Maybe Bowen really did kick Amare!!

[dreamcastrocks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4yz__akIU

[ShoogarBear]

Thoughts?

Thread will be locked soon.

[dreamcastrocks]

I saw that the other one was closed, but I didn't really read why.

I'd like to intelligently discuss what happened if you guys want to.

[Mr. Black]

Wow.. that looks pretty intentional. Instead of planting his foot, he swung it.

[Leetonidas]

Looks like he's just running to me. Doesn't even look like he touched Amare.

[timvp]

:lol If you want to breakdown clips of every play of the game, you'll see tons of players doing thing that you could turn around and construe as questionable. Just isolate a camera on Raja on every play. I don't see anything in that video that would warrant a foul or any sort of investigation. He just looks like he's striding forward.

--Kori on timvp's account

[dreamcastrocks]

Looks like he's just running to me. Doesn't even look like he touched Amare.

I thought that at first as, but look at his right leg again, he fully extended it. That is not a natural running or stopping leg position.

[Nashfan]

After seeing this video in slow motion it does appear that Bowen kicked Amare in the right leg. Not sure if it was intentional.

[Mr. Black]

:lol If you want to breakdown clips of every play of the game, you'll see tons of players doing thing that you could turn around and construe as questionable. Just isolate a camera on Raja on every play. I don't see anything in that video that would warrant a foul or any sort of investigation. He just looks like he's striding forward.

--Kori on timvp's account

Kori's got a point, I happen to watch raja away from the ball, and that boy plays dirty.

[timvp]

After seeing this video in slow motion it does appear that Bowen kicked Amare in the right leg. Not sure if it was intentional.

I don't even know if he touches him from that video.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Looks like he's just running to me. Doesn't even look like he touched Amare.

Look at his foot recoil after he hits Amare. It's absolutely clear that he made contact. Whether or not it's intentional I can't judge. As long as Amare is fine I don't think that any action from the league is required.

[dreamcastrocks]

:lol If you want to breakdown clips of every play of the game, you'll see tons of players doing thing that you could turn around and construe as questionable. Just isolate a camera on Raja on every play. I don't see anything in that video that would warrant a foul or any sort of investigation. He just looks like he's striding forward.

--Kori on timvp's account

I don't think that it is a suspendable offense, but it does make you at least have to take a step back and look at it. I could see a possible fine, or nothing happening at all.

[Trainwreck2100]

:lol If you want to breakdown clips of every play of the game, you'll see tons of players doing thing that you could turn around and construe as questionable. Just isolate a camera on Raja on every play. I don't see anything in that video that would warrant a foul or any sort of investigation. He just looks like he's striding forward.

--Kori on timvp's account

Don't you mean to say "no posting nba video"

[timvp]

I don't think that it is a suspendable offense, but it does make you at least have to take a step back and look at it. I could see a possible fine, or nothing happening at all.

A fine for what? You can't even tell if he touches him. That could just be Bowen striding forward and landing where Amare just took off.

[JackArse]

under normal circumstances that wouldn't appear to be anything big, but with bowen's history of understepping jumpshooters and such..

[dreamcastrocks]

:lol If you want to breakdown clips of every play of the game, you'll see tons of players doing thing that you could turn around and construe as questionable. Just isolate a camera on Raja on every play. I don't see anything in that video that would warrant a foul or any sort of investigation. He just looks like he's striding forward.

--Kori on timvp's account

The same has been said about Bowen. Bowen recently commented that they are two of a kind, so take it how you will.

I can't say that Bell is any better or worse than Bowen.

[Trainwreck2100]

under normal circumstances that wouldn't appear to be anything big, but with bowen's history of understepping jumpshooters and such..


So then he should understep Amare?

[timvp]

Don't you mean to say "no posting nba video"

Oh I thought it was a You Tube thing at first.

Anyway, yeah you need to take the video down if it's not on You Tube or published by the NBA (or the broadcast entity).

[Trainwreck2100]

I can't say that Bell is any better or worse than Bowen.


I will, Bell lacks Bowen's finesse. Bowen could easily get away with more stuff then Bell.

[Mr. Black]

Oh I thought it was a You Tube thing at first.

Anyway, yeah you need to take the video down if it's not on You Tube or published by the NBA (or the broadcast entity).


Oooh, shunted.

[timvp]

The same has been said about Bowen. Bowen recently commented that they are two of a kind, so take it how you will.

I can't say that Bell is any better or worse than Bowen.

I can. Bell tries to hurt players on a regular basis. Bowen doesn't.

--Kori

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Get over it! I remember last year when we played the Mavs. Every time Tony drove the lane Josh Howard would always stick his foot out and trip him. Shit happens like Kori said every veteran knows what they can and can't get away with. This goes for every TEAM.

[JackArse]

So then he should understep Amare?
he probably figured that's the closest he could get to hurting him since he couldn't get close enough to understep him

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

It almost looks like he intended to sweep the leg, but pulled back at the last instant.

He's definitely not part of Cobra Kai anymore...

[Trainwreck2100]

Oh I thought it was a You Tube thing at first.

Anyway, yeah you need to take the video down if it's not on You Tube or published by the NBA (or the broadcast entity).


Just FYI when youtube is embeded you usually have to press play to get it going.

[Trainwreck2100]

he probably figured that's the closest he could get to hurting him since he couldn't get close enough to understep him


He has to land when he lets go of the rim you know.

