogarBear]

You're still no JUOTT.

[samikeyp]

its on ESPN news right now

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Of course, why let facts or the absence thereof get in the way of all our preconceived notions?


Wait, you want us to be responsible at a time like this? :lol

[jcrod]

O'Neal put some stank on that punch on the fat boy


It's funny after he gets hit all the guys back away from him.

[infinite styles]

http://mfile.akamai.com/12942/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2004/1120/3935750.200k.asx

full video

[whottt]

Bottomline, the guy who started throwing punches was Artest...the guy who suckerpunched Artest was trying to get him off a guy he probably could have killed.

This became a brawl because Artest is a hothead...had he let the security do it's job...it would have never been a brawl...

As for the actions of the fans...what are they supposed to do? Let Artest and Jackson kill that one guy? They were pounding his ass.

The guy that threw the beer and the guy that ran on the court were both in the wrong...but they weren't the ones that started throwing fists...that was Artest and Jack.

They turned this into a brawl...


And the guy in the brown suit throwing punches I am about 95% certain was Person...I thought it as Person as soon as I saw him and didn't even think about it being Mike Brown.


And Jax was looking for a fight...he was looking for one on the court before he ran into he stands.

If those players want to go up in th e stands and start throwing fists...they better be prepared to get their ass kicked...

Just like a fan who runs out onto the stadium...same exact thing...you go where you aren't supposed to be...and start throwing punches you better be prepared to get your ass kicked by the majority..and you probably deserve it.

[Jimcs50]

Something tells me they are going to pull the NBA League Pass commercials with Artest in them. :)

[samikeyp]

nothing happened to Artest until the cup hit him.....a big black guy in a gray pullover sweater popped Jones

[Morphgizmo]

Oh, you can see the cup, but was that the first thing that hit him? It looked like when the cup hit him, he was already jumping up.

Anything is possible Jim, but it looked like one object to me.

Nope, just saw it again. It was just that one cup, and then the reaction. In fact, he flinches right before it gets there.

[samikeyp]

and one of the players kids went away in tears....way to go you bunch of dumbasses.

[jcrod]

Bottomline, the guy who started throwing punches was Artest...the guy who suckerpunched Artest was trying to get him off a guy he probably could have killed.

This became a brawl because Artest is a hothead...had he let the security do it's job...it would have never been a brawl...

As for the actions of the fans...what are they supposed to do? Let Artest and Jackson kill that one guy? They were pounding his ass.

The guy that threw the beer and the guy that ran on the court were both in the wrong...but they weren't the ones that started throwing fists...that was Artest and Jack.

They turned this into a brawl...


And the guy in the brown suit throwing punches I am about 95% certain was Person...I thought it as Person as soon as I saw him and didn't even think about it being Mike Brown.

The players were the ones who turned this into a brawl...

And Jax was looking for a fight...he was looking for one on the court before he ran intot he stands.

Wrong.

[pooh]

And yet Pooh is quiet about all this...

[samikeyp]

Yeah it wasn't a towel boy...it was a fan who came on the court...dipstick.

[Jimcs50]

Wallace was inciting the crowd, that is why he will get at least 10 games.

[samikeyp]

because Pooh is smart enough to know that blame is everywhere here not just Indy...not just Detroit.

[samikeyp]

Which Wallace?

[Duff McCartney]

Yeah it wasn't a towel boy...it was a fan who came on the court...dipstick.

The guy who Jermaine punched was a towel boy...the guy that Artest fought with was a fan.

The towel boy was trying to break up the fight between Artest and the fan...and then he fell down on the floor, and when he tried to get up...O'Neal sucker punched him.

[Jimcs50]

Ben

[Phenomanul]

This is why I am glad we don't have Stephen Jackson....

Damn (this is probably as bad a curse word as you will ever 'hear' me use).... I have tickets to the Pistons-Spurs game Dec. 3.... I'll trade them for tickets to the Sonics game on Dec. 8.

I hope they ban beer anywhere near the court across the NBA...

This behavior is completely unacceptable, idiotic and just plain not worth it...

[samikeyp]

Ok....Mike Brown was holding back a guy in a blue Pistons shirt trying to get to Artest and the guy in blue was swinging.

[FearDaFro]

Hmm, anyone heard from FearDaFro?

Sadly, this is my 1st post at the new forum......

I couldnt be any MORE #*&%ing embarrassed. God, what a black eye for detroit.

The real irony is, Ben is the NICEST guy on Earth. He's NEVER done anything CLOSE to this before.

I'm sure he feels worse about this than anyone. This is the first and LAST time he'll ever screw up like this.

WHAT THE **** WERE YOU THINKING, BEN!

That said, you cant blame ben for the riot, what he did has been done in 29 other NBA arenas, without this happening.

My guess is that the next pistons-pacers game in detroit will be closed to all fans.

And these guys play on christmas day, too. Ugh.

[exstatic]

Thanks, styles. Looking at that, the stupid ass Indy players were lucky to get out alive.

[samikeyp]

It was not a towel boy...it was a fan wearing a Pistons jersey.

[Phenomanul]

Damn (again) I also have Ben Wallace on my Fantasy Team... :pctoss

[Jimcs50]

They should just have the fans smoke pot....nobody ever fights when they are just smoking pot.

[whottt]

Wrong.

Artest wasn't defending himself when he went into the stands.

He got hit with a plastic bottle and the incident was over and security would have removed the person that did so.

You guys are fucking crazy if you think the players have a right to go into the stands and start beating the shit out of the first guy they see because they got wet.

So, no, you're wrong. Rod.

[infinite styles]

http://members.rogers.com/goldquest/chillin.JPG

let the games begin :lol

[whottt]

And Jim...you are on crack if you think this is going to hurt the NBA...I actually thought the whole thing was pretty enjoyable...

Saying this will hurt the NBA is like saying Artest's past escapades would hurt his popularity...guess what? He made the All Star Game last year.

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

[pooh]

because Pooh is smart enough to know that blame is everywhere here not just Indy...not just Detroit.

That and I have a headache. :) Yes, the blame is on both sides. It will be interesting to see how security is at games after tonight.

[GoSpurs21]

I think criminal charges for Artest, Jackson and Jermaine.

Isn't Jermaine the one who knocked out the ball boy?That guy looked pretty old to be a ball boy, plus he looked like he was charging O'Neal

[goliath]

Disgusting. Players and fans are both to blame.

But I gotta agree with Sequ. Players can never, never, never go into the stands and assault a fan.

And self-defense is preposterous. First, you can only defend yourself with equal force. Getting hit with a bottle, cup whatever doesnt give you the right to beat the crap out of anyone you think threw it under the guise of self defense. Also I dont know if self-defense flys witht the security , cops, ect in the arena. If you hit me and theres a cop in the immediate vicinity, self defense usually doesnt allow my to attack you back. Im suppost to go to the cop and get help.

Also self-defense is to protect yourself from further danger, not a rationale to beat the crap outta someone. Which Artest and Jax did. Getting hit by a bottle, cup, whatever doesnt necessarily mean you're in immediate danger and can defend yourself.

Maxwell got 12 games for going into the stands and that wasnt half as bad as tonight.

Any player that left the bench should get 2 games regardless of what they did.

Any player that went into the crowd should get 5-10 regardless of what they did when they were in the crowd.

Wallace should get 10 games for starting the fight with Artest.

Artest, Oneil, and Jax all should get a minimum of 20 games.

Artest,, jax, Oneil, fan who threw the beer, big guy who coldcocked Artest should all get criminal charges brought against them.

League needs to breing the hammer down on the players involved and set an example.

[infinite styles]

Thanks, styles. Looking at that, the stupid ass Indy players were lucky to get out alive.

i said it earlier....SJax needed to get his ass kicked for wearing that hair. Boy got shit-locks.

[Kori Ellis]

It was not a towel boy...it was a fan wearing a Pistons jersey.

