Official SpursTalk Comprehensive Alternative 9/11 Theory Thread

[ChumpDumper]

Please post only full theories. You may use whatever evidence you have or simply feel, guess or speculate; just make sure you account for all four airplanes -- I'm sorry, alledged airplanes -- the collapses of WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7 and a section of the Pentagon building.

One theory that explains it all.

Spell it out for us sheeple.

We're all looking forward to it.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm certainly with you on this issue, CD. But did you really post this during Game 2?

[Phenomanul]

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Halftime.

[FromWayDowntown]

Halftime.

:tu

That's putting the halftime break to a meaningful use.

[ChumpDumper]

Please don't look at the time stamps in the other threads.

[sabar]

I propose linking to "loose change" as an automatic disqualification.

[gtownspur]

I got one....



PFFFFFFFfftttttttttttttt!

Choade Bloatations.

====[}~~~~

Victoria Texas Rawfl Rawfl !!!


Sheeple.

[smeagol]

I know 9/11 is connected to the crop circles; I simply can't find the connection.

[ChumpDumper]

Bumped for dan and mouse, in case they missed it.

[Nbadan]

Let's talk about Payne Stewart’s tragic death and 911.

[sabar]

I know 9/11 is connected to the crop circles; I simply can't find the connection.JFK makes crop circles and Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin's husband's ex-wife's granddaughter flew on Flight 77. The connections are obvious.

[Nbadan]

crop circles are fun, but so are UFOs

UFO 2 Days Before 9/11 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybHc-EbxFbY)

[sabar]

crop circles are fun, but so are UFOs

UFO 2 Days Before 9/11 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybHc-EbxFbY)That UFO leaves a smoke trail.
Aliens burn fossil fuels.
The implications of this will change humanity.

[Nbadan]

That UFO leaves a smoke trail.
Aliens burn fossil fuels.
The implications of this will change humanity.

:lol

So much for anti-gravity machines.

[ChumpDumper]

Please stay on topic.

[RandomGuy]

I propose linking to "loose change" as an automatic disqualification.

That and "infowars.com". Icky. RG=still waiting on clinton's death camps.

[RandomGuy]

That UFO leaves a smoke trail.
Aliens burn fossil fuels.
The implications of this will change humanity.

Actually the trails you see behind jets are actually composed mostly of water vapor.

Unless of course you are a REAL CTer and those constrails are actually CHEMTRAILS (http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html).

There is a whole branch of CT theory that says we are being sprayed with chemicals via high flying jets. (adds spooky conspiracy music)

[mookie2001]

what is the alternative to an alternative theory?, The 911 Commission Report?

[cornbread]

I think the ghost from "3 Men and a Baby" had something to do with it. I have a youtube documentary in the works that will blow the lid off the whole thing and make me famous in the process.
http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/feb01/3men.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

what is the alternative to an alternative theory?, The 911 Commission Report?What is your alternative theory?

[mookie2001]

do you have OCD?

[mookie2001]

Please post only full theoriesin 500 page government form

[ChumpDumper]

No need for that kind of detail. I'll take the broad strokes.

Why are you stalling?

[ChumpDumper]

do you have OCD?Do you have a theory?

[mookie2001]

dude ive told you SEVERAL times, its not that elaborate


you never answered my question

what is the alternative to an alternative theory?

[johnsmith]

what is the alternative to an alternative theory


Reality.

[johnsmith]

not funny. nuggets!


k

[ChumpDumper]

Here's what we've gotten from mookie so far:


I think there were explosives and/or thermite in the building, i dont know who put them there, the floors didnt stack up on top of one other, you can see a yellow white liquid coming out of the towers, its not molten steel, its not molten aluminum, its not office materials, they removed all the steel and destroyed the evidence within two weeks. Flight 93 is a complete mystery because there were no bodies and if you look at the pictures of the crash site, its unlike any plane crash ive ever seen, it looks like they dumped trash in a big hole. Flight 93 was also reported to have landed in cleveland ohio


I think WTC 1, 2, and 7 had bombs inside them, and they collapsed much like controlled demolition, I dont know who put the bombs there. not one of the hijackers' identities has been confirmed, or else 7 of them are alive, and its not proven that the hijackers were members of al queda. Flight 93 is a complete mystery, I do not think a plane hit the pentagon, thats all i know


I would say suspects are al qaeda, terrorist organizationS xy and z, upper levels of any branch of our government, upper levels of the global government, un, world banks

All from this thread:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59300

And even though he think others have done a good job connecting the dots regarding who benefitted from 9/11, he won't get any more specific. I suspect he's merely holding back because, well, I don't really know. It's just a message board. It's probably because I'm a narc.

dan and mouse need to step up and weave together all the disparate and often contradictory theorlets they've been posting.

[mookie2001]

it not specific because i dont know any more than you about WHO and HOW it was done, I called for an open investigation

also like 200 times ive said the 911 Commission Report was a joke, a farce, a sham, bullshit

The 911 COMMISSION REPORT is the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT STORY ON 9/11, we have nothing else to go by but that

EVERYTHING else is just youtube links and random educated peoples opinions. "theories"

ANY other theory, is considered AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY, to answer my question

even wondering about things, LEFT OUT, DISMISSED, OMMITTED, from the report, makes someone a "conspiracy theorist"


look at what youve come to


-nobody cares about wtc7 because no one died

-it happened 5 years ago

-give us a theory!, dan, mookie, mouse!

[ChumpDumper]

The 911 COMMISSION REPORT is the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT STORY ON 9/11, we have nothing else to go by but thatFalse.


look at what youve come to

-nobody cares about wtc7 because no one diedIn the proper context of my quote about why you saw no documentaries on The Learning Channel about it, absolutely.


-it happened 5 years agoIt did, so in the proper context of our conversation, there won't be hundreds of hours devoted to it on commercial tv every week.


-give us a theory!, dan, mookie, mouse!What is wrong with asking a person who thinks the official and generally accepted theory is largely "a joke, a farce, a sham, bullshit" what he believes actually may have happened?

[sabar]

Actually the trails you see behind jets are actually composed mostly of water vapor.

Unless of course you are a REAL CTer and those constrails are actually CHEMTRAILS (http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html).

There is a whole branch of CT theory that says we are being sprayed with chemicals via high flying jets. (adds spooky conspiracy music)There are chemtrails -- when aircraft jettison their toilet waste!

[spurschick]

It was all a bad dream. The towers are still there.

[Ya Vez]

Did anybody hear about this..

Billionaire Mark Cuban, a determined backer of an in process feature film, "Loose Change" remake of a film indicating factions of the US Government were complicit in creating, backing, and fulfilling attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001.

[Extra Stout]

It was all a bad dream. The towers are still there.
The towers never were there. They were holographic projections.

[Extra Stout]

if true, hope cubano has proof
Cuban is not distributing the movie because he believes it. He is distributing the movie because he doesn't believe it and wants people to see it for themselves.

Sort of like how the ACLU insists upon free speech for the KKK. If their speech is suppressed, people can't see how stupid they are.

[SRJ]

The so-called terrorists were actually field agents from the lost city of Atlantis.

In a stunning coincidence, if you take the two T's out of Atlantis you get Alanis, as in Morrisette. In another, almost frightening coinicidence, if you take the two T's out of Morrisette you get Morrissee, which of course is an alternate spelling for Morrissey.

Yes folks, I have stumbled upon it.

Embittered by his lack of commercial success, former Smiths frontman Morrissey secretly had a sex-change operation and emerged as ironic hipster pop princess Alanis Morrisette. The Atlantean government, convinced that their long-lost queen was singing about hands in pockets (thus mocking the Atlantean royal family - read the lyrics), decided to lash out at the United States - the very nation which gave Morrisette her platform of hate and bestowed riches on her for it.

Frankly, I can't believe no one has made these connections before.

[mookie2001]

thats the da vinci code

[MavTalker]

I would say something if I knew RandonGuy and Chump wouldn't beat me over the head with Reynolds wrap.

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/30/50/Reynolds_Wrap_Release_Non-Stick_Aluminum_Foil-resized200.gif

[ChumpDumper]

You won't say anything because you don't have anything to say.

Besides, if we're too rough on you, you can just ask a mod to ban me.

[nacho]

You won't say anything because you don't have anything to say.

Besides, if we're too rough on you, you can just ask a mod to ban me.

Baning you is like Rosie O'Donnell drinking diet coke.

[ChumpDumper]

Or like asking you what think really happened on 9/11.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

ChumpDumper you expose yourself by taking this position, unless

a) you wrote the 9/11 commission report or

b) you completely utterly totally believe the 9/11 commission report


you never refer to why you believe what you do, or go into much detail as you ask for that doesn't coincide with one of the biggest bullshit documents in the 21st century. You can't just ask someone for a complete and elaborate theory compensating every single facet of what happened.....in fact you, pretending to be the man sitting on top, don't really know what happened in every facet of 9/11, so why do you talk down to those who don't believe in the 9/11 commission report, as if you published the damn thing, personally took part in all scientific and investigative research, and its fool proof?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I gaurantee you if the guys who made Loose Change had the money, more connections, they could compile a 500 page document too; it doesn't make it true

there are holes in every fucking theory imaginable, including 'the truth'--why else would so many 'nuts' be prone to believing 'alternative' theories?

[ChumpDumper]

ChumpDumper you expose yourselfExpose yourself to what?
you never refer to why you believe what you do, or go into much detail as you ask for that doesn't coincide with one of the biggest bullshit documents in the 21st century.It's the most plausible explanation. I have problems with the 9/11 Commission, but it's mainly with the ass-covering of Clinton and Bush administration members that was allowed and unquestioned. If you think it's the biggest bullshit document in the 21st century. I don't know why it's so terrible to ask what your problems are with it and what you think they missed.
You can't just ask someone for a complete and elaborate theory compensating every single facet of what happened.I can ask people who think that the official story is bullshit what they think happened, especially when they spend alot of time "researching" and presenting their findings here.
in fact you, pretending to be the man sitting on top, don't really know what happened in every facet of 9/11No shit.
so why do you talk down to those who don't believe in the 9/11 commission report, as if you published the damn thing and its fool proof?Because I'm a jerk, mainly. But I in fact to have a pretty comprehensive theory as to what really happened on 9/11, whether I actually know anything or not.

Now that that has been established, what do you think really happened on 9/11?

[ChumpDumper]

I gaurantee you if the guys who made Loose Change had the money, more connections, they could compile a 500 page document too; it doesn't make it trueWell, they're connected to Mark Cuban now. I don't know exactly how much more money they need.
there are holes in every fucking theory imaginable, including 'the truth'--why else would so many 'nuts' be prone to believing 'alternative' theories?What alternative theories?

[Extra Stout]

ChumpDumper you expose yourself by taking this position, unless

a) you wrote the 9/11 commission report or

b) you completely utterly totally believe the 9/11 commission report

I belive the 9/11 Comission Report correctly identifies that Islamic terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Center towers, as well as the Pentagon, and that the collapse of the World Trade Center towers came as a result of damage and fires caused by the plane impacts.

