James White / Rawle Marshall

[Mr. Body]

Some may remember way back at the start of the season, when the Spurs pounced on James White. They - and we - were keeping a close eye on the situation with the Indiana Pacers, who had too many players on their roster and were apparently going to have to cut somebody. All signs pointed to them cutting a decent young small forward prospect, either Rawle Marshall, obtained in the trade with Dallas, or James White, a player they traded three draft picks for, who had just been drafted.

White showed some signs of resting on his laurels and attitude after signing his contract, apparently loafing in preseason. Marshall was outproducing him in preseason games - obviously his familiarity with the NBA game played a part. With tears in his eyes, Rick Carlysle was on camera saying the team letting White go was one of the toughest decisions he had ever been part of. I wonder if he saw it as a sign of troubles ahead for the franchise.

No one picked up White off waivers - pretty much everyone's roster was full. Would the Lakers cut Aaron McKie for him? Who needed him? The Spurs played it just right, letting him clear, then signing him to a new, more favorable contract. (White got to pull a guaranteed salary plus a new non-guaranteed one.)

How are they doing now?

Rawle Marshall...
38 games, 8:54 minutes a game. 34.2 fg%, 14.3 3p%, 68.9 ft%, 0.7 rpg, 2.3 ppg.

James White...
5 games, 19:00 minutes a game. 50 fg%, 33.3 3p%, 72.7 ft%, 3 rpg, 8 ppg.

Obviously the jury is still out on these two players, but I am pleasantly surprised with White's production as of late.

[Phenomanul]

White sill has many raw qualities....

An offseason with Chip, perhaps some summerleague involvement and a participation in a full training camp, plus more mentorship from Finley/Bowen/Barry/Manu will do him wonders....

Did I mention White needs to hit the weight room?

[Mr. Body]

I don't think he'll ever gain weight. He has Rip Hamilton's physique, if skinnier. I've been happy with his attitude, and he seems to have a scorer's mentality along with going after it on defense. Maybe not much statwise otherwise, but that's okay.

[Darkwaters]

Both Marshall and White are solid prospects. But I'm glad we got White instead of Marshall. I think he will be in the rotation next year and contribute here and there all season.

[timvp]

Is this the Mr. Body who likes James White or hates James White? Need to know which one I'm talking to :)

But yeah, White has been a surprise. With the way he's played while on the Spurs, no team would waive him.

[rocyaice]

Yea I like Marshall as well. I couldn't believe the Mavs gave him up. He has great potential but if I had to pick i'd definately take White. His athleticism alone is enough for me to take him over Marshall.

[Mr. Body]

Is this the Mr. Body who likes James White or hates James White? Need to know which one I'm talking to :)

But yeah, White has been a surprise. With the way he's played while on the Spurs, no team would waive him.

Pleasantly surprised. I do confess to letting my emotional love for the team go all over the place. I thought he was busting but it looks like he'll turn out pretty well.

[bdictjames]

At the start of the season I was comparing the guy to Devin Brown. Good athleticism, but needs to work on defense and shooting. Looks like I was somehow part-right.

[Darkwaters]

At the start of the season I was comparing the guy to Devin Brown. Good athleticism, but needs to work on defense and shooting. Looks like I was somehow part-right.

Speaking of Devin...hes been on a tear recently with the Hornets.

[Bruno]

White and Butler are the two winners of the end of the season garbage games. Udrih and Ely are the two losers of these games.

Spurs summer league team, unlike previous Spurs summer league teams, could be really interesting to follow : White, Butler, Mahinmi, Sanikidze and players from the 07 draft.

[BeerIsGood!]

White's defensive showing this year has been the biggest surprise, probably followed by his fairly good rebounding numbers.

[timvp]

23 points and 10 rebounds on 53% shooting in 36 minutes for Jackie Butler after the all-star break gives me hope that the Spurs can again have a center who does more than average 5, 5 and 1.

[DaMavs02]

The Mavs were in the unfortunate situation of being low on roster spots and needing to get a backup point guard. So Darrell Armstrong, Josh Powell (Another good young prospect) and Rawle Marshall got sent out for Anthony Johnson.

Armstrong went on to play pretty well, Powell's getting playing time in Golden State (Looks like he could be a Haslem type player in a couple years), and Anthony Johnson is in Atlanta.

Not a good trade for the Mavs at all.

[StylisticS]

Yea I like Marshall as well. I couldn't believe the Mavs gave him up. He has great potential but if I had to pick i'd definately take White. His athleticism alone is enough for me to take him over Marshall.

I think we gave him up because of we drafted Maurice Ager. I liked Marshall too but I understood the trade.