There's two different people. The guy that walks up to Artest in the cap that Artest hits, then a guy in a suit hits. Then someone else comes to his rescue (towel boy?) and that guy gets hit by Jermaine.

[samikeyp]

I think everyone who has any Piston or Pacer on their fantasy team should think about substitutions. :)

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I think everyone who has any Piston or Pacer on their fantasy team should think about substitutions. :)

I've got Artest and Rip. How do you think I feel right about now?

[Goddess Spur]

I just watched a video of the whole thing, and damn.. that's one of the craziest things I've ever seen. :wow

[Kori Ellis]

I have Stephen Jackson in more than one league. :(

[samikeyp]

The guy who JO popped was wearing a Pistons jersey and looked a little old to be a towel boy. I don't think towel boys/girls can wear jerseys because of league rules about players in uniform and such.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Those SJax for Charlie Ward trades are looking REAL good right about now, I bet.

[samikeyp]

that's one of the craziest things I've ever seen.

that is the one thing I think we all agree on!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The guy who JO popped was wearing a Pistons jersey and looked a little old to be a towel boy. I don't think towel boys/girls can wear jerseys because of league rules about players in uniform and such.

He looked like he was part of Kid Rock's crew.

Why couldn't Artest have slugged him?

[samikeyp]

:lmao

[Kori Ellis]

Whoever he was, fan, towel boy or whatever, he can sue big time.

Also, I just rewatched and rewatched and I still can't tell if that's Chuck Person or Mike Brown who goes in there. I hope it's not Mike Brown.

[ShoogarBear]

Nah, if you got a Pacer bench player, you got some fat stats coming.

[samikeyp]

true but isn't coming off the bench like that an automatic suspension?

[jcrod]

Artest wasn't defending himself when he went into the stands.

He got hit with a plastic bottle and the incident was over and security would have removed the person that did so.

You guys are fucking crazy if you think the players have a right to go into the stands and start beating the shit out of the first guy they see because they got wet.

So, no, you're wrong. Rod.


No Whott, your wrong. I never said he was defending himself. I said he was wrong for going in. The FANS turned this into a brawl, by trying to fight with all the players. Artest wasn't going in to fight with all of them, just one, multiple fans starting punching him and all the others. They are both wrong. But I only blame Artest and the Fans, no one else.

[exstatic]

Mikey, they'll stagger those so that they can always field at least an 8 man team.

[samikeyp]

that is what I figured. Interesting to see how this affects both teams and for how long.

[infinite styles]

Mike Brown went into the stands to pull a player out of the brawl. He didn't do anything but try to get Artest out.

[timvp]

Anyone who is trying to deflect blame away from Artest needs to watch the video again.

[jcrod]

Artest hit another guy that went on the court...the towel boy tried to break it up. He gets knocked on the floor and then O'Neal punches him when he tries to get up.


He was not the towe/ball boy, he was a fan trying to fight with Artest. Look at the replays.
.
.
.
Just saw it again, it wasn't the same guy, but he was no towel boy, more like the bother or buddy of the guy he was fighting.

[goliath]

If i was the NBA Id try to give Artest some kind of indefinate suspension and make him get some type of counseling before he could be reinstated based on his history of eratic and, sometimes violent, behavior.

[samikeyp]

agreed. he is not blameless.

[infinite styles]

If i was the NBA Id try to give Artest some kind of indefinate suspension and make him get some type of counseling before he could be reinstated based on his history of eratic and, sometimes violent, behavior.

Yeah but Stern's business mentality would allow Artest to play in the remaining 3 games against Detroit. Most watched games of the season will be those three.

[TheWriter]

Whoever he was, fan, towel boy or whatever, he can sue big time.

Also, I just rewatched and rewatched and I still can't tell if that's Chuck Person or Mike Brown who goes in there. I hope it's not Mike Brown.

Goes in where?

It's Brown who's holding Artest back.

Person has gained about 100 pounds... :lol

[whottt]

Ok I got the entire thing and all the replays recorded on my puter...

The so called towelboy...I don't think he was a towelboy after watching it again...there were two fans that went down on the court...they almost look like brothers...the one in the dark shirt got in Artest's face and the one in the white Piston's jersey shoved Artest off of him...that made it look like he was towelboy because he is holding a towel...but I think he was with the guy that went down on the court and tried to pick a fight with Artest.

And it was definitely Person that beat this guys ass...Mike Brown has on a greyish suit(kinda like the one Reggie Miller is wearing)...Person had on the brown suit.


And the guy that started all this did end up getting his ass beat by both Jax and Artest...

Artest went over to beat the guy in the glasses ass...the guy who starred it came up behind him...the guy with the glasses through his coke in Artest's face and Jax went over there and just started wailing on him...then the guy who started it started throwing punches and some other guy did too...but Jax and Artest both beat on the guy who started it...they both got some good shots in on that guy.

[samikeyp]

Kori nailed it....the guy who popped Jones had a credential....he just got it revoked.

[adrienne]

Artest was stupid to go after the fans, and deserves whatever suspension and fines he gets. The Detroit fans were even more stupid for provoking guys that are bigger and in better shape then will ever be in their life, and deserve just about everything they got.

Really classy to keep throwing stuff at the players too.

[whottt]

No Whott, your wrong. I never said he was defending himself. I said he was wrong for going in. The FANS turned this into a brawl, by trying to fight with all the players. Artest wasn't going in to fight with all of them, just one, multiple fans starting punching him and all the others. They are both wrong. But I only blame Artest and the Fans, no one else.


Yeah well Jax was behind him swinging wildly.

What you fail to realize is that Artest and Jax were beating the shit out of an innocent guy.

It's illegal to witness a crime and do nothing to stop it you know.....I may be exaggerating just a bit but those fans weren't just going to sit there and let those players beat some guy. Jax and Artest were both throwing punches before any fan threw them.

[samikeyp]

rarely do I agree with Bill Walton but he said it best...no winners here.

[smeagol]

Artest is a crazy fvck but . . . SJax is not far behind him.

[smeagol]

Did you guys see the old lady at the bottom of a pile of people?

[samikeyp]

that was sad.

[ShoogarBear]

It's illegal to witness a crime and do nothing to stop it you know.

False. There is not an ordinance or law in the country that requires you to risk yourself by doing anything while a crime is being committed. Reporting it and/or being a witness is all that's necessary.

[grjr]

Did you guys see the old lady at the bottom of a pile of people?

I thought that was Teddy Kennedy.

[Kori Ellis]

Did you guys see the old lady at the bottom of a pile of people?

That was horrible. And the kids comforting each other and being scared sucked too.

[whottt]

After looking at it yet again...I don't think the blue guy in the old school jersey and cap started it...I think it was the guy in the white shirt that started it and the guy in the blue jersey and cap was trying to break it up and got pissed.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That picture of the little boy crying is what's going to stick out through all this.

[Jimcs50]

The lawyers are going to be the only real winners here.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The lawyers are going to be the only real winners here.

I think Jason Thompson just arrived in Detroit.

[Jimcs50]

No more beer after halftime for sure. That should be the case anyway, because of drunk drivers.

[smeagol]

The guy I don't understand is SJax. He was not party to the initial brawl between players (Artest - Wallace) but was from the getgo willing to fight with everybody.

Then, when Artest is hit with the glass of beer, he is the second one in the stands fighting with the fans.

I'm really happy the Spurs didn't pick him up!

[infinite styles]

And it was definitely Person that beat this guys ass...Mike Brown has on a greyish suit(kinda like the one Reggie Miller is wearing)...Person had on the brown suit.

That wasn't Person it was Anthony Johnson....He and Person had the same color suit on. Person came in later from a different angle to try to stop the players.

[Jimcs50]

Jackson can not win, first he gets screwed last year, now he will lose at least 1/4 of his paycheck plus all the money he will lose in lawsuits....I am soooo glad we did not keep this idiot.

