All-Time NBA Player Rankings in Texas

[George Gervin's Afro]

1. Hakeem- 2 titles
2. Tim Duncan- 3 titles
3. David Robinson 2 titles
4. Dork- ZERO titles

[Sec24Row7]

Duncan is more effective and won againts better competition than Hakeem

[samikeyp]

I think that is a fair ranking although I think Duncan may surpass Hakeem by the time his career is over.

[wildbill2u]

Amazing how Duncan compares right up there with two athletes of incomparable physical ability--especially when his physical assets remind you more of Mark Eaton. :spin

[Dave McNulla]

1 duncan
2 drob
3 gervin
4 hakeem

[mardigan]

1. Hakeem- 2 titles
2. Tim Duncan- 3 tite
3. David Robinson 2 titles
4. Dork- ZERO titles
I would put Gervin ahead of Dirk

[bobbyjoe]

Duncan is more effective and won againts better competition than Hakeem

Hakeem = a much more athletic version of Duncan. Much better than Duncan defensively and one of the few bigs with more moves and range than Tim. He also shot FT's much better than Tim. The only facet of Tim's game which is better than Hakeem's is passing.

Both Elie and Horry played with Duncan and Hakeem and rank Hakeem higher of the 2.

The original list is right on.

I also dont get the better competition comment. Hakeem competed against DRob, Ewing, Kareem, Moses, Daugherty, Shaq, K.Malone/Stockton, Barkley, etc. That was a much tougher era of basketball.

You think Tim has had to play teams the caliber of the 86 Celtics and late 80's Lakers (2 of the best dynasties ever) like a young Hakeem did?

[bobbyjoe]

1 duncan
2 drob
3 gervin
4 hakeem

Nice. :blah

[T Park]

how can you put Nowitzki ahead of Gervin?

[Roxsfan]

Duncan is more effective and won againts better competition than Hakeem

Hakeem defended his title. Duncan, nope.

[T Park]

:lmao

Thats all this asshat has to comeback with.

he defended he defended.

hakeem is lucky Jordan was suspend errrrr retired for 2 years.

[bobbyjoe]

:lmao

Thats all this asshat has to comeback with.

he defended he defended.

hakeem is lucky Jordan was suspend errrrr retired for 2 years.

Yeah, all he had to do that yr Jordan came back in 95 was rumble through 4 60 win teams in the playoffs, including the MVP David Robinson and Shaq O'Neal. Talk about luck. :blah

I mean facing Larry Johnson and Kenyon Martin in the Finals is much harder than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or O'Neal, right? Oh wait, those are 3 of the top 10 C's of all time.

Was Tim not "lucky" that Jordan retired in 98 so he didnt face him in 99?

It cuts both ways.

However, to the Rocket fan, would you rather win back to back or every other year for 10 yrs? Back to back is nice and impressive, but not the be-all, end all, certainly not in a comparison of 2 individual players.

It's homerism to think that Gervin was a better all time player than Nowitzki btw. Nowitzki has passed that level. The league has rarely seen 7 footers with the skillset of Dirk and he's led some great teams which have accomplished more than Gervin's teams did.

[v2freak]

Gervin is a HOF for sure. Nowitzki, we don't know about yet.

And there is no inherent trait that keeps 7 footers from being good shooters. All they have to do is work at it, just like any guard. In fact, that's how Nowitzki gets a lot of his shots off - he's taller than most of his defenders and just shoots right over them. I'm not saying he isn't talented, I'm simply saying that his being a good shooter at 7 feet is not more impressive than a very good shooter who is 6'5"

[Roxsfan]

Yeah, all he had to do that yr Jordan came back in 95 was rumble through 4 60 win teams in the playoffs, including the MVP David Robinson and Shaq O'Neal. Talk about luck. :blah

I mean facing Larry Johnson and Kenyon Martin in the Finals is much harder than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or O'Neal, right? Oh wait, those are 3 of the top 10 C's of all time.

Was Tim not "lucky" that Jordan retired in 98 so he didnt face him in 99?

It cuts both ways.

However, to the Rocket fan, would you rather win back to back or every other year for 10 yrs? Back to back is nice and impressive, but not the be-all, end all, certainly not in a comparison of 2 individual players.