[bigfan]

White and Butler are the two winners of the end of the season garbage games. Udrih and Ely are the two losers of these games.

Spurs summer league team, unlike previous Spurs summer league teams, could be really interesting to follow : White, Butler, Mahinmi, Sanikidze and players from the 07 draft.

Absolutely right, Beno and Ely I bet are gonners after the season. White and Butler are keepers for now.

[AFBlue]

White's defensive showing this year has been the biggest surprise, probably followed by his fairly good rebounding numbers.

For me, the biggest suprise concerning White has been his aggressiveness.

I read all the scouting reports that said White had unbelievable athletic ability, but that is was negated because he refused to slash into the lane and finish in traffic due to his skinny frame. That hasn't been the case at all in the times that I've seen him. He's been going to hole aggressively and either converting or looking to open up opportunities for others.

One of the biggest problems with the current Spurs team is its lack of "scorers" and abundance of "shooters". Perhaps White can be one of those much needed "scorers" in the future.

[AFBlue]

23 points and 10 rebounds on 53% shooting in 36 minutes for Jackie Butler after the all-star break gives me hope that the Spurs can again have a center who does more than average 5, 5 and 1.

I am impressed by the softness of his shot. He seems to have good touch around the basket and a smooth release. It has led to him converting 15ft shots and baseline hookshots with regularity. It also translates to his FT shooting...100% on the season!

I also have hope that he can be the legitimate answer to the "other" big issue. Two marginal NBA guys splitting 20 minutes a piece and playing Duncan at C may be the short-term answer, but I sure as hell would prefer it not be the long-term one....

[BeerIsGood!]

For me, the biggest suprise concerning White has been his aggressiveness.

I read all the scouting reports that said White had unbelievable athletic ability, but that is was negated because he refused to slash into the lane and finish in traffic due to his skinny frame. That hasn't been the case at all in the times that I've seen him. He's been going to hole aggressively and either converting or looking to open up opportunities for others.

One of the biggest problems with the current Spurs team is its lack of "scorers" and abundance of "shooters". Perhaps White can be one of those much needed "scorers" in the future.

White's aggresiveness has been very impressive in the time he's played, but with his skinny frame he may end up being a little too light to consistently take it strong to the rim. I see him being like Manu in the sense that he'll have to develop a strong outside shot in order to stay healthy in the long run. I do like his ability to take it strong when needed, and I think his aggressiveness is what is manifesting itself into his defense, rebounding, and offensive prowess.

[BeerIsGood!]

If only Butler were a couple of inches taller...

I think he'll always have trouble with long, athletic centers, but if he learns to use his body to his advantage he will be able to hold his own on both ends of the court with regularity. He does have a very nice scoring touch, and seeing him drain a 16 ft over the longer Gasol yesterday gives a lot of hope that he will develop a midrange shot to keep the other centers honest.

[DON VITO]

You guys worry about his weight too much. All NBA players are on weight lifting programs and have personal trainers. He isn't going to get much bigger than he already is. If he gains weight, it will only take away from his athleticism. Kevin Martin, Tayshaun Prince, and Rip Hamilton have no problem tearing up the league. Reggie Miller wasn't too shabby either.

[Darkwaters]

If only Butler were a couple of inches taller...

I think he'll always have trouble with long, athletic centers, but if he learns to use his body to his advantage he will be able to hold his own on both ends of the court with regularity. He does have a very nice scoring touch, and seeing him drain a 16 ft over the longer Gasol yesterday gives a lot of hope that he will develop a midrange shot to keep the other centers honest.

Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that Ludden was claiming that Jackie wouldn't last much longer?

[Kevin Blackistone]

You guys worry about his weight too much. All NBA players are on weight lifting programs and have personal trainers. He isn't going to get much bigger than he already is. If he gains weight, it will only take away from his athleticism. Kevin Martin, Tayshaun Prince, and Rip Hamilton have no problem tearing up the league. Reggie Miller wasn't too shabby either.

Prince is longer than White, and everyone else on there can shoot the ball well from the outside, which is what White will have to do. None of the comparable players you listed consistently attack the rim hard.

[AFBlue]

White's aggresiveness has been very impressive in the time he's played, but with his skinny frame he may end up being a little too light to consistently take it strong to the rim. I see him being like Manu in the sense that he'll have to develop a strong outside shot in order to stay healthy in the long run. I do like his ability to take it strong when needed, and I think his aggressiveness is what is manifesting itself into his defense, rebounding, and offensive prowess.

