Joey Goes Out Swinging at Bavetta?

[FromWayDowntown]

I realize Kori wanted to end the proliferation of threads about the Crawford situation, but I think this might deserve its own discussion. The bolded part below is particularly interesting if for no other reason than Crawford's parting shot seems to be an effort to call Dick Bavetta incompetent and decrying the notion that Bavetta is qualified to officiate the NBA Finals.

From Marc Stein's Blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2841154&name=stein_marc) tonight:

Kudos to my colleague Chris Sheridan. He called it. Sheridan wrote in the immediate aftermath of Sunday's scenes in Dallas that referee Joey Crawford would be suspended for the rest of the season. I certainly expected the league to suspend him and even make the punishment public this time, as opposed to the usual Cone of Silence lowered over any dose of ref discipline, but I honestly didn't anticipate such a punitive step. I get the sense that the Spurs and Duncan didn't expect it, either.

But now?

Informed sources say Crawford's NBA career is likely over.

The terms of his indefinite suspension call for Crawford, a 31-year veteran who has refereed 38 NBA Finals games, to meet with league officials at season's end to assess his future.

But Crawford made it clear to NBA executive vice president Stu Jackson on Tuesday that he would eject Duncan again if the circumstances were the same.

Crawford likewise informed superiors (including NBA commissioner David Stern) and fellow referees via e-mail Tuesday that "if my employer does not think that was acceptable, I have a problem" reffing in the future. Crawford has maintained from the start that Duncan deserved two technicals for what he deemed to be disrespecting the game by "laughing [at] and mocking the officials."

Crawford also blasted fellow referee Dick Bavetta in the e-mail obtained by ESPN.com, hinting at divisions among referees between those who do and don't support Bavetta and writing that maybe Bavetta will wind up as the crew chief in Game 7 of the NBA "which is a travesty in itself you even being in the finals."

Stern, in an appearance on Tuesday's "Pardon The Interruption" on ESPN, acknowledged Crawford's discontent, telling co-hosts Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon: "In fairness, I would say that [Crawford] doesn't think he did anything wrong and probably doesn't wish to work in the NBA any more."

Crawford's father (Shag Crawford) and brother (Jerry Crawford) were/are longtime baseball umpires. No referee in the NBA is more put off by being shown up than Joey Crawford. But that has always been the knock on an official that the NBA, in its press release to announce the suspension, felt compelled to remind us "is consistently rated as one of our top referees." More than a few times in his three decades with a whistle, obviously, Crawford's calls and game management have overshadowed the actual game.

The league does and will always have big problems with that approach, as it stressed to Crawford in a heated meeting after the 2003 playoffs. That's when Crawford ejected then-Mavs coach Don Nelson from a Western Conference finals game in San Antonio for refusing Crawford's order to return to the bench and standing defiantly at midcourt. Crawford was sternly warned that any repeat offenses would be dealt with severely.

Stern obviously wasn't kidding.

The Commish gave referees license to call more technical fouls this season, in the league's ongoing attempt to improve its image, but clearly doesn't equate anything that happened after Duncan's first technical Sunday with being tougher on the players. Hitting Duncan with a second T for laughter on the bench? Inviting him to fight, whether it was a literal or figurative invitation? On PTI, Stern said: "Joey knows our view on, shall I say, his loss of control. You just can't keep doing that."

Crawford, meanwhile, seemed to be saying goodbye in his message to bosses and colleagues, writing: "Please do not be sad for me [as] I have had a great run and a great career and NOBODY will ever take that from me."

He also likened his situation to longtime ref Jake O'Donnell, who was barred by the league from working the 1995 NBA Finals after refusing to shake hands with Houston's Clyde Drexler before a '95 playoff game and later ejecting Drexler. O'Donnell never refereed in the league again.

[slayermin]

Crawford also blasted fellow referee Dick Bavetta in the e-mail obtained by ESPN.com, hinting at divisions among referees between those who do and don't support Bavetta and writing that maybe Bavetta will wind up as the crew chief in Game 7 of the NBA "which is a travesty in itself you even being in the finals."

Joey Crawford >>> Dick Bavetta

[baseline bum]

Bavetta already did ref game 7 of the Finals (2005), with Crawford and Eddie Rush.

[whottt]

Seriously...I'm not that happy about Crawford being suspended....right now.

He's a much better ref than Bavetta and Salvatore, who are probably the two worst officials in any sport.

Joey may be a dick but he's not a complete incompetent like Salvatore and Bavetta are. Ditto Javie...

[slayermin]

Bavetta already did ref game 7 of the Finals (2005), with Crawford and Eddie Rush.

Wasn't Joey the crew chief?

[Sec24Row7]

Wow... Jesus Joey... attacking Bavetta? You know the dude personally.. that is pretty rediculous...

Did David Stern take your stapler? Are you going to burn the building down?


Anyone else feel like its kind of funny that as soon as Joey gets officiated he decides he has to get his money's worth after he cant take the calls and gets ejected?

[FromWayDowntown]

Bavetta already did ref game 7 of the Finals (2005), with Crawford and Eddie Rush.

