Raja Bell better defender than Bowen?

[Voice of Truth]

After watching the Suns-Lakers game I have concluded then Raja Bell is definately a better defender all-around than Bowen (defense and offense).

Bell really frustrates Kobe (and Manu for that matter).

Bowen is overrated and old...and that my friends is the raw truth.

Bell is way better than Bowen.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllll

[Voice of Truth]

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllll


Hey at least he can defend Kobe better than Bowen...

[baseline bum]

Rajo Bell is a better defender on offense you say?

[Voice of Truth]

Rajo Bell is a better defender on offense you say?

Bell is better on defense and is better on offense than Bowen...

[Kobulingam]

Bell is better on defense and is better on offense than Bowen...

Maybe. Show us some stats.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Camby should win DPOY anyway :smokin

Here are Camby's last 7 games.

Apr 3 - 6 blocks
Apr 4 - 4 blocks
Apr 6 - 3 blocks
Apr 7 - 5 blocks
Apr 9 - 7 blocks
Apr 11 - 7 blocks
Tonight - 9 blocks

[cornbread]

Here are Camby's last 7 games.

Apr 3 - 6 blocks
Apr 4 - 4 blocks
Apr 6 - 3 blocks
Apr 7 - 5 blocks
Apr 9 - 7 blocks
Apr 11 - 7 blocks
Tonight - 9 blocks
Damn. Those are some impressive numbers.

[Voice of Truth]

Maybe. Show us some stats.

OK!


BELL:



Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 PHX 74 74 37.5 .434 .411 .775 0.6 2.6 3.2 2.5 0.6 0.3 1.09 2.90 14.6
Career 452 233 25.7 .438 .411 .770 0.6 2.0 2.6 1.6 0.7 0.1 1.00 2.60 9.8



BOWEN:



Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 SAS 78 78 30.7 .407 .382 .589 0.3 2.5 2.8 1.5 0.8 0.3 0.82 2.20 6.4
Career 708 549 28.3 .408 .388 .570 0.6 2.3 2.9 1.3 0.9 0.4 0.81 2.30 6.5

[Voice of Truth]

Raja Bell:

2006-07 Statistics
PPG 14.6
RPG 3.20
APG 2.5
EFF + 12.91


Bruce Bowen:

2006-07 Statistics
PPG 6.4
RPG 2.80
APG 1.5
EFF + 7.08

[Kori Ellis]

Why are you showing us offensive statistics to prove Bell is a better defender? :wtf

[Voice of Truth]

Why are you showing us offensive statistics to prove Bell is a better defender? :wtf

You just saw the game right?

Do you have those numbers?

[gospursgooo]

No, I didn't see the game. What happened?

[Kobulingam]

You just saw the game right?

Do you have those numbers?

So Bell was a better defender than Bowen in that game - is that what you're saying?

How many people agree with him? I'm not sure if I agree.

[Voice of Truth]

DEFENSIVE STATS (2005-2006)


Name G Min EFF AV VI PPFGA PPR RbRate

Bruce Bowen 82 2751 9.39 7.0 3.6 1.080 0.59 6.9


Name G Min EFF AV VI PPFGA PPR RbRate

Raja Bell 79 2957 13.86 9.1 5.0 1.169 1.61 4.7

[Kori Ellis]

You just saw the game right?

Do you have those numbers?

Tonight's game?

Yeah I saw that Kobe sucked.

Bell is a good defender. I'm not denying that. I'm just wondering why you are spouting offensive statistics to try to substantiate your claim.

Show us defensive stats for the season for each of them, like opponents points per 100 possessions when they are on the floor or something else comparable.

[sabar]

This one game, Beno scored 25 points.
I've concluded that Beno > Nash.