[dreamcastrocks]

Oh I thought it was a You Tube thing at first.

Anyway, yeah you need to take the video down if it's not on You Tube or published by the NBA (or the broadcast entity).

fair enough. It is an animated gif that someone on the net created. It isn't any different than Youtube coverage, as that is NBA footage as well.

I will remove it though.

[Nashfan]

I can. Bell tries to hurt players on a regular basis. Bowen doesn't.

--Kori


Right :rolleyes

[timvp]

Where is the video of Barbosa undercutting Parker? Perhaps wasn't 100% intentional but that is way more damning then whatever this video is trying to prove.

--timvp on timvp's account

[Despot]

I used to have a pet pigeon.

[dreamcastrocks]

Where is the video of Barbosa undercutting Parker? Perhaps wasn't 100% intentional but that is way more damning then whatever this video is trying to prove.

--timvp on timvp's account

I'm sure I could scour the net to find one, but would I be able to post it anyway?

[Trainwreck2100]

fair enough. It is an animated gif that someone on the net created. It isn't any different than Youtube coverage, as that is NBA footage as well.

I will remove it though.


NBA has agreed to let youtube host it's footage. The gif is a retransmission. The owner of this site could less her press credentials.

[timvp]

By the way, I don't know why everyone is concentrating on this. Isn't there a video during that play in this same game where Tim Duncan drastically kicks out in what looks like he's obviously try to kick someone.

If I was a Suns fan, I'd have a clip of that video and be bitching about it instead :lol Not this one, where you have to slow it down and use a microscope to perhaps deduce Bruce's intent.

--Kori

[Gaddabout]

*heavy sigh*

I had no idea Abraham Zapruder was a camera man for ABC. If the man's still alive, I would've figured he'd be back home in Dallas prepping for the funeral procession -er, parade.

[timvp]

I'm sure I could scour the net to find one, but would I be able to post it anyway?

YouTube it and then we can compare if Bowen stepping on the back of Amare's shoe or Barbosa running backwards bent over under Tony Parker is more noteworthy.

Thanks.

[Trainwreck2100]

I'm sure I could scour the net to find one, but would I be able to post it anyway?


host it on youtube

[timvp]

NBA has agreed to let youtube host it's footage. The gif is a retransmission. The owner of this site could less her press credentials.

It has nothing to do with press credentials. It has to do with the NBA sanctioned You Tube to distribute their content, so it's authorized. We don't post unauthorized video or links to unauthorized video here.

End of story.

[Trainwreck2100]

It has nothing to do with press credentials. It has to do with the NBA sanctioned You Tube to distribute their content, so it's authorized. We don't post unauthorized video or links to unauthorized video here.

End of story.


I was trying to make the guy feel bad

[dreamcastrocks]

YouTube it and then we can compare if Bowen stepping on the back of Amare's shoe or Barbosa running backwards bent over under Tony Parker is more noteworthy.

Thanks.

I don't think that we can keep the level of video quality if we youtube it.

[ShoogarBear]

I used to have a pet pigeon.What happened to it?

Did Bruce Bowen eat it?

[Trainwreck2100]

I don't think that we can keep the level of video quality if we youtube it.


that's okay, cause we dont need to pause it to see Barbpsa undercut Parker, unlike the Bowen "kick" there was a foul call, so I'm sure it would be easy to see.

[timvp]

Luckily Parker weighs like 125 pounds or else that could have been a season ending injury. Number one rule when someone is in the air is don't bend over and undercut them.

It's debatable whether Amare even felt whatever Bowen supposedly did. And if Bowen was really trying to hurt Amare, shouldn't the play in question include his microfractured knee? Or an elbow to Nash's nose?

[steveskg]

Here is a youtube clip of the kick. Super slo-mo + zoomed in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4yz__akIU&NR=1

Judge for yourself.

[leemajors]

It almost looks like he intended to sweep the leg, but pulled back at the last instant.

He's definitely not part of Cobra Kai anymore...

first he suffers, then he suffers some more. I WANT HIM TO EXPERIENCE PAIN.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I missed the play live. Did Amare say anything to Bowen?

[timvp]

Here is a youtube clip of the kick. Super slo-mo + zoomed in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4yz__akIU&NR=1

Judge for yourself.

Okay, do you have the Barbosa undercut so we can compare?

[timvp]

I missed the play live. Did Amare say anything to Bowen?
No. I am pretty sure Bowen didn't even touch him.

--Kori

[Despot]

What happened to it?

Did Bruce Bowen eat it?

Had to put it to sleep, became too vicious. Vet said something about the medulla oblongata.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

No. I am pretty sure Bowen didn't even touch him.

--Kori


So that means that this is all stupid, nit picky bullshit? It's one thing if Amare was pissed and had words, but another thing entirely if he acted like nothing happened. And by another thing entirely I mean stupid, nit picky bullshit...

[Trainwreck2100]

Had to put it to sleep, became too vicious. Vet said something about the medulla oblongata.


Bruce Bowen may have done something to said medulla oblongata, was your bird anywhere near Bruce Bowen at the time it got sick?

[Kermit]

here's the undercut from barbosa. looks a lot worse than the bowen leg-sweep. i still don't know what suns fans are bitching about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNv2_YChq7o

[steveskg]

Edit: nm, dude above me found it.

