Various Articles On The Brawl/Suspensions

[pooh]

Pacers Co-Owner Herb Simon’s Statement

"While we do not condone some of the actions of the players involved, we do consider the action taken Sunday by the National Basketball Association to be unprecedented and inappropriate based on the circumstances. We believe that there was a rush to judgment and not enough opportunity for all sides to be heard. We will vigorously support our players in any available appeal process in order to have these penalties reviewed and reduced. We owe that much to our players, our fans and our community.”

Link (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/suspensions_simon_041121.html)

[Marcus Bryant]

He could have saved some time and space by releasing the following statement:

"We're fucked."

-MB

[ducks]

classless


rush they waited tell this afternoon

it happened on friday night

they suspeneed right away but not number of games tell today so they coudl think and not rush into how many games

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:rolleyes

Friday night, Carlisle said they'd take whatever the league gave out and deal with it.

Now they just issued a statement saying that the league rushed to judgment, the suspensions were unprecedented and unneccessary, and they will appeal, stand behind their players, and do everything they can to help their players.

So much for the moral high ground.

[T Park]

We believe that there was a rush to judgment


who the hell is this guy, John Kerry?


Rush to judgement my ass. Your nutzoid player fucked up, and your gonna pay the price for not disciplining the asshole.

Your fault, now pay for it.

[pooh]

That was co-owner Herb Simon's statement, not Carlisle's

[Duff McCartney]

This falls into the Rick Carlisle school of empty stats.

[Kori Ellis]

AHF -- I merged your thread into this one. It was the same thing.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Rushed? He's lucky his starting five isn't in jail.

I think Marcus covered it.

Kori, thanks.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

who the hell is this guy, John Kerry?

Hey Park.

If I make a thread about deciding to cook a turkey v. going to buy a pre-made meal on Thanksgiving, can you make THAT into a Kerry/Bush thread, too?

[FromWayDowntown]

I got to thinking about Simon's statement this morning and I think, as much as anything else, it's a PR move for the franchise to save face with its fans. The fans pay good money to see a team that will be competitive. Today, Pacers fans want hope, as much as anything else -- Simon suggests that there might be hope, because the suspensions might be shortened. It's not as if he said there should be no suspensions. I think his statement is just a "We've got your back" and "We feel your pain" message to Pacer fans.

[IcemanCometh]

[/QUOTE]who the hell is this guy, John Kerry?[QUOTE]

So Ron Artest is Bush?

[Jimcs50]

AHF, can you make your sig pic smaller? I get tired scrolling past it all the time. We get it, you like Manu. :)

[gophergeorge]

AHF, can you make your sig pic smaller? I get tired scrolling past it all the time. We get it, you like Manu. :)


Ya... What he said!

:)

[Duff McCartney]

Just saw ESPN right now...and I know you guys might hate him although I think he's hilarious, he said that the guy he wanted to see get an even bigger suspension was Stephen Jackson.

He said that Artest was provoked to go into the stands, Jackson had no provocation and just went in and started throwing punches. He wants Jackson to be suspended for even longer than he did.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I was shocked, but I actually agreed with Stephen A. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen again, though.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yeah, I thought the same thing -- I couldn't believe that I agreed with Stephen A. about something. I can't believe the willingness of the former players to blindly rationalize the unjustifiable acts of their compadres, and I've noticed that Greg Anthony at least has backed away from that position a bit. It was terrible on Friday night.

In this whole thing, I found it odd that the ultimate peacemaker in Detroit appeared to be Rasheed Wallace, while the voice of reason on television was Stephen A. Smith. The world really is a strange place anymore. . . .

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Yeah, SAS pretty much made a damn good point with this.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Well, I don't care what anybody says...I still enjoyed the hell out of the running cold-cocking J. O'Neal laid on that fat-ass crybaby.

:lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Rasheed makes peace, Stephen A. makes sense...I think we may be looking at the end times. I'm going to go start building a bunker and stocking up on food and water. In the mean time here are some more apocolyptic predictions.

1.Kobe will have 20 assists.
2.Rasho will tear down a rim.
3.Sprewell's kids will actually starve on his meager 7 mil salary.
4.Warriors vs. Bobcats in the finals.

[AlamoSpursFan]

:lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

What a joke. In just about all the stuff that Mark Jackson has done for ESPN he's plead for sympathy for Ron Artest, saying that all of his crap in the last year has been a cry for help and now hopefully he can get some. Well, I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for Artest but I agree that if these weren't "cries for help" they were damn strong warning signs. Pacers management needed to do something last year when he got suspended umpteen times. Sure he has a problem with authority but someone needed the guts to say, "Ron, you've got a rage problem. You're benched until you see a shrink." They didn't show the balls to do the right thing for a year now and their chickens have come home to roost.

[Medvedenko]

The spurs actually having a personality....the end times indeed....

[2pac]

The spurs actually having a personality....the end times indeed....

By personality, do you mean the Spurs are now getting AIDS from cheating on their wives, making fun of the race of other star players or raping teenagers?

Cause, I am not sure we have personality anymore.

[Dex]

Come on now. We have those Tim Duncan HEB commercials. :)

[Rummpd]

The day Stephen Smith "gets something" is the day the earth standstill and I read him daily in the Philadelphia Rags. Remember that he first called for the fans backs on prime TV instead of the players openly and is now covering his own tail.
He is an absolute idiot both in print and on the air and an embarrassment to the "City of Brotherly Love"

MadDoc in Philly

[JoeChalupa]

I agree. S. Jackson was floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee.

[PeterBurns]

The Battle Royale
Monday, November 22, 2004 at 2:41pm

I wish it was clean cut. It would be nice to take one stance on the Ron Artest melee and feel confident about it. Here's mine.....


It's simple.
You know what's to blame for the Ron Artest-City of Detroit free for all? It's not one player, one fan, or one (very well arched) $8.75 Bud Light. It's a symbol.

The ever important $

David Stern could take the lesson learned from the horrible melee at Pistons game last week and really make implement changes to prevent such incidents in the future, but he won't. You know why?

The ever important $

David Stern is not a commissioner of a professional sports league. He is the CEO of a product that earns millions of dollars in income each year. There is no doubt that there are 2 factors that need to be addressed for this not to happen again in his league, but again, they won't. You know why?

The ever important $

First, you would be straight out lying to yourself if you did not believe that alcohol did not play a major role in the events that transpired on the NBA's Black Friday. If you don't believe that, you must be drunk already. Selling alcohol that late into a blow out rivalry game is the equivalent of inviting Michael Jackson to perform at a Chucky Cheese Pizza party.....you are just asking for trouble.

A commissioner of a league would recognize that fact, and correct it by banning alcohol sales after halftime. He would do so for the sake of the safety of both his fans and players. Yet, A CEO would brush away the idea and live by the motto...."The customer is always right". Futhermore, Sterns motto seems to be..."The Sponsors are never wrong". Stern will place the blame on the players before he bites that beer-soaked hand that feeds him. Because we all know what is more important than the well being of fans and players...

The ever important $

Let's also take a look a what the NBA has prided itself on marketing the past few years. What was once a league of teams, has quickly turned into a league with players and their storylines and THEN the teams they play on. Was their any doubt that the marquee Christmas matchup would be between the "alleged rapist Kobe Bryant-led" Lakers and the "Hell-bent on payback Shaquille O'Neal-led" Heat.