Yeah, I realize that. I think two things are interesting, though, about Joey's statement: (1) it would seem that Joey, who didn't have Bavetta's seniority, was likely the crew chief for Game 7 in 2005, which would suggest to me that the league believed then that Crawford was its best official -- at least for that season; and (2) the e-mail suggests, as Stein notes, that there is a division among NBA officials about whether Bavetta is any good at what he does.

I think the latter is worth noting, only because it suggests that after years of hearing that fans don't now what they're talking about when it comes to officiating, Crawford is perhaps acknowledging that fans know enough to realize that Bavetta might do things other than just calling the game and that there's been an official veil of protection that keeps officials from acknowledging the problematic nature of some of Bavetta's antics.

I'll add, as a side note, that if there is anything to the various conspiracy theories surrounding the NBA -- none of which I buy, for the record -- it would seem that the most likely suspect to spill the beans now has an axe to grind and isn't concerned any longer about his status with the league.

[slayermin]

Like I said in my previous posts, if it wasn't for Joey Crawford, Stern would get his "Lakers vs. Lakers" every year. Especially if Bavetta, Rush, or Salvatore is the lead official in the big games during the playoffs.

[FromWayDowntown]

Like I said in my previous posts, if it wasn't for Joey Crawford, Stern would get his "Lakers vs. Lakers" every year. Especially if Bavetta, Rush, or Salvatore is the lead official in the big games during the playoffs.

I don't think its feasible to think that Crawford is singularly responsible for protecting against pushing big market teams through -- he could only work one game of any particular series (other than maybe the NBA Finals) and the other guys could combine to officiate as many as 3 games in a series. I'd agree that Joey generally came off as more on the up-and-up than Bavetta (a notorious game manipulator), Rush (famous for asking the official scorer during a timeout how many fouls Shaq had), and Salvatore (the king of the FT shooting contest). But I also think that there are a number of other officials in the league who don't feel an obligation to favor teams or to manipulate games -- top-level officials like Bob Delaney, Dan Crawford, and Mike Callahan.

Like I say, though, I think if there is any truth to the conspiracy talk, as slayer intimates, the proof of that is most likely to come from a guy like Joey Crawford.

[whottt]

Actually...Bavetta's not exactly notorious for low FT games himself...he may be a tad better about FT's, but he blows a hell of a lot more calls.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's pretty interesting to read. I felt a little sorry that he appears on the way out for good until I read him saying if he was in the same situation again he'd throw TD out again. That's as stubborn as anything else.

[slayermin]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Joey worked as the crew chief in many critical playoff games that ultimately decided the championship.

And as much as I like Danny Crawford, I wonder what Joey would have done in that 0.4 game. He has the type of personality that might have disallowed that shot. I wonder what Joey thought about the 0.4.

[tmtcsc]

Bennet Salvatore is the worst ref in the league. What's with all the bullshit regarding Bavetta ? I think he's a good ref. I actually thought Crawford was good too (Except for the nonsense). He deserved what he got and its all a shame.

[ShoogarBear]

It's pretty interesting to read. I felt a little sorry that he appears on the way out for good until I read him saying if he was in the same situation again he'd throw TD out again. That's as stubborn as anything else.WTF? Unbanned?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

so, who is the best ref in the game?

[dbreiden83080]

This just further proves that he has no class whatsoever and does not deserve to be an NBA official anymore. So Tim deserves to be tossed for laughing at you but you were in the right by challenging him to fight. This guy is messed up big time. He has an out of control EGO and Stern clearly let him know that by essentially canning his BUTT. Virtually nobody came down on Crawford's side on this issue not the Gen public and not the league. He wants to dig in his heels and refuse to take any blame that is fine, let us know how things are on the unemployment line.

[FromWayDowntown]

Actually...Bavetta's not exactly notorious for low FT games himself...he may be a tad better about FT's, but he blows a hell of a lot more calls.

I've never thought that Bavetta blows calls. I think Bavetta is constantly looking for opportunities to keep games close and that he chooses what to see and what not to see based on the game situation.

The most vivid example of my mind came last season in a game between the Spurs and Clippers in SA. The Clippers scored with less than 20 seconds left to take a 2 point lead and the Spurs called timeout. During the timeout, I turned to the guy sitting behind me and said that I figured Bavetta would find some way to put Duncan on the line with enough time left that the Clippers would have one last possession to try to win the game if Duncan made both FT. Sure enough, after the timeout, Bavetta called a foul on Brand on a play where he was defending Duncan near half-court. It was a sketchy call all the way, but with Bavetta in the building it was perfectly predictable. He got a game that was either going to end with some drama in the last 30 seconds or go to overtime.

I think sometimes Bavetta believes that his obligation is to ensure that possibility as often as he can, even if it means that he's inconsistent over the course of a game.

As most know, it's not a coincidence that Bavetta seems to end up working game 3's in series where a heavy favorite has decisively won Games 1 and 2 at home -- in the Spurs' case, games like Game 3 of the 1999 Finals; Game 3 of the 2001 First Round series against Minnesota; Game 3 of the 2005 First Round series against Denver (a game with some ridiculous number of called fouls).

[slayermin]

so, who is the best ref in the game?

With Joey suspended, Danny Crawford is the best, hands down.

[timvp]

Interesting. Nice find.

Bavetta has been a bad ref for a while now. He lives for the animated offensive foul call. I truly believe that's one of the main reason why he still refs.