But...
I'm glad we can compare both the actions of Bowen and Barbosa. But, I would also like a definitive opinion on Bowen's actions standing alone, irrespective of any other play.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

He jumped before TP left his feet. In fact, TP faded into Barbosa.

Meh, not much in either case.

[Despot]

Bruce Bowen may have done something to said medulla oblongata, was your bird anywhere near Bruce Bowen at the time it got sick?

Not sure, where was Bruce about 15 years ago? there was a shadowy figure that we caught on video a few days before, but the tape was inconclusive.

[Nashfan]

here's the undercut from barbosa. looks a lot worse than the bowen leg-sweep. i still don't know what suns fans are bitching about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNv2_YChq7o


If you knew anything about Barbosa you would know that he would never undercut anyone intentionally. He is one of the nicest players in the NBA.

[Kermit]

Edit: nm, dude above me found it.

But...
I'm glad we can compare both the actions of Bowen and Barbosa. But, I would also like a definitive opinion on Bowen's actions standing alone, irrespective of any other play.

:jack

[steveskg]

here's the undercut from barbosa. looks a lot worse than the bowen leg-sweep. i still don't know what suns fans are bitching about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNv2_YChq7o

Yes, it looks a lot worse. But what looks a lot worse? The conduct? or the result?

In Tony's case... the result was bad... but the conduct was innocent.

In Amare's case... the result was not bad... but the conduct was questionable.

[Kermit]

If you knew anything about Barbosa you would know that he would never undercut anyone intentionally. He is one of the nicest players in the NBA.

same thing can be said of bowen. let it go.

[Nashfan]

same thing can be said of bowen. let it go.


Yeah, right. Bowen is a sweet guy?? :lol

[Kermit]

Yes, it looks a lot worse. But what looks a lot worse? The conduct? or the result?

In Tony's case... the result was bad... but the conduct was innocent.

In Amare's case... the result was not bad... but the conduct was questionable.

what happens when the suns win by thirty? fourty? accusations of rape? murder? there is no evidence that anything malicious happened other than some awkwardly shot game footage that proves nothing. get over it. dwelling on it makes you look like pussies.

[Kermit]

Yeah, right. Bowen is a sweet guy?? :lol
i've never heard anything to the contrary. no one complains about his demeanor, just his intensity on the court.

[JackArse]

the difference
barbosa foul (yes, it was a foul) was unintentional
bowen foul (yes, it was also a foul) was intentional

[greens]

LOL! Bruce doesn't even TOUCH Amare's foot...goodness. Wow...lol. The slow motion clearly shows that there was NO contact between Bowen's foot and Amare's foot. How can he kick him without contact?

[steveskg]

same thing can be said of bowen. let it go.

Yeah, but how often does Barbosa get into a situation where players are saying he's crossing a line? Maybe he gets a pass this time... and truthfully, Barbosa jumped before Parker.

But as for Bowen, some of his defensive tactics have been called into question and documented before. So when he does something again that is suspicious... it elicits more of a response. And he doesn't get the pass that a player like Barbosa might.

[Kermit]

the difference
barbosa foul (yes, it was a foul) was unintentional
bowen foul (yes, it was also a foul) was intentional

had bowen actually kicked amare i could see the outrage, but it's impossible to tell. to guess intent from either is impossible and only furthers spceculation of retardation.

[greens]

i've never heard anything to the contrary. no one complains about his demeanor, just his intensity on the court.


Exactly. Bruce is a good guy. He's a nice dude...the only people who have any problems with him are the ones he's defending...

Bruce would never hurt anyone intentionally...

[Kermit]

Yeah, but how often does Barbosa get into a situation where players are saying he's crossing a line? Maybe he gets a pass this time... and truthfully, Barbosa jumped before Parker.

But as for Bowen, some of his defensive tactics have been called into question and documented before. So when he does something again that is suspicious... it elicits more of a response. And he doesn't get the pass that a player like Barbosa might.

believe me, we've heard it all before. the people who call into question bruce's tactics are people he owns on a regular basis. he's never been suspended and when the league tried to "crack down" they got verbally bitch slapped by pop because bruce had done nothing wrong. you haven't heard a word from them since. the next time bruce is suspended for a defensive tactic will be his first.

[steveskg]

believe me, we've heard it all before. the people who call into question bruce's tactics are people he owns on a regular basis. he's never been suspended and when the league tried to "crack down" they got verbally bitch slapped by pop because bruce had done nothing wrong. you haven't heard a word from them since. the next time bruce is suspended for a defensive tactic will be his first.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time the league has missed or screwed something up.

And if the league wants to say it's ok by not sanctioning him when he engages in the conduct. That's the league's perogative. But from just a pure basketball standpoint... is that the sort of thing we want to see in the league? Maybe not. If it's intentional... definitely not.

If it were Raja bell instead of Bowen... and TimmyD instead of Amare... would you feel the same way? Or do you like that type of basketball? (assuming it was part of his defense to kick the player's foot for whatever reason).

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Gayest.
Thread.
Ever.

[Mr. Black]

I'm a big bowen fan, but he definitely kicked Amare. When I watched the game live, I wondered why Amare kind of came up gimpy after that dunk.

[dbreiden83080]

Yes, it looks a lot worse. But what looks a lot worse? The conduct? or the result?