I also believe that the 9/11 Commission Reports whitewashes negligence by employees of the government in various capacities, and downplays failures by elected and appointed officials.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

That explosives were involved and the building collapses were not because of hte fire, that's my theory, thats the main thing i have against what we're spoon fed
and i've said this bajillions of times on this forum

[ChumpDumper]

That explosives were involved and the building collapses were not because of hte fire, that's my theory, thats the main thing i have against what we're spoon fed
and i've said this bajillions of times on this forumThat leads to asking the who/what/where/when/why and how of those explosives. Provide answers or even guesses to those questions, and you'll have a theory.

[smeagol]

CbF in the same camp with mookie and elpimpo.

Why am I not surprised?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

That leads to asking the who/what/where/when and why of those explosives. Provide answers or even guesses to those questions, and you'll have a theory.

Bull shit, you don't need to have all those to have a theory, maybe to satisify your curiousity, but not to have a theory.

How can anyone here on spurstalk possibly have all the facts to compose such a theory....however, we can read general statements from various sources and some of us can come to the conclusion that the towers falling because of fire was total BS,

once again
you either completely totally completely totally believe the 9/11 commission report, or you dont, in which case you're asking all of those people for a theory comparable to that one
which is impossible
you and everyone in this thread knows it before even opening it

we can tell you what we think but neither you nor i nor yonivore nor nbadan conducted the scientific research or did the interviewing to draw a vice tight theory


My opinion is that it was mostly al-qaeda or some terrorist organization, they somehow had connections and the amazing planning capability to store explosives either in the plane or the tower or both, the very fact that they were able to do that suggests either some us citizen involvement or even better infiltration by terrorists into the u.s. than we thought

so that's who, what, where, and we all know when, the why would blatantly be to make them towers come down

so theres your theory

[ChumpDumper]

Bull shit, you don't need to have all those to have a theory, maybe to satisify your curiousity, but not to have a theory.So you just stopped right there at explosives, and never gave any thought to going any further?
How can anyone here on spurstalk possibly have all the facts to compose such a theory.Note I said you could guess.
however, we can read general statements from various sources and some of us can come to the conclusion that the towers falling because of fire was total BSAnd you can read other sources and some of us can come to the conclusion that it's quite believeable -- and the fact that it is part of a larger theory makes it all the more believeable.
once again
you either completely totally completely totally believe the 9/11 commission report, or you dont, in which case you're asking all of those people for a theory comparable to that oneI don't totally believe the 9/11 Commission Report. Neither does ES. We just said so.
in which case you're asking all of those people for a theory comparable to that oneNo, I'm asking people what they think really happened on 9/11. If you're saying you never even thought to speculate about who planted the explosives you claim brought down the buildings, I'm inclined not to believe it.
we can tell you what we think but neither you nor i nor yonivore nor nbadan conducted the scientific research or did the interviewing to draw a vice tight theorySo we're all equal then. Why won't you tell us what you think?

[ChumpDumper]

My opinion is that it was mostly al-qaeda or some terrorist organization, they somehow had connections and the amazing planning capability to store explosives either in the plane or the tower or both, the very fact that they were able to do that suggests either some us citizen involvement or even better infiltration by terrorists into the u.s. than we thoughtNow was that so hard? Why were you holding this back?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Now was that so hard? Why were you holding this back?
Because its not a theory, not a good one anyways.

Nothing that ever comes from my brain alone on this message forum will ever truely resemble a rock solid coherent theory that is believeable to people who already buy the bulk of the 9/11 report, because (obviously) i haven't all the facts, im sure i could get more if i reserached more into it, but its pointless. what would it solve? The majority seem to be on your side, believing mostly what we are told to believe. Cool, im not playing that 'sheeple' crap anymore, but i just dont buy it.


My main bit about 9/11 (before saying alot of the report was bull shit and i thought they were brought down by explosives) was that they are holding back information from us
i see holes in the official story
i dont see the rubble pictures from the buildings and believe fire brought this multi million dollar construction breakthrough crumbling down. i just dont.
And I never will. My opinion is my opinion and would change if and when we get more information about what happened on the day them towers came crumbling down.

I know you've answered this question before, but regarding what you don't believe about the 9/11 commission report, could you really provide a tight theory explaining your opinion on those parts of it?
Then wouldn't the evaluation of the validity of such a theory be wide open to scrutinization, some being satisified, some saying its not good enough? Thats why i sense from you in this thread, i think even if one of us was a hardcore tin foil dude like you think we are, and cared enough to pour hours and hours into research and writing for a theory, that its still possible you would not be satisfied
its without point
pointless

like someone else said its been 5 years, noones gonna change their mind at this point on what happened unless we get some new breakthrough of information

[ChumpDumper]

I know you've answered this question before, but regarding what you don't believe about the 9/11 commission report, could you really provide a tight theory explaining your opinion on those parts of it?Well, yes -- mainly because my disagreements with the 9/11 Commission Report don't have anything to do with the attack itself or the mechanics of falling buildings. It has to do more with the Bush and Clinton administrations' handling of the issue of terror and a few specific incidents concerning that which are pretty well-documented outside of the Commission Report.
Then wouldn't the evaluation of the validity of such a theory be wide open to scrutinization, some being satisified, some saying its not good enough?Absolutely. I'd be a little concerned if everyone on this board agreed with me.
Thats why i sense from you in this thread, i think even if one of us was a hardcore tin foil dude like you think we are, and cared enough to pour hours and hours into research and writing for a theory, that its still possible you would not be satisified
its without point
pointless

like someone else said its been 5 years, noones gonna change their mind at this point on what happened unless we get some new breakthrough of informationI'd argue that the number of minds that have been changed on any issue here in that last five years could probably be counted on one hand.

While I disagree with it, you have actually proven you aren't a nutjob by actually stating your theory, which isn't as completely outlandish as some of us might have been thikning it would be. If you really cared to research it further, I think I you might end up changing your theory -- but if you don't see any point in doing so, that's fine too -- though I don't see why you would need to disparage anyone for doing so.

I don't see any of the above as a bad thing. Ultimtely I like knowing where people stand on an issue, and that's been pretty hazy in this case. Does it really matter? Probably not -- in that case, my questioning should just be ignored -- but if anyone chooses to continue challenging the generally accepted theory of 9/11, they should expect me to ask them what they think really happened again.

[gtownspur]

CbF in the same camp with mookie and elpimpo.

Why am I not surprised?


They're from Victardia Texas, that's why.

[mookie2001]

smeagol wouldnt like it there, everyone has guns and the gun shows we have every week make it so easy to buy guns

[smeagol]

smeagol wouldnt like it there, everyone has guns and the gun shows we have every week make it so easy to buy guns
You are probably right.

The sight would make me puke.

[RandomGuy]

Bull shit, you don't need to have all those to have a theory, maybe to satisify your curiousity, but not to have a theory.

How can anyone here on spurstalk possibly have all the facts to compose such a theory....however, we can read general statements from various sources and some of us can come to the conclusion that the towers falling because of fire was total BS,

once again
you either completely totally completely totally believe the 9/11 commission report, or you dont, in which case you're asking all of those people for a theory comparable to that one
which is impossible
you and everyone in this thread knows it before even opening it

we can tell you what we think but neither you nor i nor yonivore nor nbadan conducted the scientific research or did the interviewing to draw a vice tight theory


My opinion is that it was mostly al-qaeda or some terrorist organization, they somehow had connections and the amazing planning capability to store explosives either in the plane or the tower or both, the very fact that they were able to do that suggests either some us citizen involvement or even better infiltration by terrorists into the u.s. than we thought

so that's who, what, where, and we all know when, the why would blatantly be to make them towers come down

so theres your theory

There were no explosives. Explosives were not needed.

[man chowder]

Can we post GIFs?

[ChumpDumper]

Comprehensive GIFs.

[sabar]

The conspiracy isn't born from a search of truth; it's born from political bias.

Thought experiment.

If liberals were in control of the U.S. and 9/11 happened EXACTLY the same way, would the same people believe what they do now?

Of course not, this fact alone is what makes conspiracy theory so weak. Look at all the conspiracy theories over the years of human history. I only know of TWO that were ever proven true.

[mookie2001]

^yes this is one thing moderate liberals, extreme liberals, independents, true conservatives and libertarians have come together on

only group ive never heard any alternative theories from are neocons

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

^yes this is one thing moderate liberals, extreme liberals, independents, true conservatives and libertarians have come together on

only group ive never heard any alternative theories from are neocons

??????

I have multiple family members that are straight party ticket Democrats, and they even laugh at the conspiracy theorists.

I guess they're not really liberals though, they just say liberal things and vote straight liberal ticket to cover up the fact they're really neocons :rolleyes

And you wonder why people laugh at your conspiracy theories...


My opinion is that it was mostly al-qaeda or some terrorist organization, they somehow had connections and the amazing planning capability to store explosives either in the plane or the tower or both, the very fact that they were able to do that suggests either some us citizen involvement or even better infiltration by terrorists into the u.s. than we thought

It's great to see that you actaully quit dodging Chump and posted something, though I'd love to hear more about these mythical explosives that can survive the impact of a jumbo jet flying into a building at full speed, disperse themselves through the various floors of the WTC, and properly detonate in a controlled explosion hours after the initial impact.

[smeagol]

Agree with Sabar. Look at our resident conspiracy theorists and you can figure out where they are coming from and the agenda they bring with them.

[mookie2001]

who me? I have said Clinton (along with bush 1 and reagan) could have caught bin laden a while ago, I am supporting a Republican for president, 100% closed borders, and have recently been scoffing YOU over gun control

[mookie2001]

but I hate Bush and war without end

thats an agenda

[RandomGuy]

it not specific because i dont know any more than you about WHO and HOW it was done, I called for an open investigation

also like 200 times ive said the 911 Commission Report was a joke, a farce, a sham, bullshit

The 911 COMMISSION REPORT is the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT STORY ON 9/11, we have nothing else to go by but that

EVERYTHING else is just youtube links and random educated peoples opinions. "theories"

ANY other theory, is considered AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY, to answer my question

even wondering about things, LEFT OUT, DISMISSED, OMMITTED, from the report, makes someone a "conspiracy theorist"


look at what youve come to


-nobody cares about wtc7 because no one died

-it happened 5 years ago

-give us a theory!, dan, mookie, mouse!

I believe that people covered their asses when talking to the 9-11 commission, and in that sense it probably didn't get at all the indecision and incompetance.

BUT

Having read most of it, as most people have NOT, I have concluded that it probably isn't too far off.

In THAT, I will always out-fact a lot of people who say it was a total fake, because I at least KNOW what it really says, instead of having bits of it spoon-fed to me by people out to prove a point. :reading

[RandomGuy]

who me? I have said Clinton (along with bush 1 and reagan) could have caught bin laden a while ago, I am supporting a Republican for president, 100% closed borders, and have recently been scoffing YOU over gun control

Bin Laden was not much of a priority before 9-11, and the farther you go back in time, the less of a priority he was. Find an article about him that dates back to Reagan's presidency. Go ahead, I'll wait.