Salvatore, Nies, Javie and Bavetta are the bottom of the barrel. Crawford is a much better ref than all four of those guys.

The good news is I've been impressed by the new breed of official. The younger generation is much more business like and stay in the background. I think what happened was that at one point in time, the NBA needed "bad guys" to help ratings and fan interest ... so they looked for refs with personality. Nowadays, the NBA just wants quality refs who blend into the background.

Two questions for FromWayDowntown:

1) If you could send three refs off of the NBA island for good, who would they be?
2) Are you as impressed as I am with the young crop of refs?

Thanks.

:smokin

[T Park]

Dan Crawford.

Hands down. I like Javie also, hes fair,

[slayermin]

I've never thought that Bavetta blows calls. I think Bavetta is constantly looking for opportunities to keep games close and that he chooses what to see and what not to see based on the game situation.

The most vivid example of my mind came last season in a game between the Spurs and Clippers in SA. The Clippers scored with less than 20 seconds left to take a 2 point lead and the Spurs called timeout. During the timeout, I turned to the guy sitting behind me and said that I figured Bavetta would find some way to put Duncan on the line with enough time left that the Clippers would have one last possession to try to win the game if Duncan made both FT. Sure enough, after the timeout, Bavetta called a foul on Brand on a play where he was defending Duncan near half-court. It was a sketchy call all the way, but with Bavetta in the building it was perfectly predictable. He got a game that was either going to end with some drama in the last 30 seconds or go to overtime.

I think sometimes Bavetta believes that his obligation is to ensure that possibility as often as he can, even if it means that he's inconsistent over the course of a game.

As most know, it's not a coincidence that Bavetta seems to end up working game 3's in series where a heavy favorite has decisively won Games 1 and 2 at home -- in the Spurs' case, games like Game 3 of the 1999 Finals; Game 3 of the 2001 First Round series against Minnesota; Game 3 of the 2005 First Round series against Denver (a game with some ridiculous number of called fouls).

:tu

Bavetta keeps the game close kinda like a dad making sure his two kids are sharing a new toy. Maybe a bad analogy but he loves drama.

[FromWayDowntown]

With Joey suspended, Danny Crawford is the best, hands down.

I actually think that someone that nobody knows -- Mike Callahan -- might actually be the best official in the game. He seems to be pretty much impervious to bitching by players and coaches; he doesn't seem to care about the reaction he might get from a crowd for an unpopular call; and, I think most importantly of all, he's usually right. He doesn't have enough seniority yet to get the assignment for something like a Finals Game 7, but he's an extremely good official, I think.

I'd agree, though, that Danny Crawford is usually excellent, too.

[FromWayDowntown]

Two questions for FromWayDowntown:

1) If you could send three refs off of the NBA island for good, who would they be?
2) Are you as impressed as I am with the young crop of refs?

Thanks.

:smokin

The first question is a tough one. I'd pretty much have to confine myself to officials who get to call big games and are either incompetent or manipulators. Without thinking real hard about it, I think I'd send away Bernie Fryer, Dick Bavetta, and Bennett Salvatore.

I do agree with you on the second question. I think the class of officials that is just now getting into 2nd round games is a pretty solid group of assertive officials who tend to call good games (guys like Tony Brothers, Monty McCutchen, Scott Foster, Sean Corbin (the horrendous call against Oberto on Sunday notwithstanding), Tim Donaghy).

[T Park]

Theres another one.

Grey short hair.

Semi short guy.

[slayermin]

I actually think that someone that nobody knows -- Mike Callahan -- might actually be the best official in the game. He seems to be pretty much impervious to bitching by players and coaches; he doesn't seem to care about the reaction he might get from a crowd for an unpopular call; and, I think most importantly of all, he's usually right. He doesn't have enough seniority yet to get the assignment for something like a Finals Game 7, but he's an extremely good official, I think.

I'd agree, though, that Danny Crawford is usually excellent, too.

I like Callahan but is he a crew chief? Guys like him are usually the best because they aren't flamboyant. You would only remember him if he made some bad calls. I also think Bob Delaney is a good ref. He has been around for a while now but the only thing I can remember about him is that he's the Donnie Brasco dude.

[timvp]

Yeah, Callahan is a good one.

Of recent years, I thought Ronnie Nunn and Blane Reichelt were two of the better refs.

[T Park]

Im sorry FWD I cant agree with McCutchen.

McCutchen has been horrid for years.

[T Park]

OMG
Delaney is HOOOORRRRIBLE

He isn't flamboyant but my goodness, he cant get SQUAT right.

The Riley wannabe :lol

[slayermin]

Theres another one.

Grey short hair.

Semi short guy.

Bernie Fryer?

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nba/_photos/2003-04-30-ostertag.jpg

[wildbill2u]

If he's gone for good, I can't wait for Pal Joey to write a 'tell all' book about the inside secrets of referees in the NBA.

You can bet it won't be complimentary to Stern and some refs who he doesn't like or any who don't support him here. The guy is a revenge machine.

[slayermin]

OMG
Delaney is HOOOORRRRIBLE

He isn't flamboyant but my goodness, he cant get SQUAT right.

The Riley wannabe :lol

When did he screw the Spurs over?

[T Park]

Not necessarily screwing them over, hes just bad.

