MVP Debate Rages On

[Kori Ellis]

MVP Debate Rages On

By Kori Ellis
SpursZONE.com

With the NBA playoffs right around the corner, the MVP debate rages on. With just a week left in the 2006-07 regular season, no clear cut winner has emerged. However, a case can be made for (and against) five top candidates for the award.

Kobe Bryant
Los Angeles Lakers

Points - 31.2
Rebounds - 5.6
Assists - 5.5
Blocks - .48
Steals - 1.44
FG% - 45.9
3FG% - 34.7
FT% - 86.6
Minutes - 40.8

Why?
Last month Kobe Bryant had a historic stretch of games, scoring 50 or more points in four straight outings. For the month of March, he averaged an astounding 40.4 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.5 assists, while shooting 46% from the floor. Bryant is again leading the league in scoring and is without a doubt the most explosive offensive player in the league.

Why Not?
If the MVP was awarded based on talent alone, Bryant would be a shoo-in. But when factoring in team success, Bryant falls short. Despite his histrionics, the Lakers are in seventh place in the Western Conference, hovering just above .500. At some point, individual achievements need to translate into team success and at this point there isn’t much evidence that Bryant makes his teammates better.

LeBron James
Cleveland Cavaliers

Points - 27.5
Rebounds - 6.8
Assists - 6.0
Blocks - .72
Steals - 1.62
FG% - 47.4
3FG% - 32.0
FT% - 70.3
Minutes - 41.2

Why?
Though his season stats are slightly down from a year ago, a case can be made for LeBron James. James, who is averaging seven rebounds and six assists to go along with 28 point per game, is perhaps the most well-rounded player in the league. With no other star in Cleveland, James’ contributions are invaluable.

Why Not?
The Cavaliers have been faltering as of late, losing seven of their last 12 contests while currently sitting in the fifth spot in the Eastern Conference. And although Cleveland is good, they are still not one of the league's elite teams. Until James can enjoy more team success, he will continue to be a perennial MVP candidate but always fall short.

Tim Duncan
San Antonio Spurs

Points - 20.1
Rebounds - 10.6
Assists - 3.4
Blocks - 2.36
Steals - .82
FG% - 54.2
3FG% - 11.1
FT% - 64.0
Minutes - 34.3

Why?
The Spurs, who have won 24 of their previous 27 games, are the hottest team in the NBA coming down the stretch run of the season and Duncan is the main reason. The two-time MVP is the Spurs’ main focus on offense and is one of the best defenders in the league. He is the undisputed best low-block player in the NBA and has improved his numbers across the board from a season ago.

Why Not?
The Spurs, although playing much better as of late, still trail the Suns and the Mavs in the standings. On top of that, Duncan isn’t a flashy player and his numbers don’t jump off the stat sheet. He also has two all-star quality guards (Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili) on his team that carry a lot of the load.

Steve Nash
Phoenix Suns

Points - 18.9
Rebounds - 3.5
Assists - 11.5
Blocks - .08
Steals - .76
FG% - 53.4
3FG% - 46.8
FT% - 89.3
Minutes - 35.4

Why?
Nash is a great player in his own right, but his value to the Suns is multiplied because he makes everyone on his team better. His ball distribution and ability to draw double teams opens up opportunities for the rest of his squad. His absence would likely be more significant than the other MVP candidates because everything he does on the court affects everyone else on his team.

Why Not?
It's hard to legitimately argue against Nash. One of the only arguments that I've heard against Nash winning the MVP is, "Come on, Steve Nash can't win three in a row." Certainly, it would be a huge accomplishment, seeing as the only others to accomplish the feat of three in a row are Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird. If Nash wins the MVP award again, he’d historically go down as one of the best players of all-time.

Dirk Nowitzki
Dallas Mavericks

Points - 24.7
Rebounds - 9.1
Assists - 3.4
Blocks - .83
Steals - .65
FG% - 49.9
3FG% - 41.2
FT% - 90.2
Minutes - 36.4

Why?
The Mavericks are the league’s best team and Dirk Nowitzki is the undisputed leader. He has developed into a devastating offensive player, combining a sweet outside stroke with a willingness to attack the rim. Nowitzki is also passing better than ever, while shooting at career-high clips from the field, on three-pointers and from the free throw line.

Why Not?
One can argue that Nash is a better distributor, Duncan is a better low post player, James is more dynamic and Bryant is a better scorer. However, that would ignore what Nowitzki and the Mavs have accomplished this season. The Mavs are on pace to finish with one of the best records of all-time, while Nowitzki has consistently played at a higher level than everyone else in NBA. For that reason, Nowitzki should be the hands down winner of the MVP award.

Note: Statistics reflect games played through April, 10, 2007.

http://www.woai.com/content/sports/spurs/story.aspx?content_id=c21a0b6f-0ff8-4b52-ac09-4e984522bf64

[resistanze]

Nowitzki
Duncan
Kobe
Nash
LeBron

[mardigan]

Nash/Dirk-co-mvps

[monosylab1k]

i don't even care or really want Dirk to win it. just anybody but Nash....please dear God ANYBODY but Nash...if he joins the ranks of Russell, Chamberlain, and Bird, that will be one of the biggest disgraces in the NBA.

[LEONARD]

Nash/Dirk-co-mvps

That would be pretty cool IMO...

[monosylab1k]

It's hard to legitimately argue against Nash.

His atrocious defense? But then again, Dirk can be accused of that too I suppose.

[mardigan]

That would be pretty cool IMO...
I really think its the only way to go this year

[himat]

Kobe
Dirk
Duncan
Nash
T Mac

[mardigan]

Kobe
Dirk
Duncan
Nash
T Mac
You know, its funny T-Mac has gotten no love this year, he's putting up numbers comparable to Dirks, but no mention of his name.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe/Nash/Dirk...
Kobe is more effecient than both of those players and plays on a far worse team riddled with injuries all season. Also, he's putting up crazy #'s and elevated his game to historcial levels. 2 time Player of the month as well. Still, I don't see the writers vote him in...but he definitely would get the players vote.

[Cry Havoc]

His atrocious defense? But then again, Dirk can be accused of that too I suppose.

Dirk's defense is significantly better than Nash. Dirk also grabs rebounds on the D-side of things. Nash doesn't do a damn thing for his team unless the ball is in his hands. If it's not, he's their biggest liability.

