Mike Finger: Dirk Nowitzki = David Robinson

[timvp]

Mike Finger: Dirk needs someone like Duncan
San Antonio Express-News

Finger They're calling Dirk Nowitzki a choker, which isn't entirely accurate. You can't give a playoff series away when you never had control of it in the first place.

But people are right when they say Nowitzki is missing something, and it doesn't have anything to do with heart or courage or better post moves. In the end, Nowitzki won't win an NBA championship until he gets the same thing that was lacking by the last MVP to get humiliated this badly.

Like the Admiral, Nowitzki needs his own Tim Duncan.

If that sounds like a slight to either David Robinson or Nowitzki, it isn't. It's just that the list of men capable of carrying a team to a title is incredibly short, and neither Dirk nor David is on it. Do you realize that of the last 16 NBA championships, 15 were won by Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon or Duncan?

Robinson undoubtedly does. In 1995, he was the best player on the best team in the league, just like Nowitzki was this season. The Admiral was the MVP that year, and he had the privilege of picking up his trophy in between Olajuwon "Dream Shakes" during an embarrassing Western Conference finals.

This is where Dirk got lucky — by the time the NBA gets around to handing out this year's award, he'll already be on an island somewhere, with David Hasselhoff on his iPod to drown out the boos.

Unfortunately for Robinson, he had to claim his trophy in person. It was one of the lowlights of his career, and watching a few feet away was a teammate named Avery Johnson, who had no inkling then how close he'd come to living the whole thing over a dozen years later.

Johnson, now Nowitzki's coach, made reference to that long-ago series late Thursday night, after his Dallas Mavericks were finally put out of their misery by Golden State. Johnson said losing to the Warriors was as tough as any defeat he'd endured since the Spurs were trounced by the Rockets in 1995, and somewhere Robinson probably was nodding along with him.

It looked bleak for the Admiral back then, just as it does for Nowitzki now. Robinson turned 30 in the summer of 1995 (Nowitzki will be 29 next month), and that season appeared at the time to be the best opportunity he'd ever get to win a championship.

He and Johnson couldn't have foreseen the break they'd get two years later, when Robinson got hurt, the Spurs dropped into the lottery, and Duncan fell into their laps. Maybe a similar dose of good fortune will eventually find the Mavericks, either through free agency or a trade or another once-in-a-lifetime draft pick.

For now, though, Nowitzki has to face the same reality Robinson did 12 years ago — he can't win a title by himself, and he can't win one with the cast he currently has around him.

Nowitzki has come a long way in his career so far, and the regular season he helped Dallas put together was one of the best of all time. But Thursday night, the truth started to sink in.

"It really means nothing," he said, almost as if he needed to say it out loud to believe it.

Some will say he's to blame for letting it all go to waste, and there's some truth to that. Against a smaller Golden State lineup not known for defense, Nowitzki settled for jumpers, lacked aggressiveness and shot just 2 for 13 from the field in Game 6. But he was getting double-teamed every time he touched the ball, even on the perimeter. So do his struggles reveal any more about him than they do of the teammates who couldn't beat the rest of the Warriors four-on-three?

There's probably enough blame to go around for everyone, just as there was when another talented 7-footer was being called "soft" and a "choker" after an equally humbling playoff exit a decade ago. Robinson bounced back, and chances are Nowitzki will, too.

Both were blessed with as much raw talent as anyone from their respective generations. Both have received more than their share of heat. And both are smart enough to learn from terrible experiences.

The only glaring difference between them is a couple of championship rings. And a sidekick from the Virgin Islands.

[whottt]

Another example of the knowledgable SA media.

[timvp]

:madrun

Are you freakin' serious, Finger? Dirk choked more than any athlete of all-time choked. The only thing embarrassing about David Robinson's performance in the 1995 playoffs was the Spurs coaching philosophy.

And if you are going to criticize anything about Robinson against Hakeem, it'd be his defense. But when the hell has Nowitzki ever played defense? You could have triple teamed that year's Hakeem with three Dirks and Hakeem would have average 50 a game.

And those Spurs made the Western Conference Finals with David Robinson and a borderline All-Star in Sean Elliott and that's it ... and they lost to the defending champion Rockets. Dirk got owned in the first round by an 8th seed after winning 67 games.

It's not even in the same ballpark.

Stupid.

[MannyIsGod]

Fuck this shit. David got the label with far inferior teams to the one Dallas has fielded the past 2 years. I mean the fuck on. Dirk = Vince Carter = Kevin Garnett = Any other all star who plays fucking soft and weak outside. David was the man and controled the paint and dominated games in ways Dirk can only dream of.

[whottt]

It's not like Drob played with a 2 time MVP as his PG for 5 years or anything....or even Michael Finley as his 2 guard.

[whottt]

Lesson to be learned?


Never take one for the team in SA, or the media is always going to gloss you as a choker and underachiever.

Always make sure to be selfish and hog the credit...the SA media doesn't have enough knowledge of the game to understand anything else.


Oh and the most important lesson...if you ever have the opportunity to avoid playing for the team that drafted you and making 10 times more money by playing in LA with HOF'ers(and having a better chance at winning a title)...do it.

You'll just get shit on if you don't. Lesson Learned, SA E News. Goddamn you guys suck ass...worst sport journalism in the state of Texas...Blaze, get a promotion quick.

[MannyIsGod]

It's not like Drob played with a 2 time MVP as his PG for 5 years or anything....or even Michael Finley as his 2 guard.Fucking EXACTLY. When has Dirk been the only star? Never?

Fuck that bullshit hackjob of an article. David never choked away playoffs, EVER. Even in 95 he was simply outplayed by Hakeem but he always showed up.

[timvp]

Unfortunately for Robinson, he had to claim his trophy in person. It was one of the lowlights of his career

Finger can't even get his facts straight on this stupid ass article. It wasn't a lowlight when Robinson received the trophy. The series had just started and even after four games, the Spurs had home court advantage.

Hakeem had the better teammates, the better coaching, the better fans, the better front office and was single-teamed all series.

Comparing David Robinson to 2007 Dirk should be enough to deport Finger out of the city.