What a pleasent doubleheaders of gems to sit around the Christmas tree and partake in. You just thought it was tough to explain the Terrell Owens, Monday Night Football skit, wait for Christmas Day.

The league likes to market steamy headlines. You know why?

The ever important $

If Stern wants to change the image of his league, he needs to first realize that no matter how many sponsors he fattens his wallet with, if you lose your fan base, you will not have a product to promote. In order to do that, Stern must make decisions that will benefit the players and the fans, and not be blinded by the symbol of.....

The ever important $


Send all comments to [email protected]

[samikeyp]

Nice read Pete. Well done.

[GoSpurs21]

dam republicans already trying to take away my god given right to drink at sporting events after halftime. If we let them take this away from us the next thing they'll want is to take away our god given right to drink during the first half. Then they'll go after our god given right to drink at home watching sporting events (both 1st and 2nd half naturally). Then the sports bars will be closed down. Eventually all drinking establishments and alcoholics beverages will be outlawed.

You laugh but its already happen before in this country.

I'm not against a suspension on beer sales for the Palace, they earned it. But any pre-empted attempt by the republicans to take away our god given right to comsume alcohol responsibly at sporting events must be fought against.

[Marcus Bryant]

One fan's actions which may or may not have been influenced by alcohol consumption does not lead to an indictment of arena beer sales and beer company sponsorship of the NBA.

A more direct and obvious cause of the Motown Melee is the lack of self-control present in Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal. That makes a tad bit more sense. Perhaps it's not popular anymore to count on individuals to be responsible, be they professional athletes or spectators, but it's the first step towards reality.

[Useruser666]

I think this is right on target. Pardon me if this has already been posted.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/saraceno/2004-11-21-saraceno_x.htm

Athletes don't get to cross the line, no matter what
Ron Artest finally got the timeout he wanted. Not a 30-second one, NBA-style. He got the kind of timeout you give out-of-control little boys. He has been appropriately banished to the corner (no, not the neutral corner) for his role in Friday night at the fights.

Commissioner David Stern gave the budding rapper what he wanted all along — a long hiatus from the terribly draining rigors of pro basketball, where the Indiana Pacers forward was to be paid a pauper's purse of $6.2 million this season.

Stern's suspension of Artest for the season should have included mandatory psychiatric and anger-management counseling, plus community service in Detroit, like cleaning public latrines and serving Thanksgiving dinner to the indigent to understand how privileged he is.

Unduly harsh, you say? We're talking about a childish, erratic player who doesn't get it. Artest isn't a "problem player." He is a problem, period — to himself, teammates, the league, fans and his community.

Artest's vigilante form of justice transformed a relatively harmless on-court fracas into a dangerous, full-scale arena riot. He is the person most responsible for possibly the ugliest incident in league history, one where innocent (and not-so-innocent) people were injured and traumatized. The scene was so surreal that Detroit coach Larry Brown picked up a microphone to try and quell the violence and was speechless, and the Pistons' combustible Rasheed Wallace played the unaccustomed role of peacemaker.

Secondly, Artest also has a documented list of temper-tantrum issues longer than Yao Ming's trousers. If Latrell Sprewell received a 68-game suspension for laying his hands on a coach, the commissioner was right in dropping the anvil on Artest's noggin. This is not Dennis Rodman kicking a cameraman or Kermit Washington sucker-punching Rudy Tomjanovich.

This was about assaulting your own customers' psyches, about the widening gulf between fan expectations and player attitudes, about the fast-diminishing product that is pro basketball. In case you haven't noticed, the sport is in shambles and not because of beer sales and security issues.

I'm not saying those fans who acted irresponsibly, and we can assume they were in a minority, should be held blameless. They should be prosecuted and banned forever from the Palace. However, I can't go as far as some analysts and jock-apologists who, in essence, said fans got what they deserved.

ESPN's John Saunders offered a lame analogy after the episode: "If you're walking in Times Square, somebody throws a beer on you, what are you going to do? It's assault, clearly. I don't blame the players for going into the stands." Cohort Tim Legler, a former NBA player, chimed in, "There's not a player in the league (who) would've acted any differently than Ron Artest, especially under the circumstances."

Really? Well, maybe in today's NBA, Tim. But I don't think Oscar Robertson would've reacted that way. Or Jerry West and Walt Frazier. What about Julius Erving? Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson wouldn't have lowered themselves, or the game, by launching into the stands. And I'm sure Tim Duncan, John Stockton and Grant Hill would've found a better solution.

Sorry, but I hold professional athletes, particularly nowadays because of the exorbitant salaries, to a much higher standard. For decades, players have had objects thrown at them and been taunted unmercifully. You don't think Wilt Chamberlain ever had anything fired his way? It didn't appear to me that Artest was hit in the face with that flying cup; it looked as if it struck near his collarbone. No, he flew off the scorer's table an enraged reactionary because he was still simmering over Ben Wallace's shove, not because he was offended, much less hurt, by a cup.

Besides, Artest was prone on a table when the cup hit him. How could he have possibly known who threw it, so how can you justify him going into the stands? What, to attack just anyone? Did you see the fear on those fans' faces? Sure enough, Artest picked the wrong guy because there was no way he could pick the right one.

The Pacers' other big-time cheap-shot artists, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal, also punched fans in the face and are fortunate that Stern was restrained.

There remains a serious civil obligation under the umbrella of pro sports. It is not an unalienable right to play in the NBA, live the life and damn-the-public, as some young, pampered pituitary cases believe. They are not bigger than the league; in this instance, they appear utterly infinitesimal.

[GoSpurs21]

I still cant believe the jackass players have not apologized to the innocent fans they have hurt mentally and physically

I hope that they pay through the nose for their idiotic bahavior

I also hope they get the guy in the white ball cap for ensiting a riot

[Medvedenko]

ESPN's John Saunders offered a lame analogy after the episode: "If you're walking in Times Square, somebody throws a beer on you, what are you going to do? It's assault, clearly. I don't blame the players for going into the stands." Cohort Tim Legler, a former NBA player, chimed in, "There's not a player in the league (who) would've acted any differently than Ron Artest, especially under the circumstances."

I hate that analogy as well..just like if I was working and my co-worker decided to throw a beverage in my direction and smack in my face. Is it assualt, a lack of respect, but I'm fricken working and the code of ethics clearlly applies. Now if it was on the streets, then I guess anything goes. The problem for the Pacer Goons was this was at work, none of this self-defense or streets BS.

[jcrod]

I assume everybody here respects Steve and his opinion.

link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=sk-brawl&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
Crossing the line

by Steve Kerr, Yahoo! Sports
November 20, 2004



Until the cup was thrown, it was business as usual in Auburn Hills.

An intense, physical basketball game; a hard foul by Ron Artest – in retaliation for a hard Ben Wallace foul a minute earlier; an angry response from Wallace; a pushing match, followed by the usual grabbing, holding and yelling as coaches and officials attempted to gain control of the situation. NBA fans have witnessed scenes like this a thousand times before.

It should have stopped there, and it would have – if a stupid fan hadn't thrown a cup at Artest, hitting him in the face.

Players are forced to endure verbal taunting all the time in sports. I once warmed up for a game at Arizona State University while two inebriated fans taunted me about the death of my father. I've had teammates endure all kinds of ugly insults, threats and barbs.

