IS Pop one of the 5 best NBA coaches of all time?

[whottt]

There is some evidence that he is...

Discuss...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

no

[LAKERS4LIFE]

Hell No!!!!!!!!!!!

[whottt]

Insightful...thanks.

[E20]

Red
Phil
LB
Rudy
Name me a 5th one

[LAKERS4LIFE]

Red
Phil
LB
Rudy
Name me a 5th one


http://www.nba.com/media/finals2003/riley_300_fingers.jpg

[Amuseddaysleeper]

yeah, definitely pat riley


pop has a chance to become top 5, but he's gonna need more championships

[picnroll]

Scratch Rudy

[whottt]

Most NBA Championships by coach:

9- Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson
5 - John Khundia and Pat Riley
3 - Gregg Popovich



On that list he is...he's also been a defensive innovator and his teams are consistent, excellent defensively, disciplined and good on the road(All signs of great coaching).

[whottt]

yeah, definitely pat riley


pop has a chance to become top 5, but he's gonna need more championships


http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1563257&postcount=9

[Chris]

Honestly its too soon to tell. Pop still has quite a bit of gas left in the tank.

[whottt]

Thing is...I know Pop is definitely a better GM than a coach...but his coaching resume in the important categories is becoming pretty impressive.


I don't think Pop makes great adjustments and he can definitely be obstinate...but those are about the only things wrong with his coaching.

[E20]

On that list he is...he's also been a defensive innovator and his teams are consistent, excellent defensively, disciplined and good on the road(All signs of great coaching).
I would take that into consideration moreso than ships, but I'm not disregarding titles all together, but I mean that you can't just be a one shot title and sink after that.

[leemajors]

pop can game plan like a crazy man for one game - the varied game plans he has had for phoenix over the last few years have been outstanding. over a series his lack of adjustment in game can be disturbing.

[spursfan09]

how much of it is pop, as opposed to Duncan?

[E20]

Also, Pop is fairly liberal when it comes to players. Most coaches are conservative and will stick with the old tradition of picking players out of college. Pop has seen other talent and molded into NBA stardom with the right coaching and habits; which gives him another thing to add to his list, but that would be more in the GM/Scouting, but he did COACH them into what they are today.

[bobbyjoe]

Jerry Sloan has to be on this list...No coach gets a team to execute better and consistently play for the high % shot.

He may not have any titles, but he's def a top one of all time.

The Spurs with Duncan, Tony, Manu, Bruce win titles with many guys at head coach.

Popovich is a top 5 GM of all time, dont think he is as a coach.

[LAKERS4LIFE]

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

That's an Ugly Son of a BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[ducks]

how much of it is pop, as opposed to Duncan?
HOW MANY RINGS DID ANY COACH WIN WITHOUT A MVP CANDIATE

AND WHAT IS PHIL JACKSON DOING WITH A MVP CANDIATE WITH KOBE THIS YEAR

[ducks]

Jerry Sloan has to be on this list...No coach gets a team to execute better and consistently play for the high % shot.

He may not have any titles, but he's def a top one of all time.

The Spurs with Duncan, Tony, Manu, Bruce win titles with many guys at head coach.

Popovich is a top 5 GM of all time, dont think he is as a coach.


SLOAN HAS THE JAZZ SLUMBING IN APRIL

[spursfan09]

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

That's an Ugly Son of a BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Sorry not all coaches can be blessed with the looks of colonel sanders, i mean phil jackson.

[T Park]

christ laker trolls, go to the Suns boards, your playing them.

[E20]

I was thinking of adding Sloan, but I went back to the Stockton/Malone years and thought if Pop were in that position could he have beat the Bulls? That's a tough one.

[picnroll]

Also, Pop is fairly liberal when it comes to players. Most coaches are conservative and will stick with the old tradition of picking players out of college. Pop has seen other talent and molded into NBA stardom with the right coaching and habits; which gives him another thing to add to his list, but that would be more in the GM/Scouting, but he did COACH them into what they are today.
Name me one team Jackson won a championship with that had less talent than the best team Pop's won with.

[spursfan09]

HOW MANY RINGS DID ANY COACH WIN WITHOUT A MVP CANDIATE

AND WHAT IS PHIL JACKSON DOING WITH A MVP CANDIATE WITH KOBE THIS YEAR

Either way I think POp is good. Maybe one of the greatest, but I would like to see how he does when there is no Tim Duncan on the team. Like Jerry Sloan and what he does for Utah...

[E20]

Name me one team Jackson won a championship with that had less talent than the best team Pop's won with.
I think you misread my quote. I was saying that Pop isn't afraid to go scout and sign some guy from nowhere, while other coaches might now, but he sees what they don't -- that they have talent to play and he can mold that talent into skill and into an effiecent NBA player.

[ducks]

Either way I think POp is good. Maybe one of the greatest, but I would like to see how he does when there is no Tim Duncan on the team. Like Jerry Sloan and what he does for Utah...
mailman was a mvp candiate
and stockton was a top point guard
2 very good players even though I can not stand the mailman

[Mavschick]

It's surprising to me that Pop has only won one Coach-of-the-Year award.

[spursfan09]

I'm not trying to say Sloan didn't have MVP candidates on his team at one point. I just think right now he is doing a good job of coaching a team without that kind of talent. I would like to see Pop try to do that, because it would be interesting to see how things would turn out.