BTW, not fryer.

Fryer doesnt have grey hair :lol

[T Park]

Jim Clark.

Clark IMO is a fair and good official.

[timvp]

Not necessarily screwing them over, hes just bad.

BTW, not fryer.

Fryer doesnt have grey hair :lol

Jim Clark.











P.S.

When we are all talking about the worst refs, I assume that it goes without saying that Violet Palmer is the worst.

[FromWayDowntown]

I like Callahan but is he a crew chief? Guys like him are usually the best because they aren't flamboyant. You would only remember him if he made some bad calls. I also think Bob Delaney is a good ref. He has been around for a while now but the only thing I can remember about him is that he's the Donnie Brasco dude.

I suspect that during the regular season, Callahan basically functions as a crew chief. It's hard to say exactly who is and isn't a crew chief because crews shift so much during a season. But these days, Callahan doesn't work much with other big name officials.

I think of officials in groups and not so much as crew chiefs or anything like that. There is (or has been) a group of officials who've been the 12 who call games in the Finals. The league seems to think they're the best of the best (or at least the most experienced without being nearly unable to run the floor). For the last couple of years, that group has generally included:

Dick Bavetta
Mike Callahan
Dan Crawford
Joe Crawford
Bob Delaney
Joe Derosa
Bernie Fryer
Ron Garretson
Steve Javie
Jack Nies
Ed Rush
Bennett Salvatore

There's another group that's a mix of older guys who haven't been good enough to reach the Finals level (or who've been there and are on their way down) and younger guys who are on their way to reaching the Finals level. Those guys call games through the Conference Finals in the playoffs, including:

Jim Clark
Joe Forte
Ken Mauer
Bill Spooner
Derrick Stafford
Tom Washington
Greg Willard

Then there's a group of younger officials who are on their way up and are already getting 2nd round playoff games and will likely be the core group of officials in about 10 years, including:

Tony Brothers
Sean Corbin
Tim Donaghy
Scott Foster
Monty McCutchen
Michael Smith
Mark Wunderlich

Along with those guys is a group of older officials who've never quite made it beyond calling 2nd round playoff games; guys like:

Luis Grillo
David Jones
Ron Olesiak

After that, there are the younger officials, some of whom have started to get playoff games and others who don't have enough experience to get games like that, including:

Bennie Adams
Marc Davis
Kevin Fehr
Bill Kennedy
Courtney Kirkland
Rodney Mott
Derek Richardson
Leroy Richardson
Scott Wall
Leon Wood

And then there's the youngest of the young.

[FromWayDowntown]

Jim Clark.

Clark IMO is a fair and good official.

I guess, TPark, we'll agree to disagree. I think McCutchen is pretty good in terms and usually gets things right. On the other hand, I think Clark is actually pretty bad. He's far too susceptible to making calls based upon momentum and I think he gets a lot of calls just flat damned wrong. And I agree with the others who think that Delaney is among the best in the game.

And timvp's right -- Violet was not on my list of those I'd kick off the island mostly because she hasn't yet reached a level where she can make a difference in a game that really, really matters. Of course, she's only called one playoff game to this point. Give her time.

[T Park]

Its suprising Clark isn't in the championship rotation.

This year though with Crawford being done, he might get moved up.

[T Park]

And timvp's right -- Violet was not on my list of those I'd kick off the island mostly because she hasn't yet reached a level where she can make a difference in a game that really, really matters. Of course, she's only called one playoff game to this point. Give her time.

Game vs Nuggets

Callahan
Kirkland
Palmer

:lol

[T Park]

One of the quiet ones thats trying to overtake Palmer for worst, is Zilenski (spelling)

Hes one of the most clueless and swayable refs I've ever seen.

[FromWayDowntown]

Its suprising Clark isn't in the championship rotation.

Not to me. I'd be quite surprised if he's the guy who's elevated into that group. Actually, I think the group will actually be pretty static this year from last year. I was surprised to find out that Ron Garretson didn't do any Finals games last year -- first time in 8 years that he didn't make the Finals group. I think Garretson will be the one elevated if everything else stays the same. I also suspect that Nies will be dropped from the Finals group as well, but I'd expect that a younger official like Stafford, Washington, or Willard will be the one elevated in that case.

[FromWayDowntown]

One of the quiet ones thats trying to overtake Palmer for worst, is Zilenski (spelling)

Hes one of the most clueless and swayable refs I've ever seen.

Yeah, Gary Zielinski is pretty bad. He has a remarkable knack for calling things that never happened.

[Kobulingam]

Yeah, Callahan is a good one.

Of recent years, I thought Ronnie Nunn and Blane Reichelt were too of the better refs.

That's why Nunn is the boss of the Refs now.

[timvp]

As long as we are talking bad refs, we should mention Ron Garretson. If Daddy wasn't one of the best ever, Ron would have been fired a long time ago.

Another Dick Bavetta story -- after the Spurs lost game three of the 1999 Finals, I remember the rallying cry for the Spurs being that they got Knick Bavetta out of the way and that is was then time to get down to business :lol

[T Park]

can't say that I've paid much attention to Willard or Washinton.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Jim Clark sucks :td

[T Park]

Another Dick Bavetta story -- after the Spurs lost game three of the 1999 Finals, I remember the rallying cry for the Spurs being that they got Knick Bavetta out of the way and that is was then time to get down to business

:lol

I remember that as well.