[SequSpur]

I think the kid in the green shirt threw the cup.

[Jimcs50]

Chuck was trying to help, not fight. Hw was helping ONeil get off the court and was sheilding him from debris....The Rifleman is a class act.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I've heard "Fans were hitting back" like they shouldn't have from the ESPN crew.

If the players can hit, so can the fans if attacked.

[samikeyp]

If a fan comes on the court, even if players go into the stands...is that fan fair game? Discuss.

[smeagol]

Jim, your comments about Artest getting hurt by the cup with beer are pure BS.

That cup didn't even tickle him . . .

[samikeyp]

the police officer talking to Jim Gray now just said one person was sent to the hospital but did not elaborate.

[Kori Ellis]

That wasn't Person it was Anthony Johnson....He and Person had the same color suit on. Person came in later from a different angle to try to stop the players.

I don't think it was Anthony Johnson. It was an older guy and he threw a punch.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If a fan comes on the court, even if players go into the stands...is that fan fair game? Discuss.

No doubt.

These days, you just don't know.

Remember Monica Seles.

[samikeyp]

The guy I don't understand is SJax. He was not party to the initial brawl between players (Artest - Wallace) but was from the getgo willing to fight with everybody.

I'm telling you...its the activator in his hair! It causes the headband to be too tight.

[samikeyp]

I think a fan deserves what they get if they go on the court...but that is me personally.

[SequSpur]

This topic just might beat out the Kidd to SA topic.

[Kori Ellis]

Just a week or so ago, Jackson was in the press saying that he'd "throw down" for anyone on the team from Artest and JO to the 12th man.

I guess he was true to his word.

Idiot.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Monica Seles, Tom Gamboa, Laz Diaz...

[whottt]

False. There is not an ordinance or law in the country that requires you to risk yourself by doing anything while a crime is being committed. Reporting it and/or being a witness is all that's necessary.

Um bitch, I guess you never heard of the law about it being illegal to correct whottt when he says something wrong.

Don't do it again or you will be charged with failure to stop and render aid and you will be made an acessory after the fact.

[timvp]

If the NBA doesn't come down hard, then this could happen again. You suspend them for 30 games and no player would think about going into the stands again.

[SequSpur]

Stephen Jackson is definitely a balla. :lmao

[smeagol]

I'm telling you...its the activator in his hair! It causes the headband to be too tight.
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Stephen Jackson is definitely a balla. :lmao

Ghost is going to want to trade for him now.

[samikeyp]

If the NBA doesn't come down hard, then this could happen again. You suspend them for 30 games and no player would think about going into the stands again.

Amen.

[infinite styles]

Just a week or so ago, Jackson was in the press saying that he'd "throw down" for anyone on the team from Artest and JO to the 12th man.

I guess he was true to his word.

Idiot.

Did anybody hear him shout out "We ride together man" when he was walkin through the tunnel. SJax is a thug now ladies and gentlemen.....not 50 Cent type or Suge Knight type....but more like R. Kelly type!
:fro

[timvp]

Chuck Person kept this from going into an all-out riot.

Props.

:smokin

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If the NBA doesn't come down hard, then this could happen again. You suspend them for 30 games and no player would think about going into the stands again.

Roughly $2.5M+ for SJax if he went out for 30. You're right.

I just don't think even that would hold them back enough.

I would not be surprised for SJax or Artest to be out for the season.

[E20]

Will Rasheed Wallace recieve any kind of punishment?

[iminlakerland]

What i have seen over and over is disgusting. I can not believe how classless and trashy some people can be. I'm sorry Ben Wallace over reacted and he continued the original altercation when it should of been over. He needs to be held accountable for it.

I am by no way a fan of Ron Artest but if i was in that position i would of probably reacted the same way. I dont care what was thrown at me. When your adrenaline is pumping im sorry you do not think and you react. Folks Ron Artest was just laying there after he not only got pushed, choked and hit. I'd be outraged and on top of that having stuff chucked at me forget that. The fans that threw stuff or hit people should be prosecuted to the highest extent.

When someone threatens you in your work place how would you react? The players were sitting ducks out there. It was ridiculous. Where were the PA announcers? Could they have not said anything? I am ashamed to call myself an NBA fan after tonight. I am still appaled!

Both Players, Fans, Referees and the entire league should be ashamed of their actions. This is in no way good for the league or any fan.

[whottt]

That wasn't Person it was Anthony Johnson....He and Person had the same color suit on. Person came in later from a different angle to try to stop the players.


Ahh it could be...but Person definitely helped him out still...in the same color suit. I know I saw Person there...before they even announced it I saw him.

I am 100% certain that it wasn't Mike Brown though...totally different color suits.

[smeagol]

Just a week or so ago, Jackson was in the press saying that he'd "throw down" for anyone on the team from Artest and JO to the 12th man.

I guess he was true to his word.

Idiot.

Kori, knowing how much you love SJax (I remember you said somewhere you cried when he left the Spurs), this incident must really hurt.

[SequSpur]

What about endorsements? Major impact?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

RE: 'Sheed

Probably 2-4 games for going into the stands. He did try to calm things down numerous times.

[samikeyp]

probably not...I think he was on the court when all this happened. If he was on the bench and came out onto the floor then yes.

[timvp]

As bad as this is, I don't think it'd happen in any other arena. If players went into the stands in the SBC Center, the fans would be sprinting for the exits. No one down there is going to stand up to an NBA player.

Detroit is a different type of city.

[whottt]

What i have seen over and over is disgusting. I can not believe how classless and trashy some people can be. I'm sorry Ben Wallace over reacted and he continued the original altercation when it should of been over. He needs to be held accountable for it.

I am by no way a fan of Ron Artest but if i was in that position i would of probably reacted the same way. I dont care what was thrown at me. When your adrenaline is pumping im sorry you do not think and you react. Folks Ron Artest was just laying there after he not only got pushed, choked and hit. I'd be outraged and on top of that having stuff chucked at me forget that. The fans that threw stuff or hit people should be prosecuted to the highest extent.

When someone threatens you in your work place how would you react? The players were sitting ducks out there. It was ridiculous. Where were the PA announcers? Could they have not said anything? I am ashamed to call myself an NBA fan after tonight. I am still appaled!

Both Players, Fans, Referees and the entire league should be ashamed of their actions. This is in no way good for the league or any fan.


That's great but what do you say to the innocent fan Artest beat the shit out of?


No justification for it.


Artest got wet....

An innocent man got beaten by him...that's worse of the two...and it doesn't happen if Artest doesn't go into the stands.

You may want to do something but that doesn't make it ok for you to do it.

[ShoogarBear]

Um bitch, I guess you never heard of the law about it being illegal to correct whottt when he says something wrong.

Shit, then I might be eligible for a life sentence.

Bioyatch.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

As bad as this is, I don't think it'd happen in any other arena. If players went into the stands in the SBC Center, the fans would be sprinting for the exits. No one down there is going to stand up to an NBA player.

Detroit is a different type of city.

I think SW would come down and get some punches in.

[timvp]

What about endorsements? Major impact?

Probably not.

In fact, Stephen Jackson might get a shoe deal out of this.

[whottt]

Shit, then I might be eligible for a life sentence.

Bioyatch.


Yeah and you don't see Tim Durk back in the Coyote suit now do you? Don't think I've forgotten that thread.

[SequSpur]

As bad as this is, I don't think it'd happen in any other arena. If players went into the stands in the SBC Center, the fans would be sprinting for the exits. No one down there is going to stand up to an NBA player.

Detroit is a different type of city.


:lmao

Exactly, lorie and I were talking about that... The fans here would probably ask for autographs and pictures.

[infinite styles]

Ahh it could be...but Person definitely helped him out still...in the same color suit. I know I saw Person there...before they even announced it I saw him.

