The Counter Adjustment

[timvp]

Mike D'Antoni made the first major adjustment in this series by going big by starting Kurt Thomas. It forced the Spurs to change much of their Game 1 strategy.

Now Pop and the Spurs have to respond. Here's an idea I've been kicking around -- although I'm not totally in love with it.

When the Suns put Thomas and Stoudemire on the court at the same time, perhaps the Spurs can counter with:

Parker
Ginobili
Barry
Finley
Duncan

Yes, it's the dreaded small ball lineup, but this time it actually makes sense. What the goal of it would be is to force Stoudemire to guard a perimeter player and force Nash to guard an offensive threat. If Stoudemire is out on the perimeter defending Finley or Barry, not only do I think they'll get open shots, but it'll give Duncan more room to operate down low.

The common concerns with small ball are rebounding and post defense, but I don't see that as being a huge problem. Thomas isn't a post player, so you can stick a small player on him. Not only that, Finley has a history of guarding Stoudemire surprisingly well.

The Suns aren't a very good rebounding team so as long as the Spurs crash the boards, I think both teams should be rebounding at about the same clip.

There are a couple flaws in this counter adjustment. First of all, it assumes that Barry will play like a capable offensive threat. If he's not going to produce offensively, the Suns will be able to hide Nash or maybe even Stoudemire on him. If Barry fails, the Spurs could sub in Bowen who had a pretty good offensive Game 2, but that wouldn't have quite the desired effect since Nash can guard Bowen.

Another flaw is it could lead to more fouls on Duncan. That could be solved by putting Duncan on Thomas and hoping that Finley can reasonably guard Stoudemire.

Overall, this would be a high-risk, high-reward counter adjustment. I'm not sure if I endorse it, but if it's working right, it'd force D'Antoni to make a lineup adjustment and force Nash and Stoudemire to play defense.

Would anyone like to see this adjustment or do you prefer the Spurs keep doing what they're doing in hopes that Game 2 was a fluke?

Questions.

[shyne]

No something has to be done and thats a pretty good idea, it would be really good if Barry would actually show up.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

I would like to see this in medium doses. The players should be more familiar with small ball this time around than last year against Dallas on the fly. One thing I would like the Spurs to do is run and push the tempo. I feel a lot more comfortable with small ball this season ONLY because we've been tinkering with it all season long.

[cly2tw]

I agree with the rationale behind your suggestion. In practise though, it depends on whether Nash can defend Barry and Amare Finley. Also, if DA is gutsy enough he might bench Amare for a stretch and insert Diaw. And Diaw looks like he could abuse your suggested small lineup at will.

[timvp]

I agree with the rationale behind your suggestion. In practise though, it depends on whether Nash can defend Barry and Amare Finley. Also, if DA is gutsy enough he might bench Amare for a stretch and insert Diaw. And Diaw looks like he could abuse your suggested small lineup at will.

But if the Spurs force the Suns to pull Amare, that's reason enough to test out the lineup.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

LJ, why not replace barry with Horry?

he gives us that extra defensive presence

would this not work with what you said?

[timvp]

LJ, why not replace barry with Horry?

he gives us that extra defensive presence

would this not work with what you said?

In theory, Stoudemire would have a tougher time guarding Barry than Horry. If Barry is at his best, I don't think Stoudemire can guard him. On the other hand, Stoudemire can guard Horry.

But yeah, more of Horry would at least keep Stoudemire out of the paint defensively.

[J.T.]

I was going to suggest Horry instead of Barry as well.

[SpursDynasty]

Why should a championship caliber team make adjustments to play a couple of guys who get a few lucky shots to fall here and there, and play high school ball?

[stéphane]

I like your idea...
But it requires mainly one thing on the offensive end : Manu and Tony being aggressive.
I mean you have two good shooters to spread the floor, a low post presence (or THE guy for the highs s/r) but you gotta have these two guys to attack the rim to take advantage of this lineup... a thing we haven't seen so far in this series.
but if you have only one of the two doing it they'll put bell on him and that's it...
Concerning the other side of the court who could guard Amare/Thomas since we'll have only 1 big on the court? I read that you saidf finley could do the job on amare... well if he's one on one right now I seriously think he'd abuse fin...
But yeah i'd give the small ball a try... but not sure we wouldn't be ok if the big 3 shows up all in the same game... and on the court TOGETHER.

[Xylus]

From the Spurs' perspective, I could see why you like this idea. A few drawbacks:

-Thomas, Marion, and Stoudemire would outrebound that lineup, and I don't think the Suns have lost a game this year when they outrebounded their opponent.
-Even if Stoudemire is taken out of the game, Diaw is excellent against a smaller defender. Finley, Ginobili, or Barry cannot guard him.
-Who would guard Kurt Thomas?
-It would leave with you a bench of: Horry, Bowen, Oberto, Elson. Not much offense coming from those four.

I'm more worried about this starting lineup:

Duncan-Finley-Ginobili-Bowen-Parker

That would force Amare to guard Finley, thus limiting his effectiveness on the glass. You'd still have Barry and Horry coming off the bench; assuming that one of those two hits their 3's, you'd still have some offense off the bench. Plus, if you take Bowen out of the starting lineup, you'd put a weaker defender on both Marion and Nash.

[rayray2k8]

boy we are just counting them days down.. I know its because of the houston and jazz series, but it think we should have to wait this long for game 3. :pctoss

[SpursDynasty]

I'm calling it now: The Suns are a fluke team.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

boy we are just counting them days down.. I know its because of the houston and jazz series, but it think we should have to wait this long for game 3. :pctoss

who the hell that is a casual fan would watch a NBA game on a saturday night at 8 pm eastern!?!?!?


The game should've been on thursday and then game 4 on sunday

abc is ridiculous

[timvp]

From the Spurs' perspective, I could see why you like this idea. A few drawbacks:

-Thomas, Marion, and Stoudemire would outrebound that lineup, and I don't think the Suns have lost a game this year when they outrebounded their opponent.
-Even if Stoudemire is taken out of the game, Diaw is excellent against a smaller defender. Finley, Ginobili, or Barry cannot guard him.
-Who would guard Kurt Thomas?
-It would leave with you a bench of: Horry, Bowen, Oberto, Elson. Not much offense coming from those four.

I'm more worried about this starting lineup:

Duncan-Finley-Ginobili-Bowen-Parker

That would force Amare to guard Finley, thus limiting his effectiveness on the glass. You'd still have Barry and Horry coming off the bench; assuming that one of those two hits their 3's, you'd still have some offense off the bench. Plus, if you take Bowen out of the starting lineup, you'd put a weaker defender on both Marion and Nash.

I wasn't proposing a new starting lineup. Just a lineup to throw at the Suns to see how they'd react.

The Spurs' small ball lineup can rebound against non physical teams. And again, anything the Spurs do to force Diaw in and Stoudemire out is a plus.

[Xylus]

I wasn't proposing a new starting lineup. Just a lineup to throw at the Suns to see how they'd react.

The Spurs' small ball lineup can rebound against non physical teams. And again, anything the Spurs do to force Diaw in and Stoudemire out is a plus.
Ah, I gotcha. I imagine that if the Spurs' small-ball lineup turned out to be effective, D'Antoni would take Thomas out. Then, any combination of Amare, Marion, Jones, Diaw, Barbosa, Bell, and Nash would work. Taking Thomas out of the game would hurt the Suns more than it would help.

However, I just don't think the Spurs can be as effective as the Suns at playing small-ball.

[SpursDynasty]

Duncan-Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Finley is the needed started lineup.

You guys make basketball so difficult.

Oh no, Kurt Thomas might block Vinny Del Negro, so we have to go to our small ball defensive tackle lineup with Chuck Person coming off the bench in the 5th quarter, but then we have to make some defensive adjustments down the stretch. Fuck small ball!

[Xylus]

I hope Elson starts. Why does Pop put so much faith in the guy?

[rayray2k8]

Here's a question thats been tossed around in this forum.
Is it time to put Manu Ginobili back in the starting line-up??

I figured that since beside Barbosa, the suns really dont have much of a bench and before I go into a debate with one of these damn sun trolls, in the playoff, teams usually shorten their rotation so the suns wont be looking to rely on their back-ups anyway.