[mookie2001]

we funded him, trained him and provided him with weapons

[RandomGuy]

but I hate Bush and war without end

thats an agenda

I would agree. This is not so much a "war" as a struggle against a murderous ideology.

You don't counter ideology with force, that just validates it.

You fight ideas with ideas, and THAT is something that the conservadrones SUCK at.

[RandomGuy]

we funded him, trained him and provided him with weapons

... in the 1970's. Before he was disowned by his rich family we didn't really fund him directly. We funded him as we did all the mujahadeen in Afghanistan.

He was just another dude with a beard as far as we were concerned until about 1995.

[boutons_]

OBL was not apparently "just another dude" to Clinton's security people, or they wouldn't have bothered to shoot at him with several $Ms of cruise missles.

Did Clinton's people criminally burn all their files on OBL before 20 Jan 2001? Or did Condi simply refuse to study the OBL files and take up the security watch?

Neither Condi or any other Repug has listed ANY Repub anti-terrorist actions between 20 Jan 2001 and 9/11.

Do you think that is because they are trying to hide their anti-terrorist actions or because they didn't take any actions?

[dallaskd]

Thats a long title..

[xrayzebra]

Just wondering, can someone accept the theory of a person that
was there when it all happened, watched the planes fly into
the building, witness the people jumping, seeing the results and
watch the buildings fall and run like hell with no shoes and pick
the glass out of their feet. Just checking.

[RandomGuy]

Just wondering, can someone accept the theory of a person that
was there when it all happened, watched the planes fly into
the building, witness the people jumping, seeing the results and
watch the buildings fall and run like hell with no shoes and pick
the glass out of their feet. Just checking.

..only if they reported hearing explosions that must have been bombs.

Because as we all know from our everyday experience with bombs and terrorist attacks, there is nothing that sounds like an explosion that is not a bomb.

I mean, just the other day, I thought I heard an explosion. Then I remembered that according to Dan and the CTers, that all noises that sound like explosions must have been a bomb blowing up a building instead of the local transformer blowing out.

[Extra Stout]

I mean, just the other day, I thought I heard an explosion. Then I remembered that according to Dan and the CTers, that all noises that sound like explosions must have been a bomb blowing up a building instead of the local transformer blowing out.
How do you that transformer didn't have a secret compartment storing documents which reveal the truth about 9/11?

[ChumpDumper]

Since the world didn't change on Thursday night, bump.

[Nbadan]

... in the 1970's. Before he was disowned by his rich family we didn't really fund him directly. We funded him as we did all the mujahadeen in Afghanistan.

He was just another dude with a beard as far as we were concerned until about 1995.


:lol

No, Usama was around long before 1995, before 1991.

[Nbadan]

..only if they reported hearing explosions that must have been bombs.

Because as we all know from our everyday experience with bombs and terrorist attacks, there is nothing that sounds like an explosion that is not a bomb.

I mean, just the other day, I thought I heard an explosion. Then I remembered that according to Dan and the CTers, that all noises that sound like explosions must have been a bomb blowing up a building instead of the local transformer blowing out.

Transformers? :lol

No, let me get you a copy of 911 eyewitness and you tell me the explosions on his tape (audio and all) are transformers.....

[RandomGuy]

Transformers? :lol

No, let me get you a copy of 911 eyewitness and you tell me the explosions on his tape (audio and all) are transformers.....

Nah, they aren't all transformers. There are LOTS of things that sound like explosions that aren't bombs, but you won't admit to even this, so I will leave it at that.

[Nbadan]

Anyway, who knew what? and when did they know?

Anyone remember this?

Ashcroft Flying High
WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001


Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

CBS news (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml)

So someone knew in July 01 that air craft safety may be jeopardized.

[Nbadan]

The Secrets of September 11

The White House is battling to keep a report on the terror attacks secret. Does the 2004 election have anything to do with it?


April 30 — Even as White House political aides plot a 2004 campaign plan designed to capitalize on the emotions and issues raised by the September 11 terror attacks, administration officials are waging a behind-the-scenes battle to restrict public disclosure of key events relating to the attacks.

****

Some sources who have read the still-secret congressional report say some sections would not play quite so neatly into White House plans. One portion deals extensively with the stream of U.S. intelligence-agency reports in the summer of 2001 suggesting that Al Qaeda was planning an upcoming attack against the United States—and implicitly raises questions about how Bush and his top aides responded. One such CIA briefing, in July 2001, was particularly chilling and prophetic. It predicted that Osama bin Laden was about to launch a terrorist strike “in the coming weeks,” the congressional investigators found. The intelligence briefing went on to say: “The attack will be spectacular and designed to inflict mass casualties against U.S. facilities or interests. Attack preparations have been made. Attack will occur with little or no warning.”

The substance of that intelligence report was first disclosed at a public hearing last September by staff director Hill. But at the last minute, Hill was blocked from saying precisely who within the Bush White House got the briefing when CIA director Tenet classified the names of the recipients. (One source says the recipients of the briefing included Bush himself.) As a result, Hill was only able to say the briefing was given to “senior government officials.”

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node...)

[Nbadan]

And on Tenet's new book...


The question of why didn’t he resign is over shadowed by why didn’t he tell the truth. At the 9/11 hearings on April 14, 2001 he said he had not talked to the president in August 2001. Yet, in his book, we find out he had talked to the president in August, so he clearly lied at the 9/11 hearings. We find out he had flown down to Crawford, Texas for a meeting on August 17, August 24, and had talked again with the president on August 30 or 31 in Washington. But he says in his book he gave a unmistakable warning to Condoleezza Rice on July 10, 2001, that a spectacular attack was just about to take place inside of the US that would result in mass American casualties. So what did he tell the president on August 17, or the 24th. We know that the CIA had issued a world wide alert for Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi on August 23, 2001, just one day before his meeting with the president in Crawford, and clearly the CIA knew that these long time al Qaeda terrorists, who were now known to be in the US, were going to take part in this al Qaeda attack. We know Tenet talked with the president six more times in September before 9/11, so he had plenty of time to tell him about this huge attack. So exactly what did he tell the president on these occasions. The big question is what did the president know and why did he do nothing to save the 3000 people killed on 9/11? Why is this only coming out now, five years after 9/11? For more information, search for “eventson911″.

The Hill (http://pundits.thehill.com/2007/04/27/chairman-waxman-calls-george-tenet-book-tour-will-be-under-oath)


Bojinka, Bojinka, Bojinka....


American aviation officials were warned as early as 1998 that Al Qaeda could "seek to hijack a commercial jet and slam it into a U.S. landmark," according to previously secret portions of a report prepared last year by the Sept. 11 commission.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/14/politics/14terror.html?ei=5094&en=8736e8e43e5437a2&hp=&ex=1126756800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print)

They never intended to slam the planes into buildings, right Chumpy?

[Nbadan]

August 23, 2001: Mossad Reportedly Gives CIA List of Terrorist Living in US; at Least Four 9/11 Hijackers Named



According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11 hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known, and these four will be 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. The Mossad appears to have learned about this through its “art student spy ring.” Yet apparently, this warning and list are not treated as particularly urgent by the CIA and the information is not passed on to the FBI. It is unclear whether this warning influenced the decision to add Alhazmi and Almihdhar to a terrorism watch list on this same day, and if so, why only those two. Israel has denied that there were any Mossad agents in the US.

Cooperative Research (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&warning_signs:_specific_cases=foreignIntelligence)

[Nbadan]

Debunking the 911 Debunkers....

9/11 and the Evidence
By Paul Craig Roberts


03/27/07 "ICH " --- Professor David Ray Griffin is the nemesis of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. In his latest book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Griffin destroys the credibility of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Popular Mechanics reports, annihilates his critics, and proves himself to be a better scientist and engineer than the defenders of the official story.

Griffin’s book is 385 pages divided into four chapters and containing 1,209 footnotes. Without question, the book is the most thorough presentation and examination of all known facts about the 9/11 attacks. Griffin is a person who is sensitive to evidence, logic, and scientific reasoning. There is no counterpart on the official side of the story who is as fully informed on all aspects of the attacks as Griffin.

At the outset, Griffin points out that the reader’s choice is between two conspiracy theories: One is that Muslim fanatics, who were not qualified to fly airplanes, defeated the security apparatus of the US and succeeded in three out of four attacks using passenger jets as weapons. The other is that security failed across the board, not merely partially but totally, because of complicity of some part of the US government.

Griffin points out that there has been no independent investigation of 9/11. What we have are a report by a political commission headed by Bush administration factotum Philip Zelikow, a NIST report produced by the Bush administration’s Department of Commerce, and a journalistic account produced by Popular Mechanics. Various scientists who work for the federal government or are dependent on government grants have issued speculative statements in behalf of the official conspiracy theory, but have not produced meaningful evidence in its behalf.

The relevant skeptics of the official story are approximately 100 independent researchers consisting of experts and professors whose careers have required them to deal with evidence and its analysis. Their individual contributions to 9/11 analysis can be found online.

Griffin has undertaken to absorb the arguments and evidence for the official account and the arguments and evidence against it. In his latest book, which has just been released, he presents the case for the official account and its evidential failure.

Polls show that 36% of Americans do not believe the official story. Setting aside the 25% of the public that is so uninformed or uninvolved as to believe that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 attack, leaves 39% of the public who believe the official story. However, this 39% is essentially relying on the mainstream media’s endorsement of the official story. Griffin believes, perhaps naively, that truth can prevail, and it is his commitment to truth that has motivated him to shoulder the enormous task.

Everyone who believes in the integrity of the US government or the Bush administration will find Griffin’s book to be disturbing. Readers will have to confront such issues as why US authorities seized the forensic evidence resulting from the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings, the attack on the Pentagon and the crashed airliner in Pennsylvania and prevented any forensic examination of any part of the 9/11 attacks.

Despite widespread belief that Osama bin Laden was responsible for the attack, the evidence we have is a suspect video declared to be “bogus” by Bruce Lawrence, perhaps the leading American expert on bin Laden. The US government has never produced the promised report on bin Laden’s responsibility. When the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden on presentation of evidence, the US government had no evidence to deliver; thus the invasion of Afghanistan.

The fragility of the NIST report is astonishing. The report succeeded because people accepted its assurances without examination.

Griffin shows that the Popular Mechanics report consists of special pleading, circular reasoning, appeals to the authority of the NIST report, straw men, and internal contradictions in the report itself.

There is not space in a review to present the evidence Griffin has mustered. A few highlights should suffice to alert readers to the possibility that the Bush administration has lied about more than Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction.

The two WTC towers did not collapse. They blew up and disintegrated, as did WTC 7. There is an enormous energy deficit in every account that rules out the use of explosives. Gravitational energy is insufficient to explain the pulverization of the buildings and contents and the severing of the 47 massive center core steel columns in each of the towers into convenient lengths to be picked up and loaded onto trucks; much less can gravitational energy account for the pulverization of the top floors of the towers and ejection of steel beams hundreds of feet horizontally just prior to the disintegration of the floors below.