In Tony's case... the result was bad... but the conduct was innocent.

In Amare's case... the result was not bad... but the conduct was questionable.

No it was not good god people in this day and age go crazy over everything. Do you have any idea how physical the NBA used to be and the shit players used to pull on a regular basis? Bowen 20 years ago would be just another player but because he plays tough hard D in an ERA where almost nobody does he is called dirty by the players and the media.

[PM5K]

We could argue about a lot of things, but that's not a natural stride..

[steveskg]

No it was not good god people in this day and age go crazy over everything. Do you have any idea how physical the NBA used to be and the shit players used to pull on a regular basis? Bowen 20 years ago would be just another player but because he plays tough hard D in an ERA where almost nobody does he is called dirty by the players and the media.

Well, the rules have changed. For you, I guess the question is... have the rules changed for the better or for the worse?

For me, I'm concerned with the rules as they are now, how they're enforced, and whether they can be improved.

But BB shouldn't be able to go around playing by a different set of rules. That's all we're saying. Because if BB can play by 80s, early 90s standards, and the Suns have to play by current standards... that is an obvious advantage to the Spurs... and an unfair one.

And what is the quality of the result, if there is not a level playing field?

[mikekim]

Bruce Bowen is one of the classiest guys in the NBA. What you (suns fans) say about Barbosa's character and demeanor can easily be said of Bruce's (as someone pointed out already).

It's just Bruce's job description is much different from Barbosa's and places him in situations where people can call him dirty...he gets paid to pay physical defense. Barbosa has no opportunity to be called dirty...he's there to make quick, slick moves to the hoop and drain threes.

I remember an article about Bruce's supposed dirtiness a while back in si.com (and Express-News?) after the Steve Francis incident, where an unnamed NBA GM pointed out a simple statistic to illustrate his point:

"Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays? When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

Bowen is put in the game to solely play tight defense. His rep of being "dirty" is totally unfounded and are exaggerations. Dirty implies a deliberate, malicious intent to harm. Bruce never has the intent to harm anyone...ever. And I will always stand by that. Bruce Bowen is one of the most professional, classiest, nicest guys in the NBA.

[dbreiden83080]

Well, the rules have changed. For you, I guess the question is... have the rules changed for the better or for the worse?

For me, I'm concerned with the rules as they are now, how they're enforced, and whether they can be improved.

But BB shouldn't be able to go around playing by a different set of rules. That's all we're saying. Because if BB can play by 80s, early 90s standards, and the Suns have to play by current standards... that is an obvious advantage to the Spurs... and an unfair one.

And what is the quality of the result, if there is not a level playing field?

The result is assholes like Ray Allen who can't score on Bruce bitching up a storm because it is easier in this day and age to cry dirty D than admit that he is actually shutting you down.

[Burn531]

To me that looked like a normal basketball move.

[steveskg]

"Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays? When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

I read that article. I remember thinking this:

Bruce Bowen is not the only player in the league that gets paid to play physical defense ala Bruce Bowen... but who else... but Bruce Bowen has been accused of those certain tactics that other players would consider crossing the line, and thus not engage in. Sure it's only occurred 4-5 times... but has anyone else been accused of that AT ALL?

So it's all well and good injuries don't occur that often... that doesn't change the fact that he's playing "outside the lines."

Who else kicks players in the face?

[cly2tw]

Well, the evidence isn't sufficient to prove his intention to specifically kick or step on Amare's heel. Yet, given his reputation as someone who is willing to risk injury to the shooters by undercutting or gliding in, it's quite clear he was just doing his routine in this regard here. Just step close to the guy who is about to lift or just lifted for shooting let them feel the danger of potentially injure themselves, this may distract them enough to lower their accuracy on average. That's it.

PS: actually, it is clear he stretched out his right leg with his center of gravity full on his left leg, and pulled it right back after contact with Amare's. It's very like another scene I saw in game 1 in an in-game rewind. While Nash was driving by him for a layup, he just made a quick pull on Nash's arm and raised his hands into the air right after that to pretend innocence. Nash scored and refs either didn't see it or just didn't want to call it. (Well, Raja does this thing often too, but not the ones with legs and feet.) But the purpose of gaining so slight advantage by these "dirty" moves is consistent. It's just that dirty moves with your legs and feet are more dangerous to others' health.

Given his reputation, this evidence might warrant a fine for "irresponsibly dangerous moves" from the league, without judgment on intention.

[mikekim]

I read that article. I remember thinking this:

Bruce Bowen is not the only player in the league that gets paid to play physical defense ala Bruce Bowen... but who else... but Bruce Bowen has been accused of those certain tactics that other players would consider crossing the line, and thus not engage in. Sure it's only occurred 4-5 times... but has anyone else been accused of that AT ALL?

So it's all well and good injuries don't occur that often... that doesn't change the fact that he's playing "outside the lines."

Who else kicks players in the face?

Not every player in the league has been the runner-up for defensive player of the year for 3 straight years (has any perimeter defender ever done that?) or been a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA defensive team selection for 7 years (1st team the last 4 years)...

So obviously, not every player in the league plays defense like Bowen (and no, I don't mean dirty...)

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That is what people are bitching about?

I can't fucking wait for Saturday to hurry up and get here.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

:lol Wow, just wow. I can't believe you guys are bitching and moaning over that.