That being said, why not match the suns big guns with all the spurs big guns?

Personally, I think it's about time to put Ginobili back in the starting line-up.
Reason why is because he's been in a slump lately and I think starting him may get him going and I truely believe he will be the deciding factor in this series.

Good take L.J.
You've been right so far in the playoffs bro.

[timvp]

I hope Elson starts. Why does Pop put so much faith in the guy?

I've been trying to figure that out since September.

[mavsfan1000]

Going small against the suns is not a good idea. The only reason small ball is effective for teams is because of them having superior athletes. The spurs don't have that so they gotta play big. Stoudemire has no problem guarding the perimeter by the way unless it is a really good perimeter player. It also hurts the spurs depth as they get no boost from the bench.

[aaronstampler]

It's absolutely time to put Manu back in the starting line-up, but not at Finley's expense. I think Pop has to seriously trim Bowen's minutes in this series. The best way to wear down Nash is to make him guard somebody and putting Bowen on the court doesn't accomplish that. Bowen hasn't shown he can guard Nash at all and any guard on our team can shut down Marion as long as we get back in transition.

Put Manu and Finley on the floor and relentlessly attack Nash, whoever he's guarding. Literally go at him every fucking play. Barbosa too. I'm tired of trying to score with Parker against Marion, Manu against Bell and Duncan against Thomas. Those are their three best defenders. Let's attack their weak links. Let's make them help and double team and scramble all over the place. The Warriors and the Jazz were aggressively going to the paint today, and GS didn't even care about Kirilenko. We have to have that same mentality.

From a strategy standpoint, playing Fin and Manu together forces the Suns to play Marion and Bell together. But they still want to play Barbosa to play his 30+ minutes too. So Marion+Bell+Barbosa+Nash means no more big ball for the Suns. We should try to limit Marion playing SF for them as much as possible.

[mavsfan1000]

Nash would guard Finley. Finley is not that good at creating off the dribble. I don't think he is good enough to exploit that matchup. The only thing I agree with is starting Ginobili.

[Xylus]

Another drawback to the Spurs' small-ball lineup. The smaller you go, the more effective Nash, Barbosa, and Stoudemire all become. Nash can pretty much penetrate at will, and with Bowen on the bench, his job will only be made that much easier. No one on that lineup but Duncan can guard Amare, which puts Duncan in danger of foul trouble, and it forces a small forward to guard Thomas/Diaw.

The Suns are 8-0 this season with their current lineup, but according to 82games.com, the Suns are most effective with these two lineups:

Nash-Barbosa-Bell-Marion-Stoudemire
Nash-Bell-Diaw-Marion-Stoudemire

If the Spurs go small, I imagine D'Antoni will be happy to oblige. The Spurs need to focus on winning the rebounding war by a considerable margin, which they won't do if they trot out small lineups often.

[Nbadan]

I'm not crazy about the Idea of the Spurs going small against the Suns. One of the big keys to beating Phoenix is out-rebounding Phoenix and controlling the game pace, and that's tougher for the Spurs small line-up because they're not great rebounders.

[aaronstampler]

I'm not advocating playing small, LJ is. I think we have to stay big, just majorly cut down Bowen's on court time. Also, we have to play the shit out of the big three. There is no point in saving them for anything, this team we're playing now is the best one left.

[Hoy]

I think Stoudemire (same with Bell, Diaw and Marion) can guard Barry, Bowen and Finley.
Phoenix is more versatile than Spurs who are more of specialists. Harder for Pop to make effective adjustments offensively or defensively.

They can iso Spurs like Dallas does to create mismatches do and that's why our defense breakdown.

[whottt]

My fix

1. Start Manu

He started the last time we beat them, and he has had huge games against them as a starter.

I think Manu is forcing it, and then getting down on himself, and starting him might possibly cause him to relax a bit.

Plus Finley should be able to destroy the Suns bench...


2. Raja Bell - The less this fuckwad is on the court the better.

My strategy with him -

Get him in foul trouble
Knock his ass to the dirt every time he goes into the paint
Have Bruce guard him at his absolute rashiest. Parker can guard Nash.
Run picks for Manu with him as much as humanly possible.

Fuck Bell, he's smacking our guys around and knocking down shots, he gives the Suns a toughness they have lacked previously...

Why the hell does Pop cut guys like he and Barnes?

Anyway, he's playing well, but I think Bell is the type of player that can be provoked into doing something stupid...and the Spurs need to work on that aspect.

Level him, frustrate him.


Kick his fucking ass like the Lakers kicked Bruce's in 04...

This series is ours if we get him off the court.


I know you probably ask...why not level Nash?

Because Nash plays even better when he's pissed...

Bell begins pissed off, so pissing him off more can only work to our benefit...

Make no mistake about it, Raja Bell is the key to us winning this series. We need him off the court.

[timvp]

Another drawback to the Spurs' small-ball lineup. The smaller you go, the more effective Nash, Barbosa, and Stoudemire all become. Nash can pretty much penetrate at will, and with Bowen on the bench, his job will only be made that much easier.

I'm not sure Bowen has had much of a defensive effect on this series yet. And the difference between Elson/Oberto and small ball isn't that great in terms of interior defense against the drive.


No one on that lineup but Duncan can guard Amare, which puts Duncan in danger of foul trouble, and it forces a small forward to guard Thomas/Diaw.

As I said in the original post, Finley has had some success against Amare. Both with the Mavs and a few times with the Spurs.


The Suns are 8-0 this season with their current lineup, but according to 82games.com, the Suns are most effective with these two lineups:

Nash-Barbosa-Bell-Marion-Stoudemire
Nash-Bell-Diaw-Marion-Stoudemire

If the Spurs go small, I imagine D'Antoni will be happy to oblige. The Spurs need to focus on winning the rebounding war by a considerable margin, which they won't do if they trot out small lineups often.

It'd be nice to dominate on the boards, but the Spurs just aren't that good of a rebounding team even when they are "big". In fact, some numbers point to this being the Spurs worst rebounding team of all-time.

As I've stated, I'm not sold on small ball myself, but I think in spurts it could be effective and help the Spurs score -- which was their major problem in Game 2.

[timvp]

Make no mistake about it, Raja Bell is the key to us winning this series. We need him off the court.

I think guarding Bell with someone who isn't a point guard would be a good start. I'm not sure how you gameplan how to bait someone into a fight, but I guess all is fair in the playoffs.

[Solid D]

The Spurs playing small against PHX has worked well the past 3 years. However, in this series, any time Barry has been inserted into the game, D'Antoni has exploited Barry's poor defense by posting him up or iso'ing him...often with Diaw. Whether it is Diaw, Marion, Barbosa, or Stoudamire that Barry ends up defending...and it varies in switches and cross-matches in transition...Barry has been a liability defensively.

When Brent is a defensive eye-sore and then doesn't contribute offensively, often giving up long rebounds to jumpstart a fast break, it ends up being ugly.

[whottt]

Point I forgot to add...


Manu struggling is killing our bench...for the same reason we move him there when Finley and Barry suck we need to move Finley there because Manu sucks...


I mean Manu is cleaning glass and getting steals and passes and stuff...but he's not playing like Manu and our bench sucks when he's not.


As for Barry...you can fret over the fact that Barry isn't a scorer, but he can go scoreless and we still blow a team out by 20....he's a smart offesive player...well he used to be anyway...

If he's on....it'll be a blowout. Whether scoring/"jackup shots like there's no tomorrow" fetishists, appreciate his contributions, or not.

Horry too, plus Horry has the addition of boosting our half court D...

If the Suns are starting Thomas, IMO, Horry needs to be on the court more...he's our PF in our traditional lineup.

[timvp]

The Spurs playing small against PHX has worked well the past 3 years. However, in this series, any time Barry has been inserted into the game, D'Antoni has exploited Barry's poor defense by posting him up or iso'ing him...often with Diaw. Whether it is Diaw, Marion, Barbosa, or Stoudamire that Barry ends up defending...and it varies in switches and cross-matches in transition...Barry has been a liability defensively.

