Heat from tanker truck collapses steel reinforced overpass

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL


A huge ball of fire from an exploding gasoline tanker melted steel and caused an overpass in the MacArthur Maze near the East Bay end of the Bay Bridge to collapse onto the roadway below early Sunday, virtually ensuring major traffic problems for weeks to come.

The intense heat crumbled the elevated roadway that carried eastbound traffic from the Bay Bridge onto Interstates 580 and 980 and state Highway 24. The broken concrete fell like a blanket over the connector roadway from southbound I-80 to I-880, where the single-vehicle crash occurred.

The tanker, loaded with 8,600 gallons of unleaded gasoline, was heading from a refinery in Benicia to a gas station on Hegenberger Road, in Oakland, shortly before 4 a.m. when it crashed.

Engineers not connected to the incident said the steel underbelly of the I-580 overpass seems to have heated to a sufficient temperature to bend

-- and that movement pulled the roadbed off its supports.


The government obviously planted thermite charges at the site of the collapse to ensure the roadway would collapse.

:spin

[01Snake]

Have they started to investigate Cuban yet?

[PixelPusher]

Oh, come on! We all know jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel!

[Extra Stout]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL




The government obviously planted thermite charges at the site of the collapse to ensure the roadway would collapse.

:spin
So the question is, which member of the Bush family oversaw the construction of that overpass and had something to hide?

[ChumpDumper]

Did any jews have insurance policies on the bridge?

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/04/30/mn_highway_collapse_wxs101.jpg

THERMITE!

[NorCal510]

Have they started to investigate Cuban yet?
cuban did it, he didnt want the warrior fans to make the game.

[NorCal510]

Did any jews have insurance policies on the bridge?
uhhhh not funny :rolleyes

[Extra Stout]

This is easy to unravel.

Who is the governor of California? AHNOLD. He's a REPUBLICAN who despite his faux liberal policies is loyal to the BUSH 9/11 CONSPIRACY!!!

With the LOOSE CHANGE movie fixing to bust out because of the funding by MARK CUBAN, now is the time to launch the POISON PILL.

1) The conspirators STAGE a freeway collapse aided BY SHAPE CHARGES on the overpass beams to make it look like a fuel tanker fire can melt steel.

2) And WHO exactly is in OAKLAND right now? MARK CUBAN!!!!!!! The Repugs/Zionists/9/11 conspirators are sending the message: WE CAN GET TO YOU ANYTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChumpDumper]

cuban did it, he didnt want the warrior fans to make the game.uhhhh not funny :rolleyes

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/04/30/mn_highway_collapse_wxs101.jpg

THERMITE!

:lmao

[Ya Vez]

it's just a conspiracy to make gas prices go up..... sheeesh!!!!

[mookie2001]

those 10 comments were hilarious!...yall sure are sarcastic!

[Phenomanul]

Wait wait wait.......................... did it fall at free fall speed?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

those 10 comments were hilarious!...yall sure are sarcastic!

About as funny as you and others taking all your knuckleheaded conspiracy theories seriously.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i guess bipolar disorder is good enough for 12 touchdowns

[mookie2001]

its so edgy and irreverant comparing this to September 11th, thats funny

[Phenomanul]

its so edgy and irreverant comparing this to September 11th, thats funny


No... it just helps solidify a point about the weakening of steel from fuel fires....

A point that was harped on for about 5 minutes in Loose Change....

[mookie2001]

No... its not funny?, I thought they were all being sarcastic

[ChumpDumper]

We're comparing it to the conspiracy theories of 9/11.

And yes, it's funny. Kinda the Victoria Persecution Complex Syndrome is funny.

[mookie2001]

oh ok. alright so it is funny? like i said then, yall sure are sarcastic

[ChumpDumper]

In the past three years, what tipped you off to the fact we're sarcastic?

[mookie2001]

being so edgy and irreverent

[mookie2001]

its funny though, but not to hemegamoaboa

[ChumpDumper]

His credentials don't include humor recognition.

[smeagol]

The "explosives brough the WTC" theory is rock solid. So rock solid, nobody can make fun of it or the dudes that support it.

[Phenomanul]

His credentials don't include humor recognition.

:lol
I understood the satirical overtones embedded in the posts above my initial one....

Mookie's reluctance to see the relevance of this article to the ongoing 9/11 CT threads around here is what I found humorous... but that was only after the phrase 'conveniently absent' crossed my mind.

[1369]

Now thermite melts concrete?

[RandomGuy]

But no steel reinforced concrete bridge has ever collapsed due to a fire.

The bridge collapse happened on a day that was a Freemason holy ritual day.

Witnesses say they heard explosions, so it must have been a bomb.