[ducks]

I'm not trying to say Sloan didn't have MVP candidates on his team at one point. I just think right now he is doing a good job of coaching a team without that kind of talent. I would like to see Pop try to do that, because it would be interesting to see how things would turn out.
pop would do about what sloan is doing

but I want spurs to win titles so I want more talent onthe spurs :drunk

[lefty]

1. Red
2. Arrogant mustache
3. Pat Riley
4. Hubie
5. Pop
6. Chuck Daly

[whottt]

Hubie? Man STFU.

At least put Lenny Wilkens or someone deserving in there.

[Kobulingam]

There is some evidence that he is...

Discuss...

No way.

[T Park]

1. Phil Jackson
2. Red
3. Pat Riley
4. Popovich
5. Jerry Sloan

[Solid D]

Most NBA Championships by coach:

9- Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson
5 - John Khundia and Pat Riley
3 - Gregg Popovich



On that list he is...he's also been a defensive innovator and his teams are consistent, excellent defensively, disciplined and good on the road(All signs of great coaching).

John Kundla (not Khundia) - 5 rings in 6 years with Minneapolis

[whottt]

Spurs are about to tie some kind of record for consective winning records on the road...

Winning on the road = coaching


They have finished in the top 5 on D, PPG allowed, Opp Assists Allowed and Opp FG%, like...8 or 9 years in a row...Ain't no player ever made a team that good defensively all on his own...that too is coaching. Any good defensive team is a well coached team.

[whottt]

John Kundla (not Khundia) - 5 rings in 6 years with Minneapolis

So what are you saying? That he is the top 5 all by himself?


If not...well thanks for the spellcheck..anything else to add?

[whottt]

And yeah Pop had Duncan...and Auerbach had talented players, and so did Riley, and so did Jackson.


Even Khundia had talent.

[whottt]

The thing is...most coaches that coached for a while had a chance to coach an all time Superstar...they just didn't with them.

Other guys coached Jordan...they just didn't win with him.
Other guys coached Shaq besides Jackson...only Riley, who inarguably belongs on this list...won with him.


So I don't really think you can use the....never had talent....argument in favor of many coaches without rings, or those with only one or two rings.

Jerry Sloan...he had talent, he just didn't win with it. His players had a habit of cracking when faced with ultimate pressure...I think that's a weakness in his coaching.

True...it tended to be Karl Malone who folded more than Stockton...but still, Sloan had ample time to help Malone overcome being a choking bitch and he wasn't able to do it...he's supposed to help playrs overcome stuff like that...Coaches are supposed to instill confidence.

I've watched Phil Jackson turn chokers into clutch players...I think that's an example of great coaching.

[Solid D]

I'm suggesting that Khundia isn't even phonetically close to Kundla, a legendary NBA coach. It's not like Greg instead of Gregg.

[whottt]

I'm sorry...I meant do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion Highjack D?

Since you are the only one who was actually alive when Khundia coached...perhaps you might find some form of relevance looking along those lines of thinking.

Bueno Suerte

[Solid D]

I think Red Auerbank was good. You either know or you quote lists.

:smokin

[lefty]

Hubie? Man STFU.

At least put Lenny Wilkens or someone deserving in there.

Hubie was a great coach ; coming out of retirement and win coach of the year at 102 y/o is pretty good

[lefty]

I'm sorry...I meant do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion Highjack D?

Since you are the only one who was actually alive when Khundia coached...perhaps you might find some form of relevance looking along those lines of thinking.

Bueno Suerte

That's right ; bye; go back to the ESPN forums

[whottt]

I think Red Auerbank was good. You either know or you quote lists.

:smokin



And I think we'd all be better served if you limited your posts to here:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

Best to keep to your own kind...your ilk, as it were.

[lefty]

And I think we'd all be better served if you limited your posts to here:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

Best to keep to your own kind...your ilk, as it were.

Oh what a burn
:lol :lol :lol

[whottt]

So tell me Spellcheck D...what's more annoying, Khundia?...or Lefty's sick infatuation with the semicolon?

I'd be real careful around a poster with colon infatuation...

[lefty]

:downspin: :downspin: :downspin:

[Ronaldo McDonald]

There is no coach today, other than Phil, that demands the respect and profesionalism from his players like POP does. And the players respond. Not only that but add in his defensive scheme that has pretty much been successful ever since he started coaching this team and the three championships and I can't think of a coach who has been as effective so early in his coaching career. It's kind of like comparing TIm to the greats-to soon to tell with seemingly so much fuel still left in the tank.

[timvp]

The three that are ahead of Pop no questions asked are Phil, Red and Riley. It's tough to make an argument for anyone else.

Pop won a championship with a veteran laden team that played halfcourt all the time in 1999. He won a championship with a 20-year-old point guard, a virtual rookie at shooting guard and a foreign rookie as the sixth man in 2003. In 2005 he won with a team that was deadly on the fast break but could only go seven deep.

He's coached the best defensive teams of all-time. Sure he's had Duncan and Robinson, but he's turned very good players into all-stars (Parker, Ginobili) and bad players into decent role players (JJackson, Ferry, Elson).

The best thing about Pop is that he's a guy who can coach the same group of guys for a long time. He's not a Larry Brown or a George Karl who can only last in the same town for a couple seasons before the players turn on him.

Overall, I think at worst he's top seven. At best he's fourth.