I am 100% certain that it wasn't Mike Brown though...totally different color suits.


It was hard to tell but IMO it looked like Johnson. Mike Brown was nowhere near the scene and basically all hell had broke loose.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't at all understand anyone saying "I would have react that way" in regards to Artest. (I'm not just talking to you, Marie, like 20 people have said it)

He had a beer thrown at him -- big frickin' deal. He wasn't in danger or threatened and if he really thought that he was .. he should have got his ass up and gone to the locker room.

He's nearly a frickin' psycho. If he is supposed to be on meds and he's not, then he shouldn't be allowed to play until he is. And it's time for the Pacers organization to step up and get him help. He has a wife and children. And his anger problem is obviously no where near being in control. Get him help and get him off the basketball court.

[dcole50]

Exactly. Well said, whott. And if you can't control your adrenaline rush to the point that you attack innocent fans, then you don't belong in the NBA.

He got hit with a plastic cup and liquid while laying on the scorer's table. Sorry, I don't see justification for attacking an innocent fan.

Edit:


He had a beer thrown at him -- big frickin' deal. He wasn't in danger or threatened and if he really thought that he was .. he should have got his ass up and gone to the locker room.
Again, well said. If he was really hurt, he should have gone to the locker room and not sprawled himself on the scorer's table in a hostile environment. He was just trying to get Ben heated and ejected.

And, like I said earlier .. I have gotten in a dispute with someone at a game and had a beer thrown at me. I didn't hit people near me. I said a few choice words to the guy and just took off my jacket.

[samikeyp]

As bad as this is, I don't think it'd happen in any other arena. If players went into the stands in the SBC Center, the fans would be sprinting for the exits. No one down there is going to stand up to an NBA player.

maybe NYC they might.

[timvp]

:lmao

Exactly, lorie and I were talking about that... The fans here would probably ask for autographs and pictures.

:rollin

[E20]

I saw Wallace try to sort out the fans and some Pacers. He was helping more than hurting but, that's just for my fantasy. What about Tinsely with that speaker pole probably around 5 games. I could see why Artest would go up in the stands. Not Stephen Jackson. Fred Jones was trying to help but he got punched in the neck like 4 times so he had a right to hit back (self defense). The fat dude with the Pistons jersey deserved what he got what were you doing on the court in the first place? JO was out of line punching him again. I feel sorry for the innocent bystanders and the kids/eldrely. Does this induce the image of a thug filled NBA?

Blame:
Ben Wallace: 60%
Fans: 30%
Artest: 10%

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Probably not.

In fact, Stephen Jackson might get a shoe deal out of this.

http://www.sports-memorabilia-collectibles-autographed.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/ali%20shoes.jpg

[ShoogarBear]

As bad as this is, I don't think it'd happen in any other arena.

Philly.

Probably no place else, though.

[SequSpur]

Its official.

This topic is hotter than Kidd to SA.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah and you don't see Tim Durk back in the Coyote suit now do you? Don't think I've forgotten that thread.

Ha. Maybe you haven't forgotten, but clearly you don't remember well. I never said anything about him getting back in the Coyote suit.

[samikeyp]

true...forgot about Philly.

I was going to say Jersey but there are not enough fans there to care!

[timvp]

Blame:
Ben Wallace: 60%
Fans: 30%
Artest: 10%

More like:

Ron Artest: 45%
Stephen Jackson: 45%
Ben Wallace: 5%
Jermaine O'Neal: 5%

[E20]

Artest's foul wasn't even that bad. The fan's induced it even more. Wallace overreacted. He got hit in the shoulder.

[infinite styles]

true...forgot about Philly.

I was going to say Jersey but there are not enough fans there to care!


:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

[timvp]

Philly and Detroit ... that's it. Maybe Memphis in 20 years.

[dcole50]

I just can't believe how ESPN is placing nearly all[/] blame on the fans and defending the players who [i]charged into the crowd.

Fans hit them once they charged into the crowd and hit other fans? Where's the outrage there? If a guy next to be was being beaten up by an athlete, I'd try to break it up (unless the athlete was like .. Shaq size ;)).

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

ESPN SportsNation Poll

1) Was this the ugliest incident of fan-player violence you can recall?

83.7% Yes
16.3% No

2) Which was the worst incident between fans and players?

68.1% Ron Artest and Pacers battle Detroit fans in the stands
25.9% Royals coach Tom Gamboa attacked on field in Chicago
6.1% Texas pitcher Frank Francisco throws chair into stands

3) Who is most to blame for Friday night's brawl in Detroit?

51.5% Detroit fans
33.6% Ron Artest
8.8% Ben Wallace
5.5% Detroit security
0.6% Referees

4) Do you fault Ron Artest for going into the stands after being hit from close range by a full cup of beer and other items?

53.2% Yes, he has to have a cooler head and let security handle it.
46.8% No, any person has a right to defend him or herself in that situation.

5) Do you fault other Pacers players for going into the stands after Artest reacted?

56.2% No, they've got to protect a teammate.
43.8% Yes, they weren't attacked but they escalated the situation.

6) What should happen to Ben Wallace?

53.0% Suspended 1-5 games
18.0% Monetary fine but no suspension
15.9% Suspended 6-10 games
13.1% Suspended more than 10 games

7) What should happen to Ron Artest?

41.4% Suspended more than 10 games
25.8% Suspended 1-5 games
16.6% Suspended 6-10 games
16.2% Monetary fine but no suspension

8) What should happen to Stephen Jackson?

32.5% Suspended more than 10 games
32.0% Suspended 1-5 games
20.0% Suspended 6-10 games
15.5% Monetary fine but no suspension

9) Should local authorities use videotape to prosecute unruly fans on any applicable charges relating to Friday's game?

59.3% Yes, anyone throwing anything at players or personnel
33.9% Yes, but only those involved in physical violence
6.8% No, keep it out of those kind of courts

10) How much of a role did alcohol play in Friday's brawl escalating out of control?

49.4% Somewhat responsible
37.1% Largely responsible
13.6% Barely played a role

11) When should beer sales end at NBA games?

39.6% After third quarter
39.5% Halftime
20.9% End of the game

12) Have you ever had too much to drink at a sporting event?

74.3% No
25.7% Yes

13) Should the NBA consider nearby neutral sites like Toledo, Louisville or Cincinnati for future Pistons-Pacers games?

81.2% No
18.8% Yes

14) Are fans hypocritical for blasting a loss of sportsmanship among professional athletes?

52.4% Yes. Have you been to a game lately? Fans have lost all civility.
47.6% No. It's only a small percentage of fans, compared to a larger percentage of athletes.

15) What did you think of the foul by Artest that started the incident?

41.1% It was a hard foul but that's about it.
33.9% Cheap shot. What was he doing fouling at all at that point?
25.1% Wallace was just sore about the score; fouls like that happen all the time.

16) What should happen to Jermaine O'Neal?

32.6% Suspended 1-5 games
27.7% Monetary fine but no suspension
23.6% Suspended more than 10 games
16.2% Suspended 6-10 games

Total Votes: 54,222

[E20]

Way to long to read. Ben Wallace IMO over reacted on a semi flagrant foul if he didn't do that this would have never happend. If it did happend Artest wasn't in any blame untill the beer cup incident and that was a fan's fault.

[ShoogarBear]

More like:

Ron Artest: 45%
Stephen Jackson: 45%
Ben Wallace: 5%
Jermaine O'Neal: 5%

C'mon timvp, NO BLAME on the fans? My jaw is dropping.

[Kori Ellis]

4) Do you fault Ron Artest for going into the stands after being hit from close range by a full cup of beer and other items?

53.2% Yes, he has to have a cooler head and let security handle it.
46.8% No, any person has a right to defend him or herself in that situation.

Stupid wording of the answers. Defend himself?? From what, beer bothering his contact lenses. He wasn't in danger until he went into the stands.