[timvp]

Robinson in the 1995 playoffs
25.3 Points
12.1 Rebounds
3.1 Assists
2.6 Blocks
45% FG%

Dirk in the 2007 Playoffs
19.7 Points
11.3 Rebounds
2.3 Assists
1.3 Blocks
38.3% FG%

David Robinson's playoff numbers from 1995 destroy Dirk's "MVP" numbers of the 2007 regular season. I don't know what Finger was smoking, but this article was an embarrassment.

[Obstructed_View]

Robinson in the 1995 playoffs
25.3 Points
12.1 Rebounds
3.1 Assists
2.6 Blocks
45% FG%

Dirk in the 2007 Playoffs
19.7 Points
11.3 Rebounds
2.3 Assists
1.3 Blocks
38.3% FG%

David Robinson's playoff numbers from 1995 destroy Dirk's "MVP" numbers of the 2007 regular season. I don't know what Finger was smoking, but this article was an embarrassment.

Thank you. Find me one example where David scored 8 points in an elimination game. Funny that everyone mentions Hakeem going off on him but then forgets that Hakeem went on to do the same thing to Shaq sweeping him out of the Finals.

[Dro210]

WOW... Pathetic...

I'd break it down, but yall already covered the main points, and I'd just end up sounding redundant

[whottt]

Robinson in the 1995 playoffs
25.3 Points
12.1 Rebounds
3.1 Assists
2.6 Blocks
45% FG%



Even better...compare it to the series Duncan just had against the Nuggets...


20.2 Points
10.6 Rebounds
5.4 Assists
2.8 Blocks
47.3% FG%

Honestly...when DRob put those numbers up against Hakeem it gained him all time bitch status...

David Robinson deserves better than he gets in SA, and it starts with the media. And they've always done it...might as well just read what the ESPN guys like Greg Anthony have to say, that only watch the Spurs about 10 times a year...because all the SAEN guys are going to do is parrot Greg Anthony.

Believe it or not it's better than it used to be...In the late 80's and early 90's I used to have to read the DMN to get good Spurs coverage, half the time the SAEN wouldn't even have late scores.

[whottt]

SAEN - Throwing Robinson under the Bus(to prove they are as knowledgable as the ESPN guys) since 1987.

[Dro210]

SAEN - Throwing Robinson under the Bus(to prove they are as knowledgable as the ESPN guys) since 1987.

Ha... Classic... and so true

I'll never understand it, but I'll always hate it

[Sec24Row7]

ROFL... the rockets won the Championship... how is it a choke job to lose to the eventual NBA champ in the THIRD round?

[Slippy]

David Robinson lost to the eventual champions, no shame or comparison in that.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, imagine how many championships DRob would have won with Dirk's supporting cast. Just plug in Jason Terry a few seasons and you have a dynasty.

[TwoHandJam]

I couldn't even believe my eyes when I saw the title of this article. Finger is one ignorant fuck. He's a blight on the SA media scene - and that's saying something.

[Sec24Row7]

I can' t get over what a dipshit this guy is...

[timvp]

Just read it again . . .


There's probably enough blame to go around for everyone, just as there was when another talented 7-footer was being called "soft" and a "choker" after an equally humbling playoff exit a decade ago.

EQUALLY HUMBLING PLAYOFF EXIT?!?!?!?

Dirk getting owned and disappearing in the greatest sporting collapse of all-time is equal to losing in the Western Conference Finals in six games to the defending NBA champions who went on to sweep Shaquille O'Neal in the Finals?

You take Hakeem and Robinson out of that series and the Rockets sweep and win each game by 30+. Drexler, Horry, Elie, Cassell? You are talking about some of the clutchest players of All-Time versus a skittish Sean Elliott, an overmatched AJ, a disinterested Rodman and a shouldn't-have-been-in-the-NBA Del Negro.

And Finger wants to compare 2-for-13 in Game 6 of the first round against an 8th seed Dirk to Robinson?

Amazing.

[timvp]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/images/finger75.jpg

Was this guy even alive during the 1994-95 season?

[gilmor]

You guys are fucking awesome.. When I first read that Finger's article, I wonder what weed is Finger smoking.. DRob is my favorite player of all time.

[ZStomp]

I mentioned this exact thing to a buddy yesterday.

[DarrinS]

Comparing Dirk's performance against GS to DRob's 1995 performance is beyond stupid.

It's not like Dave got smoked by a bunch of unknown guards on an 8th-seeded team in the FIRST F'ING ROUND!

It was the WCF and he was playing against one of the best big men EVER, who was playing his best series EVER.


Mike Finger. I give you a finger of my own. :flipoff

[dimsah]

I'm... astonished. I don't have the words. wow.

[Russ]

The comparison can be overstated but it's valid. Neither Dirk nor Dave are the type of player to carry a team to a title because (1) they don't have a go to move at the end of the game and (2) they don't have that stubborn indomitable edge. The point of the article is not to disparage Dave -- he's one of the all time greats. It just points out that the list of players that lead teams to the title is very short -- over a period of 16 years, 15 of the titles were won by 4 guys.

[A.H 21-50]

Nobody can compare robinson to nowitzki

dRob was a better player and not with a big team

stupid thing..............

[conversekid]

Odd it doesn't mention how shaq was swept twice in his life.... if you take dirk off the mavs and put in drob, they would destroy every one.

[td4mvp3]

i was going along with the guy's article until i read your rebuttals. it seems like the guy just wanted to say don't count dirk out, he just needs more help. that means the author should have stuck to comparing supporting casts or something, because the comparison based on the fact that both men won the mvp during the time they got knocked out of the playoffs probably doesn't hold much water. are we saying this is the only time a regular season mvp has not gotten the championship? obviously not, so that tenet of his argument tumbles. after that, there isn't a whole lot to compare dirk to robinson aside from the time it took to get a ring. and even that argument gets shot down since it took jordan six or eight years before he got his first.

[samikeyp]

It's not like Drob played with a 2 time MVP as his PG for 5 years or anything....or even Michael Finley as his 2 guard.

Amen.


Comparing David Robinson to 2007 Dirk should be enough to deport Finger out of the city.

Deport? No...we are Texans...I say shoot him. :)

[FromWayDowntown]

If that sounds like a slight to either David Robinson or Nowitzki, it isn't. It's just that the list of men capable of carrying a team to a title is incredibly short, and neither Dirk nor David is on it. Do you realize that of the last 16 NBA championships, 15 were won by Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon or Duncan?

11 of the last 16 championships were won by Robert Horry or Steve Kerr.