Some of the calls Bavetta made were just horrible.

Heck I remember Bob Costas even saying "Some of these calls have been a tad off"

[FromWayDowntown]

can't say that I've paid much attention to Willard or Washinton.

I'm not saying that either is particularly good, though I think Willard is generally fairly consistent. I'm just noting that those guys have been working the Conference Finals round for several years now and are among the younger, up-and-coming officials who seem more likely to provide new blood to the Finals group.

[T Park]

He may suck. I always look for consistency.

And hes consistent in his calls alot of the time.

[whottt]

I still say Bavetta is the worst....because he somehow winds up in the pivotal games time and time again....

I feel sorry for teams that have Bavetta reffing big games.

[FromWayDowntown]

He may suck. I always look for consistency.

And hes consistent in his calls alot of the time.

I'd have to disagree with you about that as well.

[timvp]

Bennett Salvatore has taken the "Whistle while you work" idea a bit far. Game 1's 72-foul explosion was no surprise to those in the know: Since the second round began, there have been four playoff games with 57 or more fouls, and ol' B.S. worked all of them. His games have averaged 58 fouls -- the most in any other game is 56. Please, David Stern, stop the madness.

:lol

You'd think the NBA could crunch its own stats and start eliminating officials that stand way out from the norm. When BS refs a game, stats show that the team with the better free throw percentage usually wins. And it's been like that for years now.

[T Park]

How many salvatore reffed playoff games did the spurs do :lol

[picnroll]

Anywhere where there's stats on Spurs playoff games since '99 and wins - losses for the Spurs and who reffed?

[timvp]

Spurs versus the Mavs last year in the playoffs, the Spurs lost Game 2 with Steve Javie, Game 3 with Joey Crawford, Game 4 with Knick Bavetta and Game 7 with Javie and Bavetta :lol

Javie might be the ref most likely to hold a grudge because of this Crawford situation. Not only does Javie hate David Robinson, he lists Joey Crawford as his mentor.

I think the only San Antonian who loves Javie is T Park.

[spurtime]

Anywhere where there's stats on Spurs playoff games since '99 and wins - losses for the Spurs and who reffed?

Yes...I saw one going into the playoffs last season...I'll see if I can find it for you.

[T Park]

I don't love him.

But hes fair.

He doesn't blow any more calls than Jim Clark, Monty friggen McCutcheon, or Greg Willard.

My all time favorite ref though was Blaine Reichelt, 1, he was VERY fair. 2, that hair sometimes was out of control :lol

[whottt]

Spurs versus the Mavs last year in the playoffs, the Spurs lost Game 2 with Steve Javie, Game 3 with Joey Crawford, Game 4 with Knick Bavetta and Game 7 with Javie and Bavetta :lol

Javie might be the ref most likely to hold a grudge because of this Crawford situation. Not only does Javie hate David Robinson, he lists Joey Crawford as his mentor.

I think the only San Antonian who loves Javie is T Park.


I don't think Javie's a bad ref.

Quick whistle does not = a bad ref.

[T Park]

Javie whenever hes miked, also explains his calls to the coaches the best.

I can remember in 02 against the Lakers, when Bowen go a T, he went right over to Pop and explained "George got a T for the same move with the elbow, and I had to call it."

I had a tremendous amount of respect for him after that game

[picnroll]

In terms of incompetence Salvatorre has to top the list. Hell, even Palmer has to clean up his messes sometimes strightening out his calls. How he has attained finals reffing status is way beyond me.

[timvp]

I don't think Javie's a bad ref.

I always knew you were a closet DRob hater.

[T Park]

Yeah Javie's thing against Robinson was always puzzling.

[whottt]

I always knew you were a closet DRob hater.


Why, did I make a post saying AJ lead us to the title or something? Crap...not my day.




I didn't say I liked Javie...I just don't think he's a bad ref. I still don't think Crawford is a particularly bad ref...I don't get a sickening feeling when I see hm reffing Spurs Games.

[timvp]

Why, did I make a post saying AJ lead us to the title or something? Crap...not my day.




I didn't say I liked Javie...I just don't think he's a bad ref. I still don't think Crawford is a particularly bad ref...I don't get a sickening feeling when I see hm reffing Spurs Games.

Whatever, hater. For a supposed DRob fan, siding with Javie is like siding with a Karl Malone elbow.

Took a while, but all DRob haters expose themselves after a while.

:smokin

[mavsfan1000]

With Joey suspended, Danny Crawford is the best, hands down.
Fuck Danny Crawford. Worst official of all-time.

[T Park]

:lmao

[whottt]

Yawn...that's like saying I hate Tim Duncan because I don't think Crawford is a shitty ref....


Get back to me after we get a nice healthy dose of Bavetta and Salvtore...then you'll get it.

[Tek_XX]

Isn't Bavetta rep that he likes to help the home team?

I think Javie is considered by most (outside spurstalk) the best ref.

[RonMexico]

I always liked Joey Crawford - that was ridiculous, though. He's still a little hot-headed two days later. Like last year when he threw Haslem out for throwing a mouthpiece near him.

Secondly, I'm not a big fan of Javie's decisions out there, but he does have a pretty good personality when he's miked up.