[Solid D]

Seriously, I think winning percentages don't lie. Pop is in the top 5. With that said, I think there are other metrics by which to measure coaches, including the ability to lead and then how a team plays together regardless of the role players.

I personally think Auerbach, Riley, Holzman, Jackson, Daly and Popovich were/are all great leaders of men, motivators and built around their talent. There have been some outstanding basketball minds including Motta, Nelson, Larry Brown, Hubie Brown, Jack Ramsay, to name a few. You can't argue with results and Pop is right up there in the results department. He's been fortunate but he's also rotated lots of pieces he's always built and improved the hand he was dealt.

[whottt]

The three that are ahead of Pop no questions asked are Phil, Red and Riley. It's tough to make an argument for anyone else.

Pop won a championship with a veteran laden team that played halfcourt all the time in 1999. He won a championship with a 20-year-old point guard, a virtual rookie at shooting guard and a foreign rookie as the sixth man in 2003. In 2005 he won with a team that was deadly on the fast break but could only go seven deep.

He's coached the best defensive teams of all-time. Sure he's had Duncan and Robinson, but he's turned very good players into all-stars (Parker, Ginobili) and bad players into decent role players (JJackson, Ferry, Elson).

The best thing about Pop is that he's a guy who can coach the same group of guys for a long time. He's not a Larry Brown or a George Karl who can only last in the same town for a couple seasons before the players turn on him.

Overall, I think at worst he's top seven. At best he's fourth.


Nice take...but what are your thoughts on Khundia?

As SideTrackD pointed out...5 rings in 6 years. That's Auerbachian...without the 7 HOFers Auerbach had annually.

[bobbyjoe]

I was thinking of adding Sloan, but I went back to the Stockton/Malone years and thought if Pop were in that position could he have beat the Bulls? That's a tough one.

I dont think he would have.

The Jazz had matchup problems with Chicago. The Bulls had a great post defender to disrupt Karl Malone.

For the Jazz, you had Hornacek and Russell as your wing defenders to face Jordan and Pippen. Hornacek had to guard someone which is something the Bulls exposed.

The Bulls defensive strength was Pippen/Jordan's ability to play passing lanes and lock down creators. This was a good answer to Stockton.

Still, the Jazz faced off with arguably the best teams in the history of the NBA and played them as tough as anyone ever did.

Popovich never had to face a team as good as the Bulls. If I'm facing MJ, I'd rather go armed with Tim Duncan as Pop had than Malone. Plus, Sloan did defeat Pop 4-1 in 1998 with Tim Duncan a Spur.

I dont think Pop would be nearly as effective as Sloan on teams like the current Jazz, who are serious overachievers without a true star.

Defensively, both actually have very similar philosohpies, but Pop just has better personnel. And SLoan is a much better coach of offense than Pop.

[bobbyjoe]

pop would do about what sloan is doing

but I want spurs to win titles so I want more talent onthe spurs :drunk

And you know that how?

When has Pop ever been in that situation? Hasn't he actually been quoted as saying when Tim leaves, I leave (which implies Pop wouldnt even want to have to deal with the above scenario).

[Amuseddaysleeper]

And you know that how?

When has Pop ever been in that situation? Hasn't he actually been quoted as saying when Tim leaves, I leave (which implies Pop wouldnt even want to have to deal with the above scenario).


good point


for me, any argument of PJ being the greatest coach of all time got laid to rest when he pushed the suns to 7 games last year with the roster that he had. Yes, the lakers have been struggling lately, and they did lose the PHX series after being up 3-2, but PJ knows how to expose your weakness

I'd be very interested to see how Pop would do with a team like the current jazz or if he was handed the Hornets

[Texas_Ranger]

nope.

[mathbzh]

Maybe!
I will wait a few more year to see what he can do without Duncan.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Maybe!
I will wait a few more year to see what he can do without Duncan.

he'll retire when TD retires

[SRJ]

Pop is a fantastic coach, but not quite top five. Here's my top ten:

1. Red Auerbach - the ultimate architect, Red built a dynasty around a defensive player. He saw the value in the transition game twenty-five years before "Showtime" and emphasized conditioning. As general manager, he drafted an entire wing of the Hall of Fame. As a coach, he recognized that the players make the plays, so he didn't demand that Cousy curtail the fancy elements of his game, nor did he demand that Russell attend practice all the time. Small concessions like those create fierce loyalty from players.

2. Phil Jackson - has never been the one to assemble the talent, and he has coached some of the greatest players of all time, but he has done wonders with those rosters. Four of his championship teams have won at least 67 games. Like all great coaches, Jackson insists on great defense and usually gets it; on the offensive end, Phil Jackson has been noted for his use of Tex Winters Triangle offense, which distinguishes Jackson from his peers.

3. Larry Brown - give this man a basketball team and he'll win with it in a few years, if not immediately. Had he stuck around in New York long enough, I have no doubt they would have made the playoffs this season or next. No coach is better at emphasizing the strengths and minimizing the weaknesses of his roster. No bench? Brown rides the starters. Athletic team? Brown picks up the pace. Defensive team? Brown slows the game down. Larry Brown has won with every kind of roster imaginable - in fact, I'd love to see another coach take the 2001 Philadelphia 76ers, win 56 games and reach the Finals with it. I'm doubting that any other coach but Brown could have done that.

4. Pat Riley - Riley has won everywhere he's gone, employing many different styles along the way; four titles with the Showtime Lakers, a 1994 Finals appearance in New York, and a fifth title with the Heat over a superior (IMO) opponent. He's won with great players, like all top coaches must, although the 1994 Knicks didn't feature the greatest roster ever.