Perhaps the most eye-opening thing about this is the stat comparison between Duncan and Dirk.

Dirk has a big edge on points, while Duncan has a slight edge in boards and a huge difference in blocks. Dirk shoots much better from the stripe, but Duncan has a higher FG%.

The one stat I wasn't aware of is that Duncan gets more steals per game than Dirk.

Based on numbers alone, I might have to go with Duncan over Dirk. Of course, numbers don't tell the entire story... but I find it hard to believe that the media is so quick to discredit Duncan from the MVP race this year. I was suprised to see him in this list.

/homer rant

[td4mvp21]

His atrocious defense? But then again, Dirk can be accused of that too I suppose.
Dirk's defense isn't atrocious, he's gotten up to a decent defender. His main defensive "move", I guess you would call it, is swiping the ball away from slashers in the paint. He has good blocks from time to time (he had the block against New York that helped the Mavs win), but like I said he's decent. Nash on the other hand sucks at defense. I don't care if he takes charges, thats the easiest type of defense you can play.

[mavsfan1000]

Kobe/Nash/Dirk...
Kobe is more effecient than both of those players and plays on a far worse team riddled with injuries all season. Also, he's putting up crazy #'s and elevated his game to historcial levels. 2 time Player of the month as well. Still, I don't see the writers vote him in...but he definitely would get the players vote.
Define efficient. Dirk clearly shoots a better percentage and gets more rebounds. Dirk does what the team needs to win all the time pretty much.

[Findog]

Dirk's defense is significantly better than Nash. Dirk also grabs rebounds on the D-side of things. Nash doesn't do a damn thing for his team unless the ball is in his hands. If it's not, he's their biggest liability.



This is why I don't see the Suns getting past the Spurs. Parker has owned Nash everytime they've gone up against each other in the playoffs.

[degenerate_gambler]

i don't even care or really want Dirk to win it. just anybody but Nash....please dear God ANYBODY but Nash...if he joins the ranks of Russell, Chamberlain, and Bird, that will be one of the biggest disgraces in the NBA.


Totally agree.

[Medvedenko]

Define effeciency...well based on the NBA effeciency stats...Kobe tops them both.

[mavsfan1000]

Define effeciency...well based on the NBA effeciency stats...Kobe tops them both.
That's a meaningless stat. A real stat is how well your team is with you in the game compared to what they do without you. Dirk clearly is on the top here.

[mabber]

Define effeciency...well based on the NBA effeciency stats...Kobe tops them both.

Shouldn't the team that the player plays on have to be one of the top teams in the league for him to get the MVP award? That would eliminate Kobe as the Lakers are not one of the top teams.

[Findog]

The MVP 'debate' is just something for writers to talk about. I'd rather make playoff predictions. There is no agreed upon definition of MVP - is it the best player, the guy having the best individual season, or the person "most valuable" to their team? If it's best individual player, Nash isn't anywhere close. He's a top 10-15 player for sure, but Kobe is hands-down the best individual player in the game. As for "most valuable," how can you decide amongst LeBron, Kobe, KG, Dirk, Duncan, Nash, Arenas, Wade, etc, on who is more valuable to their teams? They're all significantly worse and up shit creek without their stars.

And riddle me this, Nash dick-lickers: Dallas loses him and gets better. The Lakers trade an aging but still effective Shaq and actually get something valuable in return, and still go from elite to middle of the pack. Could it be that Nash is in a system that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses? It's not a big thing, nor is it very impressive, that the Suns can hang 130 points on Charlotte or Atlanta in February. They have yet to prove that they can do the same 4 out 7 times in late May-June against the heavyweights. Until the Suns prove that they can put their pants on just like the big boys, they're a very good regular season team, nothing more, nothing less.

[Medvedenko]

Yes, that's why Dirk will probably win it....he's on the best team...even though I put KG ahead of him. Still, I guess being effecient doesn't matter.

[atxrocker]

i'll be happy with anybody but skirt

[Findog]

i'll be happy with anybody but skirt

U mad?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261201006

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261218023

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270127006

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270403023 (sans Dirk)

[td4mvp21]

Yes, that's why Dirk will probably win it....he's on the best team...even though I put KG ahead of him. Still, I guess being effecient doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter when your team is 40-38 and hobbling into the playoffs. Dirk's team is 65-13.

[Shank]

Yes, that's why Dirk will probably win it....he's on the best team...even though I put KG ahead of him.

Um.

[Kobe'smyhomie]

No, it's clear cut by now. Dirk and Nash.

Go Kobe!

[mardigan]

It will probably be Dirk, and he deserves it. Although I think if Ihad a vote, it would go to T-Mac. The more I think about it the more I think he should win it

[JamStone]

If the Lakers were able to win 50 games this season, Kobe would win the MVP. Since they aren't going to, the MVP will likely go to Dirk. I think I'd still vote for Kobe though.

[Medvedenko]

Of course your team needs to win 50 games...but with the injuries they have had, getting to the playoffs is a feat in itself. Still, Dirk will get it and all will rejoice.

[RonMexico]

if he joins the ranks of Russell, Chamberlain, and Bird, that will be one of the biggest disgraces in the NBA.

Actually, one of the biggest and most shoking disgraces would be if Dirk managed to make a last-minute free throw...

Hey-O!!

[Kobulingam]

Dirk shouldn't win it. Mavs are a great team that aren't that dependent on Dirk. Minus Dirk, Mavs can beat 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.

Minus Nash, Suns will lose to 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.

Minus Kobe... wait. Lakers aren't a great team when Kobe plays so let's stop there.


MVP should be Nash.

Runner up: Dirk

Consideration to:
Kobe
Duncan
Bosh
Lebron (backspace a few times on this one)

[Findog]

Dirk shouldn't win it. Mavs are a great team that aren't that dependent on Dirk. Minus Dirk, Mavs can beat 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.

Minus Nash, Suns will lose to 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.

Minus Kobe... wait. Lakers aren't a great team when Kobe plays so let's stop there.


MVP should be Nash.

Runner up: Dirk

Consideration to:
Kobe
Duncan
Bosh
Lebron (backspace a few times on this one)

Ha! Mavs are a 45 win team in the West without Dirk, a 50 win team in the East. This is all just masturbation anyway -- the real question is, who's going to win the title?

