Game Blog: Spurs vs Kings, Wednesday April 11, 2007

[aaronstampler]

[QUOTE=Testing]:wtf He scored 30 points against the Blazers...how was he a -1??

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20070409&game=PORSAS

He was our worst +/- for anyone in the top 10 vs. Portland and second worst (after Elson) vs. Sac.

[Kori Ellis]

...

I was unaware he was hurt and perhaps if that's the case Kori was right. It just appeared to me that he was expending most of his effort/energy at one end of the floor for the majority of the game, and absolutely nobody on the Spurs can play that way.

Just FYI ...

It said in yesterday morning's Express-News that he had an injured back and couldn't go in practice on Tuesday. Yesterday morning he worked out with the trainer and they said that he was hurting but he was cleared to play.

30 minutes before the game, they told us that he would start but not get many minutes because he was so tight. After the game he said he was okay, but tight.

[T Park]

:lol

shocking

Not gonna say anything, but, Parker has a good game, yet a certain person rips him up.

:lol pathetic.

[aaronstampler]

:lol

shocking

Not gonna say anything, but, Parker has a good game, yet a certain person rips him up.

:lol pathetic.


When I say something that's untrue TPark, you let me know.

[timvp]

I've said this over and over again, but nobody seems to understand. The team doesn't need Tony to score a lot to win, they just need him to play smart team basketball. If you pay attention to the games and studied the data, you'd figure these things out for yourself.

The best games Tony plays and the best games we play as a team are when he's locked in on defense and not looking for his shot so much.

You wanna call me biased or a hater, go ahead. But I do my research and I pay attention.

You might want to recheck your stats.


The Spurs are 13-1 all-time in the playoffs when Parker scores 25 or more points in a game.

The Spurs are 19-11 all-time in the playoffs when Duncan scores 30 or more points in a game.

The Spurs are 11-7 all-time in the playoffs when Ginobili scores more than 20 points in a game.

The Spurs are 19-14 all-time in the playoffs when Parker has 6 or more assists in a game.

The Spurs are 21-12 all-time in the playoffs when Duncan has 5 or more assists in a game.

The Spurs are 8-1 all-time in the playoffs when Manu has 6 or more assists in a game.

Add that up and tell me who should be scoring and who should be passing come playoff time.

I'll be waiting.

:smokin

[T Park]

Timvp as usual does the leg work for me :lol

[T Park]

When I say something that's untrue TPark, you let me know.

as TIMVP has shown with the stats above and in previous threads, you continue to harp on a concept thats flawed and moronic.

Period.

[ducks]

aaronstampler
This message is hidden because aaronstampler is on your ignore list.

is the best way to deal with aaronstampler

someone has to quote him in order for me to see what he says
but he gets owned so much it is not even funny

[timvp]

You might want to recheck your stats.


The Spurs are 13-1 all-time in the playoffs when Parker scores 25 or more points in a game.

The Spurs are 19-11 all-time in the playoffs when Duncan scores 30 or more points in a game.

The Spurs are 11-7 all-time in the playoffs when Ginobili scores more than 20 points in a game.

The Spurs are 19-14 all-time in the playoffs when Parker has 6 or more assists in a game.

The Spurs are 21-12 all-time in the playoffs when Duncan has 5 or more assists in a game.

The Spurs are 8-1 all-time in the playoffs when Manu has 6 or more assists in a game.

Add that up and tell me who should be scoring and who should be passing come playoff time.

I'll be waiting.

:smokin

Sometimes timvp even impresses himself.

:fro

[T Park]

:lmao

[aaronstampler]

Timvp as usual does the leg work for me :lol

That's because you're too lazy to do anything but type.

As far as TimVP's numbers, here's what I have to say about that...

1) None of those factoids address how Parker was playing defense in those particular games, which is what I posted about. I'm going to go ahead and guess that in general he played better defense in the playoff games we won than the ones we didn't. Because I'm crazy that way.

2) If you're waiting for me to complain when the ball is in Manu's hands and he's getting assists out of it, you're going to be waiting an awfully long time. It doesn't bother me when we pass the ball around a lot and Tony gets the shot. What gets troublesome is when we have situations like Portland where the dude literally just dribbles down the floor and shoots like six straight times. Then the offense gets stagnant and stagnant offense begets stagnant defense. You need people to touch the ball to feel involved in the game. We had 2 whole assists in that 3rd quarter vs the Blazers. Yikes.
Me, I'm a sucker for ball movement.