When Brent is a defensive eye-sore and then doesn't contribute offensively, often giving up long rebounds to jumpstart a fast break, it ends up being ugly.

Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone pointed to Phoenix as the series that Barry can contribute.

So far he's been the worst player on the team. But I think Barry is going to be needed in beating the Suns. The Spurs can beat them without Barry, but it'd be tougher.

It might be getting to the point that Barry should get more minutes (his own plus Vaughn's) to see if he can ever do anything ... or go the other direction and put him behind Beno in the rotation.

[whottt]

I'm not sure how you gameplan how to bait someone into a fight, but I guess all is fair in the playoffs.


http://www.usabasketball.com/headshotsmen/rivers_doc.jpg


Use the connection...




And it doesn't appear to be that hard to bait Bell into doing something stupid....he's already hitting Manu in the face...and he's not even that pissed off yet.


Anyway...Bruce has a knack for pissing guys off...

I'm not so sure his being on Nash is a matchup that benefits us...he does a much better job on Marion IMO. He did't do shit to stop Nash in the last game. I mean what'd we give up about 40 points and 20 assists? after 30 and 8 in the first?


Exactly how could our D be any worse on him? Use Bruce on someone he can be effective against...like Bell.

[timvp]

Point I forgot to add...


Manu struggling is killing our bench...for the same reason we move him there when Finley and Barry suck we need to move Finley there because Manu sucks...

Yeah, I'm starting to lean toward Manu starting as well. The Spurs have to try to something to get him kick started. They will not win the series if Manu averages < 10 points per game. No way.

Start Manu, run the first couple plays for him and just try to get him rolling. For whatever reason, he's regressed to the point that he's unrecognizable coming off the bench. Start him, have him to play backup point and maybe increase his defensive responsibilities just to try to get him going again.

[timvp]

Anyway...Bruce has a knack for pissing guys off...I'm not so sure his being on Nash is a matchup that benefits us...he does a much better job on Marion IMO.

Just from watching the game, I don't see anything Bruce is doing to Nash that anyone else can't do. Like I've said since the beginning of the series, I'd rather have Bowen on Marion to just eliminate Marion from the series.

Parker on Nash seems to be fine. Maybe even though Manu on him for a couple possessions to see if that snaps Manu back into his frenzied, attack-at-all-costs mode.

[whottt]

Seriously...keeping Bruce on Nash is a lot like keeping him on Dirk...

He's wasted because the guy he's going up against is an MVP player who is dominating us...and it's like, we're afraid to take Bruce off them because they'll dominate us or something...

Well Dirk was Wilt against us last year...
And Nash is fucking...whoever this year.

Dirk could not have put up better numbers against us last year if I had been guarding him...and I am serious about that...he was fucking Wilt Chamberlain...it doesn't get worse than that.

We give up 15 assists to Nash...it doesn't get worse than that.

[timvp]

Seriously...keeping Bruce on Nash is a lot like keeping him on Dirk...

He's wasted because the guy he's going up against is an MVP player who is dominating us...and it's like, we're afraid to take Bruce off them because they'll dominate us or something...

Well Dirk was Wilt against us last year...
And Nash is fucking...whoever this year.

Dirk could not have put up better numbers against us last year if I had been guarding him...and I am serious about that...he was fucking Wilt Chamberlain...it doesn't get worse than that.

We give up 15 assists to Nash...it doesn't get worse than that.

That's just a bad coaching move. Bowen is a very good defender against shooting guards and small forwards. To put him on point guards and power forwards is just stretching it.

Sometimes it works against slower points guards or small power forwards, but to ask him to guard Nowitzki and Nash doesn't make much sense. That'd be like D'Antoni putting Bell on Duncan or Parker ... it'd just be dumb and Bell would get abused in either matchup.

[Xylus]

My fix

1. Start Manu

He started the last time we beat them, and he has had huge games against them as a starter.

I think Manu is forcing it, and then getting down on himself, and starting him might possibly cause him to relax a bit.

Plus Finley should be able to destroy the Suns bench...


2. Raja Bell - The less this fuckwad is on the court the better.

My strategy with him -

Get him in foul trouble
Knock his ass to the dirt every time he goes into the paint
Have Bruce guard him at his absolute rashiest. Parker can guard Nash.
Run picks for Manu with him as much as humanly possible.

Fuck Bell, he's smacking our guys around and knocking down shots, he gives the Suns a toughness they have lacked previously...

Why the hell does Pop cut guys like he and Barnes?

Anyway, he's playing well, but I think Bell is the type of player that can be provoked into doing something stupid...and the Spurs need to work on that aspect.

Level him, frustrate him.


Kick his fucking ass like the Lakers kicked Bruce's in 04...

This series is ours if we get him off the court.


I know you probably ask...why not level Nash?

Because Nash plays even better when he's pissed...

Bell begins pissed off, so pissing him off more can only work to our benefit...

Make no mistake about it, Raja Bell is the key to us winning this series. We need him off the court.

I'm interested to see if this strategy would work. Bell is a fiery, aggressive player for all 39 minutes that he's in the game, so I'm not sure if attacking him is the best idea. Normally, you'd want to attack the softest part of the Suns' defense, not the strongest. And Bell has a Bowen-like reputation, so the refs allow him to get really physical with his opponent.

If you can get Bell in foul trouble, though, there's not really anyone (except...ugg...Barbosa) to guard Manu. Nothing would spark Manu like Bell on the bench.

Putting Bowen on Bell, and Parker on Nash...now that's a great idea. Bell was freakishly aggressive on offense the other night because Parker isn't strong or long enough to defend him. Take Bell out of the offense, force him into the same role he played during the Lakers series... I could see Pop making that kind of adjustment.

As for Marion, I don't think D'Antoni is looking for him to score in this series. Before Game 2, he specifically told Marion to focus entirely on stopping Tony Parker. Forget about scoring, just stop Tony Parker. Marion only ended up scoring 5 points on a small handful of FG attempts, and the Suns still won by 20.

[whottt]

That's just a bad coaching move. Bowen is a very good defender against shooting guards and small forwards. To put him on point guards and power forwards is just stretching it.

Sometimes it works against slower points guards or small power forwards, but to ask him to guard Nowitzki and Nash doesn't make much sense. That'd be like D'Antoni putting Bell on Duncan or Parker ... it'd just be dumb and Bell would get abused in either matchup.


Exactly...I mean if it comes to down to end of the game posessions, by all means put Bruce on them....but giving him heavy minutes against them kind of works to our disadvantage in the long run...the great players adjust to him over a series if they see him a lot. I mean I know why we did it against the Lakers...but this aint LA.



The thing is...Bruce has been the only reliable 3 shooter in this series....and he's being doubled off of...so he needs to be on the court as much as possible, and it'll probably help us more if he saves his legs by not guarding Nash and guarding someone less mobile instead.

[timvp]

In the first two games with Bowen on the bench and Nash on the court, Nash is 3-for-8 from the field, 4-for-4 from the line and has 8 assists in somewhere around 20 minutes. The assist numbers are pretty high, but the Spurs seem to be fine in making him miss when Bowen isn't on Nash.

I'd like Bowen to stay on Marion when Bowen is paired with Manu and on Bell when Bowen is paired with Finley. You put Bowen on Marion or Bell and Bowen could totally shut them down. You put Bowen on Nash and he's not going to do much more than Parker can do.

[J.T.]

I don't know if it well help him get his confidence back, but I'm going to have to hop on the Ginobili starts bandwagon too. Try it out next game and see if it works for Manu. Whatever the case, he needs to try and attack the rim more because his jumper isn't falling. All those missed shots are killing his game, and he's had some open looks. He's my favorite Spur after Duncan, and it sucks to see him like this.

[Gerryatrics]

Going small should work against the Suns as long as Oberto isn't the sole big out there. Also would help if they would try running some motion offense instead of trying their usual half-court sets with the small lineup.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great posts to all - excellent thread! Especially you whottt (where does the anger come from? But in this case I like it!) and timvp and Solid D and Xylus (what is that avatar?).


Duncan-Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Finley is the needed started lineup.

You guys make basketball so difficult.