It's homerism to think that Gervin was a better all time player than Nowitzki btw. Nowitzki has passed that level. The league has rarely seen 7 footers with the skillset of Dirk and he's led some great teams which have accomplished more than Gervin's teams did.

good points.


:

Thats all this asshat has to comeback with.

he defended he defended.






Azz hat t park here is following me around here ever since he was owned on this thread and was even called out by another Spursfan too. :clap



Before I say anything, TPark, you're being an idiot. Avoiding admitting that TD doesn't OWN Yao every time because you're afraid of wounded pride or whatever is just stupid. And once he called you out on it, you cry about him being a troll.... Don't divert into some tangent just to feel better about yourself.Looking at their match-ups this regular season, Tim does NOT "own" Yao, but looking at their overall impact, Tim does seem to win out. While his ft percentage and point total are significantly lower, his huge advantage on the ).



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1558534#post1558534

[Dave McNulla]

Hakeem defended his title. Duncan, nope.
should i be surprised that rocket fan values title defense over three titles? what's next, piston fan valuing titles more obtained when jordan was playing?

:dizzy

[bobbyjoe]

Gervin is a HOF for sure. Nowitzki, we don't know about yet.

And there is no inherent trait that keeps 7 footers from being good shooters. All they have to do is work at it, just like any guard. In fact, that's how Nowitzki gets a lot of his shots off - he's taller than most of his defenders and just shoots right over them. I'm not saying he isn't talented, I'm simply saying that his being a good shooter at 7 feet is not more impressive than a very good shooter who is 6'5"

A 7 footer who can shoot is a much more rare asset and thus more valuable than a 6'5" shooter.

Most 7 footers rely on their size as their biggest weapon and dont bother investing in the finer points of the game. So yes, it is more impressive because a 7 footer has less of a sense of urgency to become a great shooter because of his height.

It's also much tougher to defend because 7 footers arent used to guarding other 7 footers at the perimeter. You seen Duncan try to guard Dirk? It's usually not pretty.

Gervin did play in a tougher era, but Dirk has turned it on to a level the past few years which surpasses Gervin. The combination of his shooting touch and ability to put it on the floor makes him an almost impossible cover 1 on 1. And he's no slouch as a rebounder. Gervin was an outstanding scorer, but other facets of his game were unremarkable, especially his defense.

I think in the end it's pretty debatable who's better because they are going to end up in the same tier of players.

[endrity]

Gervin is a HOF for sure. Nowitzki, we don't know about yet.

And there is no inherent trait that keeps 7 footers from being good shooters. All they have to do is work at it, just like any guard. In fact, that's how Nowitzki gets a lot of his shots off - he's taller than most of his defenders and just shoots right over them. I'm not saying he isn't talented, I'm simply saying that his being a good shooter at 7 feet is not more impressive than a very good shooter who is 6'5"
then how come there aren't more?? Since being a 7ft shooter is a great advantage because you can shoot over people, you would think more would do it. But there are very few. It's actually almost impossible for a 7footer to have that kind of skill set. It requires coordination, and agility that are beyond normal. And if Dirk isn't a surefire HOF yet, which i think he is just by being probably the best European player ever, by May when he gets his MVP trophy he will be.

[ponky]

Yeah, all he had to do that yr Jordan came back in 95 was rumble through 4 60 win teams in the playoffs, including the MVP David Robinson and Shaq O'Neal. Talk about luck. :blah

I mean facing Larry Johnson and Kenyon Martin in the Finals is much harder than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or O'Neal, right? Oh wait, those are 3 of the top 10 C's of all time.

Was Tim not "lucky" that Jordan retired in 98 so he didnt face him in 99?

It cuts both ways.

However, to the Rocket fan, would you rather win back to back or every other year for 10 yrs? Back to back is nice and impressive, but not the be-all, end all, certainly not in a comparison of 2 individual players.

It's homerism to think that Gervin was a better all time player than Nowitzki btw. Nowitzki has passed that level. The league has rarely seen 7 footers with the skillset of Dirk and he's led some great teams which have accomplished more than Gervin's teams did.

good post. using jordan as a reason for why the rockets had it so easy (they didn't) and then omitting the fact that he retired in 98 is homer b.s. anyway, this thread is really just a front for putting spurs on a pedestal, dissing hakeem (for the select few dumbasses) and calling dirk silly names like dork.