3) I contend that the reason we've done so well when Tony's scored 25+ in the playoffs is that some teams we've played simply couldn't execute the number 1 rule of their defensive game plan: STOP TONY PARKER'S PENETRATION. If they're gonna give Tony lay-ups all day, then yeah, it's most likely gonna be an easy game.

4) Since Manu is usually the third option when the big three are on the floor, and they are together a lot during the playoffs, any game where he gets 20 will almost surely be the result of Tim and Tony not having much going and Manu having to "save" the team in desperation. Those things usually don't work out well. Teams that trail in the 4th quarter of playoff games usually go on to lose those games.


To conclude, offense and defense are independent of each other and it's possible to have a good day at one and a bad day at the other. After the Portland game Pop was very specific, "I thought Tony had great energy on offense and Jacque on defense."

That comment wasn't lost on me. When Tony has played good defense, Pop has made sure to point it out, the same as when he's praised anyone for doing so.

Here's Tony's +/- the last 10 games...

vs. Sac ... 0
vs. Por .... -1
vs. GS .... 3
vs. Phx... 17 (team best). He was great against Barbosa all night.
vs. Sea...27 (T-team best). Held Ridnour to 2 points on 1-7 shooting.
at Ind... -1 Tinsley had 20, including the game winner.
vs. Uta...12
vs. NO....1 Paul had 20
at GS....28
at Sea...12

[Kori Ellis]

Sometimes Tony loses focus on D and expends all his energy on O. That's not a secret. Sometimes Manu just doesn't play D at all. That's not a secret either. Sometimes Tim loafs on D until the fourth quarter. No secret there either.

Tony didn't have a good game yesterday. But he did a good just distributing, despite his back problems and shooting woes.

In the post season, he's going to have to keep looking to score though inside. And keep knocking down J's when the lane isn't there.

Here's to all three of the Big 3 being big in the postseason.

:toast

[timvp]

1) None of those factoids address how Parker was playing defense in those particular games, which is what I posted about.

Uh go back and read your own post again. You said that the Spurs are best when Parker isn't looking to shoot.

You said it, not me.

12-1 in the playoffs when he scores > 25 doesn't lie. In Parker's 40 highest scoring games of his career coming into this season, the Spurs were 35-5. That doesn't lie either.

The Spurs are best when Parker is scoring. The numbers back me up.


2) If you're waiting for me to complain when the ball is in Manu's hands and he's getting assists out of it, you're going to be waiting an awfully long time.

Explain why the Spurs win more playoff games when Manu passes a lot than when he scores a lot.


3) I contend that the reason we've done so well when Tony's scored 25+ in the playoffs is that some teams we've played simply couldn't execute the number 1 rule of their defensive game plan: STOP TONY PARKER'S PENETRATION. If they're gonna give Tony lay-ups all day, then yeah, it's most likely gonna be an easy game.

Then why did you say the Spurs are best when Parker isn't looking to shoot. Be consistent in your analysis. The Spurs are best when Parker is shooting the ball. This cannot be disputed by anyone who has the capacity to use a calculator.

When Parker shoots the ball 19 times in the playoffs, the Spurs are 13-2. He doesn't even need to shoot for a high percentage. When Parker is in attack mode and is looking for his own shot, that's when the Spurs are the most dangerous.

Show me something that states otherwise.


4) Since Manu is usually the third option when the big three are on the floor, and they are together a lot during the playoffs, any game where he gets 20 will almost surely be the result of Tim and Tony not having much going and Manu having to "save" the team in desperation. Those things usually don't work out well. Teams that trail in the 4th quarter of playoff games usually go on to lose those games.

Not sure where you've been but Manu has been the team's first option in fourth quarters for about three years now. When Pop draws up a play in money time in the fourth, 80% of the time it's for Manu.

And again, if you want to say that the Spurs are best when Manu passes the ball, that makes more statistical sense than trying to say the Spurs are best when Parker passes the ball. 8-1 when the Manu has 6 or more assists doesn't lie.


To conclude, offense and defense are independent of each other and it's possible to have a good day at one and a bad day at the other. After the Portland game Pop was very specific, "I thought Tony had great energy on offense and Jacque on defense."

You really want to go there? Parker's defense has been pretty impressive this season. In fact, Parker leads NBA point guards in PER against by a wide margin. And that's even more impressive with how much small ball the Spurs have played this season.

