Spurs vs. Nuggets Game 2 - Grades

[timvp]

Tim Duncan
Overall, it was a decent game out of Duncan. It was still far from his best, but it was a nice improvement over his Game 1 showing. He did a better job being more forceful with his post moves and was more of a presence on defense. I wasn't impressed with his rebounding and he can still ratchet it up a few levels in terms of forcing the action offensively. He has an advantage down low and can still do a better job of capitalizing on it. Huge clutch shot at the end boosts his grade up.
Grade: B-


Manu Ginobili
Maybe I'm overrating Ginobili, but I wasn't overly satisfied with his output tonight. For long stretches, he wasn't aggressive at all. He was making a concerted effort to pass more than he did in the first game, but that came at the expense of being too passive. Denver has no one who can guard him and Manu versus anyone on their team is the biggest mismatch the Spurs have going for them. The turning point in the game for him was when he turned it over but then Robert Horry saved him with that block on Iverson. Ginobili then, instead of being down in the dumps for turning it over, got an easy layup and an open three in the next two possessions. That turn of events kept him from having a Game 1 type game. Overall, Ginobili did enough for the win. I just expect more out of him, especially considering this matchup.
Grade: C+


Tony Parker
Parker is having a tough time. I don't know whether it's the fact he has to spend time guarding Iverson or he's just in a funk, but whatever it is the Spurs need him to snap out of it. He's doing a poor job of running the team right now and that can't continue. He did a good job of getting to the line and guarded AI much better, but he has to help in terms of keeping the offense running efficiently. He had a pretty big shot there in the fourth but this type of performance isn't going to cut it in the playoffs.
Grade: D+


Bruce Bowen
Bowen was huge in this game. He played inspired defense and came up with three huge steals. I thought this was his best overall defensive performance of the season and probably his best since the 2005 playoffs. He also knocked down a couple of big shots. The one problem I have is that he's not boxing out and is instead flopping to try to draw fouls when the rebound is in the air. He needs to take that out of his repertoire and just concentrate on keeping his guy off the boards. Overall, it was a very nice performance.
Grade: A-


Francisco Elson
The good news is that Elson tripled his usual playoff output with two points. The bad news is that Elson is a bad basketball player and that becomes more obvious in the playoffs. He just isn't built for this time of year. He's a running center who is practically worthless in a halfcourt set versus strong interior players. Perhaps he'll be more valuable in other series if the Spurs advance, but it's time to cut bait and stop playing him against Denver.
Grade: F+


Michael Finley
Finley has been a huge key in the first two games. He's the only Spur who seems to have any type of playoff swagger. He's shooting confidently and isn't afraid to take the big shots. His defense was also very impressive on Carmelo Anthony. Bottomline is Finley is playing like he realizes that this is playoff basketball.
Grade: A-


Brent Barry
After Barry's Game 1 performance, it looks like he played himself out of the rotation against the Nuggets, at least. This game, he was pretty good in his five minutes of action. He hit a three and got an assist and helped the Spurs while he was out there. Although he played better, he's not a very good matchup for the Nuggets and should continue to see just spot minutes.
Grade: B


Fabricio Oberto
Oberto was perhaps the biggest key in the win for the Spurs. He came in for an ineffective Elson and was just huge. Eight points, ten rebounds, two assists and no turnovers is outstanding production. His help defense was perhaps his most impressive part of his game. He was a big factor in why AI and Carmelo didn't go off. Offensively, he was very nice until late in his time on the court when he was having trouble down low. If he could ever figure out a way to finish around the basket consistently in the NBA, it'd be hard for Pop not play him more and more.
Grade: A


Robert Horry
Horry had a huge block in the third quarter that turned what have been an eight point lead into a 15 point lead. If he doesn't block that shot, Manu loses more confidence after the turnover and Manu doesn't get the layup to get him rolling. That block might have actually been a season saver, considering how close the game ended. Overall, Horry was deceptively better than he was last game. In Game 1 he was hitting his shots, but this game he was playing better defense, rebounding better and was more active overall.
Grade: B+


Jacque Vaughn
Vaughn had a couple of big defensive possessions. Although he isn't quick enough to guard AI or big enough to guard pretty much anyone else the Nuggets put out there, he's willing to fight on defense. You can't take that away from him. What you can take away from him is his offense. He's not running the team well and he's shooting too much. Vaughn shouldn't shoot unless there are no other options open. He's not going to finish around the basket against this team either, so he just needs to concentrate on running the offense -- whether that's getting clear outs for Manu or getting it down low to Tim.
Grade: C


Pop
Even though the Spurs won, I wasn't very pleased with Pop tonight. There's no way that Duncan should only play 33 minutes in a must-win situation. Especially when Duncan was never in foul trouble. Sitting Duncan at the end of the first half cost the Spurs seven points in two minutes. And then Pop rested him way too long before putting him back in the fourth. I also think he needs to play Elson even less than he is playing him. Offensively, the Spurs aren't posting up Duncan enough and they aren't putting Parker or Manu in positions that they can succeed enough of the time. Either post up Duncan more or isolate Parker and Manu more. Running high post with Duncan or side pick-and-rolls hasn't been effective this series. The offense needs to be simplified to utilize the talent and the lack of defensive players on the Nuggets. Defensively, the Spurs need to be faster about rotating off of Blake or Kleiza. I'd rather see those guys knock down a few shots before I see Nene rolling to the basket or AI and Melo open for three.
Grade: D

[T Park]

Timvp is in grumpy playoff mode :lol

[E20]

Timvp, I see that you grade people other than players, most noticeabley Pop. Please try to include grades for the officiating crew too.

[Kori Ellis]

My Grades:

Defense = B
Oberto, Bowen, Fin = A
Rest of the team (except Elson) = C (crap for a lot of the game, good for other parts)
Elson = F

The Spurs definitely aren't playing great basketball, but the Nuggets are tough.

A win is a win in the postseason.

Go get one in Denver.

[T Park]

The two days off IMO between games is what hurts them a bit.

Should help on the trip to Denver.

If they can grab 3, by some miracle, they might be able to bounce back better for game 4.

They've just got to freakin improve though.

Especially the damn turnovers....

[Obstructed_View]

Good grades. I hope the Spurs watch tape of the Feb 20 Denver game between now and game 3. Completely different intensity. Glad they are still 1-1 after playing this badly. I'm starting to understand why D'Antoni was afraid to lose momentum.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

lj, did you do grades for Pop back when you did game 1?

[sabar]

Elson's score is a bit generous.

[kris]

Good scoring as usual. Pop sucked tonight. I'm not sure what he was saving Duncan for because if they lost the season was over. Also, how was Bowen even in the game when the Nuggets were in must foul mode. They caught it and threw in Finley at the last second, but still that's a pretty huge lapse. Bruce should have at least told Pop himself.

A win is a win is a win, especially in playoffs, but Spurs make this many mistakes (like taking out Duncan with 2 minutes to go in first half and having a 15 point lead trimmed to 8) and a better team is going to beat them.

Spurs were fortunate in a number of ways - Bowens 3 at the end of first quarter from a near Manu TO, Camby's missed dunk, Horry's pass block off the glass for a Manu 3, officials letting Bowen get physical with Carmelo - with as many mistakes as they made Spurs are lucky to be 1-1.