Oh no, Kurt Thomas might block Vinny Del Negro, so we have to go to our small ball defensive tackle lineup with Chuck Person coming off the bench in the 5th quarter, but then we have to make some defensive adjustments down the stretch. Fuck small ball!

Um, that IS small ball! :wtf :lmao

However, I strangely agree with SD here that it was an aberration.

"Fluke" is a bad word because it gives no credit to the Suns who played a poor first half, but when they smelled blood in the second, hit their stride and played wonderfully.

We lost the game from the start because the intensity/effort and execution wasn't there, and that is not our team. They were happy with their split. But they will bounce back and play hard and focussed like they did in game 2 of the Nuggets series, and take a close win in the 90s, unless the Suns bring absolutely their best game like Detroit did in game 3 and 4 of 2005 (one of the most clinical 2-game displays of basketball excellence I've ever seen).

timvp, as for your idea, I think we try it if the trend continues in game 3 and it really is the matchup that's messing up our play. I doubt it is though. We stay the course for another half a game until we can tell what's going on (matchup or aberration), and then make a decision.

Oh, and Manu should start again. Unleash the BEAST I say (is it that he needs to grow his hair?). I entertained the thought of actually trading Manu this offseason for the FIRST TIME EVER the other day... but I really want to be WRONG!!! Prove me wrong Manu, show us the most exciting player in the NBA that goes for 48 on the Suns in 2005 and destroys everyone for the next 18 months... COME BACK TO US MANU!!!!!! :hungry: :downspin: :hungry:

[gilmor]

I find that Elson is surprisingly effective in Game 1 esp in the fourth quarter. I think in Game 2, Pop just played Oberto alot of minutes and Elson was totally fucked up. I don't know about the small line-up but I am not comfortable for it to eat up major minutes. Use it like surprises, like the series against Denver, when inserted at the right time, it is a surprisingly good lineup. I think Game 3 is still too early to use this lineup alot.. I will stick to the big line-up. But I am all for starting Manu in place of Bowen or Finley..

[Gros Membres!]

In theory, Stoudemire would have a tougher time guarding Barry than Horry.
This is where I see the theory having holes in it. Stoudemire could use and abuse Barry all day long. Barry does not have the foot speed or athleticism to challenge Stoudemire. If his shot was falling it would be another thing, but I think we're talking about Barry being able to challenge Stoudemire on both ends of the floor.

I think Horry has a better shot on savvy alone.

[Admidave50]

This is where I see the theory having holes in it. Stoudemire could use and abuse Barry all day long. Barry does not have the foot speed or athleticism to challenge Stoudemire. If his shot was falling it would be another thing, but I think we're talking about Barry being able to challenge Stoudemire on both ends of the floor.

I think Horry has a better shot on savvy alone.

There is no way that Barry would defend on Amare!

The idea is to make Amare defend on Barry and make him work.

On the other end, Finley who was succesful in the past defending Amare will be in charged of this duty.

[ManuTastic]

Oberto has been better--by a lot--than Cisco. He should start.
Manu should start. He needs to get going early, as people said. Finley can come off the bench for punch (he wants the ring bad enough to put up with it).
Vaughn sux. Use Barry and Manu as backup PG.

Where's the Red Rocket? Isn't he the type of energy player with shooting touch that this series calls for? Basically, what Barry should be doing?

[Walton Buys Off Me]

I like timvp's thinking but it won't happen for two reasons;

1. Pop is too set in his ways to not start Bowen, a staple in the Spurs' starting lineup for the last 5 years.
2. That lineup means we would basically have only serviceable bench player- Robert Horry

[jmard5]

Diaw would make mince meat of Finley, Ginobil or Barry.

[J.T.]

I like timvp's thinking but it won't happen for two reasons;

1. Pop is too set in his ways to not start Bowen, a staple in the Spurs' starting lineup for the last 5 years.
2. That lineup means we would basically have only serviceable bench player- Robert Horry

timvp said he did not intend that lineup to be the starting lineup, just one to throw at the Suns during the game.

[powerpower]

start manu put finley on the bench and see what happens

WHEN WILL WE KNOW THE STARTING LINE UP FOR GAME 3????????????????

[T Park]

Why the hell does Pop cut guys like he and Barnes?

well the spurs never cut barnes.

also, buford wanted Derrick Dial over Bell. Pop wanted Bell over Derrick Dial.

So just get it straight slappy ;)

[Solid D]

As I mentioned before, the Spurs have had success going small against PHX in the past. When the Spurs go small, they really need to move the ball around (and with it, the defenders). More ball reversals were needed Tuesday night. The screen/rolls with anyone besides Duncan were ineffective because PHX showed hard to the ball with great length and active hands. They didn't respect Horry, Oberto or Elson on the roll/pop. A couple of times, the Suns knocked the ball out of the ball-handler's hands off the screen (Ex. Ginobili, Horry) which led to a fast break opportunity.

The passes need to be quicker out of pressure and crisper. There needs to be better movement without the ball. When the Suns hold and push the Spurs out of their cuts, which will happen more and more each game, the Spurs need to help the officials by drawing the call. There was way too much dribbling to the middle and slow reaction passing to get out of trouble rather than quick recognition to hit the open man out of the collapsing D. The Suns aren't patient enough defensively to withstand lots of ball movement in a possession...so the formula should be fairly successful.

Small ball or no small ball...spreading the floor and watching Timmy go one-on-one with Kurt Thomas can only go so far. It breeds inactivity as well as more fast break ops.

[nkdlunch]

there is no need to make major adjustments. Only thing, Tony and Manu have to step up or else we're fucked.

oh I forgot, no super-small-ball lineups to start the 4th. please!

[GrandeDavid]

LJ, I can live with that. I'd just like to see more of Tim, Tony and Manu together on the floor and I like the idea of drawing Amare out more. I also would like to see some strong collective effort out of everyone.

[VaSpursFan]

i agree with sitting bowen this series to combat PHX's adjustment. first, bowen's defense hasn't really made much of a difference this series. and if he ain't contributing lock down d, his value on the court diminishes. with a team like PHX that is not a strong defensive team, we need players on the court that can fill the basket. our defensive scheme never changes so i think that works to our advantage. constant pressure on the suns d by having a floor full of scorers would tire their legs out on offense later in the game. it's worth a shot.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

LJ, I can live with that. I'd just like to see more of Tim, Tony and Manu together on the floor and I like the idea of drawing Amare out more. I also would like to see some strong collective effort out of everyone.

Damn straight! It's all about the effort. I don't know why people are so worried. This is not game 2 against Dallas from last year, this was a poor EFFORT. I'll only start worrying if we are still terrible by the end of the first half on Saturday. But it won't even take that long. You'll see a different team out there from the get go, but it will be the same players as game 2... playing SPURSBALL. ;)

[nkdlunch]

first, bowen's defense hasn't really made much of a difference this series.

I seriously hope you're joking. Bowen's D on Nash wash crucial for game 1 W.

:dizzy


it might not be obvious to many fans but Bowen prevents nash from dishing the ball. he let's him handle it, yes. he let's him dribble it everywhere, yes. But watch carefully and you will see Bowen's strategy, to prevent nash from passing.

[Testing]

Pop should be playing Matt Bonner instead of Barry. I don't know why he doesn't see it. Bonner is a slightly better defender than barry, but more importantly, he's an energy/hustle player which the Spurs needed in game 2 to get them into the game. Add to it, his rebounding and it makes better sense than Barry.

[Testing]

And why dont you use Melvin Ely to counter thomas?

[Solid D]

And why dont you use Melvin Ely to counter thomas?

Thomas isn't being counted on as a serious offensive threat. Other than giving Duncan a breather, why would Ely make a difference?

[leemajors]

Thomas isn't being counted on as a serious offensive threat. Other than giving Duncan a breather, why would Ely make a difference?

Solid D, why must you attack everything with your relentless logic!?

[mullet]

i noticed last game that duncan got caught on nash during the pick and roll switches. how do we minimize that this game? nash torched him, and then they started to do that every possession

[Solid D]

i noticed last game that duncan got caught on nash during the pick and roll switches. how do we minimize that this game? nash torched him, and then they started to do that every possession

Great question. Timmy will just have to defend him out to the arc, contest his shot and trust his help when Nash blows by him...I guess.