[resistanze]

Dirk shouldn't win it. Mavs are a great team that aren't that dependent on Dirk. Minus Dirk, Mavs can beat 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.

Minus Nash, Suns will lose to 75% of the teams in NBA in a 7 game series.


I don't see how many wins the Mavs would win w/o Dirk could be verified, it's all hypothetical. Personally I'd say they'd win about 45 games.

Regardless, I don't think that kind can be used for MVP voting. If that were the case, then Michael Jordan should've been blacklisted from winning the MVP after the Bulls won 55 games the year after he retired.

[LEONARD]

Mavs are a great team that aren't that dependent on Dirk.

:wtf :dizzy :hat :smokin :drunk

[mardigan]

Ha! Mavs are a 45 win team in the West without Dirk, a 50 win team in the East. This is all just masturbation anyway -- the real question is, who's going to win the title?
They are 3 and 0 without him this season, and another 3 and 0 when he played 17 minutes or less, so I dont know about that

[Kobulingam]

The reason Dirk is getting TOO MUCH CREDIT for the Mavs this year is because other players like Josh Howard aren't getting enough credit.

If Dirk wins MVP he better announce that he's sharing it with JHo.

[monosylab1k]

it still amazes me that people are judging a player's MVP qualifications on what happens when he ISN'T on the court rather than what he does when he IS.

[mabber]

Actually, one of the biggest and most shoking disgraces would be if Dirk managed to make a last-minute free throw...

Hey-O!!

He's made several free throws in the last minute of games just in the last month. Plenty over the course of this season. What a disgrace! :lol

[mardigan]

it still amazes me that people are judging a player's MVP qualifications on what happens when he ISN'T on the court rather than what he does when he IS.
I never said he shouldnt be the MVP, look back some posts. Im just replying to whoever said that they would be a 45 win team. They are six ond zero when he plays little or not at all. All I think that shows is how much better the rest of your team had gotten

[Kobulingam]

it still amazes me that people are judging a player's MVP qualifications on what happens when he ISN'T on the court rather than what he does when he IS.

If it's there to judge (6 game sample for Dirk is pretty good), then why not use it to see how the team plays without said player?

[monosylab1k]

If it's there to judge (6 game sample for Dirk is pretty good), then why not use it to see how the team plays without said player?

so next year Nash blows out his knee in the 5th game of the year and the Suns finish with 13 wins........that means Nash HAS GOT TO BE MVP because his team was so terrible without him....nevermind the fact that he didn't hardly play...he's obviously MVP right?

[RonMexico]

so next year Nash blows out his knee in the 5th game of the year and the Suns finish with 13 wins........that means Nash HAS GOT TO BE MVP because his team was so terrible without him....nevermind the fact that he didn't hardly play...he's obviously MVP right?

An unprecedented 4th time in a row!

[LEONARD]

If it's there to judge (6 game sample for Dirk is pretty good), then why not use it to see how the team plays without said player?

Should we include last night's game with the T-Wolves who didn't care and left KG on the bench??

[Kobulingam]

so next year Nash blows out his knee in the 5th game of the year and the Suns finish with 13 wins........that means Nash HAS GOT TO BE MVP because his team was so terrible without him....nevermind the fact that he didn't hardly play...he's obviously MVP right?

Did I say that?

A player still has to play in the majority of game in a season.

[mardigan]

Should we include last night's game with the T-Wolves who didn't care and left KG on the bench??
KG is hurt, probably done for the season

[RonMexico]

He's made several free throws in the last minute of games just in the last month. Plenty over the course of this season. What a disgrace! :lol

And see what happened? Avery benched him. Haha.

[LEONARD]

KG is hurt, probably done for the season

Ah, the box score said "coach's decision" which I thought was odd...

Regardless, last night's "win without Dirk" is a little misleading if people are including it in the group. It's such a small sampling anyway...

[monosylab1k]

Did I say that?

A player still has to play in the majority of game in a season.

so what is it then? what he does on the court of what his team does when he's not on the court?

[Kobulingam]

Since Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks are both going to finish with more than 60 wins, we shouldn't use # of wins to pick the MVP between Nash and Dirk. It would be ridiculous to pick Dirk because the Mavs have more wins than Suns (especially since Suns are going to finish #2!!! in the league).

So without using #wins, explain why Dirk is MVP based on 2007 regular season? Do the Dirk supporters think Billups should have won MVP last year? All Dirk-for-MVP supporters just got pwned.

[monosylab1k]

Since Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks are both going to finish with more than 60 wins, we shouldn't use # of wins to pick the MVP between Nash and Dirk. It would be ridiculous to pick Dirk because the Mavs have more wins than Suns (especially since Suns are going to finish #2!!! in the league).

So without using #wins, explain why Dirk is MVP based on 2007 regular season? Do the Dirk supporters think Billups should have won MVP last year? All Dirk-for-MVP supporters just got pwned.

ever watched Nash try to play defense?

[dallaskd]

Dirk, but Nash will probably win.

[LEONARD]

So without using #wins, explain why Dirk is MVP based on 2007 regular season? Do the Dirk supporters think Billups should have won MVP last year? All Dirk-for-MVP supporters just got pwned.

Comparing regular season wins between the top western conf teams and the top eastern conf teams is like apples and oranges...

[Kobulingam]

so what is it then? what he does on the court of what his team does when he's not on the court?

What do you want? What are you asking? Are you asking for ONE criterion for picking an MVP? There exists no such thing.

I am telling you that on court performance matters the most, but how the team is affected when the player is not on the court also gives an indication of how much the team depends on said player. This includes time when the player is resting on bench, or injured. If the MVP was just about picking the best player on the team with the best regular season record, then we don't need this discussion as a computer can do that for us (except for maybe one human input when choice of best player on the chosen team is close).

The performance of the Suns minus Nash in the past two seasons really helped him get those MVP awards. Do you blame the voters for using this info?

[Kobulingam]

ever watched Nash try to play defense?

Yes. Nash is to Billups as Dirk is to Duncan. What's your point? Dirk plays PF and doesn't defend the paint very well. Dirk's defense is more important to his team because of the position he plays.

Nash helps his team more than Dirk does (taking into account all factors like defense). Simple as that.