Bavetta has grown on me as a character over the past year... off the court. On the court, his "character" can grow pretty thin.

Nies... gahahklhglkjda

That's it for now - I have no mental capacity left.

[timvp]

http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/maloneelbowsrobinson.jpg

:tu

[schadenfreude52]

I kinda like Javie...

I was alright with Crawford until Sunday. Then he became a huge douche.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

He may suck. I always look for consistency.

And hes consistent in his calls alot of the time.

Yeah, consistently shitty :lmao

[T Park]

Yeah, consistently shitty

I disagree.

Hes consistent in how he interprets the game, and hes fair across the board to both teams.

[DaMavs02]

As a Mavs fan, I'd also like to voice my disapproval of Dan Crawford.

I think in playoff games over the past 5 or 6 years, the Mavs have a horrendous record when he's on the crew. I think it was 0-11 before last year's playoffs, and they maybe bumped it up to 2-13 or something. Given that the Mavs have won a decent percent of playoff games, it seems off enough to look into.

-edit-
Sports betting sites do keep track of some refereeing statistics. Joey Crawford is pretty neutral against the spread overall. Dan Crawford on the year only has the home team outscoring the road team by .3 points, where normal expectations are closer to 3 points.

[picnroll]

Mavsfan want Slavatorre to ref everyone of their games. A guy who likes hard nosed play like Dan Crawford is definitely not good for the flailing fraulein.

[polandprzem]

so, who is the best ref in the game?
Danny Crawford

[siopaoboi]

violet palmer!!! she's so biased and roots for the lakers silently. hate her to death.

[timvp]

Salvatore led crews call the most fouls. Dan Crawford led crews call the least fouls.

It's understandable why the Mavs play better with Salvatore and the Spurs play better with Crawford. Spurs got D. Crawford in Game 1 last year against the Mavs and that was the one game where Dirk didn't go buck wild from the free throw line.

Not a coincidence.

[timvp]

Crawford also blasted fellow referee Dick Bavetta in the e-mail obtained by ESPN.com, hinting at divisions among referees between those who do and don't support Bavetta and writing that maybe Bavetta will wind up as the crew chief in Game 7 of the NBA "which is a travesty in itself you even being in the finals."

From what I just heard, the Joey Crawford/Dick Bavetta feud started when Crawford went on record with the league stating that refs can no longer do a sufficient job after the age of 60, and that a mandatory maximum age should be instituted.

Can't say I disagree with Joey on that point.

[SPARKY]

Fuck the refs. The league needs new blood. Some of those bastards have been around longer than more than a few franchises.

[LakerLanny]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Joey worked as the crew chief in many critical playoff games that ultimately decided the championship.

And as much as I like Danny Crawford, I wonder what Joey would have done in that 0.4 game. He has the type of personality that might have disallowed that shot. I wonder what Joey thought about the 0.4.

You h0m0

Still complaining about that! The shot counted, DEAL WITH IT.

No team gets more calls and complains more then the *purs.

Now apparently Tissue Timmy can manipulate the league office too.

[picnroll]

Up late LakerLanny. Racking your little Laker brain trying to figure out a new member for your circle?

[aaronstampler]

A more disturbing headline would be "Joey Goes Out Swinging With Bavetta."

[slayermin]

You h0m0

Still complaining about that! The shot counted, DEAL WITH IT.

No team gets more calls and complains more then the *purs.

Now apparently Tissue Timmy can manipulate the league office too.

Like you and your vendetta against Joey Crawford. He is one of the best refs the game has ever seen. He probably went a little overboard Sunday but that's the way he is. TD and Pop should have let that go because he calls a fair game. You hate him because he doesn't buy into all that purple and gold BS.

And you You keeping bringing up that '04 debacle. It was a LAKER debacle, not Joey Crawford.

*Newsflash*

THE PISTONS WERE THE BEST TEAM THAT YEAR!

Maybe if Malone was 100% and Kobe wasn't slinging 22 feet turnaround jumpers against double and triple teams, you guys force a game seven.

[slayermin]

I compiled referee playoff won-loss records since 2001. I haven't been able to locate boxscores prior to 2001 yet.

Here are won-loss records for the referees that have worked at least 10 of our playoff games from 2001 through the 2006 playoffs.

1. Joe Crawford 10-3 .769
2. Dan Crawford 13-4 .765
3. Dick Bavetta 12-5 .706
4. Derrick Stafford 7-3 .700
5. Bob Delaney 9-4 . 692
6. Steve Javie 8-5 .615
7. Joe DeRosa 6-4 .600
8. Mike Callahan 8-6 .571
9. Ron Garretson 8-7 .533
10. Bernie Fryer 8-8 .500
11. Jack Nies 6-6 .500
12. Bennett Salvatore 6-10 .375
13. Eddie F. Rush 4-11 .267

Maybe we have been a little hard on old Dick, no pun intended.

[exstatic]

I don't think its feasible to think that Crawford is singularly responsible for protecting against pushing big market teams through -- he could only work one game of any particular series (other than maybe the NBA Finals) and the other guys could combine to officiate as many as 3 games in a series. I'd agree that Joey generally came off as more on the up-and-up than Bavetta (a notorious game manipulator), Rush (famous for asking the official scorer during a timeout how many fouls Shaq had), and Salvatore (the king of the FT shooting contest). But I also think that there are a number of other officials in the league who don't feel an obligation to favor teams or to manipulate games -- top-level officials like Bob Delaney, Dan Crawford, and Mike Callahan.