Finger's take is reprehensible. There's a quantum difference between a guy who demotes himself to a role player because he can't handle the pressure being applied to him and a guy who continues to step up but is out played by a Hall of Famer having a sublime couple of weeks. David's games in that Houston series (pts-rebounds) were:

Game 1: 21-9
Game 2: 32-12
Game 3: 29-9
Game 4: 20-16
Game 5: 22-12
Game 6: 19-10

(If his rebounding numbers seem a tad on the limited side, remember that David was sharing the front court with Dennis Rodman, who averaged 15 boards per game in that series, and had games of 17, 19, 14, and 20 rebounds.)

But more than that, the boxscores reflect that David continued to play his game during that series. He averaged 15 FGA and 12 FTA per game in that series. (for whatever it's worth, Olajuwon averaged almost 28 shots per night but only got to the line 5 times per game). David shot better than 50% in 4 of the 6 games in that series, including games of 10-15 and 10-18 (Games 4 and 5).

Stats don't tell the whole story, of course, but trying to compare Dirk making himself into a role player and David playing well, but just not well enough, is ridiculous.

[FromWayDowntown]

Deport? No...we are Texans...I say shoot him. :)

Get a rope.

[ducks]

time to jam him email box

[Don Quixote]

Yeah, Finger ignores some data & facts in his article. His argument seems based more on emotions and feelings than anything quantifiable.

Here's emotion, however. The 1995 Spurs broke my heart. I still get all emotional thinking about that team.

[ambchang]

Thank you. Find me one example where David scored 8 points in an elimination game. Funny that everyone mentions Hakeem going off on him but then forgets that Hakeem went on to do the same thing to Shaq sweeping him out of the Finals.
Correction, Hakeem went on to average 33 ppg with Shaq and Horace Grant double teaming him in the next round sweep over the Magic.

[ambchang]

The comparison can be overstated but it's valid. Neither Dirk nor Dave are the type of player to carry a team to a title because (1) they don't have a go to move at the end of the game and (2) they don't have that stubborn indomitable edge. The point of the article is not to disparage Dave -- he's one of the all time greats. It just points out that the list of players that lead teams to the title is very short -- over a period of 16 years, 15 of the titles were won by 4 guys.
So by that logic.
Karl Malone = Nowitzki = Robinon = Barkley = Thurmond = Baylor = Gervin = Koncak = Nique = Mark Eaton = every other NBA player who has never won a ring.
Because we all know that not winning the ring is the one common thread, without regard of reason.

[Marcus Bryant]

Am I surprised that an article like this would appear? Not really. Am I surprised that it would show up in the Excuse for News? A little.

The 2007 Mavs are a more talented team than the 2007 Warriors. The Spurs in '95 were not the more talented team, which should not come as a surprise to anyone who was a Spurs fan during the early to mid 90s.

DRob carried some rather anemic and disgusting supporting casts during those years. Sure, those teams were good enough to rack up 50+ wins a season but predictably met an early fate in most postseasons. Put DRob on a team with the talent the Mavs have on the perimeter and we'd never have had to wait until 1999 to raise the first banner.

In addition, it's amazing to me how Kevin Garnett has gone unmentioned in this discussion.

I will now leave with this parting shot: SG Vinny Del Negro.

[alamo50]

The sad thing is that Mike Fingered most probably got the idea to write the shameful article after reading a certain dumbass post in here yesterday.

I am ashamed that Mr. Robinson will be reading this in the San Antonio newspaper today.

[DarrinS]

This is also the same Rockets team that was the NBA champion the previous year and the same team that beat a very good 2-seeded Utah Jazz (60-22), then beat a very good 3-seeded Phoenix Suns (59-23), before beating SA in the WCF.

People also forget that the Spurs lost the first two games at home before winning the next 2 games IN HOUSTON. Does that sound like surrender to you?


1 1995-05-22 SAS HOU L 93-94 HOU leads 1-0
2 1995-05-24 SAS HOU L 96-106 HOU leads 2-0
3 1995-05-26 SAS @HOU W 107-102 HOU leads 2-1
4 1995-05-28 SAS @HOU W 103-81 Tied 2-2
5 1995-05-30 SAS HOU L 90-111 HOU leads 3-2
6 1995-06-01 SAS @HOU L 95-100 HOU wins 4-2

[Man of Steel]

Dear David:

Please don't read today's newspaper.

As usual--its full of shit.

Signed,

Editor Bob Rivard

[Russ]

So by that logic.
Karl Malone = Nowitzki = Robinon = Barkley = Thurmond = Baylor = Gervin = Koncak = Nique = Mark Eaton = every other NBA player who has never won a ring.
Because we all know that not winning the ring is the one common thread, without regard of reason.

In the case of DRob and Dirk, the similarities are obvious. They are big men without a consistent "go to" move down low and they were not able to put their teams on their backs.

The differences are also obvious -- DRob didn't have a low post move because he relied strictly on athleticism around the hoop, Dirk because he has a great mid-range jumper. RDob was a great defensive player (who simply couldn't stop the unstoppable Hakeem), Dirk has no D.

The article is uncontroversial and merely acknowledges what many have been observing for years, including Steve Kerr and Dr. Jack Ramsey.

More to the point, where was all this support for DRob when the same "let's run 'im outta town" crowd was seething at DRob for simply re-signing with the Spurs in 2001? Herd mentality and conventional wisdom run amok, just with a different target. :)

[ATXSPUR]

Lesson to be learned?


Never take one for the team in SA, or the media is always going to gloss you as a choker and underachiever.

Always make sure to be selfish and hog the credit...the SA media doesn't have enough knowledge of the game to understand anything else.


Oh and the most important lesson...if you ever have the opportunity to avoid playing for the team that drafted you and making 10 times more money by playing in LA with HOF'ers(and having a better chance at winning a title)...do it.

You'll just get shit on if you don't. Lesson Learned, SA E News. Goddamn you guys suck ass...worst sport journalism in the state of Texas...Blaze, get a promotion quick.

Whoa calm down. Not in the state. Have you read some of the crap Kirk Bohls writes here in Austin. And dont get me started on the bias crap dallas writes. This article is BS though...

[BigBeezie]

Mike Finger should have not compared No"show"itzki to the Admiral. Those are two different scenarios and losing to the "Dream" is nothing to be embarrased about.