[whottt]

All this crap is nothing new....

Players have always thrown stuff into the stands when pissed at fans and fans have always thrown stuff at players....it's been going on as long as there's been fans and athletes.

Ty Cobb once beat the crap out of a one handed fan...he once kicked a pregneant woman in the stomach...

Albert Belle once threw a ball into the stands...

It happens in the Euro leagues all the time...

Crap this is tame by most International Soccer games. It's tame compared to what used to happen at Eagles and Browns games.



Bottom line...

If a fan gets on the court...he deserves an ass beating.

If a player goes into the stands...he also deserves an ass beating.

If a fan is stupid enough to run out on the field where he is outnumbered 10-1 he deserves what he gets...

Ditto a player who goes up into the stands.

[E20]

What would an average person do if they got beer thrown on them on a street? It's like that one dude said on ESPN:

I got hit by a beer cup and after that a cop came up and asked do you want to press charges for assault.

[SequSpur]

Ron Artest will always be the Center of controversy. Dude should go promote his rap album. He might be able to do it now.

[infinite styles]

I don't at all understand anyone saying "I would have react that way" in regards to Artest. (I'm not just talking to you, Marie, like 20 people have said it)

He had a beer thrown at him -- big frickin' deal. He wasn't in danger or threatened and if he really thought that he was .. he should have got his ass up and gone to the locker room.

I understand what your saying.....But the thing is we always say "Hey!!! Just walk away!" But sometimes you just can't. I'm not waying I condone what he did, but I understand. Fans can be down right nasty and degrading sometimes (I know I've been that way before) After a while you can't take it no more. This whole situation is just a terrible and sad day for the NBA. When someone says that they would do the same thing, try to take into consideration that you can't always walk away.

[timvp]

Detroit fans get some blame ... I was just talking about the players.

The NBA can't suspend Detroit's fans or anything.

[dcole50]

That's crazy. I don't see why people are letting Artest off the hook. He's a time bomb.

He's a grown man. He should be able to handle getting wet without assaulting fans. Does he start swinging his fists randomnly when it's raining outside. ;)

[ShoogarBear]

You know, if you adjust that ESPN poll for any partisan Detroit or Indiana votes (ie.e, no suspensions for Wallace or Artest/Jackson), I have to say that the distribution of opinions is very fair and reasonable.

[samikeyp]

They can pull their season tickets, well the team can. The NBA can get the team to do that.

[SequSpur]

Players like Oneal have to walk away. Image is everything.

[E20]

Steel cage match next time.
http://www.lenredkoles.com/Steel1.jpg

[samikeyp]

Sadly its the "street thug, I have to prove i'm a man" mentality that more and more young players have now. Takes a bigger man to walk away.

[whottt]

If you get hit by a beer you don't have the right to go an assault someone.

It's not self defense.

If some guy comes up and punches you and then runs away...if you go after him and beat his ass...you are also guilty of assault. It's not self defense if he isn't attacking you.

Artest should have waited for security and then pressed charges...he became guilty when he went into the stands when he wasn't being threatened.

[SequSpur]

This whole event centered around 2 people.

Ron Artest and Jim Gray.

Shit always happens when Jim Gray is around.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/image-196143-1658.jpg

[E20]

You can press charges but not assault. I guess Artests's emotion got to him with the confortation with Wallace and everything.

[E20]

http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/image-196143-1658.jpg

"Oh shit man, are you alright?"

[samikeyp]

"Gimme back my meds!"

[SequSpur]

Interesting how those camera dudes get right in on the action....

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

ESPN Boards...



The brotha just beat up all them white pu$$ies. Keep it up Ron!!!! Your the man

Death to White America

Long Live Black America


America is heading towards RACIAL WAR and BLACK AMERICA will WIN!!!


http://forums.espn.go.com/espn/thread?forumID=736&threadID=860240&lastPostID=3679923

Holy Shit.

[E20]

It's called zooming in from far away.

[samikeyp]

That's nice. :rolleyes

[E20]

JB go to any boards where the majority are morons and dont' know anything is HIGHlarious. I.E Yahoo, And1, ESPN etc.

[ShoogarBear]

All this crap is nothing new....

Players have always thrown stuff into the stands when pissed at fans and fans have always thrown stuff at players....it's been going on as long as there's been fans and athletes.


whottt demonstrates proof of the Shakespearian Monkey theorem.

Exactly right. In fact, this kind of stuff was not unheard of in the NBA in the 50s and early 60s.

If you want to go back even farther, basketball courts were actually surrounded by chain-link meshes (hence the term "cages"), which lead to some pretty nasty stuff:


When introduced, the cage made pro basketball a rough sport as players engaged in hockey-style body checks against the wire. Frenzied fans would stick hatpins and lit cigars through the cage and into opposing player's flesh.

Link (http://www.capitalcentury.com/1900.html)

[Kori Ellis]

Who threw the chair? A player throwing it at fans? Or fans at Artest?

[samikeyp]

Whoa! Tinsley came back out of the tunnel with a dustpan ( the kind with the long handle and scoop) and was ready to chuck it at someone.

[E20]

I wonder if he will get supsendned or fined. Maybe 5 game suspension. With a 25000 fine. We should have a Vbookie thread on this.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://grouchu.250free.com/wavs/riot.wav

[E20]

Dang man if Willie and co. Showed up with there buff selves Pacers and Pistons wouldn't stand a chance.

[whottt]

All I know is that one guy got some good shots in on Fred Jones...

But Jermaine O'Neal delivered the motherfucker of all punches. I have to give that fan credit for shaking it off as quickly as he did...because he got laid the fuck out.

Fans weren't the only ones throwing sucker punches...

[samikeyp]

and that was after he got popped by Artest. That shot by JO had ta hurt!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

But Jermaine O'Neal delivered the motherfucker of all punches. I have to give that fan credit for shaking it off as quickly as he did...because he got laid the fuck out.



http://www.videogameconnections.com/Merchant2/pictures/full/dvd/mafcdvd.jpg

Damn!

[ShoogarBear]

NBA players have never been known for being good fighters. Remember Darryl Dawkins vs. Maurice Lucas?

O'Neal's punch was somewhat embarrassing, given that he nearly tore his ACL falling down while he was delivering it.

[samikeyp]

somewhere, GW is proud. :spin

[whottt]

I think the guy in the brown suit that punched the fans might be Anthony Johnson after all...he has hair on the sides of his head as does the guy in the brown suit teeing off on that one fan...Person doesn't.

[iminlakerland]

I don't at all understand anyone saying "I would have react that way" in regards to Artest. (I'm not just talking to you, Marie, like 20 people have said it)

Lol Kori i know you werent just talking about me. But seriously i think in that situation everyone has lost their cool. I am in no way a fan of Ron Artest. I am dissapointed and get more and more upset the more i see that tape.

I do agree Ron Artest does have issues. But I dont know, i can see why he reacted the way he did. It is sad that innocent fans got in the way. He did overreact but i think many others would have as well. It's not just this happened only because its Ron Artest.

The entire situation on the whole is just horrible and sad. That old lady and the two little boys faces say it all. This is a total travesty. I know people are celebrating and laughing over this but its not joking matter. I cant believe how some supposed fans are handling this situation.

How are people in San Antonio reacting over this? We got people out here talking about the NBA should have more of this excitement. WTF?!?!?!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

O'Neal's punch was somewhat embarrassing, given that he nearly tore his ACL falling down while he was delivering it.

If that were true, talk about your poetic justice.

[Kori Ellis]

and that was after he got popped by Artest. That shot by JO had ta hurt!

It was two different fans. Artest hit one and JO hit the other.

[whottt]

and that was after he got popped by Artest. That shot by JO had ta hurt!

Nah it was two different guys...the one in the dark jersey got popped by Artest...the guy that got slugged by O'Neal was the one that the guy in the brown suit was wailing on.