[phyzik]

When Raja bell's name starts coming up in debates about why the DPOY award needs to be changed, ala Bruce Bowen, then come talk your smack... no one, NO ONE, in the current NBA is a better all-around defender than Bruce Bowen. Stats mean jack when it comes to defense, you CAN NOT measure it with stats. Sure blocks, steals and turnovers are a part of it, but that is no where NEAR the whole thing when it comes to defense, and Bruce has all of that "extra" stuff in spades.

There is a reason why he is always talked about in the DPOY discussion even though his "stats" dont nearly match the opposition.

I dare you to pull up the stats when Bruce is facing the top scorer of one team VS Raja, or anyone else for that matter, as far as "holding" them below their average.... Im willing to bet the stats are staggeringly in Bruce's favor.

[Voice of Truth]

Just look at what the other "star" player averages on Bowen.

[lefty]

Hey at least he can defend Kobe better than Bowen...

Do u mean by slamming him on the floor ? that sequence proved that Kobe's got into Raja's skin, which doesn't happen with Bowen

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Nobody guards me better than Bruce Bowen.


- Kobe Bryant



end of thread.

[Kori Ellis]

Here's one stat indicator that might be worth looking at. Not a tell all, but an indicator.

Spurs Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bowen on the court - 97.0
Bowen off the court - 107.0

Suns Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bell on the court - 106.4
Bell off the court - 109.4

Hmm.. which player improves their team's D more?

[Voice of Truth]

Nobody guards me better than Bruce Bowen.


- Kobe Bryant



end of thread.

Sure scoring 40+ points on Bowen is guarding him better than anyone else?



Kobe is just tryng to be nice...

[Voice of Truth]

Here's one stat indicator that might be worth looking at. Not a tell all, but an indicator.

Spurs Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bowen on the court - 97.0
Bowen off the court - 107.0

Suns Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bell on the court - 106.4
Bell off the court - 109.4

Hmm.. which player improves their team's D more?

Yeah but you are not talking One-on-One defense...


You are talking about team defense...

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah but you are not talking One-on-One defense...


You are talking about team defense...

I'm talking about Bowen's effect on the team defense compared to Raja's effect on the team defense.

Meanwhile, you are spouting some offensive statistics and jacking off to Kobe sucking tonight.

I wish every time you got a new screen name you'd change your M.O. instead of trolling the same way every time.

[Voice of Truth]

:wtf
I'm talking about Bowen's effect on the team defense compared to Raja's effect on the team defense.

Meanwhile, you are spouting some offensive statistics and jacking off to Kobe sucking tonight.

I wish every time you got a new screen name you'd change your M.O. instead of trolling the same way every time.

[J.T.]

TWO RINGS NO RINGS. DEFEND THAT.

Brought to you by SpursDynasty.

[Voice of Truth]

The rings card again???

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The rings card again???


kobe shot 55% against raja last time they played in LAL and i believe had 34 points


unless you meant raja defended kobe better tonight than bowen did, in which case i agree with you completely

Bowen was literally nowhere to be found on the defensive end when kobe took the floor today

[gilmor]

The sad thing is that Raja Bell once used to play for the Spurs

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Here's one stat indicator that might be worth looking at. Not a tell all, but an indicator.

Spurs Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bowen on the court - 97.0
Bowen off the court - 107.0

Suns Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bell on the court - 106.4
Bell off the court - 109.4

Hmm.. which player improves their team's D more?
Raja Bell is a poor man's Bowen.

[wildbill2u]

Bell is definitely quicker in my opinion and that means a lot after the defensive rules changes.

Bowen used a lot of holding, bumping and handchecking when more of that stuff was allowed. I don't know if he's lost a little bit of his speed with age--he probably has--but Bell's speed probably helps him with the new rules.

Is Bell a better all around player now? Sure. I'd trade Bowen for him in an instant, but Phoenix wouldn't do the trade. Does anyone think they'd trade Bell for Bowen straight up?