But there always has been an uneasy understanding between these idiotic fans and players that a so-called line wouldn't be crossed. Verbal assaults, ugly as they may be, were to be tolerated.Any physical acts, however, were off limits.


So when Artest was hit in the face by the cup, all bets were off. The line had been crossed, and Artest's response was understandable, if regrettable.

Imagine what any of us would do if a person showed up to our workplace, taunted us and then threw a beer in our face? How many of us would show any restraint at all?

Yes, Artest snapped, and he faces a major suspension from the NBA. So do Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal, who threw multiple punches at fans. Ben Wallace will be penalized for initiating the altercation. David Stern has to send a message to NBA players that under no circumstances will they be allowed to enter the stands to confront taunting fans, even in ugly environments like the one in Detroit on Friday night. I expect suspensions of up to 15 games for each of the three Pacers involved.

That said, I hope that each and every fan involved with the fight will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The fans provoked the fight, not the players. They deserve major punishment. Law enforcement officials have plenty of footage that will implicate dozens of fans guilty of instigating the brawl.

Perhaps the most disturbing shot was seeing dozens of fans showering Pacer players and coaches with popcorn, beer, cups – anything they could get their hands on as the team exited the floor. The mob mentality at that point was incredibly ugly. Fortunately, nobody was seriously injured.

Alcohol almost certainly played a role in this brawl, so I expect the league to enact rules that prohibit its sale, perhaps in the second half of games. But the bottom line is that civil behavior must prevail the next time this sort of thing becomes a possibility. Fans and players alike must show restraint, even as emotions run high and the intensity of a big game boils over.

Fans cannot under any circumstances throw anything on the floor. And players, in turn, can't respond. Innocent people (and small children) are at risk when a player enters the stands.

I expect that both the NBA and Auburn Hills police will come down hard on the participants to make sure an ugly incident like this doesn't happen again.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I think the reason they haven't apologized yet (aside from them being pretty shitty human beings) is that if they apologize they are admitting responsibility to some extent. For now I think they're hiding under a rock and seeing if the public is going to swallow their "I was being disrespected"/"I was backing my teammate"/"It was self defense" line of horse manure. The second the law suits start flying you can bet that public apologies are going to be part of the out of court settlements.

That raises a good question-if you were in the fans positions what would you sue for besides money?

[Marcus Bryant]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2213&ncid=755&e=1&u=/ap/20041122/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl

Fans, Players May Face Charges Over Fight

38 minutes ago

PONTIAC, Mich. - Fans, players and other team personnel could face criminal charges for their roles in a brawl that broke out at the end of an Indiana Pacers (news)-Detroit Pistons (news) game at The Palace of Auburn Hills, a prosecutor said on Monday.

Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca said he repeatedly viewed a videotape of the melee at Friday night's game. He said authorities have identified and questioned a fan who they say threw a cup that hit Indiana's Ron Artest and started the brawl.

A resident of West Bloomfield Township confirmed in a telephone conversation with Auburn Hills police that he is that fan, Gorcyca said Monday. However, he failed to show up for a scheduled in-person interview, and authorities have lost contact with him.

"Once he has an attorney, we anticipate being able to interview him again," Auburn Hills police Lt. James Manning said Monday.

Gorcyca said the man most likely would face charges.

"He, I think, precipitated the whole event that transpired in the spectator section," Gorcyca told WXYZ-TV on Sunday. "I think he's going to be facing some criminal charges."

Asked if players would be charged, the prosecutor said: "I don't want to pinpoint players, but I would say yes. Based upon what I've seen, I believe there will be some charges levied against certain players."

Personnel for both teams also are among the circle of people who might face charges, Gorcyca said.

Gorcyca said police have received some witness statements, but he said he doubted any of the players would help the investigation.

"Auburn Hills has made contact with the NBA about player interviews, but I suspect very strongly that they will on advice of counsel probably not cooperate with the investigation," he said.

As Gorcyca spoke Monday, he was on his way to a meeting with Auburn Hills police about the case. He said he doubted any charges would be brought Monday.

The basketball players union is expected to appeal the suspensions.

On Sunday, the NBA suspended Artest for the rest of the season. The league suspended Indiana's Stephen Jackson for 30 games and teammate Jermaine O'Neal for 25. Detroit's Ben Wallace — whose shove of Artest after a foul led to the five-minute fracas — drew a six-game ban, while Pacers guard Anthony Johnson got five games.

Four players — Indiana's Reggie Miller, and Detroit's Chauncey Billups, Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman — were suspended one game apiece for leaving the bench during the initial incident.

"I'm sick about that for Indiana. I'm devastated for them," Pistons coach Larry Brown said. "And we lost our heart and soul."

"We have to make the point that there are boundaries in our games," said NBA commissioner David Stern. "One of our boundaries, that have always been immutable, is the boundary that separate the fans from the court. Players cannot lose control and move into the stands."

All of the suspensions are without pay. Artest will lose approximately $5 million in salary, while O'Neal's suspension will cost him nearly 25 percent of his $14.8 million salary for the current season.

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson began serving their suspensions Saturday.

"I respect David Stern, but I don't think that he has been fair with me in his situation," Artest said in a statement released by the players' union in which he also expressed his regrets.

Artest's penalty was the most severe because of his checkered history. Artest being provoked into running into the stands by a fan who threw a drink did not appear to be a mitigating factor in Stern's decision.

"It was unanimous, one to nothing," Stern said. "I did not strike from my mind the fact that Ron Artest had been suspended on previous conditions for loss of self-control."

The Pacers will be able to place Artest, O'Neal and Jackson on the suspended list and sign players to take their place. Limited to just six players Saturday, Indiana dropped an 86-83 decision to Orlando.

Billups, Coleman and Campbell served their suspensions Sunday. Wallace will be eligible to return Dec. 3 against San Antonio.

Stern took the unusual step of calling a news conference at Madison Square Garden prior to the Knicks-Cavaliers game to announce the suspensions, commenting that Friday night's fracas represented "the worst" of the 20,000 to 25,000 games he has presided over in his more than two decades as commissioner.

"To watch the out-of-control fans in the stands was disgusting, but it doesn't excuse our players going into the stands," Stern said, promising a wide-ranging review that will encompass everything from security procedures to alcohol sales at arenas.

"We have to do everything possible to redefine the covenant between players and fans, and between fans and fans, and make sure we can play our games in very welcoming and peaceful settings," he said.

The NBA also has to "redefine the bounds of acceptable conduct for fans attending our games and resolve to permanently exclude those who overstep those bounds," Stern said.

For Sunday night's home game against the Charlotte Bobcats (news) — Detroit's first outing since the melee — the Pistons doubled the number of armed police to about 20 in the arena and increased other arena security personnel by about 25 percent.

When some spectators lined up to take pictures with Pistons guard Lindsey Hunter on the court before the game, two police officers stood just a few feet away.

Friday night's brawl was particularly violent, with Artest and Jackson bolting into the stands near center court and throwing punches at fans after debris was tossed at the players.

Later, fans who came onto the court were punched in the face by Artest and O'Neal. Players who entered the stands and tried to act as peacemakers were not penalized.

Nine people were treated for injuries, and police are investigating possible criminal charges.