All Finger had to say was this: Look, Dirk is a jump shooter that isn't aggressive, doesn't play D and won't take it to the basket. He needs a big man that gets second chance points and crashes the boards while scoring down low. When your team's center and low post presence averages somewhere around 24 minutes in series...you're probably going to have a hard time.

[L.I.T]

Comparing Robinson to Nowitski is comparing apples and oranges. The only thing you can say, the broadest sense, is they are/were atraditional offensive players for their size. It ends there. Robinson was saddled with some of the least talented teams imaginable (for supposed championship caliber), and yet he somehow found a way to elevate the play of his less talented teammates and will them into the playoffs every year. I have yet to see Nowitski raise the level of his teammates play, or even actively impose his will on another team. Can you remember a playoff series where all you could talk about was the way Dirk willed his team to victory?

This is an asinine comparison, and further proof that upon the death of traditional print media I will not shed a tear. This just proves that seeking well-thought out sports takes and information is no longer found in newspapers and print media, but on the internet sports sites and forums.

Go fuck yourself Finger, log onto the net and see what sports journalism is all about.

[Uncle Donnie]

Besides the fact that David could have only dreamed of having supporting casts even close to the level that Dirk enjoyed the past several years, let's not forget about the coaching.

I mean, I think Avery Johnson is a little cockroach but the guy was Coach of the Year. No one in their right mind would equate him with Bob Hill.

[Das Texan]

Finger needs to get an ass reaming.


This is fucking stupid. He must have been searching for something to write about and decided to pull this out of his ass.


Or maybe he actually believes this. Awesome.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What a fucking idiot. If DRob had ever had half the supporting cast that Dirk had this year, he would have won a ring or three.

Someone needs to drive down to the Excuse for News and beat the shit out of this guy.

[TDMVPDPOY]

robinson didnt choke in the first round..thats the fuckn difference

[Obstructed_View]

More to the point, where was all this support for DRob when the same "let's run 'im outta town" crowd was seething at DRob for simply re-signing with the Spurs in 2001? Herd mentality and conventional wisdom run amok, just with a different target. :)
The above has about as much to do with Robinson's performance on the court as the '95 WCF has to do with the Mavs-Warriors series.

[pad300]

Robinson in the 1995 playoffs
25.3 Points
12.1 Rebounds
3.1 Assists
2.6 Blocks
45% FG%



Even better...compare it to the series Duncan just had against the Nuggets...


20.2 Points
10.6 Rebounds
5.4 Assists
2.8 Blocks
47.3% FG%

Honestly...when DRob put those numbers up against Hakeem it gained him all time bitch status...

David Robinson deserves better than he gets in SA, and it starts with the media. And they've always done it...might as well just read what the ESPN guys like Greg Anthony have to say, that only watch the Spurs about 10 times a year...because all the SAEN guys are going to do is parrot Greg Anthony.

Believe it or not it's better than it used to be...In the late 80's and early 90's I used to have to read the DMN to get good Spurs coverage, half the time the SAEN wouldn't even have late scores.

I'd be a little careful with that comparison Whott. I'd like to see the numbers adjusted for pace (on a per 100 possesions basis) before I'd say that the Admiral had a better series than Tim did. That was in a much faster era of the NBA, while the Spurs slowed this Denver series right down...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'd be a little careful with that comparison Whott. I'd like to see the numbers adjusted for pace (on a per 100 possesions basis) before I'd say that the Admiral had a better series than Tim did. That was in a much faster era of the NBA, while the Spurs slowed this Denver series right down...

Neither the Rockettes nor the Spurs were playing 'fast' except on fast breaks. Both teams operated traditional half court offenses - Spurs through DRob, Rockets through Hakeem.

[clubalien]

I would trade barry and scola for dirk and dirk could have his very own tim duncan :D

[Phenomanul]

People better press that the newspaper submit an apologetic article in light of its misinformed authors.

[Spurs rock]

Mike Finger = Dirk Nowitzki

[mardigan]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mfinger/stories/MYSA050507.01C.COL.BKNfinger.nowitzki.3538c10.html
You can email him here

[whottt]

More to the point, where was all this support for DRob when the same "let's run 'im outta town" crowd was seething at DRob for simply re-signing with the Spurs in 2001? Herd mentality and conventional wisdom run amok, just with a different target. :)


Quoted for cluelessness....

The crowd wasn't mad at DRob...they were mad at the Spurs for attempting to screw him, way to prove you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...

Mike.

[whottt]

I'd be a little careful with that comparison Whott. I'd like to see the numbers adjusted for pace (on a per 100 possesions basis) before I'd say that the Admiral had a better series than Tim did. That was in a much faster era of the NBA, while the Spurs slowed this Denver series right down...


Or just maybe...DRob pretty much had shitty teams and coaches...just maybe, that's fucking it.


Just maybe, his rep as being a soft choking bitch, is an underserved one...

Just maybe, it was a lottery team without him on it...




I can find worse comparisons if you like...

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

:vomit: @ this article.

[SRJ]

Odd it doesn't mention how shaq was swept twice in his life

Not twice. Six times

1994, Indiana d. Orlando, 3-0, rd. 1
1995, Houston d. Orlando, 4-0, NBA Finals
1996, Chicago d. Orlando, 4-0, EC Finals
1998, Utah d. LA Lakers, 4-0, WC Finals
1999, San Antonio d. LA Lakers, 4-0, rd. 2
2007, Chicago d. Miami, 4-0, rd. 1

[whottt]

David's teams never even blew a series they had the lead in(unless it was 1-0)....


And none of them were swept....not even by the Jazz...

And for a guy with no goto move...Drob sure did see a lot of double teams. I wonder why...


I've never yet seen Dirk draw the double and triple teams that Drob did...except in International Competition.

[Russ]

Quoted for cluelessness....

The crowd wasn't mad at DRob...they were mad at the Spurs for attempting to screw him, way to prove you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...

Mike.

How completely and utterly wrong you are. The "crowd" was mad because they saw DRob as taking the money that their "savior" Chris Webber could have had. Robinson was washed up according to the internet posters -- the Spurs only hope was to sign Webber.

We can disagree about opinions, Next time, get your facts right.

[ShoogarBear]

In the case of DRob and Dirk, the similarities are obvious. They are big men without a consistent "go to" move down low and they were not able to put their teams on their backs.