[Kori Ellis]

I think the guy in the brown suit that punched the fans might be Anthony Johnson after all

That guy looked older than Anthony Johnson, but I didn't see his face clearly.

[samikeyp]

How are people in San Antonio reacting over this? We got people out here talking about the NBA should have more of this excitement.

You people are nuts! :)

I can only see the reaction on the board but I think most of us are stunned.

[whottt]

If I hear this idiot on ESPN say one more time that was Artest did was ok because he would have done the same...just because a cop once told him he could file assault charges for having something thrown at him doesn't mean that he has the right to go beat the crap out of someone that isn't threatening him.

[samikeyp]

I actually agree with SAS on something. I agree totally with his stance. Anthony and Legler are disagreeing with him and siding with the players. Understandable since they are former players.

[timvp]

This will probably come out wrong but this little fight probably brings the Pacers closer together. In some sick, twisted way, it was a bonding experience for the Pacers. Come playoff time, they won't face a harder opponent than the Pistons' fans.

[whottt]

I still think Jim is wrong...I think this fight will be about as bad for the NBA as it was for generating interest in a SpursTalk thread.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I still think Jim is wrong...I think this fight will be about as bad for the NBA as it was for generating interest in a SpursTalk thread.

The 34 guests should either login or create accounts!

Hi!

[SequSpur]

I see this as an end to the Artest career as a Pacer. I don't think the pacers will do jack.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I see this as an end to the Artest career as a Pacer. I don't think the pacers will do jack.

Somehow, I don't see the Kings doing a straight Peja/Artest deal now.

[Mr. Body]

All ya'll motherfuckers saying Artest shouldn't have defended himself are some suburban, pampered fools. Serious, you never had to defend yourselves in your life. If someone slapped you in the face, you'd head out the door, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. You have to realize these players more often than not come from backgrounds where they have to stand up for themselves against any slight, they have to be men. Artest and Jackson were men. Maybe a lack of perfect judgment, but they were protecting themselves against some cowardly, punk-ass behavior. Like those two fat-ass chubby kids who came out in Pistons jerseys trying to start shit with Artest on the floor. Got what they deserved - leveled. I hate those frat boy types in the stands thinking they can lob beers at players and not get their noses taken off. Where's the respect? And the dumb-ass cops trying to pepper spray the players before they pepper spray the fans.

This reminds me of those idiots who get themselves killed every year in Yellowstone encouraging their kids to walk up and pet a moose or something, a bear, and get themselves wiped out. People have no respect for anything and don't see consequences for their behavior. This was all caused by idiotic fans.

[Kori Ellis]

There will be a point when the Pacers organization will have had enough of Artest and will do anything to move him. Is this that point? I don't know. But they are a decent organization and his continual psycho behavior and disrespect of everyone around him is an outrage.

[Kori Ellis]

All ya'll motherfuckers saying Artest shouldn't have defended himself are some suburban, pampered fools. Serious, you never had to defend yourselves in your life. If someone slapped you in the face, you'd head out the door, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. You have to realize these players more often than not come from backgrounds where they have to stand up for themselves against any slight, they have to be men. Artest and Jackson were men. Maybe a lack of perfect judgment, but they were protecting themselves against some cowardly, punk-ass behavior. Like those two fat-ass chubby kids who came out in Pistons jerseys trying to start shit with Artest on the floor. Got what they deserved - leveled. I hate those frat boy types in the stands thinking they can lob beers at players and not get their noses taken off. Where's the respect? And the dumb-ass cops trying to pepper spray the players before they pepper spray the fans.

This reminds me of those idiots who get themselves killed every year in Yellowstone encouraging their kids to walk up and pet a moose or something, a bear, and get themselves wiped out. People have no respect for anything and don't see consequences for their behavior. This was all caused by idiotic fans.

Back up with the "motherfuckers" talk, Mr. BadAss.

Artest wasn't protecting himself. He wasn't in danger. He had beer on his jersey. He wasn't being threatened.

[samikeyp]

This was all caused by idiotic fans

the players are totally blameless?

[mattyc]

I just saw this on SportsCenter and I have to say, it's one of the most disgusting things I've seen in all the sports I watch. I heard it was bad, but bloody hell, that was pure lunacy from all 3 parties involved (Pistons, Pacers and fans).

What really saddens me is Jackson. This cat found his niche in San Antonio under the guidance of Pop - now he'll have the reputation of a nut job and thug because he isn't controlled in Indy. This guy can be a star player, but come on man....

When Rasheed is doing his best to stay out of the action, you know that things have gone too far. Good on Rasheed though, Detroit has done him wonders.

Tinsley sickens me. Coming out of the rooms with a dustpan? Fucken cheap act. If you are going to fight, fight like a fucken man. Tinsley is a piece of trash.

All in all, this is a sad day for basketball. Unfortunate that Artest and Jackson were nearest the 'cup' incident as both have a temper and both would go nuts if they saw the other doing so. If it was a player with a different demeanour, well...this never would have happened.

Blame falls on all parties. Disgraceful incident that will take the shine of things like Wade's star game.

[samikeyp]

When Rasheed is doing his best to stay out of the action, you know that things have gone too far. Good on Rasheed though, Detroit has done him wonders.

That is the irony....Sheed was trying to be a peacemaker!

[timvp]

One thing I want to know is what the hell is a dust pan going to do? What, he couldn't find a wet paper bag back inside the hallway?

http://www.euromedical.co.uk/Living/Resources/longdustoan.jpeg

:makemyday

[ShoogarBear]

He was going to be "Mr. Sandman".

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I'm tempted to vote for Pacers and Pistons for the East All-Stars just to see THAT trainwreck.

[Das Texan]

fucking riduclious.



while the fans were instigators for the major melee....it comes down to artest being a nutcase.


like some have pointed out....you dont go into the stands...no matter what.



were the fans innocent? no.


shoudl the players of gone into the stands...no fucking way in hell.



and stephen jackson is fucking stupid......maybe more stupid than artest.

[Kori Ellis]

I think the guy in the brown suit that punched the fans might be Anthony Johnson after all

It was.


Every Pacers player was allowed to leave the building. They host Orlando Saturday. There was talk that Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal might be arrested. He and teammate Anthony Johnson both punched a fan -- whose name was believed to be Charles Hadad -- who had run onto the court after O'Neal. Johnson hit him first, O'Neal knocked him cold.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/0411/20/pistons-11169.htm

[Mr. Body]

Back up with the "motherfuckers" talk, Mr. BadAss.

Artest wasn't protecting himself. He wasn't in danger. He had beer on his jersey. He wasn't being threatened.

Look, it was a fight. It was a brawl. It was stupid. It is not the end of the world.

A threatened person needs to protect himself. If you don't protect yourself when threatened you're a punk.

A bunch of suburbanites won't understand. They feel threatened whenever they see a huge black man defending himself. That's the way it is in this country and may always be.

[Kori Ellis]

Okay, Mr. Ghetto. You still don't get it. He wasn't threatened. He had beer on his jersey.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

*Sits back with soda*

This is about to get good.

[whottt]

All ya'll motherfuckers saying Artest shouldn't have defended himself are some suburban, pampered fools. Serious, you never had to defend yourselves in your life. If someone slapped you in the face, you'd head out the door, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. You have to realize these players more often than not come from backgrounds where they have to stand up for themselves against any slight, they have to be men. Artest and Jackson were men. Maybe a lack of perfect judgment, but they were protecting themselves against some cowardly, punk-ass behavior. Like those two fat-ass chubby kids who came out in Pistons jerseys trying to start shit with Artest on the floor. Got what they deserved - leveled. I hate those frat boy types in the stands thinking they can lob beers at players and not get their noses taken off. Where's the respect? And the dumb-ass cops trying to pepper spray the players before they pepper spray the fans.