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I still think Bowen is the better defender, the smarter one and more composed one too (clotheslining Kobe)

When watching games, I think the Bells, Snows all aspire to get to Bowen level, sure Bell is more spry and athletic, but Bowen still makes Pop's coaching look that much more genius. Switch him on any scoring threat and it's like magic. Bell's defense on Kobe is overrated, especiallly on last night's game. Not taking anything away from Bell, but they doubled Kobe a bunch of times. Bowen is ordered by Coach Pop and the team to stay man to man, so we don't have to throw another guy at the Kobes, Tmacs, etc.

so definitely, Bowen shouldn't be ruled out just because Bell's become a better defender over the years.

Also, Bell's defense on shutting down Manu?? Manu also had traps set for him, just like they did to Kobe last night.

[SequSpur]

LMAO....

The Suns don't even have a Defensive Philosophy... I know Bowen is not that good, but Raja Bell blows.

[romain.star]

anyway.. Camby will get the award... end of the discussion

[1Parker1]

Even I think Bruce (or at the very least Duncan) deserves the award, with the recent surge of the Nuggets and Camby's "stats" in rebounding and blocked shots, award voters will get impressed with Camby and give the award to him. Which is a joke, because a great defensive player makes the team as a whole a better defensive team...and as Kori's stats show, Bowen clearly does that.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Tim Duncan should get the DPOY for Bowen's sake.

[Doug Collins]

Wow. Camby is actually going to play 70+ games this year. They should give him a certificate or something just for doing that. It'll be only the second time in his 11 year career he's done it.

Getting a ton of blocks on a team that doesn't play any defense to me isn't DPOY quality. He's still a great shot blocker though.

[Phenomanul]

anyway.. Camby will get the award... end of the discussion


Didn't Camby miss like 20+ games????

[T Park]

It worked for Mutombo when he played :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Didn't Camby miss like 20+ games????
10.

[Phenomanul]

10.


I just can't envision someone on a team that plays no defense winning the DPOY award....

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah but you are not talking One-on-One defense...


You are talking about team defense...

You are a freaking idiot.


Kori just provided a stat which completely derails your thread and you act like you don't understand. Beautiful.


I'd like someone to do their homework and check to see what the players Bowen defends avgs. in FG% for a season. THAT would be a great defensive stat.

[Kori Ellis]

...

I'd like someone to do their homework and check to see what the players Bowen defends avgs. in FG% for a season. THAT would be a great defensive stat.


I wish they had it but it's too hard to come up with that stat. Because a player could go 0-8 with Bowen on him and in the same game go 8-8 with Bowen off the floor (or when Bowen switches off, etc). But in the box score, it would be 8-16 and look like he shot 50% against Bowen.

So the only way to know for sure is to sit and watch all the game tapes and count the makes and misses when Bowen is actually guarding the player.

Rick Carlisle had his staff do this a few years ago for Ron Artest when they were campaigning for Artest to win DPOY. Around the league, they made fun of Indy to sit around and go to all the trouble of all that and then campaign with flyers and such to the media people (voters) around the league.

Anyway, the only way to really know what Bowen brings is to watch Spurs games. Many nights this year, Bowen has owned his opponent and then the guy has gone off for 10+ when Bowen is resting. And then the forum fills up with people saying Bowen didn't do his job :rolleyes

Those people are just box score watchers :lol

[Cry Havoc]

I wish they had it but it's too hard to come up with that stat. Because a player could go 0-8 with Bowen on him and in the same game go 8-8 with Bowen off the floor (or when Bowen switches off, etc). But in the box score, it would be 8-16 and look like he shot 50% against Bowen.


Typically, I doubt a player would experience that big of a swing (of course Bowen might not hold him to 0-8 either).

Still, it wouldn't be that hard. If Bowen is on the floor, the stats are kept for him. Otherwise, whoever else is on the floor gets them. I dunno. Maybe we should hire an MLB analyst or two... they're used to tracking weird stats like, "Carlos Zambrano's record and ERA on Tuesdays in May when the weather is cloudy, over 60 degrees and he takes a dump less than 2 hours before the game."

