After arguing all season that Dirk is the MVP

[Spurminator]

I've changed my mind. Thinking about it, it seems like every argument I've heard (or made) for Dirk being the MVP is actually an argument for Avery Johnson being Coach of the Year.

And at the same time I was arguing for Van Gundy being Coach of the Year, I realized that Tracy McGrady deserves equal, if not more, credit for leading the Rockets to home court in the first round (in the WEST) with Yao Ming missing half of the season.

Kobe got a lot of credit in the first half of the season for being a team player with the Lakers, but McGrady has had even less to work with. With Yao out, he's playing most of his minutes with the likes of Chuck Hayes, Shane Battier, Rafer Alston and Dikembe Mutumbo.

I think what McGrady has done has been criminally overlooked this year.

Dirk will probably win, and I don't think he's necessarily undeserving, but he strikes me as a classic example of the lazy "best player on the best team" pick, and I've always hated that.

So my picks are Avery for COTY and TMac for MVP.

[mardigan]

T-Mac should win it, no question in my mind

[Medvedenko]

Chuck Hayes, Shane Battier, Rafer Alston and Dikembe Mutumbo

That's still better than what Kobe had to work with.....still Tmac has done an admirable job this year.

[mardigan]

That's still better than what Kobe had to work with.....still Tmac has done an admirable job this year.
I dont know about that. A undrafted free agent, 40 plus year old center, and a ex-And 1 baller. Batteir is the only good one

[mavsfan1000]

That's still better than what Kobe had to work with.
Lmao. Kobe has Odom and Walton. That is better than those players mentioned for T-Mac. With Yao back though has made a world of difference. T-Mac though isn't the MVP but not far off. He's too streaky.

[Spurminator]

For one thing, it's not better than what Kobe had to work with, and for another thing Kobe's team barely made the Playoffs while TMac has home court.

[mardigan]

For one thing, it's not better than what Kobe had to work with, and for another thing Kobe's team barely made the Playoffs while TMac has home court.
The only thing I will say in Kobes defense is that he didnt have a caliber of player in Yao that Tracy had. But, also with that said, Yao missed over 30 games and T-Mac was still ballin enough to get his team over 50 wins

[Medvedenko]

The lakers have lost more games due to injury by far than all other teams in the playoffs. Yao missed games for sure...but Walton, Kwame, Mihm, and Odom all missed over 20 games a piece. Not to mention bench contributors like Vlad Rad, Mo Evans, and Turiaf. Houston has a better team overall without Yao and with Yao.

[mavsfan1000]

The lakers have lost more games due to injury by far than all other teams in the playoffs. Yao missed games for sure...but Walton, Kwame, Mihm, and Odom all missed over 20 games a piece. Not to mention bench contributors like Vlad Rad, Mo Evans, and Turiaf. Houston has a better team overall without Yao and with Yao.
The fact that you think all the players mean something to you shows that Lakers aren't that weak. If they were weak than those scrubs would hardly be missed. The Lakers are a good team when healthy. Better than the Rockets without Yao.

[Cry Havoc]

The Lakers aren't a lot better than the Rockets without Yao, but Odom is an all-star caliber SF and the Rockets have no one that even approaches that quality outside of T-mac. I'd take the Lakers in 7 over the Rocks minus Ming.

[Medvedenko]

A MVP candidate that averages 7 less points than kobe and less rebounds. He does hold an edge of 1 assist per game more. Plus he shoots 43% field 70% from the stripe and only plays in 35min per game. you're telling me that he should be put ahead Kobe. Please.

[mardigan]

Yao>>>>Odom, Vlad, Brown, Walton
Bottom line is T-mac held a shit team together and got them top 50 wins while Kobe barely got his team 40 wins

[Spurminator]

A MVP candidate that averages 7 less points than kobe and less rebounds. He does hold an edge of 1 assist per game more. Plus he shoots 43% field 70% from the stripe and only plays in 35min per game. you're telling me that he should be put ahead Kobe. Please.


Home court. Chuck Hayes. End of thread.