Hopefully, they not only improve, but get more precise and closer to perfect execution throughout the game.

[Spurs Brazil]

I'm very happy with Bowen good game.

He's the key for us to stop AI

[Borosai]

Is anyone else tired of Parker's horrible decision making? He needs to wake the fuck up. And I agree that Duncan needs more minutes. It's one thing to keep the players fresh during the regular season for the playoffs, but we are already IN the playoffs.

What can I say about Finley? He wants the championship more than anyone else on the team. Oberto should be getting most of the minutes at C.

And as a team, they are making Nene look like a star.

[thousandth]

My Grades:

Defense = B
Oberto, Bowen, Fin = A
Rest of the team (except Elson) = C (crap for a lot of the game, good for other parts)
Elson = F

The Spurs definitely aren't playing great basketball, but the Nuggets are tough.

A win is a win in the postseason.

Go get one in Denver.

Yes:
But GINO: B-

go Manu!

[hitmanyr2k]

Good scoring as usual. Pop sucked tonight. I'm not sure what he was saving Duncan for because if they lost the season was over. Also, how was Bowen even in the game when the Nuggets were in must foul mode. They caught it and threw in Finley at the last second, but still that's a pretty huge lapse. Bruce should have at least told Pop himself.

A win is a win is a win, especially in playoffs, but Spurs make this many mistakes (like taking out Duncan with 2 minutes to go in first half and having a 15 point lead trimmed to 8) and a better team is going to beat them.

Spurs were fortunate in a number of ways - Bowens 3 at the end of first quarter from a near Manu TO, Camby's missed dunk, Horry's pass block off the glass for a Manu 3, officials letting Bowen get physical with Carmelo - with as many mistakes as they made Spurs are lucky to be 1-1.

Hopefully, they not only improve, but get more precise and closer to perfect execution throughout the game.

Duncan had 2 fouls at the end of the first half and I think Popovich took him out just to save him from getting a 3rd before the half. Other than that I think all the other criticisms of Popovich are correct...the guy is an idiot with his play-calling. And there's no excuse playing Duncan that little minutes.

[hater]

if this was school. Elson would be sent back home in the short bus

[DarrinS]

Tony Parker
Parker is having a tough time. I don't know whether it's the fact he has to spend time guarding Iverson or he's just in a funk, but whatever it is the Spurs need him to snap out of it. He's doing a poor job of running the team right now and that can't continue. He did a good job of getting to the line and guarded AI much better, but he has to help in terms of keeping the offense running efficiently. He had a pretty big shot there in the fourth but this type of performance isn't going to cut it in the playoffs.
Grade: D+


Jacque Vaughn
Vaughn had a couple of big defensive possessions. Although he isn't quick enough to guard AI or big enough to guard pretty much anyone else the Nuggets put out there, he's willing to fight on defense. You can't take that away from him. What you can take away from him is his offense. He's not running the team well and he's shooting too much. Vaughn shouldn't shoot unless there are no other options open. He's not going to finish around the basket against this team either, so he just needs to concentrate on running the offense -- whether that's getting clear outs for Manu or getting it down low to Tim.
Grade: C




I agree with all your grades except there's no way Vaughn gets a better grade than Tony. The only thing Vaughn did was clank three wide open 10 foot jumpers, turned the ball over, and had 1 foul. He DID have one good play where he doubled Carmelo and Carmelo fouled him. Other than that, I don't care to see Vaughn or Elson on the floor. Isn't there a way to have Barry or Manu run the point while Tony is resting? At least we wouldn't be giving up offensive power.

[T Park]

:lol

He doesnt grade guys like that :lmao

[T Park]

than that I think all the other criticisms of Popovich are correct...the guy is an idiot with his play-calling.

Yeah fire his ass.

[Obstructed_View]

I agree with all your grades except there's no way Vaughn gets a better grade than Tony. The only thing Vaughn did was clank three wide open 10 foot jumpers, turned the ball over, and had 1 foul.
Vaughn missed two jumpers, both from about 18 feet. The grades are for what's expected from each individual player. Nobody expects Vaughn to hit long jumpers, and everybody expects Parker to play better than he did.

[DarrinS]

Vaughn missed two jumpers, both from about 18 feet. The grades are for what's expected from each individual player. Nobody expects Vaughn to hit long jumpers, and everybody expects Parker to play better than he did.


The only thing Tony did bad was turn the ball over (I think 6 times). Other than that, he matched Iverson in points. And he was perfect from the stripe.

[Cry Havoc]

TimVP, I think I have some mild disagreements with you about your grades. Pretty good analysis overall, but here's where we differ:

Duncan had some moments where he disappeared, but he had 5 blocks and 5 assists. 4-6 at the line isn't awful for him either. I'd give him a B and close to a B+. More aggressiveness is needed though.

Ginobili - I agree. He did barely what's expected of him tonight. Hitting those clutch shots isn't enough. He's got to be in the game at all times and playing hard.

Parker gets a C. Why? He hit all 8 of his free throws. That's huge for a team that has difficulties such as we do, and it means he's getting to the rim a bit more. He'll have off-nights from the field, we just have to accept that. I think he'll be big in Game 3.

Pop gets a C. He did fine at rotating our players in, and sat Elson early when he realized he was a non-factor. More Umberto!

Now the real question... does Barry get more playing time? We could put him on Blake on defense.

[T Park]

Look at the other things though. Getting the team in their offense and just alot of stuff like that.

[Cry Havoc]

A win is a win is a win, especially in playoffs, but Spurs make this many mistakes (like taking out Duncan with 2 minutes to go in first half and having a 15 point lead trimmed to 8) and a better team is going to beat them.


A lot of times when Duncan sits it energizes the players on the court. The tempo changes on the opponent unexpectedly and we end up pushing the lead. That's probably why Pop did it other than to give Duncan rest. It just didn't work.

[SpurYank]

This is still a team sport. Pop stresses role play, in order to facilitate for each other. Timvp has no idea what that is all about. Based on that, here are my scores:

Spurs Team: A-
Nuggets Team: A
Timvp: C-

I can just see Spur players reading this Monday morning quarterbacking and rolling their eyes. What NBA tean did Timvp last coach?

[DarrinS]

A lot of times when Duncan sits it energizes the players on the court. The tempo changes on the opponent unexpectedly and we end up pushing the lead. That's probably why Pop did it other than to give Duncan rest. It just didn't work.


WHen Tim sat at the end of the first half, the Nuggets went on a 7-0 run.

[T Park]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is still a team sport. Pop stresses role play, in order to facilitate for each other. Timvp has no idea what that is all about. Based on that, here are my scores:

Spurs Team: A-
Nuggets Team: A
Timvp: C-

I can just see Spur players reading this Monday morning quarterbacking and rolling their eyes. What NBA tean did Timvp last coach?

oh STFU.

So the Spurs were perfect yesterday?

Give me a fucking break take that weak shit out of here.