This reminds me of those idiots who get themselves killed every year in Yellowstone encouraging their kids to walk up and pet a moose or something, a bear, and get themselves wiped out. People have no respect for anything and don't see consequences for their behavior. This was all caused by idiotic fans.




Um, I'm a bondsman for a defense attorney. I talk to multiple people being accused of assault every day. I have already gone and gotten some accused of assault out of jail today. Since it is now right after 2 am, I will probably go and get someone charged with assault out of jail within the next couple of hours. A nice side effect of my particular situation is that I tend to have someone threatening me with assault on a weekly basis.

My world is assault.

And IMO there is hard and fast rule on what constitutes self defense. I have seen people get charged AND FOUND GUILTY of assault for beating someone who broke into their house. I have seen a woman call the police on her husband for assault and she end up being the one who gets arrested. I have met someone who hit a man with a car and he got off on a self defense charge. It's a fast and loose world.

IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Just to settle the argument on Rifleman's suit color.

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/11/20/sports/pistonspacers/4.jpg

[timvp]

Chuck Person saved the day.

:smokin

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Um, I'm a bondsman for a defense attorney. I talk to multiple people being accused of assault every day. I have already gone and gotten some accused of assault out of jail today. Since it is now right after 2 am, I will probably go and get someone charged with assault out of jail within the next couple of hours. A nice side effect of my particular situation is that I tend to have someone threatening me with assault on a weekly basis.

My world is assault.

And IMO there is hard and fast rule on what constitutes self defense. I have seen people get charged AND FOUND GUILTY of assault for beating someone who broke into their house. I have seen a woman call the police on her husband for assault and she end up being the one who gets arrested. I have met someone who hit a man with a car and he got off on a self defense charge. It's a fast and loose world.

IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.


If ever an order for a change of venue should be granted...

[iminlakerland]

Man im sitting here pondering this still. Where the hell was security? How could security let this happen? Detroit needs to amp up security! This isnt the first time fans have been able to walk onto the court.

I hate to bring this up but remember the Karl Malone incident? Ehh i guess somethings dont change.

[Mr. Body]

This is precisely my point. Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board - and most the people that are able to buy NBA tickets. This episode is one of the rare times that exposes the social and class gulf that exists in professional athletics but is normally meticulously airbrushed away.

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.

That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

You fail to see this in the correct terms. True, these men are professionals, they sign autographs, they hang out with fans, and so on, but this was not a player-versus-fan brawl. This was a man-versus-man brawl. You fail to see this correctly, you see this in suburban terms, where the police will take your side on every issue and won't throw the cuffs on you immediately whenever any shit goes down and take them off later if they have to. I think there is some blindness on your part. I'm not trying to absolve anybody in this instance, but there were some cowardly ass people in the stands who needed a good smacking. Because others in the crowd didn't know what was going on - didn't see the bottles thrown and hitting Artest - it blew up from there.

I stand by it - this episode shows a glimpse of the divides that still exist, very powerfully, in our culture and our culture of sports.



IMO, Artest, even with a good lawyer is going to have a hard time mounting a self defense case...he went looking for a fight...he had to run 35 feet to get to the guy...and then he got the wrong guy. I think he's going to have a weak case...and if he does get taken to court I don't think the citizens of Detroit are going to be very accomodating to him if it goes to a jury trial.

There won't be any trial, there won't be any charges. Sports in America is big business -- and I mean BIG BUSINESS. And as we know, money talks in this country and money is essentially the law. There are too many battalions of lawyers working for Stern and these players make too much money for their cities. There will never be a single charge anywhere.

[Kori Ellis]

Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board

You don't know anyone's background on this board.

I understand you are trying to create a race/wealth issue on why this happened. But you are so off base.

Bowen and Malik grew up pretty damn ghetto -- would they have gone into the stands punching fans if they got beer on them? Hell no.

[whottt]

This is precisely my point. Artest and Jackson both come from a different background than most the people on this board - and most the people that are able to buy NBA tickets. This episode is one of the rare times that exposes the social and class gulf that exists in professional athletics but is normally meticulously airbrushed away.

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.


Um, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Jax is from Houston and grew up in Port Aurther Texas...

And he went to the same highschool in Virginia that I did.

Those motherfuckers ont he basketball team had it better than we did...not only were they the only ones that got to go off campus but they got to rape us on drug prices. I don't know about Artest but Jax has had it pretty fucking good since he was a teenager...better than me.




That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

You fail to see this in the correct terms. True, these men are professionals, they sign autographs, they hang out with fans, and so on, but this was not a player-versus-fan brawl. This was a man-versus-man brawl. You fail to see this correctly, you see this in suburban terms, where the police will take your side on every issue and won't throw the cuffs on you immediately whenever any shit goes down and take them off later if they have to. I think there is some blindness on your part. I'm not trying to absolve anybody in this instance, but there were some cowardly ass people in the stands who needed a good smacking. Because others in the crowd didn't know what was going on - didn't see the bottles thrown and hitting Artest - it blew up from there.

I stand by it - this episode shows a glimpse of the divides that still exist, very powerfully, in our culture and our culture of sports.


Sorry there are rules of society and you either live by them or you get punished by the law.

That's like saying a pedophile can't help himself....he better fucking learn...or he isn't going to be a part of society for very long.





There won't be any trial, there won't be any charges. Sports in America is big business -- and I mean BIG BUSINESS. And as we know, money talks in this country and money is essentially the law. There are too many battalions of lawyers working for Stern and these players make too much money for their cities. There will never be a single charge anywhere.

Um, not to rain on your parade but you are fucking stupid if you don't think there are also lawyers that are going to have $$$ signs in their eyes over the prospect of bringing PI and assault cases up against these millionair NBA players.....Lawyers have people in their offices that do nothing but look for these sorts of incidents.


I gurantee you every person that got punched by an NBA player who was identified is going to be contacted by an attorney.

There may not be a trial...but there will be some money paid out over this incident. Guranteed.

[Mr. Body]

You don't know anyone's background on this board.

No joke.

The NBA - and NFL, and any other sport - normally works without incident because of the money involved, the success, and so on, and precisely because players are protected, and so on. But incidents do develop.

Sure, Malik and Bowen grew up in Philly or South Central or wherever, but that doesn't mean every guy who grows up in the ghetto plays the tuba or has a good set of step-parents to guide them, or whatever happened to Bowen. I'm saying the impulses are always there throughout the sport and it popped out in this instance, when emotions ran high and overwhelmed professionalism. Yes, it's a character issue. Yes, it's an issue of keeping tempers in check. But I'm also saying there are reasons behind this. Stern and the NBA are dynamite at taking talented black kids out of impoverished areas and doctoring all these impulses out of them, because they sell to little kids in Yao shirts and their parents - in the suburbs. It took a long time for Iverson to give enough to play by the new set of rules. But, simply, it is not always the same set of rules some of these guys spent their entire lives learning. That's the facts. They might have been protected on the playground because they could ball - same as the scrawny kids who could rap - but they saw it, they knew it. It's there, plain as day.

I don't know why you're having problems identifying social issues in inner cities and bad neighborhoods.

These two men were trying to protect themselves. The fans were at fault. If some dude threw a can at Artest in an alley somewhere, why would he keep walking? Why is it any different when some boorish frat guy throws it from a couple rows up?

YES, I wish he would have walked away. NO, I will not condemn him for trying to teach this guy a lesson about behaving in the world.



There may not be a trial...but there will be some money paid out over this incident. Guranteed.

Yeah, I agree. Don't get your point about Jax growing up in Port Arthur. Or - Boo Hoo - him having the posh life you didn't (?). I'm still not sure you're getting it.

[Kori Ellis]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

I still don't get what you think Artest was protecting himself from. Wetness? Beer stains? He wasn't threatened or in danger until HE went into the stands.