Wallace began the fracas by delivering a hard, two-handed shove to Artest after Wallace was fouled on a drive to the basket with 45.9 seconds remaining. After the fight ended, the referees called off the rest of the game.

The initial skirmish wasn't all that bad, with Artest retreating to the scorer's table and lying atop it after Wallace sent him reeling backward. But when a fan tossed a cup at Artest, he stormed into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

Jackson joined Artest and threw punches at fans, who punched back. At one point, a chair was tossed into the fray.

"Mr. Jackson was well into the stands, and certainly anyone who watched any television this weekend understood he wasn't going in as a peacemaker," Stern said. "Jermaine, I think it's fair to say, exceeded any bounds of peacemaking with the altercation with the fan in which he was involved.

"His penalty actually would have been harsher if he had succeeded in getting into his stands, which he tried to do but was restrained from."

The most recent example of an NBA player going into the stands and punching a fan came in February 1995, when Vernon Maxwell of the Houston Rockets (news) pummeled a spectator in Portland. The league suspended him for 10 games and fined him $20,000.

Among the harshest non-drug-related penalties in NBA history was a one-year suspension of Latrell Sprewell — later reduced to 68 games — for choking Golden State Warriors (news) coach P.J. Carlesimo at practice.

Kermit Washington of the Los Angeles Lakers (news) drew a 60-day (26-game) suspension in 1977 for a punch that broke the jaw of the Houston Rockets' Rudy Tomjanovich during a game, while Dennis Rodman was suspended 11 games for kicking a courtside cameraman in the groin and six games for head-butting a referee.

Artest was benched for two games earlier this month for asking Pacers coach Rick Carlisle for time off because of a busy schedule that included promoting a rap album.

Artest was suspended twice by the NBA last season, once for leaving the bench during a fracas at a Pacers-Celtics playoff game; the other for elbowing Portland's Derek Anderson. During the 2002-03 season, Artest was suspended five times by the NBA and once by the Pacers for a total of 12 games.

Artest also once grabbed a television camera and smashed it to the ground after a loss to the Knicks two years ago.

[ducks]

ofcourse addias11 will think the nba is doing nothing against piston fans

[Useruser666]

When you do something wrong, it is wrong. It doesn't matter who did what first. Wrong is wrong.

[PeterBurns]

For sure, you need to hold people accountable. Freaking S-Jax deserves to be out for longer than Artest.
And for those who know me, I would be double-fisting beers at halftime to make sure I had some for the second half.

But, it's the same issue with the BCS.
There is so much money involved that common sense is thrown out the window.
Stern shouldn't sit all high and mighty, without accepting that the culture that he has designed is part of the problem

[Marcus Bryant]

'Big money' has always been a part of the equation for pro sports. 'Big money' didn't cause that fan to throw that beer and it didn't cause Jack and Artest to bum rush the seats. "Common sense" is that all of those individuals are responsible, not some nethereal 'big money' concept.

The root of the problem is that Artest has been coddled by the teams he has played for. It's hard to say that Stern hasn't been stern with Artest throughout his career. It's been made clear to Artest again and again and again by the league that he needed to control his behavior. He was unable to do so and now he faces the consequences. The Pacers are also paying for their lack of discipline with regards to Artest.

[TNT21]

I think they should stop serving beers after the 3rd Qtr. That seems reasonable enough.

[GoSpurs21]

At Spurs games the concessions and vendors are stopped around the 7 min mark of the 4th quarter. however, alcohol can be purchased all the way up to after the game is over at Headlines bar. Not sure about the other bars in the SBC

[boutons]

"3rd Qtr"? Too late. That 3/4 of 2.5 hours for drinking time.

No beer for sale in the aisles. Beer bought at the concessions stands cannot be carried to the seats. You wanna watch basketball, watch it. You wanna drink, stay out of the audience, or stay home.

[Marcus Bryant]

This is crap. One fan couldn't hold his liquor (literally) and now everyone who's capable of enjoying a cold one without throwing it is to pay? It hasn't been established if the fan was even drunk at the time.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I personally think that its the right way to go. The big problem that has been bouncing around is how to punish the fans who were the problem without punishing innocent fans. The idea of making the pistons play an empty arena game would unfairly punish everyone, including a number of people who probably weren't even at the brawl. And while you certainly can't prove that any of the fans were necessarily drunk when all of this happened its hard to not notice how many of the things whizzing around the stadium look an awful lot like the blue cup that hit Artest.
If nothing else this will provide a good thing to apply leverage on the people who run the buildings and their security. Beer sales are extremely lucrative and they could hold these organizations feet to the fire in order to make them agree to tougher security guidelines.

[Iron Giant]

Before I get a lot of "blah blah" how can you defend...I'm not defending, I'm merely posting an article here that has something else to say. While I'm down with the suspensions, the league is getting off way too lightly for me.

One other observation along the way: civility has largely gone out of our daily discourse with each other (for proof, just look at half the "discussions" in the threads lately). Bombastic BS and insult seem to be integral parts of discussion these days. That being the case, who can act surprised when our kids, sports heroes, and politicians act out in shameful ways?

I'm not at all surprised by what happened in Detroit...what I *am* surprised about is how the league can pretend to be.


Pacers were justified in going after fans
NBA encourages rowdy fans butdoes nothing when it goes too far
COMMENTARY
By Michael Ventre
NBCSports.com contributor
Updated: 1:19 p.m. ET Nov. 22, 2004

O.K., so he’s a knucklehead whose actions are almost impossible to defend.

But I’m going to give it a try anyway.

A Native American proverb states, “Don’t judge a man unless you’ve walked a mile in his shoes.” Doing so in Artest’s case may result in severe damage to one’s psychological well-being, but it’s necessary in order to explain why the Indiana Pacers’ nutbag had some justification for his offenses in the now-historic melee that earned him a suspension for the rest of the season — which, including time served (Saturday’s loss against Orlando) amounts to 73 games, plus playoffs — from an image-obsessed NBA.


If you noticed anything amid the flying beer cups and overweight Pistons fans attempting to fight world-class athletes, you should admit that Artest did not start the ruckus, and in fact, sought to remove himself from it.

Artest fouled Ben Wallace hard in the final minute of the Pacers’ win over the Pistons Friday night (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6534902/), but it was nothing out of the ordinary. Yet Wallace completely overreacted, shoving Artest hard and thereby instigating the drunken dullards in the seats. Wallace admitted he was wrong and even attempted to contact Artest afterward to apologize.

After the benches emptied and players milled around with typical but harmless post-incident posturing, Artest tried to remove himself from conflict and controversy by lying on the scorer’s table. Everything would have been fine if not for the actions of a few beer-guzzling louts who couldn’t leave well enough alone.

One of the aforementioned cretins hurled a cup of beer at Artest, causing him to jump off the table and rush into the seats, fists flailing.

I would have done the exact same thing.

I’m not proud of it. I don’t think violence is the answer. But again, walking a mile in Artest’s shoes? When all I did was foul someone hard, and Wallace blew his cool, instigating a brouhaha? When I’m trying to stay out of trouble, and someone from the stands assaults me? When the league is doing almost nothing to protect players from unruly fans?

You’re damn right I go into the stands, regardless of how much it may eventually cost me.

And if I’m in the shoes of Stephen Jackson, or Jermaine O’Neal, and I see one of my teammates being beaten up? I go up and help.

