Which team is better 2005 or 2007 suns?

[Phil Hellmuth]

2005 phx suns:

nash
joejohnson
Qrich
Marion
Stoudemaire

bench: barbosa (early years), crappy jimjackson,



2007 suns:

nash
bell
marion
stoudamire
Diaw

bench: 6th man of year barbosa, jones, Thomas



Both teams averaged about the same ppg and opg's.

[PhxDog]

Don't forget that Joe Johnson was hurt during most of the '05 conference semis and finals.

By the time the Spurs played them, their 6th man was Steven Hunter.

[baseline bum]

Don't forget that Joe Johnson was hurt during most of the '05 conference semis and finals.

By the time the Spurs played them, their 6th man was Steven Hunter.

.. and Duncan was playing on two badly sprained ankles.

To get back to the original question, 2007 Suns easily.

[Duncanoypi]

yeah...2007 suns...

just like the question what team is better....2005 Denver or 2007 Denver

[Obstructed_View]

yeah...2007 suns...

just like the question what team is better....2005 Denver or 2007 Denver
2005 Denver.

[mabber]

2007 Suns

[Duncanoypi]

2007 mavs

[Jimcs50]

07 Suns by a mile

[degenerate_gambler]

this years version

[Extra Stout]

Nash '07 = Nash '05
Johnson > Bell
Diaw >>> QRich (useless)
Marion = Marion
Stoudemire '07 < Stoudemire '05 (barely)

Barbosa '07 >> Barbosa '05
Thomas > Hunter
Jones > Jackson

'07 Suns are better.

[Obstructed_View]

Diaw >>> QRich (useless)
No big disagreement with the rest of it, but have you watched Diaw this year? Just because Richardson was shut down against the Spurs (at least from the perimeter) shouldn't lessen his contribution in '05.

[timvp]

For the Spurs fans who remember the 2005 Suns, you should just forget about that Phoenix squad. This team is much, much better. Stoudemire is a smarter basketball player. Nash is playing better than ever, especially defensively. Marion might be the most dynamic player in the league. Bell is a hard ass who will do whatever it takes to win. Barbosa is playing at a very high level. Diaw is talented. Kurt Thomas can guard Duncan with success. James Jones is like a sane Stephen Jackson.

I agree with this.

[DarrinS]

I doesn't matter.


Let's see....eany meany miney moe...


Ok, I pick 2007.


Next.

[Spurminator]

I'd say Diaw is much more useless than Richardson was, if only because Richardson could at least spread the defense. Diaw 2007 reminds me of Philly Chris Webber 2007.

[Texas_Ranger]

07.

[mVp]

07 suns are waaaaaay better

[Borosai]

'03, '05, '07...doesn't matter...the Spurs win. Next.

[Suck My Blurr]

07

[Dave McNulla]

i'll go minority and pick 2005. the key is stoudamire. he's weighted much more heavily than most of his teammates. he's lost lateral movement. everything else is just as good, but that lateral movement makes him so much more vulnerable on offense and defense.

as for some of the other suns players that have changed teams, they looked like great players until they faced the spurs. you sort of have to wait until the 2007 plays the spurs in this series.

oh yeah, you forgot joe johnson too, he didn't get to play much in 2005, but he's way better than raja bell.

[samikeyp]

2007

[Suns>Spurs]

2007

[timvp]

1993.

[samikeyp]

1976

Gar Heard! :)

[DarrinS]

1993.


Sir Charles
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Danny Ainge

:tu

[td4mvp21]

'07 Suns no doubt. This is going to be a very very hard series. I hope we can win it.

[nkdlunch]

same run-n-gun booollsheeet

[Kevin Blackistone]

The main question is, do the 2007 Suns play any defense? Who are the leaders of that team? Nash and Amare. Neither play any defense. Do you really think a team whose leaders are defensive liabilities are going to be able to grind it out against the Spurs?

[texbound]

I think the 07 Suns are better than 05 because of experience (especially Barbosa) and a little more toughness on the inside (Thomas can guard Duncan better than Hunter did).

Which Spurs team (2005 or 2007) is better?

2005
Bruce Bowen
Tim Duncan
Nazr Mohammed
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili

Bench
Robert Horry
Brent Barry
Beno Udrih
Rasho Nesterovic
Tony Massenburg
Glenn Robinson
Devin Brown

2007
Tony Parker
Michael Finley
Bruce Bowen
Tim Duncan
Francisco Elson

Bench
Manu Ginobili
Robert Horry
Fabricio Oberto
Jacque Vaughn
Brent Barry
Matt Bonner
Beno Udrih
James White
Melvin Ely
Jackie Butler


I think this years team is better than the 05 team. The Spurs have more guys that can stretch the defense (Finley, Barry, Horry, Bonner?), have a C that can run the floor (Elson), a BPG (Vaughn) that can guard Nash in stretches (unlike Beno), and a healthy Tim Duncan.