EDIT:

And who is more clutch? :p: Pwned.


EDIT2:

Nash pwned Dirk in 2 playoff intensity games between the two teams (super clutch Nash). Dirk choked like someone with a loose sphincter in those games.

[Kobulingam]

Comparing regular season wins between the top western conf teams and the top eastern conf teams is like apples and oranges...

I don't even know what you mean.

I am asking whether Billups deserved MVP last year because Detroit was pwning everybody. This year the Suns and Mavs are both 60+ win teams, so should we pick Dirk because #wins(Mavs) > #wins(Suns) ? Or is there some other factor? Explain.

[LEONARD]

I don't even know what you mean.

I am asking whether Billups deserved MVP last year because Detroit was pwning everybody. This year the Suns and Mavs are both 60+ win teams, so should we pick Dirk because #wins(Mavs) > #wins(Suns) ? Or is there some other factor? Explain.

"pwning" everybody in the east isn't the equivalent to doing it in the west...

[Kobulingam]

"pwning" everybody in the east isn't the equivalent to doing it in the west...

"People these days. Sheesh." :wakeup

[td4mvp21]

"pwning" everybody in the east isn't the equivalent to doing it in the west...

They beat the West teams too, so your point doesn't really matter.

1-1 vs. Dallas
2-0 vs. San Antonio
2-0 vs. Phoenix
1-1 vs. Lakers
2-0 vs. Clippers
2-0 vs. Memphis

10-2 vs. last year's West elite

[himat]

You know, its funny T-Mac has gotten no love this year, he's putting up numbers comparable to Dirks, but no mention of his name.

Plus his team wins when he's in the lineup and loses when he's out of the lineup.

[Shank]

Plus his team wins when he's in the lineup and loses when he's out of the lineup.

And from what I hear, that's a huge arguing point for this debate.

[Kobulingam]

And from what I hear, that's a huge arguing point for this debate.

Not huge. Small. But big enough to put Nash > Dirk since both their teams have 60+ wins so it would dumb to use wins as a tiebreaker.

[monosylab1k]

Yes. Nash is to Billups as Dirk is to Duncan. What's your point? Dirk plays PF and doesn't defend the paint very well. Dirk's defense is more important to his team because of the position he plays.

i'd like that reiterated as Tony Parker goes flying by Nash every time down the court. That somehow PG's dont matter defensively.

and even your fellow Spurs buddies agree that Dirk plays much better defense than he used to. can't say the same for Nash. he's just as awful, if not worse, than he was in Dallas.


Nash helps his team more than Dirk does (taking into account all factors like defense).

LOL taking into account defense....right...


Nash pwned Dirk in 2 playoff intensity games between the two teams (super clutch Nash). Dirk choked like someone with a loose sphincter in those games.

Nash can own Dirk in all the playoff INTENSITY games for all i care. Because last time they met up in actual PLAYOFF games, Dirk was the one doing the pwning.

"oh, but they didn't have Amare"

exactly. Dirk is MVP.

[v2freak]

i don't even care or really want Dirk to win it. just anybody but Nash....please dear God ANYBODY but Nash...if he joins the ranks of Russell, Chamberlain, and Bird, that will be one of the biggest disgraces in the NBA.

Agreed. I don't think he should win it again for the 3rd time in a row. There are so many other deserving players out there

[Findog]

They are 3 and 0 without him this season, and another 3 and 0 when he played 17 minutes or less, so I dont know about that

That's a really small sample size -- they beat Denver on the road when they were missing Carmelo, they beat Sacramento sans Kevin Martin, and Minnesota without KG.

[dirk4mvp]

Yes. Nash is to Billups as Dirk is to Duncan. What's your point? Dirk plays PF and doesn't defend the paint very well. Dirk's defense is more important to his team because of the position he plays.

Nash helps his team more than Dirk does (taking into account all factors like defense). Simple as that.

EDIT:

And who is more clutch? :p: Pwned.


EDIT2:

Nash pwned Dirk in 2 playoff intensity games between the two teams (super clutch Nash). Dirk choked like someone with a loose sphincter in those games.

Who did the pwning here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

[Texas_Ranger]

Dirk
Kobe
Duncan
James
Nash

[Findog]

Nash pwned Dirk in 2 playoff intensity games between the two teams (super clutch Nash). Dirk choked like someone with a loose sphincter in those games.

Playoff-intensity games? What the fuck is that? Did you watch Game 6 of the Conference Finals last year? Now, I know that as a Spurs fan, you might have lost all interest in the playoffs after your team was eliminated at the hands of a superior team, but it would have been instructive if you had. Do you think Dirk was clutch in Game 7 in San Antonio? Did you watch Nash in Game 6 of the Conference Finals? If ever there was a time to be clutch and step it up, how about when your team is facing elimination on their own floor? Nash sucked in that game, Dirk was awesome.

As for "playoff intensity games," if you mean those games that are worthy of Kenny and Chuck and the Pussycat Dolls screeching "Right Now," the last time the Mavs and Suns met up before March 14th, Dirk nailed a game-winning jumper with Marion in his face at the buzzer. Does that qualify as choke or clutch?

My point is not to denigrate Nash and gloss over Dirk's failings. They've both been counted on by their teams to deliver and they've both succeeded more than they've failed. It's obvious you have the attention span of a child if all you can do is point to a REGULAR SEASON game here or there to back up your case. Great players have the ball in their hands at the end of games. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they don't. Dirk isn't afraid to take the last shot. If you want to be taken seriously, you can't selectively marshall evidence or ignore inconvenient facts that undercut your case. Damages your credibility and makes me call into question your basketball acumen. Dirk has missed game-winning shots and free throws and he's made 'em too. I could give a fuck about "playoff-intensity" games in March. Dirk showed he's got big brass ones last May-June. If you wanna throw the Finals in my face, it's fair to question D-Pussy being camped out at the free throw line if it's fair to question the Mavs' intestinal fortitude.

I can hear the response now: "How about the Finals when Dirk missed that free throw?" Lemme ask you, what is Duncan's free throw percentage? How many free throws has Duncan missed in crunchtime situations? Would you call Duncan a choker? Wade missed two critical free throws in Game Six of the Finals but his team held on for the win. Guys miss free throws. It happens.