[Cry Havoc]

This is still a team sport. Pop stresses role play, in order to facilitate for each other. Timvp has no idea what that is all about. Based on that, here are my scores:

Spurs Team: A-
Nuggets Team: A
Timvp: C-

I can just see Spur players reading this Monday morning quarterbacking and rolling their eyes. What NBA tean did Timvp last coach?

What posts have you made on this forum for anyone to take you seriously?

Meanwhile, Timvp is probably the most respected poster on this forum. So congrats for being clueless.

[Cry Havoc]

WHen Tim sat at the end of the first half, the Nuggets went on a 7-0 run.

No, really? Too bad Pop couldn't look in his crystal ball and see that coming.

[boutons_]

"Bottomline is Finley is playing like he realizes that this is playoff basketball."

.... and that the window on his ring is closing.

[leemajors]

What posts have you made on this forum for anyone to take you seriously?

Meanwhile, Timvp is probably the most respected poster on this forum. So congrats for being clueless.

i would give that honor to SpursDynasty. i think LEONARD would agree with me.

[Spurminator]

I have to say I'm not exactly relieved after last night. In fact, I'm a little more concerned than I was before the game.

Let's be real here, the Nuggets played like shit in the first half. And it wasn't because of what we were doing. Unforced turnovers, missed putbacks... I really thought we should have blown them out the way they played last night, but we let them hang around and I feel like they still have the momentum going into Game 3.

Tim and Tony and Manu need to wake up and play the way they're capable of playing.

[Spurminator]

Vaughn missed two jumpers, both from about 18 feet. The grades are for what's expected from each individual player. Nobody expects Vaughn to hit long jumpers, and everybody expects Parker to play better than he did.

I don't want Vaughn taking those jumpers.

[FromWayDowntown]

Brent Barry
After Barry's Game 1 performance, it looks like he played himself out of the rotation against the Nuggets, at least. This game, he was pretty good in his five minutes of action. He hit a three and got an assist and helped the Spurs while he was out there. Although he played better, he's not a very good matchup for the Nuggets and should continue to see just spot minutes.
Grade: B

I also thought that Barry's effort in getting back off a turnover to deny an easy bucket in transition to Camby in the 2nd quarter wasn't insignificant, either. Camby ended up hitting the 2 FT, but Barry denied Denver a momentum-changing play with his hustle. Even if he's fallen out of the rotation, he brought a great effort in the few minutes he got.



Fabricio Oberto
Oberto was perhaps the biggest key in the win for the Spurs. He came in for an ineffective Elson and was just huge. Eight points, ten rebounds, two assists and no turnovers is outstanding production. His help defense was perhaps his most impressive part of his game. He was a big factor in why AI and Carmelo didn't go off. Offensively, he was very nice until late in his time on the court when he was having trouble down low. If he could ever figure out a way to finish around the basket consistently in the NBA, it'd be hard for Pop not play him more and more.
Grade: A

I agree with all of this. I'm wondering if Pop isn't contemplating putting Oberto into the starting lineup, though I can see the wisdom of keeping Oberto and Manu together. Still, Oberto's tenacious rebounding was critical for the Spurs in Game 2 and his ability to find ways to get some easy buckets around the rim (without trying to make posterizing plays) is quite helpful, I think.


Robert Horry
Horry had a huge block in the third quarter that turned what have been an eight point lead into a 15 point lead. If he doesn't block that shot, Manu loses more confidence after the turnover and Manu doesn't get the layup to get him rolling. That block might have actually been a season saver, considering how close the game ended. Overall, Horry was deceptively better than he was last game. In Game 1 he was hitting his shots, but this game he was playing better defense, rebounding better and was more active overall.
Grade: B+

I don't think anyone can understate the importance of Horry's block. Unlike last year, when I doubted his resolve at times, I think Horry's emotionally into this playoff run. His effort in Games 1 and 2 has been phenomenal. The things that Horry does well don't always translate into boxscore numbers, but they're undoubtedly vital to any chance the Spurs have to win this series and advance through these playoffs.

[T Park]

Im very interested in seeing Horry bring his game 1 and game 2 efforts together for a game 3.

Block out and put good efforts on the boards, along with taking more open shots and getting a bit more involved on the offensive end.

[Cry Havoc]

Im very interested in seeing Horry bring his game 1 and game 2 efforts together for a game 3.

Block out and put good efforts on the boards, along with taking more open shots and getting a bit more involved on the offensive end.

Plus he's taking his lumps and still fighting. Game 1 he got thrashed and still played like he wanted it.

I'm digging the shaved head, too.

[T Park]

Watching the end of the first half again, the Nuggets made alot of jumpers, and the Spurs never ran their damn offense correctly.

Small tweaks.

Small tweaks.

I don't feel THAT bad so far after watching the first half.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It looks to me that Finley, Oberto and Horry are the only guys that got the memo that the playoffs have started.

Parker owned AI in the regular season but AI has reversed that in the post season.

Timvp's point about Tim's 33 minutes is a good one. This is the playoffs! Everytime Timmy sat the Nuggets eased their way back in it. Of course, Pop used to do the same thing with DRob. I remember watching leads against the Lakers disappear while the Admiral was on the bench. Back then you could use the bad back excuse for David, but there's no reason to sit Timmy for long stretches. This is playoff basketball, play your starters!!

[T Park]

Ginobili was agressive for 1 or 2 plays.

(This is the darn first half)

The times he was, they were running the damn Nuggets off the court.


God Manu, if your agressive and DRIVING, the Spurs dooo soo much beter.

[Phonzie20]

Watching the end of the first half again, the Nuggets made alot of jumpers, and the Spurs never ran their damn offense correctly.

Small tweaks.

Small tweaks.

I don't feel THAT bad so far after watching the first half.

I can't bring myself to watching my tape of the game :(

[T Park]

Timvp's point about Tim's 33 minutes is a good one. This is the playoffs! Everytime Timmy sat the Nuggets eased their way back in it. Of course, Pop used to do the same thing with DRob. I remember watching leads against the Lakers disappear while the Admiral was on the bench. Back then you could use the bad back excuse for David, but there's no reason to sit Timmy for long stretches. This is playoff basketball, play your starters


Second half I agree.

First half, hes got 2 fouls, and he prob should've yanked him about the 1 and a half mark maybe.

But, thats just splitting hairs.

The second half? I agree completely

Take him out with 1 minute to go in the 3rd. Bring him back in with 10 mins to go in the 4th, and PLAY IT OUT.


None of this under 36 min crap.

[T Park]

I can't bring myself to watching my tape of the game

eh, in the playoffs I can do it.

Regular Season i dont even bother.

Obviously when we rewatch something, were not doing it for coaching purposes, i just think its feeling better going into the next game :lol

[Phonzie20]

eh, in the playoffs I can do it.

Regular Season i dont even bother.

Obviously when we rewatch something, were not doing it for coaching purposes, i just think its feeling better going into the next game :lol

well we DO have some time 'til Sat. i may watch. still hurts right now though.

[T Park]

hurts?

I don't why it would be that painfull.

They played a good second half. They were competitive.
They accomplished the job of getting 1 of 2.

They've got home court advantage. Why the glum? :lol

[Phonzie20]

hurts?

I don't why it would be that painfull.