The differences are also obvious -- DRob didn't have a low post move because he relied strictly on athleticism around the hoop, Dirk because he has a great mid-range jumper. RDob was a great defensive player (who simply couldn't stop the unstoppable Hakeem), Dirk has no D.

The article is uncontroversial and merely acknowledges what many have been observing for years, including Steve Kerr and Dr. Jack Ramsey.

More to the point, where was all this support for DRob when the same "let's run 'im outta town" crowd was seething at DRob for simply re-signing with the Spurs in 2001? Herd mentality and conventional wisdom run amok, just with a different target. :)What the hell are you talking about?

Are you Mike Finger?

[Samr]

The dude wasn't comparing statistics. He wasn't a series performance. He was comparing two players who share a few similar traits, and the point of his piece was that Dirk may be a good player but he cannot win by himself because he is not that type of player.

Y'all are faulting him for using DRob and Duncan, but he is a SAN ANTONIO beat writer. He HAS to use someone like Robinson because he has to relate his point to the local readership. Connect to your audience by using a comparison they understand. Y'all are making a big deal and critiquing something that is almost completely irrelevant to the entire point of the piece.

This discussion should have been about if Dirk can win a title by himself, like the article questioned, and NOT an overextended comparison of Dirk to the names used. It is possible to find fault in anything, and in this case, I guess we have. Too bad is was misplaced and almost completely irrelevant fault. So let's all pat ourselves on the back for being some of the most anal fanboys of any NBA city. God forbid we ever allow a writer to make a point.

[baseline bum]

Russ is right on. I was one of the people who wanted Webber in 2001, and I was far from alone. That 2001 beatdown from the Lakers made a lot of us want to completely blow up the team, save Duncan.

[mabber]

The dude wasn't comparing statistics. He wasn't a series performance. He was comparing two players who share a few similar traits, and the point of his piece was that Dirk may be a good player but he cannot win by himself because he is not that type of player.

Y'all are faulting him for using DRob and Duncan, but he is a SAN ANTONIO beat writer. He HAS to use someone like Robinson because he has to relate his point to the local readership. Connect to your audience by using a comparison they understand. Y'all are making a big deal and critiquing something that is almost completely irrelevant to the entire point of the piece.

This discussion should have been about if Dirk can win a title by himself, like the article questioned, and NOT an overextended comparison of Dirk to the names used. It is possible to find fault in anything, and in this case, I guess we have. Too bad is was misplaced and almost completely irrelevant fault. So let's all pat ourselves on the back for being some of the most anal fanboys of any NBA city. God forbid we ever allow a writer to make a point.

This is what I was thinking about that article. I thought it was funny that everyone got their panties all in a bunch over it as they obviously missed the point the writer was making.

[Russ]

This is what I was thinking about that article. I thought it was funny that everyone got their panties all in a bunch over it as they obviously missed the point the writer was making.
Bingo.

[aaronstampler]

Is my memory funny or didn't Dave lead the Spurs in scoring all six games, despite being constantly double teamed?

The reason we lost the series was simple, our guys didn't knock down enough open shots, Elliott couldn't guard Drexler to save his life, and Rodman couldn't be bothered to guard anybody because he was too intent on rebounding.

[Russ]

Is my memory funny or didn't Dave lead the Spurs in scoring all six games, despite being constantly double teamed?

The reason we lost the series was simple, our guys didn't knock down enough open shots, Elliott couldn't guard Drexler to save his life, and Rodman couldn't be bothered to guard anybody because he was too intent on rebounding.
Ironically, the reason we lost the series was . . .

Big Shot Rob! (check out the end of Game 2)

BTW, Rodman was more intent on punishing the Spurs for not offering him a big money deal as he had been "promised" than rebounding or anything else.

[VaSpursFan]

wow...this writer is a complete moron...how did they even let this bullshit get published.

[aaronstampler]

Ironically, the reason we lost the series was . . .

Big Shot Rob! (check out the end of Game 2)

BTW, Rodman was more intent on punishing the Spurs for not offering him a big money deal as he had been "promised" than rebounding or anything else.


I think you mean Game 1. We were up 2 with Sean at the line to ice the game, and he missed both shots. Then Horry hit a 3 and we lost Game 1. I think Game 2 was more one-sided.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:lmao

rack the timvp

[judaspriestess]

dirk and David Robinson are two different scenarios. Yeah, David Robinson was outplayed by another player who was playing at a level that was out of this world. shaq choked against Hakeem also, does that come into play?

+ David always had mediocre players (besides Sean Elliot) playing around him for a long time. Olajuwon had, Drexler, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Sam Cassell, Horry and few others as his supporting cast. David Robinson couldn't do everything. Lame

[whottt]

How completely and utterly wrong you are. The "crowd" was mad because they saw DRob as taking the money that their "savior" Chris Webber could have had. Robinson was washed up according to the internet posters -- the Spurs only hope was to sign Webber.

We can disagree about opinions, Next time, get your facts right.


Um...when Drob said he was thinking about leaving for NY because the Spurs were lowballing him, in one of SA's finer moments there was a near revolt and the team was inudated with calls reaming the team for doing that to David Robinson....and Drob got what he wanted...and thank god he did.


The only people calling for CWebb were a bunch of statheads on message boards.

You need to get your facts straight...Drob owned the Spurs in that negotiation the second he took it public, not that CWebb was going to sign anyway. And thank god he didn't.

And it was game 1...Mr. Fact.

[timvp]

The dude wasn't comparing statistics. He wasn't a series performance.

Did you read the article? The word "equally" usually indicates a comparison being made.


He was comparing two players who share a few similar traits, and the point of his piece was that Dirk may be a good player but he cannot win by himself because he is not that type of player.

That was the point he was trying to get across, but he did so horribly.


Y'all are faulting him for using DRob and Duncan, but he is a SAN ANTONIO beat writer. He HAS to use someone like Robinson because he has to relate his point to the local readership. Connect to your audience by using a comparison they understand.

That doesn't give him license to get his facts wrong while simultaneously throwing the legacy of David Robinson under the bus. Dirk is the laughing stock of the sporting world and Finger fingered Robinson as a historical comparison.


This discussion should have been about if Dirk can win a title by himself, like the article questioned, and NOT an overextended comparison of Dirk to the names used.