[FromWayDowntown]

As I mentioned before, the Spurs have had success going small against PHX in the past. When the Spurs go small, they really need to move the ball around (and with it, the defenders). More ball reversals were needed Tuesday night. The screen/rolls with anyone besides Duncan were ineffective because PHX showed hard to the ball with great length and active hands. They didn't respect Horry, Oberto or Elson on the roll/pop. A couple of times, the Suns knocked the ball out of the ball-handler's hands off the screen (Ex. Ginobili, Horry) which led to a fast break opportunity.

The passes need to be quicker out of pressure and crisper. There needs to be better movement without the ball. When the Suns hold and push the Spurs out of their cuts, which will happen more and more each game, the Spurs need to help the officials by drawing the call. There was way too much dribbling to the middle and slow reaction passing to get out of trouble rather than quick recognition to hit the open man out of the collapsing D. The Suns aren't patient enough defensively to withstand lots of ball movement in a possession...so the formula should be fairly successful.

Small ball or no small ball...spreading the floor and watching Timmy go one-on-one with Kurt Thomas can only go so far. It breeds inactivity as well as more fast break ops.

I agree with this and think it is probably the most crucial adjustment for the Spurs in Game 3. The Suns defense was good in Game 2, but I'd argue that the Spurs didn't really make it work too much. Pop seemed to take the approach that he could force D'Antoni out of the Thomas adjustment by pounding the rock into Timmy and having Timmy cut Thomas to shreds. Tim did a pretty good job of holding up his end of that notion, but two things happened: (1) the Spurs of 2007 became the Spurs of 2002, standing around watching Tim and not moving or sharing the basketball; and (2) the Suns never budged and didn't bring doubles to help Thomas, which I think Pop was hoping to force.

The Spurs have to share the basketball. The Suns defense can be very good if you give them stationary targets to defend and don't challenge their lack of a team defensive mindset; penetration, even if it doesn't lead to layups, should create ball movement opportunities that will force the Suns to do something more than just man-up. They'll have to switch and rotate, and I'm not sure it's in their team DNA at this point to do those things particularly well over 48 playoff minutes. If the Spurs attack the rim and move the ball, they should be able to create opportunities to find easy baskets, whether those be at the rim or beyond the arc.

[cherylsteele]

This may sound stupid, but I would start Bonner instead of Barry. He could pull his man out of the lane with the treat of a 3-pointer, and if his man doesn't follow him, Bonner can burn them. This could also open up the lane for Timmy, along with tony and Manu to frive the lane and create havoc. Plus on top of that he would give us something we lacked in game 2....hustle.

[Testing]

Thomas isn't being counted on as a serious offensive threat. Other than giving Duncan a breather, why would Ely make a difference?


He provides better offense than Elson/Oberto....forcing amare to guard someone on the other end....give him a phyical defender. Elson/oberto are neither...

[mullet]

Great question. Timmy will just have to defend him out to the arc, contest his shot and trust his help when Nash blows by him...I guess.

I know the spurs philosophy is to switch defenders, but when they are using timmy's man to pick for nash, whoever's on nash (hopefully parker on sat) should make it a point to go over the top of EVERY pick. that would give nash an open lane to pass to the cutter, but it would save tim a foul... i'd hope.

[FromWayDowntown]

I know the spurs philosophy is to switch defenders, but when they are using timmy's man to pick for nash, whoever's on nash (hopefully parker on sat) should make it a point to go over the top of EVERY pick. that would give nash an open lane to pass to the cutter, but it would save tim a foul... i'd hope.

I think Pop would, if he had his druthers, play Parker over the top of the screen on all pick and rolls (unless dealing with a poor shooting PG) and avoid switches as much as possible. In fact, when Pop had Avery and Terry Porter, the Spurs tried to go over every screen. I still recall that in 2001, Flip Saunders was using two screeners on pick and rolls early in the first round series, just to deter the Spurs from going over the top and denying Brandon anything when he came off the screen. Of course, when AJ couldn't get over the top, the Spurs had a guy in David Robinson who was probably the best big man in the history of the game at playing the ball on a switch and forcing it out of the point guard's hands.

Unfortunately, Parker has proven over the last 5 years that he isn't physically strong enough to fight over the screen. Because Parker can't do that consistently, Pop's approach has changed, particularly in the playoffs, to a view that favors switching almost everything. I think Pop has to do that for defensive continuity -- while I suspect that Jacque Vaughn is capable of fighting over screens, the defense would have too many variables in its structure. It's a pragmatic move by Pop and the Spurs have generally found ways to compensate for the switching problem. I fear, though, that the Suns are one team that might be able to find the weakness in the defense and really exploit it with the many pick and roll combinations that they can employ during the course of a game.

[baseline bum]

Pop has two counters in the playoffs.

1) Put Manu on the bench (done already in the regular season)
2) Start Horry

[baseline bum]

I think Pop would, if he had his druthers, play Parker over the top of the screen on all pick and rolls (unless dealing with a poor shooting PG) and avoid switches as much as possible. In fact, when Pop had Avery and Terry Porter, the Spurs tried to go over every screen. I still recall that in 2001, Flip Saunders was using two screeners on pick and rolls early in the first round series, just to deter the Spurs from going over the top and denying Brandon anything when he came off the screen. Of course, when AJ couldn't get over the top, the Spurs had a guy in David Robinson who was probably the best big man in the history of the game at playing the ball on a switch and forcing it out of the point guard's hands.

Unfortunately, Parker has proven over the last 5 years that he isn't physically strong enough to fight over the screen. Because Parker can't do that consistently, Pop's approach has changed, particularly in the playoffs, to a view that favors switching almost everything. I think Pop has to do that for defensive continuity -- while I suspect that Jacque Vaughn is capable of fighting over screens, the defense would have too many variables in its structure. It's a pragmatic move by Pop and the Spurs have generally found ways to compensate for the switching problem. I fear, though, that the Suns are one team that might be able to find the weakness in the defense and really exploit it with the many pick and roll combinations that they can employ during the course of a game.

:wtf

Pop used to switch the Nash/Nowitzki pick and roll all the time, whether it was AJ or Parker playing the point. I remember one playoff game in 2001 Nowitzki dropped like 41 on the Spurs because they switched every single pick and roll (The Spurs still won pretty comfortably).

[Solid D]

I know the spurs philosophy is to switch defenders, but when they are using timmy's man to pick for nash, whoever's on nash (hopefully parker on sat) should make it a point to go over the top of EVERY pick. that would give nash an open lane to pass to the cutter, but it would save tim a foul... i'd hope.

It's not that simple with Nash. Sometimes Timmy gets stuck with Nash when Steve dribbles and weaves through the defense, baseline included and then comes back out the other side - Timmy being the closest defender. It's not a simple matter of going over or under a screen. It's sometimes a matter of Nash's primary defender getting hung up in all the trees.

That's why Timmy has to defend out on the floor sometimes and trust his help...that's the Spurs' system. 5 men, team D.

Otherwise, the Spurs would have to run something like a matchup zone that they have employed a few times.

[FromWayDowntown]

:wtf

Pop used to switch the Nash/Nowitzki pick and roll all the time, whether it was AJ or Parker playing the point. I remember one playoff game in 2001 Nowitzki dropped like 41 on the Spurs because they switched every single pick and roll (The Spurs still won pretty comfortably).

You're thinking of Game 5 of that series. Dirk was 14-24 from the floor and 14-18 from the line.

I'm not saying that Pop ALWAYS switched pick and rolls pre-Parker, just that he preferred to do that and often could because AJ could get over the top.

[Trainwreck2100]

Here's an adjustment, don't shoot like dog shit.

[mullet]

It's not that simple with Nash. Sometimes Timmy gets stuck with Nash when Steve dribbles and weaves through the defense, baseline included and then comes back out the other side - Timmy being the closest defender. It's not a simple matter of going over or under a screen. It's sometimes a matter of Nash's primary defender getting hung up in all the trees.