White may be skinny, but that doesn't make him frail. To my knowledge, he hasn't been an injury concern in the past. I agree that it would be in his best interest to refine his shot, but his ability to utilize his athleticism and take it to the rim is something to be coveted....especially in this league so oriented to the aggressor.

Bottom Line: White is not Shaun Livingston skinny and/or frail.

[Darkwaters]

Prince is longer than White, and everyone else on there can shoot the ball well from the outside, which is what White will have to do. None of the comparable players you listed consistently attack the rim hard.

Very good point. But I think that White will be able to add a decent shot to his game. He doesn't have to be a "shooter" but just be respectable with his shot.

[AFBlue]

Prince is longer than White, and everyone else on there can shoot the ball well from the outside, which is what White will have to do. None of the comparable players you listed consistently attack the rim hard.

Kevin Martin is a great slasher, and Rip Hamilton is one of the most active players on the court coming of screens. Both see a good bit of contact on a nightly basis. Again, I agree that it's best if White learns to shoot more consistently, but his aggressiveness is key...until he gets hurt, I think he should keep at it.

[traitoravery]

James White!!!!!

[DON VITO]

Prince is longer than White, and everyone else on there can shoot the ball well from the outside, which is what White will have to do. None of the comparable players you listed consistently attack the rim hard.
Are you kidding me? Kevin Martin attacks the rim every game. Weight only really matters if White is getting hurt. Has he been hurt? No. The lighter you are, the quicker you are going to be and the higher you are going to jump.

[BeerIsGood!]

White may be skinny, but that doesn't make him frail. To my knowledge, he hasn't been an injury concern in the past. I agree that it would be in his best interest to refine his shot, but his ability to utilize his athleticism and take it to the rim is something to be coveted....especially in this league so oriented to the aggressor.

Bottom Line: White is not Shaun Livingston skinny and/or frail.

I never meant to imply that he's frail. I have no doubt that he can take the pounding that will come in the NBA from attacking the rim with aggression, but with his frame those hits will take a bigger toll on his body than it would someone who is considerably bigger. It's very similar to an NFL running back that is small of stature - the hits accumulate over time and shorten many careers.

The same thing has happened with Manu, and the result is the Spurs coaching staff encouraging Manu to shoot more during the season to save his body from the beating he takes when he takes it to the hole often. That said, White probably still has a few years of pounding to take before he starts having the hip/back type problems that Manu started having.

[AFBlue]

James White!!!!!

You stole Borosai's thunder! :lol

[mardigan]

Garnett is one of the lankiest fuckers I have ever seen, and his weight never bothered him in the league. You dont have to get big to get strong

[BeerIsGood!]

Garnett is one of the lankiest fuckers I have ever seen, and his weight never bothered him in the league. You dont have to get big to get strong

Garnett is 7 ft tall and considerably bigger than White. Bad comparison.

My point to all of it is this:

James White will have to develop a significant outside threat to be effective in this league for the long term.

[AFBlue]

If only Butler were a couple of inches taller...

I think he'll always have trouble with long, athletic centers, but if he learns to use his body to his advantage he will be able to hold his own on both ends of the court with regularity. He does have a very nice scoring touch, and seeing him drain a 16 ft over the longer Gasol yesterday gives a lot of hope that he will develop a midrange shot to keep the other centers honest.

I think Butler's size will negate any height disadvantage he may have because he should be able to create seperation with his body in order to get his shot off....something not foreign to him.

That was how Jackie used to do it...only before, he was a 270lb lard ass. Then the Spurs staff made him lose alot of that weight, and I think his early-mid season struggles reflected the fact that he lost much of his girth he had used previously body up opponents.

He's now at a respectable weight, and I fully expect the coaching staff to continue pushing him to add muscle to his frame....which he has the ability to do.

[The Truth #6]

If White can become an excellent defender and decent shooter, he will find his role. With Parker and Duncan on the team, he doesn't need to dominate the ball. He's never going to be the Michael Jordan people hoped for. I think in college people were disappointed in him that he wasn't a star, but in the NBA he might be successful if he is just a very solid role player. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[AFBlue]

I never meant to imply that he's frail. I have no doubt that he can take the pounding that will come in the NBA from attacking the rim with aggression, but with his frame those hits will take a bigger toll on his body than it would someone who is considerably bigger. It's very similar to an NFL running back that is small of stature - the hits accumulate over time and shorten many careers.

The same thing has happened with Manu, and the result is the Spurs coaching staff encouraging Manu to shoot more during the season to save his body from the beating he takes when he takes it to the hole often. That said, White probably still has a few years of pounding to take before he starts having the hip/back type problems that Manu started having.