5. Bill Fitch - turned the expansion Cavaliers into a winner in the 70's, won the 1981 championship with Bird's Celtics, coached the Olajuwon-Sampson Rockets past the Lakers in 1986 before losing to the Celtics in the Finals, even snuck the Clippers into the playoffs in 1997. Like Auerbach, Fitch was a believer in conditioning and his halfcourt offenses were always very precise. Though the Celtics would win two titles under KC Jones in 1984 and 1986, Larry Bird said that Fitch was the best coach he had ever known - and for that reason selected Fitch to present him during Bird's Hall of Fame induction.

6. Chuck Daly - Daly's Detroit teams were not cast in the image of their chief rivals, the Lakers and the Celtics. The late 80's Pistons, assembled by GM Jack McCloskey, were not top heavy. While the Celtics and Lakers had more All-Stars, Detroit had more talent 1-9 than their rivals and Daly took full advantage of this. Daly made extensive use of his roster and as a result his teams were fresher than everybody else come playoff time. Also, Daly was primarily responsible for the sort of team defense we see today. Daly's defenses, more frequently than any defense of that era, trapped, switched, double-teamed, and filled the lane. Coaches around the league complained, including Pat Riley, but by the end of the 1990's most coaches played this style of defense. Riley was one of the first to do so after Daly. In fact, it was said that the NBA's adoption of the zone defense was the result of referees having to call the illegal defense violation multiple times, night after night. Coaches enjoyed moving their defenders around, so the league adjusted its rules.

7. Gregg Popovich - perhaps the NBA's greatest proponent of "defense first", Popovich has had the great luxury of going into every contest with the greatest power forward of all time, Tim Duncan, on his team. Despite Duncan's ubiquity, the rest of the roster hasn't always been constant - but the winning has. Popovich inherited an All-Star calibur David Robinson and won a title with he and Duncan in 1999; the same Robinson was relegated to role player status in 2003, but the Spurs won a second NBA title. That 2003 team was a testament to Duncan's greatness on the floor and Popovich's greatness on the bench - the 2003 roster was very old (Robinson, Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis) AND very young (Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Stephen Jackson, Speedy Claxton). Despite such a schizophrenic roster, that team won 60 games, dethroned the three-peat champion LA Lakers, and went on to win the championship. Some may discredit Popovich's accomplishments due to Duncan's presence on the roster, but many players in Duncan's class haven't enjoyed the same sort of sustained success. It takes a sound gameplan and strict attention to detail to win 58 games a year for ten years.

8. Don Nelson - see Larry Brown, although Nelson has an even greater instinct for attacking his opponent's weakness. Nelson's greatest failing as a coach was in never having a good enough roster to win at all, and Nelson himself was, at times, responsible for that state of affairs; he has been his own GM before.

9. John Kundla - he deserves some credit for the great run of the first Lakers dynasty, but I have him rated this low because Minneapolis not only had the best starting five going at that time (George Mikan, Vern Mikkelsen, Jim Pollard, and Slater Martin were the mainstays in that lineup), the rest of the league had no answer at all for Mikan. It wasn't like any other era in NBA history - Mikan literally was in a class by himself in the early 50's. He was averaging 27-28 points per game at a time when only one or two other players would average in the low 20's. Relative to the era, Kundla had the greatest weapon in league history on his side as well as other great players. Kundla did accomplish a lot, but in my opinion he had it easier than any other NBA coach ever has.

10. Hubie Brown - an assistant with the great 1972 Milwaukee Bucks, Hubie Brown won the 1975 ABA championship with quasi-Twin Towers (Artis Gilmore and Dan Issel), and he has coached numerous other franchises into the playoffs. He is noted for incorporating statistical analysis and charts into his preparation, and has long been a proponent of point differential as an indicator of success. He even won 50 games with Memphis. Read that last sentence again.

Bob Hill ranks just above Jerry Tarkanian, Morris McHone, and Dick Vitale, in case you were wondering.

[cherylsteele]

I was wondering if someone was going to mention Larry Brown.....SRJ beat me to it.

Here are some other names:
Jack Ramsey
Dick Motta
Gene Shue
Red Holzman
Cotton Fitzsimmons

[Kori Ellis]

Whottt? :wtf

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63340

[Jimcs50]

Prior to 06 playoffs....maybe

After 06 playoffs.......not even close

[TDMVPDPOY]

pop still hasnt find a way around smallball

[romain.star]

pop is cute, pop is good, pop is smart, pop is God

[JamStone]

He might be, but he probably isn't.

I would agree with most opinions that Red, Phil Jackson, and Pat Riley are essentially the top 3, although I must admit that I really don't know much about Red Auerbach's coaching style and skill as a leader, motivator, and x's and o's strategist.

As much as he's a drama queen, I have to believe Larry Brown is also one of the greatest coaches ever, simply because he won whereever he went except for the one year with the Knicks. He made it happen with lots of talent and with little talent, and he was always teaching.

That's four right there, and there are very good arguments for guys like Don Nelson as a non-conventionalist strategist, Chuck Daly as a master revolutionary, and Hubie Brown as a teacher. I would rank Pop favorably in this group after the top 4 mentioned. And, it would be a matter of taste who you would prefer. I do think if Pop were able to go deep in the playoffs without Tim Duncan, it would substantially increase the perception of him as a coach. Although, I don't think he is that concerned about his legacy individually as a coach.