Damage caused by airliners and short-lived limited fires cannot explain the disintegration of the buildings. The massive steel skeletons of the towers comprised a gigantic heat sink that wicked away whatever heat the limited fires produced.

NIST’s final report stated that of the steel available to it for examination, “only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees Celsius” (482 degrees Fahrenheit). The self-cleaning ovens in our home kitchens reach temperatures higher than this, and the ovens do not melt or deform.

Steel begins to melt at 1,500 degrees C or 2,800 degrees F. Temperatures of 250 degrees C would have no effect on the strength of steel. The explanation that the buildings collapsed because fire weakened the steel is speculative. Open air fires do not produce temperatures sufficient to deprive steel of its structural integrity. Steel framed buildings have burned 22 hours in raging infernos, and the steel skeletons remained standing. The WTC fires in the towers lasted about one hour and were limited to a few floors. Moreover, it is impossible for fire to account for the sudden, total and symmetrical disintegration of powerfully constructed buildings, much less at free fall speeds that are obtainable only with controlled demolition.

Griffin provides quotes from firefighters, police, and tenants, who heard and experienced a series of explosions prior to the disintegration of the towers. Such witness testimony is generally ignored by defenders of the official conspiracy theory.

Molten steel was found in underground levels of the WTC buildings weeks after the buildings’ destruction. As everyone agrees that the fires did not approach the melting point of steel, a possible explanation is high explosives used in demolitions that produce 5,000 degree temperatures. The possibility that explosives were used remains unexamined except by independent researchers.

Contradictions in the official conspiracy theory leap off the pages and hit the reader in the face. For example, the evidence that Flight 77, a Boeing 757, crashed into the Pentagon is the government’s claim to have obtained from the wreckage enough bodies and body parts to match the DNA for each person on the passenger list and flight crew. Simultaneously, the absence of passenger luggage, fuselage, wing and tail sections--indeed the absence of a 100,000 pound airliner--is attributed to the vaporization of the airplane due to the high speed crash and intense fire. The incompatibility of vaporized metal but recovered flesh and blood stood unnoticed until Griffin pointed it out.

Another striking inconsistency in the official conspiracy theory is the difference in the impact of airliners on the Pentagon and the WTC towers. In the case of the Pentagon, the emphasis is on why the airliner caused so little damage to the building. In the case of the WTC towers, the emphasis is why the airliners caused so much damage.

Perhaps it is merely a coincidence that just prior to 9/11 Cathleen P. Black, who has family connections to the CIA and Pentagon and is president of Hearst Magazines, the owner of Popular Mechanics, fired the magazine’s editor-in-chief and several senior veteran staff members and installed James B. Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff, a cousin of Bush administration factotum Michael Chertoff. It was Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff who produced the Popular Mechanics report that Griffin has eviscerated.

In his conclusion Griffin reminds us that the 9/11 attack has been used to start wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, to plan an attack on Iran, to curtail constitutional protections and civil liberties in the US, to radically expand US military budgets and the power of the executive, and to enrich entrenched vested interests. Griffin is definitely correct about this regardless of whether a believable case can ever be made for the government’s version of the 9/11 conspiracy.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

Information Clearinghouse (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17422.htm)

[Nbadan]

To make matters worse, there's new evidence that some members of the current WH were making money on Saddams food-f0r-oil program...

Chevron to acknowledge aiding Saddam.


“Chevron, the second-largest American oil company, is preparing to acknowledge that it should have known kickbacks were being paid to Saddam Hussein on oil it bought from Iraq as part of a defunct United Nations program, according to investigators. … At the time, Condoleezza Rice, now secretary of state, was a member of Chevron’s board and led its public policy committee, which oversaw areas of potential political concerns for the company. Ms. Rice resigned from Chevron’s board on Jan. 16, 2001, after being named national security advisor by President Bush.”

Think Progress (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/08/chevron-to-acknowle)

You starting to see a pattern here?

[Nbadan]

Paranoid shift
By Michael Hasty
Online Journal Contributing Writer
Jan 10, 2004, 20:33


Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of “freedom” and “democracy.“ They really only wanted “absolute power.”

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit “sixty of Allen Dulles’ closest friends” to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again “in hell.”

The transformation of James Jesus Angleton from an enthusiastic, Ivy League cold warrior, to a bitter old man, is an extreme example of a phenomenon I call a “paranoid shift.” I recognize the phenomenon, because something similar happened to me.

Although I don’t remember ever meeting James Jesus Angleton, I worked at the CIA myself as a low-level clerk as a teenager in the ‘60s. This was at the same time I was beginning to question the government’s actions in Vietnam. In fact, my personal “paranoid shift” probably began with the disillusionment I felt when I realized that the story of American foreign policy was, at the very least, more complicated and darker than I had hitherto been led to believe.

But for most of the next 30 years, even though I was a radical, I nevertheless held faith in the basic integrity of a system where power ultimately resided in the people, and whereby if enough people got together and voted, real and fundamental change could happen.

What constitutes my personal paranoid shift is that I no longer believe this to be necessarily true.

In his book, “Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower,” William Blum warns of how the media will make anything that smacks of “conspiracy theory” an immediate “object of ridicule.” This prevents the media from ever having to investigate the many strange interconnections among the ruling class -- for example, the relationship between the boards of directors of media giants, and the energy, banking and defense industries. These unmentionable topics are usually treated with what Blum calls “the media’s most effective tool -- silence.” But in case somebody’s asking questions, all you have to do is say, “conspiracy theory,” and any allegation instantly becomes too frivolous to merit serious attention.

On the other hand, since my paranoid shift, whenever I hear the words “conspiracy theory” (which seems more often, lately) it usually means someone is getting too close to the truth.

Take September 11 -- which I identify as the date my paranoia actually shifted, though I didn’t know it at the time.

Unless I’m paranoid, it doesn’t make any sense at all that George W. Bush, commander-in-chief, sat in a second-grade classroom for 20 minutes after he was informed that a second plane had hit the World Trade Center, listening to children read a story about a goat. Nor does it make sense that the Number 2 man, Dick Cheney -- even knowing that “the commander” was on a mission in Florida -- nevertheless sat at his desk in the White House, watching TV, until the Secret Service dragged him out by the armpits.

Unless I’m paranoid, it makes no sense that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld sat at his desk until Flight 77 hit the Pentagon -- well over an hour after the military had learned about the multiple hijacking in progress. It also makes no sense that the brand-new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff sat in a Senate office for two hours while the 9/11 attacks took place, after leaving explicit instructions that he not be disturbed -- which he wasn‘t.

In other words, while the 9/11 attacks were occurring, the entire top of the chain of command of the most powerful military in the world sat at various desks, inert. Why weren’t they in the “Situation Room?” Don’t any of them ever watch “West Wing?”

In a sane world, this would be an object of major scandal. But here on this side of the paranoid shift, it’s business as usual.

Years, even decades before 9/11, plans had been drawn up for American forces to take control of the oil interests of the Middle East, for various imperialist reasons. And these plans were only contingent upon “a catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor,” to gain the majority support of the American public to set the plans into motion. When the opportunity presented itself, the guards looked the other way . . . and presto, the path to global domination was open.

Simple, as long as the media played along. And there is voluminous evidence that the media play along. Number one on Project Censored’s annual list of underreported stories in 2002 was the Project for a New American Century (now the infrastructure of the Bush Regime), whose report, published in 2000, contains the above “Pearl Harbor” quote.

Why is it so hard to believe serious people who have repeatedly warned us that powerful ruling elites are out to dominate “the masses?” Did we think Dwight Eisenhower was exaggerating when he warned of the extreme “danger” to democracy of “the military industrial complex?” Was Barry Goldwater just being a quaint old-fashioned John Bircher when he said that the Trilateral Commission was “David Rockefeller’s latest scheme to take over the world, by taking over the government of the United States?” Were Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt or Joseph Kennedy just being class traitors when they talked about a small group of wealthy elites who operate as a hidden government behind the government? Especially after he died so mysteriously, why shouldn’t we believe the late CIA Director William Colby, who bragged about how the CIA “owns everyone of any major significance in the major media?”

Why can’t we believe James Jesus Angleton -- a man staring eternal judgment in the face -- when he says that the founders of the Cold War national security state were only interested in “absolute power?” Especially when the descendant of a very good friend of Allen Dulles now holds power in the White House.

Prescott Bush, the late, aristocratic senator from Connecticut, and grandfather of George W Bush, was not only a good friend of Allen Dulles, CIA director, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, and international business lawyer. He was also a client of Dulles’ law firm. As such, he was the beneficiary of Dulles’ miraculous ability to scrub the story of Bush’s treasonous investments in the Third Reich out of the news media, where it might have interfered with Bush’s political career . . . not to mention the presidential careers of his son and grandson.

Recently declassified US government documents, unearthed last October by investigative journalist John Buchanan at the New Hampshire Gazette, reveal that Prescott Bush’s involvement in financing and arming the Nazis was more extensive than previously known. Not only was Bush managing director of the Union Banking Corporation, the American branch of Hitler’s chief financier’s banking network; but among the other companies where Bush was a director -- and which were seized by the American government in 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act -- were a shipping line which imported German spies; an energy company that supplied the Luftwaffe with high-ethyl fuel; and a steel company that employed Jewish slave labor from the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Like all the other Bush scandals that have been swept under the rug in the privatized censorship of the corporate media, these revelations have been largely ignored, with the exception of a single article in the Associated Press. And there are those, even on the left, who question the current relevance of this information.

But Prescott Bush’s dealings with the Nazis do more than illustrate a family pattern of genteel treason and war profiteering -- from George Senior’s sale of TOW missiles to Iran at the same time he was selling biological and chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein, to Junior’s zany misadventures in crony capitalism in present-day Iraq.

More disturbing by far are the many eerie parallels between Adolph Hitler and George W. Bush:

A conservative, authoritarian style, with public appearances in military uniform (which no previous American president has ever done while in office). Government by secrecy, propaganda and deception. Open assaults on labor unions and workers’ rights. Preemptive war and militant nationalism. Contempt for international law and treaties. Suspiciously convenient “terrorist” attacks, to justify a police state and the suspension of liberties. A carefully manufactured image of “The Leader,” who’s still just a “regular guy” and a “moderate.” “Freedom” as the rationale for every action. Fantasy economic growth, based on unprecedented budget deficits and massive military spending.

And a cold, pragmatic ideology of fascism -- including the violent suppression of dissent and other human rights; the use of torture, assassination and concentration camps; and most important, Benito Mussolini’s preferred definition of “fascism” as “corporatism, because it binds together the interests of corporations and the state.”

By their fruits, you shall know them.

What perplexes me most is probably the same question that plagues most paranoiacs: why don’t other people see these connections?

Oh, sure, there may be millions of us, lurking at websites like Online Journal, From the Wilderness, Center for Cooperative Research, and the Center for Research on Globalization, checking out right-wing conspiracists and the galaxy of 9/11 sites, and reading columnists like Chris Floyd at the Moscow Times, and Maureen Farrell at Buzzflash. But we know we are only a furtive minority, the human remnant among the pod people in the live-action, 21st-century version of “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.”