[ponky]

ask t-mac's back to try and be there for at least 7-8 of those 11 games he missed this season and i'll give him more credit (the other 2-3 were for personal reasons), nine losses in games in which he was out due to injuries. it's not like yao was out the entire season, he was out 34 games...rockets won 32 of those 52 games with yao in the lineup and another two games with t-mac not playing so can't give him credit for those...so he basically played without yao in 18 rocket wins this season. just because he beat the spurs without yao does not make him an mvp.

[Spurminator]

The 11 games missed are worth considering, but I don't think it's enough to penalize him.

The Mavs are a great team. Dirk is certainly their best player, but the heart and soul of that team is Avery.

Kobe may very well be a better player than TMac, but his team nearly missed the Playoffs.

I just think McGrady has the perfect balance of team success and his team's dependence on him.

[mavsfan1000]

The 11 games missed are worth considering, but I don't think it's enough to penalize him.
.
:lol

[Medvedenko]

What part don't you understand.....Kobe played in a season with a team that was injured.....and Tmac only won 10 more games than Kobe....you should be praising Kobe not Tmac, especially when his stats were nothing to write home about.

[Spurminator]

Kobe only won 10 more games than Portland.

[Spurminator]

:lol

Srsly?

[Medvedenko]

Games Lost Due to Injuries - Top 6 Players In Minutes

1. Los Angeles Lakers - 178 Games; 42 Wins (including Chris Mihm. 82 Games)
2. Denver Nuggets - 135 Games; 45 Wins (including Kenyon Martin, 80 Games)
3. Miami Heat - 103 Games; 44 Wins (Not including Eddie Jones)
4. New Jersey Nets - 87 Games; 41 Wins
5. Golden State Warriors - 74 Games; 42 Wins
6. Toronto Raptors - 61 Games; 47 Wins
7. Detroit Pistons - 49 Games; 53 Wins (Not including Chris Webber)
8. Orlando Magic - 48 Games; 40 Wins
9. Houston Rockets - 47 Games; 52 Wins
10. Washington Wizards - 46 Games; 41 Wins
11. Dallas Mavericks - 41 Games; 67 Wins
12. Chicago Bulls - 40 Games; 49 Wins
13. Utah Jazz - 29 Games; 51 Wins
14. Phoenix Suns - 23 Games; 61 Wins
15. Cleveland Cavs - 22 Games; 50 Wins
16. San Antonio Spurs - 18 Games; 58 Wins

Games Lost Due to Injuries - Top 10 Players In Minutes

1. Los Angeles Lakers - 225 Games; 42 Wins
2. Denver Nuggets - 182 Games; 45 Wins
3. New Jersey Nets - 169 Games; 41 Wins
4. Miami Heat - 143 Games; 44 Wins
5. Washington Wizards - 135 Games; 41 Wins
6. Houston Rockets - 133 Games; 52 Wins (including Bonzi Wells, 54 Games)
7. Orlando Magic - 132 Games; 40 Wins
8. Detroit Pistons - 121 Games; 53 Wins
9. Dallas Mavericks - 110 Games; 67 Wins
10. Toronto Raptors - 98 Games; 50 Wins
11. Chicago Bulls - 96 Games; 49 Wins
12. Golden State Warriors - 88 Games; 42 Wins
13. Phoenix Suns - 82 Games; 61 Wins (not including Jalen Rose)
14. Cleveland Cavs - 81 Games; 50 Wins
15. Utah Jazz - 75 Games; 51 Wins
16. San Antonio Spurs - 55 Games; 58 Wins

Here's the figures I posted on another thread....look at the disparity between the lakers and houston....yes, TMac carried his team full of scrubs, while shooting 43% and only scoring 24pgs per game. What an awesome season indeed.

[mardigan]

Here's the figures I posted on another thread....look at the disparity between the lakers and houston....yes, TMac carried his team full of scrubs, while shooting 43% and only scoring 24pgs per game. What an awesome season indeed.
yea dude, but almost half the Lakers games missed where because of Mihm, and that guys sucks balls. Take him away and they still have more but the difference isnt as huge

[Medvedenko]

Mihm sucks balls eh...well he'd be our starter as he was last season. What does that tell you about Kwame and the kid....not as good as Mihm. Chris was playing very effectively in the tri last season prior to the injury. Also losing your second stringer to injuries (Kwame) hurt while playing 2 front court rooks heavy minutes in the West.