Like I say, though, I think if there is any truth to the conspiracy talk, as slayer intimates, the proof of that is most likely to come from a guy like Joey Crawford.
I thought about that, too. For Joey to "out" the NBA, he'd have to admit to criminal activity.

[50 cent]

Monty McCutcheon is one of my favorites. The guy is generally correct and he seems to really like the Spurs.

Dan Crawford is the most fair and keeps his emotions out of the game.

Dick the Knick is a joke, but I kinda like the old fart.

Javie has a good personality though he tends to sometimes think he is bigger than the game.

Bennett Salvatore is by the worst ref in the league. Not even close. When I see him out there against the Spursin the playoffs, I pretty much assume a loss.

[FromWayDowntown]

1. Joe Crawford 10-3 .769
2. Dan Crawford 13-4 .765
3. Dick Bavetta 12-5 .706
4. Derrick Stafford 7-3 .700
5. Bob Delaney 9-4 . 692
6. Steve Javie 8-5 .615
7. Joe DeRosa 6-4 .600
8. Mike Callahan 8-6 .571
9. Ron Garretson 8-7 .533
10. Bernie Fryer 8-8 .500
11. Jack Nies 6-6 .500
12. Bennett Salvatore 6-10 .375
13. Eddie F. Rush 4-11 .267

Can't vouch that my numbers are 100% accurate, because I probably did my compilation too quickly, but going back through the 1998 playoffs, I get the following numbers for those officials:


D. Crawford 16-6 (.727)
J. Crawford 13-5 (.722)
Javie 11-5 (.688)
Delaney 11-5 (.687)
Bavetta 14-8 (.636)
Garretson 12-7 (.632)
Nies 9-7 (.563)
Derosa 6-5 (.545)
Fryer 10-9 (.526)
Salvatore 10-11 (.476)
Rush 5-12 (.294)

Edit: I forgot to add in Stafford's games. Will do that later. I also think that going back that far adds some other officials into the mix -- specifically, I think Bill Spooner has done at least 10 Spurs playoff games in that span.

[ducks]

crawford could be so pissed he does an interview and calls out all bad refs the nba has not said publically

[grjr]

I'd like to see the record of all Spurs games reffed by Nies since Timmy bowled him over. Although, to be fair, I haven't noticed any egregious stuff from him this year as compared to previous years.

[slayermin]

Can't vouch that my numbers are 100% accurate, because I probably did my compilation too quickly, but going back through the 1998 playoffs, I get the following numbers for those officials:


D. Crawford 16-6 (.727)
J. Crawford 13-5 (.722)
Javie 11-5 (.688)
Delaney 11-5 (.687)
Bavetta 14-8 (.636)
Garretson 12-7 (.632)
Nies 9-7 (.563)
Derosa 6-5 (.545)
Fryer 10-9 (.526)
Salvatore 10-11 (.476)
Rush 5-12 (.294)

Edit: I forgot to add in Stafford's games. Will do that later. I also think that going back that far adds some other officials into the mix -- specifically, I think Bill Spooner has done at least 10 Spurs playoff games in that span.

I had Spooner at 4-4 between 2001 and 2006. Where did you find the playoff boxscores prior to 2001?

I will reiterate my reservations about seeing Eddie F. Rush working one our games. What the hell was he watching out there?

[mavsfan1000]

Go Eddie F. Rush. lol

[Sec24Row7]

LoL... Eddie Rush... that's pretty rediculous...

[50 cent]

Go Eddie F. Rush. lol
Nah, we'll take Danny Crawford.

[Bob Lanier]

With Joey suspended, Danny Crawford is the best, hands down.
Dan Crawford is a third-rate hack who is as biased as anyone mentioned in this thread.

But, he does like the Spurs.

[FromWayDowntown]

I had Spooner at 4-4 between 2001 and 2006. Where did you find the playoff boxscores prior to 2001?

Being the nerd that I am, I have notebooks filled with every boxscore for every Spurs playoff game ever played.

[ggoose25]

Being the nerd that I am, I have notebooks filled with every boxscore for every Spurs playoff game ever played.

or maybe just a bookie? :greedy

[Rummpd]

No love for the "Violet" - only joking!

[FromWayDowntown]

or maybe just a bookie? :greedy

If I am, I'm not sure what good a bunch of boxscores from the 70's or early 80's would do me. I'd probably be a pretty misinformed bookie.

[Big P]

You h0m0

Still complaining about that! The shot counted, DEAL WITH IT.

No team gets more calls and complains more then the *purs.

Now apparently Tissue Timmy can manipulate the league office too.

Good luck with Kobe trying to win a championship without Shaq. The Lakers are done.

[Samr]

The good news is I've been impressed by the new breed of official. The younger generation is much more business like and stay in the background.

If you know a ref by name, or more specifically if you refer to a ref by his last name only, he is a bad ref.

I don't want to know the officials. I don't care about the officials. If they make me make a comment about them, they are already not doing their job.