[LEONARD]

They beat the West teams too, so your point doesn't really matter.

1-1 vs. Dallas
2-0 vs. San Antonio
2-0 vs. Phoenix
1-1 vs. Lakers
2-0 vs. Clippers
2-0 vs. Memphis

10-2 vs. last year's West elite

I'm not saying that the Pistons last year weren't a great team...

but they get a bunch of games against HORRIBLE eastern teams...much more so than in the west. Winning 65 games in the west is more impressive than 65 games in the east. And that was the basis for my point (apples to orange).

Let's say that last year the Pistons won 66 games and the Suns won 64. The "best player on the team with the best record" argument shouldn't apply because the Pistons won a couple more games in the weaker conf. You could still argue that the Pistons were the best regular season team because of their record against the top teams in the league, but not by just looking at record (in my opinion).

[whottt]

Ehhh...Dirk deserves it.

He's the best player on the team with far and away the best record, and his numbers are nice and easily MVP level....and it's not like he plays with more All Stars than Nash and Duncan.


I'd say he's the no brainer choice and history is on his side as well.

[whottt]

Although, I agree with the sentiment still that Nash makes his teamates better than anyone. Forget his D...the Suns completely suck when he's on the bench.

Still...the Mavs record is so good, there's just no way you can pass Dirk over this year.

I don't think LeBron and Kobe's teams have been good enough...but there is a precedent for giving it to League Darlings even when they are on a crappy team...they are the only ones with a shot at winning it besides Dirk IMO.



Duncan def isn't winning it, although I do think he has a nice case for DPOY this year....

[mathbzh]

I still don't understand how you can compare a PG to a PF but I must be stupid :)

I vote for Dirk... But I don't think he is really better than the others.

[LEONARD]

3 of the voters released their picks publically...2 were for Nash, 1 was for Dirk. (source: The Ticket in Dallas...I don't remember the voter's names)

[DarrinS]

Who cares who the regular season MVP is. That award has been a curse for many teams.


I'd much rather have a finals MVP on my team.

[Shank]

3 of the voters released their picks publically...2 were for Nash, 1 was for Dirk. (source: The Ticket in Dallas...I don't remember the voter's names)

Source: Sports Illustrated's website.

We all know the Ticket has been worthless all week.

[mardigan]

And from what I hear, that's a huge arguing point for this debate.
Im just saying that T-Mac getting his team to win 50 plus games while Yao missed 33 and the next best player on the roster is probably Head or Battier is pretty impressive, and I would say MVP worthy

[LEONARD]

Source: Sports Illustrated's website.

We all know the Ticket has been worthless all week.

The Ticket was my source...I didn't mean they were digging up info...

and Compound week is f'n genius... :fro

[PM5K]

A team should win a minimum of fifty games for a player to be considered, not a hard and fast rule but if I used that as a rule of thumb Kobe would be out, Lebron would be in...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Dirk does what the team needs to win all the time pretty much.like the last two times against the suns?

[Findog]

like the last two times against the suns?

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.

[Kobulingam]

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.


Take Josh Howard off the Mavs team with a microfracture injury and replace him with a bench warmer from another team. Can Dirk do what Nash did with a depleted roster last year?

[Findog]

Take Josh Howard off the Mavs team with a microfracture injury and replace him with a bench warmer from another team. Can Dirk do what Nash did with a depleted roster last year?

I would hardly call Tim Thomas's performance last year "benchwarmer-esque." When he wants to, he can be a stud. Nash, Barbosa, Marion, Thomas, Bell, Diaw, James Jones going 54-28 and advancing to the conference finals doesn't count as a "depleted roster" in my book. How do you explain them needing 7 games to get past the Lakers? The Lakers had no business being in a Game 7 against Phoenix but they did it. Kobe showed what a true MVP is, taking a team on his back and nearly knocking off a much superior team. And he didn't quit until Game 7 was a lost cause, he stopped initiating when his team was down 21.

If you took Josh Howard off the Mavs and replaced him with someone with a median PER, they'd still win 50+ games. KG won the MVP the one year he was actually surrounded by talent. Dirk is getting MVP consideration surrounded by a deep and talented roster. Kobe got MVP consideration when he played alongside Shaq. In the case of KG and Kobe, those same players are currently surrounded by D-Leaguers and instead get criticized for their on-court performances, which have largely remained the same. It would seem that best player on one of the best teams is the biggest criterion for "MVP." Like I've stated elsewhere, this is just masturbation and something to talk about until the real season starts. If Dirk was playing for Atlanta right now, the Hawks would be a little better than they are now but he wouldn't be getting any "MVP" love. It's just wankery.

[Kobulingam]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys. Too bad some of them suck like crap once they leave the Nashdom. But new crap can always be brought in to be touched by King Midas.


Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?

Open your eyes.

EDIT:

No jokes about "Nash touching all these boys to make them men" please.

[Findog]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys. Too bad some of them suck like crap once they leave the Nashdom. But new crap can always be brought in to be touched by King Midas.


Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?

Open your eyes.

You honestly think Josh Howard would be throwing up 19 and 7 without Dirk drawing a double team? There's a reason Dirk is considered a matchup nightmare and one of the toughest covers in the league -- he forces you to pick your poison, cover him straight up or give somebody else open looks. You think Diaw and Bell are scrubs? Bell has worked his ass off to become a two-way player, Diaw is the rare big man that can handle and pass the ball. TT can be a very, very good player when he cares, which he did last year in Phoenix since he was playing for a contract. And are you saying that Joe Johnson has "sucked like crap" since leaving Phoenix?