Finger is the one who went as far as equating their performances. If he wanted to say that Nowitzki needs a superstar next to him to win a championship like Robinson ended up needing, that'd be fine.

What was ridiculous was Finger went beyond that and compared individual series.


It is possible to find fault in anything, and in this case, I guess we have. Too bad is was misplaced and almost completely irrelevant fault. So let's all pat ourselves on the back for being some of the most anal fanboys of any NBA city. God forbid we ever allow a writer to make a point.

:jack

God forbid we hold a writer up to the standards of getting facts straight.

Finger obviously didn't watch the 1995 series and anyone who thinks he isn't offbase obviously didn't watch it either.

[timvp]

And as far as that Robinson and Webber situation in 2001, it's true that there were a section of "Spurs fans" who thought Robinson was finished and should be thrown away. But that mostly came from DG and was parroted by his sheep.

[ambchang]

In the case of DRob and Dirk, the similarities are obvious. They are big men without a consistent "go to" move down low and they were not able to put their teams on their backs.

Which is what the problem is, the sweeping generalization is disturbing and unfair. Spurs had Sean Elliott, an insane Dennis Rodman, Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro (plus no bench), the Mavs have Howard, Terry, Stackhouse, Harris, and a few bruising big man. And for a player with no go to move down low to lead, or be one of the top in FTAs year in and year out, you have to wonder why.


The differences are also obvious -- DRob didn't have a low post move because he relied strictly on athleticism around the hoop, Dirk because he has a great mid-range jumper. RDob was a great defensive player (who simply couldn't stop the unstoppable Hakeem), Dirk has no D.

The article is uncontroversial and merely acknowledges what many have been observing for years, including Steve Kerr and Dr. Jack Ramsey.

More to the point, where was all this support for DRob when the same "let's run 'im outta town" crowd was seething at DRob for simply re-signing with the Spurs in 2001? Herd mentality and conventional wisdom run amok, just with a different target. :)
Robinson was never ran out of town, I would love to read a few articles talking about how DRob does not belong to SA, it was much much more the crowd unhappy with what FO was doing.

[Russ]

Um...when Drob said he was thinking about leaving for NY because the Spurs were lowballing him, in one of SA's finer moments there was a near revolt and the team was inudated with calls reaming the team for doing that to David Robinson....
Actually, it was season ticket holders that complained, that's the reason the Spurs cared.


The only people calling for CWebb were a bunch of statheads on message boards.
Actually, the Spurs were recruiting him. They even prepared a custom videotape to try to get him to visit. It was in all the papers.


You need to get your facts straight...Drob owned the Spurs in that negotiation the second he took it public, not that CWebb was going to sign anyway. And thank god he didn't.

Actually, Robinson only went public after the Spurs launched a PR offensive of their own, leaking word that Popovich thought DRob was through.


And it was game 1...Mr. Fact.
Right you are.

[Russ]

Robinson was never ran out of town, I would love to read a few articles talking about how DRob does not belong to SA, it was much much more the crowd unhappy with what FO was doing.
I am only criticizing message board posters who wanted DRob gone and acted like he was a persona non grata after all he did for the Spurs franchise. In fact, one of the posters in this very thread, during the siummer of 2001, posted a thread purporting to "indict" DRob for crimes against the Spurs. His crime? Instead of sulking off into retiremnet he forced the Spurs to re-sign him, thus robbing the Spurs of the money to sign the great savior Webber (which, of course, was never going happen.)

After 2003, these people jumped back on the bandwagon and attacked everryone who criticized Robinson -- like this Finger article -- as if none of their prior tirades had ever happened.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't believe anyone contemplated Pop visiting DRob in Maui and putting a $1 mil annual offer in front of him while telling him he was "done." Let's not forget that the Spurs were coming off what was easily the most embarrassing postseason performance in Spurs history, and that includes when Nellie worked his magic in 1991.

[Russ]

I don't believe anyone contemplated Pop visiting DRob in Maui and putting a $1 mil annual offer in front of him while telling him he was "done." Let's not forget that the Spurs were coming off what was easily the most embarrassing postseason performance in Spurs history, and that includes when Nellie worked his magic in 1991.
No question, it was a disastrous postseason and we were all frustrated.

But Pop's flight to Maui happened only after the season-ticketholder revolt -- the Spurs had to do it at that point.

[whottt]

Actually, it was season ticket holders that complained, that's the reason the Spurs cared.

Season ticket holders = fans...surprise!



Actually, the Spurs were recruiting him. They even prepared a custom videotape to try to get him to visit. It was in all the papers.

Oh I have no doubt the Spurs would have signed him...but there would not have been a whlole lot of support for it...

See Rose, Malilk.

And CWebb wanted no part of SA....other than to get him paid and perks...see Kidd, Jason.






Actually, Robinson only went public after the Spurs launched a PR offensive of their own, leaking word that Popovich thought DRob was through.

And that changes my point that Drob got what he wanted after going public, how?


I'm saying 2+2=4

You are saying, no, 2+2 is math.


Doesn't change the fact that 2+2 still =4.

[timvp]

I am only criticizing message board posters who wanted DRob gone and acted like he was a persona non grata after all he did for the Spurs franchise. In fact, one of the posters in this very thread, during the siummer of 2001, posted a thread purporting to "indict" DRob for crimes against the Spurs. His crime? Instead of sulking off into retiremnet he forced the Spurs to re-sign him, thus robbing the Spurs of the money to sign the great savior Webber (which, of course, was never going happen.)

There were quite a few "Spurs fans" who thought Robinson was done (or "broken" as they liked to say at the time) and wanted him gone. I still remember laughing at those who said Webber was the answer.

As I said at the time, Webber would have ruined this franchise. He was a playoff choker to the utmost degree and on top of that, didn't make sense next to Duncan.

I do forgive some of the Spurs fans back then for bashing Robinson and backing Webber as that was the stance taken by the untouchable DG at the time. The sheep mentality was in full effect in 2001.

I forgot exactly who was and wasn't on the Webber bandwagon. Care to name names, Russ?

:stirpot:

[Russ]

I'm saying 2+2=4

You are saying, no, 2+2 is math.


Doesn't change the fact that 2+2 still =4.

Good lord. This game tomorrow can't start soon enough.

[conversekid]

DG = Dusty Garza?