[mardigan]

Mihm sucks balls eh...well he'd be our starter as he was last season. What does that tell you about Kwame and the kid....not as good as Mihm. Chris was playing very effectively in the tri last season prior to the injury. Also losing your second stringer to injuries (Kwame) hurt while playing 2 front court rooks heavy minutes in the West.
Dude Im not arguing that the injuries didnt decimate the Lakers, they did. They looked really good before everyone got hurt. All Im saying is that Yao is a bigger loss to a team that doesnt have the depth the Lakers have. When you have to start Juwan Howard and Mutumbo your team isnt very good, yet somehow they played well as a team. And I dont mean to bag on Chris, but Ive been watching him since I was living in Austin watching him suck for the Horns, and it just doesnt look like he will ever be a decent starting center. I love all things UT so it pains me to say that

[nsrammstein]

Dirk deserves the MVP because he makes his teammates better and has led the mavs to a 67-14 record with only one more all star. Anyone ever wonder why Terry's FG% has gone way up since coming to Dallas? That's because he runs the pick & roll with Dirk and most times both defenders stay with dirk giving Terry an open pull up jumper. He has made Josh Howard better the same way too. You don't win 67 beacuse of luck people you win 67 by executing a game plan and having a clutch go to player that is Dirk Nowitzki. Without Dirk the Mavs would put a front line consisting of Croshere and Diop/Dampier do you all think that they would double croshere and leave Terry open? I don't think so. Now with that being said I think Avery Johnson should win the COY and Dirk should win the MVP.

[Medvedenko]

Juwan and Mutumbo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Turiaf, cook, bynum
Rafer>>>>>>>Smush
Tmac>>>>>>

[Medvedenko]

KG>Dirk.
Dirk teammates>>>Kg's Teammates

Nuff said.

[mardigan]

I cant believe that you just said that Howard and Mutumbo are better than Bynum

[mavsfan1000]

Juwan and Mutumbo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Turiaf, cook, bynum
Rafer>>>>>>>Smush
Tmac>>>>>>
Howard and Mutombo suck now. Mutombo occasionally has a solid defensive game but he is too old. Rafer is slightly ahead of Smush but I wouldn't go that far. Stop being such a Kobe homer. Give some of the other players on your team credit.

[Medvedenko]

I would give my team credit if they weren't injured for 200+ games. They've had their starting line up what....16 times this year. Please, don't bring up Tmac, Dwade, etc...Dirk will win because he's the best player on the best team. I like the college award of MOP....better. That's usually indicative of the best player.

[monosylab1k]

saying that the Lakers were hurt by injuries doesn't in any way mean that those injured players don't still totally suck. It has everything to do with chemistry....the Lakers have had ZERO chance to develop any sort of chemistry...even if it's a team of shit players, they can at least perform menial tasks propery with time to work together. It seems like every time the Lakers were about to get some chemistry going, another player would go down with an injury. Say what you want about Kobe not working with his teammates, but he also hasn't had time to develop any on-court chemistry with them, nor they with each other. Kobe's far ahead of T-Mac in MVP discussion. T-Mac has a much better team even without Yao, and honestly i've just never been a big T-Mac fan and think he's alot closer to Vince Carter's level than Kobe's. T-Mac = Vince Carter with a good attitude, not much more.

[mavsfan1000]

saying that the Lakers were hurt by injuries doesn't in any way mean that those injured players don't still totally suck. It has everything to do with chemistry....the Lakers have had ZERO chance to develop any sort of chemistry...even if it's a team of shit players, they can at least perform menial tasks propery with time to work together. It seems like every time the Lakers were about to get some chemistry going, another player would go down with an injury. Say what you want about Kobe not working with his teammates, but he also hasn't had time to develop any on-court chemistry with them, nor they with each other. Kobe's far ahead of T-Mac in MVP discussion. T-Mac has a much better team even without Yao, and honestly i've just never been a big T-Mac fan and think he's alot closer to Vince Carter's level than Kobe's. T-Mac = Vince Carter with a good attitude, not much more.
:pctoss T-Mac is way better than Vince Carter. You've got to be kidding me. I've experienced it first hand when T-Mac almost single handedly took Houston past Dallas in the first round a couple years ago.