As for who makes their teammates better, it's a wash. Dirk is a good help defender and a mediocre on the ball defender. Unlike Nash, he's not a total liability on one end of the court, that helps his team out. On offense, he forces opposing teams to make difficult choices and Terry, Harris and Howard all benefit as a result. Nash is terrible whether he's playing his man or helping out. He doesn't make his teammates better or do his team any favors on the defensive end. He's a wonderful distributor on the offensive end that gets his team high-percentage looks. But the Suns are a wonderful regular-season team and not much else, which I'm sure you'll agree with when the Spurs eliminate them in six games. I'm really not impressed that the Suns can hang 130 points on the Charlottes, Atlantas and Milwaukees of the league in December. I think this is instructive, disregarding tonight's game against Utah when they had nothing to play for, here is how Dallas, San Antonio and Phoenix stack up regarding their competition:

Dallas vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 16-10 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 13-3
vs Playoff teams overall: 29-13
vs Lottery Teams: 36-0 **

San Antonio vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 17-10 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 11-5
vs Playoff teams overall: 28-16
vs Lottery teams: 30-5

Phoenix vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 13-11 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 13-3
vs Playoff teams overall: 26-14
vs Lottery Teams: 33-5

* I'm including Golden State since they're currently tied with the Clippers for the 8 seed. Phoenix rolls up the wins against teams they won't see in the playoffs. Nash has historically sucked in the Conference Finals the three times he got there. I could give a fuck if he makes Amare or Marion look good against Memphis or Portland. If you want to talk about boys and men, San Antonio and Dallas are the latter and Phoenix is the former.

** Looks like Dirk and the Mavs don't take nights off, huh?

[adidas11]

One thing that needs to be noted, is that the last time a player won the MVP award and did NOT win at least a division title was back in 1988. Michael Jordan, when he averaged 35.0 pts per game AND won the Defensive Player of the Year. Every year since then, the MVP was on a team that at least won their division.

So using that criteria, we can eliminate players like Lebron James (who I still think will eventually surpass everyone in the league by a longshot), Kobe, and Tim Duncan. That leaves Nash and Dirk.

Now Dirk has just led his team to potentially one of the best records in NBA history. Phoenix has had a great year as well, but still not on the same level as Dallas. And I'm sorry, but when I look at Phoenix, I can name 2 or 3 other point guards in the league, that if you replaced Nash with one of them, Phoenix would be just as effective or even better.

So this year, its Dirk, hands down.

[Findog]

I actually hope Nash wins the damn thing again...the great ones always use perceived slights and disrespect as fuel for greatness...i.e. Hakeem over D-Rob and Michael Jordan inventing slights to motivate himself.

[Cry Havoc]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Yep. They play some damn good offensive basketball. Nash is the best distributing PG in the game. No argument at all here.


Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys.

Yep. They're scoring lots of points.



Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?


I'd like to pose a question back at you: Who do you think makes their teammates better on the defensive side of the ball? You can argue numbers and intangibles all day long -- the bottom line is that Nash is an absolute sieve on defense against a good point guard. Jordan made his teammates better on both ends of the court. His passing and playmaking gave them confidence on the O end of things, and his ability to lock down his man and make clutch steals and blocks (the latter of which is far too often forgotten) made his teammates work harder 100% of the time they were on the floor.

I'm not trying to compare Nash to Jordan here. I'm just stating that if you say a player makes his team better, you had better be prepared to defend such a blanket statement. Nash makes his teammates dominant on offense, but when the other team has the ball, especially a quick PG like Parker, Nash makes his teammates look absolutely horrible. And you would too if you had to step across the lane to shut down a penetrating point guard all day long, which frees your man up on the wing and forces the entire D to play rotation to keep up with the ball movement.

There is just no way you can tell me "Nash makes his teammates better" and mean it for an entire game. He makes them look like fools on the D end of things because they have to hold his hand to guard anyone.

Not to hate on Nash. He's amazing. He's doing stuff I haven't seen in many, many years. But I cannot discount the complete failure he has been in the playoffs, mostly because he doesn't have the lateral foot speed to stop anyone.

Nash. Loses. Games.

Or more accurately: The Suns complete abhorrence with defense loses games. Only Marion and Bell can be considered good defenders, KT might be above average. Everyone else shows nothing come playoff time when the other team has the ball.

You can't have a 3-time MVP if he can't play D. It makes no sense. When the Suns lose in 6 to the Spurs this year, I'm going to be going, "Wow, there's the 2 (or 3) time MVP getting burned again... and again... and again.... now how is he making his teammates better when Parker flashes by him, again?"

[Findog]

Yep. They play some damn good offensive basketball. Nash is the best distributing PG in the game. No argument at all here.



Yep. They're scoring lots of points.




I'd like to pose a question back at you: Who do you think makes their teammates better on the defensive side of the ball? You can argue numbers and intangibles all day long -- the bottom line is that Nash is an absolute sieve on defense against a good point guard. Jordan made his teammates better on both ends of the court. His passing and playmaking gave them confidence on the O end of things, and his ability to lock down his man and make clutch steals and blocks (the latter of which is far too often forgotten) made his teammates work harder 100% of the time they were on the floor.

I'm not trying to compare Nash to Jordan here. I'm just stating that if you say a player makes his team better, you had better be prepared to defend such a blanket statement. Nash makes his teammates dominant on offense, but when the other team has the ball, especially a quick PG like Parker, Nash makes his teammates look absolutely horrible. And you would too if you had to step across the lane to shut down a penetrating point guard all day long, which frees your man up on the wing and forces the entire D to play rotation to keep up with the ball movement.

There is just no way you can tell me "Nash makes his teammates better" and mean it for an entire game. He makes them look like fools on the D end of things because they have to hold his hand to guard anyone.

Not to hate on Nash. He's amazing. He's doing stuff I haven't seen in many, many years. But I cannot discount the complete failure he has been in the playoffs, mostly because he doesn't have the lateral foot speed to stop anyone.

Nash. Loses. Games.

Or more accurately: The Suns complete abhorrence with defense loses games. Only Marion and Bell can be considered good defenders, KT might be above average. Everyone else shows nothing come playoff time when the other team has the ball.

You can't have a 3-time MVP if he can't play D. It makes no sense. When the Suns lose in 6 to the Spurs this year, I'm going to be going, "Wow, there's the 2 (or 3) time MVP getting burned again... and again... and again.... now how is he making his teammates better when Parker flashes by him, again?"

The fact of the matter is that the Suns are 13-11 against the "Big Boys" this year, teams that would make the Western playoffs. They have to shoot 60%+ from the floor to win. Do you see them doing that 4 out of 7 times against San Antonio, HCA or not? I don't.

[Kobulingam]

News flash: Dirk is not a good defender and he plays a position for which defense is very important for the team.

Listen, Bosh is a better defender than Dirk, better rebounder, and similar offensive output. And Bosh has a low post game, and is more clutch than Dirk (almost perfect freethrow shooter in clutch). So if Raptors won 60 games, would you pick Bosh?

Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.

Honestly, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He should be MVP hands down. But since we're only comparing Dirk and Nash, stop bringing up Dirk's amazing defense. He plays a position which is pivotal to defense, but he isn't that good at it. The SYSTEM avery has in place gets credit for the defense.

Hand the MVP to Avery if you want, but not Dirk.

[Cry Havoc]

The fact of the matter is that the Suns are 13-11 against the "Big Boys" this year, teams that would make the Western playoffs. They have to shoot 60%+ from the floor to win. Do you see them doing that 4 out of 7 times against San Antonio, HCA or not? I don't.

See, that is less of a matter to me than the fact that the Suns have been absolutely decimated in b2b WCF. First by the Spurs and then by the Mavs. Neither series was close, neither was that entertaining from an objective point of view. Though I suppose that was only because I knew Phoenix didn't have a chance in hell, just like this year. Surrendering 45 points in a quarter says a lot about who you are as a team.


Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.

That's not the point. The point is that Dirk doesn't make his entire team weaker on the D end of things.

If you were to rate them by numbers, Dirk is a 6 on defense, I think. Nash is a 2, and a .5 against fast PGs who can penetrate.

[Findog]

News flash: Dirk is not a good defender and he plays a position for which defense is very important for the team.

Well, I watch the games, so you're wrong. He's slightly below average on the ball, and he's slightly above average help-wise. He rebounds well for his position and the presence of Diop/Dampier covers whatever weaknesses he does have.


Listen, Bosh is a better defender than Dirk, better rebounder, and similar offensive output. And Bosh has a low post game, and is more clutch than Dirk (almost perfect freethrow shooter in clutch). So if Raptors won 60 games, would you pick Bosh?

Raptors can't even win 50 in the Least, so let's stop slurping Bosh's dick, okay? Dirk shoots 90% from the line, you're going to have to do better than one regular season or Finals game to say he's not clutch at the line. And how many playoff series has Bosh won with his clutch freethrow shooting? Duncan shoots 50% from the line, how many crunchtime FTs has he missed? D-Wade missed two critical ones that gave the Mavs another shot to tie the game in Game 6, you wanna claim D-Wade isn't clutch? He shoots 90% from the line, not 100%.

Trade Dirk for Bosh straight up and the Mavs are not quite as good. Dirk's versatility on the offensive end is what makes the Mavs so dangerous. He shoots over tall guys and backs down smaller guys in the post. He's a 7-footer that can play like a guard, and he has the size and strength to go down on the low blocks if that's what his team needs. He is pretty much unguardable when he camps out on the high post. Bosh is an AllStar and a franchise stud in the making, but he's a conventional cover on the low blocks. Adjusted for age and salary, there's not a General Manager or Coach in the League that would take Bosh over Dirk if he had to win a game or playoff series tomorrow.


Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.


In the context of comparing Nash to Dirk, I said Dirk was not a liability on defense, unlike Nash. I never said Dirk was the second coming of Bill Russell.


Honestly, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He should be MVP hands down.

Him or Kobe.


But since we're only comparing Dirk and Nash, stop bringing up Dirk's amazing defense.

Considering I never described Dirk's defense as "amazing," how about you stop responding to strawman arguments?


He plays a position which is pivotal to defense, but he isn't that good at it. The SYSTEM avery has in place gets credit for the defense.

What's that "system"? The Mavs rebound well, rotate well, and are aggressive on the defensive end. Dirk's not a liability on the defensive end, pure and simple. That's not the same thing as equating him with Ben Wallace when it comes to defensive prowess.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.just like our 3 rings is old news. pick you battles mav "fans". no "nappy headed" arguments here to squirm out of.

[Findog]

just like our 3 rings is old news. pick you battles mav "fans". no "nappy headed" arguments here to squirm out of.


99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

[Kobulingam]

99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

You're funny. Those three rings from the Duncan era, and guess what, Duncan is gonna drop a load on you guys this playoffs.

Duncan > Dirk

Taking age into account, Bosh (just turned 23) > Dirk (peak years)

PF Defense rankings Duncan > ...> KG>... > Bosh > ... >
Dirk > Brand > . > Mamdu Enjai

[Cry Havoc]

99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

They are completely relevant, particularly 03 and 05. Our team has a ton of championship experience and is used to playing under pressure deep into the playoffs against the best teams in the league.

But that's not what this thread is about. Back on topic. Had I my druthers, I would have the MVP race like this:

1. Dirk, by the slightest of margins
2. Duncan, only because he didn't play as well 1st half
3. Nash, has to be here but a distant 3rd
4. James, he's averaging 28, 7 and 6 people. Stop expecting a 22 year old to avg a trip-doub
5. Kobe, hate putting him here as he tends to make his teammates worse, but the Lakers would be awful without him

Others receiving votes (in order): McGrady, KG, Bosh, Arenas, Anthony, Williams (Utah)

[jochhejaam]

Nowitzki

[mavs>spurs2]

This is Dirk's year. No way Nash wins it again, and the L.A. Kobe's are struggling to even make the playoffs.

[Findog]

They are completely relevant, particularly 03 and 05. Our team has a ton of championship experience and is used to playing under pressure deep into the playoffs against the best teams in the league.



No, they're not relevant, not in a discussion of whether or not Dirk is clutch. The other poster used the last two regular season games against the Suns as evidence Dirk wasn't clutch. I refuted that by pointing to the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns as evidence Dirk is clutch when it matters most. Since he didn't have a comeback for that, the best he could do was some irrelevant gibberish about "We have three rings, you guys have none." The Spurs' three titles have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[Findog]

You're funny. Those three rings from the Duncan era, and guess what, Duncan is gonna drop a load on you guys this playoffs.

Duncan > Dirk

Taking age into account, Bosh (just turned 23) > Dirk (peak years)

PF Defense rankings Duncan > ...> KG>... > Bosh > ... >
Dirk > Brand > . > Mamdu Enjai

You mean that 32 and 13 Duncan dropped on us last year? Wasn't good enough. We pitch and you catch in this relationship now.

Taking age and salary into account, some GMs would rather have Bosh than Dirk. But you'd be the only person in the League that would take Bosh over Dirk to go to war TOMORROW.