[cly2tw]

Not every player in the league has been the runner-up for defensive player of the year for 3 straight years (has any perimeter defender ever done that?) or been a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA defensive team selection for 7 years (1st team the last 4 years)...

So obviously, not every player in the league plays defense like Bowen (and no, I don't mean dirty...)

Bowen is a great defensive player. But certain defensive tactics he practise to gain advantage could risk injuries to others. I'm sure he is trying to not hurt people at all, yet with his trying to stop right at the brink of causing injury, it's possible that accidents happen. Hey, Malone is a HOF, and nobody accuses him to intentionally injure DavidRob with his elbow.

[mikekim]

I've had this discussion with so many nba "fans" over the years that it's mind-numbing...and I simply don't want to even discuss it anymore...don't have the strength. The thick-headedness of some people, no matter how hard I try to explain, is unbelievable (and no, Steveskg, I'm not saying you're thick-headed, I haven't conversed with you long enough to figure that out...I'm just talking about the total people overall I've spoken with).

I even allow for that idea that Bruce is overly physical and may "cross the line" sometimes (which I, by the way, believe isn't the case....but i ALLOW for it, for the sake of discussion). But even then, you still can't say he's "dirty" because that implies a malicious intent. Bruce has no and never will have any "malicious intent." (note: if he does do anything out of anger with intent, as he did kicking Ray Allen while sort of scuffling, it will be when emotions get the best of him and he will apologize for it publicly, as he did...but that wasn't in the course of an actual play though, I might add)

Anyways, I probably won't post anymore in this thread. I'm just tired of trying to explain this...and I don't want to deal with the futility (unless of course, I reply out of courtesy to steveskg, depending on what he says of course).

[mikekim]

I'm sorry I'll post again..and then I'll stop...geez

What fuckin' "defensive tactics" are those? Are you talking about the foot on the landing thing?? Have you been watching the fuckin' NBA?? This has happened to other players in recent memory...in this same freakin 2007 NBA playoffs really. It happens quite often in fact (if not the actual landing but the danger of someone's foot being in the area of someone's landing occurs ALL the time...). Yet commentators, or fans, just let it slip right on by because it isn't Bruce Bowen...

And what is this I see about Karl Malone's elbow on DRob not being seen as being dirty?? Are you being sarcastic or what?

I'm done with this thread...I'm done. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm sure no one here is. It's just a cumulative frustration that's built up about this topic.

[ambchang]

Bowen is a great defensive player. But certain defensive tactics he practise to gain advantage could risk injuries to others. I'm sure he is trying to not hurt people at all, yet with his trying to stop right at the brink of causing injury, it's possible that accidents happen. Hey, Malone is a HOF, and nobody accuses him to intentionally injure DavidRob with his elbow.

Try following Malone's career a little closer:
http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/Malone.danger.html
http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/03/karl-malones-greatest-hits.html
It is well known that Malone intentionally injured Zeke as a retaliation for
Zeke burning Stockton all game. How many times have Bowen sent someone to a plastic surgeon?

The defensive tactics that you continue to cite, what specifically are those? Getting too close to a shooter on a jump shot? Getting in the face of an offensive player? Those are all legal moves, and if they aren't, would have been called.
You continue to say how dirty Bowen is, and the fact is that he had a total of 1 ejection, 28 technicals and 8 flagrants throughout his career. Compare that to Raja Bell, who is 6 ejections, 50 techs, and10 flagrants, and you tell me who is dirty.
It is also hilarious how people like these came up with excuses of how he got away:
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/2007/03/are_kobe_and_br.html

Bowen gets away with it because the media loves his rags to riches story and it's easy to write about the hard working role player who becomes All Defense.
I am not sure if they know how stupid they sound, this is the NBA, not equestrian, almost ALL of the players had a rags to riches story. So I guess Ron Artest's dad used to be the CEO of Sprint, or Allen Iverson never had to live in a place flooded with sewage on rainy days.
Besides, it was the media who continues to say how dirty Bowen is, or else who wrote those articles? Ray Allen and Vince Carter are journalists now? If the media did not propagate these false allegations, who did? It got so out of hand, there are blogs like this (same source as above).
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/2006/week46/index.html
Michael Wilbon and Bob Ryan are excellent journalists? Those guys does nothing but yell at each other for 30 minutes every day, is that what pass for journalism?
This is an absolute joke.

[rascal]

Bowen has a history of throwing his legs out and undercutting players with dirty moves. Its part of his defensive package.

[SAGambler]

After seeing this video in slow motion it does appear that Bowen kicked Amare in the right leg. Not sure if it was intentional.

Would appear that Bowen was trying to pull up to keep from fouling...

Now anyone that can look at that video and say Bowen "kicked" at him, is blinder than a bat.

In fact it doesn't even look like their feet made contact at all.

You guys are searching for something that isn't there.

[FromWayDowntown]

What I've always found interesting about Bowen is the fact that the league has taken formal disciplinary action against him exactly 2 times since he's been with the Spurs: (1) a relatively small fine for the Szczerbiak incident in 2002; and (2) a $10,000 fine for his kick to Ray Allen's back in 2005. That's it. For a guy alleged to be out to injure players -- and generally, star players, since Bowen tends to draw defensive assignments on the league's elite -- the league sure doesn't have much to say about what he does. Either the league doesn't care that Bowen is acting "recklessly" around its biggest draws or the league has looked and decided that the complaints about Bowen are mostly a bunch of whining and, in any event, not worthy of disciplinary action.