[mavs>spurs2]

Bowen and Bell are both good defenders. Bowen was a great defender when he was younger, but at this point i'd say they are about even. Neither one deserves DPOY, although Bowen deserved to win one a couple years back.

[Borosai]

James White!

Ahh shit, wrong thread... :bike:

[Budkin]

Voice of Troll?

[Kori Ellis]

Typically, I doubt a player would experience that big of a swing (of course Bowen might not hold him to 0-8 either).



I know.

It was an example to explain what I meant.

But there were definitely games this year where a player was shooting sub 30% with Bowen in the game, and didn't miss when Bowen went out.

That's my point, you can't tell unless you have someone sitting logging it. And even then, it's subjective because of switches, double teams, etc. It's not a stat that is going to ever really exist.

[nkdlunch]

Better offensive player yes.

better defender NO.

[wildbill2u]

"Anyway, the only way to really know what Bowen brings is to watch Spurs games. Many nights this year, Bowen has owned his opponent and then the guy has gone off for 10+ when Bowen is resting. And then the forum fills up with people saying Bowen didn't do his job. Those people are just box score watchers" Kori Ellis

Interesting. I've wondered about how you watch the game when you put up that tagline about "Kapono had 11 rebounds...yes, Kapono" or something like that. It was an unusual enough stat that you made a special note of it while apparently not noting the reason or the implications.

Since I don't live in SA anymore and the Spurs aren't on national TV that often, I was watching that game very closely and especially the play of Bruce because there had been some back and forth about his play in another thread.

The fact is that when the Spurs were in their half court offense, Kapono played way off Bruce during the whole game, spending most of his time near the paint and helping out to prevent TP and Manu from driving as well as working against our center/forward for rebounding position.

In effect, the Heat was playing four men, man-to-man, with Kapono playing a zone near the lane with at least 12-15 feet between him and Bowen. Meanwhile, Bruce remained camped out 23 feet from the basket waiting for an attempt to miss a three.

It was obviously a coaching strategy by Miami: Take away the Spurs offense and let Bowen beat us with threes if he can. I think Bowen may have scored 6 points for the night. Since Kapono wound up with 11 rebounds and the lane was clogged for our drivers, the strategy worked beautifully and neither Bowen or Pop made any adjustment.

Even on offense, a player's decisions about how to play an opponent and when to adjust have defensive implications. Every defensive rebound by an opponent means another offensive opportunity for the opponent and one less for the Spurs. How many points came off of those unexpected 11 'gift' rebounds to Kapono? Could Bruce have changed that by more movement or even a futile effort to go battle Kapono near the basket for some of those rebounds.

Not that Bruce has the build to get in an battle with the giants for offensive rebounds, but he also doesn't have the short jumper to pull anyone away from the lane if his threes aren't going.

I call it the Kapono Konundrum. What do the Spurs do if the other team says we'll let Bowen beat us with 3s--if he can? Because we'll take the rest of their offense away and get more rebounds by playing five on four while Bowen takes himself out of the game by sitting on his ass in the corner.

Bruce is a great defender, but a role player. There are strategies that confound a role player when an all around game is needed.

[T Park]

Is this the same Raja Bell that was getting beat to spots on the floor by Michael Finley a week or so ago?

Uh yeah ok...

[Kori Ellis]

Interesting. I've wondered about how you watch the game when you put up that tagline about "Kapono had 11 rebounds...yes, Kapono" or something like that. It was an unusual enough stat that you made a special note of it while apparently not noting the reason or the implications...

Every defensive rebound by an opponent means another offensive opportunity for the opponent and one less for the Spurs. How many points came off of those unexpected 11 'gift' rebounds to Kapono? Could Bruce have changed that by more movement or even a futile effort to go battle Kapono near the basket for some of those rebounds.

...