They have refused to release the blueprints of the overpass, so they MUST be hiding somehing.

The BBC reported that the bridge collapsed 30 minutes before it actually did.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

[RandomGuy]

its so edgy and irreverant comparing this to September 11th, thats funny

We're not comparing it to 9-11.

We're comparing it to shitty 9-11 conspiracy theories.

BIG difference.:lol

[mookie2001]

oh ok. alright so it is funny? like i said then, yall sure are sarcastic

[Yonivore]

For The First Time In History, Fire Melts Steel

Physicists are baffled by the seemingly impossible (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269118,00.html). Noted structural engineers Rosie O'Donnell and Spurstalk's own Nbadan could not be reached for comment.

::chirp::chirp::chirp::


A section of freeway that funnels traffic off the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge collapsed early Sunday after a gasoline tanker truck overturned and caught fire, authorities said.

The heat from the fire was intense enough to melt part of the freeway and cause the collapse, but the truck's driver walked away from the scene with second-degree burns.
Scientists from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, and CERNE Laboratories are petitioning the government to cordon off the area to keep the site of this unprecedented event pristine enough for scientific investigation. "It's like witnessing the live birth of a new universe," Normal Druvovitch of JPL said. "

Physicist Kip Thorne believes the area may in fact be a "naked singularity," a region in space in which the normal physical laws that govern the universe simply fail to operate. He suggests that the National Guard be activated to surround the area at a "safe distance," in order to keep the curious well away from the site. "Strange energies may be radiating from the wreckage as we speak," Thorne said. "Bizarre forms of radiation, atoms and quarks previously unseen in our reality. Maybe even wizards riding dinosaurs and crazy shit like that."

But, all are awaiting Rosie and Dan to weigh in on the miracle.

[Nbadan]

2000 degrees versus 800 degrees, and where's the melted steel anyway? nuf said...

[Yonivore]

2000 degrees versus 800 degrees, and where's the melted steel anyway? nuf said...
From the same freakin' story:

Witnesses reported flames rising up to 200 feet into the air. Heat exceeded 2,750 degrees and caused the steel beams holding up the interchange from eastbound I-80 to eastbound Interstate 580 above to buckle and bolts holding the structure together to melt, leading to the collapse, California Department of Transportation director Will Kempton said.
Dan, it's official, you are a fucking idiot.

[The_Worlds_finest]

(ofcourse that is so relevent and shouldnt the bottom level have been pancaked by the weight of the second level falling on it?) dripping with sarcasm

But here big guy these are some fires actually in the same ball park as the Skyscraper collapses http://www.infowars.com/images2/world/madrid_fire.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Top_of_windsor_tower_ruins_.jpg/250px-Top_of_windsor_tower_ruins_.jpg

ofcourse in non of these cases the buildings collapsed...and judging fom the photos the fires were much more damaging then the ones in nYC

[johnsmith]

(ofcourse that is so relevent and shouldnt the bottom level have been pancaked by the weight of the second level falling on it?) dripping with sarcasm

But here big guy these are some fires actually in the same ball park as the Skyscraper collapses http://www.infowars.com/images2/world/madrid_fire.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Top_of_windsor_tower_ruins_.jpg/250px-Top_of_windsor_tower_ruins_.jpg

ofcourse in non of these cases the buildings collapsed...and judging fom the photos the fires were much more damaging then the ones in nYC



Wow, how many planes crashed into those buildings?

[The_Worlds_finest]

as many planes that crashed into WTC 7, remember cowboy all aspects of your beloved lie need to stand up to truth

[Extra Stout]

as many planes that crashed into WTC 7, remember cowboy all aspects of your beloved lie need to stand up to truth
How many nearby collapsing skyscrapers crashed into the building shown above?

[johnsmith]

as many planes that crashed into WTC 7, remember cowboy all aspects of your beloved lie need to stand up to truth


I'm not sure I recall anyone saying that WTC 7 collapsed just from fire........could be wrong though........pretty sure I'm not.........but I could be.

[RandomGuy]

as many planes that crashed into WTC 7, remember cowboy all aspects of your beloved lie need to stand up to truth
1) How much thermite would it take to sever the columns?

2) How many man hours would it require to set the thermite?

3) How was the thermite kept in contact with the steel long enough to melt it?

A few more inconvenient questions that can't be answered by the CTer version of things.

Remember they contend that the whole building , BOTH of them, i.e. 220 stories worth of building, came down in this manner.

Thermite takes a few minutes to work on THIN steel objects (it also tends to travel downwards due to gravity, as opposed to sideways through columns).

Considering the massive amount of steel columns (remember, they like to go on endlessly about the 47 core columns, not to mention the perimeter ones), that much steel melting would produce a LOT of heat.