I'd be interested for someone to compare Bowen's disciplinary history with the league against Raja Bell's -- you can even use Bruce's entire tenure with the Spurs against Bell's tenure just with the Suns. I have the feeling that one might not come out so well for Raja in comparison.

But Bowen is undoubtedly the far dirtier player; Bell is just wrongly persecuted and misunderstood. If only he played for the Spurs, he'd get away with all of his foolishness. :rolleyes

[jmard5]

Video is still inconclusive. I can't believe we already have TWO threads discussing this!

[Kermit]

What I've always found interesting about Bowen is the fact that the league has taken formal disciplinary action against him exactly 2 times since he's been with the Spurs: (1) a relatively small fine for the Szczerbiak incident in 2002; and (2) a $10,000 fine for his kick to Ray Allen's back in 2005. That's it. For a guy alleged to be out to injure players -- and generally, star players, since Bowen tends to draw defensive assignments on the league's elite -- the league sure doesn't have much to say about what he does. Either the league doesn't care that Bowen is acting "recklessly" around its biggest draws or the league has looked and decided that the complaints about Bowen are mostly a bunch of whining and, in any event, not worthy of disciplinary action.

I'd be interested for someone to compare Bowen's disciplinary history with the league against Raja Bell's -- you can even use Bruce's entire tenure with the Spurs against Bell's tenure just with the Suns. I have the feeling that one might not come out so well for Raja in comparison.

But Bowen is undoubtedly the far dirtier player; Bell is just wrongly persecuted and misunderstood. If only he played for the Spurs, he'd get away with all of his foolishness. :rolleyes

everything i've been trying to say in this thread, but with much more eloquence. nicely done.

[GrandeDavid]

If ANYTHING Bowen was careful to withdraw his foot when Amare came down to avoid Amare landing on it and twisting his ankle.

[GrandeDavid]

I think that in the NBA lots of physical altercations occur continuously and the overwhelming majority go unnoticed. I think that you guys are looking too hard at Bowen. That's pretty weak, sorry. Physical contact is part of the game, and this was not an overtly dirty play. I've seen worse. But I cannot deny Bowen kicked him, but also in knowing Bowen must assume he wouldn't do it with the intention to harm. If he did actually make contact with his foot, well, the refs missed it so we move on. Amare obviously scored. As long as nobody gets hurt or the ref whistles it, what's the point in making the debate? Its not going to change the outcome of the play.

[GrandeDavid]

Where is the video of Barbosa undercutting Parker? Perhaps wasn't 100% intentional but that is way more damning then whatever this video is trying to prove.

--timvp on timvp's account


Exactly! So stop whining about nothing, Suns fans. Seriously, this is ridiculous. Raja Bell pulls out every dirty trick imaginable but he gets a pass because he's wearing a Suns uniform? Barbosa undercuts Parker and could have hurt him badly, yet Suns fans want to zoom in on a seemingly harmless contact by Bowen?

Not ONCE have you heard Spurs players cry about officiating or otherwise do ANYTHING, Bowen included, to warrant criticism from one single Phoenix Suns fan.

I think you guys are just reaching and hot-headed because of all the smack flying on the boards. Guys, its all in fun!

Do you make such hypocritical claims simply because you feel that your team is entitled to win its first championship? What the heck is this all about? Let's see the teams slug it out on the court and the best team will stand at the end. Meanwhile, let's put the film away and stop wasting time analyzing garbage.

[GrandeDavid]

If you knew anything about Barbosa you would know that he would never undercut anyone intentionally. He is one of the nicest players in the NBA.

I actually KNOW Leandro Barbosa rather informally, and I would have to agree. He's a very nice guy like virtually all Brazilian pro athletes.

But what you just said also applies to Bowen. Jack McCallum, who recently wrote that book "7 Seconds or Less" on the Suns was in a national radio interview on Tuesday and stated that, to somewhat paraphrase "Bruce Bowen is maybe the nicest, most hard working player in the NBA". Wow, that's mad props!

[GrandeDavid]

Bruce Bowen is one of the classiest guys in the NBA. What you (suns fans) say about Barbosa's character and demeanor can easily be said of Bruce's (as someone pointed out already).

It's just Bruce's job description is much different from Barbosa's and places him in situations where people can call him dirty...he gets paid to pay physical defense. Barbosa has no opportunity to be called dirty...he's there to make quick, slick moves to the hoop and drain threes.

I remember an article about Bruce's supposed dirtiness a while back in si.com (and Express-News?) after the Steve Francis incident, where an unnamed NBA GM pointed out a simple statistic to illustrate his point:

"Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays? When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

Bowen is put in the game to solely play tight defense. His rep of being "dirty" is totally unfounded and are exaggerations. Dirty implies a deliberate, malicious intent to harm. Bruce never has the intent to harm anyone...ever. And I will always stand by that. Bruce Bowen is one of the most professional, classiest, nicest guys in the NBA.

:clap

This should be emailed to every Suns fan on this board daily, several times daily.

[nkdlunch]

:lmao sun fans don't know what else to pick on. gimme a break.

It would be easier to prove Iraq has WMD than to prove that dumb theory.

[nkdlunch]

according to Sun fans, Bowen is expert at ninjitsu

[MadDog73]

Suns fans are the only ones I know who complain after beating the Spurs by 20 points...