[nkdlunch]

he's top 10. not top 5

[Tbiggums]

Pop is a fantastic coach, but not quite top five. Here's my top ten:

1. Red Auerbach - the ultimate architect, Red built a dynasty around a defensive player. He saw the value in the transition game twenty-five years before "Showtime" and emphasized conditioning. As general manager, he drafted an entire wing of the Hall of Fame. As a coach, he recognized that the players make the plays, so he didn't demand that Cousy curtail the fancy elements of his game, nor did he demand that Russell attend practice all the time. Small concessions like those create fierce loyalty from players.

2. Phil Jackson - has never been the one to assemble the talent, and he has coached some of the greatest players of all time, but he has done wonders with those rosters. Four of his championship teams have won at least 67 games. Like all great coaches, Jackson insists on great defense and usually gets it; on the offensive end, Phil Jackson has been noted for his use of Tex Winters Triangle offense, which distinguishes Jackson from his peers.

3. Larry Brown - give this man a basketball team and he'll win with it in a few years, if not immediately. Had he stuck around in New York long enough, I have no doubt they would have made the playoffs this season or next. No coach is better at emphasizing the strengths and minimizing the weaknesses of his roster. No bench? Brown rides the starters. Athletic team? Brown picks up the pace. Defensive team? Brown slows the game down. Larry Brown has won with every kind of roster imaginable - in fact, I'd love to see another coach take the 2001 Philadelphia 76ers, win 56 games and reach the Finals with it. I'm doubting that any other coach but Brown could have done that.

4. Pat Riley - Riley has won everywhere he's gone, employing many different styles along the way; four titles with the Showtime Lakers, a 1994 Finals appearance in New York, and a fifth title with the Heat over a superior (IMO) opponent. He's won with great players, like all top coaches must, although the 1994 Knicks didn't feature the greatest roster ever.

5. Bill Fitch - turned the expansion Cavaliers into a winner in the 70's, won the 1981 championship with Bird's Celtics, coached the Olajuwon-Sampson Rockets past the Lakers in 1986 before losing to the Celtics in the Finals, even snuck the Clippers into the playoffs in 1997. Like Auerbach, Fitch was a believer in conditioning and his halfcourt offenses were always very precise. Though the Celtics would win two titles under KC Jones in 1984 and 1986, Larry Bird said that Fitch was the best coach he had ever known - and for that reason selected Fitch to present him during Bird's Hall of Fame induction.

6. Chuck Daly - Daly's Detroit teams were not cast in the image of their chief rivals, the Lakers and the Celtics. The late 80's Pistons, assembled by GM Jack McCloskey, were not top heavy. While the Celtics and Lakers had more All-Stars, Detroit had more talent 1-9 than their rivals and Daly took full advantage of this. Daly made extensive use of his roster and as a result his teams were fresher than everybody else come playoff time. Also, Daly was primarily responsible for the sort of team defense we see today. Daly's defenses, more frequently than any defense of that era, trapped, switched, double-teamed, and filled the lane. Coaches around the league complained, including Pat Riley, but by the end of the 1990's most coaches played this style of defense. Riley was one of the first to do so after Daly. In fact, it was said that the NBA's adoption of the zone defense was the result of referees having to call the illegal defense violation multiple times, night after night. Coaches enjoyed moving their defenders around, so the league adjusted its rules.

7. Gregg Popovich - perhaps the NBA's greatest proponent of "defense first", Popovich has had the great luxury of going into every contest with the greatest power forward of all time, Tim Duncan, on his team. Despite Duncan's ubiquity, the rest of the roster hasn't always been constant - but the winning has. Popovich inherited an All-Star calibur David Robinson and won a title with he and Duncan in 1999; the same Robinson was relegated to role player status in 2003, but the Spurs won a second NBA title. That 2003 team was a testament to Duncan's greatness on the floor and Popovich's greatness on the bench - the 2003 roster was very old (Robinson, Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis) AND very young (Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Stephen Jackson, Speedy Claxton). Despite such a schizophrenic roster, that team won 60 games, dethroned the three-peat champion LA Lakers, and went on to win the championship. Some may discredit Popovich's accomplishments due to Duncan's presence on the roster, but many players in Duncan's class haven't enjoyed the same sort of sustained success. It takes a sound gameplan and strict attention to detail to win 58 games a year for ten years.

8. Don Nelson - see Larry Brown, although Nelson has an even greater instinct for attacking his opponent's weakness. Nelson's greatest failing as a coach was in never having a good enough roster to win at all, and Nelson himself was, at times, responsible for that state of affairs; he has been his own GM before.

9. John Kundla - he deserves some credit for the great run of the first Lakers dynasty, but I have him rated this low because Minneapolis not only had the best starting five going at that time (George Mikan, Vern Mikkelsen, Jim Pollard, and Slater Martin were the mainstays in that lineup), the rest of the league had no answer at all for Mikan. It wasn't like any other era in NBA history - Mikan literally was in a class by himself in the early 50's. He was averaging 27-28 points per game at a time when only one or two other players would average in the low 20's. Relative to the era, Kundla had the greatest weapon in league history on his side as well as other great players. Kundla did accomplish a lot, but in my opinion he had it easier than any other NBA coach ever has.