Since they contend the steel MELTED, you are talking enough thermite to melt a LOT of steel.

Can they find evidence of the companies who make this stuff getting large orders for explosives in the months leading up to it?

I suppose the thousands of man hours used in setting thousands of charges in 220 stories of building was probably not volunteer work. Maybe they could find financial records that support this massive effort?

Or maybe they can point out why NO ONE noticed the massive labor effort and tons of materials moving into the buildings?

[johnsmith]

How many nearby collapsing skyscrapers crashed into the building shown above?



Ah, nevermind, ES already pointed out what an idiot you are.

[RandomGuy]

Ask these ass-clowns a few simple questions:

1) How much thermite would it take to sever the columns?

2) How many man hours would it require to set the thermite?

3) How was the thermite kept in contact with the steel long enough to melt it?

A few more inconvenient questions that can't be answered by the CTer version of things.

Remember they contend that the whole building , BOTH of them, i.e. 220 stories worth of building, came down in this manner.

Thermite takes a few minutes to work on THIN steel objects (it also tends to travel downwards due to gravity, as opposed to sideways through columns).

Considering the massive amount of steel columns (remember, they like to go on endlessly about the 47 core columns, not to mention the perimeter ones), that much steel melting would produce a LOT of heat. Did anybody on the lower floors report such heat? If that much heat was used, why was there not more evidence of fire and heat?

Since they contend the steel MELTED, you are talking enough thermite to melt a LOT of steel.

Can they find evidence of the companies who make this stuff getting large orders for explosives in the months leading up to it?

I suppose the thousands of man hours used in setting thousands of charges in 220 stories of building was probably not volunteer work. Maybe they could find financial records that support this massive effort?

Or maybe they can point out why NO ONE noticed the massive labor effort and tons of materials moving into the buildings?

[johnsmith]

1) How much thermite would it take to sever the columns?

2) How many man hours would it require to set the thermite?

3) How was the thermite kept in contact with the steel long enough to melt it?

A few more inconvenient questions that can't be answered by the CTer version of things.

Remember they contend that the whole building , BOTH of them, i.e. 220 stories worth of building, came down in this manner.

Thermite takes a few minutes to work on THIN steel objects (it also tends to travel downwards due to gravity, as opposed to sideways through columns).

Considering the massive amount of steel columns (remember, they like to go on endlessly about the 47 core columns, not to mention the perimeter ones), that much steel melting would produce a LOT of heat.

Since they contend the steel MELTED, you are talking enough thermite to melt a LOT of steel.

Can they find evidence of the companies who make this stuff getting large orders for explosives in the months leading up to it?

I suppose the thousands of man hours used in setting thousands of charges in 220 stories of building was probably not volunteer work. Maybe they could find financial records that support this massive effort?

Or maybe they can point out why NO ONE noticed the massive labor effort and tons of materials moving into the buildings?



Poppycock Random Guy and you know it.

Everyone knows that all these questions can be answered from just a few links to loosechange.com and so on.

[Yonivore]

Well, neither of the structures pictured have the amount of undamaged structure -- and all the associated weight -- piled on top of them that the World Trade Center had above the impact points of the two hijacked airliners.

And, well, just because the four structures (WTC 1, WTC 2, and the two unidentified building in your photos) may contain steel, that doesn't mean their structural limits are the same.

Finally, their is no indication the intensity and composition of the fire involved in each structure was similar -- except for the fact we know the genesis of each of the WTC fires was identical, fully-fueled commercial aircraft, impacting at close to 500 mph.

[RandomGuy]

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

[johnsmith]

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


RG, that information can easily be ignored.........errrrrrr........debated.........er rrrrr.........disproven..........errrrrrrr........ .alright, ignored.

[Extra Stout]

RG, that information can easily be ignored.........errrrrrr........debated.........er rrrrr.........disproven..........errrrrrrr........ .alright, ignored.
Those Jews are very crafty. I'm sure they could have pulled it off.

[RandomGuy]

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/density.htm

One cubic centimeter of Iron weighs 7.8 grams.

This means that a pound is about a 1.5 inch cube.

So for every two inch cube of steel, it would require 1/10 of a pound of thermite.

CTers LOVE to go on about how thick the columns were, and here is where it bites them in the ass.

If it takes .13 pounds of thermite to get steel to 700 degrees, then to get to melting point (2000 degrees if memory serves) would take about two and half times that.

Call it about a third of a pound of thermite PER 1.5 INCH CUBE melted.

Notice that none of the CTers have ever gotten even this far into calculating what their happy fun theory posits.