[conversekid]

Yeah, but how often does Barbosa get into a situation where players are saying he's crossing a line? Maybe he gets a pass this time... and truthfully, Barbosa jumped before Parker.

But as for Bowen, some of his defensive tactics have been called into question and documented before. So when he does something again that is suspicious... it elicits more of a response. And he doesn't get the pass that a player like Barbosa might.

The people calling bowen into question are the pusses of the league - carter, allen. Funny how the princess of the league, Kobe Bryant, says Bruce is an excellent defender - the best he's ever gone against. The pusses are just mad that bowen gets in their grill and gives them fits. How can they get their averages and maintain their stats if bowen plays them hard? :sleep :sleep

[Soul_Patch]

I heard bruce bowen is solely responsible for global warming.



and um...he also kicks kittens.

[Duncanoypi]

Yes, it looks a lot worse. But what looks a lot worse? The conduct? or the result?

In Tony's case... the result was bad... but the conduct was innocent.

In Amare's case... the result was not bad... but the conduct was questionable.

and who are you to question one's conduct? :pctoss

Whats these crying all about suns fans?.... :wakeup

[zrinkill]

Sun Fans are really pathetic ..... its obvious that Bowen did not kick anyone .... keep making crap up losers.

[DarrinS]

dump

[kps0001]

SOME Sun Fans are really pathetic ..... its obvious that Bowen did not kick anyone .... keep making crap up losers.

I fixed that a little. I am one that is on board with Spurs fans on this one. I don't think it was intentional, don't even think he hit Amare, Bowen and Barbosa are nice guys, Bowen is one of if not the best defender in the league and with that comes the "dirty player" label and same can be said for Raja minus the best defender part but still a top defender. SOME Suns fans are bitching way too much about calls but yet still will have no problem calling Spurs the biggest whiners!!!

[YoMamaIsCallin]

So I looked at the video. It appears to me that Bowen is making a move to plant and jump off his left foot, to contest the shot, realizes that he's too late, and tries to check up with his right foot. Amare actually turns and plants his right foot right in front of where Bowen is checking up. Bowen tries to pull back but it's too late.

That's how I see it.

It could not possibly have been a deliberate kick. There wasn't time to see the opportunity, decide to kick, and kick. Not anything close to enough time.

[judaspriestess]

Where is the video of Barbosa undercutting Parker? Perhaps wasn't 100% intentional but that is way more damning then whatever this video is trying to prove.

--timvp on timvp's account
Thank you We agree 100%. that dive baboso took was highly suspect.

I'm sure it was an accident, a heat of the moment type of play. suns fans are simply jockeying themselves for the "we lost the series because the Spurs are dirty" excuse. Whats pathetic is suns have NOT lost the series.

[IceColdBrewski]

Quit whining already Suns fans. Raja Bell is just as dirty as Bowen is. Bowen just gets called out for it more because he's on a team that wins Championships.

Give it a rest already.

[planaria]

Looks like Barbosa thought Parker would drible one more time and tried to reach the ball. It was an unlucky play.

You just need to notice how lost Barbosa looked when he saw Parker falling on his back. Actually that play was so risky for him as for Parker.

[mardigan]

This shit again? I thought we had already covered this.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Come on people bruce ran up behind Amare. He then hoped Amare was going to jump. He then carefully measured his steps and anticipated amare's jump to then skillfully kicked amare right on the achilles tendon while appearing to pull up..all in the matter of 3 or 4 seconds.. Bruce is a dirty player.. :rolleyes

[spurastic]

Now I know why there was a rumour that they were passing out Pacifiers at the last game. It was not to mock a great team; it was for the fans to use so they wouldn't whine so much. I can't believe the shit I'm reading from Phoenix fans. "OH my god--those dirty Spurs _______(fill in the blank--touch, held, kick, looked at, etc) my big, big hero." There's contact on both ends-- you fools!

[tsb2000]

You should hear the people in my office complaining about this video. It's linked to a local radio station's website here and it seems it's everyone's duty to send me an email with the link. I just tell them all Amare needs some huevos and needs to play the game, just to piss them off! :lol

[Man In Black]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/specials/playoffs/2007/05/09/poll0514/index.html

[mardigan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/specials/playoffs/2007/05/09/poll0514/index.html
Camby didnt get any votes, haha

[JackArse]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0510statdirty-CR.html

there ya go, bowen definitely made contact with amare

[nkdlunch]

LMAO at the crybaby sun fans

[FromWayDowntown]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0510statdirty-CR.html

there ya go, bowen definitely made contact with amare

It's curious to me how the Spurs have been labeled the crybabies in this series. Game 1 featured D'Antoni just about shitting himself in his hysterics over the officiating and then making public comments about the officiating in the post-game media session. Today we get Amare coming out publicly about Bowen and Ginobili. And while the games have been played, Suns players have been shouting at officials and making faces after calls -- including Stoudemire telling Dan Crawford to open his eyes.

Even if the Spurs were only guilty of just doing what the Suns players have done on the court, I'm at a loss to understand how the Spurs are the bigger crybabies here.

[cheguevara]

Spurs, like usual, will do the talking on the court in game 3.

Amare, the man with the IQ of a boy, will hopefully learn someday.