They played a good second half. They were competitive.
They accomplished the job of getting 1 of 2.

They've got home court advantage. Why the glum? :lol

Kinda wanted it :o

I wasn't expecting a win but seeing them miss easy layups and making stupid TO's makes me believe we could have taken it.

[wildbill2u]

Elson's score is a bit generous.
I couldn't believe how bad his passing was. He telegraphed every pass with movement so slow that in the first quarter I think 4 were stolen. It was a miserable performance.

I hold no big hopes for Butler, but he could get some time in place of Elson in back of Oberto in my opinion. That's how bad Elson looked to me.

[Das Texan]

Oberto and Horry are saving our asses down low this series so far.


Its true though. They have both been there and done that. They show up for big games, its their MO. Along with Timmy, they should be the only 3 bigs playing, barring the refs blowing their whistles repeatadely.


Elson needs to go sit next to Jackie.

[Testing]

Why does Manu get a B and Parker a C?

Parker had some pretty sweet assists in this game, spent much of the time chainsg around AI on the defensive end, got to the line and made 8 FT's, hit a pretty clutch basket in the 4th. He didn't have a great game overall, I agree as his defense wasn't great and he seemed to make bad decisions turning the ball over.

But I was very un impressed with Ginobili, he's the X-Factor and didnt play like it until the 4th quarter, end of 3rd. He needs to show up for all 4 quarters and make his presence known.

[timvp]

Parker's overall game management just wasn't up to par. He never really set a quality pace for the Spurs and can overall play much better. His defense was actually pretty good considering who he is guarding this series.

I was much more impressed with Ginobili's defense compared to his Game 1 effort. In Game 1, he wasn't trying at all on defense. In Game 2, he bought a couple possessions on Carmelo and was fighting him for every inch of space (although the Manu fans told me he wasn't capable of guarding Carmelo). If Manu can fight on defense, that turns him from a liability into an asset on that end of the court.

Offensively, someone seriously needs to tell Manu to stop with the one-handed crossover move. That move hasn't worked in two years. It literally gets stolen every time. He tried it again in Game 2, it got stolen again ... luckily Horry saved the day with the block.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't want Vaughn taking those jumpers.
I don't either, but he has to take them when the other team rotates away from him. By that decree, he should have only taken one of them. My only reason for mentioning it, however, was that someone said they were 10 foot jumpers.

[T Park]

Uh oh, you'll be labeled a Ginobili hater like me :lol

[Phenomanul]

Parker's overall game management just wasn't up to par. He never really set a quality pace for the Spurs and can overall play much better. His defense was actually pretty good considering who he is guarding this series.

I was much more impressed with Ginobili's defense compared to his Game 1 effort. In Game 1, he wasn't trying at all on defense. In Game 2, he bought a couple possessions on Carmelo and was fighting him for every inch of space (although the Manu fans told me he wasn't capable of guarding Carmelo). If Manu can fight on defense, that turns him from a liability into an asset on that end of the court.

Offensively, someone seriously needs to tell Manu to stop with the one-handed crossover move. That move hasn't worked in two years. It literally gets stolen every time. He tried it again in Game 2, it got stolen again ... luckily Horry saved the day with the block.

He seems a step slower on the offensive end for some reason.... Maybe guarding Iverson takes a much bigger toll on him than we thought.... and or Camby is already in his head.

[xamila rey]

i would like to see Manu penetrating more oftern
and either score or get in the FT line.
i get the sense that he is looking for the free man all the time,
instead of attacking the rim and see what happens..
Hopefully he got some confidence back and we see him playing more agressive in Denver.

[Obstructed_View]

What's annoying about Parker is that on a turnover or long rebound he pulls up when he's got two defenders in front of him, which allows the shot blockers to set up. Then when he penetrates he gets swatted. He's also been clubbed to the ground a couple of times; he'll be even less effective if he gets hurt.

Here's another thing the Spurs haven't been doing, which drives me nuts: When one Spur goes to the hoop both the bigs collapse on him, yet nobody else goes to the front of the rim so the shooter has to try to score on two shot blockers. Anyone else notice that?

[gilmor]

Uh oh, you'll be labeled a Ginobili hater like me :lol

TPark, there is a difference between you and LJ.. Whereas LJ brings solid take and analysis every time, all you do is bitch about Manu and bring some stupid takes that do no more than instigate other to pound on you. That's why you suck and need to GTFO!!

[T Park]

That's why you suck and need to GTFO!!

:lmao

Look son, ive been posting here since day 1, a little piss ant like you aint gonna run me out.

Second, I say pretty much the same thing LJ says.

LJ and me agree he was playing unagressive and soft in the first half and ever since after the Horry block, he played like the REAL Ginobili.

Suck it up Gilmor Girl.

[gilmor]

:lmao

Look son, ive been posting here since day 1, a little piss ant like you aint gonna run me out.

Second, I say pretty much the same thing LJ says.

LJ and me agree he was playing unagressive and soft in the first half and ever since after the Horry block, he played like the REAL Ginobili.

Suck it up Gilmor Girl.

Hey Fat BITCH, let me you ask you this question.. Since you quit on Spurs a year ago, why do you return to this forum? I remembered very well that you were done with Spurs, why come back at all?

[aaronstampler]

The difference between Parker and Manu for TPark is simple: Any shot Manu misses is a horrible mistake. Any assist he makes is "him not being aggressive." Because you know, passing is a stupid basketball play. Any turnover he makes is him just sucking ass.


Any shot Parker takes, hit or miss and any turnover he makes is "him being aggressive."

[aaronstampler]

:clap I like that it took an LJ grade post to convince TPark that Tony didn't play very well yesterday. Only 24 hours later than it took the rest of us who were actually watching the game.

[T Park]

Hey Fat BITCH, let me you ask you this question.. Since you quit on Spurs a year ago, why do you return to this forum? I remembered very well that you were done with Spurs, why come back at all?

It was two years ago.

And because I was asked to stay.

Any other questions kiddo?



The difference between Parker and Manu for TPark is simple: Any shot Manu misses is a horrible mistake. Any assist he makes is "him not being aggressive." Because you know, passing is a stupid basketball play. Any turnover he makes is him just sucking ass.



:lol

Not even close, but thanks for playin smartass.


I like that it took an LJ grade post to convince TPark that Tony didn't play very well yesterday. Only 24 hours later than it took the rest of us who were actually watching the game.

I don't remember saying Parker was playing great.


The reason i bag on Ginobili so much is because he can do so much more, but his unagressiveness leaves me dissapointed.

He is the second option and the clutchest player on this team, but him being unagressive kills the team.

Others agreed with me in that he was unagressive up until the Horry block.

[Obstructed_View]

Ever occur to anyone that the guys that are more critical of one player probably like that player more and expect more from him, while they have given up on relying on the other?

[aaronstampler]

Ever occur to anyone that the guys that are more critical of one player probably like that player more and expect more from him, while they have given up on relying on the other?

I tell people this all the time about Tony. When I get on him about not passing it's because I know he can. I don't buy this "he doesn't have court vision" nonsense. Fooey. He has as much as almost any PG except Nash and Kidd.