[Kobulingam]

No. I'd take Dirk over Bosh today. I'd take Duncan over Dirk today. But considering age I'd take Bosh first.


Here are the votes that I have seen announced already (I don't know why NBA allows ppl you publicize their votes):

Mike Stein (ESPN): Dirk
Billl Walton(ESPN): Nash
Randy Hill (Fox) : Nash.
Marty Burns (CNNSi): Nash.
Jack McAllum (CNNSi): Nash .
Ian Thompsen (CNNSi): Dirk.
Doug Smith (Toronto Star): Nash




Anyone else know of votes please post them here.

[Infamous]

Dirk isn't MVP, he has so much help. Josh Howard an all-star, JT a potential All-star, Dampier a great shot blocker and a dirty work player, Diop another dirty work player, Harris the lightning-quick guard, Stackhouse one of the best six men in the league, I can go on and on. And everytime I check the Mavs always win almost everytime Dirk has a bad game. Whenever Dirk doesn't play, it's not like this team goes to shit, all his other help steps up and has big games. Dirk doesn't even average a double double because he depends on his dirty work players to get all the boards. I'd rather see Nash get the MVP, although I'm going to vomit at the site of him hoisting up that trophy a third straight time. You can say Nash has as much help as Dirk does, but the truth is when Nash doesn't play, the offense for the Suns is complete shit. 18 points and 11 assists, around 50 double doubles..MVP-like numbers.

[whottt]

Dirk isn't MVP, he has so much help. Josh Howard an all-star, JT a potential All-star, Dampier a great shot blocker and a dirty work player, Diop another dirty work player, Harris the lightning-quick guard, Stackhouse one of the best six men in the league, I can go on and on. And everytime I check the Mavs always win almost everytime Dirk has a bad game. Whenever Dirk doesn't play, it's not like this team goes to shit, all his other help steps up and has big games. Dirk doesn't even average a double double because he depends on his dirty work players to get all the boards. I'd rather see Nash get the MVP, although I'm going to vomit at the site of him hoisting up that trophy a third straight time. You can say Nash has as much help as Dirk does, but the truth is when Nash doesn't play, the offense for the Suns is complete shit. 18 points and 11 assists, around 50 double doubles..MVP-like numbers.


Yeah well...Kobe doesn't have a winning record...Pretty sure the Lakers could accomplish that without him.

[Infamous]

Yeah well...Kobe doesn't have a winning record...Pretty sure the Lakers could accomplish that without him.

Where did I say anything about Kobe? I didn't mention Kobe for a reason, because there's no way he's going to get the MVP because the Lakers are barely even going to make the playoffs. Hell, there's a chance they won't make it. And yea..the Lakers are a better team without Kobe.. :rolleyes

[whottt]

Where did I say anything about Kobe? I didn't mention Kobe for a reason, because there's no way he's going to get the MVP because the Lakers are barely even going to make the playoffs. Hell, there's a chance they won't make it. And yea..the Lakers are a better team without Kobe.. :rolleyes


Well then you seem to be under the misconception that Dirk plays with more All Stars than Nash and Duncan...

Because Dirk is clearly the choice of out he, Nash and Duncan...which leaves only LeBron...and there's not a LakerFan alive that wants to see LeBron get an MVP before Kobe...

So you tell me, who is the MVP?

[whottt]

And I didn't say the Lakers were better without Kobe...only that they aren't very good, even with him....so how valuable can he be, to this team?

[Infamous]

Kobe is a good player, but I don't see him making his teammates better. People keep blaming his teammates, but I don't see Kobe (or KG) making teammates better.

When Lakers had Shaq, Shaq made a lot of scrubs look good (Fischer should give half his ginormous contract to Shaq as a thank you).

Well when the Lakers were pretty healthy last season, they had a 3-1 lead against the Suns. Had Odom not missed the crucial rebound in Game 6, which lead to Tim Thomas forcing OT and winning game 6, then Game 7. Kobe WAS making his team better in that series. Just that theres so many injuries and the triangle offense is nowhere to be found, Kobe just has to carry the scoring load.

Also, when the Lakers were pretty healthy, they beat the Spurs twice this season. ;)

[RonMexico]

Where are those Lakers fans that ripped on me and the Suns? Lakeshow and some other faggot... oh well, good to see the Suns only dropped one game this season to those tools and I really hope Phil Jackson's HOF acceptance is puncuated with his team failing to make the Playoffs.

[LakeShow]

How can you be MVP of the League when some question if you're the Mvp of your own team? :smokin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=espnmag/marion

Marion just wants to be noticed. His invisibility is never more evident than in the Suns' 129-127 double-OT epic with the Mavericks on March 14. With eight ticks in regulation, Steve Nash launches a potential game-tying three from the top of the key that caroms long and appears headed into the hands of Dallas' Greg Buckner. In an instant, the man they call The Matrix materializes to snag the ball and kick it back to the two-time MVP, who promptly drills a three from the elbow. The announcers roar that Nash has just gotten a leg up on Dirk Nowitzki in this season's MVP race. Not a mention is made of Marion's game-saving work.

Moments like that have Marion wondering, Where is the love? The résumé certainly demands it: 18.6 ppg and four All-Star Games in eight seasons. And this season, Marion is the only guy in the top 20 in rebounds (10.0), field goal percentage (52.5), steals (2.0), blocks (1.6), double-doubles (35) and minutes (37.9). "Steve is the MVP of the league," says Marion, "but I've had people tell me I am the MVP of the team." Warriors coach Don Nelson might be one of them. Nellie says Marion is "as important as anyone they've got."

:smokin

Quote from that same article, Marion takes a table in the middle of the restaurant, near a wall-mounted TV that is tuned to an ESPNEWS feature on Kobe's recent scoring tear. Marion would pay to see Kobe, but not many others. "I don't watch a lot of basketball," he says. "I find it boring. You gotta understand, I play for the Suns. Everything else doesn't match up."

[Cry Havoc]

"I find it boring. You gotta understand, I play for the Suns. Everything else doesn't match up." [/I]

Yeah, when you play to the middle part of May, you probably are pretty "bored" of the sport by then. :donkey

[Nashfan]

Yeah, when you play to the middle part of May, you probably are pretty "bored" of the sport by then. :donkey


Much better than what your team did last year, right?? :donkey