[lefty]

Stoudemire calls Spurs 'dirty'
Doug Haller
The Arizona Republic
May. 10, 2007 01:37 PM

Amaré Stoudemire called the San Antonio Spurs a dirty team Thursday and directed most of his words toward defensive specialist Bruce Bowen and sixth man Manu Ginobili.

Hours after the Suns center learned he had made First Team All-NBA, Stoudemire unleashed frustration at what he said were attempts by Bowen and Ginobili to hurt him during Phoenix’s Game 2 win in the Western Conference semifinals.

Bowen's play irritated him most. In the third quarter, Stoudemire felt a kick to his left Achilles tendon as he leaped inside. He came down awkwardly and said his foot was sore the rest of the night. He got medical treatment before practice.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0510statdirty-CR.html

[Amarelooms]

Love these Spurs homers....Bruce is a dirty player just admit it. The Barbosa incident was not Barbosa's fault...if anything Parker fell back on him. Bruce better becareful cause he doesn't want to piss Amare off....remember Amare LOOMS :elephant

[zrinkill]

Love these Spurs homers....Bruce is a dirty player just admit it. The Barbosa incident was not Barbosa's fault...if anything Parker fell back on him. Bruce better becareful cause he doesn't want to piss Amare off....remember Amare LOOMS :elephant


I see the jealous and bitter Mav fans are still trying to get some attention ....

You guys are pathetic.

[Slinkyman]

Love these Spurs homers....Bruce is a dirty player just admit it. The Barbosa incident was not Barbosa's fault...if anything Parker fell back on him. Bruce better becareful cause he doesn't want to piss Amare off....remember Amare LOOMS :elephant

fucking golden state :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

are you serious? :lol :lol :lol :lol

[raedd]

LMAO at the crybaby sun fans


LMAO at ur ugly face.

[kris]

I think Bowen is dirty. He makes it so where his feet end up in some very awkward positions and this theme doesn't keep coming up because he plays good hardnosed defense. It comes up because he's putting other players at great risk to injure other players and I don't blame them at all for getting mad.

Just put yourself in Vince Carter or Amare's shoes when you detect something in the game and then see it on tape afterwards.

He plays good defense anyways, but when he starts trying to have you land on his leg or foot, that's dirty and he deserves to get punched for it.

[Amarelooms]

fucking golden state :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

are you serious? :lol :lol :lol :lol

Warriors did what the Spurs can't or couldn't do :elephant

[samikeyp]

Amare may loom but Dirk sure as hell doesn't.

[ducks]

suns are doing everything they can because they think they can get past sa they can get the title
suns 0 rings

[sunsbum]

LMAO at the crybaby sun fans


LMAO at you not adding anything to any conversation/thread except to stroke TDs pee pee and announce how the spurs are going to sweep the suns... oops.

:elephant

[sunsbum]

I think Bowen is dirty. He makes it so where his feet end up in some very awkward positions and this theme doesn't keep coming up because he plays good hardnosed defense. It comes up because he's putting other players at great risk to injure other players and I don't blame them at all for getting mad.

Just put yourself in Vince Carter or Amare's shoes when you detect something in the game and then see it on tape afterwards.

He plays good defense anyways, but when he starts trying to have you land on his leg or foot, that's dirty and he deserves to get punched for it.


AMEN...you know when raja punched andrea bargarni in the nards earlier this year us suns fans were the first one to admit raja deserves a suspension.. the fact that 90% of the spurs fans here are being so delusional when there is a clip in slo mo, ZOOMED with a FUCKING FOOT SWEEP is beyond ridiculous. and with bowens rep, among MANY other clips on youtube... WAKE UP. theres no place in basketball for that crap. period.

[mardigan]

LMAO at you not adding anything to any conversation/thread except to stroke TDs pee pee and announce how the spurs are going to sweep the suns... oops.

:elephant
:lol And what insight you bring. The Suns might have the worst fans ever if some of you guys are really Suns fans

[rascal]

I think Bowen is dirty. He makes it so where his feet end up in some very awkward positions and this theme doesn't keep coming up because he plays good hardnosed defense. It comes up because he's putting other players at great risk to injure other players and I don't blame them at all for getting mad.

Just put yourself in Vince Carter or Amare's shoes when you detect something in the game and then see it on tape afterwards.

He plays good defense anyways, but when he starts trying to have you land on his leg or foot, that's dirty and he deserves to get punched for it.

Finally an objective take from a spurs fan.

[Capt Bringdown]

It does look like a dirty kick. I'm disappointed, this shows bad sportsmanship and also incredibly bad judgement on Bruce's part. If the league takes action with a suspension, we'll be without a key player and that kick could end up turning the entire series around.

Credit Amare for going public with this, a shrewed move. This is the best chance for a Suns title EVER, and they're really going for it.
Spurs have to match their intensity and hunger to win.

[lefty]

It does look like a dirty kick. I'm disappointed, this shows bad sportsmanship and also incredibly bad judgement on Bruce's part. If the league takes action with a suspension, we'll be without a key player and that kick could end up turning the entire series around.

Credit Amare for going public with this, a shrewed move. This is the best chance for a Suns title EVER, and they're really going for it.
Spurs have to match their intensity and hunger to win.

Not a smart move ; if anything, it's extra motivation for the Spurs ; Suns aren't going anywhere

[timvp]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66817

The discussion has moved to that thread now.