I seen the boy pass. He had 12 assists in one half against the Clips this year.

[aaronstampler]

The reason i bag on Ginobili so much is because he can do so much more, but his unagressiveness leaves me dissapointed.

He is the second option and the clutchest player on this team, but him being unagressive kills the team.

Others agreed with me in that he was unagressive up until the Horry block.[/QUOTE]

1. He can't do shit if he doesn't have the ball, and for like 80% of the first half the offense ran pretty much through Tim and Tony.

2. I'm not gonna rip anybody for getting assists.

3. I like to think of him as "the second option" too, but it's mostly wishful thinking. He hasn't ever been that. Tony always averages way more shots. He's either the first option, when he's playing with scrubs, or he's 3rd, if he's out there with Tim and Tony.

The only time he's ever a true 2nd option would be either a 4th quarter of a tight playoff game or if Tony is really having a tough game.

Unfortunately, some people confuse 2nd best player with 2nd option.

[Obstructed_View]

I tell people this all the time about Tony. When I get on him about not passing it's because I know he can. I don't buy this "he doesn't have court vision" nonsense. Fooey. He has as much as almost any PG except Nash and Kidd.

I seen the boy pass. He had 12 assists in one half against the Clips this year.
Yeah, I seriously doubt there are many Spurs fans who are rooting for a guy on the team to do bad so they can come in here and slam on him. There might be guys who are only rooting for the Spurs because one of their countrymen is on the roster. Those folks make themselves visible pretty quickly.

[Kori Ellis]

1. He can't do shit if he doesn't have the ball, and for like 80% of the first half the offense ran pretty much through Tim and Tony.

2. I'm not gonna rip anybody for getting assists.

3. I like to think of him as "the second option" too, but it's mostly wishful thinking. He hasn't ever been that. Tony always averages way more shots. He's either the first option, when he's playing with scrubs, or he's 3rd, if he's out there with Tim and Tony.

The only time he's ever a true 2nd option would be either a 4th quarter of a tight playoff game or if Tony is really having a tough game.

Unfortunately, some people confuse 2nd best player with 2nd option.

Though I agree with you saying Manu is usually not being the second option when he's on the floor with Tim and Tony. Tony doesn't average WAY more shots than Manu. On the season, Manu averaged 11.3 shots per game in 27.5 minutes. Tony averaged 14.3 shots per game in 32.5 minutes.

That means Manu shot .41 field goals per minute and Tony shot .44 field goals per minute.

Factor in Manu getting to the line more than Tony and it figures that Manu shoots pretty much the same amount per minute on the floor as Tony does.

Anyway, I'm not arguing any of your points other than "Tony shoots WAY more than Manu". Simply not true.

[timvp]

3. I like to think of him as "the second option" too, but it's mostly wishful thinking. He hasn't ever been that. Tony always averages way more shots.

Not true.

If you factor in free throws as attempted shots (FTA/2), Manu shoots more per minute than Tony does.

FGA per 40 minutes
Tim Duncan - 20.8
Manu Ginobili - 20.2
Tony Parker - 20.1

[aaronstampler]

Anyway, I'm not arguing any of your points other than "Tony shoots WAY more than Manu". Simply not true.[/QUOTE]


That's fair. But Manu takes a big chunk of his shots when he's playing with the scrubs and he's the first option. When he plays with Tim and Tony, he doesn't get to shoot a whole lot.

[aaronstampler]

I never said anything per minute this or anything. I just said Tony shoots more and he always has. It's fairly rare to see a game where Manu has more shots attempted on the box score than Tony.

[timvp]

FGA Per 40 Minutes - 2005 Playoffs
Manu Ginobili - 19.5
Tony Parker - 19.0

Was he "playing with scrubs" during this playoff run too?

[Kori Ellis]

I never said anything per minute this or anything. I just said Tony shoots more and he always has. It's fairly rare to see a game where Manu has more shots attempted on the box score than Tony.

:lol

Well, I think you have to consider per minute for everything with Manu. He doesn't play as much as Tim and Tony. And even if you don't want to talk about per minute, for most of the season, Manu was shooting around 12 FGA and Tony/Tim each around 14 FGA. So factoring in FT's, there's not much difference between Tony and Manu's shot attempts, per minute or not.

[timvp]

I never said anything per minute this or anything. I just said Tony shoots more and he always has. It's fairly rare to see a game where Manu has more shots attempted on the box score than Tony.

Uh yeah because Manu averages like 80% of the minutes Tony averages. You expect Manu to average more attempts in less minutes to be considered the second option?

[BeerIsGood!]

The only thing I care about is that the ball is going to the open man and that the offense is aggressive and creating solid scoring chances that are converted at a high percentage due to the quality of the shots. As to who is actually shooting the ball - doesn't matter.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm bowing out of this thread. I can't waste my 50,000th post here. :lol

[THE SIXTH MAN]

I'm bowing out of this thread. I can't waste my 50,000th post here. :lol
:lol True.

[timvp]

It's amazing how Manu is always the victim and never responsible for his own play. If he isn't scoring, it's because no one was passing it to him. If he's not playing defense, it's because the matchups were bad. If he's not passing the ball well, it's because everyone else was missing shots. If he's not being aggressive, it's because the players around him aren't good enough.

I've never seen a Spur in my history of Spurs fandom who is as untouchable as Manu.

[aaronstampler]

Not true.

If you factor in free throws as attempted shots (FTA/2), Manu shoots more per minute than Tony does.

FGA per 40 minutes
Tim Duncan - 20.8
Manu Ginobili - 20.2
Tony Parker - 20.1


Your numbers are wrong.

I've got 20.3 for Tony. 1096 + 175 (350/2) = 1,271/2,503 mins = .508 x 40 minutes = 20.31.

854 +186 (372/2) = 1040/2064 = .504 x 40 = 20.15

Or you could just simplify it and look at it my way. Tony took 1,096 shots, Manu took 854. That's 242 shots, a bit more than 3 a game.

If only there was some statistic where you could see how many shots a player averages per game. Alas.

[aaronstampler]

It's amazing how Manu is always the victim and never responsible for his own play. If he isn't scoring, it's because no one was passing it to him. If he's not playing defense, it's because the matchups were bad. If he's not passing the ball well, it's because everyone else was missing shots. If he's not being aggressive, it's because the players around him aren't good enough.

I've never seen a Spur in my history of Spurs fandom who is as untouchable as Manu.


The sooner off you realize that Tim and Manu have immunity for life, the happier you'll be. Tony's not there yet. Perhaps one day. ::knocks on wood::

[Kori Ellis]

Your numbers are wrong.

I've got 20.3 for Tony. 1096 + 175 (350/2) = 1,271/2,503 mins = .508 x 40 minutes = 20.31.

854 +186 (372/2) = 1040/2064 = .504 x 40 = 20.15

Or you could just simplify it and look at it my way. Tony took 1,096 shots, Manu took 854. That's 242 shots, a bit more than 3 a game.

If only there was some statistic where you could see how many shots a player averages per game. Alas.

As I said, factoring in free throws - they are very, very close to the same (whether your figures or LJ's are right). You have to agree that Tony doesn't shoot WAY more than Manu (per minute).