I think I noted several times after that game about Bowen's lack of rebounding (and the other problems on the glass). But I also noted, and Pop re-iterated it on the Pop show recently, that by design Bowen (and the rest of the Spurs small players) are not supposed to go to the offensive glass at all. The only Spurs players that are instructed to hit the O boards are the bigs.

The smalls are supposed to instantly get back in transition. Pop says that he (and the coaching staff) are fully aware that the ramifications are that the Spurs get less offensive rebounds but they think that their stellar transition defense makes up for it.

[T Park]

I call it the Kapono Konundrum. What do the Spurs do if the other team says we'll let Bowen beat us with 3s--if he can? Because we'll take the rest of their offense away and get more rebounds by playing five on four while Bowen takes himself out of the game by sitting on his ass in the corner.

Bruce is a great defender, but a role player. There are strategies that confound a role player when an all around game is needed.

seeing as he improves as a shooter in the playoffs, i think the Spurs are gonna be ok, and if the Nuggets try that formation on D, then they will get burnt.

[SpursDynasty]

Difference: Bell will never see a Finals. And he's jealous of Kobe too which is a laugh.

[Bruno]

Here's one stat indicator that might be worth looking at. Not a tell all, but an indicator.

Spurs Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bowen on the court - 97.0
Bowen off the court - 107.0

Suns Defense: Opponents Points per 100 Possessions

Bell on the court - 106.4
Bell off the court - 109.4

Hmm.. which player improves their team's D more?

And for the 05-06 year :
Opponents Points per 100 Possessions :

Bowen on the court - 101.3
Bowen off the court - 98.6

Barry on the court - 97.9
Barry off the court - 101.7

[timvp]

And for the 05-06 year :
Opponents Points per 100 Possessions :

Bowen on the court - 101.3
Bowen off the court - 98.6

Barry on the court - 97.9
Barry off the court - 101.7

Last year, Pop used Bowen differently. If the other team's main scorer was out, Bowen was out. No questions asked.

This year, Bowen comes in and out depending on a more set basis. His numbers are no longer skewed because of always being on the court with the other team's best player and sitting when they are on the bench.

[FromWayDowntown]

Difference: Bell will never see a Finals. And he's jealous of Kobe too which is a laugh.

Fact: Bell has already played in the Finals (2001), averaging almost 16 mpg for the Sixers in that series. Try again.

[T Park]

hopefully, if the Spurs play Dallas he will get to focus on just Josh Howard and once in a while, Dirk.

Not Dirk 50% and Howard 50%.

[T Park]

Yeah played quite well in those finals.

Got a decent contract with Dallas the next two years. THen Utah really upped him, then Phoenix after 05 made him the "ginobili stopper" :lol

[Kori Ellis]

hopefully, if the Spurs play Dallas he will get to focus on just Josh Howard and once in a while, Dirk.

Not Dirk 50% and Howard 50%.

Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who. :lol

But I'm sure Bowen will get shifted a lot of the Spurs play the Mavs - JHo, Dirk, Terry, Stack.

[wildbill2u]

I think I noted several times after that game about Bowen's lack of rebounding (and the other problems on the glass). But I also noted, and Pop re-iterated it on the Pop show recently, that by design Bowen (and the rest of the Spurs small players) are not supposed to go to the offensive glass at all. The only Spurs players that are instructed to hit the O boards are the bigs.

The smalls are supposed to instantly get back in transition. Pop says that he (and the coaching staff) are fully aware that the ramifications are that the Spurs get less offensive rebounds but they think that their stellar transition defense makes up for it.
I'm not quite sure that a coaching decision for Bowen et al not to worry about the offensive boards will work against quality well-coached teams if they think Bowen's offense is our weakness.

Good coaches and good teams spot weaknesses and exploit them. That is an offensive strategy. We use Bruce to attack the other teams strengths--eg. their best offensive small. That is a defensive strategy. Does a good offensive strategy beat a good defensive strategy> that is the question that will be answered in the playoffs.