And being paranoid, we have to figure out, with an answer that fits into our system, why more people don’t see the connections we do. Fortunately, there are a number of possible explanations.

First on the list would have to be what Marshal McLuhan called the “cave art of the electronic age:” advertising. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Karl Rove, gave credit for most of his ideas on how to manipulate mass opinion to American commercial advertising, and to the then-new science of “public relations.” But the public relations universe available to the corporate empire that rules the world today makes the Goebbels operation look primitive. The precision of communications technology and graphics; the century of research on human psychology and emotion; and the uniquely centralized control of triumphant post-Cold War monopoly capitalism, have combined to the point where “the manufacture of consent” can be set on automatic pilot.

A second major reason people won’t make the paranoid shift is that they are too fundamentally decent. They can’t believe that the elected leaders of our country, the people they’ve been taught through 12 years of public school to admire and trust, are capable of sending young American soldiers to their deaths and slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians, just to satisfy their greed -- especially when they’re so rich in the first place. Besides, America is good, and the media are liberal and overly critical.

Third, people don’t want to look like fools. Being a “conspiracy theorist” is like being a creationist. The educated opinion of eminent experts on every TV and radio network is that any discussion of “oil” being a motivation for the US invasion of Iraq is just out of bounds, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a “conspiracy theorist.” We can trust the integrity of our ‘no-bid” contracting in Iraq, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a “conspiracy theorist.” Of course, people sometimes make mistakes, but our military and intelligence community did the best they could on and before September 11, and anybody who thinks otherwise is a “conspiracy theorist.”

Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of JFK, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a “conspiracy theorist.”

Perhaps the biggest hidden reason people don’t make the paranoid shift is that knowledge brings responsibility. If we acknowledge that an inner circle of ruling elites controls the world’s most powerful military and intelligence system; controls the international banking system; controls the most effective and far-reaching propaganda network in history; controls all three branches of government in the world’s only superpower; and controls the technology that counts the people’s votes, we might be then forced to conclude that we don’t live in a particularly democratic system. And then voting and making contributions and trying to stay informed wouldn’t be enough. Because then the duty of citizenship would go beyond serving as a loyal opposition, to serving as a “loyal resistance” -- like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, except that in this case the resistance to fascism would be on the side of the national ideals, rather than the government; and a violent insurgency would not only play into the empire’s hands, it would be doomed from the start.

Forming a nonviolent resistance movement, on the other hand, might mean forsaking some middle class comfort, and it would doubtless require a lot of work. It would mean educating ourselves and others about the nature of the truly apocalyptic beast we face. It would mean organizing at the most basic neighborhood level, face to face. (We cannot put our trust in the empire’s technology.) It would mean reaching across turf lines and transcending single-issue politics, forming coalitions and sharing data and names and strategies, and applying energy at every level of government, local to global. It would also probably mean civil disobedience, at a time when the Bush regime is starting to classify that action as “terrorism.” In the end, it may mean organizing a progressive confederacy to govern ourselves, just as our revolutionary founders formed the Continental Congress. It would mean being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves.

It would be a lot of work. It would also require critical mass. A paradigm shift.

But as a paranoid, I’m ready to join the resistance. And the main reason is I no longer think that the “conspiracy” is much of a “theory.”

That the US House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that the murder of John Fitzgerald Kennedy was “probably” the result of “a conspiracy,” and that 70 percent of Americans agree with this conclusion, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That the Bay of Pigs fiasco, “Operation Zapata,” was organized by members of Skull and Bones, the ghoulish and powerful secret society at Yale University whose membership also included Prescott, George Herbert Walker and George W Bush; that two of the ships that carried the Cuban counterrevolutionaries to their appointment with absurdity were named the “Barbara” and the “Houston” -- George HW Bush’s city of residence at the time -- and that the oil company Bush owned, then operating in the Caribbean area, was named “Zapata,” is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That George Bush was the CIA director who kept the names of what were estimated to be hundreds of American journalists, considered to be CIA “assets,” from the Church Committee, the US Senate Intelligence Committe chaired by Senator Frank Church that investigated the CIA in the 1970s; that a 1971 University of Michigan study concluded that, in America, the more TV you watched, the less you knew; and that a recent survey by international scholars found that Americans were the most “ignorant” of world affairs out of all the populations they studied, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That the Council on Foreign Relations has a history of influence on official US government foreign policy; that the protection of US supplies of Middle East oil has been a central element of American foreign policy since the Second World War; and that global oil production has been in decline since its peak year, 2000, is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That, in the early 1970s, the newly-formed Trilateral Commission published a report which recommended that, in order for “globalization” to succeed, American manufacturing jobs had to be exported, and American wages had to decline, which is exactly what happened over the next three decades; and that, during that same period, the richest one percent of Americans doubled their share of the national wealth, is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That, beyond their quasi-public role as agents of the US Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve Banks are profit-making corporations, whose beneficiaries include some of America’s wealthiest families; and that the United States has a virtual controlling interest in the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the World Trade Organization, the three dominant global financial institutions, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That -- whether it’s heroin from Southeast Asia in the ‘60s and ‘70s, or cocaine from Central America and heroin from Afghanistan in the ‘80s, or cocaine from Colombia in the ‘90s, or heroin from Afghanistan today -- no major CIA covert operation has ever lacked a drug smuggling component, and that the CIA has hired Nazis, fascists, drug dealers, arms smugglers, mass murderers, perverts, sadists, terrorists and the Mafia, is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That the international oil industry is the dominant player in the global economy; that the Bush family has a decades-long business relationship with the Saudi royal family, Saudi oil money, and the family of Osama bin Laden; that, as president, both George Bushes have favored the interests of oil companies over the public interest; that both George Bushes have personally profited financially from Middle East oil; and that American oil companies doubled their records for quarterly profits in the months just preceding the invasion of Iraq, is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That the 2000 presidential election was deliberately stolen; that the pro-Bush/anti-Gore bias in the corporate media had spiked markedly in the last three weeks of the campaign; that corporate media were then virtually silent about the Florida recount; and that the Bush 2000 team had planned to challenge the legitimacy of the election if George W had won the popular, but lost the electoral vote -- exactly what happened to Gore -- is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That the intelligence about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction was deceptively “cooked” by the Bush administration; that anybody paying attention to people like former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter, knew before the invasion that the weapons were a hoax; and that American forces in Iraq today are applying the same brutal counterinsurgency tactics pioneered in Central America in the 1980s, under the direct supervision of then-Vice President George HW Bush, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That “Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” the Project for a New American Century’s 2000 report, and “The Grand Chessboard,” a book published a few years earlier by Trilateral Commission co-founder Zbigniew Brzezinski, both recommended a more robust and imperial US military presence in the oil basin of the Middle East and the Caspian region; and that both also suggested that American public support for this energy crusade would depend on public response to a new “Pearl Harbor,” is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That, in the 1960s, the Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously approved a plan called “Operation Northwoods,” to stage terrorist attacks on American soil that could be used to justify an invasion of Cuba; and that there is currently an office in the Pentagon whose function is to instigate terrorist attacks that could be used to justify future strategically-desired military responses, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That neither the accusation by former British Environmental Minister Michael Meacham, Tony Blair’s longest-serving cabinet minister, that George W Bush allowed the 9/11 attacks to happen to justify an oil war in the Middle East; nor the RICO lawsuit filed by 9/11 widow Ellen Mariani against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Council on Foreign Relations (among others), on the grounds that they conspired to let the attacks happen to cash in on the ensuing war profiteering, has captured the slightest attention from American corporate media is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That the FBI has completely exonerated -- though never identified -- the speculators who purchased, a few days before the attacks (through a bank whose previous director is now the CIA executive director), an unusual number of “put” options, and who made millions betting that the stocks in American and United Airlines would crash, is not a “theory.” It’s fact.

That the US intelligence community received numerous warnings, from multiple sources, throughout the summer of 2001, that a major terrorist attack on American interests was imminent; that, according to the chair of the “independent” 9/11 commission, the attacks “could have and should have been prevented,” and according to a Senate Intelligence Committee member, “All the dots were connected;” that the White House has verified George W Bush’s personal knowledge, as of August 6, 2001, that these terrorist attacks might be domestic and might involve hijacked airliners; that, in the summer of 2001, at the insistence of the American Secret Service, anti-aircraft ordnance was installed around the city of Genoa, Italy, to defend against a possible terrorist suicide attack, by aircraft, against George W Bush, who was attending the economic summit there; and that George W Bush has nevertheless regaled audiences with his first thought upon seeing the “first” plane hit the World Trade Center, which was: “What a terrible pilot,” is not “theory.” It’s fact.

That, on the morning of September 11, 2001: standard procedures and policies at the nation’s air defense and aviation bureaucracies were ignored, and communications were delayed; the black boxes of the planes that hit the WTC were destroyed, but hijacker Mohammed Atta’s passport was found in pristine condition; high-ranking Pentagon officers had cancelled their commercial flight plans for that morning; George H.W. Bush was meeting in Washington with representatives of Osama bin Laden’s family, and other investors in the world’s largest private equity firm, the Carlyle Group; the CIA was conducting a previously-scheduled mock exercise of an airliner hitting the Pentagon; the chairs of both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees were having breakfast with the chief of Pakistan’s intelligence agency, who resigned a week later on suspicion of involvement in the 9/11 attacks; and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the United States sat in a second grade classroom for 20 minutes after hearing that a second plane had struck the towers, listening to children read a story about a goat, is not “theoretical.” These are facts.

That the Bush administration has desperately fought every attempt to independently investigate the events of 9/11, is not a “theory.”

Nor, finally, is it in any way a “theory” that the one, single name that can be directly linked to the Third Reich, the US military industrial complex, Skull and Bones, Eastern Establishment good ol’ boys, the Illuminati, Big Texas Oil, the Bay of Pigs, the Miami Cubans, the Mafia, the FBI, the JFK assassination, the New World Order, Watergate, the Republican National Committee, Eastern European fascists, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the United Nations, CIA headquarters, the October Surprise, the Iran/Contra scandal, Inslaw, the Christic Institute, Manuel Noriega, drug-running “freedom fighters” and death squads, Iraqgate, Saddam Hussein, weapons of mass destruction, the blood of innocents, the savings and loan crash, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, the “Octopus,” the “Enterprise,” the Afghan mujaheddin, the War on Drugs, Mena (Arkansas), Whitewater, Sun Myung Moon, the Carlyle Group, Osama bin Laden and the Saudi royal family, David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, and the presidency and vice-presidency of the United States, is: George Herbert Walker Bush.

“Theory?” To the contrary.

It is a well-documented, tragic and -- especially if you’re paranoid -- terrifying fact.

Michael Hasty is a writer, activist, musician, carpenter and farmer. His award-winning column, “Thinking Locally,” appeared for seven years in the Hampshire Review, West Virginia’s oldest newspaper. His writing has also appeared in the Highlands Voice, the Washington Peace Letter, the Takoma Park Newsletter, the German magazine Generational Justice, and the Washington Post; and at the websites Common Dreams and Democrats.com. In January 1989, he was the media spokesperson for the counter-inaugural coalition at George Bush’s Counter-Inaugural Banquet, which fed hundreds of DC’s homeless in front of Union Station, where the official inaugural dinner was being held.