[timvp]

Your numbers are wrong.

I've got 20.3 for Tony. 1096 + 175 (350/2) = 1,271/2,503 mins = .508 x 40 minutes = 20.31.

854 +186 (372/2) = 1040/2064 = .504 x 40 = 20.15

Or you could just simplify it and look at it my way. Tony took 1,096 shots, Manu took 854. That's 242 shots, a bit more than 3 a game.

If only there was some statistic where you could see how many shots a player averages per game. Alas.

Before I go back and look at my numbers, your numbers indicate that Tony and Manu shoot almost the exact same number of shots per 40 minutes. You pretty much proved your "Tony shoots way more" theory wrong.

[Kori Ellis]

The sooner off you realize that Tim and Manu have immunity for life, the happier you'll be. Tony's not there yet. Perhaps one day. ::knocks on wood::

Oh Tim doesn't have immunity, most fans destroy Tim compared to how they treat Manu :lol

Damn it, why am I posting?! I have a lot of work to do.

[aaronstampler]

It's amazing how Manu is always the victim and never responsible for his own play. If he isn't scoring, it's because no one was passing it to him. If he's not playing defense, it's because the matchups were bad. If he's not passing the ball well, it's because everyone else was missing shots. If he's not being aggressive, it's because the players around him aren't good enough.

I've never seen a Spur in my history of Spurs fandom who is as untouchable as Manu.


He played like goat ass in Game 1, what do you want?

[timvp]

The sooner off you realize that Tim and Manu have immunity for life, the happier you'll be. Tony's not there yet. Perhaps one day. ::knocks on wood::

Tim is at his own level. He's by far the best player on the team and the player the whole franchise revolves around.

Tony and Manu are great role players. Manu having one great playoff run out of four doesn't give him immunity for life :lol

Maybe for you but certainly not for those of us who are interested in winning more championships.

[timvp]

He played like goat ass in Game 1, what do you want?

Yet who was in the last thread like this complaining that timvp was being too harsh?

[aaronstampler]

Before I go back and look at my numbers, your numbers indicate that Tony and Manu shoot almost the exact same number of shots per 40 minutes. You pretty much proved your "Tony shoots way more" theory wrong.


I feel like I'm Will Farrell in Zoolander here. We're having argument where

I'm saying 1,096 > 854 and you're saying 1,096 = 854.


I don't care who plays more minutes. I'm just saying Player A shoots more than player B and we're arguing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I would humbly suggest kind sir that perhaps Manu should get MORE shots per minute than Tony since you know, he scores more efficiently an' all. That's the goal, right, to get the ball to your efficient scorers?

[aaronstampler]

Yet who was in the last thread like this complaining that timvp was being too harsh?

BECAUSE YOU WERE. This game too.

I don't think Manu (-6 in 32 mins) deserved the same grade as Elson (-11 in 13 mins) in Game 1. Sorry.

The only thing Manu did very badly in game 1 was shoot poorly in the first half. He barely touched the ball the 2nd half and I don't think his defense was any worse than anyone else's. And certainly not worse than Tony's.

[aaronstampler]

Tim is at his own level. He's by far the best player on the team and the player the whole franchise revolves around.

Tony and Manu are great role players. Manu having one great playoff run out of four doesn't give him immunity for life :lol

Maybe for you but certainly not for those of us who are interested in winning more championships.


First off, they wouldn't have won the last championship without that run.

Secondly, it could be argued that he was the best player on the team in said playoff run.

Thirdly, I don't think Manu played all that shabby last year in the playoffs. There must be a reason he led the team in +/- both rounds last year. All anyone remembers is one play.

Finally, I think you need to adjust your definition of role players. Manu and Tony are stars. Horry, Bowen and Brent are role players.

[timvp]

I feel like I'm Will Farrell in Zoolander here. We're having argument where

I'm saying 1,096 > 854 and you're saying 1,096 = 854.

I feel like I'm in Bahia Blanca dealing with an angry Manu mob that doesn't realize that 2503 > 2064. Of course Parker is going to be the one who shoots more shots because he played in more games and played 500 more minutes.

I'm saying they shot almost the exact same amount of shots per minute. You are the first one to point out PER and other per minute stats ... except in this scenario.

Classic :lol


I would humbly suggest kind sir that perhaps Manu should get MORE shots per minute than Tony since you know, he scores more efficiently an' all. That's the goal, right, to get the ball to your efficient scorers?

Why aren't you arguing that Brent Barry should take the most shots on the team? Because you know, Barry is the most efficient scorer on the Spurs.

Let's try that. Next game, Barry should shoot all the shots because he's most efficient player of them all.

Props on the game plan.

[timvp]

BECAUSE YOU WERE. This game too.

I don't think Manu (-6 in 32 mins) deserved the same grade as Elson (-11 in 13 mins) in Game 1. Sorry.

For the 15,000th time, the grades are based on what is expected out of each individual player. Just because two players have the same grade doesn't mean I think they had the same impact on the game.


The only thing Manu did very badly in game 1 was shoot poorly in the first half. He barely touched the ball the 2nd half and I don't think his defense was any worse than anyone else's. And certainly not worse than Tony's.

His defense was horrible. You don't want to believe it, so there's not much you can do. Perhaps you can see his improvement in Game 2 as far as him defending much more physically and with more of a concerted effort.

And although you said he couldn't, Manu actually was capable of buying a few possessions on Carmelo. He was able to do the same in 2005 and in Game 2. But when he got destroyed in Game 1, you were the first one with the ready made Manu excuse.

In both games, Manu hasn't been aggressive enough and still isn't playing well enough considering he's the biggest mismatch the Spurs have offensively. You said it yourself before the series, but now you don't want to put any sort of expectations on him.

[aaronstampler]

Barry should get more shots, definitely. We've had this conversation before. It's not a bad thing when he shoots the ball. If you're gonna wait for me to complain that Barry's shooting too damn much, you're gonna wait an awful long time.

[timvp]

First off, they wouldn't have won the last championship without that run.

They wouldn't have won the championship without Parker, Bowen or Horry, either.

I've said many, many times how great Manu was and how that was one of the best playoff performances I've ever seen. But he wasn't the only indispensable maybe of that team.


Secondly, it could be argued that he was the best player on the team in said playoff run.

Not by anybody who knows there are two sides to a basketball court. While he was as good or a little better than Duncan offensively, Duncan was the far superior defensive presence.


Thirdly, I don't think Manu played all that shabby last year in the playoffs. There must be a reason he led the team in +/- both rounds last year. All anyone remembers is one play.

Good but not 2005 good.


Finally, I think you need to adjust your definition of role players. Manu and Tony are stars. Horry, Bowen and Brent are role players.

Tony and Manu play roles on the Spurs. Neither could win a championship without Duncan or another superstar. That makes them role players ... or great role players as I listed them.

[timvp]

Barry should get more shots, definitely. We've had this conversation before. It's not a bad thing when he shoots the ball. If you're gonna wait for me to complain that Barry's shooting too damn much, you're gonna wait an awful long time.

854 > 425

Why the hell is Manu shooting so much when he should be passing it to a more efficient player?