[Louae]

Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down. They are seriously tough backgrounds, where people die, get put in jail, on a regular basis. This is not the environment most of us live. When you are threatened, when you are shown up, you have to stand up to it, even if you get your ass kicked - you CANNOT BE A PUNK. You cannot let someone get away with it.

That's the impulse there. You protect yourself, you protect your crew. Why? Why, in the cities of America, do they have to do this? Because nobody protects them, no outside force will protect them. The police act usually as antagonists. Codes develop.

I totally understand where you're coming from but that still doesn't make their reactions right. And it certainly doesn't allow them to get off from a heavy suspension. NO PLAYER SHOULD EVER ENTER THE STANDS TO FIGHT.. And I don't give two flying fucks as to how they're provoked to enter the stands. There are just too many innocent bystanders to have that shit going on in the stands. If Artest wouldn't have entered the stands, none of that crap would've happened. It's as simple as that.

After all, the basketball arena should be a civilized environment and everything should be done to keep it that way. Just b/c they come from a shithole doesn't mean they can turn a perfectly peaceful environment into a shithole based on the actions to a few unruly fans.

Now if a fan comes onto the court, he gets what he deserves. He should get pummelled and go to jail. The same should go for fans who were throwing shit onto the floor. But if a player enters the stands to fight, he should be suspended for a long fuckin' time regardless of whether or not he was provoked or not.

[TheWriter]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

I still don't get what you think Artest was protecting himself from. Wetness? Beer stains? He wasn't threatened or in danger until HE went into the stands.

Exactly. He's a hothead who reacted like the nutjob he is. He had nothing to be threatened about.

[toosmallshoes]

a plastic cup of beer hit artest in the chest while he was laying on the press table passive-aggesively taunting the pistons' players and fans. If he wanted to stay out of it he should have walked far far away. He should not have run into the stands under any circumstances. And SJax just added more proof to the argument that he is a mindless idiot when he followed artest into the stands. They should both spend some of their suspension time in jail.

[whottt]

Yeah, I agree. Don't get your point about Jax growing up in Port Arthur. Or - Boo Hoo - him having the posh life you didn't (?). I'm still not sure you're getting it.



Um Jax was going out there trying to slug every motherfucker in the stands...

You seem to be excusing his behaviour based on his environment during his formative years...

Well...it's bullshit..that mofo was getting his ass kissed from the time he was 14 on at a prep school...

You act like little kids don't get their asses kicked in school unless they are poor or black or something...we'll you're wrong...that happens to kids everywhere.

That's kids...kids do that shit everywhere. There are bullies at every school, kids get into fights at every school. Kids get beat up at every school. And neighborhoods too...Hell Rich Kids are the biggest dicks there are.

My point is to stop making excuses for a lack of discipline. These guys are grown fucking men. They are old enough to know right from wrong, they should be fairly aware of the law, especially if they had a rough upbringing, and they are old enough to be in control of their actions.

[Mr. Body]

I get all the poverty issues and it was how they grew up, blahblah. I coached inner city teenage boys basketball in South Central L.A. for four years. I probably know more about that kind of stuff than you. But that's an excuse. He wasn't in danger. He wasn't acting in self-defense.

The competition thing is stupid. I live in Harlem. My girlfriend has a fake tooth and a scar on her cheek because someone blind-sided her during a fight with a pair of brass knuckles. Her sister, who danced with LL Cool J back in the day, now a single mother of four bright, active kids and living in Jersey City, motored her way through public school with her share of cuts and bruises. If someone gave you beef on the way home from school and you did nothing about it, your mother would march you back to where it happened and would clear everybody out so you and that kid could do it with fists until somebody had enough. It wasn't about winning or losing, it was about standing up. Aquilah, my gf's sister, once got some grief from members of the girl's basketball team and wound up, with her mother watching to make sure she wouldn't get jumped, fighting them in the locker room ONE BY ONE until she kicked all their asses.

I'm white, I grew up in the suburbs. It is crazy the stuff they went through growing up around here. I apologize for the tone of my comments, which were more combative than they should have, but we have all been super-charged by that fight. I'm coming to understand just how tough this environment is - as you likely saw in LA. I am not justifying Artest's behavior, but I can understand it. My girlfriend, incidentally, who is also a big basketball fan (Knicks, by the way), saw the incident entirely from Artest and Jackson's point of view. They had to stand their ground. I find myself siding with them and against people here and elsewhere who call for them to be suspended all season. I think their actions were reasonable and did not directly cause the eruption of viciousness that came afterwards: that was the fans' fault. A suspension is in order, but not nearly that drastic.

The NBA needs to work hard to fix this problem and smooth things over, which I think they will. I also think that this springs from a racial and cultural gulf in this country that may never be fixed. Whatever that's worth.

[whottt]

They had to stand their ground.

And now they get to accept the judgement of the law...just like everyone else...well, not just like everyone else...most everyone else would have been arrested right there on the spot.

[Kori Ellis]

A suspension is in order, but not nearly that drastic.

I don't think they should be suspended all season. Stephen Jackson is on all my fantasy teams :)

But I do think that the NBA can't be easy on the punishment. I think Jack and Artest might get 15-20 games. Wallace and others,anywhere from 1-10.

The fans sucked. The security sucked. But my point is that the bulk could have been avoided if Artest would have just not gone into the stands.

[Mr. Body]

And now they get to accept the judgement of the law...just like everyone else...well, not just like everyone else...most everyone else would have been arrested right there on the spot.

Money is law. Too many lawyers, too much commercial interest in keeping them playing. Forget it. Why this lust for posse justice?


But I do think that the NBA can't be easy on the punishment. I think Jack and Artest might get 15-20 games. Wallace and others,anywhere from 1-10.

I think that is fair.

I apologize again for being antagonistic. Now I head for bed.

[whottt]

Money is law. Too many lawyers, too much commercial interest in keeping them playing. Forget it. Why this lust for posse justice?

Um, because they went up into the stands and beat the shit out of an innocent man for starters?

I'm not picking sides...the dumbass that threw the bottle should be prosecuted too...but there's a big difference between throwing a plastic bottle at someone and running up into the stands and beating the shit out of someone. Lots of prosecutions should be held up...but Artest started the brawl...plain and simple. He threw the first punch. He's should have to face the music for doing so...As should the other guys that were sucker punching players and players that were suckerpunching fans.

But he lost it plain and simple...don't give me cultural bullshit...I probably would have done the same thing...but that doesn't change the law...he went and beat an innocent man...and he's going to pay some $$$ for it...mainly because he can.


Every player in the NBA knows the foul rules and this isn't much different...every player in the NBA knows what happens if you throw a punch...it's always the second guy that gets caught...this is very similar... so why would you think they don't know that same rule when it comes to the fans as well?

Artest started the brawl.

And if you make cultural excuses for the behaviour of Artest...why don't you make them for the dumbass that threw something at him for acting like a punk? They were both out of line. But Artest went and beat the shit out of an innocent man and so did Jax....that's a big difference.

[timvp]

After looking everything over, I'll say Artest is finished for the season.

[toosmallshoes]

One can only hope. That CD of his better be good. It's going to be his only source of income soon.

[boutons]

Jim Gray sounds like he's about to bust out crying while giving his report for ESPN News.

yes, I thought I heard his voice cracking several times.

[Nikihtgrl]

Jermaine Oneal threw a running haymacker at a fat towel boy

dude got the knocked the fuck out, it took three ppl to pick him up

SJax dropped a nice one on a fan in the stands, Artest was being held by 5 ppl n takin shots, he broke lose n connected on a nice one

detroit is wild!

Indy is done for the year


towl boys can wear jersey's? all reports said fans ran out on the court.

[SLOVENIAN 8]

Wtf! They are crazy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/motion/showcase/index?videos=1927343

[ducks]

you know the security sucked
at the baseball game when they were in new york
they had cops up and down the foul line when fans got out of hand when the refs took the run off the board for the yankees
security sucked big time here