Now here’s a key point that should not be ignored.

The NBA takes a strident and unflinching stance on the issue of players going into the stands. No ifs, ands or buts. It is absolutely inexcusable, it says.

But David Stern and his minions make it sound as though there is a massive divide between the players on the court and the fans in the seats. In actuality, fans are only a few feet away. And that’s by design.

The league has a major selling point for the fans’ access to the action, as opposed to the arms-length arrangements in baseball, football and hockey. The clubs sell tickets at exorbitant rates just so beer-swilling jerks can sit close to the players and, at the very least, make vile comments. And at the very worst, inject themselves into the fray.

I don’t know if concession stands at the Palace of Auburn Hills shut off beer sales after the third quarter, like some venues. But it seems to me that there was no shortage of giant cups of brew in that game's final minute, judging by how much was thrown at players and team personnel.

The NBA condones the heavy drinking. It requires a skeleton crew of security men (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6540668/) at its events. It invites fans to get as close to the action as possible. And then it breaks out the soapbox when the powderkeg goes off.

Artest and the other players certainly deserve suspensions. But the NBA’s hypocrisy is laughable. Stern and the league are as culpable as anyone.

Stern has an easy target in Artest, who recently caused an uproar when he cluelessly asked for time off from basketball so he could promote his R&B album. Stern views him as the Latrell Sprewell of the 21st century, someone he can demonize as ‘The Player Who Doesn’t Get It’.

But Sprewell was different. He attacked then-Warriors coach P.J. Carlesimo after verbal provocation. And after he did, he had plenty of time to calm down. Yet he attacked a second time.

Artest was physically assaulted. His response was self-defense, even though it may not fit the classic definition.

To me, self-defense is this: If you attack me, I’m going to attack you back.

I bring up the Sprewell example because Artest’s suspension is Sprewell-esque. That ban was originally 82 games, but was later pared down to 68 by an arbitrator. So is the league suggesting that what Artest did is worse than what Sprewell did? Or is this just a case of the NBA covering its behind in the interests of polishing an image and keeping the revenue stream flowing?

The league professes a zero-tolerance policy on players going after fans in the stands. With these penalties — Jackson got 30 games and O’Neal 20 games, among others — it pretends to be doing the right thing.

Wrong.

What the league is doing is protecting the cash cow. It’s siding with the buying public against the players. It’s protecting itself against litigation by making believe that the problem is the players, and the problem is being dealt with. Yet by taking that approach, it is giving tacit approval to boorish actions by its customers in the future.

I’m not saying the NBA is condoning violence by the fans. I’m not suggesting it doesn’t want to see certain fans prosecuted for their actions in that brawl.

But the unusually heavy suspensions will serve as a smokescreen to obscure the league’s own responsibility here. What do you think are the chances that fans will be seated farther away from the action now on, which would discourage any such future incidents? How likely do you think it is that the league will insist beer sales be severely limited at its arenas, or discontinued altogether? What is the likelihood that security forces will be doubled from now on at all NBA games?

I have the answer for you: The status quo will remain in effect, because it’s easier to blame a small handful of wealthy, high-profile NBA players who can afford the fines and suspensions than it is to tackle the root causes of the problem.

This whole situation is embarrassing and appalling. The brawl was ugly, too.

[boutons]

This is pretty much the Charles Barkley position he gave on CNN this morning. He said basicallly a player has the right to retaliate against the fan's touching or throwing at the player.

[PeterBurns]

'Big money' has always been a part of the equation for pro sports. 'Big money' didn't cause that fan to throw that beer and it didn't cause Jack and Artest to bum rush the seats. "Common sense" is that all of those individuals are responsible, not some nethereal 'big money' concept..

Never said it did.
What I did say, is that it is a perfect time for Stern to make some changes in the way that he handles his league.

Common Sense rarely shows itself with Millionaire athletes in today sports environment, that is what makes the Spurs that much more of a special team to follow.

There is no "wow" marketing plan for team that do things the right way, but there is the fact that we are able to keep our heads up and say we support a franchise that does.

[pooh]

You’re damn right I go into the stands, regardless of how much it may eventually cost me.

Absoluletly

[Spurminator]

You’re damn right I go into the stands, regardless of how much it may eventually cost me.

Fine. Then don't complain when it costs.

[SequSpur]

I guess this topic couldn't have fit into another one.

[samikeyp]

To me, self-defense is this: If you attack me, I’m going to attack you back.

Therein lies the dispute. Is getting beer thrown on you an attack? And is it worth punching someone for. Civilized people say no.

[pooh]

What's really bad is how Detroit came out with basically a slap on the wrist, and that's not right at all. I can't wait until late Jan early Feb when Jax and JO come back....just remember, "revenge is a dish that is best served cold."

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

What's really bad is how Detroit came out with basically a slap on the wrist, and that's not right at all. I can't wait until late Jan early Feb when Jax and JO come back....just remember, "revenge is a dish that is best served cold."

Again, when did the Pistons start attacking fans?

When did the Pistons lay some guy out that was on his knees?

When did the Pistons bring a broom out of the hallway?

How many Pistons had their jerseys re-arranged because they were pulled off of people?

[samikeyp]

Detroit players didn't punch anyone. I imagine there will still be fines for the organization. Stern isn't done yet with this.

[pooh]

Again, when did the Pistons start attacking fans?

When did the Pistons lay some guy out that was on his knees?

When did the Pistons bring a broom out of the hallway?

How many Pistons had their jerseys re-arranged because they were pulled off of people?

See the Srping 2005 meeting between the two teams with Jax and JO in Conseco and you'll see it.

[SequSpur]

Don't be a hater Pooh.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

See the Srping 2005 meeting between the two teams with Jax and JO in Conseco and you'll see it.

I wonder if this would qualify as pre-planning a crime.

*Calls Homeland Security*

[GoSpurs21]

you can ban alcohol at the arena all you want...i will smuggle it in anyways and enjoy it responsibly

[jcrod]

I find it funny no one responds when one of the most respectable players in the game defends Artest and no one has anything to say about it. It's BASH BASH the "THUGS".

I just re-saw the tape and although he was wrong, I don't have a problem with what Artest or Jackson did. I do have a problem with what O'neil did.

Artest, no matter what people say, how wrong he is, this doesn't happen if:

1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.
2) If that stupid fan doesn't throw a drink full of liquid at him.

No matter how you put it, doesn't happen!!!!!! Cause and Effect!!!!!! It was just the straw that broke the camels back. If you get touched, as a person, no matter who you are, you have a right to touch back. Don't matter what your job is. Nobody has a right to throw something at you or hit you.

Granted he went after the wrong guy, but looking at the replays, he doesn't really do anything to him. He grabs him by the face and knocks him down, that's it. He doesn't beat the crap out of him, like people are saying. He gets pulled away and then the "REAL" idiot starts punching him. Artest does start to punch him back. He has every right too, same for the guy who came charging at him on the floor.

SJ

As much as people want to say he came in swinging I just don't see it. If you really look at the replays. He comes in a couple of rows on top of Artest, he's looking directly at Artest as to pull him out. Then the fan with the black shirt to the right throws another drink at Artest, thats when SJ pops him "one", not two or three. Then when the idiot in the cap starts to hit Artest, he starts to lay it on him. He doesn't just start swinging away as people put it. Show me one guy he hits for no reason.