HOW MANY 1.5 inch cubes are in those "MASSIVELY THICK" columns? Multiply that by the number of columns.
Multiply that by the number of floors.

WHERE THE CHRISTLY HELL DID ALL THAT THERMITE COME FROM?

[The_Worlds_finest]

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/230806wtcplan.jpg

ahhh you figure the 4 5 6 would fall from the damage before number 7 since you know...sorry just look at the map

[The_Worlds_finest]

and as for your "governement reports" you expect me to believe that shit when people within the government did 911....goodness ignorance is bliss

[Nbadan]

How many nearby collapsing skyscrapers crashed into the building shown above?

Which tower directly collapsed on WTC7 again?

[Nbadan]

Originally Posted by Fox News

:lmao

[Yonivore]

:lmao
The quote from from CalTrans, you idiot.

[Nbadan]

(ofcourse that is so relevent and shouldnt the bottom level have been pancaked by the weight of the second level falling on it?) dripping with sarcasm[/U]

Did you see the falling concrete crumble into millions of pieces too?

:hat

[Nbadan]

The quote from from CalTrans, you idiot.

How hot did the WTC fires get again?

[RandomGuy]

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/density.htm

One cubic centimeter of Iron weighs 7.8 grams.

This means that a pound is about a 1.5 inch cube.

So for every two inch cube of steel, it would require 1/10 of a pound of thermite.

CTers LOVE to go on about how thick the columns were, and here is where it bites them in the ass.

If it takes .13 pounds of thermite to get steel to 700 degrees, then to get to melting point (2000 degrees if memory serves) would take about two and half times that.

Call it about a third of a pound of thermite PER 1.5 INCH CUBE melted.

Notice that none of the CTers have ever gotten even this far into calculating what their happy fun theory posits.

HOW MANY 1.5 inch cubes are in those "MASSIVELY THICK" columns? Multiply that by the number of columns.
Multiply that by the number of floors.

WHERE THE CHRISTLY HELL DID ALL THAT THERMITE COME FROM?

Waitin on the answer to this gem...

[Nbadan]

Since they contend the steel MELTED, you are talking enough thermite to melt a LOT of steel.

It wouldn't have taken as much termite, or other extremely hot burning material, as you might think. I've seen estimates of a 3" wide layer of thermite either sprayed or applied to steel beams would have been sufficient.

[Yonivore]

How hot did the WTC fires get again?
Hot enough to affect the structural integrity, I would imagine.

[Nbadan]

Hot enough to affect the structural integrity, I would imagine.

Hot enough to affect the structural integrity of basement floors?

[Extra Stout]

ahhh you figure the 4 5 6 would fall from the damage before number 7 since you know...sorry just look at the map

Did you know that a 47-story building weighs more than a 9-story building?

[RandomGuy]

It wouldn't have taken as much termite, or other extremely hot burning material, as you might think. I've seen estimates of a 3" wide layer of thermite either sprayed or applied to steel beams would have been sufficient.


How many man hours would this have taken?

[Extra Stout]

and as for your "governement reports" you expect me to believe that shit when people within the government did 911....goodness ignorance is bliss
Oh, I see, you already have your mind made up, we shouldn't confuse you with facts or evidence.

[RandomGuy]

It wouldn't have taken as much termite, or other extremely hot burning material, as you might think. I've seen estimates of a 3" wide layer of thermite either sprayed or applied to steel beams would have been sufficient.


Tell me then, a rough approximation, how much per column would it have taken?

1 pound?
10?
20?

[Nbadan]

Tell me then, a rough approximation, how much per column would it have taken?

1 pound?
10?
20?

Nah, that's too high...I'll have a looksy for the article..

[RandomGuy]

It wouldn't have taken as much termite, or other extremely hot burning material, as you might think. I've seen estimates of a 3" wide layer of thermite either sprayed or applied to steel beams would have been sufficient.

How would this thermite have been kept in place instead of running down the column when it started burning?

[Nbadan]

How many man hours would this have taken?

Let's not forget the unprecedented power-downs and reports of strange workers in both towers prior to 911.

[RandomGuy]

Let's not forget the unprecedented power-downs and reports of strange workers in both towers prior to 911.

You didn't answer my question.

How many labor hours?

[The_Worlds_finest]

Oh, I see, you already have your mind made up, we shouldn't confuse you with facts or evidence.


It would be so much easier to disprove all the 911 complication had all the evidence not been recycled or pressed into commemarative coins in such a rushed manner..

[RandomGuy]

Nah, that's too high...I'll have a looksy for the article..

NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius

Melting point of steel 2000 degrees

.13*2000/700=.37 pounds of thermite per pound of steel to melt steel.