[monosylab1k]

:pctoss T-Mac is way better than Vince Carter. You've got to be kidding me. I've experienced it first hand when T-Mac almost single handedly took Houston past Dallas in the first round a couple years ago.

key word being almost. i'll have a little more respect for him when he makes it out of the first round. VC at least has done that. And when Carter gives a shit, he is better than T-Mac. He just rarely gives a shit.

[mavsfan1000]

key word being almost. i'll have a little more respect for him when he makes it out of the first round. VC at least has done that. And when Carter gives a shit, he is better than T-Mac. He just rarely gives a shit.
Well the Rockets had no business winning that series as the mavs were clearly the superior team. I'm giving T-Mac his props for making the mavs sweat big time. I would give Kobe and Wade the slight advantage but T-Mac is way ahead of Carter. Congrats on Carter winning a slam dunk contest though.

[NBA Junkie]

Mihm would have done nothing to improve the Lakers win total.

[Roxsfan]

ask t-mac's back to try and be there for at least 7-8 of those 11 games he missed this season and i'll give him more credit (the other 2-3 were for personal reasons), nine losses in games in which he was out due to injuries. it's not like yao was out the entire season, he was out 34 games...rockets won 32 of those 52 games with yao in the lineup and another two games with t-mac not playing so can't give him credit for those...so he basically played without yao in 18 rocket wins this season. just because he beat the spurs without yao does not make him an mvp.

32 games

who cares it takes 5 anyway

How do you think the spurs or mavs would have fared without td or dirk respectively for 32 games?

[mardigan]

32 games

who cares it takes 5 anyway

How do you think the spurs or mavs would have fared without td or dirk respectively for 32 games?
Not well

[monosylab1k]

How do you think the spurs or mavs would have fared without td or dirk respectively for 32 games?

alot better than the rockets if their second best player was tracy mcgrady-level.

[Shank]

Why is there an argument over something that won't happen, ie TMac as MVP?

[Roxsfan]

alot better than the rockets if their second best player was tracy mcgrady-level.

i did not ask. :nope ..............IF their second best player was tracy mcgrady-level, how would tim's spurs or dirk's mavs fare if they missed 32 games :rolleyes


I asked:
How do you think the spurs or mavs would have fared without td or dirk respectively for 32 games? :clap

[mavsfan1000]

A better example is how the mavs would do 32 games without Josh Howard and the spurs Manu Ginobili. I'd say about 55 wins for mavs and 50 wins for the spurs.

[monosylab1k]

i did not ask. :nope ..............IF their second best player was tracy mcgrady-level, how would tim's spurs or dirk's mavs fare if they missed 32 games :rolleyes


I asked:
How do you think the spurs or mavs would have fared without td or dirk respectively for 32 games? :clap

the fact that you think there's a correlation between the two shows how clueless you are.

[monosylab1k]

you can't even compare the rockets to the Spurs or Mavs....the Rockets have TWO superstar caliber players which means they can theoretically survive the loss of one of their superstars without too many ill effects on the team. If the Spurs had Dwyane Wade or the Mavs had Lebron on their team as well as Duncan and Dirk, then there can be a comparison. It would certainly suck if they lost one, but it still means that have somebody capable of carrying the team all season without the other. The Rockets have that insurance, the Mavs and Spurs don't.

And even still, the Mavs and Spurs are still playoff teams if Dirk or Duncan were gone for as long as Yao was gone.

[Roxsfan]

A better example is how the mavs would do 32 games without Josh Howard and the spurs Manu Ginobili. I'd say about 55 wins for mavs and 50 wins for the spurs.

that's a joke :clap :nope

[mavsfan1000]

If you think Yao=Dirk or Duncan you are crazy. Yao is maybe at the level of Josh Howard and Manu Ginobili.