[Roxsfan]

good post ponky!!!^^

[IGNORANT MAVS FAN]

good post ponky!!!^^
:jack

[endrity]

^you are dumb my friend, in any way possible

[Dave McNulla]

Yeah, all he had to do that yr Jordan came back in 95 was rumble through 4 60 win teams in the playoffs, including the MVP David Robinson and Shaq O'Neal. Talk about luck. :blah

I mean facing Larry Johnson and Kenyon Martin in the Finals is much harder than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or O'Neal, right? Oh wait, those are 3 of the top 10 C's of all time.

Was Tim not "lucky" that Jordan retired in 98 so he didnt face him in 99?

It cuts both ways.

However, to the Rocket fan, would you rather win back to back or every other year for 10 yrs? Back to back is nice and impressive, but not the be-all, end all, certainly not in a comparison of 2 individual players.

It's homerism to think that Gervin was a better all time player than Nowitzki btw. Nowitzki has passed that level. The league has rarely seen 7 footers with the skillset of Dirk and he's led some great teams which have accomplished more than Gervin's teams did.that's one way to look at it. here's another

hakeem beat o'neal, ewing, and drob during his championship runs.
duncan beat o'neal twice, kobe twice, garnett, nowitzki, kidd, ray allen, amare stoudamire twice, and rasheed wallace twice.

hakeem beat the best-record spurs w/current mvp drob.
duncan beat the best-record suns w/current mvp nash.

hakeem was 15-8 during his first championship run.
duncan was 15-2 during his first championship run.

hakeem was 15-7 during his second championship run.
duncan was 16-8 during his second championship run.

hakeem was ... he didn't have a third championship run.
duncan was 16-7 during his third championship run.

duncan beat 2 current nba champions on his way to three titles, one was a three time champ.
hakeem beat 0 champs to win two titles. hakeem beat two teams that could only beat the bulls cause jordan played baseball.



oh yeah, gervin was one of the first 6'8" guards to play and won four scoring titles when guards never dreamed of it. his team accomplishments neared what dirk has done, except maybe lose in the finals.

[cornbread]

A 7 footer who can shoot is a much more rare asset and thus more valuable than a 6'5" shooter.

Most 7 footers rely on their size as their biggest weapon and dont bother investing in the finer points of the game. So yes, it is more impressive because a 7 footer has less of a sense of urgency to become a great shooter because of his height.

It's also much tougher to defend because 7 footers arent used to guarding other 7 footers at the perimeter. You seen Duncan try to guard Dirk? It's usually not pretty.

Gervin did play in a tougher era, but Dirk has turned it on to a level the past few years which surpasses Gervin. The combination of his shooting touch and ability to put it on the floor makes him an almost impossible cover 1 on 1. And he's no slouch as a rebounder. Gervin was an outstanding scorer, but other facets of his game were unremarkable, especially his defense.
I think in the end it's pretty debatable who's better because they are going to end up in the same tier of players.

A few quick points.

Gervin was far more than just a "shooter". He could score from absolutely anywhere on the court including the paint. 4 scoring titles in 5 seasons (for a guard no less) is no joke. Ice Man was about as close to unguardable as it gets.

The guy shot over 50% for his career (in a much tougher era), a number Dirk yet has to touch in one season. Dirk has become very dominant on offense but not at the level of Gervin.

Dirk's defense has been unremarkable too. He's shown improvement lately but the majority of his career has been unimpressive.

Dirk might pass Ice on a list like this in the future because he has a great shot at winning some championships, mvps, and continuing to improve his d. IMO he's not there yet.


Gervin is a HOF for sure
Gervin IS HOF and top 50 of all time.

[slayermin]

Nice post, Dave.