1 pound of steel is 1.5 cubic inches.

so this would be 1 pound of thermite per 4 square inches of steel assuming that one applied that in a 1 inch band laterally, and only melted the first cubic inch. (I assume the column is more than an inch thick, so this would not be sufficient to melt all the way through)

It would then be a simple matter to measure around the column with a tape measure say at least 3, maybe 5 feet in circumfence?

Five feet divided by 4 inches would yield 15 pounds of thermite per column, just to melt a ring of one cubic inch and not all the way through.

if the column is further around, it is more, if the column is thicker than an inch, it is more.

15*47 columns=705 pounds per floor
705 pounds per floor times 100 floors=77550 pounds per building
times two buildings =77.55 TONS of thermite AT A MINIMUM.

Tell me again where the invoice for all this is?

Surely that much thermite would be a MAJOR order for the company that made it.

Find that invoice, and you convince me. ;)

[Extra Stout]

It has already been shown by photographic evidence that the agencies investigating the disaster held on to steel beams and other debris for quite a while, but I choose to ignore that because it doesn't fit what I want to believe.

[Nbadan]

How would this thermite have been kept in place instead of running down the column when it started burning?

the amount of burn down would be dependent on the amount of thermite applied and the angle and method of application. It's more likely thermite would be used to weaken the steel, much like your theory on fire.

[The_Worlds_finest]

ofcourse you cant post link

[The_Worlds_finest]

ofcourse you cant post link to the alleged photos

[Nbadan]

thermite would pull into liquid metal....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/82/Velp-thermitewelding-1.jpg

Shortly after this, the liquid iron flows into the mold around the rail gap.

[RandomGuy]

the amount of burn down would be dependent on the amount of thermite applied and the angle and method of application. It's more likely thermite would be used to weaken the steel, much like your theory on fire.

Remember my calculations provide a very minimal figure, so you are still talking something on the order of a hundred tons to realistically be able to do what you say happened.

There were a few reports of "odd" work crews, but if there were guys constantly going in and out of EVERY floor, surely that would have been remarked on a bit more than it was by survivors, wouldn't it?

There is no "angle" for a vertical column.

If that layer of crap was everywhere it would have taken one small crew MONTHS to wire the buildings in the manner you describe. Say 10 minutes per column*47*110*2=103400 minutes= <b>43 solid days of 8 hour work for a five man team.</b>
TIMES TWO.

IF no one really noticed the stuff sticking to the columns with detonators attached to it in that month.


This shit never pans out when you actually think about what would have been involved.

[RandomGuy]

thermite would pull into liquid metal....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/82/Velp-thermitewelding-1.jpg

Shortly after this, the liquid iron flows into the mold around the rail gap.
Here the thermite is placed on top of the iron and held there by a crucible.

How is that possible for a vertical column?

[Nbadan]

Thermite used for military purposes...


Because of the difficulty in igniting standard iron-thermite, plus the fact that it burns with practically no flame and has a small radius of action, standard thermite is rarely used on its own as an incendiary composition. It is more usually employed with other ingredients added to enhance its incendiary effects.

Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 is as an incendiary, it will also weld metal surfaces together.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite)

[Extra Stout]

ofcourse you cant post link to the alleged photos
Have you even bothered to read these 9/11 threads on this forum?

How lazy are you exactly?

[The_Worlds_finest]

atleast you arent falling back to "you just hate america"

[Nbadan]

So the question becomes, were there traces of barium nitrate or other unexplainable chemical compounds found at the WTC site? Anyone?

[RandomGuy]

Thermite used for fluffy bunnies.


I see you are still dodging questions.

It would have taken months to wire the buildings with a five person crew working solid shifts, and hundreds of tons of thermite, IF it could be held to the columns, IF no one noticed the stuff sticking to every column, IF no one noticed this 5 person crew was everywhere in both buildings.

43 days per building means about 9 weeks per building, assuming our demolishers took weekends. Even evil has to BBQ eventually.

This would mean that for 5 months, NO ONE noticed these guys placing the TONS of explosives?

[RandomGuy]

So the question becomes, were there traces of barium nitrate or other unexplainable chemical compounds found at the WTC site? Anyone?

No you answer my questions first.

IF HUNDREDS OF TONS of thermite was required to bring down the buildings, then it should have been REALLY easy to find this stuff in large concentrations.

This still avoids all my physics questions by the way.

would simply point back to the amount of kinetic energy involved.

REMEMBER THIS IS JUST THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY/FORCE IN THE FIRST 11 METERS OF THE 400+ METER COLLAPSE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PE = m x g x h

Consider the mass of just the top floor of the building.

PE= m *9.8*413= 4073m

Mass is, by definition, simply a measurement of how much force a given amount of material will exert AT REST on an object that is resisting gravity.