10. Hubie Brown - an assistant with the great 1972 Milwaukee Bucks, Hubie Brown won the 1975 ABA championship with quasi-Twin Towers (Artis Gilmore and Dan Issel), and he has coached numerous other franchises into the playoffs. He is noted for incorporating statistical analysis and charts into his preparation, and has long been a proponent of point differential as an indicator of success. He even won 50 games with Memphis. Read that last sentence again.

Bob Hill ranks just above Jerry Tarkanian, Morris McHone, and Dick Vitale, in case you were wondering.

Agree with most of your list with the exception of Larry Brown, Bill Fitch? and Chuck Daly? ahead of Pop? U R Smokin. :smokin

[JamStone]

Spurs are about to tie some kind of record for consective winning records on the road...

Winning on the road = coaching


Does that mean you believe Flip Saunders has done a great coaching job the last two years at Detroit? Honest and sincere question. The Pistons winning a great percentage on the road the last two years, is that a credit to Flip Saunders?

[Dave McNulla]

Pop is a fantastic coach, but not quite top five. Here's my top ten:

1. Red Auerbach

2. Phil Jackson

3. Larry Brown

4. Pat Riley

5. Bill Fitch

6. Chuck Daly

7. Gregg Popovich

8. Don Nelson

9. John Kundla

10. Hubie Brown

i just don't put larry brown that high. he won championships with the aba, ncaa, and nba, but the nba is the highest and he only won once. he can't stick with a team long enough to take them to the next level. even his championship came from taking over a ecf team. i'd put pop over bill and chuck too. he's had 11 teams, only 15 all-star appearances by players, and three championships. and i don't think he's done.

[Testing]

I think 2005 proved that Pop>>Brown.

Brown is a great coach...but his tendency to relocate and inability to sustain a motivating and strong relationship with his players over time, may be his downfall...something which Pop on the hand is great with.

[T Park]

:lmao

Bill Fitch?

Chuck Daly?


:lmao

[tlongII]

There have been more than 5 coaches in the history of the NBA so I would say no.

[JamStone]

I think 2005 proved that Pop>>Brown.

Brown is a great coach...but his tendency to relocate and inability to sustain a motivating and strong relationship with his players over time, may be his downfall...something which Pop on the hand is great with.


So does 2006 prove Avery Johnson>>Pop?

Does that also mean the talent and skill of the 2005 Spurs = talent and skill of the 2005 Pistons? At the time, many if not the majority of Spurs fans thought it was going to be a 4-5 game series in favor of the Spurs between the two teams in the 2005 NBA Finals.

Uhhhh, ask Pop who he thinks is a better coach between himself and Larry Brown.

[T Park]

He would always say larry brown, due to him worshiping the ground he walks on.

Thats like asking Duncan whos the better teammate Parker or Manu.

[Fabbs]

Roster and coaching.

John Wooden was asked what was his best coaching year.
Surely he would say it was one of the undefeated Lew Alcindor - Billy Walton teams, right?

No. He said a team that was struggling below .500, had a rebirth and finished 16-10. Did not make the NCAA playoffs. Overachieved. Yep, that was his best year.

Pop and roster? Yeah he's won three but has had the cream years of Duncan Manu and Parker. Last year drops him out of any top 5 talk.
Phil J coach of Spurs from 2000-2006? 4 titles minimum.

[ambchang]

So does 2006 prove Avery Johnson>>Pop?

Does that also mean the talent and skill of the 2005 Spurs = talent and skill of the 2005 Pistons? At the time, many if not the majority of Spurs fans thought it was going to be a 4-5 game series in favor of the Spurs between the two teams in the 2005 NBA Finals.

Uhhhh, ask Pop who he thinks is a better coach between himself and Larry Brown.
I agree with you based on the your conclusion that 2005 does not prove Pop > Brown because of the talent and skill, but I have to disagree on the 4-5 game series comment.
Many fans were underestimating the ability of Detroit that year, and those who had any basketball knowledge knew the series was going to go at least 6, and using Spurs fans as a base to analyse talent is flawed because we are obviously biased, and some are just plain unknowledgable.
Besides, everybody and their cousins were rooting for Detroit that year for whatever reason.
On the other hand, 2004 proved that Brown > Phil Jackson. :lol :lol
Also to comment on T Park's :lol on Chuck Daly, Daly won back to backs with a team that was made up of unwanted players (other than Thomas and Dumars) in an era dominated by the Magic Lakers and Jordan Bulls (some of the best teams in the history of the league).

[ambchang]

Roster and coaching.

John Wooden was asked what was his best coaching year.
Surely he would say it was one of the undefeated Lew Alcindor - Billy Walton teams, right?

No. He said a team that was struggling below .500, had a rebirth and finished 16-10. Did not make the NCAA playoffs. Overachieved. Yep, that was his best year.

Pop and roster? Yeah he's won three but has had the cream years of Duncan Manu and Parker. Last year drops him out of any top 5 talk.
Phil J coach of Spurs from 2000-2006? 4 titles minimum.

1999 and 2003 were cream years of Many and Parker?
I would love to see how Phil Jackson Spurs with Duncan, an aging Robinson, as well as no big guards would do from 2000 to 2003. The Spurs roster would not allow a triangle offense (Duncan would be perfect, but the Jacksons and Avery Johnson? Get outta here).

[whottt]

Whottt? :wtf

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63340

That's different...


Besides, I am not saying he is a top 5...just that I think there is a case for it.