He's not going to shut down the whole NBA point guard populous for an entire season, but on a whole it'd be pretty hard to argue against him being a top five point guard defender in the league.


That comment wasn't lost on me. When Tony has played good defense, Pop has made sure to point it out, the same as when he's praised anyone for doing so.

Links to Pop complementing Parker on his defense? Pop is always on Parker and wants him to continually get better. He's the hardest on him ... and I didn't think that has been a secret.

[ShoogarBear]

Maybe what the Spurs should do is have Tony and Manu switch defensive assignments. :lol

[aaronstampler]

To TimVP: It really wasn't my intention to make this another Manu/Tony thing, I swear.

I fully agree with you that overall Tony has been very good defensively this year. Like I said along with his FT shooting, I think it's been his biggest improvement this year. It just hasn't been there these last three games.

And also, I like it lots when Manu passes. I like it when anyone passes. I like hockey and I dig assists. The more the merrier.

I will say that I respect you for doing your research, because you're one of the very few who do and that it makes these forums worthwhile than people just swearing at each other and calling each other haters.

[T Park]

:lol

[T Park]

Links to Pop complementing Parker on his defense? Pop is always on Parker and wants him to continually get better. He's the hardest on him ... and I didn't think that has been a secret.

That IMO, is whats gonna help them vs Dallas this year, is Tony's increased efficency on the defensive end.

Being able to hang with Jason Terry, and limiting him in his open shots, kind of like what he did in game 7 against Rip hamilton, another game the haters of tony parker like to overlook.

[aaronstampler]

That IMO, is whats gonna help them vs Dallas this year, is Tony's increased efficency on the defensive end.

Being able to hang with Jason Terry, and limiting him in his open shots, kind of like what he did in game 7 against Rip hamilton, another game the haters of tony parker like to overlook.

"the haters of Tony Parker"

A bit overdramatic much? Dude you're starting to sound like Bush with the "evildoers" rhetoric.

[gilmor]

I don't mean to single him out or anything, but it gets annoying when people get excited about a player out for just having a good scoring game, especially at the point guard position, and don't pay attention to the other things.

Except for the 4th quarter last night, Tony has been pretty lax on defense the last three games. It's frustrating because up to this point I had thought that defense was his biggest improvement this season, besides the FT shooting.

His ability to stay with and frustrate Iverson, Barbosa, even holding up against Billups was critical in wins over Denver, Phoenix and Detroit. How many opposing points has he gotten pissed off to the point of technical fouls and ejections this year?

I was unaware he was hurt and perhaps if that's the case Kori was right. It just appeared to me that he was expending most of his effort/energy at one end of the floor for the majority of the game, and absolutely nobody on the Spurs can play that way.

I think the major problem with you is that you are infatuated with Manu and can't seem to comprehend that Tony is also a big part of this game. You and Ducks have the same 'sports' disease in that you fall in love with one player in a fukking team sport too fukking much.. U can't seem to comprehend that this is a freaking team sport. It didn't matter if one player sucks in one or two games or a series of games, bottom line is that the whole team plays well in a whole.. Manu, Tim or Tony will not play well in some games.. but to bash Tony in the Portland game is just insane.. How can you make other players better when they are not even scoring? From the looks of it, Tony is the only one making any difference in the 3rd quarter when Portland is matching Spurs in terms of intensity and match play.. and come on, he got 5 rebounds for a freaking point guard.. he has improved his rebounding in all games this year.. why can't you freaking give the guy some credits.. for God fukking sake..

[T Park]

"the haters of Tony Parker"

A bit overdramatic much? Dude you're starting to sound like Bush with the "evildoers" rhetoric.

you nor the other spineless wonders don't like hearing the truth.


Amazing how you dont hate on parker, but man your the first one in every darn thread to just bag the shit out of him.

[aaronstampler]

Dude, grow up. What are you Tony Parker's mommy?

[aaronstampler]

I write and respond about other things. You just don't seem to notice or care.

[T Park]

Dude, grow up. What are you Tony Parker's mommy?

Whatever.

Childish BS like that is useless.

Your hate on tony parker has been exposed and im not the only one that has accused you of it.

So its not just me.

Get over it.

[aaronstampler]

okay guy. You give me a list of which players I can comment on and what comments I'm allowed to make and I'll dutifully follow it since it's your board.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Your hate on tony parker has been exposed and im not the only one that has accused you of it.