Oneil

Oneil hitting that guy who was getting up was just awful, funniest, but awful. There was absoultely no reason to hit that poor shubby fellow.

Everybody has their own opinion. Fact is, as A PERSON, no one has a right to disrepect you in anyway shape or form. Doesn't matter if it was just a cup of water or a chair. You have NO RIGHT.

[whottt]

just remember, "revenge is a dish that is best served cold."

Yeah? And the playoffs are a part of the season best made. A winning is a regular season best had....Not to mention that homecourt is an advantage best gained...

You're fucked. Piston fan got over on your headcase and together they took your whole franchise down for the count in the 04-05 season.

[boutons]

NYT: One Player Barred for Season as N.B.A. Responds to Brawl

November 22, 2004
By LIZ ROBBINS, NY Times

The National Basketball Association imposed its stiffest
collective penalties ever yesterday, suspending the Indiana
Pacers' Ron Artest for the remaining 72 games of the season
and suspending his teammates Stephen Jackson and Jermaine
O'Neal for a combined 55 games for fighting with fans
Friday night.

In a sequence replayed repeatedly on television in the past
48 hours, Pacers players charged into the stands at the
Palace of Auburn Hills in Michigan in perhaps the worst
brawl in pro basketball history.

Jackson was barred for 30 games, O'Neal for 25. Detroit
Pistons center Ben Wallace, who shoved Artest and
instigated an on-court tussle between the teams after a
hard foul by Artest, received a six-game suspension. Five
other players received lesser suspensions. All the
suspensions are without pay, and the players union said it
would appeal them.

The police are investigating possible criminal charges.


In a 40-minute news conference before last night's
Knicks-Cavaliers game at Madison Square Garden, N.B.A.
Commissioner David Stern condemned the players' actions and
emphasized the need for greater fan control and arena
security. He said the league would redefine acceptable fan
behavior and would discuss curtailing beer sales. Stern
said fans who did not meet the new standard would be barred
permanently, although he did not elaborate on how that
could be accomplished. The league is also planning to
re-examine security at all 29 arenas.

"We have to make the point that there are boundaries in our
games," he said, "and that one of those boundaries, which
has always been immutable, is the boundary that separates
the fans from the court. And players cannot lose control
and go into the stands. As a corollary, we have to hold
fans responsible for their antisocial behavior as well."

Artest said in a statement released by the union: "I
respect David Stern, but I don't think that he has been
fair with me in this situation. It's very important to me
that people understand that I didn't mean for the situation
to turn out like it did. It really hurt me to see the
children crying on TV, and I think about how it could have
been my own kids. I also regret and apologize to fans who
were upset by what happened."

(note: sniff sniff.
note: he did NOT say he was sorry for doing it, but sorry the fans got upset at what he did.)

The league, which enjoyed growing popularity in the 1990's
with the success of Michael Jordan, has had to deal with
several hits to its image.

One of the league's stars, the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, played
under the cloud of a rape accusation last season; the case
was dismissed over the summer. Recently, Latrell Sprewell,
scheduled to be paid $14.6 million this season, said he
wanted to be traded because of trouble in reaching a deal
on a contract extension, saying he needed to feed his
family. Sprewell was the last player suspended for the
remainder of a season, when he choked his coach on the
Golden State Warriors, P. J. Carlesimo, in 1997.

Stern said he was confident the suspensions would hold; the
appeals will be made directly to him. Billy Hunter, the
executive director of the players union, called the
suspension of Artest unfair and said the length of the
other suspensions was "a bit egregious."

(note: Billy Hunter knows who signs his checks, the whore)

He also criticized those who run the Palace. "Where was the
security?" Hunter said. "They sell a lot of alcohol, and it
seemed that the people who were involved were people who
had a little too much to drink."

Over the past two days, coaches and players throughout the
league blamed security and unruly fans, but acknowledged
that the league's image had been damaged.

"It just leaves a bad taste in our mouth; it gives our
opponents of our league a chance to say, 'Look how out of
control the league is,' " Celtics Coach Doc Rivers said in
an interview Saturday. "We have some guys who are out of
control, but not the whole league."

Rivers had a meeting Saturday with his players. "I told
them a lot of things may happen, but the one thing that can
never happen is going into the stands," he said.

The N.B.A.'s swift suspensions made an impression on
players and coaches. "It shows me this kind of thing is not
going to be tolerated under any circumstances," Cleveland
Cavaliers Coach Paul Silas said.

The Cavaliers star LeBron James said he could not believe
Artest was suspended for the rest of the season.

"It was shocking that it had to go that way because I
really don't think he initiated it," James said. "It was
shocking and it's kind of sad that some of our good players
are suspended. To keep our image up, we kind of need those
guys."

(note: LBJ needs to stick to basketball, and stop trying to think.)

The Pacers, with the best record in the Eastern Conference,
lost their top three scorers. Their backup point guard,
Anthony Johnson, out with a broken hand, was suspended for
five games. Indiana guard Reggie Miller was suspended for
one game for leaving the bench. So were Detroit's Elden
Campbell, Derrick Coleman and Chauncey Billups.

Indiana, considered a favorite to reach the Eastern
Conference finals again, may have opened the door to its
opponents.

"Clearly, without those three guys, you got to go in there
thinking you have an edge," Silas said.

Stern said he took responsibility for the lack of control
at Friday's game.

Artest, the reigning defensive player of the year, has had
a history of misbehavior. Before Friday night, he was
suspended for a total of 15 games by the league and by his
teams. In January 2003, he destroyed a Madison Square
Garden camera and slammed a monitor to the ground. He
amassed nine flagrant foul points during that season.

Two weeks ago, the Pacers benched him for two games when he
requested time off from what he said was a busy schedule,
including the promotion of a rap album on his label.

Stern said, "I did not strike from my mind the fact that
Ron Artest has been suspended on previous occasions for a
loss of self-control."

(note: but he keeps playing well, That's Entertainment)

Stern made the decision after the league conducted two days
of interviews with the players involved - excluding Artest,
Jackson and O'Neal. Stern said they were exempt because of
the possibility they would be involved in legal action.

"There may well be lawsuits with players against fans and
fans against players," Stern said.

The Oakland County prosecutor, David C. Gorcyca, said:
"There's going to be some criminal charges from what I've
seen. It's just a matter of identifying fans and trying to
determine whether certain people were acting in
self-defense."

Gorcyca said he expected to receive a brief from the Auburn
Hills police department this morning outlining the case,
and he said he would consider possible charges.

If the suspensions stand, Artest will lose $5 million in
salary, and O'Neal $4.1 million.

Stern said O'Neal's suspension would have been longer had
O'Neal succeeded in getting past the people restraining him
and jumped into the stands.

"No one can condone what happened in Auburn Hills," Arn
Tellem, O'Neal's agent, said in a statement. "But no one
can justify the N.B.A.'s rush to judgment regarding
Jermaine O'Neal.

(note: Arn you dickhead, there was no rush to judegement)

"Without any consideration of the danger created by fans
running wildly and aggressively on the court, without any
consideration of the players' fear for their own safety
while they were under attack, without review of the
security failures of both the N.B.A. and the Palace, and
without any consideration of past player disciplinary
rulings, the N.B.A. has singled out Jermaine O'Neal in an
arbitrary and capricious way."