[bobbyjoe]

that's one way to look at it. here's another

hakeem beat o'neal, ewing, and drob during his championship runs.
duncan beat o'neal twice, kobe twice, garnett, nowitzki, kidd, ray allen, amare stoudamire twice, and rasheed wallace twice.

hakeem beat the best-record spurs w/current mvp drob.
duncan beat the best-record suns w/current mvp nash.

hakeem was 15-8 during his first championship run.
duncan was 15-2 during his first championship run.

hakeem was 15-7 during his second championship run.
duncan was 16-8 during his second championship run.

hakeem was ... he didn't have a third championship run.
duncan was 16-7 during his third championship run.

duncan beat 2 current nba champions on his way to three titles, one was a three time champ.
hakeem beat 0 champs to win two titles. hakeem beat two teams that could only beat the bulls cause jordan played baseball.



oh yeah, gervin was one of the first 6'8" guards to play and won four scoring titles when guards never dreamed of it. his team accomplishments neared what dirk has done, except maybe lose in the finals.

Tim didnt beat Jordan in 1999. He beat an 8 seeded Knicks team, pretty much the worst team in the history of the NBA to make the NBA Finals.

Are you just ignorant? Do you not realize that a Spurs fan saying Hakeem benefitted from MJ being gone is pretty asinine considering MJ retired the year before Duncan won his first ring and Duncan never faced the GOAT himself? Your argument would only have merit if Duncan's teams were beating the Bulls and Hakeem's rockets weren't.

Yes, Tim did get by Shaq. He was also 2-3 lifetime against O'Neal in the playoffs in his prime. Not a winning record.

"hakeem beat o'neal, ewing, and drob during his championship runs.
duncan beat o'neal twice, kobe twice, garnett, nowitzki, kidd, ray allen, amare stoudamire twice, and rasheed wallace twice"

-Call me crazy but I think getting by Malone/Stockton in back 2 back years (Duncan lifetime in the playoffs vs. Malone was 0-2), Shaq (1-0 for Hakeem; 2-3 for Duncan), Barkley in his prime (2-0 for hakeem), DRob is tougher than getting by Kidd, Ray Allen, Amare, Rasheed, etc. Mentioning Amare is pretty crazy too. the SPURS beat the SUNS in 2005 but Amare dominated Duncan, pouring in 37 ppg that series.

Malone/Barkley/DRob/Ewing/Stockton are all HOFers. Allen, Kidd, Amare, Rasheed, etc are not.

Tim did get by the HOF Combo of Kobe/Shaq, but like I said he was 2-3 in the postseason against these guys.

Hakeem's Rockets also beat the 86 Lakers 4-1 in the playoffs. That team had 2 guys you may have heard of, Kareem and Magic. Pretty convenient you leave that out. They were defending Champions that year and pretty much one of the top team's EVER.

Anyway, we are really arguing team successes vs. individual successes.

https://www.nbrpa.com/news/editorial/8_25_06_P2.aspx

Robert Horry, who played with Shaq, Hakeem, and TD ranked them Hakeem 1, Shaq 2, and TD 3. Elie ranked Hakeem over TD as well.

[bobbyjoe]

A few quick points.

Gervin was far more than just a "shooter". He could score from absolutely anywhere on the court including the paint. 4 scoring titles in 5 seasons (for a guard no less) is no joke. Ice Man was about as close to unguardable as it gets.

The guy shot over 50% for his career (in a much tougher era), a number Dirk yet has to touch in one season. Dirk has become very dominant on offense but not at the level of Gervin.

Dirk's defense has been unremarkable too. He's shown improvement lately but the majority of his career has been unimpressive.

Dirk might pass Ice on a list like this in the future because he has a great shot at winning some championships, mvps, and continuing to improve his d. IMO he's not there yet.


Gervin IS HOF and top 50 of all time.

Absolutely. My argument about the 7 foot shooter vs. the 6'5" wasnt meant to be Dirk vs. Ice Man, but just any 7 footer vs. any 6'5" guy.

Ice was a terrrific scorer, not just a shooter. He had a career like Dominique Wilkins IMO. Tremendous individual achievements with lots of flair but never enjoyed the team successes.

I completely agree that Gervin played in a much tougher era with some really great teams. Basketball as a whole was much better back then.

I think Dirk's D has improved to the point where he's not a liability anymore. Not a good defender by any stretch, but he's not the sieve he used to be.

I think your argument about FG% is deceiving though. Gervin didnt shoot nearly as many 3 pointers as Dirk did so you have to use the adjusted FG% stat which considers the increased value of the 3 pointer when you compare them.