Meanwhile, our glaring weakness most of this year has been Bowen's 'normal' low point production along with his other low stats. It doesn't matter if he shoots 3s 100%, if he only scores 6ppg.

The original theme of this thread was Bell v. Bowen, not Bowen by himself nor Bowen vs. Kobe, et al. It's somewhat difficult to compare because Bell is a tad shorter and plays a different position although the both guard the best small on the other team.

I repeat: Because of his age, skills, and all around play on both offense and defense, I'd trade Bowen for Bell even up in a heartbeat. I'd also throw in some 'boot' in the form of other players if they'd take any of our scrubs.

Of course, then we'd have to move Manu to SF or something to make the adjustment with Bell at SG. And that might not be too bad come to think of it in a small ball line up of Bell, TP, Manu, TD and either Finley/Barry with the other one and Bonner/Horry/Elson/Oberto/Vaughn/White/Ely in reserve.

[T Park]

Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who

Well, it would be IDEAL, if Elson could do it, but the dudes a hack machine, and one Dirk pumpfake Im afraid he'll go for.

But shoot, we thought hed stink vs Detroit and he played them fantastic.

Dudes the epitome of an enigma.

Call me crazy, but Bonner, when focused, plays decent defense against a big such as Dirk.

Will Pop try it? More than likely not for some reason, but Bonner looked good I thought against Portland defending their long forwards, and I don't think hed embarass himself vs Irk.

Also Oberto is DECENT in small doses.

Horry, if in playoff mode, IMO, guards him the best.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not quite sure that a coaching decision for Bowen et al not to worry about the offensive boards will work against quality well-coached teams if they think Bowen's offense is our weakness.

I'm not sure, but Pop seems to think transition D is much more important than O boards.

[T Park]

It is against a team like Phoenix or Dallas thats for sure.

[timvp]

I'm not quite sure that a coaching decision for Bowen et al not to worry about the offensive boards will work against quality well-coached teams if they think Bowen's offense is our weakness.

I don't understand what you are getting out. First of all, the Spurs not going after offensive boards has won them three championships. It can't be argued whether it's an effective tactic, because it has proven to be so.

And well-coached team's know that Bowen's offense isn't the Spurs' weakness. The Spurs have never lost a series because teams have dared Bowen to beat them. Because the teams that have tried that strategy against the Spurs have all lost.

The way to beat the Spurs is to not leave Bowen open. Phil Jackson and AJ know this. Bowen isn't one to choke, especially in the playoffs. You don't keep a man on him at all-times, the Spurs will find him open and they'll win.

Sure, Bowen isn't going to win you anything taking the ball off the dribble. But those who say that the Spurs play 4-on-5 on offense or whatever don't really have a clue on how or why the Spurs lose in the playoffs.

In games five and six last year against the Mavs, Bowen had one field goal attempt in 69 minutes. It wasn't because the Spurs never passed it to him, it was because AJ knows that Bowen isn't someone you dare to beat you.

To beat the Spurs, you want TP and Manu shooting jumpers. You want to throw a bunch of double teams at Tim. You want to see if Finley or Barry will shrivel up under pressure. You try to expose the bench and make the Spurs go small. You don't leave Bowen open in the corner.


Meanwhile, our glaring weakness most of this year has been Bowen's 'normal' low point production along with his other low stats. It doesn't matter if he shoots 3s 100%, if he only scores 6ppg.

:lol

The Spurs glaring weakness has been Bowen's offense? He's right around his scoring output when the Spurs have won their two championships with him. Bowen's scoring (or lack of scoring) doesn't even crack the top 20 weaknesses for the Spurs.

Spurs fans don't understand the concept of a fifth option. The Spurs have three premiere scorers. Manu, Tim and Tony are all in the top 25 in the league in points per minute. Then after that, you have guys like Finley and Barry who put up a fair amount of shots.