That's why Timmy has to defend out on the floor sometimes and trust his help...that's the Spurs' system. 5 men, team D.

Otherwise, the Spurs would have to run something like a matchup zone that they have employed a few times.

:madrun yeah, you're right. its not that simple. nash likes to run along the baseline and draw a big man with him and then use him like a beat up old hag

tim just needs to stay out of foul trouble. id rather have him give up an open lay up to nash than to defend him hard, draw a foul, and then give up 10 power dunks to stoudemire because he has to play timid

[DarrinS]

I like the idea of making Amare and Nash play defense. I'm sick of seeing "superstars" get a free pass on the defensive end.

[DarrinS]

The Spurs have to share the basketball. The Suns defense can be very good if you give them stationary targets to defend and don't challenge their lack of a team defensive mindset; penetration, even if it doesn't lead to layups, should create ball movement opportunities that will force the Suns to do something more than just man-up. They'll have to switch and rotate, and I'm not sure it's in their team DNA at this point to do those things particularly well over 48 playoff minutes. If the Spurs attack the rim and move the ball, they should be able to create opportunities to find easy baskets, whether those be at the rim or beyond the arc.


:clap

[LEONARD]

Barry?? I thought the Amber Alert I heard a couple hrs ago was for him?? :wtf

[Solid D]

Barry just needs some home cookin'....

and double-team help when posted up. :smokin

[spurster]

I don't think small ball is the answers except in short bursts.

What I would like to see:

On defense, we need to slow down Nash.

We have been showing the same look on Nash for 2 games. The bigs need to show on the pick and roll more often.

Bowen needs to give Nash different looks, too. Mostly, he backs off a bit, and Nash drives too easily around him because Nash knows what to expect. Bowen needs to get in his face more often and make Nash guess what he is going to do.

I think Manu on Nash might be something to try. I'd like to see if Manu can deflect or steal some passes.

Also, the Spurs need to try a zone more often. Ideally, I'd like to see a box-and-one a few times, but I don't recall the Spurs ever doing that.

On offense:

I'd like to see TD get the ball a little farther out so he can face up on Thomas and then shoot a bank shot or drive to the basket. It's clear from Game 2 that backing Thomas down is not so easy and the refs are calling few fouls in that situation.

I'd like to see Bowen post up on Nash.

I'd like to see Manu and Finley post up on Bell.

[Solid D]

Yeah, a Box-and-1 against the best 3-pt shooting team in the NBA would last about 1 trip.

[coachmac87]

hell why not try the small line up so we can just get thomas out of the game.....dantoni will get caught up in just goin small and then he never really puts thomas back in...spurs go back to old style of play and while phx just plays fast...before u kno it they cant put thomas in the game cause they need points to catch up with our game 3 halftime lead

[MavericksDynasty]

It's too bad you don't have a guy like Brad "White Lightning" Davis to tear shit up out there. He could help you against Phoenix:

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/img/05-06/0530davis.jpg

Davis melted the Ice Man in his day.

Davis > Gervin

http://perso.orange.fr/nba-history/images/photos/Gervin.jpg

[rayray2k8]

Riiiiight.

[leemajors]

Here's why Gregg Popovich is the best coach in the league: Phoenix makes their big adjustment in Game 2 (playing Kurt Thomas so they can cover Duncan one-on-one), and it's clear from the beginning that it's just not San Antonio's night -- they're not getting any calls, they're missing free throws and threes, it's just not happening. So he lets the game unfold without a big counter move and Phoenix pulls away in the fourth quarter, which probably would have happened regardless of whatever Pop did. Now we're headed to Game 3 and Phoenix still has no idea how Pop will counter than Duncan/Thomas thing. Watch what happens in Game 3: The Spurs will counter (my prediction, they go small with Duncan and four perimeter guys, force Amare to guard Finley, Ginobili or Barry 20 feet from the basket, then pound the ball inside to Duncan) and Phoenix will take an entire game to adjust. If they had done this in Game 2, it wouldn't have mattered because Phoenix was winning the game, anyway. I swear, this will all make sense when you're watching Game 3.

Sports Guy's take. we'll see if it holds water. maybe he reads timvp's posts?

[timvp]

Sports Guy's take. we'll see if it holds water. maybe he reads timvp's posts?

WTF? :pctoss

[FromWayDowntown]

timvp = The Sports Guy??

I'm not sure I've ever seen the two of them in the same room at the same time. (though I'm not sure that I've ever been in a room with either of them).

Maybe The Sports Guy is really ponky or something like that.

[Warlord23]

Several excellent points in this thread. My 2 cents ...

1. Don't go small, at least not all the time. The problem was that with Kurt Thomas in the line-up, the Suns were at one point in the game outrebounding us (although we evened it at the end). If the Suns outrebound us, it's over. Playing 4-down, Tim going 1-on-1 vs Thomas, taking difficult bank shots from 12 feet, everybody else standing still = us getting hurt in rebounding. We need more screen and roll, more dribble penetration from Manu and Tony. Tim can be freed up to attack the boards.

2. Start Manu over Finley. If we want less 4-down and more guard penetration, Manu needs to be on early.

3. Defensively, don't put Bowen on Nash. Put Bowen on Marion and neutralize him. Give Tony a shot vs Nash. I'm willing to bet that the increase in Nash's effectiveness will be less than the decrease in Marion's effectiveness.

4. Despite all that, if Tony can't get his jumper going, and Manu can't start making some shots, it's going to end in a Spurs loss. We need to get more from our starting guards, and that will force them to leave our role-players open.

[leemajors]

timvp = The Sports Guy's "Ghost Writer"??

[td4mvp3]

Several excellent points in this thread. My 2 cents ...

1. Don't go small, at least not all the time. The problem was that with Kurt Thomas in the line-up, the Suns were at one point in the game outrebounding us (although we evened it at the end). If the Suns outrebound us, it's over. Playing 4-down, Tim going 1-on-1 vs Thomas, taking difficult bank shots from 12 feet, everybody else standing still = us getting hurt in rebounding. We need more screen and roll, more dribble penetration from Manu and Tony. Tim can be freed up to attack the boards.

2. Start Manu over Finley. If we want less 4-down and more guard penetration, Manu needs to be on early.

3. Defensively, don't put Bowen on Nash. Put Bowen on Marion and neutralize him. Give Tony a shot vs Nash. I'm willing to bet that the increase in Nash's effectiveness will be less than the decrease in Marion's effectiveness.

4. Despite all that, if Tony can't get his jumper going, and Manu can't start making some shots, it's going to end in a Spurs loss. We need to get more from our starting guards, and that will force them to leave our role-players open.
from what i can tell, marion was neutralized. he only scored 5 points.

[Que Gee]

Barry?? I thought the Amber Alert I heard a couple hrs ago was for him?? :wtf

Exactly...what makes anyone think Pop is going to let Barry play? Pop has been waiting for an excuse all year to bench him in favor of Finley...and he finally got that chance when Barry went out for a few games with "tightness" in his back. He's been banned from playing ever since.

Kudos to Fin for stepping up his play....but its a fact.

[Solid D]

Exactly...what makes anyone think Pop is going to let Barry play? Pop has been waiting for an excuse all year to bench him in favor of Finley...and he finally got that chance when Barry went out for a few games with "tightness" in his back. He's been banned from playing ever since.

Barry played at the beginning of the 2nd and 4th quarters in Game 2 (15 minutes).


.



.

[J.T.]

Bill Simmons, if you are reading this thread, can I get you to autograph my Peyton Manning jersey? Thanks.

[PhxDog]

my prediction, they go small with Duncan and four perimeter guys, force Amare to guard Finley, Ginobili or Barry 20 feet from the basket, then pound the ball inside to Duncan
Suns are waiting for that. Pick Duncan off Amare, post Amare on a small with Duncan caught 25 feet from the basket; if that doesn't work, Boris Diaw comes off the bench, does the same thing.


I still think the Spurs will try to use deep double screens to shake Marion off of TP. The key to beating Kurt Thomas (aside from the usual crying for fouls) is forcing him to switch onto a guard.

[J.T.]

Maybe The Sports Guy is really ponky or something like that.