[ChumpDumper]

You're in the right thread, but you don't get the concept.

What did you think really happened on 9/11?

[Nbadan]

I've already told you, it was the greatest deception of all time.

[ChumpDumper]

That's it?

That's your theory?

"It was a deception."

You should put it on YouTube with a techno soundtrack.

[RandomGuy]

Professor David Ray Griffin is the nemesis of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. In his latest book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Griffin destroys the credibility of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Popular Mechanics reports, annihilates his critics, and proves himself to be a better scientist and engineer than the defenders of the official story.


yeah, this is obviously an unbiased, balanced bit of work. :rolleyes

Man, that rolleyes smiley is going to get a workout today.

[RandomGuy]

You starting to see a pattern here?

Yeah. I see a pattern of bad science, faulty logic, and confirmation bias.

I see a pattern of you sucking up everything from the conspiracy websites without doing any critical thinking.

I see a pattern of you ignoring every scientifically based thing that I post and then lying about the absence of scientific proof.

I see a pattern of distortion and lies from all of your sources.

I see a pattern of innuendo and coincidence inflated to a grand sinister conspiracy.

[RandomGuy]

Nor, finally, is it in any way a “theory” that the one, single name that can be directly linked to the Third Reich, the US military industrial complex, Skull and Bones, Eastern Establishment good ol’ boys, the Illuminati, Big Texas Oil, the Bay of Pigs, the Miami Cubans, the Mafia, the FBI, the JFK assassination, the New World Order, Watergate, the Republican National Committee, Eastern European fascists, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the United Nations, CIA headquarters, the October Surprise, the Iran/Contra scandal, Inslaw, the Christic Institute, Manuel Noriega, drug-running “freedom fighters” and death squads, Iraqgate, Saddam Hussein, weapons of mass destruction, the blood of innocents, the savings and loan crash, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, the “Octopus,” the “Enterprise,” the Afghan mujaheddin, the War on Drugs, Mena (Arkansas), Whitewater, Sun Myung Moon, the Carlyle Group, Osama bin Laden and the Saudi royal family, David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, and the presidency and vice-presidency of the United States, is: George Herbert Walker Bush.


Clap.

Clap.

Clap.

The seven degrees of GW Bush?

Ok, here is the grand conspiracy we were all waiting for.

A conspiracy so powerful and pervasive, so far reaching in its scope, that it collapses due to the sheer complexity when exposed to the tiniest amount of logic and questioning.

The number of assumptions you have to make in order to link all of this together is breathtaking. One has to completely shut down the skeptical part of your brain and make a complete leap of faith to be able to shut out the absurdity of it all.

This is the underpinning of the whole conspiracy movement, but Dan hasn't quite glommed on to it yet.

It grew out of the book of revelations in the bible, and looks to the "end times" and the anti-christ.

You can trace all the conspiracy crap back to this one religious-based theme.

Should it surprise anyone that a movement that traces its roots to a questionable interpretation of a religious book could take on the trappings of a religion itself?

You have high priests, holy dogma, and all manner of wild-eyed fanatics.

THIS is what they ask you to buy into, but never want to admit.

[RandomGuy]

Debunking the 911 Debunkers....

[B]9/11 and the Evidence
By Paul Craig Roberts


By the way, Dan, Griffens calculations have been proven to be horseshit, and everything he has brought up has been addressed and debunked.

There is NOTHING new here, merely a long sad repost of the dogma and litany of the 9-11 "truth" religion.

I will not even bother to post anything or any links because you will not read them. You don't have to believe me, and that is fine. I have never resorted to lying to you in order to make any of my arguments. Think about that.

[ChumpDumper]

But Griffin is a professor of theology. That trumps all the engineers in the world.

[Nbadan]

Griffin is a member of the 911 truth movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement), and that movement includes, theologians, scientist, nuclear physics’, professors, engineers Deans of Universities, yada....yada...yada...from the left and the right - an inconvenient truth...

[RandomGuy]

But Griffin is a professor of theology. That trumps all the engineers in the world.

To be fair:

Just because he is a professor of theology doesn't mean he is wrong.

It does mean that we should probably take a very close look at his calculations before we swallow what he says when he is talking about physics.

Unsurprisingly, when you actually understand what he is trying to say and understand the physics in even a basic way, his calculations don't quite pass muster.

He is not wrong because he is talking outside of his area of expertise, he is wrong because he is wrong.

[RandomGuy]

Griffin is a member of the 911 truth movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement), and that movement includes, theologians, scientist, nuclear physics’, professors, engineers Deans of Universities, yada....yada...yada...from the left and the right - an inconvenient truth...

Chances are, I could claim anything on the Web, and at a million-to-one odds, over a thousand people would believe me. In the age of the Internet, that makes me an expert.

I can't be wrong because thousands of people believe my theories. But you can be wrong even though hundreds of millions believe you, because we all know there are millions of stupid people in the world.

[ChumpDumper]

Griffin is a member of the 911 truth movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement), and that movement includes, theologians, scientist, nuclear physics’, professors, engineers Deans of Universities, yada....yada...yada...from the left and the right - an inconvenient truth...And not a coherent theory to be seen from one of them. The most inconvenient truth.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

sounds like chumpdumper has been dumped by his own unwillingness to read websites.

[ChumpDumper]

sounds like chumpdumper has been dumped by his own unwillingness to read websites. Which ones?

The ones with no theories?

This is the Official SpursTalk Comprehensive Alternative 9/11 Theory Thread, in case you have forgotten.

I'm still waiting for one (1) to be posted.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I do believe CBF posted one on page 2.

[ChumpDumper]

Official SpursTalk Comprehensive Alternative 9/11 Theory Thread

[RandomGuy]

Paranoid shift
By Michael Hasty
Online Journal Contributing Writer
Jan 10, 2004, 20:33

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/cliff_notes.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

I needed to bump this in case Galileo or anyone else cares to expand upon their innuendo.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

thththtt-the girders!! the girder strength! just look up the specific heat of the girders.

[ChumpDumper]

Welcome back to the thread, CBF.

Has your research led to any comprehensive alternative theory about what happened on 9/11?

[smeagol]

Awaiting for the mookster . . .

[ChumpDumper]

Looks like it's time to bump this thread as well.

Again, here is your chance to give us some truth to believe in.

A refresher:
Please post only full theories. You may use whatever evidence you have or simply feel, guess or speculate; just make sure you account for all four airplanes -- I'm sorry, alledged airplanes -- the collapses of WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7 and a section of the Pentagon building.

One theory that explains it all.

Spell it out for us sheeple.

We're all looking forward to it.

[ChumpDumper]

I needed to bump this up again because dan keeps saying the official story is untrue.

So what actually happened?

Speak up.

[Sec24Row7]

Griffin is a member of the 911 truth movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement), and that movement includes, theologians, scientist, nuclear physics’, professors, engineers Deans of Universities, yada....yada...yada...from the left and the right - an inconvenient truth...

LoL.... and why do people not believe this and believe the Man Made Global Warming scam... That is exactly like a line used by one of those "pushers"...

[DarrinS]

I'm a huge proponent of the energy beam theory. Highly plausible.


Or, the attacks were just a giant computer-generated special effect.


Note: Sarcasm laid on extra thick.

[xrayzebra]

I'm a huge proponent of the energy beam theory. Highly plausible.


Or, the attacks were just a giant computer-generated special effect.


Note: Sarcasm laid on extra thick.

It was the energy beam. I read it in the Globe.

[FromWayDowntown]

I needed to bump this up again because dan keeps saying the official story is untrue.

So what actually happened?

Speak up.

I asked Dan about that at one point a couple of years ago and he wouldn't discuss the topic, noting some sort of fear about who might be reading the site.

[xrayzebra]

I asked Dan about that at one point a couple of years ago and he wouldn't discuss the topic, noting some sort of fear about who might be reading the site.

You know the really sad part of this whole discussion? I know someone who actually when through the who ordeal of 9/11. She saw and experienced what happen. Let me assure you. Planes flew into the WTC, she felt the shock and heat and seeing the bodies from people jumping. So carry on with you dumbass, stupid exercise in alternate theories. By the way she did come on the forum "one time" and try to tell you that it was real and not some government conspiracy. I wished you could talk to her just one time and let her tell you what it was like meeting the President and going to the graveyard on the island.

You conspiracy folks are a bunch of really sick, sick people.

As a matter of fact, some of you shouldn't meet her. She might just slap the shit of you.

[FromWayDowntown]

You know the really sad part of this whole discussion? I know someone who actually when through the who ordeal of 9/11. She saw and experienced what happen. Let me assure you. Planes flew into the WTC, she felt the shock and heat and seeing the bodies from people jumping. So carry on with you dumbass, stupid exercise in alternate theories. By the way she did come on the forum "one time" and try to tell you that it was real and not some government conspiracy. I wished you could talk to her just one time and let her tell you what it was like meeting the President and going to the graveyard on the island.

You conspiracy folks are a bunch of really sick, sick people.

As a matter of fact, some of you shouldn't meet her. She might just slap the shit of you.

Are you talking to me?

[DarrinS]

Are you talking to me?


I guess he missed your sarcasm.

[2centsworth]

I'm a huge proponent of the energy beam theory. Highly plausible.


Or, the attacks were just a giant computer-generated special effect.


Note: Sarcasm laid on extra thick.

we're in the Matrix, none of this is real.

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess he missed your sarcasm.

There wasn't anything saracastic about my post -- dan did actually cite fear of outsiders in refusing to offer up his thoughts about 9/11 subjects.

That doesn't suggest that I agree with him (I don't) or that I'm a truther (I'm not).

[Extra Stout]

I asked Dan about that at one point a couple of years ago and he wouldn't discuss the topic, noting some sort of fear about who might be reading the site.
This is a very important site. Dan takes credit for singlehandedly turning around the Texas Democratic Party through his posting here.

[2centsworth]

:lmao:lmao:lmaoyou guys are killing me.

[xrayzebra]

I'm talking to all these idiots that want to say dumb things about how the government did it all with explosives. I have tried making fun of them. And being dismissive. But it still persist. It is a real disrespect for those who lived through the ordeal. You really need to listen to those that saw the second plane coming in and were screaming the heads off for the plane to change course. Some of the stories of how they tried to get people to come down with them and they wouldn't because their family was trapped in the upper floors. The sounds bodies make when hitting and the sights of those bodies and what they went through afterwards. The glass taken from their feet when they lost their shoes. My God what a bunch of idiots we have on here. How these people are still suffering to this day when they hear the loud noise of a jet. You people have no idea. None, nor do I. I didn't go through it, but they did and I did listen. I still listen to them when each year 9/11 comes around and they relive the whole thing again.