[whottt]

I am only criticizing message board posters who wanted DRob gone and acted like he was a persona non grata after all he did for the Spurs franchise. In fact, one of the posters in this very thread, during the siummer of 2001, posted a thread purporting to "indict" DRob for crimes against the Spurs. His crime? Instead of sulking off into retiremnet he forced the Spurs to re-sign him, thus robbing the Spurs of the money to sign the great savior Webber (which, of course, was never going happen.)

After 2003, these people jumped back on the bandwagon and attacked everryone who criticized Robinson -- like this Finger article -- as if none of their prior tirades had ever happened.


And BTW, I pretty much agree with the sentiment here...but the fan reaction was just the opposite. The people wanting to fuck Drob were the minority.

[Marcus Bryant]

At the time I favored the Webber pursuit along with retaining DRob. Unfeasible, perhaps, but in 2001 we witnessed this:



http://media.funny.co.uk/files/2756.jpg

So I was pretty much open to whatever.

[whottt]

There were quite a few "Spurs fans" who thought Robinson was done (or "broken" as they liked to say at the time) and wanted him gone. I still remember laughing at those who said Webber was the answer.

As I said at the time, Webber would have ruined this franchise. He was a playoff choker to the utmost degree and on top of that, didn't make sense next to Duncan.


This was the sentiment by most people even then....including fans of other teams.




I do forgive some of the Spurs fans back then for bashing Robinson and backing Webber as that was the stance taken by the untouchable DG at the time. The sheep mentality was in full effect in 2001.

I forgot exactly who was and wasn't on the Webber bandwagon. Care to name names, Russ?

:stirpot:

You mean aside from Ghostwriter and base?

It's probably the same people that say we should trade Duncan, Parker sucks, Bruce sucks, Manu sucks...

A minority of the fans.
Most of the fans said fuck DA.
And most of them said fuck Webber.

This excludes Pop of course who salivates after unrealistic FA pretty much every chance he gets...although in my gut I think Duncan was the impetus for the Kidd pursuit.

[Russ]

I forgot exactly who was and wasn't on the Webber bandwagon. Care to name names, Russ?

:stirpot:

Since you mention it, here were my thoughts at the time. This was a long email I sent to one DG in the summer of '01 because I was too angry about the DRob thing to post.

D —

I haven't posted this because, frankly, I don't like to speak negatively and I sense that the phenomenon of negativity on your page needs no boost from me at this point. I am sending you this message because I greatly respect your efforts and I think you have one of the best sports- related web pages that I have seen. Having said that, I would like to give you my constructive criticism.

Last night in the "chat" room (and on the bulletin board) I was surprised by the negative, defeatist, and, ultimately, irrational tenor of the discussion. Such pessimism was particularly hard to stomach from persons who otherwise incessantly (and graphically) boast of their limitless bravado and machismo. Even sober, sane and intelligent souls such as Mike Harmon seemed to be in on the orgy of despair.

In short, the world seemed to be turned upside down in the manner that a foolish husband might briefly perceive the world when his head is turned by a "home wrecker." Usually he comes to his senses — hopefully not too late. I use that analogy because I think that it is particularly applicable here. It seems to be an article of faith, beyond any doubt, and certainly beyond any criticism or rational analysis, that the Spurs could have had Chris Webber had the Spurs just played along — that he was in "the palm of our hands." From this unassailable premise do all other arguments, criticisms and, now, plaintive laments, flow. I must admit, I would agree with, or at least be more sympathetic to, many of the brickbats being hurled at Peter Holt, the Spurs, and David Robinson, if I believed the underlying premise that spawned them. For example, it makes perfect sense to me that having Webber rather than Robinson might increase the chances of Tim's staying in 2003. If so, then the Spurs can be criticized for giving in to public pressure of the moment (i.e., public outcry over the treatment of the Admiral) rather than seeing the "big picture" — keeping Tim long term.

The problem is, of course, the premise from which everything flows — that Webber was there to be had and the Spurs blew it. In the case of our little group, it seems to have been based upon one part wishful thinking, one part interpreting even the smallest morsel of information in the most favorable possible manner, and, perhaps, one part collective fantasy. I could never see at the time that it was happening, nor can I see now, any reason to believe that the Spurs could have obtained Webber. The evidence to the contrary was, and is, overwhelming. Despite what was reported as the Spurs going "hard" after Webber, harder than any other team, making "pleas" to Webber, sending videotapes, begging for telephone conversations (much less meetings), the Express-News finally reported that "ironically, the most enthusiastic" response we got from Webber was after the announcement of Robinson's signing. And what was this "most enthusiastic" response? — "a call from Webber's camp" — this, after days during which the Spurs "never spoke to Webber personally" and "were forced to gauge Webber's interest through his representatives and media reports." (Express-News). In short, Weber treated San Antonio and the Spurs precisely the way a person who has repeatedly stated his preference for big cities and his dislike for smaller towns could have been predicted to treat us — with a detachment bordering upon disdain. Did he even watch the video? As I may have mentioned in one of the chats — the Spurs sending a video to Webber in lieu of actually being able to set up a meeting with him was telling. It smacks of the same desperation and "beseeching" behavior that characterized Pop's ill-fated desperate flight to Detroit to try to get Grant Hill (after he'd stated he'd go to Orlando) . I didn't think that was one of the Spurs' finer hours and I don't think that continuing our desperate quest for an "audience" with Chris Webber would have ultimately served us, or our reputations, well either. Remember, the "home wrecker" analogy — if the foolish husband persists too long, he may lose those who really care about him and have been loyal to him in the past, i.e., the current Spurs who, after all, helped us win a World Championship.

Which brings us to Chris Webber, himself — the object of such unrequited adulation. Actually, I don't think his motives were malicious or, even, insincere. I think that his interest in the Spurs may have been sincere in the way that you or I might sincerely, albeit momentarily, want one item on a lunch menu and then decide upon another item as we are blurting out our order. It's not that we weren't serious about our desire to order the first item — its just that it wasn't that big a deal either way. I believe that is the way Mr. Webber operates and it has stood him in good stead so far, so who's to argue. The fact of the matter is, Webber should stay in Sacramento for a variety of reasons that are of no moment here. And he will likely stay in Sacramento. But probably not for any of those many good and compelling reasons — he'll stay because its the easiest course of action and he's made a habit of taking such easiest courses. Call it inertia, if you wish. I would imagine that Webber's thought process was something like this — I'm a good guy who likes to keep all options open and not hurt anyone's feelings (remember, I got burned by heat ESPN the Mag story where I trashed Sacramento). Therefore, I'll make the appropriate rounds, go through the motions, press the flesh (except in San Antonio) and pay respects to my hometown (Detroit), my friends (Billy Owens — Detroit), Jalen Rose (Indiana), and Tim Duncan (San Antonio) — no sense making anyone feel left out — and, who knows, maybe I'll change my order at the last minute. But, in the meantime, I won't let any of it interfere with my vacation plans and I won't waste a lot of time hiring agents who could make such a move really happen — if it ever gets serious, I can always ask my brother to step aside in favor of a pro.