So its not just me.

Get over it.

'Hate' is a pretty strong word.

Just because a fan's a little biased against a player doesn't necessarily make him a hater.

I'll admit I can see how he's overcritical of Tony sometimes. But it's not like he's saying he hates Tony because he gets more "praise" than Manu or Tim or whoever, like Ducks' logic (or lack thereof)

he actually culls up statistics, and valid reasons. I still think he should blame pop and accept Tony's game for what it is. Tony's capable of giving us 20 points for the team in quarter stretches, and that's definitely a plus. I'd like to see him not be so one-dimensional about it, and force his game, and I think he's getting better and maturing.



Childish BS like that is useless.

:lol

I dunno if throwing around that hater card without actually saying anything in your posts against Aaronstamplers is exactly mature either.

You contribute just as much to the "Church oppositions" as much as the supposed "haters" do.

[T Park]

He provides flawed numbers, and constantly constantly is bagging on tony parker.

Thats the point of a hater. Constantly bagging on a guy.



You contribute just as much to the "Church oppositions" as much as the supposed "haters" do.


I contribute trying to get rid of the stupid myths about playoff choker and all the other stupid BS.

thats it, thats all.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I contribute trying to get rid of the stupid myths about playoff choker and all the other stupid BS.

thats it, thats all.
Well, I do agree that some fans take Parker for granted, because of those labels.

[aaronstampler]

I contribute trying to get rid of the stupid myths about playoff choker and all the other stupid BS.

thats it, thats all.[/QUOTE]
Um, no. People like TimVP contribute to it by actually putting in the time and work. You are just this guy who loves to throw the word "hater" around and swear all the time without ever backing up ANYTHING you say with any data, anecdotal or otherwise.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm willing to give most people here the benefit of the doubt that they understand when a guy like Kobe scores 30 points on 28 shots, he's not having a great night. You are one of the few on here who doesn't understand the concept of offensive efficiency.

You remind me of these old guard sportswriters who hate SABR and haven't even read Moneyball and rail against terms like "WHIP" and "VORP" and wish we could go back to the simple days of just batting a guy lead off cos he's speedy, regardless of how imcompetent he is at getting on 1st base.

"In my day, 35 points was 35 points, and nobody cared how many shots you took or how many the other guy scored on you..." :lol :lol :rolleyes

Look out for that meteor, T-rex.

[Kori Ellis]

I disagree with posters on some particulars too but for the love of God, it doesn't need to go on and on and on. Just put each other on your ignore lists. Ruining thread after thread with childish nonsense is really, really tiring. I'm not siding with anyone. But if you can't argue basketball without having some substance - stats, history, preference, whatever, then don't argue. I'm not saying everything needs to be backed up with stats. But "shutup moron", "no, you shutup moron" is not a basketball discussion/argument.

For example, reading the exchanges between aaron and timvp is good. Both of them have some substance to their point of view. But the other back and forth crap in this thread sucks. I hate having to go back and delete tons of posts, so just be quiet already so I don't have to do it.

[exstatic]

Look out for that meteor, T-rex.
Aaron, timvp is nice about it, but he totally owned your ass in this thread. This superiority complex of your is unwarranted. The only thing you "won" was a poo-fling with TPark. Congratulations.

[aaronstampler]

I never claimed I beat TimVP, so I don't understand what you're trying to argue about. I will say that he's made me consider a couple of things I previously hadn't but I still hold firm on my basic points that Tony hasn't been good at all defensively the last three games and that this offense (and defense) works a lot better when the ball is moving.

I never said anything crazy like Tony has been a bad defensive player the whole year. I've written numerous times he's that he's been very good overall and really improved there.

There's a couple of other things that he wrote that I could have challenged, but I just decided my heart isn't in it. I'm going to avoid arguing with him and Kori unless they're just like blatantly wrong about something to the point where it offends me. Besides, they're pretty civil.

And when it comes to T-Park, my so-called superiority complex is absolutely warranted.

[ShoogarBear]

It's hilarious how suddenly now it's morphed into "Tony doesn't play enough defense", when Manu has been playing some of the worst defense of his career in stretches this year.

[aaronstampler]

Hilarious? Really? Me, I find The Office hilarious.

Or this. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=New+York,+NY&daddr=Paris,+France&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=61.845747,91.933594&layer=&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=3&ll=45.460131,-35.859375&spn=55.510286,91.933594)

(#23).