(note: Arn you dickhead, Jermaine was at the top of the heap of several suspended jersk, was NOT singled out)

================================================== =====

yep, the agents and lawyers are gonna lie and buy and weasal their clients' asses out of this mess.

[samikeyp]

Artest, no matter what people say, how wrong he is, this doesn't happen if:

1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.
2) If that stupid fan doesn't throw a drink full of liquid at him.

No matter how you put it, doesn't happen!!!!!!

How about this way. Artest chooses not to do it. You can't necessarily control your emotions but you can control your behavior. Artest made a concious desicion to go into the stands...he didn't have to...he chose to. Along that same line of logic...this doesn't happen if Artest is taken out of the game before it happens...so then does the blame lie with Rick Carlisle? Along that same line of logic this doesn't happen if Artest never gets traded from Chicago...so then does blame lie with Jerry Krause who traded Artest? Along that same line of logic...this doesn't happen if Mr. and Mrs. Artest decide not to do the horizontal mambo! so then does blame lie with them? Artest chose, CHOSE, that course of action of going into the stands. He now has to live with the consequences of his actions.

[jcrod]

No that's the in the same line. The fan CHOSE to throw the beverage. Once that happens. As a human being, you have a right to throw something back. Doesn't matter your proffesion.

[Kori Ellis]

Once that happens. As a human being, you have a right to throw something back.

You have a right to throw something back? What gives you the right? Legally you don't. He wasn't in danger at that point. So it's not self defense.

[jcrod]

I'm not saying its self defense. It has nothing to do with Self Defense. No one has a right to throw any type of object at another person.

[Shelly]

1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.

Not excusing anyone for what happened. But the fromeister started it all, IMO.

[jcrod]

Therein lies the dispute. Is getting beer thrown on you an attack? And is it worth punching someone for. Civilized people say no.


I'm not saying self defense, But yes having any type of object thrown at you is being attacked.

Who says a person is civilized or not????????
I would say I'm very civilized and if you threw something at me, I would hope I would walk away. But if my adreline is pumping I would go straight to you amd swing, or at least shove the shit out of you.

[samikeyp]

you have a right to throw something back.

says who? one stupid act means you HAVE to follow it with another? You can't necessarily control your emotions but you can control your actions. If you lack the ability to control your actions, you need professional help.

you said that...then you said this...
I'm not saying its self defense. It has nothing to do with Self Defense. No one has a right to throw any type of object at another person. you can't have it both ways.

[boutons]

Charges to Be Filed In Pistons-Pacers Brawl

By Greg Sandoval, Washington Post

Authorities in Auburn Hills, Mich., confirmed yesterday that they intend to file charges against members of the Indiana Pacers -- as well as a number of fans -- involved in Friday night's brawl during a game between the Pacers and Detroit Pistons.

"Charges are forthcoming," Oakland County prosecutor David Gorcyca said in a phone interview. "Players and fans will be charged. . . . Eventually all those responsible will be held accountable."

Gorcyca is waiting until all the evidence is gathered before charging individuals, a process that will take at least two weeks, said Lt. James Manning of the Auburn Hills Police Department. The investigation has been slowed by the sheer volume of altercations captured on video.

Police have also begun investigating new reports that Indiana reserve center David Harrison struck a man during the melee but apparently out of camera range. "The information that we've received is that Harrison hit a 60-year-old man without any provocation," Gorcyca said.

Harrison, via a Pacers spokesman, declined to comment.

A day after the NBA suspended four Pacers -- including forward Ron Artest for the remainder of the season (73 games), swingman Stephen Jackson for 30 games and center-forward Jermaine O'Neal for 25 games -- the Indiana franchise rallied around the embattled players.

A spokesman for the NBA Players Association said it will appeal the Pacers' suspensions by tomorrow. The players' union will also ask that the appeals be heard by an independent arbitrator. League rules state that Commissioner David Stern has the final say on all appeals. Stern handed out the initial punishment Sunday.

"We're backing Ronnie 100 percent," said Larry Bird, Indiana's president of basketball operations during an afternoon news conference. "We support all our players. At times like this we need the support of our fans and I think we'll have it."

Friday night's game ended in one of the ugliest incidents in professional sports history when a brawl broke out in the final minute of Indiana's 97-82 victory, forcing the game to be called before the final buzzer. Arena officials have said nine people suffered injuries.

The brawl started after Detroit's Ben Wallace shoved Artest following a hard foul. As Artest lay on the scorer's table, he was struck by a beverage thrown from the stands and went into the crowd and exchanged punches with several men.

Jackson also charged into the stands and fought with fans. Later, the fighting spilled onto the court, where video captured O'Neal slugging a man. Throughout, players were pelted with objects thrown by numerous fans, such as ice, cups of liquid and popcorn.

Artest apologized Sunday. O'Neal, an all-star, issued his own statement yesterday.

"I was distressed and shocked to see the situation spiral out of control," O'Neal said. "I regret what happened, and I promise to work as hard as I can to help restore respect for NBA basketball."

Wallace was suspended for six games but said he will not appeal.

Nine fans have filed complaints alleging they were attacked during the fracas, according to Gorcyca's office.

Because no one was seriously injured, most of the people involved in the altercation face misdemeanor assault-and-battery charges, which under Michigan law are punishable by up to 93 days in jail.

"Had it not been for the notoriety of the athletes, these charges would not be considered a big deal," said Gorcyca. "Typically, this case would not have even reached my desk."

Only one of the people involved in the melee could be charged with a felony: the man who threw a folding chair that struck a policeman, Gorcyca said.

Police have also interviewed the man who they say threw the drink that struck Artest. Manning would not discuss whether the man will face charges but he did say that throwing anything at the Palace of Auburn Hills, the Pistons' home court, is a violation of a local ordinance and could mean a 90-day jail term.

Police are seeking to interview players, coaches and members of the media at the game.

"We're going to coordinate our information before we present our final case," said Manning. "We also still have to determine who was defending themselves and who were the aggressors."

[boutons]

Come on, Larry, for you of all people, how are the IND players "supportable" by IND org or fans? morally? financially?

We'll see how tough Stern (ie, owners group who selected him) will be.

I personally refuse the lawyer-written apologies of the IND players.

[boutons]

The Courage to Tackle the Brawlers

By John Feinstein, (appears Washington Post)

The best thing that happened to college football this past weekend was Ron Artest. If not for the out-of-control behavior of the now-suspended Indiana Pacers forward, the fight that broke out during the fourth quarter of the South Carolina-Clemson football game on Saturday would have been the story that all those who follow sports would be wringing their hands over right now.

Instead, the extraordinarily disturbing scene that unfolded in Detroit Friday night is dominating the airwaves and print. The videotape of what started as an on-court shoving match between Artest and the Pistons' Ben Wallace has already been replayed thousands of times, and NBA Commissioner David Stern guaranteed that the story would continue to be everyone's lead when he handed down unprecedented suspensions for Artest (gone for the Pacers' remaining 73 games this season) and teammates Stephen Jackson (30 games) and Jermaine O'Neal (25 games) on Sunday.

Good for Stern. He quickly recognized that, regardless of provocation -- and there was, without question, provocation -- players cannot go into the stands. Period. The players will appeal and correctly point out the awful behavior of the fans, part of a disturbing trend, but that doesn't matter. Stern did something too rare in sports today: He acted, swiftly and decisively.