[sunsbum]

kevin, with all of your responses youve posted today they have really lead me to believe youve watched a grand total of 4 suns games this year. while the suns arent the defensive force the pistons/spurs are, we have a much better defense with a healthy KT and amare...not to mention the manu stopper. we will have our moments of WTF defense but i think we are in a WAY better position than 2005, and now with a deeper bench guys arent going to be asked to play 43 minutes of play both ways.

[Trainwreck2100]

Brent Barry owns this team, and if Brent freakin Barry owns you, you know your fucked.

[Despot]

Hi, I was going to post this in a thread, but this seems like a good place to put it, did this just out of curiosity for myself since everyone is comparing this series to the '05 series. And in some cases thinking it will be just as easy, or easier. Anyways I decided to clean it up and post it here.

Yes, I know stats are not everything.
One thing to remember, I'm not sure of the official difference, but it seems to me that 100 points was much harder to came by in '05.

http://www.amistadbassin.com/img/stats.gif

[Spurs rock]

2003

[Lakerhater1]

Definitely 2007

[itzsoweezee]

amare in 2005 >>>> amare in 2007

diaw is playing kind of shitty this year. not afraid of him at all.

[itzsoweezee]

and now with a deeper bench guys arent going to be asked to play 43 minutes of play both ways.

yeah right. watch game 1, dantoni will play a seven man rotation. thomas will be lucky to get 10 minutes.

[ATXSPUR]

'03, '05, '07...doesn't matter...the Spurs win. Next.

thank you.

by the way that 03 team gave us more problems than 05 and after this series 07 as well.

[tlongII]

I agree with timvp

[exstatic]

'05.
Amare good knee > Amare repaired knee
Nash - 2 yrs > Nash now.

And for you bashers, a healthy QRich made 226 three pointers, and he shot .358 doing it. They also have no one anywhere near the quality of Joe Johnson. He made 177 three pointers and shot .478 doing it. That is NOT a typo.

If the Sun has set on Phoenix's chances, they may well look back at the summer of 2005 and keeping Matrix, a system player, while trading JJ as their downfall.

[cornbread]

I think the sum of the parts is greater with this 07 team. Better D, smarter Amare, and 6th man of the year Barbosa are nice improvements. It will be an incredible series.

[exstatic]

I think the sum of the parts is greater with this 07 team. Better D, smarter Amare, and 6th man of the year Barbosa are nice improvements. It will be an incredible series.

Did you even scan the stat sheet posted above? Yeah, they allow a whole .4 less points, but allow a higher FG% (.457/.445) and a higher 3G% (.363/.335) than the 05 squad. They are not a better defensive squad.

BTW, Amare did pushups last game...again. :sleep

[mardigan]

I think people forget how good Joe Johnson and Q were for the Suns. Both were good defenders and really stretched defenses. Also, I know he was old, but Jimy Jackson averaged over 10 points a game in the playoffs that year, he was also solid

[Trainwreck2100]

BTW, Amare did pushups last game...again. :sleep


This is funny cause last time some little bitch Suns fan brought up the fact that it was two years ago, and we should get over it. Now he can't bitch

[Nikos]

Nash '07 (slight) > Nash '05
Johnson = Bell (but guards Manu much better), against other teams JJ was better
Diaw = QRich (Diaw is having an off year)
Marion = Marion
Stoudemire '07 (but still good enough to drop 27+) < Stoudemire '05

Barbosa '07 >> Barbosa '05

The Suns are slightly better on defense, and slightly worse on offense (but they have more offensive options considering Barbosa is > anyone outside their big three on O, actually better than Marion probably.

Basically they are the same calibur team unless Amare plays like he did 2005. If Amare returns to that form they are better. And no Amare hasn't played nearly as well as 2005 in terms of scoring the basketball. But he still might be capable of eating up the Spurs.

Either way this series is a coin toss. Both teams are capable of beating each other. Suns have the slight edge due to the homecourt.

[cornbread]

Did you even scan the stat sheet posted above? Yeah, they allow a whole .4 less points, but allow a higher FG% (.457/.445) and a higher 3G% (.363/.335) than the 05 squad. They are not a better defensive squad.

BTW, Amare did pushups last game...again. :sleep
I didn't have time to peruse the stat sheet but holy cow, you're right! They allowed a whole 00.8% higher FG%than 2005! 2005 was better. Case closed.

[conqueso]

For the Spurs fans who remember the 2005 Suns, you should just forget about that Phoenix squad. This team is much, much better. Stoudemire is a smarter basketball player. Nash is playing better than ever, especially defensively. Marion might be the most dynamic player in the league. Bell is a hard ass who will do whatever it takes to win. Barbosa is playing at a very high level. Diaw is talented. Kurt Thomas can guard Duncan with success. James Jones is like a sane Stephen Jackson.

I think the Spurs this year will have a harder time against the Suns this year than they did in '05, but I think that '05 was better.