[mavs>spurs2]

Guys, don't bother with these people, they're much happier believing a few primitive sand monkey muslims armed with sticks with no flight training magically stole a couple of planes and flew them off course without USA fighter intervention. Then of course the CIA magically produces the identity of these hijackers out of the evaporated ashes of their remains. Then of course we have to retaliate by attacking a country that had nothing to do with it, with all those nasty invisible WMD's, and conveniently with all that delicious rich oil. Makes sense.

[xrayzebra]

^^A real example of the Monkey he is referring to. You are an absolute, completely,
unadulterated, idiot to the nth degree. How do you manage to figure out how to operate a keyboard. And he more than likely is the future. Sometimes it really nice to be old. Really.

[mavs>spurs2]

.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This is the official Rick Rickertt/Girder integrity forum, created by me, ChumpDumper

[Nbadan]

Guys, don't bother with these people, they're much happier believing a few primitive sand monkey muslims armed with sticks with no flight training magically stole a couple of planes and flew them off course without USA fighter intervention. Then of course the CIA magically produces the identity of these hijackers out of the evaporated ashes of their remains. Then of course we have to retaliate by attacking a country that had nothing to do with it, with all those nasty invisible WMD's, and conveniently with all that delicious rich oil. Makes sense.

Bingo...and don't forget that 7 years later NIST is still trying to find a logical explanation about how WTC7 fell in the manner that it did....but guys like Random and Chumpy have dug themselves a hole and they are gonna defend to the death their 9/11 faith and the Bush administration and it's penchant for lying and cover-ups....

[Nbadan]

This is a very important site. Dan takes credit for singlehandedly turning around the Texas Democratic Party through his posting here.

You post in the club and the Spurs forum everyday and if you went away no one would notice...

[ChumpDumper]

Say dan, now that you're here you can finally tell us all what you think really happened on 9/11.

We're waiting.

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, apparently all the truthers here are afraid to post what they think really happened on 9/11 because they are afraid I will be mean to them.

Fine.

I won't post anything in response.

Just post what you think really happened.

I will be mean to you if you don't.

[DarrinS]

A guy on this video actally says the explosives could have been planted when the building was erected. That was 1983, so I guess Reagan was in on this too.

Do you guys realize how absolutely shithouse crazy you sound? :lmao

MxOfatzx3SI

[johnsmith]

You post in the club and the Spurs forum everyday and if you went away no one would notice...

Can someone find the thread where Dan claims that spurstalk.com is difference maker for public opinion and politics in America. I don't remember which one it was and it was fucking hilarious. Funny enough that I'm going to show my friends at work so they can see the caliber of folks all over the internets.

[xtremesteven33]

Ok, apparently all the truthers here are afraid to post what they think really happened on 9/11 because they are afraid I will be mean to them.

Fine.

I won't post anything in response.

Just post what you think really happened.

I will be mean to you if you don't.



if you cannot see that 9/11 was an inside job than you are either blind or have a case of cognative dissonance

[TeyshaBlue]

if you cannot see that 9/11 was an inside job than you are either blind or have a case of cognative dissonance

If you see that 9/11 was an inside job then you are either blind or have a case of cognitive dissonance.

[ChumpDumper]

if you cannot see that 9/11 was an inside job than you are either blind or have a case of cognative dissonanceWhat do you think really happened on 9/11?

This is the place to post your full comprehensive theory including all the events of 9/11 in NYC, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.

We look forward to reading it.

[ChumpDumper]

If you see that 9/11 was an inside job then you are either blind or have a case of cognitive dissonance.What do you think really happened on 9/11?

This is the place to post your full comprehensive theory including all the events of 9/11 in NYC, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.

We look forward to reading it.

[DisAsTerBot]

I'm talking to all these idiots that want to say dumb things about how the government did it all with explosives. I have tried making fun of them. And being dismissive. But it still persist. It is a real disrespect for those who lived through the ordeal. You really need to listen to those that saw the second plane coming in and were screaming the heads off for the plane to change course. Some of the stories of how they tried to get people to come down with them and they wouldn't because their family was trapped in the upper floors. The sounds bodies make when hitting and the sights of those bodies and what they went through afterwards. The glass taken from their feet when they lost their shoes. My God what a bunch of idiots we have on here. How these people are still suffering to this day when they hear the loud noise of a jet. You people have no idea. None, nor do I. I didn't go through it, but they did and I did listen. I still listen to them when each year 9/11 comes around and they relive the whole thing again.

... i dont think anyone is saying these people didnt experience hell.....it's just a question of the perpetrator...

[TeyshaBlue]

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

This is the place to post your full comprehensive theory including all the events of 9/11 in NYC, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.

We look forward to reading it.

What happened on 9/11? Terrorists flew planes into the Trade Center towers ultimately resulting in their complete destruction and the collateral destruction of other structures in the immediate vicinity.

A plane was flown into the Pentagon.

A hijacked plane was flown into the ground in Pennsylvania.


My post was a mirror reversal and sarcastic rejoinder to xtrememsteven33's statement.

I've got to find a sarcasm emoticon.:lol

[ChumpDumper]

What happened on 9/11? Terrorists flew planes into the Trade Center towers ultimately resulting in their complete destruction and the collateral destruction of other structures in the immediate vicinity.

A plane was flown into the Pentagon.

A hijacked plane was flown into the ground in Pennsylvania.


My post was a mirror reversal and sarcastic rejoinder to xtrememsteven33's statement.

I've got to find a sarcasm emoticon.:lolSorry, I can't tell who is a troll anymore and if you were using triple reverse sarcasm.

[TeyshaBlue]

Sorry, I can't tell who is a troll anymore and if you were using triple reverse sarcasm.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

I just pulled a muscle trying a double-entendre layout.:lmao

[DarrinS]

It was obviously the Scientologists. Bastards!

[DarrinS]

Maybe it was the Amish. I never trusted those people. And who in the hell gives their kids names like Jedediah anyway?

[xtremesteven33]

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

This is the place to post your full comprehensive theory including all the events of 9/11 in NYC, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.

We look forward to reading it.

let me start off by saying how people who are looking into 9/11 and wanting to seek the truth need to be opened minded. being open minded doesnt mean to accept every thought down the pipe but mearly means to hear other peoples "facts" and CONSIDER whether or not it is true.


what happened on 9/11 was a travesty. to all the people who died and the familys who experienced loss, we are all very sorry for. this was not the act of foreign terrorists though. this was a domestic attack from within our own government. First off there is way too much information to even put in one post to explain how this travesty was orchestrated by our government. i could go into OPERATION NORTHWOODS (a government document stating how they needed a "pearl harbor" like event to get people to accept new government policys). Or even how history proved time and time again how governments have used staged attacks to get people to accept policys and law changes (hitler,nero,stalin). People seem to think that just because we live in America that this could never happen to us. How our own government could ever do harm to its own people. its a way of thinking that has been planted in our minds by media and tradition. America indeed was founded by God fearing men but has backslid from that time. People seem to think just because we hear a man say hes a good person or a Christian man (George Bush) that he could never do such evil. Its funny cause ive had these kind of discussions dozens of times with diffrent kinds of people and the only people who are open to these thoughts are open minded people. People who dont mock and laugh at the evidence. its called Cognative Dissonance. How the Truth can be right in front of you and you either refuse to acknowledge it or how you know it to be true but are stubborn to hold on to your own pattern of thinking.

if you people truly want to know the truth you have to be willing to be open minded. there are HUNDREDS of websites out there that have evidence to prove the innacuracy of government storys of 9/11. look it over. search it yourself. dont excpect other people to do research for you. Dont just say "our government would never do such a thing" or " you people are nuts and have been thinking of conspiracies ever since the days of JFK."

do your own research and you will find out how our government is hiding so much about what really happened. here are some things to look up....

-Building 7
-Pentagon:airplane or missle?
-Steel being melted by fire?
-flight 93's dissapearance
-North American Union

[ChumpDumper]

I have already looked those up.

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

[DarrinS]

let me start off by saying how people who are looking into 9/11 and wanting to seek the truth need to be opened minded. being open minded doesnt mean to accept every thought down the pipe but mearly means to hear other peoples "facts" and CONSIDER whether or not it is true.


what happened on 9/11 was a travesty. to all the people who died and the familys who experienced loss, we are all very sorry for. this was not the act of foreign terrorists though. this was a domestic attack from within our own government. First off there is way too much information to even put in one post to explain how this travesty was orchestrated by our government. i could go into OPERATION NORTHWOODS (a government document stating how they needed a "pearl harbor" like event to get people to accept new government policys). Or even how history proved time and time again how governments have used staged attacks to get people to accept policys and law changes (hitler,nero,stalin). People seem to think that just because we live in America that this could never happen to us. How our own government could ever do harm to its own people. its a way of thinking that has been planted in our minds by media and tradition. America indeed was founded by God fearing men but has backslid from that time. People seem to think just because we hear a man say hes a good person or a Christian man (George Bush) that he could never do such evil. Its funny cause ive had these kind of discussions dozens of times with diffrent kinds of people and the only people who are open to these thoughts are open minded people. People who dont mock and laugh at the evidence. its called Cognative Dissonance. How the Truth can be right in front of you and you either refuse to acknowledge it or how you know it to be true but are stubborn to hold on to your own pattern of thinking.

if you people truly want to know the truth you have to be willing to be open minded. there are HUNDREDS of websites out there that have evidence to prove the innacuracy of government storys of 9/11. look it over. search it yourself. dont excpect other people to do research for you. Dont just say "our government would never do such a thing" or " you people are nuts and have been thinking of conspiracies ever since the days of JFK."

do your own research and you will find out how our government is hiding so much about what really happened. here are some things to look up....

-Building 7
-Pentagon:airplane or missle?
-Steel being melted by fire?
-flight 93's dissapearance
-North American Union




What is your response to the thousands of independent mechanical engineers, civil engineers, structural engineers, forensic scientists, demolition experts, etc. etc. (who don't work for the government) whose explanations match the official version?

By the way, steel doesn't have to become liquified to be significantly weakened. An airplane did strike the Pentagon. Flight 93 did not disappear.


It's okay to ask questions and be skeptical, but when you ask those questions, you have to look for the answers. And when you find those answers, you can't ignore them.

[DarrinS]

In case you THINK you know what controlled implosions look and, more importantly, SOUND like, here's a few cool ones:


79sJ1bMR6VQ

VtmwJVmBvXg

rQup2mWZyHU

CzyLsAeSzdo

[xtremesteven33]

I have already looked those up.

What do you think really happened on 9/11?


i believe our US government orchestrated the attacks. against normal ways of thinking this sounds crazy but if you look with an open mind it starts to make sense. no way can the evidence be ignored.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that's a start. please expand upon that using the criteria listed in the beginning of the thread.
Please post only full theories. You may use whatever evidence you have or simply feel, guess or speculate; just make sure you account for all four airplanes -- I'm sorry, alledged airplanes -- the collapses of WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7 and a section of the Pentagon building.

One theory that explains it all.

[mavs>spurs2]

All I'm saying is that if we were unable to intercept a couple of planes hijacked off course, we might have bigger problems on our hands when someone lets a nuke fly. Someone please explain to me how ignorant sand monkeys >>> the united states government.