[aaronstampler]

For the 15,000th time, the grades are based on what is expected out of each individual player. Just because two players have the same grade doesn't mean I think they had the same impact on the game.

With all due respect dude, but if you're gonna give Manu an F for game one and a C- for game 2, then perhaps he should have immunity for life for you because obviously your expectations of him are ridiculous. I think his '05 run spoiled you. He was playing out of his mind for a month, scoring like 1.8 points per shot. It's not something that should be expected regularly. I think he had a "B" game 2. C for 1st half, A for 2nd half.


His defense was horrible. You don't want to believe it, so there's not much you can do. Perhaps you can see his improvement in Game 2 as far as him defending much more physically and with more of a concerted effort.

And although you said he couldn't, Manu actually was capable of buying a few possessions on Carmelo. He was able to do the same in 2005 and in Game 2. But when he got destroyed in Game 1, you were the first one with the ready made Manu excuse.

In both games, Manu hasn't been aggressive enough and still isn't playing well enough considering he's the biggest mismatch the Spurs have offensively. You said it yourself before the series, but now you don't want to put any sort of expectations on him.

He bought a few in Game one as well. Melo or AI didn't score on him every single time they were matched up in the first game, so stop acting like that happened. I still think, if I had to pick, I'd rather have him take AI than Melo because at least there he can't get posted up and he's not at a height disadvantage.

[timvp]

In the playoffs, the two worst Spurs as far as +/- per 100 possession when on the court compared to when they are off the court:

Elson: -32.2
Ginobili: -26.0

No one else on the team is even in the same ball park of those two.

But yeah, timvp is being way too harsh on Ginobili's first two playoff games.

[aaronstampler]

In the playoffs, the two worst Spurs as far as +/- per 100 possession when on the court compared to when they are off the court:

Elson: -32.2
Ginobili: -26.0

No one else on the team is even in the same ball park of those two.

But yeah, timvp is being way too harsh on Ginobili's first two playoff games.


You're gonna go net points on me here, after two games? Get over yourself. In two games Tony is a -1, Manu is a -4. Not a big difference.

[timvp]

With all due respect dude, but if you're gonna give Manu an F for game one and a C- for game 2, then perhaps he should have immunity for life for you because obviously your expectations of him are ridiculous. I think his '05 run spoiled you. He was playing out of his mind for a month, scoring like 1.8 points per shot. It's not something that should be expected regularly. I think he had a "B" game 2. C for 1st half, A for 2nd half.

If expecting him to not be in Elson's range of suck is asking too much out of him, I guess I'm guilty as charged.


He bought a few in Game one as well. Melo or AI didn't score on him every single time they were matched up in the first game, so stop acting like that happened. I still think, if I had to pick, I'd rather have him take AI than Melo because at least there he can't get posted up and he's not at a height disadvantage.

Manu got lit up in Game 1. I'm not sure which game you were watching.

And Manu never has or never will guard AI. First of all, Manu isn't quick enough and second of all, Manu would waste all his energy within 15 minutes of guarding AI.

[aaronstampler]

I guess we should play Brent 48 mins a night from now on then, huh? I guess when it's convenient for you Brent shouldn't be brought up

[timvp]

You're gonna go net points on me here, after two games? Get over yourself. In two games Tony is a -1, Manu is a -4. Not a big difference.

And where are the minutes played? It was relevant when you posted about Elson, but not in this comparison?

The same stats you point to all year to prove how Manu is better than everyone else aren't able to be used when Manu is on the short end of the stick.

Got it.

[aaronstampler]

If expecting him to not be in Elson's range of suck is asking too much out of him, I guess I'm guilty as charged..

By your standard, you should give Elson a C then because you already think he sucks. As bad as he's been, he couldn't have been any worse than you've said he was all year.

[timvp]

Whatever. I give up. You said that Manu was the biggest key coming into this series because no Nugget can guard him. Manu comes out and is putting up +/- that places him at the bottom of the team and yet he should be given passes because it's the fault of others and he's doing the best he can.

I'll ignore my observations that his defense has been sub par, which are also backed up by statistics. I'll ignore that the offense hasn't been as potent as it should be with Manu on the court. I'll just be thankful to have the privilege of watching The Untouchable perform while others are out to bring him down.

Goodnight.

[aaronstampler]

And where are the minutes played? It was relevant when you posted about Elson, but not in this comparison?

The same stats you point to all year to prove how Manu is better than everyone else aren't able to be used when Manu is on the short end of the stick.

Got it.


Um... Manu is -4 in 59 minutes. That means we're losing .06 points every minute he's played.

Elson is -10 in 23 minutes. That's -.43 per minute.

You wanna tell me that -.43 and -.06 is almost the same thing?

[aaronstampler]

Whatever. I give up. You said that Manu was the biggest key coming into this series because no Nugget can guard him. Manu comes out and is putting up +/- that places him at the bottom of the team and yet he should be given passes because it's the fault of others and he's doing the best he can.

I'll ignore my observations that his defense has been sub par, which are also backed up by statistics. I'll ignore that the offense hasn't been as potent as it should be with Manu on the court. I'll just be thankful to have the privilege of watching The Untouchable perform while others are out to bring him down.

Goodnight.


You should give up because you're wrong. I never said he was the biggest key. I said both he and Tony should be able to score a lot against their men. If anything Tony is even more important because he has to guard AI most of the time.

And according to those same statistics you're sighting, Tony's defense has been even worse than Manu's. But thanks for playing.

[timvp]

You should give up because you're wrong. I never said he was the biggest key. I said both he and Tony should be able to score a lot against their men. If anything Tony is even more important because he has to guard AI most of the time.

And according to those same statistics you're sighting, Tony's defense has been even worse than Manu's. But thanks for playing.

:lol @ you trying to act like a bad ass.

You are just a Manu homer of the likes that I've never encountered before. Most members of The Church can admit when Manu isn't playing his best and can *gasp* criticize his play.

Any time you even pretend to criticize Manu, it's always with a backhanded comment aimed at another Spur (usually Tony Parker). I've never seen anything quite like it.

I'm not sure what the root of your Manu obsession is but it's getting old. You point to per minute stats to back up your man and then refuse to give credence to per minutes stats when it's brought back on to you. You are quick to bash every other Spur and put Manu on the highest of high pedestals (Manu > Duncan during the 2005 playoffs, Manu has reached untouchable status, Manu should shoot more shots per year than Parker even though he usually plays 500 to 1000 less minutes per season :lol).

If you can't admit that Ginobili has been a disappointment so far in the playoffs, I'm not sure there is any hope for you. He's far from being the only disappointment so far (as I've said), but of course he's the only one you seem to read about or defend.

[aaronstampler]

Whatever dude. I already pointed out the numbers to you. Elson is -.43 per minute and Manu is -.06, and you're saying they've been equally as bad.

That's -20.6 per 48 for Elson, -3.2 for Manu.

But go ahead and pretend they're close.


We're giving up 96.8 per 48 minutes on defense with him and 101.3 with Tony, but Manu's been the terrible defensive player.