I see your point. To maximize his time in this league he'll need to learn to moderate his aggressiveness and slashing because he doesn't have the muscle to sustain the contact he'll inevitably absorb...right?

It's a good point, though I'd hate to see him learn a shot (like the Bowen corner-3) and then forget to slash...because slashing is what makes him the most valuable to this team. The Spurs have enough "shooters"....

[mardigan]

Garnett is 7 ft tall and considerably bigger than White. Bad comparison.

My point to all of it is this:

James White will have to develop a significant outside threat to be effective in this league for the long term.
Yea, bad comparison considering he weighs 20 more pounds than White, your right that is considerable

[Mr. Body]

One complaint about White was that he didn't use his athleticism in the half court and "rarely dunked in traffic." His fraility is the major reason - he can't take hits like Barnes put on him in GS very often, but that's why his aggressiveness so far has been a nice surprise.

But he's as frail as Hamilton, who at least has his pull-up jumper to go for him. Rip rarely slashes.

[Darkwaters]

I see your point. To maximize his time in this league he'll need to learn to moderate his aggressiveness and slashing because he doesn't have the muscle to sustain the contact he'll inevitably absorb...right?

It's a good point, though I'd hate to see him learn a shot (like the Bowen corner-3) and then forget to slash...because slashing is what makes him the most valuable to this team. The Spurs have enough "shooters"....

White is probably more of a long-term plan for the Spurs. I think they're hoping to play him a decent amount next season and then resign him and reap the rewards. Following next season most of those pure shooters will be gone. Barry, Finley and Horry all have expiring deals next season (and Horry will probably leave before that). The only other pure shooters that remain are Bonner (if he resigns) and maybe Udrih (and do you really think he'll be around?).

[mardigan]

6-7 200 isnt that frail. If he put 10-15 pounds of muscle on he will be fine, and he can put that on in a offseason

[AFBlue]

White is probably more of a long-term plan for the Spurs. I think they're hoping to play him a decent amount next season and then resign him and reap the rewards. Following next season most of those pure shooters will be gone. Barry, Finley and Horry all have expiring deals next season (and Horry will probably leave before that). The only other pure shooters that remain are Bonner (if he resigns) and maybe Udrih (and do you really think he'll be around?).

I know that many of the shooters will be gone in '08, but the Spurs will ostensibly have a good amount of cash to re-supply the "shooters" around Duncan. I'm not saying White shouldn't develop a decent shot, just that I'd prefer if he continued to be aggresive and go to the hole...the Spurs have too few players willing to do that.

As far as his long-term potential...

I think the Spurs will push for him to gain consistency with his shot, but that they will focus mainly on making him their defensive stopper, a la Bruce Bowen.

EDIT: I wonder how he fits into their long-term plans altogether. With most of the current rotation players coming back next year, it's unlikely White will see regular minutes. He'll then be a FA in 2008 when the Spurs could look to go after "bigger fish" with what money they've got.

I wonder how much they'll be willing to spend, and conversely what he'll be asking, at that point....

[timvp]

6-7 200 isnt that frail.

Problem with White is I think he's more like 6-6 175.

[mardigan]

Problem with White is I think he's more like 6-6 175.
Damn really? I didnt know that, I was going off of NBA.com, but i know that they regularly screw stuff like that up. If that is the case I can see the problem, especially when you have to put weight on to a naturally athletic player, might mess up his game

[AFBlue]

Problem with White is I think he's more like 6-6 175.

He looks skinny, but I dunno about 175....that's Shaun Livingston territory, and I wouldn't put them in the same category. He's also fairly muscular....though I'll disagree with Mardy and say that he probably doesn't have the frame to put on another 10-15 of muscle.

[mardigan]

He looks skinny, but I dunno about 175....that's Shaun Livingston territory, and I wouldn't put them in the same category. He's also fairly muscular....though I'll disagree with Mardy and say that he probably doesn't have the frame to put on another 10-15 of muscle.
Its really not that hard to put on 10 pounds of muscle. Add some strenght up top, get your core stronger, and get your legs stronger and that will be close to 10 pounds right there. Then again ,you guys have seen him more than I have, so I will just have to go with yall

[AFBlue]

Its really not that hard to put on 10 pounds of muscle. Add some strenght up top, get your core stronger, and get your legs stronger and that will be close to 10 pounds right there. Then again ,you guys have seen him more than I have, so I will just have to go with yall

He's very muscular and fit, but he probably has an incredibly high metabolism, and for some it's damn near impossible to put on 10 pounds...fat, muscle, or otherwise...without the use of some juice.