One would not have expected the same of Andrew A. Sorensen and James F. Barker, the presidents of South Carolina and Clemson, respectively. The fight that broke out in the fourth quarter of Clemson's 29-7 victory Saturday was, in its own way, every bit as ugly as the Pistons-Pacers riot. The football fight involved dozens of players, most of whom left the sidelines and many of whom ignored state police who came on the field to try to break up the melee. Lou Holtz, South Carolina's 67-year-old coach, who had told his players earlier in the week that he was retiring, was right in the middle, helplessly trying to stop the madness.

To his credit, Holtz was abjectly apologetic and apoplectic when order was finally restored, saying he had never seen anything as appalling in more than 40 years as a football coach. Holtz's comments sharply contrasted with those of Tommy Bowden, his counterpart at Clemson, who called the fights "unjustifiable" but then went on to explain that football is a violent game and that these things sometimes happen.

Apparently, Barker and Sorensen disagree. Yesterday, their schools announced that they would reject any postseason bowl bid they were offered. Good for them. It is about time for some of America's educators to stand up and behave like educators. This is an example of trying to teach athletes and fans the difference between right and wrong.

These incidents are part of a trend in sports. There is so much hype connected to everything in sports today because of nonstop sports talk radio and the proliferation of all-sports networks: Pro football, pro basketball, tennis and golf all have 24-hour networks, in addition to the ubiquitous ESPN. The TV networks show highlights of violent behavior over and over, and they constantly offer up angry programming in which people shout at one another as if the question of which rivalry is better than another or which quarterback should start on Sunday is as important as what to do about Iraq. On radio, fans are encouraged to call in and voice hatred for opponents and to complain when their team fails them, as if these failures are somehow destroying their lives.

On-air "personalities" become stars by calling athletes and coaches names. Former Redskins head coach Steve Spurrier has been derided and called -- among other things -- "a pathetic human being" by talk-show hosts in Washington. This past weekend, at the end of what ESPN blaringly calls "Rivalry Week," there was a fight in the stands at the Harvard-Yale game. Harvard-Yale!

The notion of respecting your opponent is long gone in far too many places. At most professional sporting events and big-time college events, the public address announcer is under orders to barely acknowledge the presence of the visiting team. Names are practically whispered during introductions, and good plays are nearly ignored. But the home team makes an entrance surrounded by smoke, fireworks, cheerleaders, blaring music and a screaming announcer. First downs or three-point shots are treated as if man has landed on the moon for the first time. All of which sets up an atmosphere that encourages hostility. Coaches tell their teams constantly: "Everyone in this building hates you. Let's go out there and shut them up."

Perhaps it began in 1993, when a lunatic came out of the stands during a tennis tournament in Germany and stabbed Monica Seles, then the No. 1-ranked female player. The fact that he was given a suspended sentence by a German judge set a terrible precedent. Two years ago a Kansas City Royals coach was attacked on the field by two fans in Chicago. Even golf has been afflicted: At the 1999 Ryder Cup, U.S. fans constantly screamed profanities at European players on the final day.

The NBA's Stern took decisive, immediate action: no hand-wringing, no delays, no excuses. Buried in the news about the basketball suspensions yesterday morning were statements from the commissioners of the leagues that Clemson and South Carolina play in. Both were upset. Both said they would investigate further. Neither said a word about recommending to the college presidents that they turn down the postseason bowl bids that were likely to be extended to the two football teams.

But, to their everlasting credit, Barker and Sorensen acted as swiftly as Stern. So in a sense, a weekend that began as a low point for all of sports may have ended up as a much-needed new beginning. What the two presidents did yesterday was a show of guts and integrity not seen in big-time college athletics in a good long while.

The writer is the author of "The Punch," a book about a famous pro basketball fight, and, with co-author Red Auerbach, "Let Me Tell You a Story."

[boutons]

Artest Speaks Out

INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest said Tuesday he wishes he hadn't gotten into a fight with fans but feels his season-ending suspension was too harsh.

"I don't think it was fair -- that many games," Artest said in an interview with NBC's "Today" show. "I respect (NBA Commissioner) David Stern's decisions, but I don't think I should have been out for the whole season."

It was Artest's first national interview since he was suspended for charging into the stands and fighting with fans late in Friday night's game against the Detroit Pistons in Auburn Hills, a Detroit suburb. The suspension amounts to 72 games in an 82-game season, and means he will lose about $5 million.

Four other Pacers players were suspended for shorter periods, including Stephen Jackson (30 games) and Jermaine O'Neal (25 games).

Artest bolted into the stands after being hit by a cup thrown by a spectator, touching off a brawl in which players exchanged punches with fans, who also doused the Pacers with drinks, popcorn, a chair and other debris.

"I wish that situation never happened," Artest said. "It wasn't good at all, for anybody."

"This is the third time that I've been hit with something out of the crowd," said Artest, who claimed he had been struck previously in Detroit and in Cleveland.

No charges had been filed in the brawl, but if any are they most likely would be misdemeanor assault and battery, Oakland County, Mich., prosecutor David Gorcyca said Monday.

The only possible felony charge currently under consideration would be against the unidentified person who hurled a chair into the crowd, Gorcyca said. Authorities asked the public to help identify that person.

After repeatedly watching footage of the brawl, the prosecutor personally identified John Green -- a former neighbor of Gorcyca -- as the fan who threw a cup that hit Artest.

Once Artest was in the stands, Green grabbed him from behind and sucker-punched him, the prosecutor said.

Green, 39, a contractor, told reporters Monday that it may have looked like he threw the cup, but he didn't.

"I wish the whole thing didn't happen," he said. "It was awful, it was ugly."

Green's attorney, Shawn Smith, said his client only became involved in the brawl when he saw Artest hitting a smaller man.

"We have no comment on who threw the cup, it's irrelevant," Smith said. He said fans shouldn't throw things, "but is it a criminal offense? I don't think so."

During an appearance Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America," Green described himself as a respected businessman with a wife and two children. He said he was not drinking Friday night.

"I don't go around breaking the law," he said "If they have found that I broke the law, I'll pay the price."

But Gorcyca said Green was on probation for his third offense of driving under the influence. Green's record also includes convictions for carrying a concealed weapon and check fraud, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections' database.

Pistons chief executive Tom Wilson said Green is a season-ticket holder and will be banned from The Palace.

Auburn Hills Police Chief Doreen Olko said her office had spoken to nine people who said they were injured in the fight, but that the injuries were relatively minor.

Artest had not yet been interviewed by Michigan authorities, the chief said.

During the "Today" interview, simulcast with Indianapolis radio station WNOU, Artest plugged his new CD and wore a T-shirt and hat emblazoned with the logo of his record label -- TruWarier Records.

Artest said he had no ill will toward Detroit's Ben Wallace, who got things started when he shoved Artest after a foul late in the game.

"Wallace just had a death in the family, so I'm understanding," he said Monday night on WHHH radio in Indianapolis.

AP-ES-11-23-04 1044EST

[violentkitten]

its over stop posting dumbass

[ALVAREZ6]

pooh, you don't deserve to talk, the Pacers are all faggot P*sss@Ys

[violentkitten]

you couldn't lick a pussy if you tried