[monosylab1k]

If you think Yao=Dirk or Duncan you are crazy. Yao is maybe at the level of Josh Howard and Manu Ginobili.

dude just stop posting please.

[mavsfan1000]

dude just stop posting please.
Go kill yourself. :idiot

[Roxsfan]

If you think Yao=Dirk or Duncan you are crazy. Yao is maybe at the level of Josh Howard and Manu Ginobili.

you sir, make me laugh


Now I understand why your keyboard keeps delivering such idiocy :smokin


http://home.mnet-online.de/reger24/fundstuecke-1/intel-inside-idiot-outside.jpg



Main Entry: id·i·o·cy
Pronunciation: 'id-E-&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -cies
: extreme mental retardation commonly due to incomplete or abnormal development of the brain

[Roxsfan]

you can't even compare the rockets to the Spurs or Mavs....the Rockets have TWO superstar caliber players which means they can theoretically survive the loss of one of their superstars without too many ill effects on the team. If the Spurs had Dwyane Wade or the Mavs had Lebron on their team as well as Duncan and Dirk, then there can be a comparison. It would certainly suck if they lost one, but it still means that have somebody capable of carrying the team all season without the other. The Rockets have that insurance, the Mavs and Spurs don't.

And even still, the Mavs and Spurs are still playoff teams if Dirk or Duncan were gone for as long as Yao was gone.


FAIR ENOUGH :toast

[monosylab1k]

Go kill yourself. :idiot

if you're seriously putting Yao at the level of Josh Howard and Manu then i have reason to believe that either you're the biggest idiot on ST or you're a big-time troll like SpursDynasty.

[Phil Hellmuth]

The Lakers are a good team when healthy. Better than the Rockets without Yao.

that is debatable.

[mavsfan1000]

you sir, make me laugh
Now I understand why your keyboard keeps delivering such idiocy :smokin

Do you even watch Josh Howard or Manu Ginobili? They are damn good players. I still see some weaknesses in Yao's game that prevents him from being at that level. Turnovers is the main reason. Also he lets little guys guard him. For example he let Al Harrington (6'8) shut him down.

[mavsfan1000]

if you're seriously putting Yao at the level of Josh Howard and Manu then i have reason to believe that either you're the biggest idiot on ST or you're a big-time troll like SpursDynasty.
Now you're just hating on Yao. Yao was unbelieveable earlier this year. He has yet to get back to that level after the injury but if he does watch out.

[monosylab1k]

Now you're just hating on Yao. Yao was unbelieveable earlier this year. He has yet to get back to that level after the injury but if he does watch out.

you're fucking retarded.

Yao is BETTER than either of those two. FAR better. putting Yao at their level is an insult to Yao. When Yao is on his game he can take over and dominate in a way that Howard and Manu only dream of.

I really don't have time to deal with stupidity at this level. Good night. Make sure your mom reads you Green Eggs and Ham before she tucks you in.

[Roxsfan]

you're fucking retarded.

Yao is BETTER than either of those two. FAR better. putting Yao at their level is an insult to Yao. When Yao is on his game he can take over and dominate in a way that Howard and Manu only dream of.

I really don't have time to deal with stupidity at this level. Good night. Make sure your mom reads you Green Eggs and Ham before she tucks you in.
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :reading :clap :reading :clap

[mavsfan1000]

you're fucking retarded.

Yao is BETTER than either of those two. FAR better. putting Yao at their level is an insult to Yao. When Yao is on his game he can take over and dominate in a way that Howard and Manu only dream of.

I really don't have time to deal with stupidity at this level. Good night. Make sure your mom reads you Green Eggs and Ham before she tucks you in.
Fuck you as well. Your post said Yao was not at their level. Maybe you should read what you type asshole. Btw I do think Yao might be slightly better than both those players. I think you are overrating Yao though. Mcgrady is the main guy in Houston.

[monosylab1k]

Your post said Yao was not at their level. Maybe you should read what you type asshole.