But all in all, I think you made good points. It's definitely debatable who's better of the 2, but I tend to think if Dirk can maintain his level of play of the past 2-3 years, he'll end up being just a bit better in terms of legacy.

And I'm not sure Gervin or anyone in his family would say he had a better career than Hakeem (as the one homer poster did here). That's just ludicrous. Although now that I read it, he also said DRob was better than Hakeem.

Yeah, that's the ticket. DRob AND Gervin were better than a top 10-15 player of all time. Never mind no one in their right mind has Rob or Ice as a top 10-15 POAT.

[cornbread]

And I'm not sure Gervin or anyone in his family would say he had a better career than Hakeem (as the one homer poster did here). That's just ludicrous.
No doubt. Hakeem was dominant on both ends of the floor, loaded up the boxscore across all stats, had finesse and power, and won the big ones like MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY, and championships. Hard to argue with that.

[SRJ]

Player X was better than Player Y because his Team X was better than Team Y.

I get it.

[DarrinS]

Tim didnt beat Jordan in 1999. He beat an 8 seeded Knicks team, pretty much the worst team in the history of the NBA to make the NBA Finals.


I love when Laker fan throws out the Knicks to try and diminish the 99 title. Tell me, oh wise Laker fan, who did the Lakers play in the 2000, 01, and 02 finals?


EDIT> Hakeem was one of the greatest big men to ever play the game. I watched his complete dominance in 1995 and I have nothing negative to say about him.

[Sec24Row7]

Only Reason that Horry ranks TD last is because TD has only won HIM one ring...

he readily ADMITS that...

[Dave McNulla]

Tim didnt beat Jordan in 1999. He beat an 8 seeded Knicks team, pretty much the worst team in the history of the NBA to make the NBA Finals.

Are you just ignorant? Do you not realize that a Spurs fan saying Hakeem benefitted from MJ being gone is pretty asinine considering MJ retired the year before Duncan won his first ring and Duncan never faced the GOAT himself? Your argument would only have merit if Duncan's teams were beating the Bulls and Hakeem's rockets weren't.

Yes, Tim did get by Shaq. He was also 2-3 lifetime against O'Neal in the playoffs in his prime. Not a winning record.

"hakeem beat o'neal, ewing, and drob during his championship runs.
duncan beat o'neal twice, kobe twice, garnett, nowitzki, kidd, ray allen, amare stoudamire twice, and rasheed wallace twice"

-Call me crazy but I think getting by Malone/Stockton in back 2 back years (Duncan lifetime in the playoffs vs. Malone was 0-2), Shaq (1-0 for Hakeem; 2-3 for Duncan), Barkley in his prime (2-0 for hakeem), DRob is tougher than getting by Kidd, Ray Allen, Amare, Rasheed, etc. Mentioning Amare is pretty crazy too. the SPURS beat the SUNS in 2005 but Amare dominated Duncan, pouring in 37 ppg that series.

Malone/Barkley/DRob/Ewing/Stockton are all HOFers. Allen, Kidd, Amare, Rasheed, etc are not.

Tim did get by the HOF Combo of Kobe/Shaq, but like I said he was 2-3 in the postseason against these guys.

Hakeem's Rockets also beat the 86 Lakers 4-1 in the playoffs. That team had 2 guys you may have heard of, Kareem and Magic. Pretty convenient you leave that out. They were defending Champions that year and pretty much one of the top team's EVER.

Anyway, we are really arguing team successes vs. individual successes.

https://www.nbrpa.com/news/editorial/8_25_06_P2.aspx

Robert Horry, who played with Shaq, Hakeem, and TD ranked them Hakeem 1, Shaq 2, and TD 3. Elie ranked Hakeem over TD as well.

you said duncan beat grandmama, like he couldn't beat anybody good. it's not duncan's fault that ewings achilles heal was his achilles heal. duncan still waxed the knicks team that beat the hawks, bird's pacers, and riley's heat. spurs also drilled the lakers and blazers that season. still, you belittle their accomplishments.

you said the spurs beat kenyon martin. actually, the spurs beat the two time defending eastern conf champions. that was after dethroning the lakers as three time champions. that was bigger than anything the rockets did, maybe horry just doesn't want to recognize that cause he was a laker then.