[ChumpDumper]

You said something else earlier.

This is why I started this thread. The posters who don't believe the official story just talk about bits and pieces of 9/11 at a time and often contradict their own positions later. Let's set the record straight by covering the whole thing.

[Brutalis]

I won't be back to check this thread as I see politics like talking about religion... lame.

Bush was behind the Trade Center/Pentagon tragedies. Government I should say. Sacrificed our own people to give us a reason to go fuck up the middle east even more and take take take.

Really think any terrorist could have pulled off such a feat? Even landing the second plane after the first one hit? Give me a break. We killed our own people for oil, continue to raise gas prices and the whole youth including me knows this. Go to any college and 75% of the kids will tell you it was an inside job. We aren't that stupid. And you wonder why we don't give a fuck about politics? Stop shitting on us for a change.

----

And to vent: My dad is poor as fuck, is disabled and collects a 700 dollar check every month to pay all his bills and everything. The fucking state DENIED him of food stamps. I bet you anything if he was fucking black they would have gave him food stamps. Fuck em all. But yet they want to give all these illegal Mexicans forty different fucking grants so they can have babies as fast as they can in the states so they can stay and live for free and commune with the inner city crime rate. Hooray I love this country. Not.

[ChumpDumper]

Really think any terrorist could have pulled off such a feat? Even landing the second plane after the first one hit?What do you mean by landing?

[DarrinS]

i believe our US government orchestrated the attacks. against normal ways of thinking this sounds crazy but if you look with an open mind it starts to make sense. no way can the evidence be ignored.


Evidently it can -- by you.

[JoeChalupa]

:lmao

[DarrinS]

A "no planer" owned

akwFhxl8BVs

[DarrinS]

Same fuckturd owned some more

rXj60eGSPMQ

[xtremesteven33]

Evidently it can -- by you.



what evidence have you brought or do you know that would support the "official story" of 9/11?

besides giving out insults?

[ChumpDumper]

what evidence have you brought or do you know that would support the "official story" of 9/11?That's been covered quite well in the "Real 9/11 Research" thread and should be the default answer for folks looking for evidence supporting the official story.

The problem with truther sites is that they present no theory that covers all the events of 9/11 like the official theory does. The purpose of this thread is to give a chance for someone here who has great knowledge of 9/11 issues and does not agree with the official theory comes up with an actual comprehensive alternative theory.

[xtremesteven33]

That's been covered quite well in the "Real 9/11 Research" thread and should be the default answer for folks looking for evidence supporting the official story.

The problem with truther sites is that they present no theory that covers all the events of 9/11 like the official theory does. The purpose of this thread is to give a chance for someone here who has great knowledge of 9/11 issues and does not agree with the official theory comes up with an actual comprehensive alternative theory.



what do you mean by theory?

do you mean reason?

[ChumpDumper]

I mean theory.

There is a quite comprehensive official theory.

There is no comprehensive alternative theory that I have seen.

This thread is for those who disagree with the official theory to present an alternative theory.

You could be the first!

[DarrinS]

what evidence have you brought or do you know that would support the "official story" of 9/11?



That depends on what flavor of twoofer you are. There is evidence to debunk all current fads of 911 twoofery.


Are you a no-planer?

Are you a controlled demolitionist?

Are you an energy-beamer?

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, Dan just spit out this little chestnut in another thread.
Why does Chumpy continue to ignore Mohamed Atta running drugs out of Huffman?So,now you can incorporate this claim into the comprehensive theory you're ready to reveal to the world.

C'mon, we can handle the truth!

[ChumpDumper]

Well Dan is going off again in another thread about hijackers in strip clubs, so now he can include that in his comprehensive 9/11 story that he will post here any second.

[ChumpDumper]

Well Dan is going off again in another thread about my having no explanation for WTC7 -- it's fire in case you were wondering -- so now he can include WTC7 in his comprehensive 9/11 story that he will post here any second.

[ChumpDumper]

Well Dan is going off again in another thread about how calculus proves his theory about 9/11 -- so now he can include calculus in his comprehensive 9/11 story that he will post here any second.

[Nbadan]

I've merely posted that the final report by NIST concerning WTC7 has yet to be released and the 911 Commission omitted any mention of WTC7, but Chumpy who's 'eye's glaze over with Algebra 2' and RG who went to business school because, well, let's face it, he's no scientist, have figured out what caused the WTC7 collapse....it's a miracle to be sure......

[ChumpDumper]

I'm just going by the interim report from the NIST and some articles written about WTC7 by actual structural engineers who have been working on the issue. You don't have to be a math major to figure out where they are going. In fact, judging from your apparent ignorance of what has already been published, it probably helps if you aren't.

Now where is the post where you tell us what you think really happened on 9/11?

[RandomGuy]

I'm just going by the interim report from the NIST and some articles written about WTC7 by actual structural engineers who have been working on the issue. You don't have to be a math major to figure out where they are going. In fact, judging from your apparent ignorance of what has already been published, it probably helps if you aren't.

Now where is the post where you tell us what you think really happened on 9/11?

The magic explosive fairy. Yeah, that's it. A disgruntled ex-postal worker was bitten by an exploding spider, and acquired new super powers, like the ability to place tons of explosives, wire it together, cut through facades to attach explosives, without thousands of people noticing.

[FromWayDowntown]

The magic explosive fairy. Yeah, that's it. A disgruntled ex-postal worker was bitten by an exploding spider, and acquired new super powers, like the ability to place tons of explosives, wire it together, cut through facades to attach explosives, without thousands of people noticing.

Psshsh. Harry Potter has an invisibility cloak, but has to ride a train to go to school and sit in classrooms with no artificial light. I'm sure the US government simply outfitted its operatives in the same sorts of invisibility cloaks, which must be available given the technological status of our society. In fact, the government probably found the technology to produce invisibility cloaks from the alien space cruisers that occasionally visit rural parts of the United States.

[ChumpDumper]

Well Dan is going off again in another thread about how he cares about the rescue and recovery teams at ground zero that he has earlier accused of being in on a cover up -- so now he can include his definitive conclusions about them his comprehensive 9/11 story that he will post here any second.

[xrayzebra]

Boy four threads on 9/11. Can't the moderator combine all of these into one thread?

[ChumpDumper]

Alright, now were getting somewhere. Galileo just dropped this chestnut in another thread:


The 9/11 operation wasn't all that complicated, especially when the mass media gives you air cover.

Now that he has declared 9/11 a simple operation, he can take the time to describe it in full detail. Shouldn't take him long.

[Nbadan]

Psshsh. Harry Potter has an invisibility cloak, but has to ride a train to go to school and sit in classrooms with no artificial light. I'm sure the US government simply outfitted its operatives in the same sorts of invisibility cloaks, which must be available given the technological status of our society. In fact, the government probably found the technology to produce invisibility cloaks from the alien space cruisers that occasionally visit rural parts of the United States.

Does FWDT ever post a serious thought? I haven't seen it...

[ChumpDumper]

Does FWDT ever post a serious thought? I haven't seen it...Do conspiracy nontheorists ever post a theory?

[Nbadan]

Do conspiracy nontheorists ever post a theory?

Why should we when there are so many obvious holes in the 'official story' to discredit?

[ChumpDumper]

Why should we when there are so many obvious holes in the 'official story' to discredit?Except there aren't. Did you ever get around to admitting you lied when you said there was no damage to the buildings next to 7 WTC?

I didn't think so.

Brave Sir Robin....

[RandomGuy]

I've merely posted that the final report by NIST concerning WTC7 has yet to be released and the 911 Commission omitted any mention of WTC7, but Chumpy who's 'eye's glaze over with Algebra 2' and RG who went to business school because, well, let's face it, he's no scientist, have figured out what caused the WTC7 collapse....it's a miracle to be sure......

Maybe you can do some research and give me a synopsis of the purpose section of the 9-11 commission report.

The purpose of the 9-11 commission wasn't to study the collapse of individual buildings.

What was the stated purpose of the 9-11 commission, Dan?

my follow up question:

Is it reasonable that the commission didn't address something that was outside the scope of the report?

[RandomGuy]

Why should we when there are so many obvious holes in the 'official story' to discredit?

Proving one theory wrong does not logically prove another theory, math-boy, even if I give you that your debunked bullshit somehow "disproves" the official theory.

Tell me, if I can't put together a mathmatical proof for one equation, does that automatically prove another equation?

[Nbadan]

....my biggest complaint is that you seem to have no idea what a real mathematical proof is supposed to look like...

[ChumpDumper]

My biggest complaint is that you seem to have no idea what a damaged building looks like.

[ChumpDumper]

Another poster has stated his beliefs about 9/11.


Theory??

i still dont understand what your question is?

our Theory is our Government carried out a false flag terror attack on our own nation for more power over its people.

THATS OUR THEORY!!

Now he has the opportunity to explain fully what he thinks really happened on 9/11.

This should be good. He will certainly be able to expland greatly on this initial claim in great detail!

[ChumpDumper]

Bumped for Cant_Be_Faded's review

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The 911 COMMISSION REPORT is the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT STORY ON 9/11, we have nothing else to go by but that

EVERYTHING else is just youtube links and random educated peoples opinions. "theories"

ANY other theory, is considered AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY, to answer my question

even wondering about things, LEFT OUT, DISMISSED, OMMITTED, from the report, makes someone a "conspiracy theorist"


look at what youve come to


This pretty much sums up every chumpdumper post regarding 9/11 in this entire forum.

[ChumpDumper]

There is plenty more to go by besides the commission report, as I have demonstrated in pretty much every 9/11 thread.

You don't even know what you are bitching about.

[ChumpDumper]

Bumped for Nbadan after he tried to use 9/11 to distract from his self-ownage in another thread.

Let's hear your theory, dan.

[Agloco]

....my biggest complaint is that you seem to have no idea what a real mathematical proof is supposed to look like...

This should make sense to 9/11 conspiracy theorists:

http://blameitontheanalyst.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/fallacy.png

[baseline bum]

WC was one of your students?

[Nbadan]

This should make sense to 9/11 conspiracy theorists:

http://blameitontheanalyst.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/fallacy.png

That's not a proof....

[Wild Cobra]

That's not a proof....
It's an identical type of proof to what you guys say.

[mouse]

....my biggest complaint is that you seem to have no idea what a real mathematical proof is supposed to look like...

He doesn't need to do the Math..... he has me.

[mouse]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-322/flash399.gif

[ChumpDumper]

He doesn't need to do the meth..... he has me.

[Agloco]

That's not a proof....

Good. There is a light on upstairs, however dim it may be.


WC was one of your students?

It seems Dan is vying for Magna Cum Laude honors this go round.

[Wild Cobra]

Have I shown this before?

Look carefully at this photo. Look at all the debris from the WTC 1 collapsing, striking WTC 7.

This had to cause considerable damage. With the arc of the debris cloud, it was mostly heavy material. Not just smoke.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Misc/WTC7beinghit.jpg (http://photos.oregonlive.com/4450/gallery/wtc/index.html)