[2centsworth]

I'm happy that Eddie Rush is being mentioned. The guy is horrible. I noticed the guy was clueless dating back to game 1 against Phoenix in '03.

Top 3 to ship away:

1. Benette Salvatore
2. Eddie Rush
3. Steve Javie, though I thought he did an excellent job in game 7 against the Mavs last year.

Best Ref is easily Danny Crawford. I like refs who let teams play.

[FromWayDowntown]

If you know a ref by name, or more specifically if you refer to a ref by his last name only, he is a bad ref.

I don't want to know the officials. I don't care about the officials. If they make me make a comment about them, they are already not doing their job.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think a lot of NBA fans came to know who the referees were a while back, mostly because of the perceived bias or incompetence of those officials. I know that my interest in learning who the officials are really grew out of the David Robinson/Steve Javie fiasco during the 1996 Playoffs, when David threw the same sorts of bombs at Javie that Tim threw at Joey on Sunday afternoon.

Having taken some time to know who the officials are, I can say that I know them by name not because they're all bad. I know them by name and have learned who is good and who is not.

I suspect that others who've posted in this thread have come to their knowledge of the officials through similar experiences.

[nkdlunch]

the best ref is that guy that is been a ref for a long time but you can't remember his name.

if you can remember his name, he's probably not a good ref!!!!

[2centsworth]

the best ref is that guy that is been a ref for a long time but you can't remember his name.

if you can remember his name, he's probably not a good ref!!!!
there's a lot of truth to that.

[ALVAREZ6]

Bavetta's another shitty ref, I can't stand that fucker, he soley costed the Spurs a fucking championship. And he's old as fuck.

[degenerate_gambler]

Bavetta's another shitty ref, I can't stand that fucker, he soley costed the Spurs a fucking championship. And he's old as fuck.


and he kisses other men on the mouth.. :ihit

[ArgSpursFan]

fuck Joe Crawford.He took away a big chance to reach the suns that night.And I really think he did it on porpose.he knew that by doing that,the spurs we losing their best player,and the whole team played deferent after that.BTW that offensive foul He called on Oberto when He was screaning josh Howard was crusial too.

[slayermin]

fuck Joe Crawford.He took away a big chance to reach the suns that night.And I really think he did it on porpose.he knew that by doing that,the spurs we losing their best player,and the whole team played deferent after that.BTW that offensive foul He called on Oberto when He was screaning josh Howard was crusial too.

Yeah, he is so biased against the Spurs that we are 13-5 in playoff games he has reffed since TD entered the league.

Even though the Clippers won last night, I think Phoenix would have won one or both of their last two games if they needed to. I guess we will never know but a 13-5 playoff record cannot be ignored.

[exstatic]

Yeah, he is so biased against the Spurs that we are 16-6 in playoff games he has reffed since TD entered the league.

Even though the Clippers won last night, I think Phoenix would have won one or both of their last two games if they needed to. I guess we will never know but a 16-6 playoff record cannot be ignored.
Phoenix played their starters over 30 minutes in both games. They lost by 3 and by 4, but keep believing they weren't trying to win them.

[slayermin]

Phoenix played their starters over 30 minutes in both games. They lost by 3 and by 4, but keep believing they weren't trying to win them.

I guarantee they didn't give their best effort. But we will never know.

[exstatic]

I guarantee they didn't give their best effort. But we will never know.
Nash played 38 against the Rox. They WANTED that game, for some strange reason. D'Antoni is an idiot. Then, Nash played 32 against the Clips.

[T Park]

Thats fine.

Just makes em more tired for a potential spurs suns series.

if the spurs can get by the damn nuggets.

[bonesinaz]

Yeah, he is so biased against the Spurs that we are 16-6 in playoff games he has reffed since TD entered the league.

Even though the Clippers won last night, I think Phoenix would have won one or both of their last two games if they needed to. I guess we will never know but a 16-6 playoff record cannot be ignored.


I don't agree that Phx would have won. They were trying to win last night and their starters were on the floor at the end of the game. D'antoni is nuts. If Nash would have rolled an ankle, the suns would be in trouble in the first round.

[bonesinaz]

Nash played 38 against the Rox. They WANTED that game, for some strange reason. D'Antoni is an idiot. Then, Nash played 32 against the Clips.


I saw the game against the clips and the homer Phx announcers said that the team wanted to tie their best regular season record. They also wanted Raja Bell to be first in the league in made 3's. So they let him jack up a bunch of them in the 4th and he couldn't hit. D'Antoni also kept the starters in and they still lost. Unbelievable. I really think that Phx also wanted to prove that they were the 'true' #2.

[ArgSpursFan]

Yeah, he is so biased against the Spurs that we are 13-5 in playoff games he has reffed since TD entered the league.

Even though the Clippers won last night, I think Phoenix would have won one or both of their last two games if they needed to. I guess we will never know but a 13-5 playoff record cannot be ignored.

So,you think Crawford has something to do with the spurs record in playoffs??The spurs have one of the best playoffs record in the league cause of the players and the coaching they have.
Maybe He realized that He had to reject Tim and call ofensive fouls when they weren´t (read Oberto´s offensive foul againts Howard)in order to screw the spurs.And Now he is paying for it.I hope He retires from the NBA,there are some real good young talented refs right now.