I personally cannot relate, but I've had friends that were workout freaks and couldn't gain the weight.

[Darkwaters]

I know that many of the shooters will be gone in '08, but the Spurs will ostensibly have a good amount of cash to re-supply the "shooters" around Duncan. I'm not saying White shouldn't develop a decent shot, just that I'd prefer if he continued to be aggresive and go to the hole...the Spurs have too few players willing to do that.

As far as his long-term potential...

I think the Spurs will push for him to gain consistency with his shot, but that they will focus mainly on making him their defensive stopper, a la Bruce Bowen.

EDIT: I wonder how he fits into their long-term plans altogether. With most of the current rotation players coming back next year, it's unlikely White will see regular minutes. He'll then be a FA in 2008 when the Spurs could look to go after "bigger fish" with what money they've got.

I wonder how much they'll be willing to spend, and conversely what he'll be asking, at that point....

The Spurs really seem more interested in acquiring a long SF than a guy like White. I really look at White as more of a shooting guard that can pick up some minutes at the 3. The long-term plans for White would probably be to make him the 6th man that can come in and give you energy off the bench.

As far as his asking price...that really depends on how good he looks next season.

[mardigan]

He's very muscular and fit, but he probably has an incredibly high metabolism, and for some it's damn near impossible to put on 10 pounds...fat, muscle, or otherwise...without the use of some juice.

I personally cannot relate, but I've had friends that were workout freaks and couldn't gain the weight.
I guess your right Tony, hopefully, he can get stronger without having to put on much weight or mess with his athleticism

[Mr. Body]

Like others above, I see White as more a SG than SF, or at least the Spurs won't find their long-term solution in him.

As for clearing out playing space for younger guys, don't you think this is the summer Brent Barry gets moved? Perhaps it hangs on the 2008 Plan and taking on new salary.

[Darkwaters]

As for clearing out playing space for younger guys, don't you think this is the summer Brent Barry gets moved? Perhaps it hangs on the 2008 Plan and taking on new salary.
My thoughts exactly. I have him penciled in as being traded.

[AFBlue]

I disagree with those of you that think White has no future as the starting SF. I'm not saying he will be, but I wouldn't rule it out. Bowen stuck with this team as the starting SF for years because of what he brings on the defensive end. White has that same defensive potential, and if he brings that defensive intensity every night, I think the Spurs could reward him with a starting spot in the future...as a pure Bowen replecement, this guy fits the bill.

Now, whether he comes off the bench in that capacity, and/or whether the Spurs choose to start a SF of the 3/4 ilk, I dunno. I think there is room on this team for both of them eventually.

[Bruno]

James White future with Spurs is as defender.
Spurs will need to find a successor for Bruce and one player won't be enough : Bruce is able to defend Iverson one day and Zach Randolph the next one. Spurs likely won't find a player as awesome as Bruce with that kind of versatility.

White is quite long and very quick : he can be a great defender against SGs. Spurs need another player to defend against strong SF.
If Spurs sign a strong/big defensive SF or if they draft one (a player like Dominic McGuire), they will have the start of a solution for Bowen's successor.

[leemajors]

is white quick enough to spell tony defending harris? i haven't seen enough of him to form much of an opinion.

[AFBlue]

James White future with Spurs is as defender.
Spurs will need to find a successor for Bruce and one player won't be enough : Bruce is able to defend Iverson one day and Zach Randolph the next one. Spurs likely won't find a player as awesome as Bruce with that kind of versatility.

White is quite long and very quick : he can be a great defender against SGs. Spurs need another player to defend against strong SF.
If Spurs sign a strong/big defensive SF or if they draft one (a player like Dominic McGuire), they will have the start of a solution for Bowen's successor.

Bruce may have the toughest assignment, which could include Iverson or Randolph on a given night, but that doesn't mean those players don't give him trouble. Bruce is at his best when guarding players similar to his size/speed...guys like Kobe and Marion.

Similarly, James White would be best guarding the 2 spot, but I believe he has the capability to develop into the Bowen replacement that routinely draws the best opposing player.

[AFBlue]

is white quick enough to spell tony defending harris? i haven't seen enough of him to form much of an opinion.

Probably not, but in his defense, Bowen probably isn't quick enough either. I think the primary defender on Harris other than Parker will be Vaughn.

[wildbill2u]

When gauging a players performance on a game or two, it's best to remember the old maxim:

One swallow does not make a spring...or a bad girl.

[theMUHMEshow]

I like Rawle. Nice kid...went to Oakland U which is right down the road from my place. I am still suprised the kid is still in the league.