Manu played a D game on in Game 1 and a B game in Game 2. Not an F and a C. That's all I've said. Your stats are ill-researched and out of context. If this is the vein you'd like to go in, then you should advocate Brent Barry playing a lot more and as far as I know, you haven't.

[timvp]

Whatever dude. I already pointed out the numbers to you. Elson is -.43 per minute and Manu is -.06, and you're saying they've been equally as bad.

That's -20.6 per 48 for Elson, -3.2 for Manu.

But go ahead and pretend they're close.

Net Points per 100 Possessions
Francisco Elson (http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06SAS11D.HTM): -32.2
Manu Ginobili (http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06SAS3D.HTM): -26.0

Yeah, they're close. Don't hate, calculate.


We're giving up 96.8 per 48 minutes on defense with him and 101.3 with Tony, but Manu's been the terrible defensive player.

Not everything is life is Tony versus Manu. And I've freakin' said over and over that Parker's defense was bad in Game 1. And since he's actually guarding an NBA player, Parker playing bad defense hurts the Spurs even worse than if Ginobili is playing horrible defense.

But that doesn't change the fact that Ginobili played pathetic defense is Game 1 and improved greatly in Game 2.


Manu played a D game on in Game 1 and a B game in Game 2. Not an F and a C. That's all I've said. Your stats are ill-researched and out of context. If this is the vein you'd like to go in, then you should advocate Brent Barry playing a lot more and as far as I know, you haven't.

You're the one who will only consider stats that make Manu look good. When it doesn't, all of a sudden that type of stat is off limits.

And you're the one that said Manu should shoot more shots on the season than Parker even though Manu plays 500 less minutes because Manu is the more efficient scorer. I pointed out to you that if that is going to be the aaronstampler philosophy, Manu should be deferring to Brent Barry.

Because it seems you need hand holding through the logic, I said that regarding Barry because you seem to have no concept that a player like Manu or Barry is so efficient because they have good shot selection. You can't just feed a highly efficient player constantly and expect them to keep the same level of efficiency. It doesn't work that way. I assumed you understood that, but I must have overestimated.

But keep being the Manu cheerleader. Maybe one day he'll sign your pompoms.

[aaronstampler]

Net Points per 100 Possessions
Francisco Elson (http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06SAS11D.HTM): -32.2
Manu Ginobili (http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06SAS3D.HTM): -26.0

Yeah, they're close. Don't hate, calculate.

You're talking about different things. I'm talking +/-, you're talking net points. They're different stats. +/- is just what happens when Manu's on the floor. Net points shows what happens when he's not. You're being either disingenuous or flat out stupid acting like they're the same stat when they're not.

[timvp]

You're talking about different things. I'm talking +/-, you're talking net points. They're different stats. +/- is just what happens when Manu's on the floor. Net points shows what happens when he's not. You're being either disengunuous or flat out stupid acting like they're the same stat when they're not.

WTF? Can you not read?


In the playoffs, the two worst Spurs as far as +/- per 100 possession when on the court compared to when they are off the court:

Elson: -32.2
Ginobili: -26.0

Got damn. :pctoss

[aaronstampler]

Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing? That's kind a dumb concept. The stat's you make are when you're on the court. When they start showing stats you're making when you're on the bench, that's a mathematician with too much time on his hands.

[aaronstampler]

We've outscored the Nuggets by 3 points in 2 games LJ, and Beno hasn't played. I guess according to the net stat, we can argue he's a +1.5.

[timvp]

Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing? That's kind a dumb concept. The stat's you make are when you're on the court. When they start showing stats you're making when you're on the bench, that's a mathematician with too much time on his hands.

Uh, because if the team is playing better with you on the bench, that's probably not a good sign of how you are playing. This is another example of you trying to all of a sudden not use a stat because it doesn't make Manu look great.

And don't act like you never use net points. Every time you point out that Manu makes all his teammates better, that compares production with Manu on the court with production with Manu off the court. And you bring up that stat more than anyone else on the forum combined.

Amazing.

[aaronstampler]

No, that's a player pairs thing. It's still +/- based.

[timvp]

No, that's a player pairs thing. It's still +/- based.

:rolleyes

Player pairs uses stats accumulated when *gasp* a player isn't on the court to compare to when a player is on the court. If Oberto is a +20 when Manu is on the court and a +10 overall, to even get to that point, you have to look at production from when Manu isn't on the court.

But according to you, that doesn't matter.

Remember?


Why would I care about what happens when someone doesn't play to show how he's playing?

If you don't care about using stats from when a player isn't playing, then you shouldn't care about your favorite "player pairs" stats.

[aaronstampler]

Hey take a wild guess how many seconds Tim Duncan hasn't played in the two games so far when Manu has been on the bench in the two games.

That's right. Zero.

I wonder if it might skew the numbers a bit that the team's best player is always on the court when Manu isn't playing. I wonder.

There's a name for the group of people on the floor when he's sitting Tim, and it's called the starters. Pop is depending on Manu and four scrubs to hold the fort for 10 minutes a night while Tim rests. And he's been a + in both games so far while Tim and Tony were sucking oxygen. And game 2 showed he's pretty good playing with just Timmy too.

The only negative has been when he's played with Tony or both.

[GrandeDavid]

Pop[/b]
Even though the Spurs won, I wasn't very pleased with Pop tonight. There's no way that Duncan should only play 33 minutes in a must-win situation. Especially when Duncan was never in foul trouble. Sitting Duncan at the end of the first half cost the Spurs seven points in two minutes. And then Pop rested him way too long before putting him back in the fourth. I also think he needs to play Elson even less than he is playing him. Offensively, the Spurs aren't posting up Duncan enough and they aren't putting Parker or Manu in positions that they can succeed enough of the time. Either post up Duncan more or isolate Parker and Manu more. Running high post with Duncan or side pick-and-rolls hasn't been effective this series. The offense needs to be simplified to utilize the talent and the lack of defensive players on the Nuggets. Defensively, the Spurs need to be faster about rotating off of Blake or Kleiza. I'd rather see those guys knock down a few shots before I see Nene rolling to the basket or AI and Melo open for three.
Grade: D

I agree that Pop messed up some usage of Duncan's minutes. However, you gotta like the fact that they did get a win with him only playing 33 minutes. That was definitely risky, and had the Spurs lost, Pop would've been bashed to no end. Still, you gotta like Tim Duncan going into Denver confident and as well-rested as he's been in the playoffs in years. His confidence is high because he made key baskets on the offensive end and made some nice defensive plays, including five blocks. I think Duncan will play closer to 40 minutes in Game 3, however.

[T Park]

:lmao

AAron is easily the hardest core of bitch manu homers I've ever seen.

Christ.

"But im not a manu homer"

NAHHHHHH

[aaronstampler]

:lmao

AAron is easily the hardest core of bitch manu homers I've ever seen.

Christ.

"But im not a manu homer"

NAHHHHHH


Coming from a guy who cleans up elephant shit for a living and doesn't actually watch the games, that hurts TPark. It really, really hurts. :depressed

[SequSpur]

Coming from a guy who cleans up elephant shit for a living and doesn't actually watch the games, that hurts TPark. It really, really hurts. :depressed


:lmao :lmao

tparowned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!