you can squawk about who's a hall of famer all you want, but none of them are hall of famers. they all will be hall of famers.

and the rockets beat a 23 year old shaq and lil penny. big freaking deal. again, duncan dethroned the champs. that's something the rockets never did.

you seem to leave lots of stuff out as it relates to the spurs championship seasons. i didn't bother with non-championship seasons. did hakeem win in the finals that year? no. hakeem, 2-1. duncan, 3-0.

amare stoudamire may have scored a lot of points, that's like saying the wilkins and jordan dominated larry bird in the 80's. scoring a lot doesn't mean anything when you lose.

which do you want, team success or individual success? tim's got lots of both. unanimous ROY, all nba, all defensive team, two mvp's, three finals mvp's.

[bobbyjoe]

I love when Laker fan throws out the Knicks to try and diminish the 99 title. Tell me, oh wise Laker fan, who did the Lakers play in the 2000, 01, and 02 finals?


EDIT> Hakeem was one of the greatest big men to ever play the game. I watched his complete dominance in 1995 and I have nothing negative to say about him.

I'm in no way trying to diminish it. That was in response to the comment that Hakeem's Rockets had it easy because MJ was gone.

I found that comment pretty ironic considering who the Spurs played in 99 relative to the Malones, Stockton's, Barkley's, DRob's, Shaq's Hakeem still had to go through even if MJ wasnt around for 94.

I dont think any bigman, Tim included, has ever had the run of going through 3 of the top 10 C's of all time and winning every series and dominating the individual mathcups like Hakeem did from 94-95 against Ewing, DRob, and O'Neal.

I agree that the Lakers faced some pretty weak East opponents in 00-02, save for the Pacers in 00 who I think were still a pretty strong team. The Nets and Sixers were not.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Spurs of 99, 03, 05 were great teams, along with the Lakers of 00-02. They were always the team that gave the Lakers the most trouble in the Kobe/Shaq era and at the end of the day the bottomline regardless of who they played is that they ended up with the banner. I just thought Dave's arguments were pretty strange and illogical.

[degenerate_gambler]

Dirk will go down in history as a better player than Gervin. No one can guard Dirk because of his height. Gervin is more likely to be locked up, especially if he played against athletes like Artest, Bowen, and Battier.


You're either talking out your ass

or

You never saw the man play

or

Both

[Duncanoypi]

Hakeem played for Toronto...so Duncan > Olajuwon

[mardigan]

Firts off, I dont know why people keep refering to Gervin as some 6 foot 5 shooting guard, guy was 6-7 nightmare of a matchup. Only MJ and Wilt have more scoring titles than him, and he went to 12 straight all star games. I cant believe people on here are trying to downplay how good he was. He averaged more blocks per season than Dirk, more steals, and was always at least 5 board a game player.
"He's the one player I would pay to see," Jerry West told the Los Angeles Times in 1982 after Gervin won his fourth scoring title. Longtime NBA coach Dick Motta told the Sacramento Bee that same year, "You don't stop George Gervin. You just hope that his arm gets tired after 40 shots. I believe the guy can score when he wants to. I wonder if he gets bored out there."

Dirk is a nightmare matchup, but the only way he will ever be considered a better player will be if he wins a title, that is the only way. He might catch up to Georges scoring, but he needs over 11,000 more points, so I doubt that will happen.
As far as the idiotic Jordan argument, yea, it works both ways. Hakeem might have been lucky (although I still think those Rockets teams could have hung with MJs Bulls), and the Spurs got lucky I guess. The only difference was, when Jordan came back after the Rockets won it, he still had a similiar team tha he could compete with. After he retired again, the team was dismantled, so I really dont see the Spurs as getting lucky. And whichever idiot said that the Knocks had a shit team the year we beat them is a idiot. The team was injured all year, and finally got heathly enough to get into the playoffs, and beat every team that was put in front of them, including the Pacers team that went to the Finals the very next year and a very good Heat team. Ewing, Camby, LJ, Houston, Spree, Kurt Thomas and Charlie Ward, not a bad team at all.

[Dave McNulla]

^ 6'8"

[mardigan]

^ 6'8"
Well that may be, but he is listed as 6-7 on every site I went to

[romain.star]

the real question is : which state has welcomed the best players?
i'd go for california