And even if he is top 5? If he plays small ball against the Mavs? I want him fired.

[Kori Ellis]

That's different...


Besides, I am not saying he is a top 5...just that I think there is a case for it.


And even if he is top 5? If he plays small ball against the Mavs? I want him fired.

:lol

Okay.

[ShoogarBear]

Pop is definitely in the discussion, and if he wins another ring, he's #3 or 4.

Jackson and Red definitely rank above him. Riley has an advantage just because he's been able to demonstrate that he can win with multiple teams and multiple styles.

Of course all the different ways Pop's been able to win championships is a chicken-egg question with Tim Duncan.

No way Bill Fitch is a top 5 all-time coach. But Chuck Daly is definitely underrated.

Coming up in 2015 . . .


Is AJ one of the 5 best NBA coaches of all time?

[Fabbs]

1999 and 2003 were cream years of Many and Parker?
I would love to see how Phil Jackson Spurs with Duncan, an aging Robinson, as well as no big guards would do from 2000 to 2003. The Spurs roster would not allow a triangle offense (Duncan would be perfect, but the Jacksons and Avery Johnson? Get outta here).
Whatchu talking about, Willis?
Mario Elie, Derek Anderson, Stephen Jackson, Antonio Daniels and Manu did get a title with pop in 2003.

[2centsworth]

Thats like asking Duncan whos the better teammate Parker or Manu.

what would Duncan say?

[whottt]

Does that mean you believe Flip Saunders has done a great coaching job the last two years at Detroit? Honest and sincere question. The Pistons winning a great percentage on the road the last two years, is that a credit to Flip Saunders?


Flip's legacy of post season flops outweigh any other positives in his coaching career.

If Pop had 26 consecutive first round exits...he wouldn't be in this discussion.


Flip=Flop

[Spurminator]

Not that I'm hoping for this any time soon, but it would be interesting to see if he could be a successful coach in another situation. All we really know about him is what he's been able to do with a team built around Tim Duncan.

[ShoogarBear]

Not that I'm hoping for this any time soon, but it would be interesting to see if he could be a successful coach in another situation. All we really know about him is what he's been able to do with a team built around Tim Duncan.I have the same question. Of course, Auerbach did little of note in the 10+ years he coached before Bill Russell came along.

[miss paxton]

Whatchu talking about, Willis?
Mario Elie, Derek Anderson, Stephen Jackson, Antonio Daniels and Manu did get a title with pop in 2003.

Elie, Anderson and Daniels weren't with the Spurs in 2003.

[ShoogarBear]

Whatchu talking about, Willis?
Mario Elie, Derek Anderson, Stephen Jackson, Antonio Daniels and Manu did get a title with pop in 2003.This may be the WTF? post of the day.

[FromWayDowntown]

Man, I remember when DA got that ring. It was sweet.

[Fabbs]

This may be the WTF? post of the day.

Original post said:

would love to see how Phil Jackson Spurs with Duncan, an aging Robinson, as well as no big guards would do from 2000 to 2003.

The others most certainly were on the Spurs in 00 or 1 or 02, and 03 had both Steven Jackson and Manu.

I think you two were reading my post as if I was saying all were on the Spurs in 2003.

Oh yeah and 6'6" Jaret Jackson also. Plenty of big guards in 2000-2006 for the Philmeister to have the Spurs repeating and doing 3 or 4 of 6 Champs.

[Spurminator]

I can't believe we got a title with such an overstacked roster at the guard position. Duncan, Robinson and Gilmore really carried the load in the paint.

[ambchang]

Whatchu talking about, Willis?
Mario Elie, Derek Anderson, Stephen Jackson, Antonio Daniels and Manu did get a title with pop in 2003.
Derek Anderson and Antonio Daniels were in Portland, Mario Elie retired and Manu didn't play signficant minutes then.
That left us with Stephen Jackson .... I would have guessed that ANY team will have one decent big guard, because that guy is called the starting shooting guard.
Unless you want to say that Kerr, Steve Smith and Devin Brown were decent quality big guards.
Before you go out and say Phil Jackson can win 4 ships with a team, at least know who is on the roster before you spew stuff out.
Finally, do you know how the triangle offense works? Just curious.
EDIT: Were you mentioning Kevin Willis as a big guard?

[ambchang]

Original post said:


The others most certainly were on the Spurs in 00 or 1 or 02, and 03 had both Steven Jackson and Manu.

I think you two were reading my post as if I was saying all were on the Spurs in 2003.

Oh yeah and 6'6" Jaret Jackson also. Plenty of big guards in 2000-2006 for the Philmeister to have the Spurs repeating and doing 3 or 4 of 6 Champs.
Your quote then distinctly say 2003, but if you want to talk from 00 to 03, sure. I will list out the year and the big guards available that year.
00:
Mario Elie - all you need to know is that Terry Porter averaged more points than he did that year, he played one more season with the Suns, and retired.
Jaren Jackson - he was terrible that year, he proceeded to play 25 games the two years after that, he was terrible.
Antonio Daniels - His game was still not developed at that point, he would find his game in Seattle 4 seasons later.
01:
Derek Anderson - He got hurt in the playoffs, and my assumption is that not playing in the playoffs won't help the Spurs win a championship, no?
Antonio Daniels - see above.
Jaren Jackson - see above, only he was even worse in 01.
02:
Steve Smith - Who can forget his performance in the playoffs that year? He was about as effective as Phil Jackson's 3rd or 4th guards in those championship years, but guess what? He was the Spurs 3rd leading scorer that year!
Antonio Daniels - See above. To be fair, he has improved over 00 and 01, but again, at best a 3rd or 4th guard on Phil Jackson's championship squads.
That brings us to 03, please see previous post.