SOOOO

The top floor would hit the ground with the same force as a 4073 story building, if that fall was unimpeded.

Now let's consider the fall of the top 30 stories.

They fell through the 3-5 floors of damaged sections and impacted the building below with some amount of force.

Let's call the distance accelerated as 3 floors and be generous. This is 11 meters.

Acceration of an object for 11 meters at 70% of gravity(dan's figure), would yeild an ending velocity of:


v^2= 2ad=2*9.8*.7*11=150=v^2, find the square root of 150, and bada bing, you get 12 meters per second

Substitute this into the kinetic energy equation:
ke= 150*.5*m=ke=75m

This means the 30 foot section impacts the undamaged portion with the kinetic energy of SEVENTY FIVE TIMES ITS MASS.

Think about this for a moment.

The lower section of the building is designed to hold that 30 stories stationary plus a safety margin of 10 or 20%. So the maximum force that the underlying structure could apply to that falling section is 1.2 times its mass.

Further:
That falling section having as much kinetic energy as 75 times its mass means that it is effectively applying the same amount of force at the impact point that a 2270 story building would. if you held it stationary. (simple math: 30*75)
For the statement "the building would not have collapsed without explosives" implies that the building could have been TWENTY TWO TIMES TALLER THAN IT ACTUALLY WAS without collapsing. :rolleyes

STILL FURTHER

Your calculations seem to imply that the building structure below could absorb 30% of the falling energy.

IN JUST THE FIRST 11 METERS OF A 400 METER COLLAPSE THERE IS 62 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF FORCE REQUIRED TO COLLAPSE THE BUILDING.

Your assumption of about 1/3 the energy used to collapse the building is about 20 times what is reasonable. (1/62*20= 1/3) (more actually, if you consider the further distance and mass)

What happens, then when MORE mass is added AND accelerated?

Even if half the mass falls away or off to the side, there is still FAR more force and energy than would be needed to collapse the building WITHOUT ANY EXPLOSIVES.

[Nbadan]

I see you are still dodging questions.

It would have taken months to wire the buildings with a five person crew working solid shifts, and hundreds of tons of thermite, IF it could be held to the columns, IF no one noticed the stuff sticking to every column, IF no one noticed this 5 person crew was everywhere in both buildings.

43 days per building means about 9 weeks per building, assuming our demolishers took weekends. Even evil has to BBQ eventually.

This would mean that for 5 months, NO ONE noticed these guys placing the TONS of explosives?

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

[Nbadan]

No you answer my questions first.

IF HUNDREDS OF TONS of thermite was required to bring down the buildings, then it should have been REALLY easy to find this stuff in large concentrations.

This still avoids all my physics questions by the way.

would simply point back to the amount of kinetic energy involved.

REMEMBER THIS IS JUST THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY/FORCE IN THE FIRST 11 METERS OF THE 400+ METER COLLAPSE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PE = m x g x h

Consider the mass of just the top floor of the building.

PE= m *9.8*413= 4073m

Mass is, by definition, simply a measurement of how much force a given amount of material will exert AT REST on an object that is resisting gravity.

SOOOO

The top floor would hit the ground with the same force as a 4073 story building, if that fall was unimpeded.

Now let's consider the fall of the top 30 stories.

They fell through the 3-5 floors of damaged sections and impacted the building below with some amount of force.

Let's call the distance accelerated as 3 floors and be generous. This is 11 meters.

Acceration of an object for 11 meters at 70% of gravity(dan's figure), would yeild an ending velocity of:


v^2= 2ad=2*9.8*.7*11=150=v^2, find the square root of 150, and bada bing, you get 12 meters per second

Substitute this into the kinetic energy equation:
ke= 150*.5*m=ke=75m

This means the 30 foot section impacts the undamaged portion with the kinetic energy of SEVENTY FIVE TIMES ITS MASS.

Think about this for a moment.

The lower section of the building is designed to hold that 30 stories stationary plus a safety margin of 10 or 20%. So the maximum force that the underlying structure could apply to that falling section is 1.2 times its mass.

Further:
That falling section having as much kinetic energy as 75 times its mass means that it is effectively applying the same amount of force at the impact point that a 2270 story building would. if you held it stationary. (simple math: 30*75)
For the statement "the building would not have collapsed without explosives" implies that the building could have been TWENTY TWO TIMES TALLER THAN IT ACTUALLY WAS without collapsing. :rolleyes

STILL FURTHER

Your calculations seem to imply that the building structure below could absorb 30% of the falling energy.

IN JUST THE FIRST 11 METERS OF A 400 METER COLLAPSE THERE IS 62 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF FORCE REQUIRED TO COLLAPSE THE BUILDING.