None of this is particularly remarkable except that the Spurs could have lost their "family," i.e., the ever-faithful David Robinson, the season ticket holders who pay the bills and many other loyal fans, if their pursuit of Chris Webber had persisted after it became painfully obvious that it was in vain. The longtime Spurs, the season ticket holders, the owner, himself — they are not the villains here — they are the ones who brought the dreamers back to reality in the nick of time, before the family was wrecked over an unworthy object of affection. Nor are they the stupid and shortsighted ones who lack the common sense to truly perceive the "only" way to keep Tim Duncan. They are, in fact, the ones who possess all the more common sense (like the dutiful family as opposed to the foolish husband). Yet they are condemned as "stupid" (or worse) and unworthy of even our most tepid respect, much less admiration or gratitude. David Robinson has repeatedly taken less money and the chance to go larger markets to stay with the Spurs — he spent $5 million of his own money to start a school — yet David Robinson is a villain, nothing more than an impediment to our otherwise certain signing of the great and wonderful Chris Webber — Webber, of course, a true and worthy Spur. And the insults continue to pour out unabated. Nothing is too low to call the "Admiral." We comment sarcastically, "Thanks, David, you (fill in the vile term)." Or Holt. "Great thinking, Holt, you screwed us out of Webber just to keep Robinson. Good choice."

And even now that it is over, the party line continues. Now, with the same unquestioned certainty that the Spurs would, of course, sign Chris Webber (and Grant Hill, before him), we are now asked to believe that, no doubt, Tim Duncan will leave in 2003. We apparently are not allowed to consider the possibility that something good might actually happen within the next two years to cause Tim to stay, such as, the team gets some good young players or finds a new "fire" from an unexpected source (did anyone expect Mario Ellie to be our biggest pickup the year we won the title?). Or Tim starts to think of an San Antonio as "home" (maybe his girlfriend will have some sway) and wants to stay even if the team might have a tough year or two. Maybe Tim even starts to feel a position of responsibility and leadership so that rather than constantly watching the Spurs walk on eggshells to try to please him, he feels an obligation to the Spurs to make the team better and has no desire to leave in the face of adversity. In our little world, however, such thoughts are forbidden. Coach Dom posts a nice argument for David over Chris Webber, at least in some aspects, and he is called all but stupid, i.e., "people like you are why the Spurs ownership just screwed the pooch." David Robinson is purportedly "indicted" in another post. Anyone who disagrees is a "Joe six-pack fan," presumably not an esteemed title.

Think of it another way. What if we actually had signed Grant Hill, as predicted? We were all assured that it would, without a doubt, have meant an inevitable second title in 2001. With what we know now, however, would it have? What if we signed Chris Webber? Who can say how it all would have turned out? Who can say that Tim would certainly have stayed then? Perhaps Webber and Duncan would have fought for the ball and the glory and grown to dislike each other. Then, perhaps, in 2003, when Webber had 3-4 years left on his contract and Duncan's contract was up, Duncan would see no choice but to be the one to leave. The beauty (and tragedy) of sports, and of life, is often in its unpredictability.

It is the unpredictable that is the beauty of sports — that is why we watch. Sports is the closest thing to a drama in which there is no guarantee that the good guys will win (but, boy, when they do, how much more wonderful and rewarding) . And remember that the two years between now and 2003, when Tim must decide, is an eternity in the NBA — enjoy the ride. Odds are, it won't be anything we could have predicted.

[Ya Vez]

Mr. Fingers fails to mention the following.

"the mavericks choke job in the 2006 finals"

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah. The Spurs know how to seal the deal when they reach the final round.

[Ya Vez]

just in general... Drob and spurs didn't choke in the finals the previous year as did the mavs only to lose in the first round this year to an 8th seed...

[Marcus Bryant]

DRob goes to church and was in the military. Dirk is white.

[timvp]

Since you mention it, here were my thoughts at the time. This was a long email I sent to one DG in the summer of '01 because I was too angry about the DRob thing to post.

Nicely done :tu

That was a low point in Spurs fan history when David Robinson was the enemy and a playoff choker like Chris Webber was the hero. It does actually seem unfair that those same Spurs fans who wanted David Robinson shipped out of town ended up getting to celebrate the 2003 Perfect Ending alongside the Spurs fans who saw through the BS.

I would have rather the Spurs gotten Karl Malone than Webber. Webber made no sense for so many reasons - insane contract, playoff choker, poor defender, poor attitude, poor work ethic, etc.

The Spurs got lucky (again) that Webber turned them down and Spurs fans got lucky that Robinson was able to end his career in a perfect manner.

/end2001rant

[Obstructed_View]

There were quite a few "Spurs fans" who thought Robinson was done (or "broken" as they liked to say at the time) and wanted him gone. I still remember laughing at those who said Webber was the answer.

As I said at the time, Webber would have ruined this franchise. He was a playoff choker to the utmost degree and on top of that, didn't make sense next to Duncan.

I do forgive some of the Spurs fans back then for bashing Robinson and backing Webber as that was the stance taken by the untouchable DG at the time. The sheep mentality was in full effect in 2001.

I forgot exactly who was and wasn't on the Webber bandwagon. Care to name names, Russ?

:stirpot:
The way I remember it, David had played through his contract which had paid him more than anyone in the league over that period, and he was going to take less money to "help the team" to sign someone. I guess when that someone turned out to play his position, he balked and went public that he didn't think it was fair that he was being lowballed. The fans who were angry at Robinson were the ones who were of the understanding that he was going to take a pay cut to help the team, and thought he reneged on his previous public stance.

I don't recall anyone saying that Robinson should be lowballed, or allowed to go. It just made having to pay him a slightly bitter pill.