You have a point there. ponky claims to be a woman but we have yet to see her playboy spread, let alone a bravatar or myspace link. I mean, if I wanted to infiltrate SpursTalk to gain access to timvp`s hoops know how, I would pretend to be a chick too.

[T Park]

Exactly...what makes anyone think Pop is going to let Barry play? Pop has been waiting for an excuse all year to bench him in favor of Finley...and he finally got that chance when Barry went out for a few games with "tightness" in his back. He's been banned from playing ever since.

Kudos to Fin for stepping up his play....but its a fact.


Oh for christ sake.

Now Barry's injury was fake?

Banned from playing?


:lmao

[LavaLamp]

So what would you say are the chances that Pop would make any adjustment in the starting line-up at all? 100%, 75%, 0%?

[FromWayDowntown]

So what would you say are the chances that Pop would make any adjustment in the starting line-up at all? 100%, 75%, 0%?

At this point, I'd say it's only a small chance. Elson has played poorly enough to deserve demotion, but I'm not sure that there was anything in Game 2 that would have provoked that move as an adjustment to the Suns.

[ploto]

And here I thought Elson was the solution to never having to go small against a team like Phoenix. :lol

[Nbadan]

I'm with Cherylsteel, starting Bonner would be a nice adjustment, unfortunately, through the years I've learned that Pop doesn't get into 'creative adjustments'. If you didn't see it in the regular season, there's little chance you'll see it in the playoffs.

[itzsoweezee]

what's hilarious to me is that kurt thomas is some sort of defensive monster all of sudden just because duncan only scored 29 on his ass. thomas isn't the problem. the problem is tony didn't torch the suns for 30 again. if manu, tony, and finley are playing like shit, then the spurs have no shot. i'm hoping that won't happen again. but it doesn't really have anything to do with phoenix.

[ploto]

I'm with Cherylsteel, starting Bonner would be a nice adjustment, unfortunately, through the years I've learned that Pop doesn't get into 'creative adjustments'. If you didn't see it in the regular season, there's little chance you'll see it in the playoffs.
You want to start a guy who had played a grand total of 7 minutes in 7 play-off games? Just how many points do you want Phoenix to score?

[timvp]

You want to start a guy who had played a grand total of 7 minutes in 7 play-off games? Just how many points do you want Phoenix to score?

How many minutes did Rasho play in Games 5 and 6?

:stirpot:

[Nbadan]

You want to start a guy who had played a grand total of 7 minutes in 7 play-off games? Just how many points do you want Phoenix to score?

I'm willing to play a guy who could draw one of Phoenix's bigs out of the circle, maybe even hit a couple 3's, has the ability to rebound, and can legitimately guard Stout or Thomas for six minutes before Manu comes in.

[ShoogarBear]

adjustment

<------------------------

SJax ain't gettin it done.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

adjustment

<------------------------

SJax ain't gettin it done.
:fro Nice.

[timvp]

adjustment

<------------------------

SJax ain't gettin it done.

[Gerryatrics]

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/4LoBlackLeft.GIF
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/4LoBlackRight.GIF

[ploto]

I'm willing to play a guy who could draw one of Phoenix's bigs out of the circle, maybe even hit a couple 3's, has the ability to rebound, and can legitimately guard Stout or Thomas for six minutes before Manu comes in.
I'd rather have Horry do that.

[ploto]

How many minutes did Rasho play in Games 5 and 6?

He played a whole lot more in the playoffs than whom he was traded for-- Bonner and Ely COMBINED.

[T Park]

:lmao

Typical rasho excuse making

deflect from his suckiness to say BUT BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

[leemajors]

He played a whole lot more in the playoffs than whom he was traded for-- Bonner and Ely COMBINED.

toronto may have won if they went small earlier?

[T Park]

BTW, whats Bonner gonna do?

Allow Stoudamire to score easier than he already does?

Uh no thanks.

[Bruno]

Speaking of Rasho, it's quite funny to see Raps fans evolution when your read their forums.

At the start of the season, they were saying that Rasho was one of the best center of their franchise history.

During the regular season, they were saying that he was average but that he brings to this team a lot of intangibles. Speaking Italian was one of his best qualities. :rolleyes

Before the playoffs, they were saying that he will bring a lot of experience to their teams. I finded that quite ironical given that Rasho has a crappy playoff resume.

Now they are saying that he is way overpaid, that kris Humphries is better than him... The only difference with Spurs fans is that their fantasy trades are Rasho+Graham instead of Rasho+Scola. :lol

[Que Gee]

Barry played at the beginning of the 2nd and 4th quarters in Game 2 (15 minutes).


.



.

He played for like 3 minutes in the 2nd...and garbage time in the 4th. Did you watch, or look at the box score?

[Que Gee]

Oh for christ sake.

Now Barry's injury was fake?

Banned from playing?


:lmao

WTF are you talking about? I didn't say the injury was fake...My point is, when he was ready to play again...he didn't. Pop basically slashed his minutes to nothing after he returned.

[spurschick]

adjustment

<------------------------

SJax ain't gettin it done.

That is some scary shit.

[mavsfan1000]

BTW, whats Bonner gonna do?

Allow Stoudamire to score easier than he already does?

Uh no thanks.
Bonner guards Kurt Thomas.

[Tigole Bitties]

We need Fab Oberto to go 11/11 again

[Nashfan]

what's hilarious to me is that kurt thomas is some sort of defensive monster all of sudden just because duncan only scored 29 on his ass. thomas isn't the problem. the problem is tony didn't torch the suns for 30 again. if manu, tony, and finley are playing like shit, then the spurs have no shot. i'm hoping that won't happen again. but it doesn't really have anything to do with phoenix.


Actually, Duncan scored only eighteen points on Thomas. He got his other eleven points while Thomas was on the bench. :p:

[LavaLamp]

Actually, Duncan scored only eighteen points on Thomas. He got his other eleven points while Thomas was on the bench. :p:


The benefit of Thomas' defense on TD goes beyond TD's score. He was able to defend TD one-on-one... make TD work hard for each shot. So, the rest of the Suns could stay on their man. For example, Marion could concentrate on guarding TP... limiting his points and the overall scoring and effectiveness of the Spurs.

[ploto]

Speaking of Rasho, it's quite funny to see Raps fans evolution when your read their forums.

At the start of the season, they were saying that Rasho was one of the best center of their franchise history.

During the regular season, they were saying that he was average but that he brings to this team a lot of intangibles. Speaking Italian was one of his best qualities. :rolleyes

Before the playoffs, they were saying that he will bring a lot of experience to their teams. I finded that quite ironical given that Rasho has a crappy playoff resume.

Now they are saying that he is way overpaid, that kris Humphries is better than him... The only difference with Spurs fans is that their fantasy trades are Rasho+Graham instead of Rasho+Scola. :lol
Have no clue which Raptors fans you know:


Anyone who thinks we beat teams or will beat them next year like Orlando, Miami, Houston, New York or whatever team ends up with Oden without a guy like Rasho on the roster is kidding themselves. He didn't play a lot in the Jersey series but dont' let that fool you or cause you to forget just how critical he was to our oncourt bbiq and man defense on opposing team's centers. He may not be a Shaq himself but he's the only person in red resembling a defensively capable center right now.


I hope he's back. I like his game, and he would have been a killer in this series had 1) the offense used him more, 2) Bosh been able to score so we could afford to keep him on the floor.


Thats exactly it, Rasho could have been used more effectively and it could have easily opened up some shots for Parker, Bargnani, Mo, etc. Teams know the Raps won't go inside too often and when they do it won't be a "Pretty play" It would have been good to mix it up, send the ball down low a few times which could make the Nets defense tighten up there and give some of the perimeter shooters a more open look.

[FromWayDowntown]

The benefit of Thomas' defense on TD goes beyond TD's score. He was able to defend TD one-on-one... make TD work hard for each shot. So, the rest of the Suns could stay on their man. For example, Marion could concentrate on guarding TP... limiting his points and the overall scoring and effectiveness of the Spurs.

That's true. The rest of the Spurs made that task much easier by collectively deciding not to show up for Game 2; and Pop exacerbated the problem with his insistence on pounding the ball through Duncan (though after the 1st Quarter, I'm not sure he had many other choices).