'05:
Amare - 25 ppg, 9 rpg, 1.6 bpg
Marion - 19 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 spg, 1.4 3pg, 1.5 bpg
JJ - 17 ppg, 5 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.2 3pg
Nash - 15.5 ppg, 11.5 apg, 1.4 3pg
QRich - 15 ppg, 6 rpg, 2.8 3pg
Jackson - 9 ppg, 4 rpg

110.4 PF, 103.3 PA, 44 rpg, 23.5 apg, 7 spg, 9.7 3pg, 5.5 bpg

'07:
Amare - 20.4 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 1.3 bpg
Marion - 17.5 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 spg, 1.0 3pg, 1.5 bpg,
Diaw - 10 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg
Nash - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, 2 3pg
Bell - 14.7 ppg, 3 rpg, 2.6 3pg
Barbosa - 18 ppg, 4 apg

110.2 PF, 102.9 PA, 40.5 rpg, 25.9 apg, 6.7 spg, 9.6 3pg, 5.8 bpg

- "Stoudamire is a much smarter player"
He's also a little less explosive, plays 3.5 fewer minutes per game, can't score in as many ridiculous ways, and still isn't a great defender. In the last two years, his hasn't developed his mid-range game very much, and he certainly hasn't improved his defense.

- "Nash is playing better than ever..."
True.

- "...especially defensively."
False. Did you see what Tony did to him on April 5th? Did you see what everyone did to him all year long? He actually averaged 0.25 more steals in '05 than he did in '07.

- "Marion might be the most dynamic player in the league."
I agree, but his stats at least aren't as good as they were two years ago.

- "Bell is a hardass who will do whatever it takes to win."
True, and he improves the Suns' one-on-one defense tremendously, but he's a small step down in three pointers per game and offense from QRich. He does shoot a much better percentage from three though, but still not great compared to JJ's NASTY 48% in '05.

- "Barbosa is playing at a very high level."
True, but again, he's no Joe Johnson. JJ could lead the break, run the offense when Nash was out, score, rebound, pass, AND shoot the three.

- "Diaw is talented."
I think he's overrated, most likely because of the novelty of a point forward. He can be effective in certain situations, but he's woefully inconsistent, which is why he only scores 9.7 ppg in over 31 mpg.

To recap:

- Amare is not as effective of a player now as he was then. That's pretty self-evident.
- Nash is a better player in almost every respect now.
- Marion's numbers are not as good, but he's still just as good.
- JJ and QRich are better than Barbosa and Diaw in every single category except defense.
- The '05 team was significantly better at rebounding and about the same in every other category.

In conclusion:

The Suns play better defense, but they have lost a lot down low and in terms of explosive scoring options. I think the '05 team was slightly better than the '07 team.

[nkdlunch]

Which team is better 2005 or 2007 suns?

2007 Spurs

[conqueso]

One thing to remember, I'm not sure of the official difference, but it seems to me that 100 points was much harder to came by in '05.

In '04-'05, 6 teams averaged 100+ points (Boston, Miami, Washington, Phoenix, Sacramento, and Dallas). Philly, Toronto, Orlando, Denver, and (almost) Seattle averaged 99+ (11 teams averaged 99 ppg or better).

In '06-'07, 9 teams averaged 100+ points (Phoenix, Golden State, Denver, Washington, LA Lakers, Memphis, Utah, Sacramento, and Dallas). Milwaukee, Toronto, and Seattle averaged 99+ (12 teams averaged 99 ppg or better).

BTW, I love your chart.

[Gaddabout]

I think people forget how good Joe Johnson and Q were for the Suns. Both were good defenders and really stretched defenses.

Now THAT'S funny. Q was shipped specifically because he was a worse defender than Casey Jacobsen. And that's saying something. He also left Robert Horry in 2005 after D'Antoni told him no less than 5 times NOT TO LEAVE ROBERT HORRY in a late game situation.

[BeerIsGood!]

kevin, with all of your responses youve posted today they have really lead me to believe youve watched a grand total of 4 suns games this year. while the suns arent the defensive force the pistons/spurs are, we have a much better defense with a healthy KT and amare...not to mention the manu stopper. we will have our moments of WTF defense but i think we are in a WAY better position than 2005, and now with a deeper bench guys arent going to be asked to play 43 minutes of play both ways.

Come on, the Suns defense is not any better. You have an on the ball defender in Bell, but nothing resembling team defense. Your rotations are shit and the LAKERS of 2007 put points all over your ass in the 1st round.

Did you watch any of the Denver-SA series? They played their entire team defense towards stopping Manu and TP, and everyone else went off on them. Finley gave it to them with no lube. They were a better defensive team than the Suns, had a better front court defensively, and two of the best scorers in the league - and went down in 5, really 4 after the Spurs woke up from the week off.

The Suns can win if they manage to get 4 games into a run and gun style, but the Spurs are the best at transition defense and controlling tempo.

Who's going to get big burn off the bench?

[sunsfan76]

07 Suns easily. QRich was worthless, Raja Bell is better in every concievable way. JJ was very good, but he was not as good back then as Barbosa is now. Diaw when motivated is very good it's all mental with him, when he wants to be he is an all star.

Amare isn't the scorer he was in 05 right now but he is a much better defender, passer, and rebounder. I think 07 Amare might actually be the better overall player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

suns are overrated, thats why they never get my respect cose i hate them with a passion