As a team, the Spurs are third in the league in points per possession, behind only the Suns and the Mavs. How much more offensively potent do Spurs fans want the team to be?

It's not as if Bowen averaging six points is holding the team back. If he averaged more, it'd just be less shots for someone else. It's not like if Bowen was replaced by a wing who averaged 15 points per game that the Spurs would become some offensive Phoenix Suns style juggernaut. All it means is that the shots would be redistributed.

And really, being third in the league in points per possession pretty much categorizes the Spurs as an offensive juggernaut. They score more per possession than teams like the Warriors and Nuggets. I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure this is the most potent Spurs offensive unit in the Tim Duncan era.

Spurs fans amaze me with their ability to focus on meaningless stats that don't begin to tell the whole picture. Instead of looking at Bowen's points per game, look at how the team averages more points per possession when he's on the floor. Instead of whining about a lack of steal or blocks, look at how the Spurs average 10 less points given up per 100 possessions with Bowen on the court (or how the Spurs give up only 85 points per 48 minutes that Bowen is on the court). Instead of whining about how Bowen doesn't rebound, look at how the Spurs are a better rebounding team with Bowen on the court.

Last I looked, Bowen was second in the NBA in +/-. Yet Spurs fans would vote him off the team if they could.

Like I've said before, people won't realize how much Bowen means to what the Spurs have done the last half decade until he's gone.

[Pugglekicker_21]

Seeing as I staind myself a Bowen hater, I wont say much.

But I would rather have him than Bell.

[Infamous]

They're both great defenders, but I think the best man on man defender in the NBA is Shane Battier. He REALLY gives Kobe a hard time, and gives every other offensive threat player a hard time. Last time against the Rockets they showed a stat of Kobe's shot attempts on the diffferent players that had guarded him the entire game, and Kobe's shots on Battier was around 8-24.

[romain.star]

They're both great defenders, but I think the best man on man defender in the NBA is Shane Battier. He REALLY gives Kobe a hard time, and gives every other offensive threat player a hard time. Last time against the Rockets they showed a stat of Kobe's shot attempts on the diffferent players that had guarded him the entire game, and Kobe's shots on Battier was around 8-24.

that leads to this question : are the rockets a threat to the top 3 teams in the West?

[Infamous]

that leads to this question : are the rockets a threat to the top 3 teams in the West?

I would say that, but I don't think they have the experience to beat any of the top three. In the playoffs, it's rare that you come out of nowhere and beat a experienced team. Just to say though, I'm about 90% sure the Spurs and Suns have their number, but I could POSSIBLY see them beating the Mavericks..

We'll see if they can beat the Jazz though. Both teams are pretty evenly matched, last time they faced off it went down to the wire with the Jazz winning.

[Texas_Ranger]

No he's not.

[Kobulingam]

LMAO....

The Suns don't even have a Defensive Philosophy... I know Bowen is not that good, but Raja Bell blows.

Man this guy is jokes.

[Shank]

Bowen is easily a better defender than Bell, but I guess Bell's defensive efforts are magnified by playing next to El Matador, Steve Nash.

[td4mvp21]

Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who. :lol

But I'm sure Bowen will get shifted a lot of the Spurs play the Mavs - JHo, Dirk, Terry, Stack.

I think Bowen should just guard JHo the whole game, see if he can take him out of his rhythm. Parker can handle Terry (although Terry will probably get his anyway). If we take JHo out of his rhythm, that would translate into a win IMO. JHo is what gets the Mavs started at the beginning of games and he provides a spark for them when they need it. At this point, I'd still put Elson on Dirk, that way the rest of the Spurs could focus on the other Mavs players. Elson won't stop Dirk, but he's quick enough to stay with him. As long as we shut down the rest of the Mavs players, we are fine. It worked in the first half of the last game vs. the Mavs, and when the Spurs got away from that plan, the Mavs came back. Surprise.