[ShoogarBear]

I think you two were reading my post as if I was saying all were on the Spurs in 2003.I think everyone is reading the post that way; in fact, I'm nost sure there's another way to read it.

So your point is the Spurs had lots of big guards from 2000 to 2003 (although you left out Steve Smith), to refute the contention by the other post that they didn't have any?

[Solid D]

Another coach in the NBA who deserves mentioning is Alex Hannum. He coached St. Louis to a title when Petit was there and then, when I really started following basketball closely, he was coaching the 76ers with their great teams. They won an NBA title under Hannum. He was an excellent coach and he even took an ABA team in Oakland that was horrible and took them to an ABA Championship over the Indiana Pacers. Of course, that team added Rick Barry, Doug Moe and Larry Brown to its roster but Hannum did a nice job with that bunch. Hannum was well-respected by players and coaches.

[Fabbs]

I think everyone is reading the post that way; in fact, I'm nost sure there's another way to read it.

So your point is the Spurs had lots of big guards from 2000 to 2003 (although you left out Steve Smith), to refute the contention by the other post that they didn't have any?
Yep. Not to mention any FAs who would have come over to Philville, ie Ron Harper (altho I'm not big on Harper, look at the titles with Phil). Altho i would leave out Steve Smith. :elephant
But Kerr would play in the Phil system, as he did in the Bulls titles.
Pop had no intention of playing him in WCFs Game 6 Mavs of 2003. Only injuries to Tony and Speedy got him in the 2nd half. He was the turning point of that game, no doubt. :clap 4-4 on treys and a bunch of nice entry passes to Duncan that were batted away earlier when Tony and Speedy tried it. Otherwise we were looking at 3-3.

[JamStone]

Flip's legacy of post season flops outweigh any other positives in his coaching career.

If Pop had 26 consecutive first round exits...he wouldn't be in this discussion.


Flip=Flop


That doesn't answer my question.

I asked whether the Detroit Pistons' road record the last two seasons mean that Flip Saunders has done a great coaching job for the Pistons in THESE TWO SEASONS. If winning on the road is attributable to coaching, does that mean Detroit's road record the last two seasons is attributable to Flip Saunders' coaching? Answer please.

[SequSpur]

who the shit is Alex Hannum

[RC's Boss]

who the shit is Alex Hannum
He's one of the Bang Bros.

[whottt]

That doesn't answer my question.

I asked whether the Detroit Pistons' road record the last two seasons mean that Flip Saunders has done a great coaching job for the Pistons in THESE TWO SEASONS. If winning on the road is attributable to coaching, does that mean Detroit's road record the last two seasons is attributable to Flip Saunders' coaching? Answer please.


Yeah Flip deserves credit for that. But only partial and it doesn't carry as much weight with him...because he did inherit a 2 time finalist.

He also deserves credit for the record they had last year...but again, two time finalist.


Add it all up...with Flips track record in Minnesota, the fact that he alienated Ben Wallace, Heat last year...and 2 years of winning on the road just doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. That's about his pinnacle as a coach...

Lots of coaches had winning records 2 years in a row though...even 3, few have done it 8 or 9 in a row like Pop....and Flip had Garnett.


Flip has something to prove, and until he proves it, like Pop has, his positives won't count near as much as his negatives.

[Solid D]

who the s*** is Alex Hannum

Alex is enshrined in Springfield. Must I always have to spoonfeed?

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/bhof-alex-hannum.html

[SequSpur]

Alex is enshrined in Springfield. Must I always have to spoonfeed?

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/bhof-alex-hannum.html

you are the epitomy of news that you can't use.

[whottt]

epitomy


PWNT

[Solid D]

you are the epitomy of news that you can't use.

Just doing my part to help you catch up with the rest of the group.

[Dave McNulla]

Original post said:


The others most certainly were on the Spurs in 00 or 1 or 02, and 03 had both Steven Jackson and Manu.

I think you two were reading my post as if I was saying all were on the Spurs in 2003.

Oh yeah and 6'6" Jaret Jackson also. Plenty of big guards in 2000-2006 for the Philmeister to have the Spurs repeating and doing 3 or 4 of 6 Champs.
the best thing about phil coaching the spurs from 2000-2006 is that he isn't coaching the lakers. still, he doesn't win in 2000 cause tim is hurt. anything beyond that is speculation.

i think phil is stronger at developing self-confidence, but not in x's and o's. pop tried so hard to turn guys like hedo and nick around, but was never successful. other guys like stephen jackson did ok with pop. with phil, i'm just impressed that he got a schmuck like derek fisher to hit big shots.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

yeah, I think Pop is still TBD , after 2005 I was thinking he had a chance to make a case of being one of those great coaches.

and I really wanted to see him go head to head with Pat Riley last year.

I don't think having a 70 percent win percentage, and always being contention automatically means Pop was riding Timmy. So I'd say Pop has a good chance of being top 5.

Despite his flaws (stupid losses, he DOES get outcoached and exploited) . He's no Phil Jackson or anything, but he's one of the best coaches in the league today, no doubt about that.