Maybe you should read the context of the discussion, dipshit. If you had, you wouldn't have misread my post to the point where you thought it meant the exact opposite of what I was arguing about the entire time. I had ALREADY stated no more than 5 or 6 posts earlier than Yao was a SUPERSTAR level player. Didn't catch that part, did you? Context clues is something 3rd graders learn, you must have been home sick that day.

[mavsfan1000]

Maybe you should read the context of the discussion, dipshit. If you had, you wouldn't have misread my post to the point where you thought it meant the exact opposite of what I was arguing about the entire time. I had ALREADY stated no more than 5 or 6 posts earlier than Yao was a SUPERSTAR level player. Didn't catch that part, did you? Context clues is something 3rd graders learn, you must have been home sick that day.
Well I didn't have time to read every post dipshit. Yao is not quite a superstar imo. Close but he is too inconsistent to be put in that class. A rockets homer would agree with you though. Mcgrady though is a superstar. He makes that rockets team go. He helps out Yao a ton.

[monosylab1k]

Well I didn't have time to read every post dipshit.

more signature material.

[mavsfan1000]

more signature material.
What was really signature worthy is you thinking Mcgrady is more like Vince Carter than Kobe Bryant. You my friend are the idiot here. I guess I'm supposed to memorize all your post in this topic. If I saw that earlier than I would've made an argument against that.

[monosylab1k]

What was really signature worthy is you thinking Mcgrady is more like Vince Carter than Kobe Bryant. You my friend are the idiot here.

hate to get all Spursfan here but

Kobe - 3
VC & McGrady combined - 0

also...

VC - 2 trips out of the 1st round
McGrady -nothing but 1st round appearances

and see how you're incredibly gay for shooting percentage stats, take a look at McGrady and Carter's shooting percentages....eerily similar.

when Vince Carter cares, then Vince Carter>Tracy McGrady

[monosylab1k]

I guess I'm supposed to memorize all your post in this topic.

no but just reading the ones that are directly a part of whatever discussion is going on would be nice.


If I saw that earlier than I would've made an argument against that.

it's a shame that it was so distantly far away, a whole 6 posts.

[mavsfan1000]

In that case. Devean George 3 titles Dirk 0. Based on your idea Devean George>Dirk. Learn more about basketball before you try to be an internet bad ass.

[monosylab1k]

In that case. Devean George 3 titles Dirk 0. Based on your idea Devean George>Dirk. Learn more about basketball before you try to be an internet bad ass.

i didn't realize that Devean George was at the same superstar level of talent that everyone else in this discussion is at. but if you think Devean George is a superstar then i understand, you've made far more ridiculous statements than that.

[mavsfan1000]

i didn't realize that Devean George was at the same superstar level of talent that everyone else in this discussion is at. but if you think Devean George is a superstar then i understand, you've made far more ridiculous statements than that.
What that Dirk is better than Kobe now or that Shaq was better than Kobe during the championship years? Another thing. If Yao is as great as you say he is how is Houston only slightly better with him record wise? You call Mcgrady Vince Carter but Vince Carter never had to carry a team by himself like Mcgrady did for 32 games. At least not successfully if he did. The results don't go along with your argument. Houston should be a championship contender if Yao is as great as you say he is.

[monosylab1k]

You call Mcgrady Vince Carter but Vince Carter never had to carry a team by himself like Mcgrady did for 32 games. At least not successfully if he did.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2001.html

no, he did it for a whole season.

made it a round further than T-Mac ever has with an aging Antonio Davis as his #2 man.

game-set-match

read up on your history before you try to take me on, kid. Sleep well, I'm out.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah I guess he got away with it in the weak east. Some very poor teams at that time as well as now. I believe they went to a 5th game or 7th game though I might be wrong. Carter had 2 or 3 great years but now Mcgrady is clearly better. Yeah my history of other teams (or me being lazy to look it up) is bad but I know the shit now. Anyways not a fan of Vince Carter. He is too selfish.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

:madrun :madrun :madrun Guys guys guys! Chillax and read what I am about to type....

Grey skies are gonna clear up, sit on a happy face! :) :)