[howbouthemspurs]

Bowen is way better than bell

[RonMexico]

Bowen was the difference in harassing Nash and making him give up 7 TO's in the loss to the Spurs.

Still, Bell played some good D against Kobe and when he was switched on Odom last night. Kobe wasn't shooting well, but he also wasn't getting very easy looks.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Timvp, that might've been the best post you've made all season, and that's really saying a lot


:tu

[aaronstampler]

I don't understand what you are getting out. First of all, the Spurs not going after offensive boards has won them three championships. It can't be argued whether it's an effective tactic, because it has proven to be so.

And well-coached team's know that Bowen's offense isn't the Spurs' weakness. The Spurs have never lost a series because teams have dared Bowen to beat them. Because the teams that have tried that strategy against the Spurs have all lost.

The way to beat the Spurs is to not leave Bowen open. Phil Jackson and AJ know this. Bowen isn't one to choke, especially in the playoffs. You don't keep a man on him at all-times, the Spurs will find him open and they'll win.

Sure, Bowen isn't going to win you anything taking the ball off the dribble. But those who say that the Spurs play 4-on-5 on offense or whatever don't really have a clue on how or why the Spurs lose in the playoffs.

In games five and six last year against the Mavs, Bowen had one field goal attempt in 69 minutes. It wasn't because the Spurs never passed it to him, it was because AJ knows that Bowen isn't someone you dare to beat you.

To beat the Spurs, you want TP and Manu shooting jumpers. You want to throw a bunch of double teams at Tim. You want to see if Finley or Barry will shrivel up under pressure. You try to expose the bench and make the Spurs go small. You don't leave Bowen open in the corner.



:lol

The Spurs glaring weakness has been Bowen's offense? He's right around his scoring output when the Spurs have won their two championships with him. Bowen's scoring (or lack of scoring) doesn't even crack the top 20 weaknesses for the Spurs.

Spurs fans don't understand the concept of a fifth option. The Spurs have three premiere scorers. Manu, Tim and Tony are all in the top 25 in the league in points per minute. Then after that, you have guys like Finley and Barry who put up a fair amount of shots.

As a team, the Spurs are third in the league in points per possession, behind only the Suns and the Mavs. How much more offensively potent do Spurs fans want the team to be?

It's not as if Bowen averaging six points is holding the team back. If he averaged more, it'd just be less shots for someone else. It's not like if Bowen was replaced by a wing who averaged 15 points per game that the Spurs would become some offensive Phoenix Suns style juggernaut. All it means is that the shots would be redistributed.

And really, being third in the league in points per possession pretty much categorizes the Spurs as an offensive juggernaut. They score more per possession than teams like the Warriors and Nuggets. I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure this is the most potent Spurs offensive unit in the Tim Duncan era.

Spurs fans amaze me with their ability to focus on meaningless stats that don't begin to tell the whole picture. Instead of looking at Bowen's points per game, look at how the team averages more points per possession when he's on the floor. Instead of whining about a lack of steal or blocks, look at how the Spurs average 10 less points given up per 100 possessions with Bowen on the court (or how the Spurs give up only 85 points per 48 minutes that Bowen is on the court). Instead of whining about how Bowen doesn't rebound, look at how the Spurs are a better rebounding team with Bowen on the court.

Last I looked, Bowen was second in the NBA in +/-. Yet Spurs fans would vote him off the team if they could.

Like I've said before, people won't realize how much Bowen means to what the Spurs have done the last half decade until he's gone.


If Pop is going to play with two bigs behind him, then Bruce can play 40 minutes a night and I'll be okay with it. But if we play small, I'd rather not have him out there because smallball is supposed to be an offensive line-up and he's an offensive liability.

I'm not writing this as a knock on Bowen. If it was up to me we'd play big ALL THE TIME. But if Pop insists on playing small, I'd rather go with Brent-Fin-Manu as much as possible.