It will be interesting to see if the Thomas adjustment is a paradigm shift in the series or if it was a one game difference-maker.

[LavaLamp]

It will be interesting to see if the Thomas adjustment is a paradigm shift in the series or if it was a one game difference-maker.


Yes, I agree.

If Pop is thinking along these lines, he prolly won't make any adjustments for Game 3 either. If so, things will be more or less constant and it will be easier to answer your question.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes, I agree.

If Pop is thinking along these lines, he prolly won't make any adjustments for Game 3 either. If so, things will be more or less constant and it will be easier to answer your question.

Oh, I think Pop will make an adjustment -- I'd be shocked if he decided to just pound it in to Duncan and to play stationary basketball with the guys who aren't feeding the post. I'd expect more ball movement -- particularly reversals -- more off-the-ball movement, and a greater commitment to attacking the rack out of guys who are able to do that.

The more the Spurs can move the Suns' defense by moving the ball, the better off they'll be, I think.

[ShoogarBear]

adjustment

<------------------------

SJax ain't gettin it done.Good idea. Why didn't I think of that?

[LavaLamp]

I see what you mean. Maybe no fundamental line-up changes from Pop but definitely changes in execution.

[td4mvp21]

He played a whole lot more in the playoffs than whom he was traded for-- Bonner and Ely COMBINED.

Rasho fucking sucks. He wasn't even playing in the NJ series by Game 6. Explain that to me, if he is such an effective player?

[Behrooz24]

I think it's time for Bruce to unleash his secret post up game on Nash

[Solid D]

Exactly...what makes anyone think Pop is going to let Barry play? Pop has been waiting for an excuse all year to bench him in favor of Finley...and he finally got that chance when Barry went out for a few games with "tightness" in his back. He's been banned from playing ever since.


Barry played at the beginning of the 2nd and 4th quarters in Game 2 (15 minutes).


He played for like 3 minutes in the 2nd...and garbage time in the 4th. Did you watch, or look at the box score?

Well, yes I watched the game and then watched the DVR replay but you said that Barry had been banned from playing since Barry sat out with "tightness". (see your above quote). I was just detailing what actually happened. Barry played 3 minutes at the start of the 2nd quarter and then he started the 4th quarter with the Spurs trailing by 7 and played the rest of the game.

http://www.nba.com/games/20070508/SASPHX/playbyplay.html

Perhaps you were exaggerating to make your point more convincing...but that's for you to admit and for me to suggest.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Que Gee, Solid D is easily one of the best/most knowledgeable posters on here, the guy always hits the nail on the head, so quit wasting your time arguing with him

[Man of Steel]

From the Spurs' perspective, I could see why you like this idea. A few drawbacks:

-Thomas, Marion, and Stoudemire would outrebound that lineup, and I don't think the Suns have lost a game this year when they outrebounded their opponent.
-Even if Stoudemire is taken out of the game, Diaw is excellent against a smaller defender. Finley, Ginobili, or Barry cannot guard him.
-Who would guard Kurt Thomas?
-It would leave with you a bench of: Horry, Bowen, Oberto, Elson. Not much offense coming from those four.

I'm more worried about this starting lineup:

Duncan-Finley-Ginobili-Bowen-Parker

That would force Amare to guard Finley, thus limiting his effectiveness on the glass. You'd still have Barry and Horry coming off the bench; assuming that one of those two hits their 3's, you'd still have some offense off the bench. Plus, if you take Bowen out of the starting lineup, you'd put a weaker defender on both Marion and Nash.


I enjoy reading your posts--well thoughout out, articulate, intelligent.

Props.

[Xylus]

I enjoy reading your posts--well thoughout out, articulate, intelligent.

Props.
Thanks man, I do what I can. :)

[Solid D]

When the Suns put Thomas and Stoudemire on the court at the same time, perhaps the Spurs can counter with:

Parker
Ginobili
Barry
Finley
Duncan

Yes, it's the dreaded small ball lineup, but this time it actually makes sense.

I thought I remembered seeing this lineup so I went back and checked. In the 4th quarter of Game 2 with about 9:45 remaining. The Spurs had the following lineup:

Parker
Ginobili
Barry
Finley
Duncan

The Suns went on a 7-0 run...Fin hit a 3...then Nash scored 2 FTs and finished 9-3 before Pop inserted Bowen for Gino. It continued downward from there, as we all remember.

The only thing was...Stoudamire was sitting and Kurt guarded Tim.

Oh well. Sometimes small-ball works and sometimes it doesn't.

[timvp]

Yeah, that lineup makes no sense if Stoudemire is sitting. Exploiting the matchup of Amare on a perimeter player is the main part.

Barry isn't playing well enough right now to warrant court time in any other situation.

[bobbyjoe]

Realistically, the best counter is not an adjustment but simply for Duncan to play even better and punish the Suns for 40-45 pts so they will be forced to abandon their single coverage with Kurt Thomas, double down, and get open looks again for Finley/Barry/Bowen etc.

I think the Marion vs. Parker adjustment was more problematic for SA. Duncan, being the great that he is, will likely find a way to solve Kurt Thomas. But will Parker be able to beat Marion like a drum like he's done in the past to Nash? If not, that could be a problem. Parker owning the Suns is a HUGE reason for the Spurs recent ownership of PHO.

[bobbyjoe]

Several excellent points in this thread. My 2 cents ...

1. Don't go small, at least not all the time. The problem was that with Kurt Thomas in the line-up, the Suns were at one point in the game outrebounding us (although we evened it at the end). If the Suns outrebound us, it's over. Playing 4-down, Tim going 1-on-1 vs Thomas, taking difficult bank shots from 12 feet, everybody else standing still = us getting hurt in rebounding. We need more screen and roll, more dribble penetration from Manu and Tony. Tim can be freed up to attack the boards.

2. Start Manu over Finley. If we want less 4-down and more guard penetration, Manu needs to be on early.

3. Defensively, don't put Bowen on Nash. Put Bowen on Marion and neutralize him. Give Tony a shot vs Nash. I'm willing to bet that the increase in Nash's effectiveness will be less than the decrease in Marion's effectiveness.

4. Despite all that, if Tony can't get his jumper going, and Manu can't start making some shots, it's going to end in a Spurs loss. We need to get more from our starting guards, and that will force them to leave our role-players open.

Marion has been neutralized even with Bowen not on him. He's been a non factor offensively in Games 1 and 2.

A guy like Shawn Marion is a "garbage man". He gets his buckets mainly in transition, offensive rebounding, and cuts to the hoop. Against a team like the Spurs who are so good on the defensive glass and at denying transition and penetration, a guy like Marion will just not be as effective, regardless of who is guarding him.

Putting Bowen on him would be a waste. Marion is not an iso wing player like Kobe, TMac, Iverson, etc who Bowen tends to disrupt and hassle.

Where Marion is hurting SA was in Game 2 with his D on parker, altering his shots and D'ing him up way better than Nash/Barbosa were.

Truth is, there is no great matchup for Bowen this series. I do agree that Parker may actually defend Nash better than Bowen.

[Solid D]

Game 3:

Ball movement was much better tonight and people didn't just stand around and watch Timmy shoot as much either.

D was great for 48....and they made more shots.

[Kori Ellis]

Marion has been neutralized even with Bowen not on him. He's been a non factor offensively in Games 1 and 2.

A guy like Shawn Marion is a "garbage man". He gets his buckets mainly in transition, offensive rebounding, and cuts to the hoop. Against a team like the Spurs who are so good on the defensive glass and at denying transition and penetration, a guy like Marion will just not be as effective, regardless of who is guarding him.

Putting Bowen on him would be a waste. Marion is not an iso wing player like Kobe, TMac, Iverson, etc who Bowen tends to disrupt and hassle.

Where Marion is hurting SA was in Game 2 with his D on parker, altering his shots and D'ing him up way better than Nash/Barbosa were.

Truth is, there is no great matchup for Bowen this series. I do agree that Parker may actually defend Nash better than Bowen.


Are you a new Suns fan? Bowen has been owning Marion when matched with him for years.