Your assumption of about 1/3 the energy used to collapse the building is about 20 times what is reasonable. (1/62*20= 1/3) (more actually, if you consider the further distance and mass)

What happens, then when MORE mass is added AND accelerated?

Even if half the mass falls away or off to the side, there is still FAR more force and energy than would be needed to collapse the building WITHOUT ANY EXPLOSIVES.


Free fall collapse explained (http://www.checktheevidence.com/911/Collapse%20of%20Towers.swf)

[The_Worlds_finest]

the burning question is more likely since the terrorist discovered a new way to bring down mighty buildings in such a proficient manner are all the controlled demolition experts going to take advantage of this cheap method...just replace the airplanes with a couple heavy explosions, and start a fire using jet fuel

[Nbadan]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

[Extra Stout]

the burning question is more likely since the terrorist discovered a new way to bring down mighty buildings in such a proficient manner are all the controlled demolition experts going to take advantage of this cheap method...just replace the airplanes with a couple heavy explosions, and start a fire using jet fuel
No, because the point of controlled demolitions is to bring down buildings safely, without damaging surrounding buildings. The WTC collapses were not very safe, they released a lot of toxic debris and dust, and chunks of the buildings ripped holes into other buildings.

The part where the buildings fall towards the earth is a result of a force inherent in matter called gravity.

[Extra Stout]

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.
Or, you could fly a jet aircraft into those floors.

[Nbadan]

Worthwhile sites...

Critique of Official Collapse Theories of the Twin Towers (http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/collapse/index.html)

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html] (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html)

One of the NIST engineers, Ronald Hamburger, gave a talk last December "Conspiracy or Science: Why Did the Towers Fall?". Unfortunately there's no transcript available, but there's a critique here:

Conspiracy or science? (911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/hamburger.html). I find it interesting that this guy apparently didn't even know how many core columns there were! (47)

[RandomGuy]

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

But the explosion theory says that the underlying building fell at free fall speeds.

This is impossible unless you take out all the support on each sequential floor, making it NOT quite a "strategic" manuever.

Get your theories straight.

[RandomGuy]

Free fall collapse explained (http://www.checktheevidence.com/911/Collapse%20of%20Towers.swf)

I'm not clicking on any of your damn links until you read the NIST report.

[Phenomanul]

Thermite used for military purposes...



Because of the difficulty in igniting standard iron-thermite, plus the fact that it burns with practically no flame and has a small radius of action, standard thermite is rarely used on its own as an incendiary composition. It is more usually employed with other ingredients added to enhance its incendiary effects.

Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 is as an incendiary, it will also weld metal surfaces together.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite)

2.0% sulfur??? If that much sulfur had been involved people would have immediately died from breathing SO2 at ground zero. SO2 can be fatal at 500 ppm. Especially since you all claim that the thermite fires were still raging weeks after 9/11.

[Phenomanul]

I'm not clicking on any of your damn links until you read the NIST report.

That link stalled my computer....

[Extra Stout]

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.
The videos show that once the "hinge" of remaining supports at the 80th floor gave out, the top portion of the building fell down into the rest of the building.

[Phenomanul]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

The concerns of your observation are only valid when the fulcrum is fixed. Clearly the fulcrum was also moving (down towards earth) because the gravitational force exceeded and superceded the angular momentum that was generated at the onset of rotation.

[Nbadan]

2.0% sulfur??? If that much sulfur had been involved people would have immediately died from breathing SO2 at ground zero. SO2 can be fatal at 500 ppm. Especially since you all claim that the thermite fires were still raging weeks after 9/11.

The FEMA-sponsored Building Performance Study of 2002 contains evidence of melted steel caused by sulfidation and oxidation. This is found in the "Limited Metallurgical Examination" written by Professor Jonathan Barnett. Liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown.

Virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA's volunteer investigators did manage to perform "limited metallurgical examination" of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study (http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html). Prior to the release of FEMA's report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.

The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.

[CavsSuperFan]

Maybe if Americans did not drive 10mpg SUV’s, we would not have so many tanker trucks on the road, driving at unsafe speeds, just to rush fuel to the local Exxon Station...

Just a thought... :smokin

[ChumpDumper]

Is so obvious that the black ops folks brought down the overpass in an attempt to discredit the truth movement. It's no coinicidence that it happened in a large media market about as far away from New York as possible.

[RandomGuy]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

None of which addresses how much Kinetic energy was present in that falling mass that was applied as force to the underlying structure after a known distance of falling.

[RandomGuy]

The FEMA-sponsored Building Performance Study of 2002 contains evidence of melted steel caused by sulfidation and oxidation. This is found in the "Limited Metallurgical Examination" written by Professor Jonathan Barnett. Liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown.

Virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA's volunteer investigators did manage to perform "limited metallurgical examination" of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study (http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html). Prior to the release of FEMA's report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.

The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.

Note:

Sheetrock is composed of gypsum.

General Gypsum Information. Chemical Formula: CaSO4·2(H2O)
18% sulphur by weight
http://webmineral.com/data/Gypsum.shtml


Is it surprising that sulphur was found?

[Nbadan]

None of which addresses how much Kinetic energy was present in that falling mass that was applied as force to the underlying structure after a known distance of falling.

I've already conceeded that there was enough Kinetic Energy presented by the upper falling floors to theoretically crush the remaining lower floors under the right conditions, so why beat a dead horse?

[johnsmith]

so why beat a dead horse?



Kind of an ironic comment considering how many threads there are dedicated to basically the same subject.

[Phenomanul]

Note:

Sheetrock is composed of gypsum.

General Gypsum Information. Chemical Formula: CaSO4·2(H2O)
18% sulphur by weight
http://webmineral.com/data/Gypsum.shtml


Is it surprising that sulphur was found?


That type of sulfur wouldn't ellicit sulfidation attack.... only reduced sulfur species like mercaptans, H2S or elemental sulfur could do that...

Some fireproofing materials, especially those from the 60's and 70's, contained reduced sulfur species... In fact it was considered a contaminant. Not knowing exactly what brand of fireproofing insulation was used on the WTC beams keeps me from speculating, but if I had to guess I would venture to say it contained suficient sulfur to promote sulfidation.

And nbadan before you conjecture past your audience consider this: one of the units that I tend to in the refinery is the sulfur plant. No one here knows more about sulfur than I do.

[sabar]

Where did this retarded thermite theory come from? Thermite is such a niche incindiary, there is no reason to choose this of all explosives. The theory is needlessly complicated when you look at the ridiculous amount of thermite you would need to melt columns. You'd be better off just using plain gunpowder and concussive force than complex melting.

[ChumpDumper]

Or a plane.

[smeagol]

Or a plane.
A plane?

What a stupid theory! :lol

Where's the fun if it were simply planes with terrorist pilots who brought down the WTC?

How could inquisitive minds burn the amount of brain cells needed to come up with convoluded theories about explosives and missiles, if it was just commercial airplanes what brought down the towers?

chump, you're nuts!

[RandomGuy]

The concerns of your observation are only valid when the fulcrum is fixed. Clearly the fulcrum was also moving (down towards earth) because the gravitational force exceeded and superceded the angular momentum that was generated at the onset of rotation.

Waaaaay over their heads dude.

They still can't get the basic laws of motion down, so high-falutin' stuff like this might as well be in Chinese.

[RandomGuy]

I've already conceeded that there was enough Kinetic Energy presented by the upper falling floors to theoretically crush the remaining lower floors under the right conditions, so why beat a dead horse?

I must have missed that one.

Ok then.

[xrayzebra]

It's a plane, no it's Superman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haven't we had enough of the arguments on WTC and 9/11?
Or we just going to go on feeding the animals?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It wouldn't have taken as much termite, or other extremely hot burning material, as you might think. I've seen estimates of a 3" wide layer of thermite either sprayed or applied to steel beams would have been sufficient.

Link please.


Let's not forget the unprecedented power-downs and reports of strange workers in both towers prior to 911.

Link please

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

But you've said there was explosives on every floor, that that's what we all saw was the explosion of every floor.

Way to own yourself in your own argument. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Let's not forget the unprecedented power-downs and reports of strange workers in both towers prior to 911.I imagine in the entire history of the building and all the contrsruction and retrofitting therein there has been a similar power down at least once.

And the power down and "strange" workers were in one half of one tower. Not both. Why do you try to sneak stuff like this in?

[Extra Stout]

But you've said there was explosives on every floor, that that's what we all saw was the explosion of every floor.

Way to own yourself in your own argument. :lol
If just one person following this thread shows up at the next International A.N.S.W.E.R. rally, dan has done his job.

Remember, to him, it's all about "building coalitions based on ideas," not proving facts.

[xrayzebra]

Oh well, at the present rate they will have the
freeway back open before this discussion is
concluded. Arnold said 10 days it will back in
operation. And WTC will be rebuilt in a few
years and on and on and on......

[Extra Stout]

Oh well, at the present rate they will have the
freeway back open before this discussion is
concluded. Arnold said 10 days it will back in
operation. And WTC will be rebuilt in a few
years and on and on and on......
See...SEE!!! They are rushing the evidence away before anyone can analyze it!!